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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A23641	A defence of the answer made unto the nine questions or positions sent from New-England, against the reply thereto by that reverend servant of Christ, Mr. John Ball, entituled, A tryall of the new church-way in New-England and in old wherin, beside a more full opening of sundry particulars concerning liturgies, power of the keys, matter of the visible church, &c., is more largely handled that controversie concerning the catholick, visible church : tending to cleare up the old-way of Christ in New-England churches / by Iohn Allin [and] Tho. Shepard ...	Allin, John, 1596-1671.; Shepard, Thomas, 1605-1649.	1648 (1648)	Wing A1036; ESTC R8238	175,377	216

may be considered What is said that may more properly concern the case under the notion of an instituted Society we shall consider in due place Now from that which hath been said the Conclusion as we conceive doth easily and naturally follow That as notwithstanding all that is said there is no Catholick visible Body of mankinde to which or to the Officers wherof is given the power and priviledges of Civill government to rule this Catholick Body either as one totum politicum or the parts of it Families Cities Kingdoms in communi by subordination of all Societies with reference to the whole or so as every King Major c. should be an Officer of the whole So these and like consequences will not follow in respect of the guides government priviledges c. of the Catholick Church notwithstanding all that is said from these considerations of unity visibility priority of nature c. Object 1 If any shall Object the case is not alike because in this Catholick Church were universall Officers set up as the Apostles not so in the world of mankinde Ans We say these were but for a time in the first beginning for the setting up of the first order in all the Churches who being dead there is none to succeed them in that respect of Catholick power Secondly we say likewise at the first for a time Adam and after Noah had a generall power over mankinde though after them none had the like as it is here And therefore the comparison stil runs clear Object 2 If any object as some doe in answer to an argument somewhat like this that this similitude holds not because there is not that externall union of visible communion in the Common-wealths of the world as in the Church if one say God hath placed Kings Dukes in the Common-wealths as in one organicall Body who have one head who giveth influence to so many organs of head feet c. as the Apostle speaketh of the Body the Church 1 Cor. 12. then indeed all the Common-wealths of the world would make but one body Answ To the Scripture alledged we shall speak after here onely let us clear our parallel And first take the similitude as it is stated by us and it will be clear First compare the Catholick number of mankinde with the Catholick Church which is the number of called ones and then there is as much externall union of visible communion in one as in the other For first all mankinde may and ought to maintain Civill communion one with another in all Offices of humanity for the common good of the whole as the members of the Catholick Church doe or ought to doe and common humanity and the command of the Morall Law binds thereto as well as Christianity and rules of the Gospel bind here Secondly if we compare Civill societies as Families Cities Common-wealths with instituted Churches it is as possible and as well the duty of all Common-wealths in the world by principles of humanity and the Morall Law in all mens hearts to maintain externall union of leagues of friendship and communion in all Offices of Civill society as it is possible and the duty of all Church societies by the principles of Christianity and rule of the Gospel to maintain externall union of visible communion in the duties of Church society Thirdly not to dispute here whether there be such an externall union of visible communion amongst all the visible Churches as parts of the Church Catholick if the reason alledged be sufficient to prove the same viz. because there is one head in the Church who giveth influence to so many organs of head feet eyes c. in the Church Then still our parallel will hold for as this Head is no other then Christ Jesus in his spirituall Kingdom the Church giving that influence named so the same Lord that is King and Head over all 1 Chron. 29.11 Ephes 1.22 doth give influence to many organs in this Body of Mankinde even to all Kings Judges Fathers of Families And Christ is the same in respect of all authority power gifts administrations Civill c. to this Kingdome of Men as he is to the Kingdom of his Church of all power spiritual And although the Church be a Body of nearer relation to Christ then the Body of mankinde yet in regard of a common relation between a Head and Body there is a similitude which is sufficient in this case There is one thing more we meet withall that here we shall remove viz. when it is objected that the Catholick visible Church cannot be one because it cannot convent together in one Society it is answered usually that such comming together in one society is not needfull because as a Kingdom may be one though all parts of it never meet together having the same King Laws c. And as an Army may be one having the same Generall the same Laws of Discipline the same cause c. though the severall Brigades should never be drawn up into one body So the Catholick Church having the same King Laws Cause Enemies is but one though it never meet To this we shall here Reply so far as it lyes in our way 1 As all union is for communion and all communion flows from union so look of what nature the union is such and no other is the communion and look of what nature the communion ought to be of like nature ought the union to be else it will not reach the end And therefore here as the mysticall spirituall union of the Catholick Church to Christ the head by faith and to one another by love is sufficient to afford spirituall communion with the same So unto Politicall communion there must bee a Politicall union into one policy And as the nature of Politicall communion is such must the nature of the union be that it may reach the end To apply this a Politicall Church is instituted of Christ for communion in all the Worship and Ordinances of Christ instituted in the Gospel as the Ministery of the Word the Seales and Discipline now no Church as One can have communion with Christ and one another in these things but it must have a Politicall union suitable thereunto that is they must be one Society that can at least meet to combine together And therefore if all Churches make one Politicall Body for Politicall communion it must be such an union as will reach that end which cannot be imagined in such a Catholick totum politicum as the Catholick Church 'T is true distinct Churches as distinct Kingdoms may have communion in some politicall priviledges answerable to their union consisting in a fraternall relation one unto another yet not make up one Body Politicall of which we speak Secondly to the similitudes brought we answer This whole Kingdom or Army is properly and clearly one Politicall Body under one Politicall head the King or General as stands by Covenant as members of that one Policy and those

our resting place And what would men have us doe in such a case Must wee study some distinctions to salve our Consciences in complying with so manifold corruptions in Gods Worship or should wee live without Gods ordinances because wee could not partake in the corrupt administration thereof or content our selves to live without those ordinances of Gods Worship and Communion of Saints which hee called us unto and our soules breathed after or should wee forsake the publique Assemblies and joyne together in private separated Churches how unsufferable it would then have been the great offence that now is taken at it is a full evidence And if in Cities or some such great Townes that might have been done yet how was it possible for so many scattered Christians all over the Countrey It is true we might have suffered if wee had sought it wee might easily have found the way to have filled the Prisons and some had their share therein But whether wee were called thereunto when a wide doore was set open of liberty otherwise and our witnesse to the truth through the malignant policy of those times could not bee open before the world but rather smothered up in close prisons or some such wayes together with our selves wee leave to bee considered Wee cannot see but the rule of Christ to his Apostles and Saints and the practise of Gods Saints in all ages may allow us this liberty as well as others to fly into the Wildernesse from the face of the Dragon But if it had been so that the Godly Ministers and Christians that fled to New-England were the most timorous and faint hearted of all their Brethren that stayed behinde and that those sufferings were nothing in comparison of their Brethrens for why should any boast of sufferings yet who doth not know that the Spirit who gives various gifts and all to profit withall in such times doth single out every one to such worke as hee in wisdome intends to call them unto And whom the Lord will honour by suffering for his Cause by imprisonment c. hee gives them spirits suitable thereto whom the Lord will reserve for other service or imploy in other places hee inclines their hearts rather to fly giving them an heart suitable to such a condition It is a case of Conscience frequently put and oft resolved by holy Bradford Peter Martyr Philpot and others in Queene Maries bloody dayes viz. Whether it was lawfull to flee out of the Land To which their answer was that if God gave a spirit of courage and willingnesse to glorifie him by sufferings they should s●…ay but if they found not such a spirit they might lawfully fly yea they advised them thereunto Those Servants of Christ though full of the spirit of glory and of Christ to outface the greatest persecuters in profession of the Truth unto the death yet did not complaine of the cowardize of such as fled because they deserted them and the Cause but rather advised divers so to doe and rejoyced when God gave liberty to their brethren to escape with their lives to the places of liberty to serve the Lord according to his Word Neither were those faithfull Saints and servants of God uselesse and unprofitable in the Church of God that fled from the bloody Prelates The infinite and onely wise God hath many workes to doe in the World and hee doth by his singular Providence give gifts to his Servants and disposeth them to his Worke as seemeth best to himselfe If the Lord will have some to beare witnesse by imprisonments dismembring c. wee honour them therein if hee will have others instrumentall to promote reformation in England wee honor them and rejoyce in their holy endeavours praying for a blessing upon themselves and labours And what if God will have his Church and the Kingdome of Christ goe up also in these remote parts of the world that his Name may bee known to the Heathen or whatsoever other end hee hath and to this end will send forth a company of weake-hearted Christians which dare not stay at home to suffer why should wee not let the Lord alone and rejoyce that Christ is preached howsoever and wheresoever And who can say that this work was not undertaken and carryed on with sincere and right ends and in an holy serious manner by the chiefe and the body of such as undertooke the same The Lord knows whether the sincere desires of worshipping himselfe according to his will of promoting and propagating the Gospel was not in the hearts of very many in this enterprise and hee that seeth in secret and rewardeth openly knows what prayers and teares have been poured out to God by many alone and in dayes of f●…sting and prayer of Gods servants together for his counsell direction assistance blessing in this worke How many longings and pa●…tings of heart have been in many after the Lord Jesus to see his goings in his Sanctuary as the one thing their soules desired and requested of God that they might dwell in his house for ever the fruit of which prayers and desires this liberty of New-England hath been taken to bee and thankfully received from God Yea how many serious consultations with one another and with the faithfull Ministers and other eminent servants of Christ have been taken about this worke is not unknowne to some which cleares us from any rash heady rushing into this place out of discontent as many are ready to conceive Wee will here say nothing of the persons whose hearts the Lord stirred up in this businesse surely all were not rash weake-spirited inconsiderate of what they left behinde or of what it was to goe into a Wildernesse But if it were well knowne and considered or if wee were able to expresse and recount the singular workings of divine Providence for the bringing on of this Worke to what it is come unto it would stop the mouths of all that have not an heart to accuse and blaspheme the goodnesse of God in his glorious workes whatever many may say or think wee beleeve after-times will admire and adore the Lord herein when all his holy ends and the wayes he hath used to bring them about shall appeare Look from one end of the heaven to another whether the Lord hath assayed to do such a Worke as this in any Nation so to carry out a people of his owne from so flourishing a State to a wildernesse so far distant for such ends and for such a worke Yea and in few yeares hath done for them as hee hath here done for his poore despised people When wee looke back and consider what a strange poise of spirit the Lord hath laid upon many of our hearts wee cannot but wonder at our selves that so many and some so weak and tender with such cheerfulnesse and constant resolutions against so many perswasions of friends discouragements from the ill report of this Countrey the straits wants and tryalls of Gods people in it

c. yet should leave our accommodations and comforts should forsake our dearest relations Parents brethren Sisters Christian friends and acquaintances over looke all the dangers and difficulties of the vast Seas the thought whereof was a terrour to many and all this to go to a Wildernesse where wee could forecast nothing but care and temptations onely in hopes of enjoying Christ in his Ordinances in the fellowship of his people was this from a stupid senslesnesse or desperate carelesnesse what became of us or ours or want of naturall affections to our deare Countrey or nearest relations No surely with what bowells of compassion to our deare Countrey with what heart-breaking affections to our deare relations and Christian friends many of us at least came away the Lord is witnesse What shall we say of the singular Providence of God bringing so many Ship-loads of his people through so many dangers as upon Eagles wings with so much safety from yeare to yeare The fatherly care of our God in feeding and cloathing so many in a Wildernesse giving such healthfulnesse and great increase of posterity what shall wee say of the Worke it selfe of the kingdome of Christ and the form of a Common-wealth erected in a Wildernesse and in so few yeares brought to that state that scarce the like can bee seen in any of our English Colonies in the richest places of this America after many more years standing That the Lord hath carryed the spirits of so many of his people through all their toylsome labour wants difficulties losses c. with such a measure of chearfulnesse and contentation But above all wee must acknowledge the singular pity and mercies of our God that hath done all this and much more for a people so unworthy so sinfull that by murmurings of many unfaithfulnesse in promises oppressions and other evils which are found among us have so dishonoured his Majesty exposed his worke here to much scandall and obloquie for which wee have cause for ever to bee ashamed that the Lord should yet owne us and rather correct us in mercy then cast us off in displeasure and scatter us in this Wildernesse which gives us cause with Mich. 7. to say Who is a God like our God that pardoneth iniquities and passeth by the transgressions of the remnant of his heritage even because he delighteth in mercy Though we be a people of many weaknesses and wants yet wee acknowledge our God to have been to us a God of many mercies in respect of that sweet peace which he hath taken away from so many Nations yet continuing the same to us in respect also of that liberty wee have in Gods house the blessed Ministery of the Word the sweet unity and communion of Gods Churches and Ministers increase and multiplication of Churches Christian government in the Common-wealth and many other mercies wee enjoy but especially the gracious presence of Christ to many of our soules in all these But wee will not insist much upon this subject being perswaded it is in the consciences and hearts of many of our dear Countrey-men to thinke that we should be an object of love and tendernesse to that State and people by whose Laws and unkind usages we were driven out into a wildernesse rather then to bee judged as desertors of our Brethren and the Cause of Christ in hand with whom excuse us if we now speak plainly it had been far more easie unto many of us to have suffered then to have adventured hither upon the wildernesse sorrows wee expected to have met withall though we must confesse the Lord hath sweetned it beyond our thoughts and utmost expectations of prudent men But passing by this wee must desire the Reader to beare with us a little in removing that apprehension that wee are the great stumbling block in the way of Reformation which if it were true it had been better we had been driven so farre into this wildernesse as never to have been heard of more Concerning our affection to this blessed worke of a publique Reformation of the Nation in generall and the particular Churches or Congregations of the Land in particular as it is best knowne to God so wee thinke it is not unknowne to men not onely here by our daily prayers for it and sometime solemne seekings of God about it but also we have given some testimonies thereof both by private Letters and the publique motions of some of Gods eminent servants among us tending that way We conceive two things specially in our Doctrine and practise that may seem to bee stumbling blocks in the way of this publique Reformation which we shall here remove The first is our practise wherein wee seem so much to differ from the reformed Churches in receiving to our Churches onely visible Saints and beleevers This we doe freely confesse that our practise and judgement doe evidence this to all that we thinke reformation of the Church doth not onely consist in purging out corrupt Worship and setting up the true but also in purging the Churches from such profanenesse and sinfulnesse as is scandalous to the Gospel and makes the Lord weary of his owne Ordinances Esay 1. And wee doubt not but this was in the hearts of many if not most of Gods servants to desire a separation of the precious from the vile in the dispensing of Gods ordinances and if the charity of some be of larger extent herein then others this hinders not agreement in the maine This day hath discovered what kinde of people are to bee found every where in the Parishes of England Can light and darknesse Christ and Belial agree together Popish episcopall enemies and haters of all godlinesse and reformation cleave together in one Church of Christ with the Saints of God Yet neither our Doctrine nor practise do prescribe and limit the way of attaining this reformation whereby any should justly from our example stand off from concurring in such a publique worke It is true where there is no Church relation but a people are to begin a new constituting of Churches reformation is to be sought in the first Constitution This is our case But where corrupted Churches such as we conceive the Congregations of England generally to be are to be reformed there we conceive that such Congregations should bee called by able Ministers unto repentance for former evills and confessing and bewayling their sins renew a solemn Covenant with God to reform themselves and to submit unto the discipline of Christ By which meanes such as refuse so to doe exclude themselves and others by the severity of Discipline should bee purged out if falling into sinne they remaine impenitent in the same What some particular persons may have said or done contrary to this our profession wee cannot say nor doe we justifie but wee know nothing that hath come from us to the contrary to weaken the hands of godly reformers or to perswade the people to separate from the Congregations if by any meanes they might

lawfull for matter and manner the corruption of him that useth it according to his judgement from what cause can it spring but humane ignorance and frailtie Answ First the learned replier is very apt to forget the termes of the Proposition which is of the whole Liturgie not of some things in it that hee may judge lawfull to judge the whole lawfull wee thinke none of those who sent the questions doe Secondly our question is not whether the Minister use the book of humane frailtie but whether the worship offered therein bee not so corrupt for matter and manner as puts a great difference betweene it and the prayers of a Minister that may bee subject to faylings of humane frailtie Wee doubt not but Bilney Latimer c. used the prayers and ceremonies of the Church of Rome out of humane frailtie yet the service it selfe and those ceremonies of holy water holy bread c. which Latimer turned to as good use as hee could were evill and no way to bee conformed unto by the godly Thirdly there are many things done of others through humane frailtie that is ignorantly and in some measure perversely yet such frailties though they are to bee very long tolerated in the man yet every humane frailtie is not so to bee tolerated as to bee communicated with for the grossest Idolatry in Popery may in this sense if ignorantly done bee accounted humane frailtie It is true wee may bee freed from communicating in anothers sinne two wayes 1. By bearing witnesse against his sinne or 2ly by withdrawing from the person committing it There were times wherein the Lord raised up witnesses against the growing abominations of Antichrist for many yeeres and there are times as Cameron well observes wherein the Lord commands his people not onely to beare witnesse but to come out of Babylon The case may be so put as that wee may quit our hands from communicating with other men in their sinfull worship by bearing witnesse onely against the sinne yet communicating with them in the rest è eonira the circumstances may bee such as that wee best free our selves from sinne by withdrawing from them in such acts And wee freely confesse wee know not how to acquit others that communicate in the whole Liturgie without the one or the other Reply Wee rest assured you question not the integritie of many who make much more use of the looke then onely in a few select prayers Answ You may so doe and wee rest assured you question not the integritie of many that have conformed to the ceremonies yet wee hope you will not justifie them in that act no more then we doe any in this Reply From the bottome of our hearts wee pray that the Lord would remove out of his Church what ever offends and yet all things might be so done as might be approved in the consciences of all Answ Wee not onely joyne with you in this hearty desire but blesse God that wee live to see the same so farre accomplished in a good part of England as it is but as wee are perswaded the growing light and zeale of many godly Ministers and Christians that have discovered the evill of the booke it selfe as well as the ceremonies thereof and their resolute rejection of the same was one blessed meanes hereof so wee feare the pleas and indeavours of some brethren to excuse it and the use of it will be a dangerous meanes to uphold in the hearts of many too good an opinion of it and loathnesse to cast it quite away to the Moles and Bats from whence it first came Reply To aggr●…vat●… faults especially when it tends to draw away people from the ordinances of God is no lesse evill then to excuse them it may bee greater Answ Wee grant at some times and in some cases it may bee so but in matters of corrupt worship wherein God is so jealous and at such a time as this was when the burthensome corruptions of humane traditions so violently imposed on the Churches grew to such a number and unsupportable weight to the consciences of so many wee doubt not to affirme that now extenuations were farre more dangerous and offensive to the Lord wee cannot but with sad hearts consider and call to minde how many weake Christians have ventured to swallow downe all manner of humane traditions and worships imposed upon them imboldned much wee feare by the examples if not the reasonings of many godly Ministers which scandall some of us with many amongst you have have cause to bewayle before the Lord and give satisfaction before the world And wee hope our departure from these burdens and flight into these wildernesses to enjoy Christ in more pure ordinances of his worship and the witnesse wee have thereby borne against them have not been in vaine through the grace of Jesus Christ Reply In them that joyne according to Christs command and libertie of absence from Christ hath not been shewed notwithstanding the corruptions wee hold the prayers to bee an holy and acceptable sacrifice to the Lord and pleasing to Jesus Christ Answ How any man can joyne with this whole Liturgie according to Christs command who in the second commandement forbids all humane devices in his worship whereof this Liturgie is so full it is hard for us to conceive and strange to see it affirmed and that Libertie from Christ to bee absent cannot bee shewed The whole sentence as it standeth wee confesse to us seemes an high justification thereof which wee little expected Reply The corrupt sacrifice is that which the deceiver bringeth voluntarily and out of neglect having a male in his flock but the godly bringeth himselfe and godly desires according to the will of God and the corruptions in matter or manner are not his they cleave not to his sacrifice to staine and pollute it The Text in Malach. 1. is misapplyed and wee desire such as alledge this passage against simple presence at the prayers of the Liturgie advisedly to consider whether God allow them to make such application of his truth which we much doubt of to say no more Answ That people joyning in the whole Liturgie voluntarily offer up the same wee thought had beene no question If any joyne by feare and compulsion though the will in this case is not forced for ●…i●…ta actio is voluntaria wee thinke that will not ease but aggravate the evill arguing a reluctancy or doubtfulnesse at least in his conscience and so what hee doth is not of faith and therefore sin Rom. 14. 2ly What you say of the faithfull here might be said for the faithful in Malachi his time if any godly man came with godly desires to Jerusalem to worship and then carelesly buy and take a corrupt sacrifice for cheapnesse ease c. shall hee not bee counted at least in part this deceiver and beare the curse And why not so here in this case Let a man bring himselfe and never so godly desires yet if hee

such a power to themselves So page next 80. In the word it is not commanded that no member should remove or occasionally be absent from the place of his habitation before he have acquainted the congregation whither he goeth on what occasion c. To what end is this inserted if not to suggest that there is such a practise among us that a man may not occasionally be absent c. which is far from us And what is the ground see a few lines after The Church shall burthen herselfe c. If shee take upon her to intermeddle in all such occasions And immediatly after wee feare the time appointed for religious exercises should bee profaned by unseasonable disputes But what is the ground of this feare conceived and published to the world viz. If such businesses must bee determined on the Lords day and that before the Ordinances c. because it seemes Robinson in case of some notorious obstinate offender would have some censure passed to prevent pollution of an Ordinance and is this ground sufficient Againe in the same page for these things are thick sowne Herein saith he you have devised an expedient or necessary rite or custome to preserve unity c. but if you seeke a ground it will bee found a mistake as is shewed before and contrary to the expresse profession of the Answer That wee promise no new duties but onely such as the Gospell requires of all Saints in Church order much lesse doe wee set up new rites and customes And as if all these particular imputations in the compasse of one leafe were two little Page next 81. wee have a whole Catalogue gathered together from other places and this that by laying things together the odium raised might stick the deeper for thus the words are But to presse customes expedient for the time as standing rules necessary at all times and all persons To put authority in the hands of men which God never put upon them and to oblige them to intermeddle To bind the consciences of men and that upon so heavy a penaltie as the sinne of Ananias and Saphira where God hath not bound it To de●…arre knowne Christians from the seales because they cannot promise so abide in the Church at setled members and yet charge them in the meane season against light to refuse subjection to the Gospel Concerning all which wee doe not know any of them to be true not approve any such thing in any if it should be found among us And what is the ground of all this Truely weake enough as hath been shewed in our discourse and here it is the suspicion of the Author for thus hee adds This is that wee cannot approve and yet wee suspect will follow from your judgement These things wee have thus briefly presented in one view not to dishonour the learned and reverend Author whose memory wee honour two things we charitably take notice of to remove over hard thoughts of him First wee consider his spirit might bee over grieved and provoked to this harshnesse by the withdrawings of many Christians from the Ordinances of God because dispensed according to the corrupt Liturgy in which cause he stood too farre ingaged and supposing New-England wayes the cause of it he was the more sharpe Secondly wee consider that this Reply was not intended by him to be published to the world but to be sent unto us and therefore he is in our hearts the lesse blamable But seeing these things are now published and the harshnesse thereof may do much hurt wee were pressed to cleare our selves wherein if any thing reflect upon the Author or Publishers wee cannot avoyd it Neither doe wee write thus as if wee would wholly justifie our selves and all the particular miscarriages that happily at one time or other in some Church or other may have happened we have much cause to humble our selves before our God and abase our selves to the dust before men for all the weakenesses sinnes errors and miscarriages that have beene found among us in one kind and another Onely this wee may professe before the Lord and his people that in the maine scope of our hearts and indeavours of our lives wee have sought after such a forme of worship and frame of discipline as we could conceive by the Word of God and the helpe of the best Reformers to bee according to the will of Christ not allowing our selves in any evill discovered unto us but bewayling our great defects in all Reply And here wee crave leave to put you in mind of what you have considered already That the Church and every member have entered into Covenant to take God for their God c. but wee never finde that they were called to give account of the worke of grace wrought in their soules or that the whole Congregation were to bee judge thereof You stand here all this day saith Moses before the Lord your God c. that thou shouldest enter into Covenant with the Lord thy God All that were borne in the wildernesse Joshua circumcised but it is uncredible to thinke there was none that did not give good testimony of the worke of grace c. Because it is a principall thing especially in the builders of the Church to know their materials and because the reverend and learned Author steps somewhat out of his way to call us to give answer in this controversie of such great weight especially in this present turne of times wee shall therefore gladly accept of this occasion to declare our selves with as much brevity as we may to the two branches of the question Qu. First Whether the members of the Church are called to give an account of the worke of grace at there admission thereunto Answ 1 Secondly Whether the whole Church is to be judge hereof Whether the members of the Church be called c. For answer to which wee shall expresse our selves in these particulars to prevent mistakes First that the question is not of what may keepe a Church already constituted from being accounted no Church but of what is to bee required of such as joyne unto a Church for a Church may bee a true Church and yet be very corrupt as is generally observed by Protestant writers both out of the examples of some Churches in the New Testament and that of the Old in the great Apostasie thereof wee thinke in this same Doctor Fields expressions may be safely received Some professe Christ saith hee but not wholly and intirely as Heretiques some professe the whole saving truth but not in unity as Schismatiques some professe it in unty but not in sincerity as prophaine persons and Hypocrites some in unity and sincerity all these are partakers of the heavenly calling by profession of the truth and consequently in some degree and sort the Church c. But wee thinke that this is no argument that either Heretiques Schismatickes prophane persons or Hypocrites if convictively discovered that such are meet matter to