be answered when it is not At the end of this Section he saith You highly wrong St. Athanasius to say he did not hear the Church Ans I should be very loath to be truely guilty of this and surely if he grants that the Church may be mistaken in the fact he may be mistaken in this Censure which he should have proceeded in secundum allegata et probata I said this St. Athanasius did differ from the rest of the Church when the whole world did groan under Arrianisme So he did not hear the Church as differing in opinion though it is not said that he did not hear the Church as disobeying the Censure Here he supposeth that upon the virtue of former Principles he may conclude of the Church No She cannot erre in an errour not damnable No Let that which was formerly granted be compared with this and we shall conclude the contrary To excommunicate a person who is not to be excommunicated is to erre The Church may excommunicate a person not to be excommunicated Therefore the minor is as good as confessed by him because the Church may be mistaken in the fact Nay he saith it in terms and so there may be an errour in the mistake of the fact He proceeds Hence that common Doctrine of Antiquity that it is not possible to have a just cause of separating from the Church Ans Besides the nullity of this upon the want of a true ground as before he doth misreport the axiom or else he must distinguish of Separating There is no just cause of Schism for the proposition hath in it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because if there be a just cause it is not Schism but though every Schism is a Separation every Separation is not Schism Take then separation in specie for Schism so it may be true but a Separation from a Church imposing errours in Faith and things unlawful in practice is not without a just cause and therefore is it not Schism It is not without a just cause by his former confession just now in those words So men should be bound to assent unto an errour which is impossible And again this is to be understood of Separating from the Catholique Church or from a particular Church for that order wherein it agrees with the Catholique But this is not our case for the Roman is but a particular Church and we separated upon Catholique Principles that so we might hold union with the Catholique Church And then again there is a difference betwixt a national reformation and a private Separation And therefore yet the distinction is not disabled namely of separating from the errours and not from the Church unless it were better proved that the Church is secured from all errour which that text doth not prove Then goes he on to take away somewhat I said to the text in my first and fifth answer to it He claps them together and would make me to conclude thus this maketh nothing for the Authority of the universal Church Ans Let them remember again for Aquinas tells us that we cannot forget natural Principles that the whole is greater than the part I allow much to a particular Church in correspondence with the Universal therefore little to their Church And if I do reply that this text belongs also to particular Churches then this doth redound to the honour of the Universal Church And that this doth belong to particular Prelats to excommunicate he himself doth confess in this Section Therefore must he conclude that I conclude for the Universal Church And yet moreover in all this long gloss upon the text how little have we had of that upon which all in this discourse turns namely whether Authority of excommunication be it in the Universal or a particular Church respects not formally the contempt not the non-assent Let them speak less or more to the purpose And yet again he would drive it on in a loose way that we have a command from God to hear the Church absolutely and universally To this purpose he saies Those who disobey the judges disobey the Common-wealth so generally speaking those who disobey the Prelats of the particular Church disobey the universal Church commanding her to proceed according to her Decrees Canons and definitions Ans Here is not much and for them less A Common-wealth is a term ambiguous and may be taken strictly or largely strictly in the form largely as including head and members And in this large sense may be considered with more respect to the Body or to the Head in confuso or in capite If he takes it in the strict sence it is not to any purpose because there is a different reason of laws in the Common-wealth and in the Church For in a Common-wealth so Laws proceed from them as the efficient thereof but in the Church truths and duties do come from God and therefore in such cases the disobedience reflects upon God Now the case we dispute upon is in necessary truths and duties If he understand a Common-wealth largely and then with more particular repute to the people the disobedience to the judges doth not reflect upon them unless objectively and consequently because though they are not their Judges by way of Authority yet they are their Judges in way of End for their good If it be taken with more relation to the head whose judges they are by authoritative commission it is true that the disobedience to the Judge doth redound upon him but here is difference betwixt them for particular Prelats do not depend upon the universal Church as Judges do upon the Head of a Common-wealth because Bishops have their Authority by divine right which was contended for hotly in the Trent Council and had proceeded affirmatively had not the Roman Court bandied against it And then also the matter of disobedience we speak of is from God not the universal Church but the matter of Civil disobedience to the Judge is from the Head And then again we do not speak of disobedience positive which my Adversary doth instance in but in obedience which is negative And then again particular Prelats are not so bound in things of particular order as the people are bound to the Laws of a particular Nation And also then this will redound to the Adversaries prejudice for the particular Prelats of their Church have not proceeded according to the Canons Decrees and definitions of the universal Church as hath been shewed And also this is against them because then my Adversary confesseth that this text under debate is competible fairly to particular Churches and therefore they have no reason to appropriate it to themselves And so upon the whole matter we can say as much in a due respect to the Catholique Church as they do here and yet hold our own So then he doth not contradict here And yet again he is importunate to prove that disobedience to the Church at last redounds to Christ and God out of the 16.
errour not damnable because also it very true which you lately said that so men should be bound to assent unto an errour which is impossible Hence that common doctrine of Antiquity That it is not possible to have a just cause to separate from the Church And it cannot be said that any man separates himselfe not from the Church but her errours being she is secured from all errour as appeareth manifestly by our obligation to hear her you tell me that this text obliging to hear the Church is meant onely of trespasses betwixt Brother and Brother which trespasses are also to be told to every particular Church and to Severall Prelates and therefore this place say you maketh nothing for the authoritty of the Vniversall Church Sir I grant particular trespasses are to be referr'd ro particular Prelats and that the Church is not to be called to a general Counsel for every private mans trespasses singular private men are to be condemned by the particular Prelates of their particular Churches proceeding according to the known Decrees and Orders of the Universal Church If he clearly disobeyeth them thus proceeding he disobeyeth the Universall Church And for this act merely deserveth according to Gods own judgement to be accounted as a Publican and Heathen So he who disobeyeth the particular Judge judging according to the known Lawes of the Common-wealth disobeyes the Common-wealth And it is this not obeying the Church and the not hearing her which exaggerates the crime whence you see the not hearing the particular Prelates in so well ordered a Communitie as the Church is may come to be commonly the self same crime with the not hearing of the Church And because all such Prelates when the contrary is not apparently manifest are supposed to do their duty in giving sentence according to the known Decrees Orders and Canons of the Universal Church as we usually say those who disobey the Judges disobey the Commonwealth so generally speaking those who disobey the Prelates of the particular Church disobey the Universal Church commanding them to proceed according to her Decrees Definitions and Canons So that at last this disobedience is against Christ and God himself according to that which God said to Samuel Lib. 1. Cap. 8. They have not rejected thee but they have rejected me And Christ to his Disciples the first Prelates of the Church He that despiseth you despiseth â—â— And therefore Christ commanded the lawful Successours of Moses to be followed in what they delivered by publick authority although they were wicked in their private lives and many of them publickly did teach Errours though not by publick authoritie or authorized by any Definition of that Seat which private Errours Christ called the Leaven of the Pharisees bidding his Apostles take heed of it But concerning what that Seat did by publick Definition Christ was so far from bidding people to take heed of it that he in as general terms as men speak when they would speak without any exception Said to the whole promiscuous multitude and also to his disciples upon the Chair of Moses have setten the Scribes Pharieses All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and doe Mark these most ample words All therefore whatsoever O! will you say what if they bid us do against the Scriptures Why this very saying of Christ sheweth they were secured from ever doing against the Scripture when they proceeded by way of defining with Publick authority If you object that they condemned our Saviour by publike authority you have your Answer Number 9. Say I we must hear the Church and because we must Universally hear her for she doubtless hath to the full as much reason to be heard as the old Iewish Church then had she must be confessed to have full assurance never to gainsay the Scripture And as the Synagogues Authortity was not limited so as to be obeyed and heard onely in point of trespasse betwixt Brother and Brother but was to be extended to All whatsoever they should order So you can not with out depressing the Authority of Christs Church who had a better Covenant established upon better promises Hebrews 8.6 hinder her power from being extended to All whatsoever she shall Order It must not therefore be confined only to trespasse betwixt Brother and Brother But we must of necessity for the reason now expressed argue thus That being she is to be heard even in Controversies concerning trespasses betwixt Brother and Brother much more is she to be heard in such trespasses as are committed by one Brother against all his Brothers and their dearest Mother the Church Then or never he is to be complained of And if this obstinacy in persevering in trespasses betwixt Brother and Brother deserveth that a Man should be held as a Publican and a Heathen he incomparably more deserveth to be held so who being commanded by the Church to desist from such pernicious opinions as ruine the Soules of his Brothers and tear asunder the bowells of his Mother still persists in his impious doctrine and in that most infectious and Soulmurthring crime of heresie the most heinous trespass against all our Brothers Either such a crime or no crime is to be told the Church Yea Saint Thomas calleth Schisme of which Heresie is alwaies guilty the highest sin against the whole Comunity of our brother hood Now this crime is to be told first to the particular Prelats as soon as it is perceivd to be begining to creep like a canker as the Scripture saith Heresie doth If by this judgement of particular Prelats this crime be clearely found to be indeed Heresie or a doctrine opposit to the known former definitions of the Church Universall they are to excommunicate him who is pertinacious in this soul-murthering Crime and this sentence is sure to be ratified in Heaven because he who hath opposed in Doctrine the known Definitions of the Church hath not heard nor obeyed her for which onely fact according to the clear sentence of Scripture he deservedly is to be accounted as a Publican or Heathen Now if the Crime be not clearly against the known doctrine of the Universal Church or not so evident against it but many hold the contrary the particular Prelates are bound to acquaint the head of the Church therewith This supreme Prelate of the Church is bound to use the fulness of his authoritie to supresse the arising Heresie He may forbid if he feareth danger in the doctrine that no such doctrine be published untill the Church shall think it fit And then all must doe as Saint Paul saith Hebr. 13. v. 27. Obey their Prelates Thus far the power of the supreme Prelates is extended by the consent of the whole Church He therefore that in this case obeyeth not is guilty of not bearing the Church which single crime maketh a man deservedly accounted as a Publican or Heathen Now though the Supreme head of the Church be as infallible as Saint Peter was yet if
he seeth this newly vented doctrine fit to be declared Heresie if it be so or to be imbraced if it be fitting and proposed to all Christendome then is the true time of calling a general Council and not to let the people contend by allegations of Scripture So though the Apostles were all infallible in their Doctrine yet they would not determine that grave question Acts 15. without calling a Council To consider of this word in which there was made a great disputation for this is necessarie for the fuller conviction of Hereticks fuller satisfaction of the weaker sort and further comfort of the whole Church to see truth to triumph upheld by the shoulders of all Christendom what proceeding could be more sweet or more orderly what exposition more agreable to this Text Tell the Church which denuntiation is to proceed by degrees from lower to higher Judges as is there expressed And Consequently when the sentence of the Highest tribunal of all is rejected then or never a man is deservedly to be accounted a Publican or a Heathen for not hearing the Church universall She therefore under so great a penalty being alwayes to be heard is secured from all kind of errour what soever in matters of faith belonging to her tribunall and so we must grant her to be infallible I have then already found out such a judge as I sought for a judge in matters of faith a living judge and infallible as you would have him wih an infallibility excluding all errour in what soever he proposeth or decreeth or all possibility of errour For if it were possible for this judge to impose an errour Christ could not possibly have declared it to be so heinous a crime not to hear the Church being that it might have been no crime at all He obliged all to obey and hear her she therefore cannot lead us into an error For as you truly say To be bound to assent to an errour is impossible Our infallibility of knowledge concerning this point is as great as it is of those points which are delivered by Scripture And therefore you may stand up to my Creed and that far more securely then stand out against such a Church the not hearing of which is so great a crime This Church is infallible and by manifest consequence only the Roman Church as I shall demonstrate the next Chapter Number 2. 7. Here by the way you tell me That If I would go the right way in this Dispute I should use another method for whereas I would argue the Church to be this Judge which we cannot safely disobey I should rather shew a priori That the Church is infallible in whatsoever it doth define and therefore ought to be obeyed in all things whatsoever But Sir when I come to use this very method I do foresee that it will so gald you that you will cry out to have this burthensome heavy argument cast upon the other shoulder from which you now would have it shifted to avoid the present trouble it causeth you you shall see if it fall not out as I said And that in this Chapter Numb 52. Of my 18th Number 8. As for St. Austins Authority I must here lay it aside as well as every where else for fear I should lose my labour even after I have proved what I should 9. You fly upon me for flying to that Text of Malachy 2.7 The Priests Lips shall keep Knowledge and they shall require the Law from his Mouth because he is the Angel of the Lord of Hosts Concerning the translation of which Text I truly charge your Bible of corruption for reading thus The Priests Lips should keep the Law and they should seek the Law at his Mouth Whereas all Originals speak clearly in the future tense as the Hebrew doth and also the Greek and Latin which two Languages want not a subjunctive Mood you ask Is this Text meant of the Priests of Rome I told you it was not And I did say expresly that I added this Text to take away from you all wondering at us for allowing that to be practised towards the Priests of the new Law whose authority doubtlesse excells those of the old Law which was practised towards the Priests of the old Law in which those who searched for the true knowledge of the Law were not directed to seek that knowledge by their own reading the Scriptures but they were to search it by having recourse to the Priests who never universally should fail at any time mark that I speak by universal consent to deliver false doctrine As for private Priests they be like Private translations of the word of God If what they deliver agree with the doctrine of the Church their doctrine is infallible not for their private delivery of it but for the authority of their Church as Translators are not to be believed for their authority but for their agreeing with the word of God But there is a vast difference in this that the agreeing of the Translation with the Original is wonderful hard to know especially when the Original it selfe cannot be known by those who admit of an infallible Church by any infallible knowledge The argument of the Priests with the Publick Doctrine of the Church is easily known because her doctrine is so carefully published amongst all understanding men And as it is easy to know that Homo doth truly signifie a man for though one ignorant or malitious Fellow should say it signified a beast yet the consent of all others would manifest that mans perversity If a question were proposed in a matter of doubt in which their opinions varied then men are to proceed as I just now declared Num. 9. And then when the cause should be decided by the High Priests he who would not not hear him was deservedly put to death Deutronomy 17. I know you told me in another place that the Jewish Church erred I did deny it why Did not they erre in condemning our Saviour Yes but then the Jewish Church erred not The true high Priest without whom there is no true Representative Church erred not Caiphas was not the true High Priest for another was lawfully declared to be so This other true High Priest was Christ who before his condemnation had sufficiently for a legall declaration proclaimed himself to be the true Messias the true Anointed of our Lord. This true high Priest erred not The true head of the Church not erring the Church cannot be said to erre The true head of the Church defined not with the Council of Ariminumt Saint Athanasius was bound to follow the Church defining which defined not in that Council for the Head of the Church not defining with the body the whole body or Church defined not Therefore I say again you erre when you say He should have been bound in Conscience by the censure of the Church to have been an Arrian The Church is the High Priest defining with a lawful general Council The High
and none but this from the infallible Authority of Scripture hath no colour or shadow of Scripture or any thing like Scripture You must therefore ground your faith not upon Scripture but upon Reason Now the reason upon which you reject the Scripture is because you have a necessity of an external infallible Judge ever since the whole Canon was finished And for this onely reason without any Text you put the Scriptures sufficiency to expire and give up the ghost even after the finishing of the Canon Now if the reason for which you discard the Scriptures sufficiency be this because all points are not sufficiently cleared by Scripture then there can be no other prudent reason for which you in this one point may suppose the Scripture to be sufficient than this that that one point namely that we are to repair to the Church for all things necessary to salvation cannot be infallibly ascertain'd by the Church And therfore there is a greater necessity to have recourse to the sufficiency of Scripture undoubtedly infallible in all points which doth not causally bring forth their opinion of the Church Let me put them to it Doth the Scripture bring forth their opinion of the Church or doth it not If it doth not what hold have they for the Church And why do they make use of the Scripture to give Letters of Credence to the Church If it doth then there is an end of this Controversie Now the two inferences he would have me mark as clearly deduced from my principles are grounded but upon a supposition and therefore not to be marked but returned upon his concession First That all points necessary are plainly set down in Scripture for no point more necessary than this without which there is no coming to the belief of any thing in the Church and yet this point is not plainly set down in Scripture nor that the Church is infallible obscurely Yea whereas he saies the Scripture sends us to the Church the Universal Church doth send us to the infallible Scripture for our necessary direction And this would give them satisfaction if it could serve their turn Moreover the second thing which he would have me mark halts upon the same unequal ground of supposing me to affirm what was but supposed Yet also we can send it home again and I can say that their former concession spoken of before doth overthrow that principle which is the ground-work of their faith For if there be a greater necessity to acknowledge the direction of Scripture in things necessary for as much as concerns this one point of the Church because this one point in particular is less clear of it self that grand principle of theirs which is or must be their principle evidently appeareth false namely that the Testimony of the Church is evidently seen by its own light which must be or else they are all undone And again how is it possible that there should be a greater necessity on the one side to have recourse to the Scripture for the infallible direction of the Church because it cannot be proved infallible by it self and yet on the other side this point of all other points hath this particular priviledge to be so manifest that it beareth witness of it self that it carrieth its own light with it So they may see what they get by taking a supposition for an Affirmation Tacitus's rule is good let nothing be thought prosperous which is not ingenuous Some other lines he hath in this Section to tell me what he hath done before and I have undone But as to a passage which I used out of Bellarmine to confirm a Dilemma which he tells me here that he hath broken before lest the contrary should have been better discerned upon the place he referred me to Bellarmin l. 1. c. 1. In fine as much as I can reade the hand I made use of Bellarmin against new Revelations beside Scripture and therefore we cannot believe the Church for it self because we cannot believe it but by a Revelation and no Revelation beside Scripture as he disputes against the Anabaptists For my answer he puts me off to the former place I think in the end And there is little to the business He saies indeed in the end That we do receive the Prophetical and Apostolical Books according to the minde of the Catholick Church as of old it is laid out in the Council of Carthage and the Council of Trent to be the Word of God Et certam ac stabilem regulam fidei and the certain and stable rule of faith Now I hope these latter words are for us For if these words be taken in their just and full sense then the cause is ours If the Scripture be the certain and stable rule of faith then it must be clear otherwise how is it a certain rule and therefore no need of an infallible Judge And it must be sufficient alwaies otherwise how is it a stable rule and so it excludes Traditions But sure that is not the Chapter because my Adversary saies in that place where he speaketh of the Maccabees in particular which he doth not speak of in the first That Chapter where he particularly speaks of the Maccabees is the fifteenth but there is nothing to the purpose neither Thus he puts me to the hunt lest he should be at a loss Well but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is surely in the tenth Chapter where at the end he answers as my Adversary doth to S. Ieroms Authority against the Booke of Maccabees But this is besides the Butt For that which I looked for to be answered out of Bellarmin was the other point of no revelation beside Scripture It is true that I did in the same place name Bellarmine as relating S. Ieroms differing from my Adversarie about the Book of the Maccabees But why should I expect an answer to Bellarmine in this testimony when he produceth it onely that he might refute it that which I should have had satisfaction in out of Bellarmine was spoken by him out of his own judgement But again why did not my Adversary save me the labour of looking up and down for the passage by giving me the entire words of the Cardinal there I might have thought my Adversary would have been 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and he proves rather 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For he thought it was not requisite that I should finde the place because there are some adjacent words which I can improve He saies Ierome was of that opinion quia nondum Generale Concilium de his libris aliquid statuerat excepto Libro Judith quem etiam Hieronymus postea recepit Mark the words Because the General Council had not yet determined any thing of those Books except the Book of Iudith which also afterwards S. Ierome received So then it seems a General Council had before taken these Books into consideration namely that of Toby and Iudith and of the Maccabees and determined nothing but