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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A06347	An excellent and plaine discourse of the church, whereby the godlie may knowe and discerne the true Church, from the Romish Church, and all other false and counterfet churches, as well for matters of doctrine, as discipline, &c. Written in Frenche by M. Bartrand de Loque, a godlie minister of Dolphenine. And faithfully translated into English, by M.T.W. Seene and allowed; Traité de l'eglise. English	Loque, Bertrand de.; T. W. (Thomas Wilcox), 1549?-1608.	1582 (1582)	STC 16813; ESTC S103377	172,896	422

only in respect of ciuill iudgements and because they are the tutors mainteiners and defenders of publike good things and common wealth but also because the principall parte of their charge and office is to serue God in nourishing and mainteining his seruice as well outward as inward in causing pure doctrine and religion to florishe and in keeping the state of the Church safe and sound and whole in euery parte For whiche effect and cause they are also named in Isaiah Nurcing fathers Isaia 49.23 1. Tim. 2.24 and Nurces of the Church The Apostle writing vnto Timothie sheweth vs the selfe same matter when after he had exhorted them to pray for the kinges and for all those which are placed in authoritie hee addeth as a fitte reason and very strong for that purpose That vnder them wee may leade a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honestie For thereby hee euidently declareth that the Magistrates office is to haue care that the people whiche are committed to them shoulde liue not onely in honestie and in peace one of thē with another but also in all godlines and feare of God But if the holy scripture did not teache vs this yet wee might in some sort learne it out of prophane authours that is to say Philosophers and Heathen lawemakers For among the Philosophers Aristotle in his Politikes hath saide Aristot in Politicis That Godlinesse and religion are the matters whiche Magistrates ought to esteeme moste necessarie for the establishment of common weales Plato in Epinom And Plato in his Epinomis saith also That Princes shoulde not at any time bee persuaded that there is any thing more profitable and necessarie for mankinde then that vertue is which men call pietie and godlinesse that is to say religion and the seruice of God And as concerning lawemakers wee knowe that they hauing to prouide for necessarie thinges and to make ordinances and decrees therefore haue alwayes giuen the first and most honourable place to pietie or godlines and the seruice of GOD. And indeede because they woulde that their lawes shoulde be of greater authoritie and better receiued of their people as well agreeing with pietie and godlinesse Minos they haue made them beleeue that their Gods were authours thereof Minos the Lawemaker of the Cretenses gaue them to vnderstande that hee was Iupiters familiar friende and that hee spake often to him to the ende the people might beleeue that hee receiued from him the lawes which hee established amongest them Zoroastes Zoroastes giuing lawes to the Bactrians and Persians said that hee receiued them from Oromason whome they accounted for God authour of al goodnesse Trismegistus saide also Trismegistus that hee had receiued from Mercurius the lawes whiche he gaue to the Egyptians Carondas Carondas the lawemaker amongest the Carthaginenses referred and ascribed his lawes to Saturnus Licurgus Licurgus the lawemaker of the Lacedemonians referred the lawes which hee gaue to Apollo Solō Draco Solon and Draco the lawemakers among the Athenians referred their lawes to Minerua Xamolxis Numa Xamolxis the lawemaker among the Scithians ascribed his lawes to Vesta Numa to the ende he might get authoritie to his lawes amongest the Romans feigned that in the night season hee had great acquaintance or lay with the goodnesse Aegeria Wherefore this remaineth resolute and standeth sure that Princes and Magistrates to the end that they may in good policie and order gouerne their Lordships and frame the maners of their subiectes ought alwayes to beginne with pietie and the seruice of God as with the most necessarie matter and as without the which there is no regiment or gouernment in the worlde which can long subsist or stand And therefore for this cause specially is it that good kinges princes and lords are praised in the Scripture as Dauid Iosiah Hezekiah amongest kinges Ioseph and Daniell among the rulers and gouernours of prouinces for kings Moses Iehoshua and the Iudges amongst those who had the guiding and leading of people whiche were free Wherefore the flatterers of the courte doe villanously abuse and mocke the very Lordes and Princes when they blow this into their eares that the cause of religion concerneth them nothing at all and that they ought to bee content with this that they haue some care of politike matters committed vnto them and charge of their domesticall and housholde affaires and namely of their Horses Dogges Haukes Foules c. For warre for hunting hauking and for their other particular pleasures without trauelling and taking any more paine for all that or any part thereof whiche concerneth the good estate affaires of Gods Church Thankes bee to God my Lorde that you bee farre otherwise instructed in that which belongeth to the duetie of Christian lordes and magistrates than that which the courtiers brabble and prate not to suffer your selfe to bee distracted neither to goe astray from that which the truth hath once taught you And I hope yea I hope it very stedfastly that that great god who hath put and placed in you so good seede will giue it so good an increase that he will be thereby for euer glorified and that that true not counterfet profession of the religion which you haue will bring to passe that you shall bee more and more loued and honored of good honest people and feared reuerenced of the wicked and persecutors On mine owne parte that I might bring some aide and succour to the faithfull people to the end that they might learne by your example to put a difference betweene the true and false Church by the same meane to resolue to keepe and stay them selues vppon the true Church and that I might also giue some familiar and plaine order to all to knowe on which side the true Churche is I haue as diligentlye builded framed and prepared this present discourse as it was possible for mee wherein I intreate of the Churche and all the points and partes thereof that I thought meete and purposed to touch or could think vpon And therin I haue followed the most apt and cōuenient order that I coulde choose without confounding the matters therin declaring al that which wee ought to behold and beleeue of the church touching her estate forme guiding gouernment For I shewe therein what is the true Church whiche are her true and infallible markes which is the true succession calling of Pastors therin what is her spreading abrode increase of continuance who is the head thereof howe shee is holy whether she may erre what is her power and authoritie amongest whom it is what be the degrees and orders of her guiders what is her discipline whether the Ministerie bee necessarie in her And lastly I speake of her persecutions and afflictions in which point I am somewhat more large then in the rest because I knewe that the present neede and occasion required it to the end I might confirme and

An excellent and plaine Discourse of the CHVRCH whereby the Godlie may knowe and discerne the true Church from the Romish Church and all other false and counterfet Churches as well for matters of doctrine as Discipline c. Written in Frenche by M. Bartrand de Loque a godlie Minister of Dolphenine And faithfully translated into English by M.T.W. SEENE AND ALLOWED Jmprinted at London for Thomas Man 1582. ¶ The summe of the Chapters conteined in this present Treatise Chapter 1 TOuching the diuers significations and takinges of this worde Church and how the Churche is commonlie distinguished Pag. 1. Chap. 2. Of the Catholik vniuersall Church which is one although there be diuers particulers thereof Pag. 7. Chap. 3. Of the visible Church and of the true marks thereof Pag. 14 Chap. 4. Whether the true markes of the Churche are to bee found amongest the Romish Catholikes Pag. 19. Chap. 5. Of the calling succession of pastors Pa. 24. Chap. 6. That the Church hath alwaies been from the beginning of the worlde is and shal be vnto the end thereof but yet the Churche must not bee regarded or acknowledged for the great numbers sake Pag. 55. Chap. 7. That Iesus Christe alone is the head of the Churche and not Saint Peter neither any Pope Pag. 68. Chap. 8. Whether the Church of Rome be the true and Catholike Church and whether wee doe well to withdrawe or separate our selues from it Pag. 102. Chap. 9. Touching the degrees of Ministers in the Church where also speeche is had of the orders of the Popes Cleargie and of the office and dueties of true Pastors Pag. 128. Chap. 10. Whether the ministerie of the word be alwaies necessary in the Church and howe muche men may attribute or giue thereto Pag. 160. Chap. 11. Of the sanctifie or holinesse of the Churche Pag. 184. Chap. 12. Whether the Churche may erre Pag. 197. Chap. 13. Whether the Church bee aboue the holy scripture that is to say whether the holy scripture depend on the iudgement and authoritie of the Church Pag. 213. Chap. 14. Of the Discipline of the Church Pag. 234. Chap. 15. Whether it belonge to the Churche to make lawes and if shee make some howe far the faithfull ought to obey her Pag. 25● Chap. 16. Concerning the afflictions and persecutions of the Church Pag. 274. ¶ To the most noble Lorde my Lorde Henrie de la Tour Vicount of Turenne Countie of Monfert Baron of Mongacon Oriergues Bonsolz Fey Seruissac Croc c. Captaine of fiue hundred men at armes of the kings armies MY Lorde Lactan. lib. 4 de vera sapient cap. 30. Lactantius hath very properly and fitly called the Church the fountaine of trueth the house and dwelling place of faith and the Temple of God adioyning withall that if there bee any whiche entreth not into this Temple or if there bee any that goe out thereof hee is shut out from the hope of life and from eternall saluation For euen as in the time of the vniuersall flood none could bee saued whiche were out of Noe his Arke Gene. 7.20.23 so without the Churche there is neither hope nor faith nor grace nor saluation Whiche thing also the Apostle Saint Paul did verie well declare and meane when beeing purposed to excommunicate some and to caste them out of the Churche 2. Cor. 5 3.5 1. Tim. 1.20 hee saide hee muste deliuer them vnto Satan For as Iesus Christ reigneth in the Churche so Satan reigneth without the same and as they whiche are in the Church hauing Iesus Christe for their head are in very good state blessed so they which are out of the Churche hauing the Diuell for their head cannot but be wicked and accursed And therfore it is said both in Isaiah in Ioel That in Sion and in Ierusalem there shal be saluation Isaia 46.13 Ioel. 2.32 There being meant by Syon and Ierusalem the Church of God as also by the worde heauen there is meant the same thing in the Apocalips when S. Iohn saith I hearde a great and lowde voice Reue. 12.10 saying Nowe is saluation in heauen On the other side wee reade that when God declareth that hee will vtterly roote out some from the heauenly life hee denounceth against them and threateneth Ezech. 13.9 That they shall not be in the counsell assemblie of his people neither written in the role of his seruantes And Dauid very well knewe and felt this when sometimes being in exile all griefes and aduersities were vnto him tollerable and as a man woulde say easie to beate excepting this that hee was depriued of and wanted the solemne assemblies wherein men made publike declaration and protestation of Gods religion and seruice Wherefore be wailing his condition because hee was excluded from the visible Churche hee beeing also shut out from accesse or comming to the Tabernacle by the crueltie and tyrannie of his enemies hee cryed out earnestly and saide O Lord of hostes how amiable are thy Tabernacles Psalm 84.1.2.4.10 My soule longeth yea fainteth for the courtes of the Lorde for my hearte and my fleshe leape for ioy in the liuing God And a little after Blessed are they which dwell in thy house they will euer prayse thee For a day in thy courtes is better then a thousand other wheis I had rather bee a doore keeper in the house of my God then to dwell in the Tabernacles of the wicked For thereby hee hath declared that the condition of those men which bestowe their life yea although it were but a day long in the seruice of God in the middest of the Church among faithfull people is farre more blessed then theirs who liue though it were neuer so long out of Gods house and in the midst of those out of whose companie their religion is banished To which purpose also belongeth that which the same Prophete singeth in an other Psalme Psalm 27.4 One thing haue I desired of the Lorde that I will require euen that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the dayes of my life to behold the beautie of the Lorde and to visit his Temple And againe when hee saith Psal 106.45 Remember or haue mercie on mee O Lorde with the fauour and good will of the people and visite mee with thy saluation That I may set the good thinges of thy chosen ones and reioyce in the ioy of thy people and glory with thine inheritaunce And for this verie cause and occasion the Apostle to the Hebrwes commendeth praiseth Moses Heb. 11.24.25 when hee saith That by faith hee beeing come to age refused to bee called the sonne of Pharaoh his daughter chosing rather to suffer aduersitie with the people of God then to inioy the pleasures of sinne for a short season Wherefore if wee woulde that GOD shoulde gouerne vs by his holy spirite to the ende to make vs inioy and possesse his spirituall and heauenly good thinges

the Romish Church wee breake not the vnitie of the Churche bicause that in the Romish Churche there is no true vnitie For first of all it is not at vnitie in it selfe as appeareth by the seuerall sectes and rules which are amongst them one saying I am of the order of S. Augustine an other I am of Saint Dominick his order an other I am of S. Frauncis an other I am a Iesuite contrarie to that which S. Paul writ to the Corinthians 1. Cor. 1.11.12.13 in the first chapter Secondly that Church is not vnited with God which vnion or vnitie is necessarilie ioyned with the former 1. Ioh. 1.3 as Saint Iohn declareth it And that this is true that it hath not any vnion or fellowship with god it is sufficiently plaine by this only reason that hee that hath vnion or fellowship with God ought by the testemonie of the holy spirit and by faith to be assured hereof that God dwelleth in him and he in God euen as the scripture teacheth vs. But the faith of papists is this that we must alwaies doubt whether wee be in the grace and fauour of God wherefore they can not haue vnion or fellowship with him Furthermore this is to bee marked that there is no vnion or agreement betweene the doctrine of papists and the worde of God wherevpon it followeth that they are not all vnited with him Which being cōsidered to what end and purpose would they haue vs to remaine abide in the vnitie of the Romishe Church seeing there is not in it any vnitie I meane holy vnitie and such as agreeth wel to good Christians and the true members of Iesus Chirst They will obiect further you hold indeede that baptisme ministred in the Romish Churche is true Baptisme why then doe you not holde this Church for the true Church I aunswere that this reason is verie weake For wee doe not acknowledge the assemblie of heretikes for the true Churche although wee cease not to allowe the baptisme ministred amongest them for true and profitable euen as the councell of Carthage decreed the same because that Baptisme is alwaies the Baptisme of Christ and not of heretikes although it bee ministred by heretikes who haue notwithstanding some vocation and allowaunce of the people Wherein let vs heare Saint Augustine Augu. lib. 3 cont Donatist cap. 10. The water saith hee ouer whiche the name of God is called vpon is not bastardly for neither the creature nor the name is prophane or bastardly Wherefore the Baptisme of Christ being sanctified and hallowed by the wordes of the Gospel is holy among the adulterous and in the adulterous although they them selues be shamelesse and vncleane And in an other place Aug cont Crescent lib. 3. cap. 6 The baptisme is such as is he by whose vertue it is administred and suche as bee by whose handes it is administred August de fide ad Pet. cap. 36. Also because it is manifest that in what so euer place where baptisme is administred it ought to be but once ministred this is to be marked that though it be administred by heretikes in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy ghoste it ought to be reuerently receiued and at no hand reiterated Wherfore we esteeme and take the baptisme of the Romish Church for true baptisme because it is ministred not in the name of the Pope but in the name of the father of the sonne and of the holy ghoste and confesse that the infants which receiue it are truly baptised euen as they whiche were circumcised in the time of Ieroboam and of Caiaphas were helde for true circūcised persons although at that time the state of the churche was almost altogether peruerted and corrupted But yet this remaineth that albeit we haue receiued baptisme in the popish assemblie and that wee hold the same for true baptisme yet we are farre off from holding or accounting that assemblie for the true Church Caluine hath sufficiently answered this difficultie or doubt whose wordes I will bring in place heere contenting my selfe therewith Caluin lib. 4 Instit cap. 2. sect 11.12 As in the time of Ieroboam saith he there were certaine prerogatiues belonging to the Church which remained amongest the Iewes although at that time the seruice of God was very much corrupted so we denie not but that the Papists haue at this day som steps and pathes of the dissipation or scattering of the Church which through the grace of God haue remained with them For as Circumcision could not be so defiled by the vncleane hāds of the Iewes but that it was alwaies a signe a sacrament of the couenant of God for which cause god called the infants or children which were borne of this people his which could not any maner of way belong vnto him but by a certaine special blessing and priuiledge After the same maner also because hee hath once placed his couenant in France in Italie in Germanie other countries although that al that was afterwardes oppressed by the tyrannie of Antechriste yet to the ende that his couenant might remaine amongest them inuiolable and vnbroken it hath pleased him that baptisme shoulde there remaine for a testimonie witnesse of that couenant which bicause it is ordained hallowed by his owne mouth retaineth and keepeth her owne force notwithstanding the vngodlinesse of men Likewise hee hath by his prouidence brought to passe that there shoulde remaine amongest them other remnants also as the Lordes prayer the Apostles Creede the Commaundements of GOD c. leaste the Churche shoulde vtterly perishe And as sometimes buildings are pulled downe in such sort that the foundations remaine and some shewe of the ruines and destructions so the Lorde hath not suffered that his Churche shoulde be so rased or destroyed by Antichrist that nothing of the building shoulde remaine And although that he might take vengeance of the vnthankefulnes of men who despised his word he hath suffered such a horrible shaking and fal to be made yet it was his pleasure that some part or portion thereof should remaine as a signe token marke that the whole was not abolished Wherefore when we refuse simply to graunt vnto the Papistes the title of the Church wee doe not therfore vtterly deeme them that they haue not any Churches amongest them but we onely reason of the true and right estate of the Church which importeth a fellowship as wel in the doctrine as in al that which belōgeth to the profession of our Christianitie Daniel 9.27 2. Thes 2.4 Daniel and S. Paul haue foretold that Antichrist shall sit in the temple of God We say that the Pope is the head of that execrable abhominable and cursed kingdome at the least he is so in the West Churche Nowe seeing it is saide that the seat of Antichrist shall bee in the temple of GOD thereby is meant that his kingdome shall bee suche as shall not altogether

therefore this is our continuall exercise that when wee shall haue indured and suffered sundrie persecutions wee shoulde prepare and dispose our selues to suffer them againe and other new beside them knowing as we haue erewhile alleadged That hee which shall continue to the end shall bee saued Mat. 10.22 Wherfore they abuse and deceiue them selues who thinke that they haue rightly and duely discharged their duetie if they haue stoode fast in the time of one persecution or of two for it is not with the first flight that we flie to the ioies of Paradise and Iesus Christe commaundeth vs not any thing here which hee himselfe hath not first of all shewed vs the way thereto seeing that he was not only vnder the crosse but that all his life was no other thing then a perpetuall combate and striuing against afflictions 2. Cor. 11.14 c. And Saint Paule although hee might haue set out his labours his perils his prisonings his beatings his shipwracks and an infinite number of other afflictions notwithstanding hee saide yet That hee was altogether ready to suffer not onely to bee bounde and put in prison but also willingly Acts. 20.23.24 and without any griefe to die for Christes cause O how great is this honour to giue vp our life for the name of God They that are in the wages or souldiership of som earthly prince make no great difficultie to forsake their owne parents and their goods that they may go to his seruice yea it troubleth them not muche to hazarde and giue vp their owne liues to mainteine his quarrell and cause which very often is vniust wicked And shall wee which haue such a prince as Iesus Christe the sonne of God is who died for vs poore and miserable sinners shall wee I say doubt to leaue all thinges yea to aduenture and yeelde vp our owne liues to maintaine his cause and his quarrell which is so iust and vpright specially seeing hee hath power to render and giue the same againe vnto vs afterwards Moreouer the meditation of the glory to come as wee haue alreadie touched the same ought to strengthen and incourage vs in the midst of afflictions as wee see Saint Paule fully resolued and setled himselfe thereupon when hee saide to the Corinthians 2. Cor. 4.17.18 Our light affliction whiche is but for a moment causeth vnto vs a farre most excellent and an eternall weight of glory Whyle wee looke not on the thinges which are seene but on the thinges which are not seene For the things which are seene are temporall but the thinges which are not seene 2 Tim. 2.11.12 are eternall And to Timothie It is a true saying If we be dead with Christ we shall also liue with him if we suffer with him we shal also reigne with him Do we think to haue the crowne of glory without hauing first fought as our great Captaine did Do wee thinke to reigne with the Prince of life on high in heauē without hauing first suffered and borne troubles with him in this worlde If men take the earth from vs let vs looke vp to heauen Act. 7.55.56 which is open for vs as it was to Saint Steeuen If they put vs to death let vs loke to Iesus Christ who is our life who also died rose againe Rom. 14.8 9. to the ende that if wee die we should die vnto him that afterwardes wee may bee raysed vp in glory as hee was Phill. 3.21 If our abiect and base body bee despised and dishonoured let vs looke to the glorious body of our Lorde Iesus Christe like vnto whiche our bodies shall bee made in the last day To bee short if wee weepe and waile in this wonderfull heape and sea of miseries 2. Cor. 5.1 being in this worlde strangers pilgrimes passengers let vs remember that when wee shall once come to our celestiall and heauenly Citie whiche wee nowe wayte and hope for then wee shall reioyce with a ioy which cannot bee comprehended and that with God himselfe and the holy Angels Prophetes Apostles and Martyrs For the Lord wil wipe away all teares frō our eies Reuel 21. 4. and there shal be no more death neither sorow neither crying neither shal there be any more paine Then shall wee feele the fruite of the Crosse and tribulation whiche wee haue indured and suffered in this worlde Then shall wee know how much wee bee blessed Reue. 21.4 that haue suffered for Iesus Christe and haue made our robes white in the blood of the Lambe 1. Iohn 3.2 1. Cor. 13.12 Then shall wee beholde God euen as hee is and shall knowe him perfectly as he knoweth vs and we shall liue and reigne with him for euer The Apostle in the Epistle to the Hebrwes doeth by this meditation incourage the faithfull Heb. 10.34.35 when hee said vnto them Yee haue beene partakers of the afflictions of my bandes and suffered with ioy the spoiling of your goods knowing in your selues how that yee haue in heauen a better and induring substance Cast not away therefore your confidence which hath great recompence and rewarde But shall wee nowe thinke or suppose that wee loose our life when wee shall haue abandoned forsaken and as it were giuen vp the same vnto tyrants for Gods cause matters Mat. 5.12 Shal we iudge that wee die vpon imagination and as it were foolishe and insensible madde people as indeede the worlde supposeth seeing Iesus Christe hath promised vs so great a rewarde and hyre in heauen Shall wee say that our death is wicked and accursed when hee himselfe by his sacred and holy Reue. 14.13 mouth hath pronounced the same blessed or els that when wee die for Christ Iesus his name wee shoulde bee cursed when the holy Ghoste pronounceth vs blessed Wherefore let vs not stay our selues in the iudgement of the fleshe which is so much blinded that shee seeth not life in death neither blessednesse in the curse but let vs behold with the eyes of our faith the promises of God and bee fully resolued of this that the way and meane to make vs conformeable and like to our head Iesus Christ is to carry and beare with patience our crosse after him For as S. Paule saith Wee must suffer with Iesus Christe Rom. 8.17 that wee may also be glorified with him The eleuenth point what is the ende which persecutors haue had Examples of the punishements and vengeāces of God against the persecutors of the Church Experience teacheth vs that there was yet neuer any tyrant with whome it wente well at the last in banding and setting him selfe againste God And the holy Scripture giueth vs also a faithfull testimonie and an assured witnesse thereof as also the Ecclesiasticall historie it selfe God hauing willed and appointed that the issues and ends of the persecutors of his Church shoulde be put in order and declared by writing for a testimony of his wrath