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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A89606	The independency of England endeavored to be maintained by Henry Marten, a member of the Parliament there, against the claim of the Scottish Commissioners, in their late ansvver upon the bills and propostions sent to the King in the Isle of Wight.	Marten, Henry, 1602-1680.	1648 (1648)	Wing M822; Thomason E422_16; ESTC R754	12,750	28

fellow-feeling with us of the wholesomness or perniciousness of your counsels whereas now since we are able by Gods blessing to protect our selves we may surely with his holy direction be sufficient to teach our selves how to go about our own business at least without your tutoring who have nothing in your considerations to look upon but either your particular advantage or that of the Kingdom whence you are And as there is some alteration in affairs so there is very much in persons I mean in your selves unless being indeed the same at first which now we find you you only wanted an opportunity to appear but whether you be changed or discovered what English-man soever shal peruse the Papers that you have shot into both Houses of Parliament especially into the House of Commons these two last years had as lieve take advice from the King as from you if a stranger should read them he would litle suspect the writers for Friends or Counsellers but for Pleaders for Expostulators for Seekers of a quarrel and that which is the most bitter weed in the pot in the behalf not so much of them who did employ you as of him against whom you were employed and against whom if you were Scottish-men nature would teach you to employ your selves By this time I hope you see we have greater cause to repent that we have kept such thornes thus long in our sides then to return with the dog to the same vomit and with the lazy Sow scarce clensed of herformer wallowing to bemire our selves again I bestow a little the more ink upon this point because I would prevent the like claim hereafter and have it left to the liberty of this nation next time they shall be invaded or oppressed though they did once call in their Brethren of Scotland to their aide whether they wil do so any more or no. Having gone through your 5 Arguments at the end of your dozen Commandements so I call desires that must not be slighted ou pain of incurring the guilt of violating Engagements and of such dangers as may ensue thereupon I observe one engine you use whereon you lay more weight then upon all you say beside It begins with a flourish of oratory bespeaking a fair Interpretation of your meaning though your motion be to take the right eye out of every one of our heads then you think to make your desires legitimate with fathering them upon a Kingdom and put us in mind how wel that Kingdom hath deserved to raign over this For to the offering of desires as desires there needs no merit sure but since your opinion that the advantages of honor lie all on that side and that Obligations of this sort have not been as reciprocall between both Nation as those of Leagues and Treaties wil force my pen upon this Subject I shall let you know that some what may be said when modesty gives leave on this side too and yet all the kindnesses we have received from Scotland shall by my consent not only be payd for but acknowledged and I can be content to beleeve that our Neighbours did not know how ill we were till we were almost past cure and therefore came slowly to us that they did not know how wel we were in a year after we had nothing for them to do and therefore went slowly from us Only I would have it confessed that the fire we talk of was of your Countrymans kindling began to burn at your house to be quenched at ours and by our hands But admit this Nation had been meerly passive in this War and did owe their deliverance out of the Kings Talons wholly to the Scottish Nation if the rescuer become a ravisher if they have protected their own prey they have merited only from themselves and have their reward in their hands What have we gotten by the bargain What have we saved What have we not lost For if once you come to fetch away my Liberty from me I shal not ask you what other thing you wil leave me and the Liberty of a people governed by Laws consists in living under such Laws as themselves or those whom they depute for that purpose shal make choice of To give out orders is the part of a Commander to give the Law of a Conqueror although our Norman did not think sit so to exercise his right of Conquest Nay our condition would be lower and more contemptible if we should suffer you to have your will of us in this particular then if we had let the King have his 1. A King is but one Master and therefore likely to sit lighter upon our shoulders then a whole Kingdom and if he should grow so heavy as cannot wel be born he may be sooner gotten off then they You shal see a Mounsiours horse go very proudly under a single man but PLACE = marg n = * To carry double to be Charge en crouppe is that which nature made a mule for if nature made a mule at all 2. The King never pretended to the framing and imposing of Laws upon us as you do he would have been content with such a negative voyce therein as we allow you in the making of our peace with him did we fight rather then afford him so much though seemingly derived unto him from his Predecessors and shal we tamely give you more Give you that which your Ancestors never yet durst ask of ours 3. Lastly it had been far more tolerable for the King then for any Forraign Nation to have a share in the making of our Laws because he was likely to partake and that largely in the benefit of them if good in the inconveniences if bad which strangers are not nay contrarily it is matter of envy and jealousie betwixt neighbours to see each other in a flourishing estate So as the proper end of Laws being to advance the people for whom they are made in wealth and strength to the uttermost they are the most incompetent Judges of those Laws in the world whose interest it is to hinder that people from growing extreamly rich or strong By what hath been already said and by a word or two of close it wil I hope appear that the claim you make to the voting with us in the matter of our Laws and the conditions of our peace as a thing whereunto we should be obliged by agreement is 1. Mistaken in matter of Fact there being no such engagement on either side 2. Unreasonable for the considerations above mentioned and for being destructive to the very principles of property 3. Unequal notwithstanding the reciprocation more then Cyrus his childish judgment was in making the little boy change coats with the great one because his was long and the others short For our coats are not only longer then yours but as fit for us that do wear them as for you that would 4. Unusual there being no president for it that I could ever read or hear of and yet there have been leagues betwixt states of a stricter Union then this betwixt us as offensive and defensive ours only defensive 5. Unsafe for the keeping up of hedges boundaries and distinctions I mean reall and jurisdictive ones not personal and titulary is a surer way to preserve peace among neighbours then the throwing all open And if every man be not admitted wise enough to do his own business whoever hath the longest sword will quickly be the wisest man and dis-inherit all his neighbours for Fools 6. Impossible to be made good to you if it had been agreed For the Parliament it self from whom you claim hath not in my humble opinion authority enough to erect another authority equal to it self As for your exhortations to piety and loyalty wherewith you conclude When you have a mind to offer Sacrifice to your God and Tribute to your Emperour since the one wil not be mocked and the other should not you may do wel to do it of your own and to remember that the late unnaturall war with all the Calamities that have ensued thereon took its rise from unnaturall enchroachments upon the severall Rights and Liberties of two Nations resolved it seems to hold their own with the hazard of a war and all the Calamities that can ensue thereon Henry Marten FINIS

THE INDEPENDENCY OF ENGLAND Endeavored to be maintained By HENRY MARTEN a Member of the Parliament there Against the Claim of The SCOTTISH Commissioners In their late ANSWER UPON THE Bills and Propositions SENT to the KING in the Isle of Wight London Printed for Peter Cole at the Printing-Press in Cornhil near the Royal-Exchange and John Sweeting at the Angel in Popes-head Alley 1648. THE INDEPENDENCY OF ENGLAND Endeavored to be maintained against the Claim of the Scottish Commissioners TO rectifie not to upbraid you You have for divers years together been very well entreated by us of this Nation and that from a willingless we ever had as upon all occasions so particularly in your persons to manifest the brotherly respect we bear towards them who sent you Upon the same accompt many former Boldnesses and Provocations of yours have been winked at by the Parliament as I am confident this last Answer would likewise be did you not therein seem to have remained here so long as to have quite forgotten why you came You may therefore please to be remembred That it was no part of your first business whatever supplemental Commissions may since have been procured for a further exercise of your patience among us to settle Religion not to make a Peace in England so as all those devout-like and amicable Endeavors for which you think to be thanked were not onely Intrusions into Matters unconcerning you but so many Diversions from performing as you ought what was properly committed to you As for our Religion since the zeal of your Countreymen would needs carry their care thereof so far from home me thinks their Divines now sitting with ours at Westminster might excuse your trouble in this particular or at least might teach you by their practice That your Advice therein to the Parliament is to be but an Advice and that an humble one As for the other particular of Peace it is true that about three years agone here were Ambassadors from our Neighbors of the Low-Countreys who having found the King almost weary of Fighting made use of their Priviledge and did his Errand in stead of their Masters which was with big words to beg a Peace After that when the Kings Cause had nothing left to lean upon but the Treachery of our false Friends and Servants an Ambassador from our Neighbors of France did en passant make a certain overture of Accord betwixt the Crown and the Head But your employment here from our Neighbors of Scotland had so little relation to Peace that your onely work was to joyn Counsels with a Committee of ours in ordering and disposing such Auxiliary Forces as that Kingdom should send into this for carrying on the War As to the Delays you charge upon the Parliament in that they Answer your Papers sometimes late and sometimes not at all yet require peremptory and speedy Resolutions from you as if their dealings were unequal towards you I hope you will give over making such Constructions when you shall consider how much more business lies upon their hands then upon yours and how much flower progress the same Affairs must needs finde in passing both Houses then if they were to be dispatched onely by four or five Commissioners Were not I conscious to this truth and to the abundant civility they have always for you in their undelayed reading present referring and desire of complying with what you send them so far as might consist with their Duty to this Common-wealth and that they want nothing but time to say so I should never have presumed to trust so great a Cause upon the Patronage of so rude a Pen Neither indeed is it left there my design being to let the world imagine how strong a stream of Justice runs on our side when I dare oppose the Reasons of my single barque against all the advantages of Number Abilicies and Countenance that you can meet me with For orders sake I shall take the pains to set the body of your Discourse as upright as I may its prolixity and perplexity considered upon two feet One is The Claim you make in behalf of the Kingdom of Scotland to the inspection of and conjunction in the matter of our Laws and the conditions of our Peace The other mistaking the first for evinced is Your telling us what you think fit and what unfit for us to establish in our Church and State and what way you conceive most proper for obtaining of a Peace betwixt the King and us together with the Proofs wherewith you seek to fortifie your several Opinions It would give your first foot too much ground to hold Dispure with you upon the second therefore since a man may see by your forwardness in printing and publishing both these and other your Transactions with the Houses that your Arguments like the Kings in His Messages are not framed so much to satisfie the Parliament as to beget in the People a dis-satisfaction towards the Parliament I will God enabling me take a time apart to undeceive my Countreymen concerning both the King and you by laying the Hook as open as the Bait in all your lines And for the present apply my self onely to the shewing you That when you shall have offered your Counsel to the Parliament of England as for ought I know any one man may do unto another in matters concerning this Kingdom onely though the most wholsom Counsel that ever was or can be given and the Parliament shall not approve it not so much as a Conference upon it it is no more maners in you then it would be in the same number of Spaniards Indians or of the most remote Region of the Earth to press it again to insist upon it and to proclaim your unsatisfaction in it Let us with your favor confider your pretences You do not aym as your selves profess in the second Paragraff of your fourth page at sharing in our Rights Laws nor Liberties but in other Matters viz. such as either in their own Nature or by Compact are common to both Kingdoms which I take the more notice of because one would suppose you to be grown kinder now then you were the other day when you went about to make us believe that nothing in our Laws did properly belong to us but the form and maner of proceeding therein the matter of them being held in common with the Kingdom of Scotland and therefore and for their possibility of containing something prejudicial to that Kingdom to be revised by you before they receive their perfection But the truth is you are still where you were onely the Peoples ears are by this time so habituated to the Doctrines you frequently sow among them those Doctrines so improved by your Seminaties who finde their own Interest interwoven with yours and the Parliament seeming but a looker on that you perswade your selves any thing will pass that you shall set your Stamp on otherwise you would certainly have been ashamed to disavow the

reasons as Jehu did upon a less occasion You do not wonder what confidence we can repose in him after all this experience of him and before so much as a promise of any amendment from him you do not warn us by the example of your Country men what a broken reed we shal lean upon when we make a pacification with him You do not remember us with what horror the Assembly of your Church did look upon his misdoings nor what sence both Kingdoms had not of a reconcilement with him but of suffering him to come neer the Parliament of England until satisfaction were given for the blood which he had then caused to be shed in the three Kingdoms In fine You do not say for you need not give us your reasons that you wil make no peace with the King therefore we ought not but you do as bad as say that you have made your peace already and that not only without our consent in despite of the Article which you urge against us but without our privity that you are come a degree beyond being friends with him to be advocates for him not in mediating that his submission might be accepted his crimes obliterated and their salary remitted but in asserting the same cause which we have been all this while confuting with our swords the same cause which what English-man or Scotish-man soever shal have endeavored to maintain in Arms is a declared Traytor to his Country if by his tongue or pen in that Kingdom of the two where he is no Native a manifest incendiary But there wil be time enough to do your errand into Scotland after I have proved England to be a Noun Substantive against which you have the shadow of one Argument left stil Ar. 5. The strength of your last Reason is this Our Parliament hath formerly communicated unto you the matter of their Propositions and of their Bils in order to Peace and generally indeed whatever hath passed betwixt the King and us since the conjunction of the two Kingdoms against him Thereupon you have offered us your Advice concerning the Particulars so communicated and we have re-considered them upon your Advice sometimes complying therewith other times making it appear to you why we could not that communication of counsels say you we would never have suffered if we had not been bound to it which if we ever were we stil are Custom and constant usage I acknowledg doth commonly obtain the name of Law but the late practise of some four or five years hath not an aspect reverend enough to deserve the name of Custom it is as old you wil say as an usage can be that is grounded upon a treaty of the same age and shal be sufficient to signifie how the parties to the Treaty did understand their own meaning I should not deny this pretence of yours to be more then colourable if you could prove that our transactions with the King were imparted to you in relation to that Engagement nay if I could not shew you upon what other ground we did it and that we could not reasonably be imagined to do it upon that First to prove what the Parliament had in their intentions when they advised with you I beleeve you wil not undertake especially this being the first time to my remembrance that this point came in question betwixt us I shal therefore endeavor to tel you as neer as I can having been an attentive witness to most of their Debates upon that subject what it was that moved them to give your challenge so much probability of advantage as this amounts unto You ask that now without being answered which you were wont to have without asking You were so and that from these two Roots One was the extraordinary care the Parliament had to omit no act no circumstance of civility towards you which might express or preserve the amity and correspondence betwixt them and your Masters though they were not ignorant what extream prejudice courteous and good natured men have often drawn upon themselves in their dealing with persons of a contrary disposition Another was since both Kingdoms have been imbarqued in the same cause as men of War and were afterwards resolved to trade for peace since the commodities of both were to be stowed in the same bottom and bound for the same Port we thought it but an ordinary piece of friendship for us who could make no markets when we should be arrived without your allowance to open and let you see before we launched our several parcels and instructions concerning what we would export and what bring home not that we meant to consult you what kind of Merchandize you thought fittest for us to deal in which questionless is better known at the Exchange then at Edinburgh nor to follow such advice therein as you should give us without asking any further then we liked it and so far the best Merchant in London is content to be ruled by the Swabber of his ship but meerly to the end you might if you pleased from our example and from your aprobation of the ware we were resolved to deal in furnish that Kingdom whose Factors you were with Merchandize of the same kind and for evidence that the Freedom we used towards you was no otherwise understood by you you did actually under write divers of our Bils of Lading in these sillables The like for the Kingdom of Scotland It remains to be shewed how litle reason there is you should fancy to your selves such a ground of the Parliaments former openness to you as you strive to father upon them For first If they had communicated their Propositions to you as conceiving the word Agreement in the eighth Article to comprehend all the preparations to materials of and circumstances in an Agreement they would not have adhered as many times they did unto their own resolutions notwithstanding your reiterated dissatisfaction Again If they had conceived themselves bound to any such thing by this Article would they not have thought the Kingdom of Scotland as much bound for their parts Should we not have been as diligent inspectors and castigators of your Propositions as you have made your selves of ours When you shal ask me setting the point of duty aside and granting all that hath bin done by us in this kind to have been voluntary Why we do not observe the same forwardnes in communicating our matters to you the same patience in expecting your concurrence with us and the same easiness of admitting your Harangues and Disputations amongst us which you have heretofore tasted at our hands and how we are become less friendly then we were I have this to say There is some alteration in the condition of affairs So long as we needed the assistance of your Country-men in the Field we might have occasion to give you meetings at Derby House and now and then in the Painted Chamber it being likely that the Kingdom of Scotland might then have a