John Trevor Then we desire they may be produced here and the Copies proved upon Oath and then we shall leave them upon your Lordships Table And my Lords we desire likewise at the same time to save another trouble there may be delivered in the Convictions of Reading Lane Knox and others Then Mr. Clare was Sworn and delivered in the Copies of the Records L. H. Stew. What Record is that Mr. Clare It is the Record of the Attainder of Coleman for high Treason L. H. Stew. Did you examine it Mr. Clare I did examine it L. H. Stew. Is it a true Copy Mr. Clare To the best of my understanding it is Here is likewise a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Ireland Pickering and Grove for high Treason L. H. Stew. Is there Judgment of Attainder entred upon Record Mr. Clare Yes my Lords there is Judgement entred Here is a Copy of the Indictment Conviction and Attainder of Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt Gavan and Turner for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Record of Attainder of Richard Langhorn for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Attainder of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmond-bury Godfrey Here is a Copy of the Conviction of Mr. Nathaniel Reading for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Bedlow to retract his Evidence against some of the Lords in the Tower and Sir Henry Tichbourn L. H. Stew. What is the Judgment there Mr. Clare The Judgment is entred upon it and 't is to pay 1000 l. Fine and to be put in and upon the Pillory in the Palace Yard Westminster for an hour with a Paper upon his head written in great Letters For endeavouring Subornation of Perjury Here is a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Tasbrough and Price for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Dugdale and Judgment entred upon it And here is a Copy of the Record of Conviction of Knox and Lane for Conspiring to asperse Dr. Oats and Mr. Bedlow Here is the Record of the Conviction of John Giles for barbarously attempting to Assassinate John Arnold Esq one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and the Judgment entred thereupon is To stand three times on the Pillory with a Paper on his Hat declaring his Offence to pay â—00 l. to the King to lie in Execution till the same be paid and find Sureties for his Good Behaviour during life L. H. Stew. Deliver them all in And if my Lords have occasion to doubt of any thing being left in the Court they will be there ready â—o be used All which were then delivered in Mr. Treby My Lords we humbly desire that the Record of Coleman may be read because there is more of special matter in it than any of the rest and your Lordships may dispose of the others as you please L. H. Stew. Read the Record of Coleman Then the Clerk read in Latin the Record of the Attainder of Edward Coleman formerly Executed for high Treason by him Committed in this horrid Popish Plot which in English is as followeth viz. Of the Term of Saint MICHAEL in the Thirtieth Year of the Reign of King CHARLES the Second c. Middlesex AT another time to wit on VVednesday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at VVestminster by the Oath of Twelve Jurors honest and lawful Men of the County aforesaid Sworn and Charged to Enquire for our said Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid it stands presented That Edward Coleman late of the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex Gentleman as a false Traitor against the most Illustrious most Serene and most Excellent Prince our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. and his Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in his Heart nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but by the instigation of the Devil moved and seduced the cordial Love and the true due and Natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King ought and of right are bound to bear utterly withdrawing and devising and with his whole Strength intending the Peace and common Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England practised and by Law established to overthrow and Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move stir up and procure and the cordial Love and true and due Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King should bear and of right are bound to bear utterly to withdraw blot out and extinguish and our said Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put the 29 th day of September in the 27 th year of the Reign of our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously proposed compassed imagined and intended Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move raise up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said Lord the King from his Kingly State Title Power and Government of His Realm of England utterly to deprive depose deject and disinherit and Him our said Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the same Realm and the sincere Religion of God in this Kingdom rightly and by the Laws of this Realm established for his Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingdom in its universal parts well instituted and ordained wholly to subvert and destroy and War against our said Lord the King within this Realm of England to levy and to accomplish and fulfil these his most wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid The same Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the said Twenty ninth day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh year of the Reign of our said Lord the King at the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously devised composed and writ two Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of Lewis the French King to desire procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveragin Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And afterwards to wit the said Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year
of the Reign of our said Lord now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly and traiterously devised composed and writ two other Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of the said French King to the intent that he the said Monsieur Le Chese should intreat procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveraign Lord the King from the aforesaid French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom of England then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And that the aforesaid Edward Coloman in further prosecution of his Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid afterwards to wit the same Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year of the Reign of our said now Lord the King the aforesaid several Letters from the said Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously did send into Parts beyond the Seas there to be delivered to the said Monsieur Le Chese And that the aforesaid Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the First Day of December in the Twenty Seventh Year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord CHARLES the Second now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid one Letter from the aforesaid Mounsieâ—r Lâ— Chesâ— in answer to one of the said Letters so by him the said Edward Coleman writ and to the said Monsieur Lâ— Cheâ—e to be sent first mentioned falsly subtilly and traiterously received and that Letter so in answer received the Day and Year last abovesaid at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously did inspect and read over and that the aforesaid Edward Coleman the Letter aforesaid so by him in answer received in his custody and possession the day and year last aforesaid at the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously detained concealed and kept By which said Letter the said Monsieur Le Chese the day and year last abovesaid at the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid signified and promised to the said Edward Coleman to obtain for him the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence And that the aforesaid Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the Tenth day of December in the abovesaid Twenty seventh Year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord Charles the Second now King of England c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously did relate and declare his traiterous Designs and Purposes aforesaid to one Monsieur Roâ—vigni then Envoy Extraordinary from the French King to our said most Serene King at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid residing to move and excite him the said Envoy Extraordinary with him the said Edward Coleman in his Treasons aforesaid to partake And the sooner to fulfil and compleat those his wicked Treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid he the said Edward Coleman afterward to wit December 19. in the abovesaid 27 th year of the Reign of our said Lord Charles the Second now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of S. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid advisedly maliciously subtilly and traiterously did devise compose and write three other Letters to be sent to one Sir William Throgmorton Knt. then a Subject of our now Lord the King of this Kingdom of England and residing in France in Parts beyond the Seas to sollicite him the aforesaid Monsieur Le Chese to procure obtain of the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence aforesaid And those Letters last mentioned afterwards to wit the day and year last abovesaid from the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid to the same Sir William Throgmorton in France aforesaid falsly and traiterously did send and cause to be delivered against the duty of his Allegiance and against the Peace of our said now Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and against the Form of the Statute in such case made and provided Wherefore 〈◊〉 was commanded the Sheriff of the County aforesaid that he should not omit c but that he should take him if c. to answer c And now to wit on Saturday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at Westminster came the aforesaid Edw. Coleman under the Custody of Will. Richardson Gent Keeper of the Gaol of our said Lord the King of Newgate by vertue of the King 's Writ of Habeas Corpus ad Subjiciend c. into whose custody before then for the cause aforesaid he was committed to the Bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the Marshal c. and presently of the Premisses to him above imposed being asked how he will thereof be acquitted saith that he is in no wise thereof guilty and thereof for good and evil doth put himself upon the Country Therefore let a Jury thereupon come before our Lord the King at Westminster on Wednesday next after fifteen days of St. Martin and who c. to recognize c. because c. the same day is given to the said Edward Coleman c. under the custody of the said Keeper of the Gaol of our said Lord the King of Newgate aforesaid in the mean time committed to be safely kept until c. At which Wednesday next after fifteen days of St Martin before our Lord the King at Westminster came the aforesaid Edward Coleman under custody of the aforesaid keeper of the Kings Gaol of Newgate aforesaid by vertue of a Writ of our Lord the King of Habeas Corpus ad Subjiciend c. to the Bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the aforesaid Keeper of the Kings Gaol of Newgate aforesaid And the Jurors of the Jury aforesaid by the Sheriff of the County aforesaid hereunto impannelled being called came who being chosen tryed and sworn to speak the Truth upon the Premisses say upon their Oaths that the aforesaid Edward Coleman is guilty of the High Treason aforesaid in the Indictment aforesaid specified in manner and Form as by the said Indictment above against him his supposed and that the aforesaid Edward Coleman at the time of perpetration of the High Treason aforesaid or at any time afterwards had no Goods Chattels Lands or Tenements to the knowledge of the Jurors aforesaid And the aforesaid Edward Coleman
had promised to keep it all as a secret But upon the Examination of Oates before Sir Edmondbury Godfrey as a Justice of Peace he was afraid he would come in an Evidence against him and had shewn himself a little too eager which made Coleman afraid he would witness against him And the Duke of York did send word back again That if he would take care not to reveal but conceal it he should not come in against him or to that purpose And the next news we heard was the Letter that he was dispatched Mr. Foley I desire he may give an account what assistance the Pope gave for the carrying on of this Design Mr. Dugdale I heard the Pope had out of his Revenue promised several sums of money for the carrying on this Plot and particularly that he would assist the poor distressed Irish with both Men and Money and there should not be any thing wanting on his part Lord High Stew. Have you done with him Gentlemen Mr. Treby Yes I think we have done with him as to the general Lord Stafford I desire to ask him then what sums of money did the Pope contribute to it L. H. Steward What sums of money did the Pope contribute to this Design Mr. Dugdale I have heard of several sums in general that he was to contribute for the carrying on of the Plot. L. H. Steward Did you hear of any sum certain Mr. Dugdale I do not know but I think I have heard sometimes of ten thousand Pound or some such sum I have been told by a Servant that formerly belonged to my Lord Stafford That the Popes daily income was twenty four thousand Pounds a day and that if he would do as he had promised he was able to do very much L. H. Steward They told you so you do not know it otherwise Mr. Treby We have done then with him We call Mr. Prance next Who was sworn Mr. Treby My Lords I desire Mr Prance would give us an account of what discourse he had with one Mr. Singleton a Priest and when Mr. Prance I went to one Mr. Singleton a Priest at one Hall's in the year 78. and he told me That he did not fear but in a little time to be a Priest in a Parish Church and that he would make no more to stab Forty Parliament Men than to eat his Dinner vhich he was at at that very time L. H. Steward Where was that Mr. Prance At one Hall's a Cook in Ivy-lane L. H. Steward Will you ask him any Questions my Lord Lord Stafford No my Lord Mr. Treby Then call Dr. Oates Who was sworn L. H. Stew. Do you examine Mr. Oates upon the general Plot or the particular Mr. Treby Only to the General now and we desire him to take notice he is so to speak and to confine himself to that at present Dr. Oates My Lords in the year 76 I was admitted into the service of the Duke of Norfolk as Chaplain in his House and there I came acquainted with one Bing that was a Priest in the House And being acquainted with him there came one Kemish very often to visit him and one Singleton who told me that I should find that the Protestant Religion was upon its last legs and that it would become me and all men of my Coat for then I professed my self a Minister of the Church of England to hasten betimes home to the Church of Rome My Lords having had strong suspicions for some years before of the great and apparent growth of Popery to satisfie my curiosity I pretended some doubts in my mind My Lords after some time had passed over I had some conversation with these men I found they were not men for my turn because being regular men they were not men that had any great degree of Learning Afterwards my Lords I met with one Hutchinson I found him a Saint-like man or one that was Religious for Religion sake and him I found not for my turn neither For my Lords my design was to deal with their Casuists that is those of the Society After that I had obtained the favour from him to have some Conference with one of the Society I found they were the men for my turn because I found they were the cunning politick men and the men that could satisfie me After that I had some Discourse with them I pretended to be convinced by their Arguments And my Lords after that I had thus acknowledged my Conviction I desired to be reconciled and accordingly on Ash-wednesday 1676. I was reconciled And soon after my Reconciliation Strange who was then Provincial of the Society did tell me much after this way Mr. Oats you are now reconciled to the Church of Rome and you must lay down your Ministry for your Ordination is invalid and you must look upon your self as no more than a Layman Pray says he now what course do you think to take I told him I did desire to be one of their Society and to be admitted a Novice into their Order He said it was a very honest request and a very honest desire and he said he would take some time to consider of it and he would take till the Saturday following Saturday following I was sent for by one Fenwick I lodged then in Barbican and Fenwick came to me and told me the Fathers were met at Wild-House and would speak with me And he also told me they had granted my request and I should be admitted After I was admitted they told me I had some years upon me and I could not undergo those burdens they put upon younger men But what did I think of travelling and going beyond Sea to do their business I did agree to it and in April 77. I went aboard one Luke Roch Master of the Bilboa Merchant bound for Bilboa having their Letters of Recommendation After I arrived there which was on a Sunday in May or June I can't tell which I went the Friday following for Validolid in Castile and I got thither the Tuesday following but by the way I opened certain Letters wherein was made mention of a disturbance designed in Scotland And the Letters did express what hopes they had to effect their Design in England â—on the carrying on as they worded it the Catholick Cause and for the advancement of the interest of the Bishop of Rome My Lords after I had arrived at Validolid there were Letters there got before me which were dated in May wherein was expressed news That the King was dispatched which was the cause of great joy to the Fathers there and afterwards Letters dated in May too but towards the latter end of May came That they were mistaken and desired the Fathers there to stifle that news My Lords there came Letters dated in June wherein they did give an account That they had procured one Beddingfield to be Confessor to the Duke of York which Beddingfield by his interest might prevail much with the Duke in
good Proof of his being a Papist Besides Dugdale swears my Lord did then complain That they had not the free Exercise of their Religion that they could not say their Prayers openly What were they Not the Prayers of Protestants not those contained in the Liturgy of our Church He could not complain of any restraint as to them but complain he did that they had not the free Exercise of their Religion but he did hope if things succeeded well in a short time it would be otherwise This is particularly sworn by Dugdale My Lords His Lordship was very much unsatisfied That Dugdale was not particular in point of time he did talk of some matters to be in August or September but could not fix to any day But your Lordships will remember that as to one particular and which mainly concerns his Lordship to answer he comes to a day or within a day for he swears positively That upon the 20. or 21. of September he was sent for to my Lords Chamber the Servants were put out that there my Lord did propose to him in express terms the matter of Killing of the King He would have him be an Actor in it and he offered him a Reward of 500 l. to perform it For this which is the most material part of his particular Evidence against my Lord he is certain 't was either on the 20. or 21. of September and he tells your Lordships how he comes to remember the time by a good Token by the Foot-Race that was then to be run and I do not perceive that my Lord does deny but rather acknowledge that Dugdale was in his Chamber at that time 'T is true he does deny some other Circumstances which I shall answer anon And here I do think Dugdale undertakes to swear to that which will amount to an Overt Act and a damnable one too that is the offering 500 l. to kill the King But Dugdale it seems was not willing to depend upon the promises of my Lord for so much money his Lordship had not that credit with him he repairs to Evers and desires to be satisfied from him whether he might rely upon my Lord for so much Money Evers told him he might be sure to have the Money and that there was enough in Harcourts and other mens hands for the carrying on that blessed design and that he should have it thence I might my Lords remember to your Lordships how Dugdale does particularly swear concerning another discourse he had afterwards with my Lord. That my Lord complained of the great losses that had been sustained by him and his friends for the King how in particular my Lord Aston's Father had lost 30000 l. and what resentments my Lord had of it he said that places of profit were rather bestowed upon those that disserted the King and were Rebels and Traytors than on those that did him faithful Service and what does he conclude from thence He is very angry with the King and does say that next to the Cause of Religion which was the strongest motive with him to take away the Kings Life the Kings ingratitude to his Loyal Subjects was that which did most offend him I shall not trouble your Lordships with other particular matters which were to serve as incouragements to the Design as that there was to be a Pardon from the Pope that my Lord did write a Letter to Evers which was shewn to Dugdale wherein he says That things did succeed very well abroad and he hoped they would do so at home I shall only observe that Dugdales Evidence as to my Lords damnable Design of killing the King is positive and full And if this be to be believed as I hope we shall shew there is no reason but it should be then here surely is one sufficient Witness to prove my Lord guilty of the Highest Treason My Lords The next Witness we called for against my Lord was Dr. Oats and I think Dr. Oats is not only positive but he is positive in that which most certainly will amount to an Overt Act nay I think to more Overt Acts than one The Doctor tells your Lordships That having been at St. Omers and in Spain he saw several Letters that were subscribed Stafford he did not then know my Lords Hand but he saw the Letters and he tells you the effect of those Letters And I remember in one of them there is this Expression That my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar does give Assurance to the Fathers that he is very zealous and ready to do them service Doctor Oats tells you my Lords That afterwards coming into England my Lord Stafford did write a Letter I think it was to his Son but sure I am the Doctor said he had the carriage of it to the Post-house that he saw my Lord write it he read the superscription and he swears that the Hand which writ that Letter was the Hand which subscribed to all the former And so then joyning the one to the other it amounts to as good an Evidence as if he had known my Lords Hand from the beginning But that which comes home to my Lord is that which Doctor Oats saw and that which Doctor Oats heard and they are these particulars which I now mention First he saw a Commission directed to my Lord to be Pay-master of the Army he saw it delivered to my Lords own Hand and my Lord accepted it Doctor Oats read the Commission and he tells you by whom it was signed Johannes Paulus Oliva a person substituted by the Pope to issue out Commissions he tells you the Contents of it and of this he swears he was an Ocular Witness He tells you of another Matter he heard my Lord say as considerable as the other That when my Lord had received the Commission my Lord declared that he was to go down into Staffordshire and Lancashire where he was to put things in readiness What were those things He had now a Commission by vertue of which in Lancashire and the other places hâ— was to prepare and gather Monies for that Army which he was to pay So much Doctor Oats doth swear he heard from my Lords own mouth But there is one thing further which I had almost forgot He doth swear that my Lord was privy to and approved of the Matter of killing of the King For he doth swear he did hear my Lord say at that time He hoped before he returned Honest William who was Grove that was executed for this Attempt would have done the business And what that business was every man who hath heard of Groves Treason must needs understand There is but one thing more that I remember of Doctor Oats his Testimony Your Lordships that have a better advantage to write than we who are crowded together may have taken Notes of more but this one thing I do observe Doctor Oats doth expresly swear that my Lord bore a very ill mind towards his Majesty for my Lord did in
and some years since and was the great Confident of the said Lady and the said Remige was for the most part taken with her Ladyship into Morgan's Chamber when the Consults were held there where he hath often seen Father Gavan Father Towers Father Evans Father Sylliard Roberts White Owens Barry and the Earl of Castlemain and other Priests and Jesuits meet and shut themselves up in the said Morgan's Chamber sometimes for an Hour sometimes for two Hours more or less and at the breaking up of the said Consults have broke out into an extasie of joy saying They hoped ere long the Catholick Religion would be established in England and that they did not doubt to bring about their Design notwithstanding they had met with one great Disappointment which was the Peace struck up with Holland saying that if the Army at Blackheath had been sent into Holland to assist the French King when he was with his Army near Amsterdam Holland had certainly been conquered and then the French King would have been able to assist us with an Army to establish Religion in England Which expressions with many others importing their confidence to set up the Romish Religion they frequently communicated to this Informant And the said Morgan went several times into Ireland to London and several other parts of England as this Informant hath just cause to believe to give and take measures for carrying on the Design and the said Remige and her Husband having first clandestinely sold their Estate and fled into France about May or June last for fear of discovery This Informant by many Circumstances being assured that the said Mrs. Remige was privy to all or most of the Transactions of the Plot. And he saith that about May last was two Years he was present at Mass with the Lord Powis in Verestreet when the Earl of Castlemain did say Mass in his Priestly Habit after the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of Rome EDWARD TVRBERVILL Sworn the 9th day of November 1680. before Thomas Stringer William Poulteny Edmund Warcupp L. H. Steward My Lord this Affidavit is to the purpose to which you call for it this does say that your Lordship did go by the way of Calice it does absolutely so L. Stafford Now whether he be forsworn or no your Lordships may judge by these three Witnesses Mr. Turbervill My Lords that which I grounded my belief of his going to Calice upon and so consequently that Affidavit was the Letter which I received from my Lord which I have looked for but cannot find L. H. Stew. This Affidavit does not say you went from Calice to England but you went with Count Gramont to Calice L. Stafford I conceive my Lords this Affidavit and his Narrative are word for word the same only that Amendment of 72 for 73 upon which I observed before he was forsworn once I cannot tell what to say if this man can be believed And Count Gramont came by Diep too but besides my Lords in this Affidavit he does not say he believed so by the Letter tho' now he speaks of one L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford was Count Gramont in your Lordships company when you came to Diep L. Stafford No my Lords he was in England before me a month but my Lords I cannot deny but I had one recommended to come over with me that pretended himself to be a French Count but the man was as errant a Rascal as this that swears against me and that was one that called himself Count de Brienne whom all the world knows to be a Cheat. L. H. Stew. Call your other Witnesses my Lord. L. Stafford Where is John Minhead Who stood up L. H. Steward Who do you belong to Minhead My Lord Powis L. Stafford My Lords Mr. Turbervill he says by the persuasion of my Lady Powis went to Doway and he staid in the Monastery three weeks and not liking that life he came away this may be true I say nothing to it But that which I take Exception at is this He says for this the Earl of Powis and his Lady when he came back from Doway were very angry with him and so were all his Relations and he stood in fear of his life from them Surely when Mr. Turbervill knew he was in such danger he would not have come near them Pray ask this Gentleman whether he was at my Lord Powis's and how he was entertained L. H. Steward Do you know Turbervill Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Have you seen him at my Lord Powis's Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew How was he received there Minhead Very well my Lords L. H. Stew When was that Minhead In the year 75. L. H. Stew. Was that before or after he came back to England Minhead It was after he came from Doway L. H. Stew. What Country man are you Minhead A French man L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Minhead A Roman Catholick L. Stafford Pray ask him whether he lay in my Lords house Minhead Yes my Lords he lay with me in my lodgings L. Stafford And yet he says he was afraid of his life L. H. Stew. Did my Lord know he lay there Minhead Yes he must needs because he came through the Room to go to Bed L. Stafford May it please your Lordships he says he was threatned that he should have his Brother disinherit him and which afterwards was compassed Now I shall shew that this is impossible for he had no Inheritance to lose nor was to have none for his Brother who is elder than he this man being by a second Venter hath Children as I shall make appear by another of his Brothers who is here And this not being settled upon him who was by the second Venter could not come to him but for want of Issue of that Brother must go to the Uncle So he swears he was disinherited of an Estate when he was to have no Estate nor could have Call Mr. John Turbervill who appeared My Lords I desire you to ask him whether he knew that upon his coming back to England he was ill used Mr. J. Turbervill I never knew any unkindness from my elder Brother to him L. H. Stew. Are you his Brother Mr. J. Turbervill Yes my Lords by the Father not by the Mother L. H. Stew. Well what can you say Mr. J. Turbervill I never heard any thing when he returned from Doway that he was ill received by my Lord Powis but in a few days after my Brother and Sister came to Town we went to Bloomesbury and there we met together and my Brother complaining that he was unfortunate in that he had undertaken what he could not perform in going beyond Sea and now wanted a Livelihood my eldest Brother told him he had done as far as his Ability was he could do no more it was his own Choice and he had no more to say L. Staff Had he any money from his Relations Mr. J. Turbervill He
these be two such Witnesses as the Law requires I pray then my Lords consider the consequence of that doubt A man shall talk with twenty Persons about a Design to kill the King in one and the same Room one after another by taking them into a Corner singly and if ten or all twenty come to prove it here is but one Witness to each Discourse This would be a matter of dangerous Consequence but I hope will remain no manner of doubt with you nor is it fit to be argued As to the Hiring of Witnesses to Swear I think that can be no point of Law till it be so proved in Fact Doth his Lordship think that when His Majesty out of His Grace and Bounty allows a Maintainance to His Witnesses that that is an Objection to their Testimony Doth not every man allow his Witnesses a a Maintainance and yet it never was thought a thing to take away their Evidence It may be every one doth not give so large an allowance as the King because his Dignity is not so great But can it be an Objection to the House of Commons Have we that are the Prosecutors maintained them If His Majesty have been bountiful to His Witnesses what is that to this Cause of the Commons If my Lord can prove any thing of Bribery in us as he has proved for us against himself it may be an Objection But till that Fact be proved I hope there is no ground for a Question in Law and if there be no doubt in Law I hope there will be no need of Counsel Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford What are the Points you would have Counsel too Lord Stafford To all of them my Lords Lord High Steward Would you have Counsel to the first Point to argue what the Law of Parliaments is concerning the continuance of Impeachments from Parliament to Parliament Lord Stafford My Lords if you will declare the Law to be as these Gentlemen say I must acquiesce Lord High Steward Pardon me my Lord I do not declare the Law but ask you whether you would have Counsel to argue that Point Lord Stafford My Lords I do say there is no Example of it I know there have been Impeachments but no Examples of Impeachments continued from Parliament to Parliament Lord High Steward Then in the next place for I shall propose your Objections to their Lordships by and by and desire their Judgment in them Do you desire to argue by your Counsel that every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses Lord Stafford I do my Lords I desire my Counsel may be heard to all the Points I mentioned to your Lordships Lord High Steward Have you Counsel ready to speak to these Points now Lord Stafford Yes my Lords Lord High Steward Are they prepared to speak to them now Lord Stafford They are my Lords Lord High Steward If they be so what hurt will there be in hearing of them Sir William Jones My Lords Whether you will hear an Argument from Counsel about the Law of Parliaments I hope you will please well to consider Sir Fran. VVinnington My Lords We in the House of Commons do never suffer any Counsel to tell us what is the Course of our House and the Law of Parliaments if your Lordships think fit to allow it 't is in your own power but we who are intrusted with the Management of this Cause by the House of Commons have no direction to consent to such a thing Lord High Steward We will hear Counsel to save time upon that Point whether in proof of a Treason for killing the King every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses Sir William Jones If your Lordships make a doubt of it Sir Fran. Winnington And if the Prisoner desire it Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords We shall not oppose it but I shall wonder if any Counsel do maintain it Lord High Steward Are your Counsel ready to speak to that Point Lord Stafford Here they are my Lords Mr. Wallop of the Middle-Temple Mr. Saunders of the same Society and Mr. Hunt of Gray's Inn appeared by the Prisoner at the Bar as his Counsel Mr. Wallop May it please your Lordships we are here commanded by your Lordships to Attend that if any matter of Law do arise upon a Case proved agreed and judged by your Lordships debateable then in due time we are to conform our selves to your Lordships command and argue those Points for my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar. But if your Lordships do think that the Points urged by my Lord are not debateable in Law I have so high an Opinion of your Lordships Judgment and such a mean opinion of my own Talent that I shall not undertake to Argue Extempore in this great Assembly in a Cause of so high a Nature Lord High Steward Look you Sir you are of my Lords Counsel Mr. Wallop I am my Lords and by the Order of your Lordships do attend here Lord High Steward If you think it an arguable Point you will have the Judgment of my Lords afterwards Will you argue it now Mr. VVallop My Lords I always thought if a Point be stirred in any Court and thought disputable it should be stated and agreed before it be argued Lord High Steward You are to argue for my Lord and to know the Judgment of the Court afterwards would you know our Opinions before hand Mr. VVallop We would know what it is we are to argue if your Lordships please Lord High Steward Why if you are provided for it you are to maintain that by Law every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses if you are prepared speak to it and my Lords will hear you Mr. VVallop It is true my Lords there have been some publick Resolutions concerning that Point therefore I shall be the warier what I say in that But my Lords it is a matter that has been thought of great import one way or other but I do profess at this time I am not able to undertake a Solemn Argument upon that Point Lord Stafford My Lords I am so far from delaying this Cause that I desire it may be argued now Lord High Steward Then you are not ready to speak to it Mr. VVallop No my Lords I am not for my own part at present for it is impossible we should foresee what would be the Point and to apply our selves to study an unforeseen Case before it be agreed stated and judged worthy of Argument cannot be expected from us I have always observed it in the King's-Bench If the Prisoner urge any thing and the Court think it debateable they first agree and state the Case then Assign Counsel whom they do not urge to deliver an Opinion presently but give them time to prepare for it Lord High Steward Mr. VVallop it is not believed that this Point is moved but by your Advice that are of my Lord's Council and you should be ready to maintain the Advice you give