science of grammer should not herein availe him M Nothing at all B Nor the art of painting availe the other if the debate be concerning Grammer M Not a white more B A judge then in judgment must acknowledge but one name to wit of the Crime or guilt whereof the Adversary or plaintife doth accuse his party or defendant to be guilty M No more B What if a King be guilty of parricide hath he the name of a King and what ever doth belong to a judge M Nothing at all but only of a parricide for he commeth not into controversy concerning his Kingdome but concerning his parricide B What if two parricides be called to answer in judgment the one a King and the other a poor fellow shall not there be a like way of procedure by the judge of both M The very same with both so that I think that of Lucan is no less true than elegantly spoken Viz Cesar was both my leader and fellow in passing over the Rhine Whom a malefice doth make guilty it maketh alike B True indeed The process then is not here carried on against a King and a poor man but against their parricides For then the process should be led on concerning the King if it should be asked which of the two ought to be King Or if it come into question whether Hiero be King or a Tyrant or if any other thing come into question which doth properly belong to the Kings function Even as if the sentence be concerning a painter when it is demanded hath he skill in the art of painting M What if a King will not willingly compear nor by force can be compelled to compear B Then the case is common with him as with all other flagitious persons For no Thief or warlock will willingly compear before a judge to be judged But I suppose you know what the Law doth permit namely to kill any way a thief stealing by neight and also to kill him if he defend himself when stealing by day But if he cannot be drawn to compear to answer but by force you remember what is usually done For we pursue by force and armes such robbers as are more powerfull than that by Law they can be reached Nor is there almost any other cause of all the warres betwixt Nations people and Kings than those injuries which whilst they cannot be determined by justice are by armes decided M Against enemes indeed for these causes warres use to be carried on but the case is far otherwise with Kings to whom by a most sacred oath interposed we are bound to give obedience B We are indeed bound but they do first promise that they shall rule in equity and justice M It is so B There is then a mutuall paction betwixt the King and his subjects M It seemes so B Doth not he who first recedes from what is covenanted and doth contrary to what he hath covenanted to do break the contract and covenant M He doth B The bond then being loosed which did hold fast the King with the people what ever priviledge or right did belong to him by that agreement and covenant who looseth the same I suppose is lost M It is lost B He then with whom the Covenant was made becometh as free as ever he was before the stipulation M He doth clearly enjoy the same priviledge the same liberty B Now if a King do those things which are directly for the dissolution of society for the continuance where of he was created how do we call him M A Tyrant I suppose B Now a Tyrant hath not only no just authority over a people but is also thier enemy M He is indeed an enemy B Is there not a just and Lawfull war wich an enemy for grievous and intolerable injuries M It is for sooth a just war B What war is that which is carried on with him who is the enemy of all mankind that is a Tyrant M A most just war B Now a Lawfull war being once undertaken wich an enemy and for a just cause it is Lawfull not only for the whole people to kill that enemy but for every one of them M I confess that B May not every one out of the whole maltitude of mankind assault with all the calamities of war a Tyrant who is a publick enemy with whom all good men have a perpetuall warfare M I perceive all Nations almost to have been of that opinion For Thebe is usually commended for killing her husband Timoleon for killing his brother and Cassius for killing his Son and Ful vius for killing his own son going to Catiline and Brutus for killing his own sons and kinsmen having understood they had conspired to introduce Tyranny again and publick rewards were appointed to be given and honours appointed by severall Cities of greece to those that should kill Tyrants So that as is before said they thought there was no bond of humanity to be kept with Tyrants But why do I collect the assent of some single persons since I can produce the testimony almost of the whole world For who doth not sharply rebuke Domitius Corbulo for neglecting the safety of mankind who did not thrust Nero out of his Empire when he might very easily have done it And not only was he by the Romans reprehended but by Tyridates the Persian King being not at all afraid lest it should afterward befall an example unto himself But the minds of most wicked men enraged wich cruelty are not so void of this publick hatred against Tyrants but that sometimes it breaketh out in them against their will and forceth them to stand amazed with terrour at the sight of such a just and Lawfull deed When the Ministers of Casus Caligula a most cruel Tyrant were with the like cruelty tumultuating for the slaughter of thier Lord and Master and required those that had killed him to be punished now and then crying aloud who had killed the Emper our Valerius Asiaticus one of the Senators standing in an eminent high place from whence he might be heard cryed out aloud I wish I had killed him At which word these tumultuary persons void of all humanity stood as it were astonished and so fore bore any more to cry out tumultuously For there is so great force in an honest deed that the very lightest shew there of being presented to the minds of men the most violent assaults are allayed and fierce fury doth languish and madness nill it will it doth acknowledge the soveraignty of reason Neither are they of another judgment who with their loud cryes mixe heaven and earth together Now this we do easily understand either from hence that they do reprehend what now is done but do commend and approve the same seemingly more atrocious when they are recorded in an old history and thereby do evidently demonstrat that they are more obsequious to their own particular affections than moved by any publick dammage But why do we seek a more
by the like animadversion may not some Art of Reigning be described as wel as the Art of Physick M. I think there may B. Of what Precepts shall it consist M. I do not know at present B. What if we shall find it out by comparing it with other Arts M. What way B. This way there be some Precepts of Grammar of Physick and Husbandry M. I understand B. Shall we not call these Precepts of Grammarians and Physicians Arts and Lawes also and so of others M. It seems indeed so B. Do not the Civil Lawes seem to be certain Precepts of Royal Art M. They seem so B. He must therefore be acquaint therewith who would be accounted a King M. It seemes so B. What if he have no skill therein Albeit the People shall command him to reigne think you that he should be called a King M. You cause me here hesitate For if I would consent with the former discourse the suffrages of the People can no more make him a King than any other Artist B. What think you shall then be done for unless we have a King chosen by suffrages I am afraid we shall have no lawfull King at all M. And I fear also the same B. Will you then be content that we more accuratly examine what we have last set down in comparing Arts one with another M. Be it so if it so please you B. Have we not called the Precepts of Artists in their several Arts Lawes M. We have done so B. But I fear we have not done it circumspectly enough M. Why B. Because he would seem absurd who had skill in any Art and yet not to be an Artist M. It were so B. But he that doth performe what belongs to an Art we will account him an Artist whether he do it naturally or by some perpetual and constant tenour and faculty M. I think so B. We shall then call him an Artist who knowes wel this rational and prudent way of doing any thing wel providing he hath acquired that faculty by constant practice M. Much better than him who hath the bare Precepts without use and exercitation B. Shall we not then account these Precepts to be Art M. Not at all but a certain similitude thereof or rather a shaddow of Art B. What is then that Governing Faculty of Cities which we shall call Civil Art or Science M. It seemes you would call it Prudence out of which as from a fountain or spring all Lawes provided they be usefull for the preservation of humane society must proceed and be derived B. You have hit the nail on the head if this then were compleat and perfect in any person we might say he were a King by nature and not by suffrages and might resigne over to him a free Power over all things but if we find not such a man we shall also call him a King who doth come nearest to that eminent excellency of Nature embracing in him a certain similitude of a true King M. Let us call him so if you please B. And because we fear he be not firme enough against inordinat affections which may and for the most part use to decline men from truth we shall adjoyn to him the Law as it were a Colleague or rather a bridler of his lusts M. You do not then think that a King should have an arbitrary Power over all things B. Not at all for I remember that he is not only a King but also a man erring in many things by ignorance often failing willingly doing many things by constraint yea a creature easily changeable at the blast of every favour or frown which natural vice a Magistrat useth also to increase so that here I chiefly find that of the Comedy made true All by licence become worse Wherefore the most prudent have thought it expedient to adjoyne to him a Law which may either shew him the way if he be ignorant or bring him back again into the way if he wander out of it by these I suppose you understand as in a representation what I judge to be the duty of a true King M. Of the cause of creating Kings of their name and duty you have fully satisfied me Yet I shall not repine if you please to add ought thereto Albeit my mind doth hasten to hear what yet seemes to remain yet there is one thing which in all your discourse did not a little offend me which I think should not be past over in silence viz. that you seem somewhat injurious to Kings and this very thing I did suspect in you frequently before whilst I often heard you so profusely commend the ancient Common-Wealths and the City of Venice B. You did not rightly herein judge of me For I do not so much look to the different forme of Civil Government such as was amongst the Romans Massilians Venetians and others amongst whom the authority of Lawes were more powerfull than that of men as to the equity of the forme of Government nor do I think it matters much whether King Duke Emperour or Consul be the name of him who is the Chiefest in Authority provided this be granted that he is placed in the Magistracy for the maintenance of equity for if the Government be lawfull we must not contend for the name thereof For he whom we call the Duke of Venice is nothing else but a lawfull King and the first Consuls did not only retain the honours of Kings but also their empire and authority this only was the difference that not one but two of them did reigne which also you know was usual in all the Lacedemonian Kings who were created or chosen not constantly to continue in the government but for one year We must therefore alwayes stand to what we spoke at first that Kings at first were institute for maintaining equity If they could have holden that soveraignty in the case they had received it they might have holden and kept it perpetually but this is free and loosed by Lawes But as it is with humane things the state of affaires tending to worse the Soveraigne Authority which was ordained for publick utility degenerated into a proud Domination For when the lust of Kings stood in stead of Lawes and men being vested with an infinite and immoderate power did not contain themselves within bounds but connived at many things out of favour hatred or self-interest the insolency of Kings made Lawes to be desired For this cause therefore Lawes were made by the People and Kings constrained to make use not of their own licentious wills in judgment but of that Right or Priviledge which the people had conferred upon them For they were taught by many experiences that it was better that their liberty should be concredited to Lawes than to Kings whereas the one might decline many wayes from the Truth but the other being deafe both to intreaties and threats might still keep one and the same tenor This one way of Government is to Kings
nor doth it only refute what you spoke of the greatness of that power but that also which you most shun it perspicuously declareth what power they granted to others of answering rightly was not denyed to themselves if they had been pleased to exerce that office or could have done it by reason of greater affaires B As for those Roman Emperours whom the Souldiers did choose indeliberatly without any regard to the common good of all These fall not under this notion of Kings which we have described so that by those that were most wicked were they chosen who for the most part were most wicked or else laid hold upon the Government by violence Now I do not reprehend them for granting power to Lawyers to interpret the Law And albeit that power be very great as I have said before it is notwithstanding more safely concredited to them to whom it cannot be an instrument of Tyranny Moreover it was concredited to many whom mutuall reverence did hold within the bounds of duty that if one decline from equity he might be refuted by another And if they should have all agreed together into fraud the help of the judge was above them who was not obliged to hold for Law what ever was given by Lawyers for an answer And over all was the Emperour who might punish the breach of Lawes They beeing astricted by so many bonds were hemmed in and did fear a more grievous punishment than any reward of fraud they could expect you see I suppose then that the danger to be feared from such kind of men was not so great M. Have you no more to say of a King B. First if you please let us collect together what is already spoken so that the more easily we may understand if any thing be omitted M. I think we should do so B. We seemed to be at accord sufficiently concerning the origine cause of creating Kings making Lawes but of the Lawgiver not so but at last though somewhat unwillingly I seeme to have consented being enforced by the strength of truth M. Certainly you have not only taken from a King the power of commanding Lawes but also of interpreting them even whilst I as an Advocat strongly protested against it Wherein I am afraid if the matter come to publick hearing lest I be accused of prevarication for having so easily suffered a good cause as it seemed at first to be wrung out of my hands B. Be of good courage for if any accuse you of prevarication in this case I promise to be your defence M. Perhaps we will find that shortly B. There seems to be many kinds of affaires which can be comprehended within no Lawes whereof we laid over a part on ordinary judges a part on the Kings councill by the Kings consent M. I do remember we did so indeed And when you was doing that wot you what came into my mind B. How can I unless you tell me M. Me thought you made Kings in a manner like stone seals which for the most part so seeme to lean on the tops of pillars as if they did sustain the whole fabrick whereas in effect they bear no more burden than any other stone B. What good Advocat of Kings do you complain that I lay on them a little burden seeing both day and night they do nothing else than seek out others to bear burden with them or upon whom they may altogether lay the burden so disburden themselves And in the mean time you seeme to take it in ill part that I afford them help labouring under their burden M. I also very willingly admit these auxiliaries but such would I have as may serve but not command such as may shew the way but not Lead in the way or more truly draw or rush them forward as some warlike engine and leave a King no other power but to assent to them Therefore I presently expect that having ended our discourse concerning a King you would step aside to speak of Tyrants or some where else For you have inclosed a King within so narrow bounds that I am afraid lest if we tarry longer therein you drive him out of his greatest wealth highest dignity banish him as it were into some desert Island where being spoiled of all his honour he wax old in poverty misery B. You feared as you pretend the crime of prevarication but I am afraid lest in calumniating you wrong the King whom you endeavour to defend First I would not have him to be idle unless you would appoint idle master builders secondly you deprive him of good Ministers friends whom I have adjoyned unto him not as keepers but would have them called by him to bear a part of his labour these being driven away you surround him with a band of Knaves who make him to be feared by his subjects neither do you think he will be formidable unless we allow him a great power of doing wrong I would have him to be by his subjects beloved not to be guarded by the terrour but goodwill of his subjects which armes alone do make Kings invincible unless you gainsay this I trust I shall shortly prove it For I shall lead him out of these you call straits into light by one Law shall give him so much authority and enlargment that if he desire more he may seeme impudent M. Indeed I long to heare that B. I shall then fall upon that matter that I may satisfy your desire as soon as I can A little before we have confessed that no Law can be so accurately cautioned concerning any affair but that malicious subtilty may invent some fraud This perhaps will be the better understood by the example already proposed By the Law it is ordained that no parents transmit their benefices to their bastards Here in effect the Law seemes clear yet a cheat is found out that the father substitute some other man that he may deliver that same benefice to the bastard of the former possessor Thereafter when as it was carefully ordained by Law that the son should by no means enjoy that benefice which his father had possessed before yet by this caution it was never a white the better For against that Law a paction was found out amongst Priests that each of them should substitute the Son of the other in his office And when that was also forbidden the Law was also eluded by another kind of cheat a pretender was set up against the father who might pretend he had a right to that benefice Whilst the father seemingly is a contending with this supposed Sycophant the Son doth petition the Pope for the benefice if so be that the right unto that benefice belong not to either of the parties contending for it and so the son by his fathers prevarication doth enjoy his fathers benefice and over cometh both the parties who willingly freely yeeld up their plea. Thus you soe how many Kinds of
and Spaniards have past so often out of one family into another But I do not know if our Kings have been so wise as Theopompus B. As they have not been so prudent do you imagine that the people were so foolish as to neglect an occasion so opportune put into their hand or that they were so struck with fear or seduced by flatteries as to give themselves over into slavery willingly M. Perhaps it was not But if the people which indeed might be were so blind that they did not see what might concerne their own good or being careless would not see what might be for their benefit so as to contemne it should they not then be justly punished for their folly B. It is not probable that any such thing was done seeing we may see the contrary to be observed even to our dayes For besides that wicked Kings as often as they intended tyranny over their Subjects were alwayes restrained some vestiges 〈◊〉 the ancient customes do yet continue in somâ— ancient familes For the Old Scots even 〈◊〉 our very dayes do choose their heads of clans and having chosen them do give them council of Elders to which councill who soever gives not obedience is deprived 〈◊〉 all honour and dignity What therefore 〈◊〉 with very great care observed in the parts would they be negligent of for the security and safety of all And would they willinglâ— redact themselves into bondage to him whâ—â— was to possess a lawfull Kingdome in steaâ— of some benefit and would they freely givâ— over their liberty acquired by vertue defendâ—ed by armes not interrupted for so many ages to one not expecting it without forceâ— without war For the calamity of John Balâ—oâ— doth shew that that power was never granted to our Kings besides the punishments so often taken for their Maladministration Who about two hundred and sixty years ago was by the nobility rejected because he had subjected himself and his Kingdome to the authority of Edward King of England and Robert the first was substitute in his stead The same doth also shew that perpetual custome continued from the beginning of our Government M. What custome do you speak of B. When our Kings are publickly inaugurat they solemnely promise to all the People that they will observe the Lawes rites and old statutes of their predecessors use the â—ame power which they have received from them that whole order of ceremonies doth shew the first entry of our Kings into every City from all which it may be easily understood what kind of power they did receive from our predecessors to wit none other than that they swear to maintain the Lawes being chosen by suffrages This condition of reigning did God propose to David and his posterity and promiseth they should reigne so long as they should obey the Lawes he had given them those things indeed they do as is probable that our Kings received from our Ancestors a power not immense but within certain limites bounded and limited And further there was the confirmation of a long time and the usurpation of a perpetual right by the people never reprehended by a publick decree M. But I fear it cannot be easily obtained of Kings as being perswaded by that probability to condescend to these Lawes however sworn unto or usurped by the people B. I also believe it is no less hard to perswade the people to pass from the right received from their Ancestors approved by the use of so many ages and practised by one continuall tenour I do not think it needfull to proceed by conjectures what the people is to do since I see what they have done already But if by the obstinat pertinacy of both the business come to armes he that prevaileth will give what Law and right he pleaseth to the vanquished but this will not longer continue than he who is vanquished having again gathered together his forces shall take up Armes again In all which contentions men usually still fight with very great damage of the People but with the utter overthrow of Kings For from this spring do flow all the destructions of all Kingdoms M. It must needs be so B. I have perhaps gone back further than was needfull to the end you might clearly understand what kind of Government there was amongst us of old For if I had reasoned with you according to the rigour of the Law I might have gained my poynt in a far more compendious way M. Albeit you have almost satisfied me already yet I shall willingly hear what that is B. I would then have you first of all to answer me this question Do you not approve the definition of Law set down by Lawyers who say that Law is that which the People knew when demanded by him to whom the prerogative of demanding belongeth M. Indeed I do approve it B. We have agreed that the faults of Lawes being found out they may be amended or abrogat by the Law givers M. We did so B. I suppose you perceive now that such as are borne Kings are by the Lawes and Suffrages of the People created no less than those whom we said were elected â—n the beginning And that in receiving of Lawes there will not be remedies wanting in â—he People who are the Lawgivers not onâ—y against force and fraud but also against neâ—ligence M. I perceive that clearly â— Only here is the difference that the Law â—oncerning our Kings was made severall ages â—efore and when any doth enter into the â—ingdome there useth to be no new Law â—ade but the old Law is approven and â—â—tified But amongst those who have their â—eeting of Estates at the election of every â—ing the Law useth to be made the King â—reated and approved and so to enter into â—s Government M. It is so B. Now if â—ou please let us briefly recapitulat what we â—re at accord in from the very beginning â—o that if ought be rashly approven it may â—e retracted M. I am content B. First â—f all then it seemes that a King is created 〈◊〉 the peoples sake and that nothing more â—xcellent is given us of God than a good King â—nd more pestilentious than a wicked King â— Very right B We have also said that wicked King is called a Tyrant M· We â—â—ve said so B. And because there is not â—â—ch plenty of good men so as to choose those â—ho may prove good Kings nor so great a â—â—ppiness of birth as that good Luck may â—â—fer us those that are good if we have not â—â—ch as we would wish yet we have such as â—ther consent hath approved or chance hath â—â—fered Now the hazard that occureth either in choosing new Kings or in approâ—ving such as are given us by birth was thâ— cause that we desired Lawes which mighâ— modify the Government of Kings Noâ— these Lawes should be nothing else but thâ— express image as far as may be of a gooâ— Prince M. We are at accord in that alsâ— B
with Catiline for overturning the commonwealth of Rome was compelled to renounce his Praetorship and the Decemviri the makers of the Roman Lawes were taken order with even whilst they enjoyed thâ— supream authority Some Dukes of Venice and Chilpericus King of france laying aside their Royall honours as private men spenâ— their dayes in Monasteries And not long ago Christiernus King of the Danes twenty years almost after he was deprived of his Kingdome did end his life in prison Now the Dictatorship which was a Kind of Tyranny was in the peoples power And this priviledge hath been constantly observed that publick benefices granted amiss and the liberty granted to ingrate persons set at liberty whom Lawes do very much favour might be taken back again These things we have spoken of forrain Nations lest we alone seeme to have usurped any new priviledge against our Kings But as to what doth properly belong to us the matter might have been handled in few words M What way For this I am very desirous to heare B I might enumerat twelve or more Kings who for great crimes and flagitious deeds have been either adjudged to perpetuall imprisonment or escaped the just punishment of their wickedness either by exile or voluntary death But lest any blame me for relating old and obsolete stories if I should make mention of Culen Even and Ferchard I shall produce some few within the memory of our forefathers All the Estates in a publick convention judged James the third to have been justly killed for his great cruelty and flagitious wickedness towards his Subjects and did caution that none of them who had aided consented or contributed money or had been active therein to be called thereafter into question therefore That they therefore did judge the deed to be duely and orderly done it being once down doubtless they desired it might be set down for an example in timâ— coming surely no less than L Quintiuâ— sitting in judgment did Commend Serviliuâ— Ahalus for having killed before the bench Spâ— Mellus turning his back and refusing to comâ—pear into judgment and that he was not guilty of blood shed but thought him to be nobiâ—litat by the slaughter of a Tyrant and alâ— posterity did affirme the same What Subjecâ— hath ever approved the slaughter of one affecâ—ting Tyranny what do you suppose would he have done with a Tyrant robbing the good of his Subjects and shedding their blood What hath our men done do not they seemâ— to have made a Law who by a publick decreâ— without any punishment have past by a flagitiâ—ous crime committed if such like shall happeâ— in time coming for at most there is no diffeâ—rence whether you judge concerning thaâ— which is done or make a Law concerning what is to be done For both wayes a judgâ—ment is past concerning the Kind of the crime and concerning the punishment or reward oâ— the actor M. These things will perhaps havâ— some weight amongst us But I know not how other Nations abroad will take them You seâ— I must satisfy them Not as in a judiciall way I were to be called in question for the crime but openly amongst all concerning the fame not mine for I am far from any suspition thereof but of my countrey men For I am afraid lest forrain Nations will rather blamâ— the decrees wherewith you suppose you are sufficiently protected than the crime it self full of cruelty and hatred But you know if I mistake not what is usually spoken according to the disposition and opinion of every one on both hands concerning the examples you have proposed I would therefore because you seeme to have expeded what is past not so much from the decrees of men as from the springs of Nature you would briefly expound if you have ought to â—ay for the equity of that Law B. Albeit that may seeme unjust to stand at the bar to plead amongst forrainers for a Law approved from the very first times of our Scots Government by Kings by the constant practice of so many ages ago necessary for the people not unjust for Kings but Lawfull but now at last accused of illegality yet for your sake I shall try it And as if I were debating with those very men who would trouble you I first ask this What do you think here worthy of reprehension Is it the cause why is it sought for or is it the Law it self which you reprehended for the Law was sought for repressing the unjust lusts of Kings Whoever doth condemne this must likewise condemne all the Lawes of all Nations for all Lawes were desired for the very same cause Do you reprehend the Law it self do you think it Lawfull that Kings be exempted of or not lyable to the Lawes let us then see if that be also expedient And for proving that it is not expedient for the people there needs not many words For it in the former discourse we have rightly compared a King to a Physician as it is not expedient for people that impunity be permitted to a Physician for killing whom he pleaseth so it is not for the good of all that a promiscuous licence be granted to Kings for making havock of all We have no cause then to be offended with a people whose chief power it is in making Lawes if as they desire a good King to be set over them even so a Law to be set over a King none of the best But if this Law be not for the Kings use or profit let us see if the people should be dealt with to remit somewhat of their priviledge and of abrogating it not for the space of three dayes but according to our usuall way we indict a Parliament to meet within fourty dayes In the mean time that we may reason together concerning the Law tell me doth he seeme to respect the good of a mad man who looseth his bonds M. Not at all B. What do you think of him who giveth to a man sick of a feaver so as he is not far from madness a drink of cold water though earnestly craving it do you think he deserveth well of that sick man M. But I speak of Kings of a sound mind I deny that there is any need of medicine for such as are in health nor of Lawes for Kings of a sound mind But you would have all Kings to seeme wicked for you impose Lawes upon all B. I do not think that all Kings are wicked Nor do I think all the people to be wicked and yet the Law in one voice doth speak to the whole people Now wicked men are afraid at that voice good people do not think it belongs to them Thus good Kings have no cause to be offended at this Law and wicked Kings if they were wise would render thanks to the Law giver who hath ordained what he understood would not be proâ—â—table for them nor to be Lawfull for them to do Which indeed they will not do if so be they shall
purpose in hand nor to stay in explaining or confirming things that are perspicuous and well known M. I think we should do so if you please ask me B. Do you not think that the time hath been when men did dwell in cottages yea and in caves and as strangers did wander to and fro without Lawes or certain dwelling places and did Assemble together as their fond humours did lead them or as some comodity and comon utility did allure them M. for sooth I beleeve that seeing it is consonant to the course and order of nature and is testified by all the histories of all Nations almost for Homer doth describe the representation of such a wilde and barbarous kind of life in Sicily even in the time of the Trojans Their Courts saith he do neither abound with Counciles nor Judges they dwell only in darksome caves and every one of them in high mountains ruleth his own house wife and Children nor is any of them at leisure to communicat his domestick affaires to any other About the same time also Italy is said to be no better civilized as we may easily conjecture from the most fertile regions almost of the whole world how great the solitude and wastness there was in places on this side of Italy B. But whether do you think the vagrant and solitary life or the associations of men civilly incorporat most agreable to nature M. The last without all peradventure which utility the mother almost of justice and equity did first convocat and commanded to give signes or warnings by sound of trumpet and to defend themselves within walls and to shut the gates with one key B. But do you think that utility was the first and main cause of the association of men M. Why not seeing I have heard from the learned that men are born for men B. Uitility indeed to some seems to be very efficacious both in begetting and conserving the publick society of mankind but if I mistake not there is a far more venerable or ancient cause of mens associating and a more antecedaneous sacred bond of their civil community otherwise if every one would have a regard to this own private advantage then surely that very utility would rather dissolve than unite humane society together M. Perhaps that may be true therefore I desire to know what other cause you will assigne B. A certain instinct of nature not only in man but also in the more tamed sort of beasts that although these allurements of utility be not in them yet do they of their own accord flock together with other beasts of their own kind But of these others we have no ground of debate Surely we see this instinct by nature so deeply rooted in man that if any one had the affluence of all things which contribute either for maintaining health or pleasure and delight of the mind yet he will think his life unpleasant without humane converse Yea they who out of a desire of knowledge and an endeavour of investigating the truth have with drawn themselves from the multitude and retired to secret corners could not long endure a perpetual vexation of mind nor if at any time they should remit the same could they live in solitude but very willingly did bring forth to light their very secret studies and as they had laboured for the publick good they did communicat to all the fruit of their â—abour But if there be any man who doth wholly take delight in solitude and flee from converse with men and shun it I judge it doth rather proceed from a distemper of the mind than from any instinct of nature such as we have heard of Timâ—n the Athenian and Bellerophon the Corinthian who as the Poet saith was a wandering wretch on the Elean coast eating his own heart and fleeing the very footsteps of men M. I do not in this much dissent from you but there is one word nature here set down by you which I do often use rather out of custom than that I understand it and is by others so variously taken and accommodat to so many things that for the most part I am at a stand to what I may mainly apply it B. Forsooth at present I would have no other thing to be understood thereby than that LIGHT infused by GOD into our Minds for when God formed that Creature more Sacred and capable of a Celestial Mind and which might have dominion over the other creatures he gave not only eyes to his Body whereby he might evite things contrary to his condition and follow after such as might be usefull but also he produced in his Mind a certain LIGHT whereby he might discerne things filthy from honest this Light some call Nature others the Law of Nature for my own part truly I think it is of a Heavenly stamp and I am fully perswaded that Nature doth never say one thing and Wisdom another Moreover God hâ—th given us aâ— abridgment of that LAW which might contain the whole in few words viz. that We should love Him with all our Soul and our Neighbours as our selves all the books of Holy Scriptur which treat of ordering our conversation do contain nothing else but an explication of this Law M. You think then that no Orator or Lawyer who might congregat dispersed men hath been the Author of humane society but God only B. It is so indeed and with Cicero I think there is nothing done on earth more acceptable to the great God who rules the World than the associations of men legally united which are called Civil Incorporations whose several parts must be as compactly joyned together as the several members of our Body every one must have their proper function to the end there may be a mutual cooperating for the good of the Whole a mutual propelling of injuries and a foreseeing of advantages and these to be communicat for engaging the benevolence of all amongst themselves M. You do not then make utility but that Divine Law rooted in us from the beginning to be the cause indeed the far more worthy and Divine of the two of mens incorporating in Political Societies B. I mean not indeed that to be the Mother of Equity and Justice as some would have it but rather the handmaid and to be one of the Guards in Cities wel constitute M. Herein I also agree with you B. Now as in our Bodies consisting of contrary Elements there are diseases that is perturbations and some intestine tumults even so there must be of necessity in these greater Bodies that is in Cities which also consist of various yea and for the most part contrary humours or sorts of men and these of different ranks conditions and natures and which is more of such as can not remain one hour together approving the same things And surely such must needs soon dissolve and come to nought if one be not adhibited who as a Physician may quiet such disturbances and by a
time hoped for But lest in those I have produced there might be any ground of calumny I have not set before you Kings out of the Schythian solitude who did either ungird their own horses or did other servile work which might be very far from our manner of living but even out of Greece and such who in these very times wherein the Grecians did most flourish in all liberall sciences did rule the greatest nations or wel governed Cities and did so rule that whilst they were alive were in very great esteeme amongst their people and being dead left to posterity a famous memory of them selves M. If now you ask me what my judgment is I scarce dare confess to you either mine inconstancy or timidity or by what other name it shall please you to call that vice For as often as I read these things you have now recited in the most famous Historians or hear the same commended by very wise men whose authority I dare not decline and that they are approved by all good and honest men to be not only true equitable sincere but also seeme strong and splendid Again as oft as I cast mine eyes on the neatness and elegancy of our times that antiquity seemeth to have been venerable and sober but yet rude and not sufficiently polished but of these things we may perhaps speak of hereafter at more leisure Now if it please you go on to prosecute what you have begun B. May it please you then that we recollect briefly what hath been said so shall we understand best what is past and if ought be rashly granted we shall very soon retract it M. Yes indeed B First of all then we agree that men by nature are made to live in society together and for a communion of life M. that is agreed upon B That a King also chosen to maintain that society is a man eminent in vertue M it is so B And as the discords of men amongst themselves brought in the necessity of creating a King so the injuries of Kings done against their Subjects were the cause of desiring lawes M I acknowledge that B we held lawes to be a proofe of the Art of government even as the preceps of Physick are of the medicinal Art M it is so B. But it seems to be more safe because in neither of the two have we set down any singular and exact skill of their severall arts that both do as speedily as may be heal by these prescripts of Art M It is indeed safest B Now the precepts of the Medicinal Art are not of one kind M How B For some of them are for preservation of health others for restauration thereof M. Very right B. What say you of the governing Art M I think there be as many kinds B Next then it seems that we consider it Do yo think that Physicians can so exactly have skill of all diseases and of their remedies as nothing more can be required for their cure M Not at all for many new kinds of diseases arise almost in every age and new remedies for each of them almost every yeer are by mens industry found out or brought from far countries B what think you of the lawes of Commonwealths M Surely their case seemes to be the same B Therefore neither Physicians nor Kings can evite or Cure all diseases of Commonwealths by the precepts of their Arts which are delivered to them in writ M I think indeed they cannot B what if we shall further try of what things lawes may be established in Commonwealths and what cannot be comprehended within lawes M That will be worth our pains B There seems to be very many and weighty things which cannot be contained within lawes First all such things as fall into the deliberation of the time to come M All indeed B next many things already past such are these wherein truth is sought by conjecturs confirmed by witnesses or extorted by torments M Yes indeed B In unfolding then these questions what shal the King do M I see here there is no need of a long discourse seeing Kings do not so arrogat the supream Power in those things which are institute with respect to the time to come that of their own accord they call to councill some of the most prudent B What say you of those things which by conjectures are found out and made out by witnesses such as are the crimes of murther adultery and witchcraft M These are examined by the skill of Lawyers Discovered by diligence and these I find to be for the most part left to the judgment of Judges B And perhaps very right for if a King would needs be at the private causes of each Subject when shal he have time to think upon peace war and those affaires which maintain and preserve the safety of the commonwealth And lastly when shall he get leave to rest M neither would I have the cognition of every thing to be brought unto a King neither can one man be sufficient for all the causes of all men if they be brought unto him that counsel no less wise than necessary doth please me exceeding well which the father in law of Moses gave him in dividing amongst many the burden of hearing causes whereof I shall not speak much seeing the history is known to all B But I think these judges must judge according to law M They must indeed do so But as I conceive there be but few things which by lawes may be provided against in respect of those which cannot be provided against B There is another thing of no less difficulty because all these things which call for lawes cannot be comprehended by certain prescriptions M How so B Lawyers who attribute very much to their own Art and who would be accounted the Priests of justice do confess that there is so great a multitude of affaires that it may seeme almost infinit and say that daily arise new crimes in Cities as it were severall kinds of ulcers what shall a lawgiver do herein who doth accommodat lawes both to things present and preterit M Not much unless he be some divine-like person B An other difficulty doth also occurre and that not a small one that in so great an Inconstancy of humane frailty no Art can alnost prescribe any things altogether stable and firme M There is nothing more true than that B It seemeth then most safe to trust a skilfull physician in the health of the patient and also the Kings in the state of the Common wealth For a Physician without the rule of Art will often times cure a weak patient either consenting thereto or against his will and a king doth either perswade a new law yet usefull to his subjects or else may impose it against their will M I do not see what may hinder him therein B Now seeing both the one and the other do these things do you think that besides the law either of them makes his
so that he may bend it to all actions for his own benefit or advantage as the Lesbian rule Ap. Claudius in his Decemviratus made a very just law that in a liberall cause or Plea sureties should be granted for liberty What more clearly could have been spoken But by interpreting the same Author made his own Law useless You see I suppose how much liberty you give a Prince by one cast namely that what he pleaseth the Law doth say what pleaseth him not it doth not say If we shall once admit this it will be to no purpose to make good Lawes for teaching a good prince his duty and hemme in an ill King Yea let me tell you more plainly it would be better to have no Lawes at all than that freedom to steal should be tolerat and also honoured under pretext of Law M. Do you think that any King will be so impudent that he will not at all have any regard of the fame and opinion that all men have of him Or that he will be so forgetfull of his Subjects that he will degenerat into their Pravity whom he hath restrained by ignominy imprisonment confiscation of goods in a word with very grievous punishments B. Let us not believe that these things will be if they had not been done not long ago that to the exceeding great hurt of the whole world M. Where do you tell these things were done B Do you ask where As if all the Nations in Europe did not only see but feele also how much mischief hath the immoderat power and unbridled Tyranny of the pope of Rome brought upon humane affaires Even that power which from small beginning seemingly honest he had got every man doth know that no less can be feared by unwary persons At first Lawes were proposed to us not only drawn out of the innermost secrets of nature but given by God himself explaind by the Prophets from the holy Spirit at last by the Son of God by the same God confirmed committed to the writings of those praise worthy men expressed in their life sealed with their blood Neither is there in the whole Law any other place more carefully commendably or more clearly delivered than that of the Office of Bishops Now seeing it is Lawfull to no man to add any thing to these Lawes to abrogat or derogat ought therefrom or to change any thing therein there did remain but one interpretation whilst the Pope did arrogat it he not only did oppress the rest of the Churches but claimed a Tyrranny the most cruell of all that ever were daring to command not only men but Angels also plainly reducing Christ into order if this be not to reduce him into order that what thou wilt have done in heaven in earth amongst the damned in hell be ratified what Christ hath commanded let it be ratified if thou wilt for if the Law seeme to make but little for your behoofe interpreting it thus you may back-bend it so that not only by your mouth but also according to the judgment of your mind Christ is constrained to speak Christ therefore speaking by the mouth of the Pope Pipin is set in Childericks place of government Ferdinandus of Arragon substitute to John King of Navarre the Son arose in armes against his father and subjects against their King Christ is full of poison then he is forced by witches so that he killeth Henry of Luxemburg by poison M. I have heard these things often before but I desire to hear more plainly somewhat of that interpretation of lawes B. I shall offer you one example from which you may easily understand how much this whole kind is able to do The Law is A Bishop must be the husband of one wife than which Law what is more clear what may be said more plain One wife saith the Law one Church saith the Pope such is his interpretation As if that Law were made not to repress the Lust of Bishops but their avarice Now this explanation albeit it saith nothing to the purpose yet doth contain a judgment honest and pious if he had not vitiated that Law again by another interpretation What doth therefore the Pope devise for excuse It varieth saith he in regard of persons cases places times Some are of that eminent disposition that no number of Churches can satisfy their pride Some Churches again are so poor that they cannot maintain him who was lately a begging Monk if he now have a mitre if he would maintain the name of a Bishop There is a reason invented from that crafty interpretation of the Law that they may be called Bishops of one Church or other Churches given them in Commendam and all may be robbed Time would faile me if I should reckon up the cheats which are daily excogitat against one Law But albeit these things be most unbeseeming as well the name of a Pope as of a Christian yet their tyranny rests not here For such is the nature of all things that when they once begin to fall they never stay untill they fall headlongs into destruction Will you have me to shew you this by a famous example Do you not remember upon any of the Roman Emperours blood who was more cruell and wicked than C. Caligula M. There was none that I know of B. Now what was his most nefarious villany think you I do not speak of those deeds which Popes do reckon up in some reserved cases but in the rest of his life M. I do not at present remember B. What do you think of that that having called upon his horse he invited him to sup with him Set a golden grain of barley before him and made him Consul M. Indeed it was most impiously done B. What think you of that how he made the same horse his colleague in the Priesthood M. Do you tell me that in good earnest B. Indeed in good earnest nor do I admire that these things seeme to you feigned But that Roman Jupiter of ours hath done such things that those things done by Caligula may seem true to Posterity I say Pope Julius the third who seemes contended with C. Caligula a most wicked wretch for preheminence of impiety M. What did he of that kind B. He made his Ape-keeper a man almost more vile than the vilest beast his Colleague in the Papary M. Perhaps there was another cause of choosing him B. Some are reported indeed but I have picked out the most honest Seeing then so great a contempt not only of the Priesthood but also a forgetfulness of humanity arise from this freedome of interpreting Lawes beware you think that to be a small Power M. But the Ancients seeme not to have thought it so great a business of interpreting as you would have it seeme to be Which by this one argument may be understood because the Roman Emperours granted it to Lawyers which one reason doth overturne your whole tedious dispute
certain witness what Tyrants do deserve than their own Conscience thence is that perpetuall fear from all and chiefly from good men and they do constantly see hanging above their own necks the sword which they hold still drawn against others and by their own hatred against others they measure other mens minds against them But contrariwise good men by fearing no man do often procure their own hazard whilst they weigh the good will of others towards them not from the vicious nature of men but from their own desert towards others B You do then judge that to be true that Tyrants are to be reckoned in the number of the most cruell brute beasts and that Tyrannicall violence is more unnatuall than poverty sickness death and other miseries which may befall men naturally M Indeed when I do ponder the weight of your reasons I cannot deny but these things are true But whilst hazards and in conveniences do occurre which follow on the back of this opinion my mind as it were tyed up with a bridle doth instantly I know not how faile me and bendeth from that too stoicall and severe right way towards utility almost falleth away For if it shall be lawfull for any man to kill a Tyrant see how great a gape you do open for wicked men to commit any mischief and how great hazard you creat to good men to wicked men you permit licentiousness and le ts out upon all the perturbation of all things For he that shall kill a good King or at least none of the worst may he not pretend by his wicked deed some shew of honest and Lawfull duty or if any good Subject shall in vain attempt to kill a Prince worthy of all punishment or accomplish what he intended to do how great a confusion of all things do you suppose most needs follow there upon Whilst the wicked do tumultuat raging that their head and leader is taken away from them neither will all good men approve the deed nor will all those who do approve the deed defend the doer and author of their liberty against a wicked crew And many under an honest pretext of peace will vaile their own laziness or rather calumniat the vertue of others than confess their own slothfulness Surely this remembrance of self interest and excuse of leaving the publick cause and the fear of dangers if it doth not break the courage yet it weakneth the same and compelleth it to preferre tranquillity albeit not very sure to an uncertain expectation of liberty B If you well remember what is before spoken this your fear will be easily discussed For we told you that there be some Tyrannies allowed by the free suffrages of a people which we do honour with royall titles because of the moderat administration No man with my will shall put violent hand on any such nor yet on any of those who even by force or fraud have acquired soveraignty providing they use a moderat way in their government Such amongst the Romans were Vespasianus Titus Pertinax Alexander amongst the Grecians and Hiero in Syracusa Who albeit they obtained the Government by force and armes yet by their justice and equity deserved to be reckoned amongst just Kings Besides I do only shew what may be Lawfully done or ought to be done in this case but do not exhort to attempt any such thing For in the first a due consideration of the case and a clear explanation thereof is sufficient but in the last there is need of good counsell in undertaking of prudence in assaulting and courage in acting Now seeing these things are either promoved or overturned by the circumstances of time person place and other instruments in carrying on the business if any shall rashly attempt this the blame of his fault can be no more imputed to me than his fault to a Physician who hath duely described the remedies of diseases but were given by another to the patient unseasonably M One thing seemes yet to be wanting to put an end to this dispute which if you shall add I shall think I have received a very singular Kindness of you the matter is this let me understand if there be any Church Censures against Tyrants B You may take it when you please out of the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians where the Apostle doth forbid to have any fellowship either at meat or discourse with openly lewd and flagitious men If this were observed amongst Christians such lewd men unless they did repent might perish by hunger cold and nakedness M A grievous sentence indeed that is But I do not know if a people that allow so much liberty every way to their Rulers will believe that Kings should be punished after this manner B Surely the Ancient Ecclesiastick writers without exception did thus understand that sentence of Paul For Ambrose did hold out of the Assembly of the Christians Theodosius the Emperour and Theodosius obeyed the said Bishop and for what I know Antiquity doth more highly extoll the deed of no other so much nor is the modesty of any other Emperour more commended But to our purpose what difference is there betwixt the exclusion out of Christian fellowship and the interdiction from fire and water this last is a most grievous sentence imposed by Rulers against such as refuse to obey their commands and the former is a sentence of Church men Now the punishment of the contempt of both authorities is death but the Secular judge denounceth the death of the body the Ecclesiastick judge denounceth the destruction of the whole man Therefore the Church will not account him worthy of death whom it doth expell out of the fellowship of christians while he is alive and banisheth him into the fellowship of Divils when dead Thus according to the equity of the cause I think I have spoken abundantly if therewith any Forrainers be displeased I desire they would consider how unjustly they deal with us For whilst there be many Nations both great and wealthy in Europe having all their own peculiar Lawes they deale arrogantly who would prescribe to all that modell and forme of government which they them selveâ— enjoy The Helvetians government is a common wealth Germany useth the name or Title of Empire as a lawfull government Some Cities in Germany as I am informed are under the rule of Princes The Venetians have a Seignory tempered of these Muscovia hath a very Tyranny in stead of government We have indeed but a little Kingdome but we enjoy it these two thousand years free of the empire of forrain Nations We did Creat at first Lawfull Kings we did impose upon our selves and them equall and just Lawes the long continuance of time doth shew they were usefull For more by the observation thereof than by force of armes hath this Kingdom stood intire hitherto Now what iniquity is this that we should desire either to abrogat or neglect the Lawes the good whereof we have found by