Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n
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A42764
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A late dialogue betwixt a civilian and a divine concerning the present condition of the Church of England in which, among other particulars, these following are especially spoken of ...
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Gillespie, George, 1613-1648.
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1644
(1644)
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Wing G753; ESTC R15751
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28,350
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44
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the performances to the promises Civilian For that I must tell you a story which I remember that I have read in Diodorus Siculus of Pharnabazus who after many slow preparations did at last lead forth Artaxerxes his Army against the Egyptians This man being asked by Iphiâ—rates why he was so nimble and ready in discourse and so slow in action why he did promise so much and performe so little answered because hee was master of his words but King of his actions meaning that actions were not so much in his power as words Divine All things are possible to him that believeth Doe not say with the sluggard There is a Lyon in the way If you would but doe your duty in going about the thing trust God with the event Now assuredly it is your duty to carry on the cause of Religion in the first and principall place which that I may the more presse upon you I will adde unto that which hath been said the notable example of Solomon 1. King 6.37 38. 7.1 In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the Lord laid in the moneth Zif and in the eleventh year in the moneth Bull which is the eight month was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof and according to all the fashion of it So was â—e seaven yeares in building it But Solomon was building his own house thirteen yeares Neither did he begin to build his own house till those seven yeares were ended and the house of the Lord fully perfected as appeareth clearly by 2. Chron. 8.1 and it came to passe at the end of twenty yeares wherein Solomon had built the house of the Lord and his owne house After all which as followeth in that place hee took care for store-Cities and fenced Cities for tribute and for his navy Tostatus and other Interpreters observe that Solomon looked first to the Lords matters and afterwards to his owne matters And Iosephus his observation is very much to be taken notice of The building of the Temple saith he which did continue for seven yeares being finished he went about the building of the Palace which in the thirteenth yeare he did scarcely finish for hee did not take so much care of this work as of the building of the Temple which though both large and more glorious then can be beleeved was through Gods assistance perfected in the foresaid space but the Palace though very farre inferiour to the magnificence of the Temple yet the materialls thereof not being so long before prepared and the house being to be builded for the King not for God it was the more slowly brought to perfection Civilian But I beseech you where is the fault with us and what could be more done then is done Divine O but my heart bleeds to think how it goeth for the present and how it is like to goe for the future with this distracted unsetled Church what fruits have wee yet reaped of our many petitions and indeavours for reformation of Religion of our solemn Covenant of the learned debates and long consultations of the Assembly of Divines Meethinks that which was said of Ephraim Hos. 13.13 agreeth too too much to England The sorrows of a travelling woman shall come upon him he is an â—nwise Son for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children I wish we may beware of that which some stories have observed to have been a most unhappy errour in the Emperour Frederick 3. who did so far connive at all things that when he was put in mind to look to this or that to prevent this or that danger hee was wont to answer as Faelix did the time of amending those things was not yet come hee would wait for a more convenient season which season hee could never see I am perswaded it lyeth heavy upon the spirits of thousands beside my selfe to know that every man doth now in Religion what seems good in his own eyes Errors and Schismes doe multiply in most places of the Kingdome there is a darknesse instead of divination and people are like sheep that have no shepheard and for ought I can see betwixt our forsaking of the old and finding of a new way wee are fallen in a wildernesse where there is no way O when shall I once see Religion setled Civilian When the warre shall be husht the State ordered and composed the Peace of the Kingdome socured it is not to bee expected till then that the Parliament can have much leisure to look to Church matters yet they will no doubt doe the best that may be for the interim Marvell not if I say more that the Parliament doth wisely in moving so slowly The slow and wary motions of Fabius did overcome Haâ—â—dbâ—â— whereas the heat and suddennesse of Minutius did indanger the Common-wealth Suddain courses I doubt shall not so much glad us in the beginning as grieve us in the end Divine I have read in some Polititians that though that of Augustus Festina lente doe well agree to calme and peaceable times yet Alexander his {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} nihil cunctando is fitter for times of trouble and warre and so they reconcile the one with the other Kekerm discurs de consilio quaest. 7. It is not safe to dispute long in the time of a present combustion nor to consult long about the cure when the patient lyes a dying But I desire to argue from the principles of my owne profession God did of old reprove his people because they said The time is not yet come the time that the Lords house should be builded This they said at that time when Iudah and Benjamin had powerfull adversaries when the land was not secured nor the walls of Ierusalem built They might have pleaded for themselves enough of this kind but all this could not excuse them at Gods hands he would have them build the Temple before the walls of Ierusalem And in this they harkened to the Prophets of God and did so Thereafter God taketh themselves to witnesse whether he had not blessed them from that very day when they laid the foundation of the Temple Nay I dare say it is not only good Divinity but good Policy that the Parliament should mind the things of Christ more then their own things for if as I suppose you will believe Matchiavell hee teacheth you that the setting up of the ordinances of Christ is the best way to make a Kingdome flourish in prosperity and peace I conclude therefore that procraâ—tinations in reforming Religion may prove very pernitious aswell to the Common-wealth as to the Church And for my part I must confesse I am afraid that the Parliament hath felt and shall yet feel Gods hand against them iâ— other things because of their doing the work of the Lord so negligently and at the best by halfes I wish the Honourable House of Commons may remember what they were about at that instant
causing their children to goe through the fâ—re as a sacrifice to their God Molech all these though murthers yeâ—â—re done for Conscience sake men being perswaded in their conscience that they are doing good service to God as it is said of those that killed the Apostles What say you to that case shall the punishment of those be persecution for the cause of Coâ—science 5. I cannot marvell enough that it should be heard from the moâ—th of any Christian that the Magistrate is to pun sh injuries done to the State but not injuries done to the Churâ—h that he is to punish those who destroy mens bodies but not those that destroy mens soules that whosoever will draw away people from the obedience of the Magistrate and of the law of the Land must not be suffered but they who will draw away people from the truth of the Gospel and from the wayes of God such as Hymeneus and Philetus who overthrow the faith of some and their word will eat as doth a canker must escape unpunished And so Christian Magistrates and States shall take up the maxime which Tacitus tells was holden by Tyberius Caesar Deorum injurias Diis cura esse but for their part they shall stand by as Gallio did and care for none of those things Be astonished at this O ye heavens Civilian But in the meane time I can tell you one thing that it is a mighty prejudice that lies in the mindes of many against the Prysbetery that tyranny and rigour doe accompany it And this now bringeth into my minde some other prejudices I have seene a Booke come from Oxford entituled An Answer by Letter to a worthy Gentleman who desired of a Divine some reasons by which it might appeare how inconsistent Presbyteriall Government is with Monarchy In which I finde many things which breed an Odium of that Government Among other things it tells me that this is one of the Articles of the Presbyterian faith No Minister preaching in Publike sedition or Treason or railing at King Councell the Prince Iudges is accountable or punishable by King Parliament Councell or any Indicature whatsoever But from all hee may appeale to the Sanhedrum or Consistory as the sole and proper competent Iudge And as if this were a small thing not to subject to the Magisteate they will have the Magistrate subject to them insomuch that they may excommunicate the Magistrate even the King himselfe if he obey them not That the Presbytery hindereth the liberty of trade and commerce disgraceth and desameth young women for conversing familiarly with men suffereth not Land-Lords to sue for their rents and the like That they bring all cases and causes under their cognition and judgement sub formalitate scandali under the notion of scandall and for the glory of God It tells also a number of Stories and practicall examples for confirmation of those particulars What say you to that Divine I have seen and read the book which surely was written by the speciall inspiration of the father of lies that the â—mple people who never yet sawe a Presbytery may be made afraid of it as of some hellish monster as the French Friars made the people beleeve that the Hugonots were ugly monsters with Swines faces and Asses eares But men of understanding will not be taken with such bold and shamelesse calumnies as come from the pen of that son of Belial I could name both the Author and the lying Records of a persecuting Prelate whence he borrowed his stories in which there are many known untruths and where there is any truth in the matters of fact which he relates there is such addition of his own Interpretations of mens actions such variation of circumstances and such concealing of the true grounds ends and circumstances of such actions as maketh them to appear quite another thing then they were And if his stories of the speeches actions or opinions of particular men were all true as they are not yet how doth that prove that Presbyteriall government is inconsistent with Monarchy Magistracie Laws Trading Peace c. This must be proved from the principles or necessarie concomitants of Presbyteriall government not from the actions or speeches of this or that private man especially they having so said or done not in any reference to Presbyteriall Government but occasionally in reference to such or such persons or purposes As now if I should rake up the dunghill of all the Treasons Conspiracies Oppressions Persecutions Adulteries Blasphemies Heresies Atheisticall opinions Superstitions Prophanities of such or such Prelates of which the Histories of former times and late experience are full and thence conclude that Episcopall government is inconsistent with Monarchy with the safety of the Kingdome with the liberty of the Subject with the peace of the Church with piety c. Surely that same Author would be ready to answer me that this must be proved from their received principles nor from particular practises Now that Ministers preaching Treason or committing any other trespasse punishable by the law of the land is not to be judged by the Civill Magistrate nor any Civill Court but may appeale from all these to the Ecclesiasticall Judicatory is none of our principles but it is a Popish and Prelaticall usurpation as appeareth by the Brittish Ecclesiasticall constitutions collected by Spelâ—â—an So that the Oxfordian missed his mark extreamly when he charged it upon Presbyterians who hold that Ministers are as much subject unto and as punishable by the Magistrate as any other of the Subjects And as Ministers are subject to every ordinance of man so we suppose the Christian Magistrate will not take it ill to be subject to all the ordinances of Jesus Christ I shall give you a short but clear account of our judgement concerning both these in the words of the second book of the Discipline of the Church of Scotland Chap. 1. As Ministers are subject to the judgement and punishment of the Magistrate in externall things if they offend so ought the Magistrates to submit themselves to the Discipline of the Church if they transgresse in matters of Câ—â—science and Religion And lest you should think this proper to the Classicall and Synodicall government M. Cotton will tell you it is just so in the Congregationall government of the keyes of the Kingdome of heaven pag. 53. As the Church saith he is subject to the sword of the Magistrate in things which concerne the Civill Peace so the Magistrate if Christian is subject to the keyes of the Church in matters which concerne the peace of his conscience and the Kingdom of heaven The latter cannot bee denied in thesi no more then the former and when it comes to the Hypothesis there is much to bee trusted to the prudence and discretion of Pastors and ruling Elders and when all comes to all the failing is more like to be in the defect then in the excesse But to say that a