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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A02200	M. Some laid open in his coulers VVherein the indifferent reader may easily see, hovve vvretchedly and loosely he hath handeled the cause against M. Penri. Done by an Oxford man, to his friend in Cambridge.	Throckmorton, Job, 1545-1601.; Greenwood, John, d. 1593, attributed name.; Penry, John, 1559-1593, attributed name.	1589 (1589)	STC 12342; ESTC S118462	88,170	130

presently a nullitie Thirdly out of the seed of Adam she is limited only to the sexe of man if she should make a woman a minister there were presently a nullitie Out of the sexe of man she is limited only say we to those that can speake and haue the vse of reason for if shee shoulde make a naturall a madd man or a dumbe man a minister there were presently as we think a nullitie Now M. Penri goeth an ase further and saith that of those men that can speake haue the vse of reason shee is limited onely to suche as haue gifts and are in some measure Thithacticoi or else as he holdeth there is also a nullitie And here is that so hainous blasphemous error of his that hath so distempered M. Some and for the which he would so faine haue the magistrate to conjure him Whiche whether it be an error or no as for mine owne part I am not able to defyne it so yet doe I see that when men haue runne themselues windlesse in wanderinge yet must they of force in th'ende come to this to enquire Qualis est potestas Ecclesiae in admissione ministro rum quibus circumscripta finibus that is what kind of power the Church hath and within what boundes to be limited for therein consisteth the very marowe and sinewes of the whole controuersie to know how far the Church may stretch her arme in this case Yet by the way I cannot but muze at one thing that the popish churches should finde more grace and fauout in this our Metropolitan State then the reformed churches of other nations For it is graunted you see that the popish shauelings and their priests of Baal haue forsooth a calling though afaultie one but doe you think that this will be granted to those of our ministers that were only ordained by the reformed churches beyond sea Nay soft Be judge by M. Whittingham whome it is knowne th'Archb of Yorke called in question for his calling in that he was made minister at Geneua I haue heard also that M. Trauers when he was thrust out of the Temple was bidden by my Lord of Cant. to proue his calling alleaging that he was no minister for what authoritie saith he in his choller hath M. Cart. to make a minister Therefore you may see the lucke of it popish wretches and Apostates breathed vppon only by such as themselues are haue a callinge but other worthye men caled to the ministery by worthy churches must sine a newe for their letters of orders is not this good stuffe thinke you Wel sithence it is knowne that M. Trauers was in deede ordeined a minister by a reformed church beyond the sea I woulde your D. durst in his next discourse be as kinde to that poore ministery of his as he hath bene hithertoe to the popish priesthood that is of curtesie in respect of the credit of the Reformed churches to giue it some allowance of a calling yea albeit his grace of Cant. should stand against it For he knowes it can be no more blasphemie in M. Penri to say that the popish church can not make a minister then it is in an other greter man to say that the reformed churches cannot make a minister But I feare me M. Some is not at leasure he wil pleasure vs in an other matter for such a dash with a penne as this might happely breede a scabbe why is it not well that he taketh our parts in the Nullitie of womens ministerie but still men will be regrating more at his hands Therefore because we will holde him where we haue him I wil be so bold in that point to recorde his words lest in time he giue vs the slippe men growe so giddy headed nowe a daies They that haue heard my sermons saith he or read my writings doe knowe very wel that I alowe of non to preach the worde or administer the sacraments without a calling therfore neither woman nor priuate man plainly implying that it is vnpossible for a woman to haue any calling I promise you I was glad when I reade it with all my hart for I was halfe a fraide before I tel you that we should haue some learned paradoxe or some godly treatise in the defence of the ministery of weomen with this or the like prety gloze Quoad substantiam but not quoad qualitatem or else with this That they should haue had a calling though a faltie one which had bene but peccatum ecclesiae or else with this that the sexe had bene but of th'essence of a lawful good minister but not of a minister simply and that for vs it shold suffice only to muffie our faces with a setled perswasion that Ministerium is datum and acceptum and so hang wholly vpon th'ordination of the church without farther questioning or inquirye Al this I tel you I was a fraide of but nowe sithence we are sure of M. Some one our side we shal feare the lesse the assaults of others as hauing on string more to our bowe then we looked for For he is as learned in his conceite as the best of them and if he take a pitch I beleue he wil be as hot as the best of them toe for neede And thus by occasion of your D. worthy position that reading doth edisie haue I fallen as you see cursorie into the question of the ministers office and so of the calling of the ministerie It is but my poore verdicte you see and therefore you neede not make a recorde of it vnlesse you list for you knowe what a deep clarke I am if you desire farther to be satisfied in the point I referr you ouer to him to whome the matter especially appertaineth who I hope will either answere his aduersarie with lesse ven●me and more modesty then he finds at his hands or els giue over the cause in silence For mine owne part as my skil is not greate so doe I not hould any thing but I am apt enough to recall it if you or a meaner man then you can bringe me the word to refute it but hithertoe I confesse I see noe farther Well your D. hath yet an other wipe at th'ignorant Welchman which I had like to haue forgotten the best is it is with an if aswel as the rest If you thynk saith he that al the popish sort that died in the popish Church are damned you thinke absurdly most true they that thinke so thinke absurdly in deede and I promise you therein I must hould with M. Some that if M. Penri thinke so he is much to blame But I pray you aske your D. when you see him vpon what wall or with what cole M. Penri did record this thinking of his for as yet I beleeue this monster is vnborne vnheard of And how if M. Penri or some of the fantastical crewe should nowe in riquitall say thus If you thinke M. Some that the calling of a B. or an Archb. is

their judgment in that M. Some hath branded them al with this marke that they are void of common sence Thus you see howe easilie a wise man may overshut him selfe when he is in his ruffe and therefore it is most rrue as one saide once That a pacient minde discerneth aright but a passionate hart seldome seeth the trueth here you see your learned doctor hath granted the poore ignorant Welchman both the maior and the minor so that I see no shift in the worlde but only M. Bridgis his shift that is to deny the conclusion Well howsoeuer in discretion or otherwise in a kind of conceitednesse he may happely overshut him selfe you tel me that questionlesse he is learned It may be so neither wil I say against it I knowe there may be wine enough in the seller when there is non in the cuppe and it may bee that M. Some in this encoumpter against M. Penri did chuse rather to look vp his learning against the rising of some billowe or tempest then to stand powring it out against so weak an aduersarie whom his conceite might casely ennough be ouerthrowne with a blast of words But the thing we stand vpon is this that howe learned soeuer he be he hath shewed litle of it in this treatise And that if those worthy men whome in hart I reuerence and whose guises I admire M. Fulke and M. Whitaker I meane had acquited them selues noe better against their seueral aduersaries then M. Some hath done against his your famous vniuersitie that you boast of had bene like enough to haue receiued a scarre in the face long ere this and therefore let your D. ruffle it neuer so much in bigge words and countenances yet I can tel you if he releeue vs not better in his next supply then he hath done hithertoe be he as lerned as he wil we Oxforde men shal thinke that M. Penri hath a greate dealo more cause to feare th'Archb his purseuant then your D. penne For what call you lerning in this age I would you would your selfe take some paines to draw an Analisis of your Doct. booke and then tel me whether we judge amisse For mine owne parte I confesse to you I haue viewed it and reuiewed it and I finde very litle in it but that which may easily be drawen to one of these 4 heads The 4. principall heades or common places of M. Somes book 1 Bitter and spightful speaches to bring his aduersarie into danger 2 Bare and naked assertions as if it were sufficient that himselfe doth say so 3 Needlesse positions that few or none euer doubted of 4 The bare authoritie and Judgement of men without ground In these with the begging of the question and the praising of himselfe lieth the sum of his whole booke I beleeue I say you cannot bringe me many thinges out of his treatise but it may easily be referred to on of these And these you knowe be noe such fortresses but that they may easily be battered and laide flatt to th'earth by a weker Cannon then euer M. Penri shote in his life By the way I pray you remember that I doe not in any sorte take exceptions to M. Somes learning in general that is to that knowledge which he fansieth to be in him selfe I meddle not with that onely to the learning which it hath pleased him to giue vs a tast of in this booke this is the thing that I thinke a very meane Scholler may justly complaine of without danger And I am verely perswaded I beare soe much reuerence to the man that if it were his doing he wrote it altogether without studie as it were vpon a spleene or in hast as he was riding to Lambeth Nowe for the first point which is his bitter over-passionate speaches I thinke you haue heard inough already for no longer a treatise then that is I dare say you thinke it was enough euea of conscience For the second vz. his autos ephe that is his bare and peremptory assertions if you finde that in any eight penny booke of some 40. leaues or there abouts for I think of it selfe it be not much bigger your D. hath cloyed our eares with aboue 400. of those speches without either sappe or salt in them will you not thinke it strange To tel you the very truth I haue taken some paines to reckon them lease by leafe and I finde them as I tel you aboue 400. much after the nature complection of these you are not ready you are to seeke in the principles of diuinity you knowe not your ignorance your speaches are very idle it is noe greate matter what you say your bolt is soone shotte your water is very shallowe your eies are not matches such trisles are toe base for your greate spirits your conclusion is nothing else but an Anabaptistical florish your argument is very nought fancie your argument is as weake as a staffe of reede your argument is as strong as a roppe of sand euery childe may see the weakenesse of it but I must be content to put it vp it is such ware as you haue He that wanteth woode must burne turse your writings are like the winde This beate of yours is like a blaze of thornes it will last but a while your cause is nought your armor is not of proofe your diuinitie is as a lowe ebbe your arguments are pitiful your answeres are sily c. And if I should goe one I thinke I shoulde tyre you I hope you will witnesse with me though there may be some little eloquence yet there is noe greate learninge Logicke or diuinitie in this It is sure but the good luck that some men haue ouer others for if poore M. Penri had written thus he should haue bene chronicled I warrant you for a cobling welchman while he had liued For the thirde Piller of M. Doctors booke that is needelesse positions whereof there is smale controuersie I thinke I shal not neede to wander farr to finde your presidents for M. Some himselfe in the beginning of both his bookes doth lay them downe to vs in a role it were to no vse and a mere spending of time to runn through them all and therefore I will onely recorde some fewe of them for a tast of the rest A godly prince saith he may and ought to compell his subiects if any refuse to th'externall seruice of God This being a matter so notably throughlie handeled alreadie by M. Fulke and M. Wyborne against Howlet that almost there cannot any thing be added to that which they haue sett downe I muse your D. would be at cost to print vs a newe Almanacke of the last yeare I doe not knowe of any that professe the holy religion of God in soundenesse and sinceritie that will denie this And therefore I dare say for M. Penri that he wil willingly with hart and hande subscribe to it yea and I thinke he will if neede be adde one

Th'onely way that I see is to couch vnder the board and keepe close for the time till that same perillous pillorie whiche so frighteth and threatneth men with their cares be shifted or remooued out of his place In deed it is not vnlike that some of their wretched and fawning soliciters doe but too often warble vpon that string in her Majesties cares thereby to make way to the rest of their odious and malicious complaints And me think I should see some reuerent B. or other one his knees before her maiestie as one loath to speake good man but only that the heinousnes of the case doth therevnto force him as it were against his wil and therfore he begins I warrant you with a sigh or 2. fetched from the very depth of his bowels in this sort O Madame you may see nowe what your puritans are come to As men alwaies rising from one error to another neuer at rest they are nowe growen to this that your Maiestie is not christned are you not greately beholden to them By this your highnes may measure the fruite of the rest of their desires Therefore you may yeeld to their newe platforme if you please but I feare Madame my hart trembleth to speake it you shal not enioy many good daies after Sure if wee may knowe of any such venemous complainte to her maiestie we wil fly to M. Some to prooue them liers all for he hath set downe in print that M. Penri is in the case of H. N. that is in manner a lone in this judgment of the Nulltie and therefore if they vse vs thus to make a number of vs when the sault if it be a falt lieth but in one alone though wee dare not tell them yet we will get M. Some to tell them that by their leaue they lye and they lye loudely toe But for the point wherein M. Some thinks he hath his aduersarie on the hippe first wee say for the clearing of our selues and we speak it even in singlenesse of heart be thou O God witnesse and reuenge if we lie that we doe account her maiestie the deare childe of God so marked from her Cradle and so chosen from the very foundations of th'earth whereof wee doubt not but shee hath had assured seales and testimonies to her owne soule not only by her outwarde and miraculous desiuerances but by an inwarde sense and seeling of Gods mercies she hath bene from her infancie through Gods greate mercie deliuered from the dregs of popery thereby from one of the gates that leadeth vnto hell She hath since that time made noe doubt some fruteful increase in the knowledge of the truth She hath bin kept from those soule and enormious sinns which other great States princes haue fallen into She hath not feared to professe and publikely to a vowe the cause notwithstandinge the frowning threats and practises of many other mightie potentates round about her yea though her blood haue bene many wayes vnjustly sought for and onely for the gospell sake yet hath shee not for any suche earthly respect abandoned the cause but hath boldly from time to time euen with joye of heart succoured the afflicted both at home and abroad yea and more it is manifest that vnder that happy and peaceable soveraigntie of hers many a thousand haue come to the sound knowledge of the trueth which were before in palpable darknes And these be to vs ward sussicient reasons motions to put vs out of doubt that whatsoeuer other wants weaknesses infirmities she may haue incident to flesh and blood yet that shee is the deare childe of God and right precious in his eyes if that be so then I hope I shall not need to stand loug about any pretie catechisme as M. Some hath done about the inabillitie of the regenerate to proue That whom God loueth he loueth for euer for I do assure my self meaner mé thé M. Some are resolued in that Wel that then being set down for granted That whom God loueth he loueth sor euer and that it is vnpossible for al the power of hell and darknes to wipe her Majestie out of the booke of life wherein she is written let vs com to that wound that M. Some and others do think to be so vncurable namely That her Maiestie should be vnbaptized First though it be very cleare that M. Penri doth not say so altogether disclaiming the point as an odious and fruitlesse controuersie yet because M. Some wil stil be hagling at that biting consequent as a man halfe starued and hungerbit for want of other sustenance let vs alowe for once that M. Penri did say soe in deede what then What wil your learned D. assume vppon that I trust if it were granted him for a maior a man might soone ghesse what woulde be his minor namely this I am perswaded if you be not wel coniured by the magistrate you wil proue a strange body and then what should be the conclusion but Hue Crie So that if the cutlers shoppe doe not better befriende your D. in this case then th'vniuersity he is at a stand But let vs presuppose that her maiestie were vnbaptised though I knowe of none that say so yet so long as shee hath the inwarde baptisme that is so long as shee is baptized of the holy Ghost and with fier hauing joyfully embraced the holy faith of the sonne of God and withall hauing the seale and assurance of that which shal neuer be taken from her that is of remission of sinns in the death righteousnes of Christ and that more is hauing also many times bin comfortably fedde and refreshed at the Lords table by those holy seals of her redemption as a farther pledg of the fauour and mercy of God I see no reason nor I know no vse why after all this that she should be brought backe againe to the sacrament of her entrance and ingrasting into the body if it were so that she were not baptized if there be any other mistery in the matter I franckly confesse it is more then I see as yet As for that ineuitable and remedilesse necessitie of the Sacrament which the bewitched papists doe so sottishly dreame of I hope al the children of God haue long a goe turned that strange beast a grazing as hauing bin safficiently taught That it is not the want of the sacrament but the contempt and neglect of the sacrament that is damnable Nowe her maiestie being already perswaded in her hart that shee is baptized cannot thereby justly be said either to contemne or neglect the sacrament because she resteth in that perswasion howsoeuer it be whether she be baptized or no be ing cleare from these 2. sinns of contempt and neglect we are assured it shall noe kinde of waie redound to her hart because shee is the childe of God and wee doubte not but shee findeth and feeleth daylie those inward comforts and tokens of Gods loue towardes her as neither