A CONFERENCE Between two Souldiers Meeting on the Roade the one being of the Army in ENGLAND The other of the Army in SCOTLAND As the one was comming from London the other from Edinbrough The first Part. November 1659. A Conference between two Souldiers Meeting on the Roade the one being of the Army in England the other of the Army in Scotland England WEll met fellow-souldier whence doe you come Scotland I come from Scotland Engl. What News from thence we heare you are beginning a new Warr. Scotl. No no what we doe is in pursuance of our good Old Cause to stand up for the Parliament which we heare you have forceably interrupted and turned out Engl. I pray you let us step aside and a little reason together What is that good Old Cause so much spoken of Were you a Souldier at the first beginning of the warr and can remember what was then Declared as the cause of our taking up Armes Scotl. Yes and then I went out for the preservation and defence of the true Protestant Religion the Kings Person the Priviledges of Parliament and the Laws and Liberties of the subject Engl. Let us passe by that of the Protestant Religion which was soon after left out of our Commissions for we needed not fight for a Religion but that we might enjoy Liberty to exercise our Religion How did you pursue the Cause Did you who are now the Army in Scotland consent to the taking away the Life of the King whom you were to defend who by the Laws of the Land was our Chief Ruler Scotl. Yes for when upon better information we found That Kings were made for the people and not the people for Kings That men are freeborn into the World and not any mans slaves that no man ought to have a Native and Hereditary Right over others But that the power under God is originally in the people and to be derived from thence and that all trusts are conditionall We beleeved that the King was as well bound to defend his people as his people were to be subject to him and that if he fayled of the one they were discharged of the other els the King might destroy them at his pleasure and finding that the King had betrayed his trust and endeavoured the ruine of his people we took our selves not onely bound to defend our selves against him but also to call him to an accompt as guilty of the highest crymes for destroying the end of his trust making his power an advantage to our ruine Engl. Then you were of our mind That the safety of the People is the supreme Law and therefore you consented to take away the King What did you for the Priviledges of Parliament Doe you not remember That there was an Act of Parliament to which the King consented as well as both Houses That the Parliament nor either House should not be dissolved without their own consents or an Act of Parliament to be passed for that purpose Did you not also consent to the taking away of the House of Lords which was one of the Houses of Parliament Scotl. When we found that the House of Lords as well as the King exercised an Authority by Prerogative over the people without their consent and deputation it was seen fit to lay them aside also as inconsistent with the peoples Liberties Engl. Was not this the highest breach of Parliament Priviledges not onely to interrupt but wholly to dissolve one of the Houses of Parliament and that not for one Session onely but for ever And I pray you when Kings and Lords were taken away which were two essentiall parts of the Parliament was not the Parliament then dissolved he being dead by whose Writs they were called which gave them the being of a Parliament and could live no longer then himselfe Scotl. No for the House of Commons could not be dissolved without their own consent and an Act to be passed for that purpose Engl. How could they be a Parliament which could doe no Act of a Parliament Or how could they be dissolved by an Act when no act of Parliament could be passed for it they had taken away the Lords who were to advise and the King who was to consent Scotl. It s very true and therefore they presently changed the Government and Declared themselves to be a Parliament without King or House of Lords Engl Did they not thereby dissolve themselves and cast off their former power And then from whom did they derive their new Authority the People onely chose them to goe up and to consider and advise of the great things of the Nation with the King and Lords and not to take all the power to themselves both the Legislative and Executive to doe what they list and as long as they pleased making the former Act of Parliament which had no such intention a colour for it But since you are so much for the House of Commons whether I pray did you consent to the turning out so many Members at severall times Scotl. Yes for we found that the honest party of the House who were for carrying on the good Old Cause were over-voted by a Major Party and we were forced to it or els our Cause had been lost Engl. And were not those most high breaches of the Priviledges of that House And how could the remaining party be called a free Parliament The People chose the whole Number and gave them power and after you had turned out whom you pleased should the People be bound by the rest were they the Peoples or not rather your Parliament But doe ye remember when those we called the honest Party came from the House to the Army and brought their Speaker with them and left the rest who over-voted them Did not you own the lesser Party and forthwith goe to London and turn out the other I pray by what Law was it done and whether if either party could be called a Parliament the lesser or the greater And whether did you not in 1653. consent to or afterward approve the turning out the remainder of the whole House Scotl. I must confesse we did so and were still forced to it for carrying on that Cause which we were called unto and tooke our selves bound in Conscience to prosecute for the defence of the Peoples Liberties Engl. Well It seems you grant that for the Liberty of the People you consented in stead of defending to destroy the Kings Person in stead of preserving Parliament Priviledges wholly to take away the House of Lords and over and over to interrupt and turn out the Members of the lower House and at last to end the sitting of the whole And I pray you Have not divers Elections been since made by the People which by an Act made by the King Lords and Commons they had power to doe make voyd and supercede all former Authority derived from them if any was in being Scotl. I am not fit to judge of these things But I
rather esteemed the great Bulwarks of the peoples Freedomes which neither Kings nor Parliaments could alter And therefore upon this new Conquest over Monarchy we beleeve it is the duty of those to whom God hath given the Victory to see such Fundamentall Constitutions setled as are consonant to the Law of God and Principles of Justice and Righteousnesse and that just Freedom both as to the inward and outward man which belongs to every man as a Member of the Creation of God the great work that God hath been doing amongst us and will carry on and bring to passe in the whole Earth and to see the same so fortified and secured with provision against all kinds of violation that the people may be no more put to make a new purchase of it Scotl. Though you should come to a settlement that may have much good in it I cannot see how you can secure it the next Parliament will clayme an absolute power and will goe neer to alter it if it be but even to shew their Authority Engl. If such a spirit shall be in the Parliament as to alter good things setled How much further off would they be to lay such a Foundation and therefore such expedients must be used as will prevent that mischief and yet leave the Parliament Free which must be provided for in the Forme of Government Scotl. I pray what Government doe you intend to set up and seeing you clayme the right of Forming a Government what must others expect from you Engl. We that is to say the Army onely doe not clayme any such right But we that is to say the Body of the good people adhearents to this Cause in all the severall Nations who continue still faithfull thereunto whereof we are a part and in our Brethrens stead left to defend both them and our selves in prosecution of the work till it be finished doe make this clayme not that we desire to have the Government in our hands not that we desire the Sword should Rule not that we desire to abridge any other man of his Liberty or that he should be a slave much lesse a subject to us But we being called together in defence of those just rights in common which belong to us and every man in particular and having obtained successe to our just Cause We cannot we dare not lest not onely the ruine of our selves but also of our posterities and not onely so but the whole Nations whom God hath given it into our powers to preserve as well as our selves should be layd to our charge part a sunder nor suffer our selves to be divided till our Liberties and the Liberties of all men be secured Scotl. But still you will be Judges your selves Engl Our own innocency and integrity is that which justifies us in the fight of God from whom we have our strength who hath judged for us And it is not reasonable that we should stand at the Judgement Seat of our Enemies nor of those who have not known our Cause nor put their hands to carry it on Had all the people of England with one consent taken part with us there had been no such difference as to persons or interests But you know the greater part of the Nation were against us and if they might be Judges you as well as we understand what would be the issue though in our principles their Liberties as well as our own will be secured Scotl. I pray you tell me what those Principles are Engl. I may say in short all our Principles are summed up in one founded upon that just and righteous Rule wherein is fulfilled the whole Law and the Prophets As you would have men doe unto you even so doe ye unto them which includes in it the perfect Freedom of Conscience of Person and of Estate and which we onely waite and long to see established Scotl. If that be your Principle I hope we shall never differ for we doe with as much earnestnesse as your selves long to see such a Government and Laws setled as stand upon that Foundation And if we shall confesse that the late Assembly was no Parliament but that their authority is perfecty determined that you had good Reason and Right to end their sitting and ought to proceed to pursue the ends of the great cause of just Liberty It will not at all prejudice the rights of the people and I beleeve that generally the people would be as little satisfied as your selves to have that Assembly rule over them But yet these things seem strange and contrary to our ancient Laws and Government and now we know not where nor how to come to a settlement Engl. If you look upon the Parliament and their proceedings or on the Army and theirs you will find that in our whole course there was seldome any such agreement which the Rule of former Laws and Constitutions of Government that the actions of either could be clearly and fully justified thereby any longer then the Law of Successe and Conquest did uphold them and the inward warrant of Justice and Righteousnesse did encourage them in such their actings Neither could it be otherwise those Laws that were made for the support of our former Government being as contrary to Principles of just Freedom as the Governours or Government it selfe Scotl. But I hope you will not thence inferr that therefore you may breake and make voyd all other our good Laws at your pleasure Engl. All Laws that are just and equall will be found to spring from the Root of all power the Law of God which is the Foundation of all Laws that are just and as they are consonant thereunto they will agree with that Principle which we own and hold forth and desire to be found in And we shall be sorry if any shall accuse us of the violation of any such Laws we hope they cannot Scotl. Truely for our parts many of us we can say it we would not fight in a personall quarrell not for the best of Persons neither for Members of a Parliament nor for the Officers of the Army but for the good Cause of justice freedome and Righteousnesse in which we have been engaged that onely will God blesse who respects no mans Person that worke onely will he carry on and therein I am convinced by your Discouse is the power and true Authority and all who are found standing in it will need no other warrant And now Fellow-souldier I must take my leave being glad of this happy Meeting and shall change my purpose of going any further Southward and shall returne immediately to my Brethren in Scotland who I hope will be much satisfied to heare of these things Onely I would faine have spoken a little with you about the Government you intend to settle But in a few dayes if you will promise to meet me I hope to returne and have a better opportunity Till then I bid you Farewell And so shaking Hands they parted The end of the first Part.
as the Parliament themselves as best deserving enployed in the highest Trusts with the Army and of whose fidelity they had been sufficiently assured And you had no reason to be offended at it for your Generall was one so great esteem had the Army of him But we may well suppose That had the Army pitched on some persons of the Parliament they had not been blamed for asking Generall Officers which clearly appears by those mens carriage who while they oppose the Army carry on their own designe to get themselves named and then with greediness accept it But I pray why does your Generall and Chief Officers blame us as having a designe to bring the Armies of Scotland and Ireland in subjection to the Army of England and that to nine or ten Persons and it may be those to a single One May we not much rather suspect that the Parliament who puts the whole trust of the Armyes of the three Nations into seven hands which are lesse then nine or ten had a more dangerous purpose Your Generall in Scotland they name for one Lieutenant Generall Ludlowe who was to be in Ireland for another Colonell Overton who was to be at Hull for a third Then three of the remaining party which they had prepared all of one mind might doe with Generall Fleetwood what they pleased and how soon one of those three might out-wit or over-perswade if not over-power the other two let any man judge and whether the Parliaments way or Armies desire was more like to set up a single Person And thus were the Armies of the three Nations which hitherto have been wisely managed by the Generall with the advice of his Councill of Officers brought to the will of three persons and those such as the Army seldom knew in the Feild and of whose Spirits and Principles they knew much and heard more either to carry on their designes or to be turned out at their pleasure Scotl. I confesse now you say very much and I begin to be sensible of a greater danger then I could before imagine Engl. Nay my Fellow-souldier this is not all But to pursuâ— their designe further they hastily passe an Act. That it should be Treason for any Man to Receive or Pay any Monies whaâ—soever for Publique use without consent of the People in Parliament If they continue to sit It appears they Resolved not to give the Army a Farthing till they became subject to their wills and quit their Interest in rhe Good Cause we have bin ingaged in but rather to provoke and encourage the People to rise up against them What sad and dangerous consequences might have followed we may well conceive but we dare hardly suffer to enter into our thoughâ—s God of his mercy to the poor People of England and to rescue their almost lost Liberties hath we hope prevented them Scotl. But surely the Parliament intended onely to bring the power of the Army into the peoples hands and there to leave it for it could not be out of any selfe desigue they passed a Vote not to sit longer then May next Engl. Alas I have you already to put the Sword into the peoples hands that is the Body of the Common people is at once to make voyd all that ever we have been doing That the Sword while it is in the Armyes hand is in the peoples that is the good peoples hand and for them whom God hath given the Victory and Power unto we doe plainly Declare and that we are in their steads being in Number as many as at present needs the rest of our Brethren are in other services and in their Callings and we are one in interest with them as also for the good of all yea even our Enemies that in the end of all our Travells Peace and Righteousnesse and Justice might abound to every one And as to what you say That they passed a Vote to sit no longer then May next Doe not you know how easie a thing it is one Day to Vote and the next to unvote What preparation did they make then to end their sitting Was not their great and main Worke to settle the Government I pray what progresse did they make in that Had not they spent halfe their time meerly to secure themselves and get all power into their own hands and scarce took notice of the Government And if you say That they had yet time enough for that five or six Moneths before them it seems strange that in five Moneths they can now doe that which they could not in five Years before But to settle the Government is not all the whole Nation is to be brought into complyance with it and all things to be regulated accordingly and if they could have setled the Government in the first Moneth we conceive there had been work enough for them to have done the whole Year after in pursuant thereof and so those will find that come to undertake it But that they intended to spin out the time and put a necessity upon all to have them sit longer further appears in that they kept the whole Nations of Scotland and Ireland without any Civill Judicature and all Offices both Civill and Military in this Nation almost in their own hands giving onely very short times both to the Lieutenant Generall of the Army and also to the Judges that so all things might either dye with themselves and leave the three Nations in confusion or all men might consent of necessity that they might continue None were fit for any thing but themselves no others worthy to be trusted How many worthy men stood ready and willing to contribute their assistance which might have enabled the House to have done more in a Moneth then themselves alone by a Parliamentary way could doe in six What desires were made that it might be heard what honest Men had to offer concerning a Government the great concern of the Nation and all People therein and that a Committee for that purpose might be appointed that so we might have the advantage of the choycest Lights in the Nation But as if they would make that all Wisedom as well as Power was confined within the Walls of that House they would keep all to themselves And if they intended as you say to sit no longer then May next so much greater is their blame to subject all to their Successors of whose regular Election notwithstanding all the limitations and qualifications they could provide we could not be assured nor of their adhearence afterwards to the Good Cause of these Nations Scotl. But alas now you have dissolved all that had any face of Civill Authority in the Nation Nothing remaines but the Sword to Rule and Governe which is a thing we hate as much as the people can doe Engl. That which we have dissolved its true had the Face but was no more the Civill Authority of the Nation then the Sword for by vertue of that have they Ruled That there was
not both a good Government and Civill Authority setled was onely their own fault and their neglect was the cause of their first interruption and our late Innovations mâ—n finding in so many Years so little Fruit from a Parliament which made even the name of a Parliament loathsome to all Men. But it seems while they can Rule with the Sword it s well enough and a good Civill Authority But when the Sword cannot fulfill their wills then all must be Rebels and Traytors And all that now they went about or chiefly was to get the Sword into their own hands but what they would have done after few know onely we may guesse by their former carryage Scotl. But I pray what doe you intend further I hope you doe not purpose alwayes to keep up the Sword When shall we have a Parâ—iament for that onely will satisfie us and the people Engl. To Governe by the Sword is not more hatefull to any then our selves and had the late Assembly gone about the Framing and setling such a Government as might have answered the ends of our late warrs and troubles they had taken a wiser course to have engaged both Army and People to them And as for the Calling of a Parliament so soon as a Forme of Government is agreed upon such Principles and Fundamentall Constitutions as may fully secure our dear bought Liberties you will heare that the Calling of a Parliament will be the first work Scotl. How when a Forme of Government is agreed on I pray who must agree in that Can any doe it but a Parliament Engl. In England heretofore Parliaments never had it in their power to meddle with or dispute the Forme of our Government that was never in question before them Kings were alwayes granted to be our Chief Rulers and therefore here is the Ground of your mistake The difference betwixt King and Parliament was not about the Government but the Laws by which we were to be Governed which after a Government setled will be left to Parliaments as before Scotl. Who then must appoint a Government Engl. You must consider That our warr hath not been betwixt the people of a whole Nation wherein all were of one mind and a Forreigner but a Civill Warr amongst our selves one party against another and a third party looking on And finding in the pursuite of that just Cause of Liberty which was begun That the very Forme of Government was as well burthensome as the Ruling Person and his Prerogative we saw it necessary to lay aside both together which though it begat us new Enemies and was opposed by many yet God was pleased to prosper and give us the Conquest over them And now to tell you the truth in plain termes we conceive that in deciding this Controversie God hath not onely given power to those that were instruments in carrying on his work amongst us to secure their own Liberties but also to see such a new Forme of Government setled as will fully establish the Rights of all other men and deliver them from that bondage under which they have long layne both as to the inner and outward man from which God hath now rescued them with a strong hand as he did our Fathers of old from Egyptian slavery And we conceive it is not onely the right but the duty of all those whom God hath kept stedfast to carry on this work not onely to see a Forme of Government setled in roome of that which is cast down But such a Forme as will in the Principles and Fundamentall Constitutions thereof fully settle and secure our Liberties as Men and Christians the summe of that good Cause in which we have been so long engaged And that they ought not to give up the power which God hath given unto them unto the common newtrall and disaffected spirit of the Nation to Judge of and determine what hath been the quarrell and what shall satisfie and be the price of so much Blood and Treasure which is the onely cause why we dislike a Free Parliament that is a Parliament chosen by the body of the people Newters and Enemies as well as Friends Scotl. Truely we feare a Free Parliament that is a Parliament chosen by the whole Body of the People as well as you and herein we are in a straite We are satisfied That a Parliament is the best Government and yet a Free Parliament will destroy us and that chiefly makes us call for the old Parliament which of necessity even for selfe security we conceived would adhere to our Cause Engl. As to the old Parliament I have said enough and if you will have more I pray what Jurisdiction had they over Ireland and Scotland those by whom they were not chosen was it by the peoples consent or our Conquest I hint this to shew you how much they have walked by our Principles which they would now condemne and have they not still owned us in all things we did till 1653. and justifie us in turning out all others till it came to their own turne that did as justly deserve it And as for Parliaments viz. Representatives Trustees or Deputies of the Peace we are cleare with you That all power being in the people their Delegated power ought to be Supreme yet consider their Trust is still conditionall and therefore liable to the same question and punishment as Kings or others and we are as much for Parliaments as you can be after a Government setled And seeing our former Government is dissolved I meane Monarchy we look upon the good people of England as standing with the Sword in their hands which is their highest State of Soveraignty including in it all lower Magisteriall Offices not subjected to the Rules of any Forme of Civill Government but what themselves orderly Assembled for that purpose shall think fit to make which being once agreed and setled We doe Professe and Declare our free and ready subjection thereunto and either to returne to our particular Vocations if there can be found sufficient intrinsecall strength and vigour in any such frame of settlement our condition considered as to support it selfe against visible opposition 〈◊〉 to be servants to the people to secure the same against all violâ—tors whatsoever Scotl. But what Can you set limits to a Parliament how can you restraine their absolute power that will take away their Freedom and Priviledge Engl. After many sharpe contests between our Ancestors and the Kings of England our Ancestors at last got a Grant of their Liberties which were setled in a Charter as Fundamentall Constitutions not to be altered and all Laws afterwards to be made contrary or repugnant thereunto were to be voyd which was yearly to be Read in Publique Courts of Judicature and a solemne Curse to be pronounced against those that broke it which was of force till the late Change of Government and yet was never taken as an abridgement of Parliamentary Power or restraint of their Liberties but was