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A67449 A dialogue concerning women, being a defence of the sex written to Eugenia. Walsh, William, 1663-1708.; Dryden, John, 1631-1700. 1691 (1691) Wing W645; ESTC R13108 44,218 144

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of which the greatest Wits of the World have been guilty before us And when I saw all Greece and the greater part of Asia venturing their Lives for one Woman I thought I had somewhat the advantage of them whilst I ventur'd nothing but my Rethorick for 'em altogether And when you nam'd Samson Achilles Annibal and Mark Anthony I enquir'd who those Gentlemen were for certainly thought I if they were such brave men and great Soldiers as I have heard 'em represented we have no reason to despair of the Victory when we have them to lead us on You might have spoken more generally of 'em ●oo if you had pleas'd you might have told us that there never was a great Soldier who was not as famous for his Amours as his Battles that a Poet was scarce thought free of his Trade who had not paid some Duties to Love and you might have added to these all the Wise-men and Philosophers of the World You might have inform'd us that David tho' a man after God's own Heart was not contented without some share in the Womens That Solomon who knew the Vertue of every Plant from the Cedar of Libanus ● to the Hysop that grows upon the Wall took as much pains to have as general a knowledge of the Ladies That Socrates who was the ugliest as well as the wisest man of his time wou'd in spite of Nature aim at Love too and not terrify'd by one ill Wife wou'd try to mend his hand in another That Plato whom Antiquity has call'd Divine did not spend all his time in erecting Commonwealths but that some of it was bestow'd upon the Xantippe's and Archeanassa's That Aristotle whom Philip made Governour to Alexander made himself a Slave to his Mistress that this was not an effect of his Passion alone but of his Reason That he said Love was not only upon the account of Copulation but Philosophy and commands his Wise-man to be in Love before he bids him meddle with the Commonwealth And in fine that this great man who fathom'd all Arts and Sciences who has given us the best Rules of Philosophy Politicks Poetry c. did also not think it unbecoming his Gravity to write one Treatise of Love and four Amatory Theses You might have mingl'd Sacred Story with Profane You might have told us that St. Peter was married that St. Paul defended the leading about a Sister that we owe one of the most celebrated Fathers of the Church to the Endeavours and Conversion of a Woman and that St. Ierom had so great an esteem for the Sex as to dedicate a great part of his Works to some of ' em You might have added to these a thousand more which you see I purposely omit to avoid Prolixity and mention none but whom you will allow to be the most celebrated of their profession without doing your Cause any injury in the least for after all it is but shewing us a Drawing Room of Fops reading a Dialogue out of Lucian seeing a Scene of a Play quoting a Sentence out of Solomon's Proverbs searching all History for two or three ill Women and the business is done the Cause is gain'd let the Trumpets sound and Io Paean be sung for the Victory I am sorry Sir that I cannot be as civil to you as you have been to me It goes against my Conscience to place you with so bad Company considering with what you have obliged me and of those few great men whom you have seduc'd to your Party I am concern'd that I must take the better part from you I fancy after what I have already said of Solomon after reflecting upon his History you cannot think him a true Friend to your Cause and therefore will not I hope depend too much upon him I shall say nothing of his Wives and Concubines I shall not as much as mention his Canticles which Grotius as well as I affirms to be a Love-Poem and which Rapin reckons both the first and best of Pastorals but I shall attack you at your own Weapon I shall oppose Proverb against Proverb if he has been severe in 'em upon ill Women whose Cause I do not undertake he has spoken as favourably of the Wise and the Good for whom we appear in like manner if Euripides has represented Women so in his Tragedies as to get the Name of the Woman-hater I appeal from his Writings to his Life and Conversation which shew him far otherwise If Simonides gives you severe Characters of several Women he gives you one at last that makes amends for all one in whom no fault can be found and if you think that is not enough to take him off from your party if you are still so very fond of him we will tell you that Men who are deform'd and ugly as Simonides was naturally declare themselves Enemies to Women because they fancy Women are Enemies to them and upon that account not upon the account of his Wit we will allow him to you As for St. Chrysostom tho' we have all the respect imaginable for a Father of the Church and upon that account shall not enter into the Merits of the Cause betwixt him and the Empress Eudoxia yet this we shall say Sir that as Fathers of the Church are Subject to Passions as well as other men so it is no wonder that a man who is us'd very ill by one Woman and converses with few else shou'd conclude 'em all alike Thus after having taken two of your Patriots from you and if not taken at least disabled the other two from being very credible Witnesses you are reduc'd to Lucian and Iuvenal For the former if I shou'd quote you what the old Fathers say of him if I shou'd tell you that he did not only abuse the Christian Religion but even his own that he rallied all the Philosophers Orators and Historians of his time that not content with that he falls foul upon those his own Religion taught him to worship as Gods I fancy you wou'd not think what such a man says of any great weight but truly Sir there is no need of that in this case What does this Lu●ian do pray Why he describes the Bawds Griping Covetous and encou●aging their Daughters in Lewdness ●is Curtisans False Jilting and true Curtisans throughout And what of all this pray what does this make for you 'T is not the Cause of Bawds or Curtisans that we undertake tho' even amongst them he represents a great part Easie Loving good-natur'd Fools and us'd accordingly by their Lovers But does Lucian pretend that there are no good Women Does he fall upon the Sex in general or does not he bring in Charicles in one place defending 'em and does not he make the greatest Encomium that can be of Panthaea in another and speak with abundance o● esteem of several other Women in the same And if he does introduce
much better pleas'd by a Gallant but if she were one who valu'd her Chastity so much and her Life so little as they wou'd make us believe 't is somewhat odd that she shou'd rather let Tarquin enjoy her alive than a Slave lye in the Bed with her when she was dead and that she shou'd chuse to commit the Sin rather than bear the Shame But let us forgive 'em all these things I have mention'd and since Le Chambre assures us that there is no Beauty in a Woman but what is a sign of some Vice let us attribute it to Nature's fault not theirs and reckon that the more vicious they are the nearer they come to the perfection of the Sex and indeed not spending much time in their Conversations I will pardon 'em all their Levity Babling Malice and Impertinence and being unmarried shall not be so severe upon their Lusts and Adulteries provided they will stop there Let Helen run away from her Husband with a handsomer man but let her not suffer all Troy to be ruin'd for the keeping her there Let Clytemnestra lye with another man during her Husband's absence but let her not murder him for it when he comes home Let Semiramis make use of all the handsomest Fellows of her Army but let her not put 'em to death for fear they should tell tales and tho' I wou'd forgive her yet her own Sex wou'd never pardon her being the first maker of Eunuchs Let Phaedra and Fausta invite their Husbands Sons to supply their Fathers defects but let 'em not accuse 'em and have 'em put to death for refusing Let Ioan of Naples make use of all the men in her Kingdom but let her not strangle her Husband for his imperfections in a point that he cou'd not help That Cruelty and Barbarity I confess is what provokes me so much against the Sex I can see Tibullus's Mistress jilt him for a Fool who is not half so handsome I can see Ovid waiting all night at his Mistress's Door whilst another man is in her Arms and I can see half a score Impertinent Women plaguing you with non-sensical Stories and be very well diverted all the while but I confess I cannot hear of Medea's cutting her Brother in pieces and strewing his Limbs in the way to stop her pursuing Father without horror and dread nor of her treating her own Children after the same manner to revenge her self upon Iason without a like emotion I know not how other People may bear such things but for my part when I see all the Murders and Barbarities they commit to revenge themselves on their unconstant Lovers to get rid of their Husbands for some one they like better or to prevent the discovery of their Lewdness but my Hair stands on end my Blood shrinks and I am possess'd with an utter detestation of the Sex Go but one Circuit with the Judges here in England observe how many Women are condemn'd for killing their Bastard Children and tell me if you think their Cruelties can be equal'd or whether you think those who commit such Actions fit for your or for any Civil Conversation But I see by your looks you are convinc'd I see you abandon your Cause and I shall cease to expose any farther a Sex of whose Patronage you seem already asham'd Here Misogynes left off and Phylogynes began to answer him But I must beg your pardon Sir said my Friend for my time is come and I must necessarily be gone The Devil you shall said I you wou'd engage me in a pretty Affair I promise a Lady a Defence of her Sex and you will make me send her a Satyr against it Truly my dear Friend said he I design'd to have told you all but 't is later than I thought and I have Business waits for me No Business said I can be so considerable to you as the satisfying a fair Lady is to me therefore sit down and bring me fairly off what you have told me already or you and I shall be Friends no longer After all Madam to tell you the truth tho' there is no great matter in this speech of Misogynes yet I can hardly believe he made it upon a sudden 't is possible tho' they two having discours'd the matter as they told us before might have provided themselves each with Arguments But supposing that I can scarce believe one man wou'd be suffer'd to talk so long without interruption at least I am sure some who we know were none of the Company But 't is possible that he who told me might leave out all that was spoke by others for brevity sake being as you see in haste If you are as apt to be mistaken in your Judgment of Things as of Looks reply'd Philogynes 't is no wonder you shou'd make such strange Conclusions Whatever seriousness you may see in my Face does not I 'll assure you proceed from any distrust of my Cause but an astonishment at what strange Arguments the Invention of man can suggest against the best things that are I say The Invention of man for I am far from believing you in earnest in this point I have too just an opinion of Misogynes to think he does any thing but put on this humour for a tryal of skill and I no more believe you a hater of Women for the Invective you have made against 'em than I believe Erasmus a lover of Folly for the Encomium he has writ upon it If you have therefore any thing more to urge forbear it not upon any suppos'd Conviction you see in my Countenance for notwithstanding that I think you have handled the Subject as fully as any one who has undertaken it yet I 'll assure you I cannot submit to your Arguments and therefore am very ready to hear any thing you have further to urge No says Misogynes I am sensible I have troubled the Company long enough about a trifle and 't is very fit you shou'd have your turn of speaking now Part of the Company was already convinc'd by his Arguments the other part thought he had said as much as the matter wou'd bear and therefore both agreed in desiring Philogynes to speak what he had to say which he did in this manner I confess Sir said he smiling when I saw the Associates you allotted me at first I began to despair of my Cause I own I was asham'd of my Company and resolv'd to pack up Baggage instantly and quit a Trade in which none but Fops and Fools were engag'd but when I saw the Anacreons the O●ids and all the Wits Antient and Modern in the same circumstances I e●en took Heart again Courage said I the Business is not so bad as I thought and 〈◊〉 possible his Heart may relent and allow us some better Company than he condemn'd us to at first At least thought I if 't is a Folly to converse with Women 't is some comfort that he owns it to be a Folly
own profession and that when we had this Character of her she was not above Thirty years of Age. What think you Sir is not this Woman sufficient of her self Or shall we refer you to Mademoiselle Gournay among the French or Lucretia Marinella among the Italians who have both writ in defence of their Sex and who are both Arguments themselves of the Excellency of it I shall not as much as mention any of those Ladies whose Wit Balzac and Voiture so much admire I shall say nothing of the Mesdemoselles Scuderie and Le Fevre to the first of which we do not only owe several excellent Treatises publish'd under her own name but who is said also to have had a great share in those that appear under her Brother 's and to the latter of which we are oblig'd for so many admirable Versions and judicious Observations upon most of the Greek and Latin Poets I shall not as much as trouble you with our own Country Women I shall say nothing of Sir Thomas More 's Daughters about whose Education Erasmus has written I shall pass by Sir Nicolas Bacon's who were as learned as they shall say nothing of Sir Philip Sidney's Lady Pembroke nor as much as mention Mrs. Philips or any of the rest of our English Poetesses but I can hardly forbear saying something of the Lady Iane Gray of whom all Nations else speak and whose Fame is more celebrated in Italy both for her Learning and Piety by the account that Michael Angelo has given 'em of her than it is here at home Should I reckon up all those Ladies whose Wit and Learning has been Celebrated by our own Poets should I but enter upon the praises of Queen Elizabeth of England or Mary of Scotland in that particular● I should never have done But I can hardly omit two Ladies who are strangers and however I am straitned for room yet methinks I ought to be just to those who were civil to me since therefore I received particular favours from the Procurator Cornara during my stay at Venice let me not pass over in silence his Daughter for whom most of the greatest Princes and Learned Men of Europe have testified such an esteem This Lady besides her Skill in Rhetorick Logick Musick and Astronomy writ and spoke perfectly well Seven several Languages and made the course of all the Speculative Sciences with so much success that She might very well profess her self a Mistress of 'em and all this before she was thirty Years of Age. Her Sister whom I had the honour to see she her self being dead some time before is likewise a Person of very singular Endowments and all this whilst they are one of the best Families of a Town where the Nobility seem almost as proud of their Ignorance as their Liberty The other I shall mention is Christina Queen of Sueden a Princess whose Accomplishments are so generally known that it is enough to have named her a Lady of that true Judgment that she knew how to esteem Wit and Learning at the same time that she despis'd Crowns and seem'd to be Born as a sufficient recompence to the Common-wealth of Letters for all the mischiefs her Predecessors the Goths and Vandals had done it before I am satisfy'd it is impossible for me to add any thing to a Glory so establisht as that of this Princess is yet as I never past any time either with greater benefit or greater satisfaction than what I past in her Conversation so I am very well pleas'd methinks with any thing that gives me occasion to call it to my remembrance There might be as advantageous Characters perhaps given of some Ladies of our own Country now living did not their Modesty that inseparable Quality of Wit and Women deter me from it We might tell you further Sir that this Modesty too often hinders 'em from making their Vertues known That they are not of those eternal Scrib●ers who are continually plagueing the World with their Works and that it ●s not the Vanity of getting a Name which several of the greatest men of the World have own'd to be the Cause of their writing that is the Cause of the Womens Had not Sappho been so much in Love 't is possible we had never heard any mention of one of the greatest Wits that ever was born had not Cicero and Quintilian given us accounts of Cornelia and the Daughters of L●lius and Hortensius they had never done it themselves had not Iane Gray been put to Death her Vertues had never been so much taken notice of Had not the Portugueze Nun been deserted by her Gallant we had mist some of the most passionate Letters that these latter Ag●s have produc'd and had not Anna Maria Schurman's Works been publish'd by a Friend without her consent we had lost the benefit of ' em We may tell you too that ' t●● no● only in respect of their own Sex that they are admir'd but even of ours That of those two Odes we have yet of Sappho we owe one to Dionys●us Halicarnassaeus the other to Longin the two best Criticks of Greece who cho●● 'em out for Examples to their Rules before any of the Mens That the Epistle of Sappho to Phaon which is esteem'd the most delicate of Ovid 's is supposed to be taken out of her Writings That Corinna was five times victorious over Pindar the best Ly●ick Po●● of our Sex And were we here in England as forward in Printing Lette●s as they are in France and Italy we might furnish Volumes of 'em written by ou● own Ladies that wou'd make all the Women-haters blush or make all Men else blush for ' em Here Madam I must own to you I grew je●lous for I cou'd no● imagine that Philogynes wou'd have said this withou● having seen some of your Ladys●ips Letters We may tell you too that granting the equal Capacities of both Sexes 't is a greater wonder to find one Learned Woman than a hundred Learned Men considering the difference of their Educations If you shou'd go into Greece and seeing the ignorance is amongst 'em at present tell 'em their Country men were incapable of Learning wou'd you not be very well satisfied when they told you of the Plato's and Aristotle's of Antiquity And that if they had not as Famous Men now it was because they have not the same Advantages they had then And pray why may not the Women be allow'd the same excuse Will you by all your Laws and Customs endeavour to keep 'em ignorant and then blame 'em for being so And forbid all Men of Sense keeping 'em Company as you do and yet be angry with them for keeping Company with Fools Consider what Time and Charge is spent to make Men fit for somewhat Eight or Nine Years at School Six or Seven Years at the University Four or Five Years in Travel and after all this are they not almost all Fops Clowns Dunces o● Pedants I