well make an end of answering to this treatise because I haue ouerthrowne the maine strength of your discourse and discouered to all men that will not be wilfully blind the weaknesse of your reason but for the better satisfaction of the vnlearned I will follow you from Chapter to Chapter that the truth may the more easily be discerned A. D. CHAP. XI That the Church whose doctrine must be to vs the rule of faith must alwayes continue without interruption from Christ his time till the worlds end A. W. That there alwayes hath bene since the beginning of the world excepting perhaps the time betwixt the fall of our first parents and their faith in the Messiah that there is and alwaies shal be a Church viz. certaine men that are predestinate to life and actually beleeue in Iesus Christ it neuer came into any of our minds to be doubted of that there should be such a companie as you conceipt all the Papists in the world cannot proue A. D. §. 1. Considering what hath bene proued in the former Chapter about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope no Christian will deny but that so long as this Church doth continue we haue of it a sure pillar and a firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleef For either a man must deny that euer our Sauiour did make any such promise gaue such charge and commission left any such warrant set forth such a commaundement or thundred out any such threats as before is rehearsed which were to denie the Scriptures which scriptures are generally receiued by all Christians no otherwise then as they are the vndoubted word of God or else he must wrest the interpretation thereof both from that which the words of themselues naturally yeeld and also from the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world or else he shall be forced to confesse that which not I but Saint Paul hath said Ecclesia est columna firmamentum veritatis the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Onely it may perchance seeme to some of those that doe at this day oppose themselues against the authority of the Church that this was true for Saint Pauls time and perhaps for some three foure fiue or six hundred yeares after but not to be presumed vpon in latter times and namely when Luther began his reformation as they tearme it or now adaies A. W. Considering how weake your proofes haue bene as in the former Chapters so namely in the last about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope there is no reasonable man not only no Christian that will build his faith and saluation vpon so tottering a pillar and so slipperie a foundation But because you seeme to dote so much vpon your last Chapter I wil once againe be content to examine the substance of it as it is here repeated by you with some litle alteration Either we must denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted threatned or we must falsely interprete the scriptures or else we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our faith But we neither may denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commaunded threatned neither may we falsely interpret the Scriptures Therefore we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleefe First in general for your whole syllogisme if the cōclusion you intend were no other thē that you pretēd propoūd that the Church is the pillar groūd of truth as S. Paul saith there would be no question in this matter betwixt vs. For we haue learned to acknowledge the truth of all and euerie part of the scripture But the beginning of this Chapter sheweth that you meane by the Churches being the pillar and ground of truth that we may safely build our beleefe vpon the Churches authority which as I prooued in my answer to that Chapter is no part of the Apostles meaning In this sense must we take your conclusion Secondly in particular I denie your Maior because your disiunction is naught presuming a necessitie where there is none For neither we need to denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commanded threatned neither is there any cause why we should falsely interprete the Scriptures and yet we haue no reason to grant that our faith may safely be built vpon the authoritie of the Church No such thing as I haue shewed can follow vpon the words of scripture alledged by you Therefore we need not denie the promises charge warrant commandement or threatning of our Sauiour or else grant the Church such an vnlimited authority Neither will the true sense of those Scriptures either enforce or beare any such illation or conclusion touching the infallible authoritie of the Church And whereas you thinke to face out the matter with naming the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world my answer propounding the iudgement of many excellently learned and ancient writers of those places prooueth that to be but a vaine popish brag without all likelihood of truth especially since you that spare not to heape vp testimonies of Fathers when they are needlesse and to quote their bookes and chapters sometimes for a bare phrase alledge not so much as the name of any one author for the proofe of your interpretation of twelue seuerall places of scripture Your proffered seruice in helping vs with this distinction hath more shew of kindnesse then good meaning For it is not brought in to confirme our answer but to giue your selfe occasion of vttering that which you are taught to vrge for proofe of this question But we neither need your aide and haue good cause to suspect your fauours In a word your distinction is such as none of vs euer brought or would bring to answer those places of scripture We confesse that whatsoeuer was promised to the Church in those texts was promised for continuance to the end of the world but we say that the first promise was not concerning the Churches not erring the three last are particular to the Apostles at least for such a measure of teaching But what should I repeat that which was deliuered in the verie last Chapter The thing you harpe vpon though vntunably is that your Romish church or rather the Church of the East West were indeed the pillar and ground of truth for the space of some 600. yeares after Christ but afterwards fell away from that soundnesse of doctrine which before it had cleaued vnto Such a matter there is acknowledged by our Diuines yet no man saith either that the Church erred not in any point during that
Let vs therefore proceede in examining this discourse A. D. §. 1. Hitherto I haue shewed that the rule of faith which all men ought to seeke that by it they may learne true faith is the doctrine of the Church of Christ and that this Church doth continue and is alwayes visible that is to say such as may be found out and knowne Now the greatest question is sith there are diuers companies of them that beleeue in Christ euery one of which challenge to themselues the title of the true Church how euery man may come to know assuredly and in particular which companie is indeed the true visible Church of Christ whose doctrine we must in all points beleeue and follow To this question I answer that euery companie which hath the name of Christians or which challenge to themselues the name of the Church are not alwayes the true Church For of heretickes we may well say as S. Austin doth Non quia Ecclesiae Christi videntur habere nomen idcirco pertinent ad eius consecrationem They doe not therefore pertaine to the consecration of the Church of Christ because they seeme to carry the name of the Church of Christ. For as the same S. Austin saith in another place heretickes are onely whited ouer with the name of Christians when indeed Si haeretici sunt as Tertullian sayth Christiani esse non possunt If they be heretickes the cannot be true Christians The reason whereof the same Tertullian insinuateth to be because they follow not that faith which came from Christ to his Apostles and Disciples and which was deliuered by them from hand to hand to our forefathers and so to vs but they follow that faith which they chose to themselues of which election or choise the name of hereticke and heresie did arise A. W. Hitherto you haue laboured to proue the maior of your maine syllogisme propounded in your preface namely that the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholick Church commends vnto vs is to be held for the true faith What successe you haue had in this proofe let them say that haue compared your arguments and my answers together Now you are to proceed to the proofe of your maine assumption that they onely are the true Church which make profession of the Romane faith Your syllogisme is thus framed They onely are the true Church to whom the certaine marks by which the Church is to be knowne belong But they that professe the Romane faith are they to whom those markes belong Therefore they onely that professe the Romane faith are the true Church The proposition or maior of this Syllogisme is not exprest by you but necessarily implied in this thirteenth Chapter where you say that the way to discerne which is the true Church is first to set downe which be the certain marks whereby all men may easily know the Church The assumption or minor you endeuour to proue in the fiue Chapters following by a Syllogisme thus concluded They onely who are one holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong But they that professe the Romane religion are they who are one holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church Therefore they onely that professe the Romane faith are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong Your proposition or maior is in the two next Chapters your assumption or minor in the sixteenth In handling the proposition first you labour to disproue the markes of a true church which we assigne and that in Chapt. 14. then you assay to propound and confirme other of your owne as we shall see hereafter if God will when we come to Chap. 15. Whereas you expound what you meane by a visible Church viz. such a one as may be found out and knowne you straighten the question and auow that which no man denieth For the question betwixt vs is not whether the Church may be found out or no but whether it be so visible and famous a congregation that it may at all times be knowne of all men If this be not that you should proue what will become of your grand reason that therefore there must alwayes be a knowne Church the doctrine whereof euery must rest vpon in all matters of faith because otherwise it cannot be vniuersally true that God will haue all men to be saued It is indeed a matter worth the enquiring which companies of them that professe Christian Religion are the true Churches of Christ For that all are not it is apparent by your Antichristian Synagogue and that all true Christians are bound as much as lieth in them to become members of some true church of Christ it is manifest because else they cannot ordinarily performe the duties of his true outward worship which are no where done but in his true churches If the choise of any doctrine not receiued from Christ be sufficient to make men heretickes and churches hereticall what may the world thinke of your synagogue which is not ashamed openly to professe that she holdeth many points of doctrine which haue not proofe out of the written word of God For whereas to shift off the matter you come in with deliuerie of I know not what from hand to hand by the Apostles and your forefathers who sees not that this conceit of yours both condemneth the Scriptures of insufficiencie and maketh the reports of men the rule of the true faith and openeth a wide gate to let in all deuices of mans corruption What auailes it to know that all doctrine is heresie which comes not from our Sauiour Christ if we must beleeue that all came from him which your Pope and his Councell tell vs they haue receiued by tradition why should we not rather hearken to your Occham who truly affirmed that heresy is an opinion chosen by a man contrary to the holy Scripture Surely there is great cause to suspect them of heresie who refuse to make triall of their doctrine by Scripture whatsoeuer they talke of tradition from the Apostles by their forefathers A. D. §. 2. The way therefore to discerne which is the true Church is irst to set downe which be the certaine markes by which all men may easily know the Church and then to examine to whom these markes doe agree The which that I may the better performe in the Chapter following here I thinke good first briefly to note what belongeth to the nature of a good and sufficient marke Note therefore that two things are required in euery sufficient marke The first is that it be not common to many but proper and onely agreeing to the thing whereof it is a marke As for example it is no good marke whereby to know any particular man to say he hath two hands or two eares because this is common to many and therefore no sufficient note or marke whereby one may be distinguished or knowne from all other But a marke whereby we may discerne
so many Bishops of their faction Vincentius acknowledgeth a succession continued though secretly from Simon Magus to Priscilian Let vs see ' now whether you bring any better reason for your selues then you haue done against vs They are euen much about one That Church which can shew a line all succession of her Bishops without interruption from the Apostle Peter to Cloment now liuing is Apostolicke But the Church of Rome can shew such a succession without interruption Therefore the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Tertullian thought it sufficient to proue the hereticks not to be Apostolicke that their doctrine agreed not with the Apostles And Ambrose truly affirmed that they haue not the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter He saith Nazianzen that professeth the same doctrine of faith is partaker of the same throne But he that embraceth contrary doctrine must be thought an aduersary euen in the throne He may haue the name but the other hath the truth of succession Therefore Irenaeus saith plainly that those Bishops onely are to be obeyed who together with succession haue the truth But of this I spake before Chap. 15. Where there is no beginning what continuance or successiō can there be Is not the question whether Peter were euer at Rome or no full of doubt Are you able in any sort to resolue it by Scripture vnlesse perhaps we may say that he neuer came there because it is no where plainly set downe nor probably to be gathered from thēce that euer Saint Peter was at Rome But it is more vnlikely that euer he was Bishop of Rome I might go forward to aske you who was his successor Linus or Clement which is a point not agreed vpon by auncient writers Since that time you haue had 32. schismes in your Church sometimes two sometimes three Popes at once that your succession cannot be so cleare as you would make it To proue your minor you tell vs that the auncient Fathers did much esteeme succession from the Apostles and vsed it as an argument to confound the hereticks and to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholicke Church Who denieth that succession is to be esteemed and that it hath some force to confute and confirme But what succession is it that is of such price force Personall succession alone without truth VVe heard ere while what Tertullian Irenaeus Nazianzen and Ambrose say concerning succession that without truth it deserueth no credit Yea some of your owne writers confesse that an argument from succession doth not hold affirmatiuely as if there were a true Church wheresoeuer there is succession VVherby doth Irenaeus confound heresies by shewing a personall succession of Bishops from the Apostles VVhat could that helpe the matter vnlesse he be also able to proue that the doctrine he maintaines hath come successiuely from the Apostles by them He speaks plaine enough We confound all errors by the doctrine of the Apostles and the faith preached to men by thē Let not the word tradition trouble any man Irenaeus for that expounds himselfe where he saith that the Apostles first preached the Gospell and afterward by the will of God deliuered it to vs in the Scriptures to be the pillar and foundation of our faith The continuance of this doctrine by succession is vsed by Irenaeus as a motiue to perswade men to the liking of that truth which had receiued so good acceptation and was warranted by so good authority as the teaching of the Apostles themselues In a word Irenaeus saith that heresies might then be refuted by shewing that they who had bene ordained Bb. by the Apostles and their successors continued in the doctrine receiued without any approbation of such hereticall fancies Austin you say was held in the Church as himselfe professeth by the succession of Priests from the verie seat of Peter And why should he not be held by that rather thē leaue the Church for the dreames of the Manichees VVe say as Austin did that such a succession is a better proof of the Church then their bare promise of truth especially since as the same Austin sheweth otherwhere they wold haue their word to be takē as you now would haue yours for sufficient proofe But Austin in the verie same place you alledge addeth withall that if they could shew that the truth was on their side he would preferre it before succession and whatsoeuer other reason that made him continue a member of the Church In this sense did those other ancient writers esteeme and vrge succession whose names you muster to small purpose but onely for shew of authoritie Concerning that speech of Athanasius be not so iniurious either to him or your selues as to presse his testimony to so leud a purpose Would you haue men thinke that he which refuted and confounded Arius and his complices by so many and so worthy proofes out of the holy Scriptures would condemne not onely other men but himselfe also for deriuing his faith in that point from the Scriptures But though you care not what become of all the Fathers so your Popery may flourish yet like a reasonable man consider what a terrible blow you giue your owne cause Is there no other marke of the Church but succession Then by Bellarmines iudgement there is none at all who allowes it not as a certaine light to shew vs the Church But what wants it of blasphemy to pronounce men to be hereticks for making the Scriptures the foundation of their faith to which purpose Irenaeus saith that they were left And I pray you answer me directly why it should not be as lawful for me to groūd my faith vpon the beginning of this succession in the Apostles as vpon the continuance of it in other men Yet might Athanasius well say concerning that point of our Sauiour Christs Godhead that he was to be counted an hereticke that should deriue the beginning of his faith from any other ground then the whole succession wherein the Apostles were comprehended and whose doctrine the Churches of Christ till that time in that matter had followed But how will you proue out of this place of Athanasius that this should be a mark to discerne hereticks by alwaies It was then an excellent and admirable argument in that point not of it owne nature but because the truth had successiuely bene held till those times How will you answer Bellarmine who affirmes confidently and truly that truth goes not alwaies with succession For if it did why should not succession be a certaine mark of a true Church But Bellarmine saith it is not You tell vs that otherwise the ordinance of Pastors made by our Sauiour Christ shall be frustrate of the effect intended by him What vnlesse there be truth wheresoeuer there is succession Then can it not come to passe that any Pastor hauing lawfull ordination can erre For if one
their exceeding great harme And at least how soeuer their priuate affection selfe-loue encline them to think well of themselues and of that spirit which they permit to teach them those singuler points of new strange doctrine yet sure it is that this their perswasion of the goodnesse of their spirit is not infallible as the rule of faith must be sith diuers now adaies perswade themselues in the same manner to be taught by the holy spirit and yet one of them teaching against another it is not possible that all that thus perswade themselues should be taught by this spirit sith this spirit doth neuer teach contrarie to it selfe And therefore some in this their perswasion must needs be deceiued And therefore who hauing no testimonie of euident miracle or some other vndoubted proofe dare arrogantly affirme that he onely is not deceiued especially in such sort as to condemne all other and to propose himselfe to himselfe and others as the onely sufficient rule of faith considering that others who presume perswade themselues altogether in like manner are in this their perswasion deceiued A. W. I must againe put the Reader in minde that no Protestant maintaines that a priuate spirit is the rule of faith neither will I vndertake the defence of any such matter but onely examine his reasons against it as I haue done in the former chapters in the like case His reason is thus to be concluded The rule of faith must be infallible plaine knowne to all sorts of men and vniuersall A priuate spirit is not such Therefore a priuate spirit is not the rule of faith Of the proposition I spake at the sixth chapter and shewed the fault of it in respect of the second propertie which is easinesse to be vnderstood of all men as it is expounded by your selfe All the doubt now is in the assumption of the three points wherin you go about to prooue but only the first of infallibility It should seeme your stomacke is greater against the scripture then against either natural wit learning or priuate spirit For you disprooue the abilitie of these two but in respect of one property namely the first as if for the other two they or either of them were sufficient enough But you allow the Scripture neuer a one of the three you condemne it of obscuritie you accuse it of defect for wanting diuers points necessarie to saluation And although you do not simply denie the infallibilitie of it yet you make all knowledge that can be had out of our English translation verie vncertaine so that none of our people can haue any benefite by the scripture as by the rule of faith or word of God but onely some few that vnderstand Hebrew or Greeke But I perceiue you were more afraid that the scripture would be taken for the rule of faith then you were that either of the other would Let vs see how you proue your assumption since you wil needs put your selfe to more paines then was looked for He say you that cannot assure himselfe and other men that he is taught by the holy Ghost cannot be the rule of faith But a priuate spirit cannot assure himselfe and other men that he is so taught Therefore a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith There is some cause to doubt of your maior For it is not necessarie that the rule of faith should know it selfe to be the rule The Pope you thinke is the rule of faith Put case that some Pope should doubt whether himselfe were infallibly directed in all his determinations by the holy Ghost or no should he by reason of this doubting cease to be the rule of faith I dare say you thinke not so Neuer vrge me with the impossibilitie of this matter For both it is possible if he that is no Christian may be Pope of Rome If Iohn the 22 doubted of the immortalitie of the soule if Leo 10. counted the history of our Sauiour Christ a fable and it is all one to my answer whether it may be or no it is enough for me if the Pope may be the rule though he should so doubt You should haue done well if you had kept your former warie course of adding some exception to your assumption It had not bene altogether without need For out of question a priuate spirit may be so assured by reuelation as the Prophets and Apostles were And by such meanes a man may come to assurance for all the subtiltie of Sathan the Lord being able to make the motions of his spirit knowen to whom he please what shift soeuer Sathan vse to the contrarie The Minor therefore without this exception be either expressed or vnderstood is vntrue otherwise it is true As for the triall you propound by the touchstone of the true pastors of the Catholicke Church it is vtterly insufficient in this case It may be and is indeed a meanes of great authoritie and vse to direct a man in finding out and holding the truth but it is no certaine proofe that a man hath found or doth hold the truth in all points because those pastors as in due place shall appeare may all be deceiued without the Popes especiall direction But admit their iudgement or authoritie were in the matter infallible yet could no man thereby be assured that himselfe is taught particularly by the holy Ghost For many men hold the truth of God as the true Church doth and yet haue no such teaching by the spirit since it is certaine a man may deliuer truth and he himselfe not beleeue Of your testimonies out of scripture touching the Pastors of the Church I will say onely thus much by the way that the Pastors can speake neither of those sentences truely of themselues but in a measure They know the deuises of Sathan but in part not wholy He that knoweth God heareth them not simply in all points for he that knoweth God may doubt of some point deliuered by the true Pastors of the Church who also are no farther to be heard then they can shew that they speake to be from God The Apostles euerie one of them seuerally knew all things which the Lord thought fit to make knowen to men and were to be heard without any doubting of that they deliuered with them that priuiledge died and all men now are tied to the triall of their doctrine by the scriptures The conclusion of this discourse concerneth either no man in the world or if any the Pope of Rome your Lord God For the Anabaptists themselues are not so absurd and shamelesse as to make any one of their sect the onely sufficient rule of all mens faith but euerie man claimeth though falsly and lewdly a priuiledge of not erring for himselfe Onely your insolent Pope will haue all men to depend vpon his iudgement and in comparison of himselfe disdaineth all writers and all Councils whatsoeuer What promises he hath
whereupon he beareth himselfe so high and stout I make no doubt but we shal heare of you in this Treatise till when I forbeare to say anie more A. D. §. 4. But suppose one could assure himselfe that he were taught by Gods Spirit immediately what is the true faith in all points in such sort that he could erre in none as it is not the manner of Almightie God to teach men immediately by himselfe alone or by an Angell but rather as the Scripture telleth vs Fides ex auditu Faith is bred in vs by hearing and is to be required ex ore Sacerdotis out of the mouth of the Priest and is to be learned of Pastors and Doctors whom God hath appointed in his Church of purpose to instruct vs and continue vs in the ancient faith But suppose I say that one could assuredly perswade himselfe to be immediatly taught of God what is the truth in all points how should he without testimonie of miracle giue assurance to others that he is thus taught Especially when he teacheth quite contrarie to the Catholicke Church which by plaine promises and testimonies of Scripture we know to be taught of God A. W Hitherto you haue prooued that a man cannot assure himselfe that he is infallibly instructed by the holy Ghost Now you are to shew that howsoeuer the point might be cleere to him yet he hath no meanes to perswade other men thereof but that still there will be cause of doubting whether he be so taught or no. But by the way you tell vs that it is not Gods manner to teach vs immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angel but rather as the scripture telleth vs faith is bred in vs by hearing For the generall that God teacheth not immediately we are wholy of your opinion and that the ordinarie meanes of faith is preaching but we see no sufficient reason to disable the word of God in the scripture as if it were not of force to bring forth the same effect where Gods ordinance of preaching cannot be had or is not neglected For since the matter deliuered in true preaching and reading the scripture is all one vnlesse it be verie apparent that the holy Ghost wil not giue a blessing to him that readeth hauing not opportunitie to heare out of question faith may come by reading Faith saith Bellarmine cannot arise in the heart but by diuine reuelation which is either immediately from God alone or by the instrument of the word preached or read And whereas the Apostle speaketh in that place of preaching and hearing it is not his purpose to disable the word read but to shew partly as otherwhere that the meanes of saluation were not nor could be deuised by man but proceed wholy from God partly that no man may excuse himselfe by ignorance because God hath sent his seruants into all parts of the world to giue notice of the way of saluation without which commaundement of his no man might haue vndertaken the office of preaching the Gospell either by word of mouth or writing and without the Gospell had bene published no man could haue beleeued For as it is in the same chapter a little before How shall they beleeue in him of whom they haue not heard and how shall they heare without a preacher And how shall they preach except they be sent Faith then is by hearing that is as one rightly expoundeth it by the sense of the scripture truly vnderstood I do not equall reading to preaching nor promise any blessing but rather threaten a curse where men refuse to heare the Pastors and Ministers of the seuerall congregations wherein they liue or any other that by lawfull authoritie preach truly and faithfully but I would haue no man by any conceit weaken the power of God speaking in his word to all that can and will reade and heare Now to your argument He that hath not testimonie of miracles cannot giue assurance to others that he is infallibly taught by the Spirit of God But a priuate spirit hath not testimonie of miracles Therefore he cannot giue assurance to others that he is infallibly so taught First I note two things in the propounding of this reason the one that you adde an exception according to your custome the other that you seeme to giue ouer great force to miracles Your exception is that he can giue no assurance if he teach contrarie to the Catholicke Church why so Because we know that she is taught of God Suppose that to be true yet may he giue assurance to them that know no such thing of the Church and so be to them the rule of faith But it is worth the marking that you preferre miracles before the authoritie of the Church For by them a man in your opinion may haue assurance to others that he is taught by the holy Ghost though he teach quite contrarie to the Catholicke Church But the Apostle hath accursed them that receiue any other doctrine then he taught though it be preached by an Angell from heauen What will become of the faith of such men when Antichrist comes with signes and lying wonders But why should I aske that question Your selfe and the rest of your popish brood haue answered it alreadie For you are made drunke with the cup of fornication of the whore of Babylon and bewitched with the miracles of that great Antichrist the Pope of Rome to beleeue lies against the manifest truth of God in scripture But we haue a most sure word of the Prophets confirmed expounded by the Apostles contrarie to which or without warrant of which we will beleeue nothing as necessarie to saluation for all the miracles that your Antichrist or the Diuel himselfe can worke For mine owne part vnder correction I speake it I am not perswaded that euer any true miracle was or shall be wrought for confirmation of false doctrine how soeuer the Diuel may serue his turne by a shew of such matters But it is all one to the moouing of a man whether the thing done be in truth a miracle or onely such in his opinion Be it neuer so true it may bring no credit to any point of doctrine contrarie to the word of God in the scripture Yet since false shewes will worke the same effect in their hearts whom God hath giuen ouer to the beleeuing of lies that true miracles will me thinkes I see no sufficient cause to imagine that God will employ his infinite power to the countenācing of any vntruth where no such thing is needfull I say then for your proposition that no assurance can be giuen either without or with neuer so many miracles if a mans doctrine be contrarie to the teaching of the Church when the Church teacheth according to the Scripture But in those points wherein the Church shall faile of her dutie the exposition of the word may giue assurance of truth spoken by
beleeue a simple husbandman a child or an old woman rather then the Pope and a thousand Bb. if these speake against the Gospell and the other with it Then belike a priuate man may see some truth which is not generally discerned The place of Austin you bring doth not condemne all interpretations or opinions which some one man findeth out and holdeth but onely reproueth them who in expounding the places of Scripture which wil beare a diuers sense vrge one onely not because it is truth but because they like it best His example is out of Genesis concerning the sense of those words In the beginning God created heauen and earth They know not which of those diuers senses that may be Moses did intend saith Austin but they loue their owne opinion not because it is true but because it is their owne What doth this concerne vs who as we giue euery man of iudgement leaue to propound his interpretation to be examined so permit no man to thrust any exposition vpon the Church which he cannot make euident proofe of by sound reason Neither is it then taken as his priuate conceit but acknowledged as the truth of God manifested by his industrie In doubtfull places we follow the likeliest sense without any resolute determining what is true what false therefore cannot with any shew of reason be charged to appropriate the knowledge of Gods truth to our selues where it hath pleased his Maiestie so to propound it that of diuers senses a man cannot certainly affirme that this or that is true A. D. CHAP. X. That the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule of faith A. W. If you had mentioned nothing but the doctrine of the true Church we might haue vnderstood you without any cause of doubting but now you ad teaching to doctrine we are enforced to enquire farther into your meaning For we are vncertaine whether by those words you meane one and the same thing or no. The doctrine of the Church is that which the Church propoundeth to be beleeued whether by word of mouth or in writing Teaching if we make it differ from doctrine is that onely which is deliuered by voice to the eare If we vnderstand you in the former sense for teaching by writing as well as by word of mouth the latter word was needlesse if in the latter of writing onely then the same doctrine written is not the rule of faith which vttered by a teacher will become such a rule not because it is true but because it is taught by authoritie A. D. §. 1. The fourth conclusion is that this infallible rule which euery one ought to follow in all points of faith is the doctrine and teaching of the true Church or companie of the true faithfull of Christ A. W. That we may the better vnderstand what you say and how you proue your saying there are a few things to be considered in this fourth condition First by the faithfull of Christ you must meane those that professe Christian Religion whether they beleeue as they professe or no as I haue shewed out of Bellarmine who doubtlesse knoweth what the Church is as well as you If you be of any other opinion by your owne rule we may reiect it for the priuatnesse thereof Secondly where you say the true faithfull it is not your purpose to speake as we for whom you writ this commonly doe of them that haue a true iustifying faith but of them that professe the doctrine of the Gospell according to the true sense and meaning of it whether they haue any iustifying faith or no. Thirdly by this companie or Church whom vnderstand you If the whole number of the beleeuers as well Laitie as Cleargie I oppose the iudgement of your owne Doctours against you who speaking of the Churches doctrine and teaching restraine the word onely to the Pope and Bishops The spirit saith Bellarmine is certainly found in the Church that is in a Councell of Bishops confirmed by the chiefe Pastor of the whole Church or in the chiefe Pastor with a Councell of the other Pastors If you follow Bellarmine I demaund whether your Laity be none of the true faithfull of Christ nor parts of the Church But to leaue this doubt wee are thus to conceiue your meaning that the doctrine which the Pope and other Pastors of the Church namely Bb. deliuer in a Councell is the rule of faith Now let vs propound your reason and examine it but first I confesse that I dare not resolutely determine whether it be brought in by you for a proofe of any thing that hitherto hath bene spoken or intended onely as a discourse concerning the authoritie of the Church If we apply it to any matter alreadie past as farre as I am able to conceiue it must be a second proofe of the proposition or maior of your maine Syllogisme in this manner If the doctrine and teaching of the true Church be the infallible rule which all men ought to follow then the faith which the authority of the true Church commends to vs is to be holden for the true faith But the doctrine and teaching of the true church is the infallible rule that all men ought to follow Therfore the faith which the authoritie of the true Church commendeth to vs is to be holden for the true faith This reasonable coherence we may make betwixt this Chapter and your former course without changing or weakning any part or point of your proofe which is applied to the confirming of this last minor the argument of this Chapter A. D. §. 2. This I proue by this reason If our Sauiour Christ hath promised to any company of men the presence of himselfe and the assistance of his holy spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth giuing withall peculiar charge and commission to them to teach all nations and to preach to euery creature giuing also warrant to all that they may safely heare them giuing also commandement whereby he bindeth all to do in all things according to their saying and threatning greatly those who will not heare and beleeue them then certainly the doctrine and teaching of these men is in all points most true and infallible and such as if the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not as they are not wanting may well be proposed to all sorts as an assured ground whereupon they may safely build an infallible Christian faith For looke what our Sauiour Christ hath promised must needs be performed and whatsoeuer he warranteth or commandeth may safely and without danger of error be done nay must of necessitie be done especially when he threatneth those that will not do it and consequently if he haue promised to send his holy Spirit to teach any companie of men all truth it is not to be doubted but that he sendeth this his holy Spirit and by it teacheth them all truth and fith the teaching of his
that in time of persecution many true Christians may be without opportunitie of meeting together for the true worship of God in hearing his word and calling vpon his name which alwaies accompanieth true preaching and yet still continue true members of Christs mysticall bodie the Church But we say that these men cannot be truly called such a visible Church of Christ as we now seeke for Yet if these men shall ordinarily assemble themselues together to offer vp praier to God and by mutuall conference to edifie each other in knowledge and obedience thogh they haue no certaine minister appointed for the performance of these duties there can no reason be alledgd why they should not be held for a true Church though not perfect complete or why men should not ioine with them hauing no means to become members of any complete congregation properly being a Church The word then in our opinion is simply necessarie and of it selfe sufficient as Luther truly saith where no other signe of a Church can be discerned to conuince a mans conscience that there is a true Church where he findeth the word truly preached Now the administration of the Sacraments is not so necessarie but that there may be a true Church without it vpon occasion as the Iewes had no circumcision amongst them all the fortie yeares when they trauelled through the wildernesse The reason of this difference is assigned to be this that the word is as it were the cause efficient of the Church so that without it there can be no Church but the Sacraments are only seals of Gods mercies and helps for the increasing of those graces which are receiued by the ministerie of the word Now these seales and helpes are not requisite simply to the being of that they seale helpe vs in but onely to the better being and increase of them But if I may be bold with reuerence of other mens iudgement to speake my poore opinion I think this reason sheweth the different necessitie of the word and the Sacraments rather to the making of particular men true Christians thē to the giuing of this or that companie the true being of a visible Church And therefore vnder correction I would rather say that the truth of doctrine deliuered in the ministery of the word and praier are absolutely necessary the administration of the Sacraments not so altogether because the former are such parts of Gods seruice as may and must alwaies be performed when the Church is assembled but the Sacraments neither can alwaies nor need at all such meetings to be administred Which we speake not as if the true vse of the Sacraments were not a necessarie part of Gods seruice to be done vpon all opportunities with reuerence and willingnesse but for that as before I noted there cannot be at all times such opportunitie Yea it may fall out that in some true Church of Christ there shall be no occasion to administer the Sacrament of Baptisme in many yeares This then is that which we hold concerning the markes of a true Church First that wheresoeuer we see the word of God truly taught and the Sacraments truly administred there we may be sure there is a true Church of Christ Secondly that wheresoeuer the former of these is wanting there is no true Church whatsoeuer shew or marke otherwise there be Thirdly that wheresoeuer the word of God is truly preached and accordingly professed there is a true Church though the Sacraments vpon occasion as is aforesaid be not there administred so that they be not neglected vpon any contempt or erroneous conceit of their not being necessarie To disprooue our doctrine concerning the markes of the or rather of a Church you bring this reason If true doctrine be a marke of a true Church then either true doctrine in some pointes or true doctrine in all But neither true doctrine in some points nor true doctrine in all is a marke Therefore true Doctrine is not at all a marke of a true Church I denie you Minor True doctrine in all points is so certaine a marke of a true Church that wheresoeuer we finde that we may be sure there is a true Church But because we enquire after such a marke as may not onely assure vs which is a true Church but also teach vs to know euerie true Church I answer more particularly that true doctrine in some pointes viz. such as are fundamentall is so necessarie a marke as that there is no where any true Church but where there is such true doctrine and that there is vndoubtedly a true Church wheresoeuer that truth is taught and held Your Minor you prooue thus first that true doctrine in some points is no good marke That which is not proper to the true Church but agrees rather to heretickes is no good marke of the true Church But true doctrine in some points onely is not proper to the true Church but agreeth rather to heretickes Therefore true doctrine in some points onely is no good marke of the true Church Againe I denie your minor taking it in the best sense for if I should take it in the worst your whole syllogisme would be nothing to the purpose My answer shall I trust make both these points plaine to euery man I say then that true doctrine in all the fundamentall points of religion is proper to the Church so that no hereticks hold all such points though some haue held many of them Or if any companie do hold them all and yet for some error in other points of lesse moment be counted and be hereticall their heresie is not such as may make them cease to be members of a true Church Thus much of your assumption in the best sense By true doctrine in some points onely you may meane that it is not a propertie belonging to the true Church to beleeue truly some points onely and not all and this indeed is rather proper to heretickes then the true Church because it is the dutie of all true Churches to beleeue all things that the Lord hath taught in the holy Scriptures whereas hereticks take vp conceits of their owne which they mingle with the truth of God either ignorantly or deceitfully I haue reason to suspect this meaning because you thrust in this word onely In this sense your conclusion fighteth with a shadow For we do not make it a marke of a true Church to beleeue some points onely but say it may be and is a true Church though it erre in some points so it hold the fundamentall points soundly and truly This is the proofe of the second part of your minor that true doctrine in all points is not a good marke of the true Church and it is thus concluded Euery good marke of the true Church is apparent or easie to be knowne of all those who should seeke out the true Church But true doctrine in all points is not apparent or easie to be known of
not perceiue those things which are of the Spirit of God For sith none by the onely power of naturall wit which in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries which we beleeue by our faith neither doth the Spirit of God who as the principall cause infuseth this gift of faith into our soules ordinarily instruct any man in the knowledge of true faith immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angell sent from heauen we must needs if we will haue true faith seeke first for that which it pleaseth Almightie God to vse as the ordinarie instrument and as a necessary meanes by which men may learne true faith the which is no other but the preaching and teaching of the true church according to that saying of S. Paul Quomodo credent ei quem non audierint quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur How shall they beleeue him whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Therefore the true Church which only hath preachers truly sent of God must first be found out that by it we may heare and know which is the true faith Therefore of the two the true Church is rather a mark whereby we may know the true preaching and consequently the true doctrine of faith then contrarie that as heretickes say the doctrine should be a marke whereby all men must know which is the true Church A. W. Belike as you had good cause you suspected your abilitie to proue simply that the true preaching of the word in all matters fundamentall and the right administration of the sacraments are not a good marke of a true Church And therefore you rather chose to proue by way of comparison that the true church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by For so runs your conclusion directly If the end of seeking the true Church say you be principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine then the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by But the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points which otherwise wee cannot attaine to Therefore the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the Church by Though the conclusion as I said be not directly to the question which is not comparatiue but simple whether true doctrine be a good mark to discerne a true Church by or no yet I will take it as it is and answer to the parts of it Your maior in the antecedent may haue a double meaning First that we cannot in any point learne true doctrine but by the Church and then I denie the consequence For true doctrine in the fundamentall points of Religion may be a good marke of the true Church though we seeke the true Church because there are many points which we cannot learne without it But howsoeuer you vnderstand the maior the minor is euidently false First because the principall end of seeking the true Church is that we may truly worship God in the assembly of his children to his greater glorie and our farther assurance of his loue to vs as we may see euery where in the booke of the Psalmes Secondly because we are not to learne of the true Church as a necessarie and infallible meanes but of the ministers thereof who are appointed by God to giue vs knowledge of the meanes of saluation by expounding the word of God to vs not to binde vs to beleefe by their authoritie Your minor you offer to proue in this maner If no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries and faith be not to be had but by the teaching of the true Church then the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may learne by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine But no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries nor faith be had but by the teaching of the true Church Therefore the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessary and infallible meanes learne the true faith in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine The consequence of your maior is naught It doth not follow that we seeke the true Church to learne of it as a necessary and infallible meanes because we cannot know the mysteries of Religion without faith which commeth by the teaching of the true Church For there may well be teaching and learning without any such authoritie in the Church that teacheth Your minor is very doubtfull as I will shew in answering seuerally to the parts of it First then whereas you say that no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries if you meane that a man cannot acknowledge the truth of such mysteries without faith your minor in that part is true but if your meaning be that a man cannot vnderstand what the meanes of saluation appointed by God are without faith I take your minor to be false For though those meanes be indeed such as no discourse of man euer could deuise or thinke on being vtterly supernaturall yet it is possible for a meere naturall man to learne what they are out of the Scriptures and that without faith because the Scriptures may be vnderstood by such helpes of the tongues and arts as humane learning doth affoord vs though to the sauing knowledge thereof the especiall grace of God be absolutely necessarie The other point that faith cannot be found but by the teaching of the true Church may also haue a double sense The first that faith cannot be wrought in any mans heart but by the preaching of some man authorized to that purpose by the true Church and this as I shewed before is not alwayes true for faith may be and hath bene begotten in some by the reading of the Scriptures where the ministery of the word was not to be had and by the teaching of ordinarie Christians not set apart to preach the Gospell The other meaning is this that faith cannot be attained to but by our hearkning to the voyce of such a Preacher as we alreadie know to be sent by the true Church And this indeed specially fits your purpose but hath no likelihood of truth in it For they that came to faith by the Apostles preaching did not beleeue them as men autorized for their instruction by the true church but as being conuinced in their consciences by the euidence of the truth they deliuered without
that therefore of this part per synecdochen the whole may be tearmed Holy especiallie considering that the faith of this part which was a principall roote out of which their holinesse did spring is all one in substance with the faith which we all professe and therefore we may say that our faith and profession inclineth leadeth to the same holinesse of life that theirs did And therefore though manie through their owne fault faile in the practise of vertue and holinesse yet our profession being all one with the profession of these holy men is to be tearmed holy as theirs was Of which holy profession in some sort all our whole companie may be called Holy as of the art of painting or anie other art all that professe them are commonlie tearmed by a name proper to their profession though it happen that diuers of them be not verie skilfull nor do not much exercise his art And from hence riseth the second difference betwixt Protestants and vs to wit that the verie doctrine it selfe which Protestants teach doth as I shewed before induce men to libertie and consequently to lewde life whereas the Romane faith which we professe both expreslie for biddeth all vice prescribeth lawes contrarie to libertie and loosenesse of life and containeth most soueraigne meanes to incite and mooue a man to all perfect vertue and holinesse of life As for example It teacheth that notwithstanding the prescience or predestination of Almighty God man hath free will wherwith being aided by Gods grace which grace through the merit of Christs Passion is readie for all that with humble deuout and perseuerant praier will aske and by frequenting in due sort the holy Sacraments will seeke for it he may auoid sinne and embrace vertue the which taketh away despaire of shunning euill and doing well which easily followeth of the contrarie opinion It teacheth also that Gods commaundements be not vnpossible to be obserued nay nor hard through helpe of grace which is alwaies at hand to be obserued of one which hath but a good will according as Saint Iohn saith Mandata eius grauia non sunt his commaundements be not heauie yea that they may by the same grace be easily obserued according to that of our Sauiour Iugum meum suaue onus meum leue my yoake is sweet and my burthen light The which moueth a man to conceiue great hope of eschewing euill and liuing well which hope and consequently heart to do well a man cannot haue who perswadeth himselfe that Gods commaundements be vnpossible to be obserued as I shewed before Againe it teacheth that as a man may by grace auoid sinne and easily keepe Gods commaundements and by doing good works liue well so this good life is pleasing and acceptable vnto God and these good workes as proceeding from grace and receiuing vertue from the merits of Christ of which this grace doth depend are meritorious such for reward wherof God will giue to them that perseuerantly do them euerlasting blisse in the kingdome of heauen The which doctrine will doubtlesse if it be duly considered breed in a mans mind great loue and delight to do well as the contrarie must needs breed at least a coldnesse in deuotion if not a contempt and loathing of good deeds and specially of those good deeds which haue any difficultie annexed to them It teacheth also that for sinners are prepared exceeding great punishments in the next life and that though there be meanes in the Church to get remission of sinne and pardon of the paine yet it teacheth that a man cannot ordinarily be absolutely certaine that he hath so vsed those meanes as that he hath thereby gotten that remission or pardon which is a great motiue to make men warie not to fall into sinne and to mooue them Cum metu tremore operari salutem with feare trembling to worke their saluation whereas Protestants vpon supposed certaintie of saluation cast away this wholesome feare and so may easily become carelesse of auoiding any sinne Furthermore it prescribeth wholesome lawes and customes of fasting and praier and of other exercises of vertue and pietie whereby the flesh may be subiect to the spirit and the spirit to God It maintaineth also secret confession of sinnes to a Priest as being a thing necessarie and commaunded by our Sauiour himselfe the which both is a great bridle to hold men backe from sinne as experience teacheth and is a speciall meanes whereby the Pastours of the Church knowing the inward conscience of their flock may better apply fit remedies to their spirituall diseases and prescribe to euery one fit exercises for their practise and progresse in vertue Finally the profession of this Church is such that euen simple Protestants when they see any Catholicke do a thing amisse will ordinarily say You should not do thus or a man of your profession should do otherwise So that those which be sinfull in the Roman Church cannot in any sort ascribe their sinnes to any defect or peruersitie of the doctrine of the Church but must needs acknowledge them to proceed from their owne frailtie or malice contrarie to the teaching of the Church and sometimes euen contrarie to their owne conscience and actuall knowledge Wherefore I may conclude that although there be some sinfull men in the Romane Church yet it may well be called Holy because the doctrine which it beleeueth and professeth of it owne nature inclineth and directeth a man to the true holinesse and consequently is of it selfe Holy and also because there be many holy persons in it some of which are certainely knowne in particular to be such by proofe of miracle Others are onely knowne by this probable reason to wit that they hold the same faith which was holden by those who haue bene certainly knowne be holy men and holding the same faith which must needs be the true faith sith none are truely holy or can possibly please God without the right faith which is but one they haue in them a roote out of which true holinesse is apt to spring And therefore when we see no apparent euill fruit whereby we may discouer some euill roote but onely good which is apt to spring of this good roote and especially when we see the fruite of their good works to be conformable and like to the works of those which are knowne Saints we haue great cause to iudge that they also are iust men and in some sorte holy if not perfectly Saintes Sith therefore many men which haue bene and are members of the Romane Church haue bene are knowne either by absolute proofe of miracle or at least in this other manner to be holy of these as of the better more worthie and principall part the whole may be as I said before tearmed Holy as a tree that hauing a roote apt to giue life to the branches some of which being dead others haue life is absolutely said to be aliue which if we should
see to haue a corrupted roote and could not perceiue it to haue any liuing branches we should haue cause to affirme absolutely that it were dead and not aliue A. W. He that doth not finde that you are a shamelesse slaunderer lookes verie sleightly into your report of the Protestants congregation You finde it is not holy No doubt you are a man of great intelligence and haue made diligent inquirie after the matter But it well becommeth the Pharisaicall pride of your Romish Synagogue to boast of your owne righteousnesse and in comparison of your selues to despise all men Let vs see what euidence you bring to prooue so greeuous an accusation Most of our men you say are euidently more wicked then men which liued both in old time and in later yeares in the Romane Church How euident you make this we will consider by and by For the present I say no more but that you speake craftily to deceiue vs in comparing most of our men with I know not what men that haue liued in the Roman Church There is no question but that generally the most are the worst euerie where because all men are naturally euill and none good but by the especiall grace of God working in them But if you would haue dealt plainely you should haue shewed that most men in our Churches are more wicked then most men that haue liued in your Romish Church since it became the bodie of Antichrist reuealed For we acknowledge that the Church of Rome was somtimes a true Church of Christ yeelding many worthie martyrs confessors and other holy men and women to the honour of the Gospell of Iesus Christ yea we denie not but that euen at this day there are some true Christians in your Churches and that the generall sort of Protestants are inferiour to some amongest you in regard of outward holinesse as for true inward sanctitie neither the one nor the other haue any part of it I meane neither ordinarie Protestants nor the best of your side who continue in the whole doctrine of your Church To prooue that you say against our Church you bring vs in two kinde of witnesses first generally those men that haue seene the conuersation of your Papists and our Protestants then particularly Luther Smidelin In the former consider how vaine a florish it was for you to compare our men now with Papists that liued in old time and to appeale for proofe to them that haue seene both as if you were able to shew vs some men of 700 or 800. yeares old or of 300. or 400 who haue knowne and considered the behauiour of your men and ours As for them that by trafficke or trauaile otherwise haue had sight and experience of both I dare stand to their iudgement in comparing our liues with yours for all parts of outward cariage In which matter I haue bene credibly informed by them whose credit I haue no cause to suspect that the abhomination of your Clergies and peoples liues hath partly bred setled in them a resolute abhorring of your religion to which otherwise they were indifferently affected But you presse vs with Luther and Smidelin who in their earnest exhortations and reproofes accuse our men for increase of sinne after the preaching of the Gospell Is this strange Doth not the holye Apostle tell vs that the Gospell in his time was abused to wantonnesse prophane men which yet made profession of religion taking aduantage of Gods gracious mercie preached in the Gospell to prouoke themselues to sinne Besides the greatest part at the renewing of the Gospell claue vnto Luther rather in a detestation of your religion the falsenesse whereof was most euident to them then in a certaine knowledge of the truth of that which he taught them But of whom spake Luther and Smidelin Of all Protestant Churches How can that be when they knew not the one halfe of them Is it a good reason then to condemne all Protestant Churches or the Protestants Church in generall because Luther and Smidelin complaine against the congregations in which they taught And yet what say they more then the Apostle Paule doth who chargeth the Corinthians with many grosse errors grieuous sinnes yea with such fornication as was not to be heard of among the Gentiles What say you to that sore accusation euen against the ministers of the Gospell All seeke their owne and not that which is Iesus Christs A man of your humour and wisedome would by and by conclude hereupon that the Church of God in the Apostles time was an vnholy congregation If you Iesuits Priests what you are in particular I neither know nor care bestowed as much paines in preaching as you do in plotting treason and hearing consessions such speeches would not seeme any thing strange vnto you But that you may the better perceiue the weakenesse of this your reason hearken a little what is said of your Church What one can you name me saith Bernard among all those that are spirituall rulers that doth not take greater care how he may emptie the peoples purses then how he may roote out their sinnes You say the most of our men are wicked Bernard to quit you for it pronounceth that there is not one of your Cleargie that maketh any conscience of discharging his duetie Haue you forgotten what a Bishop of yours said in the late Councell of Trent least any should thinke that you are better now then you were in Bernardes time The people saith the Bishop are fallen away from Christ to Antichrist from God to Epicurisme and the Priestes haue bene their ringleaders to all kinde of lewdnesse Yea Pope Adrian the sixt I am sure you will beleeue him speaking of your Prelates saith that All of them he putteth in himselfe too were declined cuerie one to his owne waies And that there had bene none of them a great while that had done any good no not one of them If such were and be the state of your Cleargie gesse you what the common people be Compare your witnesses and mine and tell me whether we ouermatch you or no both in number and weight Neuer any Saint of our Church Why do you not refute that which we alledge for our selues against this slander We pleade that Adam Abel Enoch Abraham and all the holy men named in the Scriptures with the Martyrs and confessors since our Sauiour Christs comming in the flesh that all the Apostles except Iudas whom we leaue to your Simoniacall congregation yea that many Bishops of Rome were of our Church To al this you reply not so much as one word but tell them that will beleeue you that there neuer was any Saint or holy man of our Church I cannot greatly blame you though you bind your followers to giue credit to you without looking for proofe of that you deliuer For if you should be put to that all were marred But I wil render you a