and restoring Mr Ward agreed upon was it not upon the newes of the Parliament and the probability of the revolution of things And I propound this question because Mr Bâ—…rroughs who came in M. Wards place after his deposition came backe to England but at the beginning of the Parliament and till he came or was resolved to come it is not probable M. Ward was restored and if so that it was done when all was like to breake up and they to come fâ—… England may we not suspect it was done for an instance to vindicate your way with and to serve your turne as in this Apologie rather then from any necessitie of righting a person â—…jured or correcting a Church offending 5. Why did not the Church of Arnheim take offence as well at M. Sympsons Church and at his schisme in setting up another Church and at all that bitternesse evill speaking betweene those two Churches the ground indeed and foundation of that unhappy businesse about M. Ward and of all the evill committed therein and accordingly have required M. Sympsons Church to have submitted but here is not a hint of this in all the relation of your practise I have a letter out of Holland by me that concerning this businesse writes thus That though M. Sympson with sâ—…me fâ—…w morâ—… râ—…t themselves from M. Bridges Church to the great offence thereof yet M. Goodwin and his Associates when they came to heare the businesse about M. Ward never questioned that scandall I meane of their schisme from the same Church Now if it were so was not this a partiall remedie not reaching to all the offence noâ—… to the bottome of it why did you not summon both these Churches in the matter of scandall and difference to submit as well as one of the Churches will not your principles serve in difference betweene Churches as for difference in one Church or was it that there was no complaint of neither side or was it because you are tender of questioning the multiplication of Churches though by seperation and schiâ—…me Or what was the reason you questioned not that 6. Whether were the other Churches of our Nation or any of them who could not but be offended as them of Amsterdam Hague Utrich Leyden Delph cal'd in by Arnheim or by the Church at Roterdam to joyne in the hearing trying of that businesse and deposing Witnesses or did they send Messengers or was it onely agitated by two Ministers â—…nd two Messengers of tâ—… Church of Arnheim one Church onely 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 one to one both equall and whether there can be the like majesty and solemnity of a meeting where they are equall â—…ay an inferiority in as much as a representative Church consisting of foure is below a Church represented as in a Presbyteriall assâ—…bly I have a Letter from Holland by me wherein a godly Ministâ—…r writes thus I was desired by Mr Ward to be present at that meeting but when the time came neither I nor any other English Ministers but they of Arnheim were callâ—…d 7. To what or to how much did your practise who were the Church offended amount unto upon Mr Bridges Church submission and your full hearing and finding both sides to be in an errour did you injoyne and draw up an order that the Church offending should publikely acknowledge their sinfâ—… abeâ—…ation before you and the commers of all sorts and restore their Minister againe and that they should keep a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves for their sinfull carriage and that the Minister deposed should acknowledge to the Church wherein he had likewise sinned or did you leave them to themselves upon your finding the offence to doe what they thought fitting both Church and Minister as being against your principles for one Church to decree and impose any thing upon another and so they â—…ooke up this way voluntarily would you would speake out and once tell us plainely what you hold and what you woâ—…ld 〈◊〉 that so the Reader might judge of the effectualnessâ—… of your 〈◊〉 8. I aske of you whether Mr Bridge with the offending Church at Rotterdam did sit as Judges with them oâ—… 〈◊〉 in their own cause to examine depose c. or else 〈◊〉 by aâ—… delinquents to be charged tried c. 9. I deâ—…e to know of you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he was râ—…stored did as formely officiate in that Church and how long and whether Mr Bridge and he continued there as fellow Ministers and whether both between them two and between the Church and Mr Ward there was that mutuall carriage as before and ought to be between fellow Ministers and Ministers and people 10. How can a Church representative be a sufficient and allowed remedy to take up great offences in a Church at a great distance and whether this implies not an implicit faith in the represented to let the representers upon hearing put a finall determination and conclusion to great offences and differences without returning back the businesse to the Church represented or so much as ever acquainting them with the businesse before all was ended as was in this particular case and whether Mr Robinsâ—…s arguments against the Presbyterians â—…bout the power of their Elders be not strong against your principles and practises here related and what ground is there from tâ—…e Scripture that foure men of another Church should have power to call unto and insist upon a judiciarie charge against them who were greater then themselves namely against a whole Church consisting of officerâ—… and people 11. Suppose the Church of Arâ—…m who sent two Ministerâ—… and two Gentlemen â—…s messengers of their Church upon their returne back to the Church and giving an account of all the proceedings and issue of that businesse had disliked the determinations and judged some of the proceedings unjust otherâ—… unsatisfactory and not according to the rules of the word as the Church of 〈◊〉 might well have done there being just ground for it as I will shew in the second particular under the next head What must have been done in this case must the messengers themselves have been now questioned by the Church for managing matters no better or must the sentences agreed upon both for the Church and Mr Ward be reversed or must other messengers be sent to heare matters againe and to change or adde what was amisse and what if the Church would not alter that which upon so full a hearing and triall was agreed upon now I aske of you and appeale to the Reader considering that the Church or Churches themselves may probably and it cannot but be expected 〈◊〉 and vary in their judgements from their messengers about the determination of offences and differences whether this be a likely meanes and sufficient remedy to end all strifed or rather will not be as the beginning of new strife and an occasion of endlesse contentions 12. In this way of submission of Churches and your practises upon occasion of offences and
only and the highest powers can they alwayes heare or attend unto through the many great businesses of State affaires all the differences scandals schismes that both in particular Churches and betweene Churches will fall out in a Kingdome or Nation in this way of non-communion and protestation against one another especially in Independent Churches where people make Churches and Ministers in that way they doe and have no fixed rules nor certaine way I warrant the supreame Magistrate and higher Powers Kings and Parliaments shall have something to doe to back the sentence of non-communion and to heare all causes and differences But if you understand the inferiors also Majors Bailiffs c. I represent it to you what fit judges most of them are to judge and determine of such difficult Ecclesiasticall causes in heresies schismes scandals c. which fall out amongst the Ministers of Churches and between Churches themselves Againe If you understand the Magistrate indefinitely and obsolutely any Magistrate though Heathen Popish Arrian as Mr Robinson doth in his Apologie and I find it in your manuscripts and principles that you take it so judge then in your selves if the Church hath not remedies among themselves how fit are they who understand not Christian religion nor the doctrines according to godlinesse to judge of the great differences between Churches and to assist the sentence of non-communion against Churches if the Apostle Paul reproved the Corinthians so in 1 Cor. 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. for cariying matters from the Church even the smallest matters the things that pertained to this life unto unbeleevers how would he blame the carrying of things spirituall and Ecclesiasticall unto Heathen from the Ministers of the Church or doe you understand that there shall be Courts of civill Judicature to appeale unto c. then there must be certaine Laws and rules agreed upon as for particular Churches so between the Churches according to which they must proceed to back the sentence of non-communion and protestation c. which yet you practise not Now the many inconveniences that would come of such Courts you may easily fore-see so that this is not like to be an effectuall remedy 6. What shall be done in case there be no Magistrates at all to take any notice in matters of Religion and Church government but leave Churches to themselves in that as it was with you in Holland there were no Magistrates medled with the government and order of your Churches nor none to have recourse unto or to backe the sentence of Non-communion you being in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authoritie either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced you what shall in this case supply the defect of Excommunication and of an Ecclesiasticall authoritative power Hath not the wisdome of Christ provided remedies in the Church for all the internall necessities of the Church and constituted it a perfect bodie within it selfe 7. Whether can it be rationally and probably thought that in an ordinary way the having recourse unto the Magistrate though orthodox and the submitting to his particular cognizance and examination of such causes with his backing the sentence of Non-communion in Ecclesiasticall causes in cases of sinnes errours differences that arise in Churches should be as effectuall and sufficient a remedie as the way of Classes and Synods and that the Magistrates interposing their authoritie and power of another nature will be as good as the Authoritative Presbyteriall Governement in all the subordinations and proceedings of it Now that 't is not probable it should be or that it should serve in stead of Synods and Classes take these probable and rationall grounds 1. All wanton wits and erroneous spirits all your Sectaries and Novelists are rather for this way then for Synods and Classes though most of them would have neither to meddle at all in matters of Religion as the Socinians Anabaptists c. Thus the Arminians were against Classes and Synods and all for the power of Magistrates and it was their chiefe Engine by which in those sad daies of the Netherlands they encreased their partie and came to such a height Sectaries hope that if they can decline the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they sha'l what by flatterie and what by delay through other great businesses of State and what by sophismes and fallacies and what from principles of policie in many States-men and what by friends c. effect that which they have no hopes at all by Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they know the Presbyteries and Synods are able to discover their fallacies answer their arguments will mind those businesses wholly are not to be wrought upon by State principles c. Now if in experience and reason this way were as powerfull to reduce a Church or Churches from schisme and heresie they would never be so much for this way rather then Presbyterie 2. Naturall reason dictates that they are best able and fittest to judge and resolve of things who doe above others give themselves to the studie and profession of those things as Physitians can best judge of wholesome meats and diseases and Lawyers of the lawes and differences arising in them a Counsell of Warre of difficult cases and points in warre And therefore in things that belong to the spirituall good of the soule and the Church the Ministers of the Church are most likely to resolve and to remedie things Can it ordinarily be expected that the Magistrate should in matter of doctrine and opinion in matters of schisme and in matters of worthinesse and abilities of Ministers and in many cases that arise be able to judge and determine matters as the Ministers and Pastours of the Church 3. Those who have most time and leisure to attend a worke and businesse to sift into it to heare all that can be said and can mind it they being able and understanding are likeliest to determine best and bring things to a good end we see in experience that able and honest men through multitudes of businesse delay long slubber over businesses and cannot doe things so effectually as they ought and seldome prove good Arbitratours in difficult intricate cases Now Magistrates through many great and necessarie businesses of State having large dominions cannot so well attend as the Classes and Synods to heare and examine all the differences scandals schismes c. that doe and may arise both in Churches and betweene Churches especially as would fall out in the Independent way and particularly in this way of submission Non-communion and mutuall Protestation but matters would be delayed and neglected or escape wholly or be hudled up 4. To these I might adde as followes that the Magistrate through his just greatnesse would not know the spirits and dispositions of Ministers people nor of other matters so well as the Ministers who live among them and converse with one another frequently neither would there be that easinesse of accesse to the Magistrates and great persons as
had gathered about us or were rather cast upon our persons in our absence begun by our presence againe and the blessing of God upon us in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for our selves and cause And now if upon your presence only and that without speaking a word they vanished and were scattered how did they then vanish upon speaking for your selves and way and then how could this cloud of mistakes c. so easily blowne away by your breath nay without your breath be so great an affliction to you certainely you are men very tender of any mistake misapprehension or reproach upon you but I thinke it may be salved by your comparison as great to us as our former troubles and banishment both much alike great that is neither of them But what meane you by that parenthesis wherein we might seeme to differ did but your opinions seeme to differ from ours and doe they not really why then have you and doe you make all this adoe in our Church as for your opinions and wayes environed with mistakes and misapprehensions I know nothing for my part hath been fasten'd upon your wayes but what hath been found in letters manuscripts your known practises and in printed books of New-England and in the discourses of your own members and familiars But if some men who have not studied the points nor given themselves to understand your way did mistake and misapprehend you that was your own fault that walking so in the darke and having been so often desired to give a Narrative of what you hold in difference never yet would As for the calumnies east upon you of Schismes Independencie and Brownisme with the reasons inserted to vindicate your selves from them I shall first give a generall answer to them together and then to each of them apart 1. In generall how ever you doe in words wash your hands of these imputations and wipe your mouthes confidently denying them yet all the water in the Thames will not wash you from all just imputation of these It is no new thing for men who goe in bye wayes and maintaine errors whether more fundamentall or superstructory to abominate the names and titles given to those opinions whether from the Authors who first broacht them or from the matter of them and to deny the opinions and points charged upon them by finding out some distinctions or doubtfull words and expressions to cloud them with in which sense they wrap up themselves and deceive many and so give other names I might fill up a book in giving Instances out of antient and moderne writers of this Artifice Those who are commonly called Saracens their name is Haggarens as comming of Hagak but they would not be so called but name themselves Saracens sons of the free-woman The Schwenefeldians cal'd by Luther Philip Melancton and other famous Divines Stenckfeldians from the ill savour of their opinions yet Schuvenckfeldius entituled them with that glorious name the confessors of the glory of Christ. The Antinomians will not endure to be called by that name but stile themselves the Hearers of the Gospell and of Free-grace the old Separatists could not endure to be called Brownists or Barrowists as appeares by the title of Mr Robinsons Apologie so you will not endure the titles of Schisme Separation Independencie but you call it the Congregationall government and the Church way and an entire full compleate power but by no meanes Independent government that will not be indured As no sin will be called willingly by its own name but takes other names drunkennesse will be cal'd good fellowship covetousnesse good husbandry and providence so few errors will be called after the name of the first father or the matter simply they hold and I could give you many reasons of this amongst others take these 1. Many are possessed by books and arguments against such and such errours under such names and titles now that erroneous men may avoid all the dint of the arguments and the impressions such names and termes have left upon many they disclaime the ould and invent new words and phrases against which the people have not been possest the better to take them 2. Erroneous spirits would have nothing fixt or certaine to be fastned on them upon which able men might bring arguments and reasons against them But the reader shall see all this will not help you but that the just charge of these must lye upon you 2. To answer particularly You are justly charged of Schisme and Separation and if you consult with the Scriptures and Authors both antient and moderne Austin Calvin Zanchius Morneus Peter Martyr Iunius Perkins Parker and see what they write of schisme and separation you will be found guilty of it and as for the argument brought by you by which you would cleare your selves from schisme that it must either relate to your differing from the former Ecclesiasticall government of Bishops or to that constitution and government that is yet to come c. I answer though it relate to neither of them yet it may arise from other causes your disjunctive proposition doth not containe a full enumeration of all the causes or reasons of schisme for the non-conformists did of old differ from that former Ecclesiasticall government and yet were never justly accused of separation and schisme but writ most vehemently against it neither is schisme to be judged of upon some difference in judgement which may be from that constitution and government that is yet to come for though some men should differ from it as not holding it the best government yet so long as they separate not from the publike worship and ordinances neither doe draw people into separated Assemblies they cannot be charged with separation The ground therefore of schisme imputed to you comes as from your forsaking our publike Assemblies and separating from Gods ordinances and his servants because of mixt communion and setting up of Churches against our Church and going on still in that way notwithstanding all the Reformation begun and that which is likely to be perfected so also from not joyning your selves with the other reformed Churches But if you say that you cannot be counted guilty of schisme and separation because you doe not withdraw from us with condemnation of us as no true Churches nor true Ministers as the Brownists doe I answer you doe the same thing they doe though upon different grounds Now suppose a woman should withdraw from her husband and joyne to another ordinarily yet not with condemnation of him as no husband but would now and then keep communion with him suppose a servant forsake his Master and joyne to another yet comes away without rayling against him doth this justifie him But why make you such a businesse of it as you doe to forsake the communion of all our Churches and of all the reformed Churches and of joyning to Churches only of such a constitution if you condemned them
complaints and appeals now the Presbyterians in that give the Magistrate a power about the use and abuse of Ecclesiasticall discipline and Ecclesiasticall Causes and businesses yea and definitive to namely a politicall objective consequent power which may be diversly exercised both ordinarily and extraordinarily in a Church constituted and in a good estate and in a Church fallen and corrupted Voetius in his disputations upon that question In whose hands the Ecclesiasticall power is a great Presbyterian in that question grants and gives to the Magistrate a publick judiciall power of judging not onely with the judgement of knowledge but definitive in causes and matters Ecclesiasticall which judgement is consequent not antecedent because the ultimate disquisition is not in that whether that be true but whether they will by publicke Authoritie maintaine and execute that So * Apollonius in his Answer to Vedelius where he strongly pleads for the Presbyterians in that point of Ecclesiasticall power yet gives much to the Magistrate ordinarily in a Church constituted and well reformed in the point of this part of power and extraordinarily in the state of a Church corrupted and greatly disordered when the doctrine is corrupted and the Sacraments contaminated with idolatrous rites and discipline turned into tyrannie and when the Ministerie and all Ecclesiasticall meetings both inferiour and superiour conspire to oppresse the truth of God and to establish tyrannie in the Church in such cases the Magistrate may do many things besides the ordinary way now let me entreate you to consult the books of the Presbyterians and especially Apollonius answer to Vedelius of the severall particulars of the power of Magistrates about the use and abuse of discipline in a constituted Church besides the power given them in extraordinarie cases and in your Reply to this Answer satisfie me what you give more But let me tell you whatever power you five may have found out for the Magistrate which the principles of Presbyteriall government will not suffer them to yeeld some new power may be like that devise of Non-communion of Churches and Protestation to all Churches that they may doe the like yet your Churches may not grant it and so the Magistrates shall be never the nearer the power you give the Magistrate in the 17. and 19. pag. is not yeelded by many of your own Churches whereof you are Ministers A Gentleman a prime member of one of your Churches immediately after the comming forth of your Apologeticall Narration disclaimed and renounced that power of the Magistrate exprest by you in the hearing of a Minister a member of the Assembly who related it to me But what is it wherein you give more to the Magistrates sure there is something you meane and aime at in it if we could find it out suffer me to guesse at it and you shall see though you doe not formally expresse so much yet I have some reason to judge so First Doe you not meane in this phrase the Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld that your Church-way consisting all of particular Congregations and not growing into great bodies by combinations and Synods the Magistrates power is greater over you in that he may easily deale with you and dissolve you at pleasure but for a power to grow into so great a body an Ecclesiasticall power as large as the civill so combined this may be formidable and dangerous to the State and too great for the Magistrate hereafter to rectifie this hath been by an active Independent upon discourse of these points suggested to me and how farre one of you hath reasoned thus in the hearing of many against Presbyteriall government and for Congregationall you can remember Or secondly Doe you understand by this phrase that when heresies schismes or strange opinions are broacht in your Churches and you cannot tell what to doe with them nor how to suppresse them nor how to have the persons censured being so powerfull in particular Congregations whereof they are members in such a case you give the civill Magistrate a power to question them for these heresies schismes and to imprison banish c. if they doe not revoke them New-England practising the way of Independencie and not having Classes Synods that have authoritative power to call to account and censure such persons were necessitated to make use of the Magistrates and to give the more to them a power of questioning for doctrines and judging of errors and punishing with imprisonment banishment and they found out a prety fine destinction to deceive themselves with and to salve the contrariety of this practise to some other principles that the Magistrate questioned and punished for these opinions and errors which now for want of Ecclesiasticall discipline and censure they knew not what to doe with not as heresies and such opinions but as breaches of the civill peace and disturbances to the Common-wealth which distinction if the Parliament would have learned from you and proceeded upon they might long agoe have put downe all your Churches and Congregations and justly have dealt with you as the Magistrates in New-England did with Mr Williams and the Antinomians Familists and Anabaptists there and yet have said they punished you not for your consciences nor because of such opinions but because your opinions ways and practises were an occasion of much hurt to the Common-wealth a breach of civill peace a great cause of many people sitting so loose from the Parliament a great hinderance to the Reformation and a ground of much distraction to the publike and of strengthening the enemy whereas the Presbyterians give the power in cases of heresies errors c. that are not remedied in the particular Congregation to Classes Synods Assemblies to question convince judge of censure and to apply spirituall remedies proper to spirituall diseases which I am confident of had such been in New-England in the Presbyteriall way there had never beene so many imprisoned banished for errors nor the Magistrates put upon that distinction Or thirdly Is it that you doe give a power to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things of the ultimate determination of matters purely Ecclesiasticall which the Presbyterians principles doe not as now in matters of doctrine and in matters of scandall and in matters of censures excommunication deposition c. which are brought before and have past in Ecclesiasticall Assemblies to appeale from them to the civill Magistrate and to carry causes from thence to civill Courts to repeale and revoke them Your words and passages about the Magistrates power imply this and I find that many quick sighted men as the Walachrian classis nay a whole Synod after them in their late Letters to the Assembly apprehend you so and therefore I may upon good grounds judge besides the two former that you aime at this third in saying you give more to the Magistrates power then the Presbyterians
of this Apologie But the Reader may aske what is the plaine English of the streame of publike interest according to which there was so great danger the Assembly would swimme I answer I conceive one of these two things or else it is probable both are meant by the Apologists 1. That the Ministers of the Assembly for themselves and their fellow Ministers would stand for such a government as wherein the power should be in their own hands and not in the peoples to doe with them for maintenance and standing at their pleasure and therefore they would establish Presbyteriall government rather then Independent 2. The Parliament of England upon great Armies raised against them needing help calls in for the Kingdome of Scotland to assist them now the Scots being for Presbyteriall government and against Independent and desirous of uniformity in government between the Kingdomes therefore for gratifying the Scots the Assembly is like to be swayed that way is this the streame of publike interest meant by you oh how unworthy an insinuation is this and how prejudicall this will be to the Reformation in after times I desire you to consider of in coole blood and what the enemies will say of it the government and Reformation of this Church was not free not according to the word of God but what Scotland would have Englands need of Scotland made them at least swayed much to take up their government but how ever this is insinuated for the holding up the credit of your cause against the time the Assembly shall come to reject it as Apocripha yet I must tell you you foresaw that which is no such streame of publike interest nor no cause of disadvantage to you For the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were not sent hither to put their government upon us but came as well to receive any light and help as to give and to come to us in what should be found upon debate more agreeable to the word as we to come to them and the Covenant of the Kingdomes doth not tye us to the Reformation of the Church of Scotland but binds us to Reformation according to the word of God and the example of the best reformed Churches and then requires both of us and them an uniformity according to the word of God And indeed the Assembly consisting of so many able learned and grave Divines where much of the wisdome piety and learning of two Kingdomes are met cannot well be thought to be carried away from the word by the streame of publike interest especially most of the Assembly being men not engaged by education or otherwise to any other of the reformed Churches or by former declarations of their judgements nor appointed by the Parliament to Presbyteriall government but left freely to be guided by the light of the word in this way of God communicated to them besides that the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland however they be present in the Assembly to heare debates and to give their Reasons yet never gave their voices in any point that hath passed the Assembly As for the close of this Section trusting God both with your selves and his own truth as he shall be pleased to manage it by us Had you in adventuring your selves upon this Assembly and therein really beleeving all the sorts of disadvantages as you here speake trusted God both with your selvs and that you call his own truth some of you would never have brought such arguments for your way as you have done And certainely if some of you did trust God as you ought with your selves c. you would not trust so much to your wits and policie nor be so full of reservations fetches doubtfull expressions as you are And brethren let me deale with you plainely I hope it may doe you good many speake of your policie and subtiltie some who are strangers to you yet being members of the Assembly and beholding your managing of your opinions and way there wonder that good men should be so politick and subtill as you are especially if the cause were good Moreover if in all matters of Doctrine we were not as orthodox in our judgements as our bretheren themselves we would never have exposed our selves to this triall and hazard of discovery in this Assembly the mixture of whose spirits the quick-sightednesse of whose judgements intent enough upon us and variety of debates about all sorts of controversies afoot in these times of contradiction are such as would be sure soone to find us out if we nourished any monsters or serpents of opinions lurking in our bosomes And if we had carried it so as that hitherto such errours were not afore-hand open to the view and judgement of all yet sitting here unlesse we would be silent which we have not been we could not long be hid But it is sufficiently known that in all points of doctrine which hitherto in the review and examination of the Articles of our Church or upon other occasions have been gone through our judgements have still concurred with the greatest part of our bretheren neither doe we know wherein we have dissented And in matters of discipline we are so farre from holding up the differences that occurre or making the breaches greater or wider that we endeavour upon all such occasions to grant and yeeld as all may see and cannot but testifie for us to the utmost latitude of our light and consciences professing it to be as high a point of Religion and conscience readily to own yea fall down before whatsoever is truth in the hands of those that differ yea though they should be enemies unto us as much as earnestly to contend for and hold fast those truths wherein we should be found dissenting from them and this is in relation to peace so also as a just due to truth and goodnesse even to approve it and acknowledge it to the uttermost graine of it though mingled with what is opposite unto us And further when matters by discussion are brought to the smallest dissent that may be we have hitherto been found to be no backward urgers unto a temper not only in things that have concerned our own consciences but when of others also such as may suite and tend to union as well as searching out of truth judging this to be as great and usefull an end of Synods and Assemblies as a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding determinations of truth one way Whether in all matters of Doctrine all of you be as Orthodox in your Judgements as your brethren themselves I question it though in the most Doctrines and in the maine I grant it I have been told of some odd things in matter of Doctrine preached by one of you five both in England and Holland and of some points preached in the Church of Arnheim never questioned there and since printed not very Orthodox as for instance amongst others that the soules of the Saints