appoynted and to punish those which fayle in their office accordingly As for the making of the orders cerimonyes of the church they doe where there is a constituted and ordered church pertayne vnto the mynisters of the church and to the ecclesiastycall gouernoures and that as they meddle not with the making of cyuill lawes and lawes for the common wealth so the cyuill magistrate hath not to ordayne cerimonies pertayning to the churche But if those to whome that doth appertayne make any orders not meete the magistrate may and ought to hynder them and dryue them to better for so much as the ciuill magistrate hath thys charge to see that nothing be done agaynst the glory of God in hys domynion Thys distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the. 2. booke of the Chronicles he shall see that there were a number appoynted for the matters of the Lord which were priestes and leuites and there were other also appoynted for the Kinges affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongst which were the Leuites which being more in number then coulde be applyed to the vse of the churche were set ouer cyuill causes being therefore most fit for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the politicke lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please hym that the making of orders and geuing of iudgementes in cyuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and church matters pertayned vnto dyuers persons which distinction the wryter to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth that the Priest was ordayned in things pertayning to God. Thys might Maister Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble emperor * Constantine attributeth to the fathers of the Nicene councell and to the Ecclesiasticall persons there gathered which he doth also permit the Byshops Elders and Deacans of churches to doe eyther by correcting or adding or making new if neede be And by the contynuall practise of the church in the tyme of christian Emperors which alwayes permitted vnto the mynisters assembled in councelles as well the determynation of controuersies which rose as the making or the abolyshing of needefull or hurtfull cerimonies as the case required Also by the Emperoures epistle in the first action of the councell of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperor it appeareth that it was the manner of the Emperoures to confirme the ordinaunces which were made by the mynisters and to see them kept The practise of thys he myght haue also most playnly seene in Ambrose who wold by no meanes suffer that the causes of the churches should be debated in the Princes consistory or court but would haue them handled in the church by those that had the gouernment of the church and therefore excuseth hym selfe to the emperour Valentinian for that being conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill court he came not And by whome can the matters and orders of the church bee better ordayned then by the mynisters of the church And if that be a good reason of Maister Doctor in the fortie and seuenth page that the Byshoppes ought therefore to ordayne mynisters because they are best hable to iudge of the learning and habylitie of those which are the fyttest it is also as good reason that therefore the mynisters and gouernours of the church should appoynt and decree of such ceremonyes and orders as pertayne to the church for because it is to be supposed that they can best iudge of those matters bestowing theyr studyes that wayes and further best vnderstanding the estate of the church about the which they are wholy occupyed And this is not Maister Doctor to shake handes with the papistes For the papistes would exempt their priestes from the subiection and from the punyshment of the cyuill magistrate which we doe not And the papistes would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determyne that that forthwith should be holden for good and the Prince should be forthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that bee it good or euill without further inquiry but wee say that if there bee no lawfull mynistery to set good orders as in rumous decayes and ouerthrowes of relygion that then the Prince ought to doe it and if when there is a lawfull mynistery it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order that the Prince ought to stay that order and not to suffer it but to driue them to that which is lawfull and meete And if thys be to shake handes with the papistes then Maister Doctor is to blame which hath taught vs once or twise before that the appoynting of ceremonies of the church belongeth vnto the church And yet I know that there is one or two of the later wryters that thinke otherwise but as I take no aduauntage of their authoritie which thinke as I doe so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise But for so much as we haue M. Doctor yet of thys iudgement that the church ceremonies shoulde bee ordayned by the church I will trauaile no further in thys matter consydering that the practise of thys church commonly is to referre these matters vnto the ecclesiasticall persons only thys is the difference that where it is done now of one or a few wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe The other poynt is in the hundreth thirty and eyght page where hee most vntruely and slaunderously chargeth the authors of the Admonition and maketh wonderfull outcryes of them as though they should deny that there hadde beene any reformation at all sythens the tyme that the Queenes maiestye began to raigne manyfestly contrary not onely to theyr meaning but also to theyr very words which appeareth in that they moue to a thorough reformation to contende or to labour to perfection denying only that the reformation which hath bene made in her maiesties dayes is thorough and perfect We confesse willingly that next vnto the Lorde God euery one of vs is most deepely bounde vnto her maiesty whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to delyuer his church heere out of the spirituall Egipt of popery and the common wealth also and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of straungers whereunto it was so neare Thys I say we willingly confesse before men and do in our prayers dayly geue most humble thankes to God therefore And by thys humble sute and earnest desire whiche wee haue for further reformation we are so far from vnthankfulnes vnto her maiesty that we thereby desire the heape of her felicitie the establishment of her royal throne amongst vs which then shall be most sure and vnremoued when our sauiour Christ sytteth wholy and fully not only in hys chayre to teach but also in hys throne to rule not alone in the heartes of euery one by hys spirite but also generally and in the visible gouernment of hys church by
him that inueigheth against any pastor without good cause beare the punishment as for inueighing against heaping of liuing vpon liuing and ioyning steeple to steeple and non residence and suche ambition and tiranny as beareth the sway in diuers Ecclesiasticall persons if the price of the pacification be the offending of the Lorde it is better you be displeased then God be offended To the. 16. VVe stay our selues wythin the bonds of the word of God we profes our selues to be of the nombre of those whych should * grow in knowledge as we do in age and whych labor that the image of God may be daily renewed in vs not only in holynes of life but also in * knowledge of the truthe of God and yet I know no question moued which hath not ben many yeares before in other churches reformed holden as truthe and therefore practised and in our churche also haue bene some yeares debated To the. 17. If we defende no falshoode or inconuenient thing we can not be counted stubborne or wilfull whereof we offer to be tried by the indifferent reader For waiwardnes and inhumanitie we thincke it a fault as we esteme godly societie and affabilitie to be commendable and what is our behauior herein we likewise referre to their iudgementes wyth whome we are conuersant and haue to doe wyth being misseiudged and vntruly condemned of you we iudge nor condemne no man their vices we condemne so farre forth as the listes of our vocation doe permit vs. To the. 18. We allowe of common weales as without which the church can not long continue we speake not against ciuill gouernment nor yet against ecclesiastical further then the same is an enemy to the gouernment that God hath instituted To the. 19. If we geue honor and reuerence to none let vs not only haue none again but let vs be had as those that are vnworthy to liue amongst men I feare there be of those whych are your fauourers Ecclesiasticall persons that if they shuld meete wyth my Lord Mayor of London would straine curtesye whether he or they should put of the cap first We geue the titles of Maiestie to the Queene our soueraigne of grace to Duke and Duches of honor to those whych are in honoure and so to euery one according to their estate If we misse it is not because we are not willing but because we knowe not alwayes what pertaineth vnto them and then our faulte is pardonable For answearing churlishly it is answeared before in the seuenth Article To the. 20. VVith acknowledging of our manifold wants and ignorances we dout not also to take vpon vs with thanks geuing that knowledge which God hath geuen to euery of vs according to the measure of fayth we seke not to please oure selues but the Lord and our brethren yea all men in that whych is good VVe reuerence other mens gifts so as we thinke the contempt of them redoundeth to the giuer Therfore although the common infection be in vs yet we hope pride doth not * raigne in our mortall bodyes To the. 21. VVe hold that it is no ministers part to chuse his owne place where he will preach but to tary vntill he be chosen of others Likewyse that he insinuate not hym selfe but abide a lawfull calling and therfore thys can not agree to vs but to those rather whych content themselues wyth a rouing and wandering mynistery and defend the ministers owne presenting and offering him selfe or euer he be called To the. 22. and. 23. I answer as to the fifthe and touching the. 23. refer the reader to a further answer in that place where occasion is offered to speake of it againe To the. 24. So farre forth as we may for the infirmities wherwyth we are enclosed we endeuor to adorne the doctrine of the gospell whych we profes we seeke not the admiration of men if God do geue that we haue honest report we thyncke we ought to maintaine that to the glory of God and aduancement of the gospel what is our straightnes of life any other then is required in all christians we bryng in I am sure no Monachisme or Anchorisme we eate and drynke as other men we liue as other men we are apparelled as other men we lye as other men we vse those honest recreations that other men doe and we thincke there is no good thing or commodity of life in the world but that in sobriety we may be partakers of so farre as our degree and calling will suffer vs as God maketh vs able to haue it For the hipocrisy that you so often charge vs wyth the day shall try it If any man ioyne wych vs with minde to contende it is against our will notwithstanding we knowe none and what great stirrers and contenders they be whych fauor thys cause let all men iudge To the two next sections Do you thincke to mocke the worlde so that when you haue so vniustly so hainously accused you may wipe your mouth and say as you did before that you will not accuse any and as now that you will leaue the application Is not this to accuse to say that the authors of the Admonition doe almost plainly professe Anabaptisme is not thys to apply to say that they agree wyth the Anabaptists in all the fornamed practises and qualities You would faine strike vs but you would do it in the night when no man should see you and yet if you haue to do against Anabaptists you neede not feare to proclaime your warre against them You haue a glorious cause you shall haue a certaine victorye I dare promisse you that you shall haue all the estates and orders of this realme to clappe their handes and sing your epinicia and triumphant songs But that you would conuey your sting so priuely and hissingly as the Adder doth it carieth with it a suspition of an euill conscience and of a worse cause then you make the world beleeue you haue From moreouer c. vnto To conclude Now you cary vs from the Anabaptists in Europe vnto the Donatists in Affrike you wil paint vs with their coloures but you want the oyle of truth or likelyhode of truth to cause your colours to cleaue to endure The Lord be praised that your breath although it be very ranke yet it is not so strong that it is able either to turn vs or chaunge vs into what formes it pleaseth you I shal desire the reader to loke Theod. lib. 4. De fabulis haereticorum and Augustine ad quod vult Deum and in his first and second bokes against Petilians letters where he shall finde of these heretikes that by comparing thē wyth these to whom M. Doctor likeneth thē the smoke of this accusation might the better appeare for these slanders are not worth the answering To this diuision from the churches and to your supposed conuenticles I haue answeared They taught that there were no true churches but in Affrica
establishment of the common wealth must be pretēded What haue you forgotten that whych you sayd in the beginning that you accused none but suspected certaine woulde you haue the sword to be drawne vpon your suspitions But now you see that they whō you haue accused are nothing like eyther Anabaptists Donatists or Papists and your selfe most vnlike vnto hym that you profes to be and now you see that all your slaunders are quēched by the innocencye as it were by water of those men whom you so hainously accuse you are to be put in minde of the law of God whych decreeth that he whych accuseth an other if he proue it not shall suffer the punishment which he should haue done agaynst whom the accusation had ben iustly proued The Romaines did nourish in Capitolio certain dogs and geese whych by their barking and gagling should geue warning in the night of theeues that entred in but if they cried in the day time when there was no suspition and when men came in to worship then their legs were broken because they cried when there was no cause If therfore he haue accused iustly then he is worthy to haue hys diet allowed hym of the commō charges But if otherwise we desire not that his legs may be broken as theirs were But thys we humbly craue that if thys oure answer doe not sufficiently purge vs that we may be sifted and searched nearer that if we nourishe any suche monstrnous opinions as are surmised we may haue the reward of them if we do not then at the least we may haue the good abearing against such slaunderous tongues seeing that God hath not only committed vnto the magistrate the safetye of our goods and life but also the preseruation of our honest reporte ¶ The Replie vnto the Answere of the Preface IT may be sayde vnto you that whych Aristotle sayde of a certaine Philosopher that he knewe not his owne voice For if that you had remembred that which you do so often promis that you will not answer words but matter the Printer should not haue gained so much men should not haue bestowed so much money of a thing not of so great value nor that which is more the world shuld not be burdened wyth vnprofitable writings For how often tunninges out haue you to drawe the authors of the Admonition into hatred by inucighing bitterly agaynst their vnlearnednes maliciousnesse c. as it pleaseth you to terme it so that if there were any excesse of speache in them you haue payed it agayne with measure pressed downe running ouer How often charge you them with pride arrogancie men that confesse once or twyse of them selues their want of skill and which professe nothing of them selues but only a bare and naked knowledge of the truth which may be done with modesty euen of them which haue no learning And yet those that know them know that they are neyther voyde of the knowledge of the tongues nor of the liberall Artes albeit they do not make so many wordes of it as you * Salomon sayth that he that is despised and hath but one seruaunt is better then he which magnifyeth and setteth out him selfe and yet wanteth breade Whereby he meaneth that the man that hath but a little and caryeth hys countenaunce accordingly is much more to be estemed then he which beareth a great port and hath not to support it These brethren haue not vndertaken the knowledge of Logike Philosophie and other schoole learning whereof notwithstanding they are not destitute you in so often reproching them with the ignoraunce of them would make vs beleeue that you are so notable a Logician Philosopher as if Logike Philosophie had bene borne with you should dye with you when as it may appeare partly by that which hath bene spoken and partly by those things that wil fall out hereafter that you are better acquainted with the names of Logike and Philosophie then with any sounde or substantiall knowledge of them But let that be the vniuersities iudgement where you haue bene brought vp and are best knowne To returne to your vnprofitable excursions how oftentimes in your boke do you pull at the magistrates sworde and what sworde you would haue I leaue to the consideration of all men seing you are not satisfied with their imprisonment whereuppon also doth ensue the expence of that which they haue What matter is in all these that bringeth any helpe to the decision of these causes that are in question betwene vs how many leaues haue you wasted in confuting of the quotations which you say are vaine foolish vnlearned and to no purpose of that for which they are alleaged And if they be so where learned you to spend so much time about them Dyd you neuer learne that spoude ta me spoudes axia elegchein tôn atopôn esti to confute trifeling things seriously is a poynt of those which haue no iudgement to know what is meete for the tyme and place and other such circumstances If I should of the other side nowe go aboute to maintayne euery place to be not vnfitly quoted vnto that ende wherefore it is alleadged and shew how vniust your reprehensions are and how small cause you haue to leade them oftentimes so gloriously in triumph as you do which I assure you I could do in the most places As what could be more fitly alleaged to induce to reade the booke then that they should * try all things what more fitly to holde men from rashe condemning of things then that they shuld be * slow to speake what more fitly to moue that they should not misselike of the goodnes of the cause for the simplicitie or base degree of them that defend it then that we * should not haue the fayth of our Lord Iesus Christ in respect of persons and what more vniustly done then that you should whippe them for the printers faulte in putting one place for an other If I say I should thus go about to make good euery place how euill should I deserue either of learning or of the truth it selfe in blotting of much paper whereby no profit would come to the reader And if the dayes of a man were as many as the dayes of an Oke I would neither willingly trouble nor be troubled with such strife of wordes Seeing therefore God hath shut vs in so narow termes me thinke men should haue conscience of pestoring the world with such vnprofitable treatises Therefore all these and whatsoeuer else wandering words I shall meete with in this booke I meane by God his grace as dead things and nothing worth to bury with silence and will answere to those things which touch the matters that lye in controuersie betwene vs And as for the vnlearnednes blind zeale malice intolerable pride contempt of al good orders and twentie such more things wherwith M. Doctor chargeth vs if our life cōuersation doth not confute thē sufficiently our words
experience teacheth it you neede not make it so strange as though you knew not what they meant To the next section beginning in the. 38. page WHat ought to be generall if thys ought not to put the minister that hathe bene an idolater from hys mynisterie is it not a commaūdement of God and geuen not of one Leuite or two but of all those that went backe not at one tyme but at others also when the like occasion was geuen as appeareth in the booke of Kings where all the priestes of the Lord that had sacrificed in the high places were not suffered to come to the altare in Ierusalem Doth not S. Paul make smaller causes of deposing from the mynistery then idolatrie for after he hath described what manner of men the ministers should be and deacons he addeth And being tryed let them execute their functions as long as they remayne blamelesse I thinke if so be a man had bene knowne to be an adulterer although he repented him yet none that is well aduised would take him into the ministerie For if S. Paul reiect him that had ij wyues at once which was a thing that the Iewes and Gentiles thought lawfull and that was common amongst them and had preuayled throughout all the world how much les would he suffer any to be admitted to the ministerie which should be an adulterer and haue an other mans wyfe which is condemned of all that professe the name of Christ and which is not so generall a mischeefe as that was Or would he suffer him to abyde in the ministerie which should commit such wickednes during his function lykewyse of a murtherer Now the sinne of Idolatry is greater more detestable then any of them in as much as pertayning to the first table it immediatly stayneth Gods honor and breaketh duetie to him vnto whom we more owe it without all comparison then to any mortall man And if S. Paul in the choyse of the widow to attende vpon the sicke of the church which was the lowest office in the church requireth not only such a one as is at the time of the choise honest and holy but such a one as hath led her whole life in all good workes and with commendation how much more is that to be obserued in the minister or byshop of the church that he be not only at the tyme of his choyse but all other times before such a one as hath lyued without any notable and open offence of those amongst whome he had his conuersation If I should stand with you whether Peter his forswearing that he knew not Christ were a greater fault then to go from the gospell to idolatrie and there in for some long space to continue as the Leuites dyd I shoulde trouble you For if a man sodenly and at a push for feare and to saue his life say and sweare he is no christian and the same day repent him of hys fault although it be a great and haynous cryme yet it seemeth not to be so great as his is which not only denyeth Christ in words but doth it also in deedes and worshippeth Antichrist and continueth in that worship not a day but moneths and yeares But I wil answere you that euen as our sauiour Christ called S. Paule in the heate of his persecution whē he was a blasphemer vnto the Apostleship so he hauing the law in his owne handes and making no lawes for him selfe but for vs might call S. Peter also to that function which had thrise denyed him But as it is not lawfull for vs to follow the example of Christ in calling of Paul by admitting those which are new conuerted hauing a contrary precept geuen that no * new plant or greene christian should be taken to the mynisterie So is it not lawfull to follow that example of our sauiour Christ the contrary being commaunded as I haue before alledged For albeit the examples of our sauiour Christ be to be followed of vs yet if there be commaundementes generall to the contrary then we must know that it is our partes to walke in the broade and beaten way as it were the common caussie of the commaundement rather then an outpathe of the example I know Ambrose was taken newly from Paganisme to be bishop of Millaine for the great estimatiō credite he had amongst the people but besides that I haue shewed that suche thinges are vnlawfull being forbidden The errors and corrupt expounding of scriptures which are founde in his workes declare that it had bene more safe for the churche if by studie of the scriptures he hadde first bene a scholer of dyuinitie or euer he hadde beene made doctor There may be more examples shewed out of that which you call the prymitiue churche to the contrary of that which you say For when they vsed often tymes agaynste those that hadde so falne suche seueritie in deede extreme and excessiue that they were neuer after vntill their deathes admitted to the Lordes table I leaue to you to thinke whether they woulde then suffer any suche to execute the function of the ministerie Besides that S. Cyprian hath also a speciall treatise of thys that those that haue sacrificed to idolles should not be permitted any more to minister in the church But you aske what they say to M. Luther Bucer Crannier Latimer Ridley I pray you when dyd these excellent personages euer slide from the gospell vnto idolatrie which of them dyd euer say Masse after God had opened them the truth what hath so blynded you that you can not distinguishe and put a difference betweene one that hauing bene nousled from hys youthe vp in idolatrie commeth afterwardes out of it and betweene hym which hauing knowledge of the gospell afterward departeth from it and of such is the place of Ezechiel of such I say as haue gone backe and fallen away I know none that haue beene preachers of the gospell and after in the time of Queene Mary malsemongers which now are zealous godly learned preachers and if there be any suche I thincke for offence sake the Church might better be without them then haue them You say God in that place sheweth how greuous a sinne idolatrie is in the priestes especially And is it not now more greuous in the mynister of the gospell whose function is more precious and knowledge greater And if the sinne be greater should it haue now a lesse punishment then it had then how shall the fault be esteemed great or little but by the greatnes or smalnesse of the punishment you sayde before the places of Deuteronomie touching adding and diminishing nothing from that which the Lord commaundeth were for the Iewes and are not for our times And thys commaundement of God in Ezechiel you say serued for that time and not for oures You worke a sure way which to mayntayne your corruptions deny the scripture which speaketh agaynst them to be vnderstanded of those which be in our time
of the poore or of the vniuersitie and that that exces is the cause of diuers disorders in those persons that haue it but that they could not preache truely when they preached whych had great liuings I for my part neuer heard it I thinke you would not be exempted from reprehension of that wherin you fault and therfore I knowe not what you meane by these words the they did not those things them selues which they taught others we profes no such perfection in our liues but that we are oftentimes behinde a great deale in doing of that whych is taught to be our dueties to doe and therefore thinke it necessary that we should be reprehended and shewed our faultes Whereas you say that the Anabaptists accused the ministers for geuing too much to the Magistrates I haue shewed what we geue and if it be too little shew vs and we will amend our fault I assure you it greueth me and I am euen in the beginning weary of turning vp thys dunge and refuting so vaine and friuolous slaunders wythout all shewe and face of truthe and therfore I will be breefe in the rest To the thirde We praise God for this reformation so farre forthe as it is agreeable vnto the word of God we are glad the word of God is preached that the sacraments are ministred that whych is wanting we desire it may be added that whych is ouermuche cutte of and we are not ashamed to profes that we desire it may be done according to the institution of the churches in the Apostles time You your selfe confes that excommunication is abused that no amendment of life appeareth since the preaching of the gospel is an old and generall complaint of all godly ministers in all churches and in all tunes * Esay preached this in the church and of the whole churche and further that they brought for the rotten frute Dauid that the faithfull people were deminished out of the lād that there was none that did good no not one And diuers other of the Prophets haue made greuouser complaints and great charges against the people of God and yet were no Anabaptists nor in the way to Anabaptisme If there be none that eyther haue wrytten or spoken that the church of England is no more the true Churche of Christ then the papisticall churche then besides that there is no truthe in youre tongue there seemeth to be no shame in your forheade if there be any it standeth your good name in hand that you bring them out To the fourth If some of those whych fauor this cause haue ben ouercaryed in part to do things which might haue ben more cōueniently ordered it is against reason that you should therfore charge those which fauor thys cause that you oppugne You would thinke you had wrong if because some of those that fauor that which you fauor in this matter be either free wil men or hold consubstantiation in the Sacrament you shuld be chalenged as free will men or maintainers of consubstantiation If those metings whych they had were permitted vnto them by them that haue authoritie I see nothing why they may not seeke to serue God in puritie and les mixture of hurtfull ceremonies If they were not permitted yet your name of conuenticles whych agreed to the Anabaptists is too lighte and contemptuous to set forth those assemblies wherin I thinke you wil not deny but that the word of God and his sacraments were ministred take you heede that these so reprochfull speaches which you throw out against men reache not vnto God A softer word would haue better becommed you To the fifth I answere as vnto the last clause of the thirde article To the sixth We pretend it not but we propound it and herein we call God to witnes agaynst our owne soules To the seuenth If you do not these things which we say not we wil rather do thē with the Anabaptists then leaue them vndone with you Of our simple heart meaning in thē we haue before proteste◠In the meane season we wil paciently abide vntill the Lord bring our * rightuousnes in thys behalfe vnto light and our lust dealing as the none day Touching our sighing and seldome or neuer laughing you giue occasion after to speake of it vnto the which place I reserue the answer To the eight We are no Stoikes that we should not be touched with the feeling of our grefes if our complaintes be excessiue shewe them and we will abridge them What errors we defend and how you maintaine your part by the word of God it will appeare in the discourse of your boke To the ninthe Their finding fault wythout cause in the ceremonies of baptisme can not barre vs from finding fault where there is cause We allowe of the baptisme of children and hope throughe the goodnes of God that it shall be farre from vs euer to condemne it But to let your slaunderous tong go all the strings wherof ye seme to haue losed that it may the more frely be throwne out and walke against the innocent Where where is the modesty you require in other of not entring to iudge of things vnknowne which dare insinuate to the magistrate that it is lyke they will condemne childrens baptisme which doe baptise them preach they should he baptized and whych did neuer by sillable letter or countenaunce mislike of their baptisme To the. 10. 11. and. 12. I answer as vnto the fifth and for further answer I will refer the reader to those places where occasion shall be geuen to speake of these thyngs againe To the. 13. This is a braunch of the. 8. and added for nothing else but to make vp the tale To the. 14. We feare no shedding of bloud in her maiesties dayes for maintaining that whych we hope we shal be able to proue out of the word of God and wherin we agree with the best reformed churches but certaine of the things which we stād vpon are such as that if euery heare of our head were a life we ought to aforde them for the defence of them VVe bragge not of any the least abilitie of suffering but in the feare of God we hope of the assistance of God his holy spirite to abide whatsoeuer he shall thinke good to try vs with either for profession of thys or any other hys truth whatsoeuer To the. 15. VVe make no seperation from the church we go about to seperate all those thyngs that offend in the church to the end that we being all knit to the sincere truth of the gospell might afterwards in the same bond of truth be more nearely and closely ioyned together VVe endeuor that euery church hauing a lawfull pastor whych is able to instruct all myght be ranged to their proper churches wheras diuers onles they go to other then their owne parishes are like to heare few sermons in the yeare so farre are we from withdrawing men from their ordinary churches and pastors Let
is the rule of the best I say they know that these gouernmentes do easely declyne into their contraries and by reason therof both the gouernment of those which were most vertuous might easely be chaunged into the gouernment of few of the richest or of greatest power and the populare estate might easely passe to a confused tumulte Now thys incommoditie were they more subiect vnto vnder a tyrant then vnder a godly prince For they had no cyuill magistrate which might correct and reforme those declyninges when they happened For the tyrantes dyd not know of it and if they had known of it they would haue bene glad to see the churches goe to wracke Therfore now we haue a godly ciuil magistrate which both wil ought to remedy such declinings conuersions of good gouernment into euill it followeth that thys estate gouernmēt by auncientes is rather to be vsed vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant Besides thys in the tyme of persecution all assemblyes of dyuers together were daungerous and put them all in hazard of their lyfe which dyd make those assemblies And therefore if the pastor alone might haue ordered and determyned of things pertayning to the church by hym selfe it had bene lesse daunger to him and more safety for others of the Church And therfore if the senyors were then thought meete to gouerne the church when they could not come together to exercise their functions without daunger much more ought they to be vnder a christian prince when they may meete together without daunger M. Doctor proceedeth sayeth it can not be gouerned in a whole realme as it may be in a citie or town This gouernment by senyors is not only in one citie but also hath beene of late throughout the whole realme of Fraunce where there were any churches and M. Doctor confesseth that it was in all the primitiue churches and therefore not onely in one realme but almost throughout the whole world and therefore the large spreading of the church can not hynder it So that the difference lyeth still in the peace and persecution of the Church and not in the capacitie and largenesse of the place where the churches abyde So might one reason agaynst the lawfull estate of a Monarchie For he might say that although the rule of one be needefull and conuenient in a housholde yet it is not conuenient in a towne and although it be conuenient in a towne yet it is not in a citie and although in a citie yet not in a realme To be short sayeth hee when he can say no more it can not be gouerned when it is full of hypocrites Papistes Atheistes and other wicked persons as in the times of persecution when there were few or none such I haue shewed before how great want of knowledge it bewrayeth to say that Papistes and Atheistes be of the church and I loue not as Maister Doctor doth to vse often repetition but if there bee now moe hypocrites other wicked and vnruely parsones in the church then there were in the tyme of persecution which I wil not deny thē there is greater cause now why there should be senyors in euery churche then there was then when there were fewer For the more naughty persons and the greater disorders there be the more ayde and helpe hath the pastor neede to haue both to finde out their disorders and also when they haue founde them out to iudge of the qualitie of them and after also to correct them with the censures of the church which standeth in such reprehensions priuate and open and excommunication as I haue before rehearsed Afterwarde he asketh what senyors may bee had in most of the paryshes of Englande fitte for that office he asketh the same question in the. 133. page where he also addeth pastors asking where may be gotten such pastoures as the authors of the Admonition require when as they require no other then those which the word of God requireth Well then if thys be a good reason why there should be no elders in any church because fitte men are not to be gotten in all paryshes it followeth by M. Doctors reason that forasmuch as we haue not fit and able pastors for euery church that therfore we ought to haue no able pastor in any church And if he will graunt that we ought to haue able pastoures in as many places as they may be gotten how can he deny that wee should haue elders in those churches where fitte men may bee had And I say further where wee haue an expresse commaundement layde vpon vs to doe a thing there all disputations must cease of hardenes of impossibility or profite or else of peace For first God hath not commaunded any orders in hys churche which are impossible and if they seeme harde it must bee remembred that the best and excellentest things are hardest and that there is nothing so harde which dyligence and trauayle to bring it to passe will not ouercome Which thing if it bee proued true in worldly affaires the truth therof will much more appeare in the matters pertayning vnto God considering that if God with hys blessing doe surmount all the difficultyes in worldly matters whych are otherwyse harde to be compassed hee will in hys owne matters and matters pertayning to hys glory fill vp the valleys although they be neuer so low bring downe the hylles althoughe they bee neuer so high playne the wayes be they neuer so rough so that he will make of a way not passable in the eyes of flesh away tracked and easie to goe in and to walke towardes that kingdome whereunto hee calleth vs Besides that I answere wheresoeuer there is a churche there are the riches of the spirite of God there is wyth knowledge discretion wisdom and there are suche as * S. Paule calleth wise and can discerne and iudge And wee see that when men are called to a lawfull and profitable calling and especially to a publike calling God doth powre on hys giftes of that person which is called so plentifully that hee is as it were sodenly made a newe manne which if he do in the wicked as Saule was there is no doubt but he will doe it in those which are with the testimony of the church and with experience of their former godly behauiour chosen to such offices of waight So that there is not nor can not bee any want to obey Goddes commaundement and to establishe the order in the church whych God hath appoynted but our owne eyther neglygence and slouthfulnes or fearefulnes or ambition or some other leuen which we nourish within our selues It is true that we ought to be obedyent vnto the cyuill magistrate which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vnto hym and according to that calling But it must be remembred that cyuil magistrates must gouerne it according to the rules of God prescribed in hys word that as they are nourises so they
iudgement of M. Bucer And wheras M. doctor vpon that s. Peter willeth the husbands to geue honor to their wiues wold approue this manner of speach in matrimony wyth my body I thee worshyp he must vnderstaÌ„d that it is one thing wyth vs to worship and an other thing to honor For we honor men whych we do not worshyp and besides that S. Peter speaketh of the honor of the mynde wherby the husband shuld be moued to beare wyth the infirmities of his wife therfore it is vnfitly alleaged to proue that he may worship her with his body As for the receiuing of the Communion when they be marryed that it is not to be suffered onles there be a generall receiuing I haue before at large declared and as for the reason that is fathered of M. Bucer whych is that those that be Christians maye not be ioyned in maryage but in Christe It is verye slender and cold as if the sacrament of the supper were instituted to declare any such thyng or they could not declare their ioyning togither in Christ by no meanes but by receyuing the supper of the Lorde To the next section in the. 197. page TEll me M. doctor why there should be any such confirmation in the church being brought in by the fained Decretall Epistles of the Popes and no one tittle therof being once found in the scrypture and seeing that it hath bene so horribly abused and not necessary why ought it not to be vtterly abolyshed and thirdly thys confirmation hath very dangerous poynts in it The first steppe of popery in thys confirmation is the laying on of hands vpon the head of the childe wherby the opinion of it that it is a sacrament is confirmed especially when as the prayer dothe saye that it is done according to the example of the Apostles whych is a manifest vntruthe and taken in deede from the popish confirmation The seconde is for that the byshop as he is called must be the only minister of it wherby the popishe opinion whych esteemeth it aboue baptisme is confirmed For whilest baptisme may be ministred of the minister and not coÌ„firmation but only of the byshop there is great cause of suspition geuen to thinke that baptisme is not so precious a thing as confirmation seeing thys was one of the principall reasons wherby that wicked opinion was establyshed in popery I do not heere speake of the inconuenience that meÌ„ are constrained with charges to bryng their childreÌ„ oftentimes halfe a score miles for that which if it were nedeful might be as wel done at home in their owne parishes The thirde is for y â— â—â— the allegation of the seconde cause of the vsing of the confirmation the boke sayeth that by the imposition of hands and prayer the chyldren may receyue strengthe and defence agaynst all temptations whereas there is no promyse that by the laying on of hands vpon chyldren any suche gyfte shall be geuen and it maintayneth the popyshe distinction that the spirite of God is geuen at baptisme vnto the remissyon of synnes and in confirmation vnto strength the whych very worde strength the booke alledgeth and all thys M. Doctor confuteth by callyng of the authors of the admonition peeuish and arrogant To the next section contained in the. 198. 199. 200. 201. pages LEast M. Doctor as hys common fashyon is when the corruption of anye thyng is spoken agaynst say that we condemne buryall I would haue hym vnderstand that we hold that the body must be honestly and comely buried and that it is mete that for that cause some reasonable numbre of those whych be the frends and neyghbors about should accompany the corps to the place of buryall We hold it also lawfull to lament the dead and if the dignity of the persone so require we thynke it not vnlawfull to vse some way about the buriall wherby that may appeare but yet so that there be a measure kepte bothe in the weepyng and in the charges consydering that whereas immoderate eyther weepyng or pompe was neuer no not in the tyme of the lawe allowed nowe in the time of the gospell all that is not lawfull whych was permitted in the time of the law For vnto the people of God vnder the law weeping was by so much more permitted vnto them then vnto vs by howe muche they had not so cleare a reuelation and plaine syght of the resurrection as we haue whych was y cause also why it was lawfull for them to vse more cost in the embaulmyng of the dead therby to nouryshe and to helpe their hope touchyng the resurrection wherof we haue a greater pledge by the resurrection of our sauyor Christ then they had Nowe for the thyngs whych the admonition findeth fault wyth and thereof bryngeth reason M. Doctor of hys bare credite wythout any reason or scrypture or any thyng els commendeth them vnto vs sayeth they be good And thys you shall marke to be M. doctors symple shyft throughoute hys booke that when he hath no coloure of scripture nor of reason no name nor title of doctor theÌ„ to make vp some thyng he varyeth hys affirmation by all the figures he can as in saying simplye that it is so and then in askyng whether it be not so and after in askyng whether there is any other man will thynke that it is not so as if the woulde make vs beleeue that he setteth vs dyuers kindes of meates because he bryngeth the same in dyuers dyshes For besydes these reasons he hathe no reason eyther to proue that it is meete to haue prescript forme of seruice for the dead or that the minister should be drawne to thys charge Surely if the order be so good and conuenient it hath met with a very barren patron whych can say nothing for it And although there be enough sayd by the admonition yet because thys bold and hardy speache is enough to lead the simpler away to make them thinke that M. doctor hathe a good cause therfore I wil also say somthyng of these rites of buryal And first of all as thys almost is a generall fault in them all that they maintayne in the mindes of the ignorant the opinion of praying for the dead so is thys also a nother general fault that these ceremonyes are taken vp without any example either of the churches vnder the law or of the purest churches vnder the gospel that is of the churches in the apostles times For when the scripture descrybeth the ceremonies or rites of buryall amongste the people of God so dilygently that it maketh mention of the smallest thyngs there is no doubte but the holy Ghoste doth therby shew vs a paterne wherevnto we should also frame oure buryalles And therfore for so much as neyther the church vnder the law nor vnder the gospell when it was in the greatest puritye dyd euer vse any prescript forme of seruice in the buryall of theyr dead it coulde not be but daungerous