and Mr. Attwood of grays-Inne being Gentlemen whom I do mention honoris causa and really they deserve to be honor'd that they will spare some time from the Mechanical part of their Callings which is to assist Clients with Counsel and to plead their Causes and which I acknowledg likewise to be honourable to study the true Interest of their Country and to show how ancient the Rights of the People in England are and that in a time when neither Profit nor Countenance can be hop'd for from so ingenious an undertaking But I beg pardon for the deviation Of the three branches of Soveraign Power which Politicians mention which are Enacting Laws Levying of Taxes and making War and Peace the two first of them are indisputably in the Parliament and when I say Parliament I ever intend with the King The last has been usually exercis'd by the Prince if he can do it with his own Money yet because even in that Case it may be ruinous to the Kingdom by exposing it to an Invasion many have affirmed that such a Power cannot be by the true and ancient free Government of England supposed to be Intrusted in the hands of one man And therefore we see in divers Kings Reigns the Parliament has been Consulted and their advice taken in those matters that have either concerned War or Leagues And that if it has been omitted Addresses have been made to the king by Parliaments either to make war or peace according to what they thought profitable to the publick So that I will not determine whether that power which draws such consequences after it be by the genuine sence of our Laws in the Prince or no although I know of no Statute or written Record which makes it otherwise That which is undoubtedly the Kings Right or prerogative is to Call and Dissolve Parliaments to preside in them to approve of all Acts made by them and to put in Execution as Supream or Soveraign Magistrate in the Intervals of Parliaments and during their Sitting all Laws made by them as also the Common Law for which Cause he has the nomination of all Inferiour Officers and Ministers under him excepting such as by Law or Charter are eligible otherwise and the Power of the Sword to force Obedience to the Judgements given both in Criminal and Civil Causes Doct. Sir You have made us a very absolute Prince what have we left us if the King have all this Power what do our Liberties or Rights signifie whenever he pleases Eng. Gent. This Objection Doctor makes good what I said before that your skill did not terminate in the body natural but extend to the Politick for a more pertinent Interrogatory could never have been made by Plato or Aristotle In answer to which you may please to understand That when these Constitutions were first made our Ancestors were a plain-hearted well-meaning People without Court-reserves or tricks who having made choice of this sort of Government and having Power enough in their hands to make it take place did not foresee or imagine that any thoughts of Invading their Rights could enter into the Princes Head nor do I read that it ever did till the Norman Line came to Reign which coming in by Treaty it was obvious there was no Conquest made upon any but Harold in whose stead William the First came and would claim no more after his Victory than what Harold enjoy'd excepting that he might confiscate as he did those great men who took part with the wrong Title and French-men were put into their Estates which though it made in this Kingdom a mixture between Normans and Saxons yet produced no Change or Innovation in the Government the Norman Peers being as tenacious of their Liberties and as active in the recovery of them to the full as the Saxon Families were Soon after the death of William and possibly in his time there began some Invasions upon the Rights of the Kingdom which begat Grievances and afterwards Complaints and Discontents which grew to that height that the Peers were fain to use their Power that is Arm their Vassals to defend the Government whilest the Princes of that Age first King John and then Henry the Third got Force together The Barons call'd in Lewis the Dauphin whilst the King would have given away the Kingdom to the Sarazens as he did to the Pope and armed their own Creatures so that a bloody War ensued for almost forty years off and on as may be read in our History The success was that the Barons or Peers obtained in the close two Charters or Laws for the ascertaining their Rights by which neither their Lives Liberties or Estates could ever be in danger any more from any Arbitrary Power in the Prince and so the good Government of England which was before this time like the Law of Nature onely written in the hearts of Men came to be exprest in Parchment and remain a Record in Writing though these Charters gave us no more than what was our own before After these Charters were made there could not chuse but happen some encroachment upon them but so long as the Peers kept their greatness there was no breaches but what were immediately made up in Parliament which when-ever they assembled did in the first place confirm the Charters and made very often Interpretations upon them for the benefit of the People witness the Statute de Tallagio non concedendo and many others But to come nearer the giving the Doctor an answer you may please to understand that not long after the framing of these forementioned Charters there did arise a Grievance not foreseen or provided for by them and it was such an one that had beaten down the Government at once if it had not been Redressed in an Orderly way This was the Intermission of Parâ—iaments which could not be called but â—y the Prince and he not doing of it â—hey ceast to be Assembled for some years if this had not been speedily reâ—edied the Barons must have put on â—heir Armour again for who can Imaâ—ine that such brisk Assertors of their â—ights could have acquiesced in an Omission that ruin'd the Foundation of the Government which consisting of King Lords and Commons and having at that time Marched near Five hundred years upon three Leggs must then have gone on hopping upon one which could it have gone forward as was impossible whilest Property continued where it was yet would have rid but a little way Nor can it be wonder'd at that our great Men made no provision against this Grievance in their Charters because it was impossible for them to imagine that their Prince who had so good a share in this Government should go about to destroy it and to take that burden upon himself which by our Constitution was undeniably to be divided between him and his Subjects And therefore divers of the great Men of those times speaking with that excellent Prince King Edward the First about it
and considering too that all the power they leave him will serve but to enable him to defend us the better from Popery and Arbitrary power for which latter Monarchy was first Instituted Thus we may exercise during a Parliament or two love-tricks between the Prince and his people and imitate the hony-moon that continued for about two years after his Majesties Restauration till the ill management of affairs and the new grevances that shall arise which will be sure never to fail till our true cure be effected notwithstanding the care of the new King and his Councellors shall awaken the discontents of the people and then they will curse the time in which they made this election of a Prince and the great men for not hindring them Then men will be reckoning up the discontents of the Peers sometime after they had made a rash choice of H. the 7th in the field who had then no title when they saw how he made use of the power they gave him to lessen their greatness and to fortifie himself upon their ruins when it comes to this and that the Governing party comes to be but a little faction the people who never know the true cause of their distemper will be looking out abroad who has the Lawful title if the next Heir be not in the mean time with an Army of English and Strangers in the field here as is most likely and look upon the Prince of Orange or the next of kin as their future Saviour in case the Duke be dead in the mean time and so the cause of all their distrust taken away thus most men not only discontented persons but the people in general lookt upon his Majesty that now is as their future deliverer during our late distractions when his condition was so weak that he had scarce wherewithall to subsist and his enemies powerful at home and victorious abroad which will not be I fear our case I Prophesy then because you will have me use this word that if Nobles or people make any such unfortunate choice as this during the distractions we may be in upon his Majesties death we shall not only miss our cure or have it deferred till another Government make it but remain in the confusion we now suffer under and besides that shall be sure to feel first or last the calamity of a Civil and Foreign War and in the mean time to be in perpetual fear of it and suffer all the burden and charge which is necessary to provide for it besides all the other ill consequences of a standing Army To conclude I assure you in the Faith of a Christian that I have made this discourse solely and singly out of zeal and affection to the Interest of my Countrey and not at all with the least intention to favour or promote the Cause or Interest of the D. of York or to disparage the Duke of Monmouth from whom I never received the least unkindness nor ever had the honour to be in his Company and to whom I shall ever pay respect suitable to his high Birth and Merit Noble Ven. Well Sir your Reasoning in this point has extreamly satisfied me and the Doctor I suppose was so before as he averred therefore pray let us go on where we left Eng. Gent. I cannot take so much upon me as to be Dictator in the Method of our Cure since either of you is a thousand times better qualified for such an Office and therefore shall henceforth desire to be an Auditor Doct. Pray Sir let us not spend time in Compliments but be pleased to proceed in this business and we doubt not but as you have hitherto wonderfully delighted us so you will gratifie us in concluding it Eng. Gent. I see I must obey you but pray help me and tell me in the first place whether you do not both believe that as the causa causarum of all our Distractions is as has been proved the breach of our Government so that the immediate Causes are two First The great distrust on both sides between the King and his People and Parliament the first fearing that his Power will be so lessened by degrees that at length it will not be able to keep the Crown upon his head And the latter seeing all things in disorder and that the Laws are not executed which is the second of the two Causes fear the King intends to change the Government and be Arbitrary Noble Ven. I am a Stranger but though I never reflected so much upon the Original Cause as I have done since I heard you discourse of it yet I ever thought that those two were the Causes of the Unquietness of this Kingdom I mean the Jealousie between the King and his People and the Inexecution of the great Laws of Calling Parliaments Annually and letting them sit to dispatch their Affairs I understand this in the time of His Majesties Grand-Father and Father more than in His own Reign Eng. Gent. Then whoever can absolutely lay these two Causes asleep for ever will arrive to a perfect Cure which I conceive no way of doing but that the King have a great deal more Power or a great deal less And you know that what goes out of the King must go into the People and so vice versa Insomuch that the People must have a great deal more Power or a great deal less Now it is no question but either of these two would rather increase their Power than diminish it so that if this cannot be made up by the Wisdom of this Age we may see in the next that both the King will endeavour to be altogether without a Parliament and the Parliament to be without a King Doct. I begin to smell that you would be nibbling at the pretence which some had before his Majesties Restauration of a Commonwealth or Democracy Eng. Gent. No I abhor the thoughts of wishing much less endeavouring any such thing during these Circumstances we are now in That is under Oaths of Obedience to a Lawful King And truly if any Themistocles should make to me such a Proposal I should give the same Judgment concerning it that Aristides did in such a Case The Story is short After the War between the Greeks and the Persians was ended and Xerxes driven out of Greece the whole Fleet of the Grecian Confederates except that of Athens which was gone home lay in a great Arsenal such as were then in use upon the Coast of Attica during their abode there Themistocles harrangues one day the People of Athens as was then the Custome and tells them that he had a design in his head which would be of Infinite profit and advantage to the Commonwealth But that it could not be executed without the Order and Authority of them and that it did likewise require secresie and if it were declared there in the Market-place where Strangers as well as Citizens might be present it could not be concealed and therefore proposed it to
Grievances and making provision for the future execution of the Lawes and whenever it is applyed to frustrate those ends it is a violation of Right and infringement of the King's Coronation-Oath in which there is this Clause That he shall Confirmare consuetudines which in the Latine of those times is leges quas vulgus elegerit I know some Criticks who are rather Grammarians than Lawyers have made a distinction between elegerim and elegero and will have it That the King Swears to such Laws as the people shall have chosen and not to those they shall chuse But in my Opinion if that Clause had been intended onely to oblige the King to execute the Laws made already it might have been better exprest by servare consuctudines than by confirmare consuetudines besides that he is by another clause in the same Oath sworn to execute all the Laws But I shall leave this Controversie undecided those who have a desire to see more of it may look into those quarrelling Declarations pro and con about this matter which preceded our unhappy Civil Wars This is certain that there are not to be found any Statutes that have passed without being presented to his Majesty or to some commissioned by him but whether such Addresses were intended for Respect and Honour to His Majesty as the Speaker of the House of Commons and the Lord Mayor of London are brought to him I leave to the Learned to Discourse onely thus much we may affirm That there never were yet any Parliamentary Requests which did highly concern the Publick presented to any King and by him refused but such denials did produce very dismal effects as may be seen in our Histories ancient and late it being certain that both the Barons Wars and our last dismal Combustions proceeded from no other cause than the denial of the Princes then reigning to consent to the desires of the States of the Kingdom and such hath been the wisdom and goodness of our present gracious Prince that in twenty years and somewhat more for which time we have enjoy'd him since his happy Restauration he hath not exercis'd his Negative Voice towards more than one publick Bill and that too was to have continued in force if it had passed into an Act but for six Weeks being for raising the Militia for so long time and as for the private Bills which are matters of meer grace it is unreasonable his Majesty should be refused that Right that every Englishman enjoys which is not to be obliged to dispence his favours but where he pleases But for this point of the Negative Vote it is possible that when we come to Discourse of the Cure of our Political Distemper some of you will propose the clearing and explanation of this matter and of all others which may concern the King's Power and the Peoples Rights Noble Ven. But pray Sir have not the House of Peers a Negative Voice in all Bills how come they not to be obliged to use it for the Publick Good Eng. Gent So they are no doubt and the Commons too but there is a vast difference between a deliberative Vote which the Peers have with their Negative and that in the Crown to blast all without deliberating The Peers are Co-ordinate with the Commons in presenting and hammering of Laws and may send Bills down to them as well as receive any from them excepting in matters wherein the People are to be Taxed and in this our Government imitates the best and most perfect Commonwealths that ever were where the Senate assisted in the making of Laws and by their wisdom and dexterity polisht fil'd and made ready things for the more populous Assemblies and sometimes by their gravity and moderation reduced the People to a Calmer State and by their authority and credit stem'd the Tide and made the Waters quiet giving the People time to come to themselves And therefore if we had no such Peerage now upon the old Constitution yet we should be necessitated to make an artificial Peerage or Senate in stead of it which may assure our present Lords that though their Dependences and Power are gone yet that we cannot be without them and that they have no need to fear an annihilation by our Reformation as they suffered in the late mad times But I shall speak a word of the peoples Rights and then shew how this brave and excellent Government of England came to decay The People by the Fundamental Laws that is by the Constitution of the Government of England have entire freedome in their Lives Properties and their Persons nether of which can in the least suffer but according to the Laws already made or to be made hereafter in Parliament and duly publisht and to prevent any oppression that might happen in the execution of these good Laws which are our Birth-right all Tryals must be by twelve Men of our equals and of our Neighbourhood These in all Civil Causes judge absolutely and decide the matter of Fact upon which the matter of Law depends but if where matter of Law is in question these twelve Men shall refuse to find a special Verdict at the direction of the Court the Judge cannot Controul it but their Verdict must be Recorded But of these matters as also of Demurrers Writs of Errour and Arrests of Judgment c. I have discours'd to this Gentleman who is a Stranger before now neither do's the understanding of the Execution of our Municipal Laws at all belong to this discourse Onely it is to be noted that these Juries or twelve Men in all Trials or Causes which are Criminal have absolute Power both as to matter of Law and Fact except the Party by Demurrer confess the matter of Fact and take it out of their hands And the first question the Officer asks the Foreman when they all come in to deliver their Verdict is this Is he Guilty in manner or form as he is Indicted or not Guilty which shews plainly that they are to Examine and Judge as well whether and how far the Fact committed is Criminal as whether the person charged hath committed that Fact But though by the Corruption of these times the infallible consequences of a broken frame of Government this Office of the Juries and Right of Englishmen have been of late question'd yet it hath been strongly and effectually vindicated by a learned Author of late to whom I refer you for more of this matter I shall say no more of the Rights of the People but this one thing That neither the King nor any by Authority from him hath any the least Power or Jurisdiction over any Englishman but what the Law gives them and that although all Commissions and Writs go out in the King's name yet his Majesty hath no right to Issue out any Writ with advice of his Council or otherwise excepting what come out of his Courts nor to alter any Clause in a Writ or add any thing to it And
which made him very well digest the name of being a Servant Eng. Gent. This is the very Case but yet Service in both these Cases is no Inheritance and when there comes a Peaceable King in France who will let his Neighbours be quiet or one that is covetous these fine Gentlemen will lose their Employments and their King this Prop and the rather because these Gentlemen do not depend as was said before in any kind upon the great Lords whose standing Interest is at Court and so cannot in a change be by them carried over to advance the Court-designs against their own good and that of their Country And thus much is sufficient to be said concerning France As for Spain I believe there is no Country excepting Sweden in Christendom where the Property has remained so intirely the same it was at the beginning and the reason is the great and strict care that is taken to hinder the Lands from passing out of the old owners hands for except it be by Marriages no man can acquire another man's Estate nor can any Grandee or Titulado or any other Hidalgo there alienate or ingage his Paternal or Maternal Estate otherwise than for his Life nor can alter Tenures or extinguish Services or dismember Mannors for to this the Princes consent must be had which he never gives till the matter be debated in the Consejo de Camera which is no Junta or secret Consejo de Guerras but one wherein the great men of the Kingdom intervene and wherein the great matters concerning the preservation of the Government are transacted not relating to Foreign Provinces or Governments but to the kingdom of Castile and Leon of which I only speak now It is true there have been one or two exceptions against this severe Rule since the great calamities of Spain and two great Lordships have been sold the Marquisate del Monastero to an Assent ista Genoese and another to Sebastian Cortiza a Portuguese of the same Profession but both these have bought the intire Lordships without curtailing or altering the condition in which these two great Estates were before and notwithstanding this hath caused so much repining amongst the natural Godos as the Castilians call themselves still for glory that I believe this will never be drawn into an Example hereafter Now the Property remaining the same the Government doth so too and the King 's Domestick Government over his natural Spaniards is very gentle whatever it be in his Conquer'd Provinces and the Kings there have very great advantages of keeping their great men by whom they Govern in good temper by reason of the great Governments they have to bestow upon them both in Europe and the Indies which changing every three years go in an Age through all the Grandees which are not very numerous Besides Castile having been in the time of King Roderigo over-run and Conquered by the Moors who Governed there Despotically some hundreds of years before it could be recovered again by the old Inhabitants who fled to the Mountains When they were at length driven out the Count of Castile found a Tax set upon all Commodities whatsoever by the Moors in their Reign called Alcaval which was an easie matter to get continued when their old Government was restored by the Cortes or States and so it has continued ever since as the Excise has done here which being imposed by them who drove and kept out the King does now since his happy Restauration remain a Revenue of the Crown This Alcaval or Excise is a very great Revenue and so prevented for some time the necessities of the Crown and made the Prince have the less need of asking Relief of his People the ordinary cause of disgust so that the Cortes or Assembly of the States has had little to do of late though they are duly assembled every year but seldom contradict what is desired by the Prince for there are no greater Idolaters of their Monarch in the World than the Castilians are nor who drink deeper of the Cup of Loyalty so that in short the Government in Spain is as ours was in Queen Elizabeths time or in the first year after his now Majesties Return when the Parliament for a time Complimented the Prince who had by that means both his own Power and the Peoples which days I hope to see again upon a better and more lasting Foundation But before I leave Spain I must say a word of the Kingdom of Arragon which has not at all times had so quiet a state of their Monarchy as Castile hath enjoyed for after many Combustions which happened there concerning their Fueros and Privilegios which are their Fundamental Laws the King one day coming to his Seat in Parliament and making his demands as was usual they told him that they had a Request to make to him first and he withdrawing thereupon for he had no right of sitting there to hear their Debates they fell into discourse how to make their Government subsist against the encroachments of the Prince upon them and went very high in their Debates whch could not chuse but come to the king's ear who walked in a gallery in the same Palace to expect the issue and being in great Passion was seen to draw out his Dagger very often and thrust it again into the sheath and heard to say Sangre ha de costar which coming to the knowledg of the Estates they left off the Debate and sent some of their number to him to know what blood it should cost and whether he meant to murder any body He drew out his Dagger again and pointing it to his breast he said Sangre de Reys leaving them in doubt whether he meant that his Subjects would kill him or that he would do it himself However that Parliament ended very peaceably and a famous settlement was there and then made by which a great person was to be chosen every Parliament who should be as it were an Umpire between the King and his people for the execution of the Laws and the preservation of their Government their Fueros and Privilegios which are their Courts of Justice and their Charters This Officer was called El Justicia d' Arragon and his duty was to call together the whole Power of the Kingdom whenever any of the aforesaid Rights were by open force violated or invaded and to admonish the King whenever he heard of any clandestine Councils among them to that effect It was likewise made Treason for any person of what quality soever to refuse to repair upon due summons to any place where this Justicia should erect his Standard or to withdraw himself without leave much more to betray him or to revolt from him Besides in this Cortes or Parliament the old Oath which at the first Foundation of their State was ordered to be taken by the King at his admittance was again revived and which is in these words Nos que valemos tanto camo nos y podemos
have a better Game to play nor a better Adversary to deal with than one who leaps in over the Heads of almost all the Protestant Princes Families abroad besides some Papists who are greater and when we have been harrassed with Wars and the miseries that accompany it some few years you shall have all these fine People who now run after him very weary of their new Prince I would not say any thing to disparage a Person so highly born and of so early merit but this I may say That if a Lawful Title should be set on foot in his favour and a thousand Dutch Hosts and such like should swear a Marriage yet no sober Man that is not blinded with prejudice will believe That our King whom none can deny to have an excellent understanding would ever Marry a Woman so much his Inferiour as this great Persons Mother was and this at a time when his Affairs were very low and he had no visible or rational hopes to be restored to the Possession of his Kingdoms but by an assistance which might have been afforded him by means of some great Foreign Alliance Well but to leave all this do these Men pretend that the Duke of Monmouth shall be declared Successour to the Crown in Parliament with the King 's Concurence or without it if without it you must make a War for it and I am sure that no Cause can be stated upon such a point that will not make the Assertors and Undertakers of it be condemned by all the Politicians and Moralists of the World and by the Casuists of all Religions and so by consequence it is like to be a very unsuccesful War If you would have this declar'd with the King's Consent either you suppose the Royal assent to be given when the King has his liberty either to grant it or not grant it to Dissolve the Parliament or not Dissolve it without ruine or prejudice to his Affairs If in the first Case it is plain he will not grant it because he cannot do it without confessing his Marriage to that Duke's Mother which he hath already declared against in a very solemn manner and caused it to be Registred in Chancery and which not only no good Subject can chuse but believe but which cannot be doubted by any rational person for it would be a very unnatural and indeed a thing unheard of that a Father who had a Son in Lawful Matrimony and who was grown to perfection and had signalized himself in the Wars and who was ever intirely beloved by him should disinherit him by so solemn an asseveration which must be a false one too to cause his Brother to succeed in his room And whereas it is pretended by some that His Majesties danger from his Brothers Counsels and Designs may draw from him something of this beside that they do not much Complement the King in this it is clear his Brother is not so Popular but that he may secure him when he pleases without hazard if there were any ground for such an apprehension But we must in the next place suppose that the King's Affairs were in such a posture that he could deny the Parliament nothing without very great mischief and inconvenience to himself and the Kingdom then I say I doubt not but the Wisdom of the Parliament will find out divers Demands and Requests to make to His Majesty of greater benefit and more necessary for the good of his People than this would be which draws after it not only a present unsetledness but the probable hazard of Misery and Devastation for many years to come as has been proved So that as on the one side the Parliament could not make a more unjustfiable War than upon this Account so they could not be Dissolved upon any occasion wherein the People would not shew less discontent and resentment and for which the Courtiers would not hope to have a better pretext to strive in the next Choice to make their Arts and endeavours more successful in the Election of Members more suitable to their Designs for the continuance of this present mis-government For if this Parliament do mis-spend the Peoples Mettle which is now up in driving that Nail which cannot go they must look to have it cool and so the Ship of this Commonwealth which if they please may be now in a fair way of Entering into a Safe Harbour will be driven to Sea again in a Storm and must hope for and expect another favourable Wind to save them and God knows when that may come Doct. But Sir there are others who not minding whether the Parliament will consider the Duke of Monmouths concern so far as to debate it do yet pretend that there is great reason to keep up the peoples affections to him and possibly to foment the opinion they have of his Title to the Crown to the end that if the King should die re infectà that is before such time as the Government is redrest or the Duke of York disabled by Law to Succeed the people might have an Head under whose Command and Conduct they might stand upon their Guard till they had some way secured their Government and Religion Eng. Gent. What you have started is not a thing that can safely be discoursed of nor is it much material to our design which is intended to speculate upon our Government and to shew how it is decayed I have industriously avoided the argument of Rebellion as I find it coucht in modern Polititians because most Princes hold that all Civil Wars in mixt Monarchies must be so and a Polititian as well as an Oratour ought to be Vir bonus so ought to discourse nothing how rational soever in these points under a peaceable Monarchy which gives him protection but what he would speak of his Prince if all his Councel were present I will tell you only that these Authors hold that nothing can be alledged to excuse the taking Arms by any people in opposition to their Prince from being Crimen Lesae Majestatis but a claim to a lawful Jurisdiction or Co-ordination in the Government by which they may judg of and defend their own Rights and so pretend to fight for and defend the Government for though all do acknowledg that Populi salus is and ought to be the most Supreme or Soveraign Law in the world yet if we should make private persons how numerous soever judg of Populi salus we should have all the Risings and Rebellions that should ever be made justified by that title as happened in France when La Guerre du bien publique took that name which was raised by the insatiable ambition of a few Noblemen and by correspondency and confederacy with Charles Son of the Duke of Burgundy and other enemies to that Crown Doct. But would you have our people do nothing then if the King should be Assassinated or die of a natural death Eng. Gent. You ask me a very fine question Doctor