hath sent euen in these our daies that excellēt Man Erasmus Roterodamus who with much eloquence prudence and modestie in manie of his workes discouering the vices and deceipts of the Romans Court and in generall of all the Persons Ecclesiasticall a man would haue thought it had bin ynough to haue mooued all such as in that calling liued so wickedly to haue amended for very shame of those thinges were spoken of them But when this would nothing profite them but that their wickednesse rather daily more and more encreased God sought a new meane to conuert them and therefore permitted that Frier Martin Luther to rise vp who should not onely vtterlie shame them declaring without any respect all their vices but should also draw a number of people from the obedience of these prelats to the end that such as would not be mooued with shame might at least for coueteousnes of their worldly wealth be reformed seeing how much yee should loose by the reuolt of Almanie or for ambition seeing how great a Seignorie yee should part withal if Almanie should fall from your obediēce in sort as presently it doth Arch. But that Friar hath not onely spoken euil of vs but also of God in a thousand heresies that he hath written Latt You say the truth but if your selues had not first amended that which with great reason he reprooued and not irritated him farther with your excommunications perhaps hee neuer would haue broken out into those heresies which afterwards he wrote nether should yee haue had in Germanie so great a distruction of soules and bodies as since by meanes therof hath happened Arch. But stay sir this could not be remedied without a coūcel general they say it was not fit at that time to cal a councell for that it had bin a manifest betraying of all the ecclesiastical persons so as if at that time we should haue called a general coūcel we might haue gone al to the Hospital the Pope too with vs for company Latt How so Arch. The whole states of the Empire presented certaine wrongs which they said they receaued of the apostolik Sea of many persōs ecclesiastical in euery point they required redres Latt And why then did you not redresse them Arch. Therabout we went but they alledged that seeing the rents of the church were giuen and appointed for reliefe and succour of the poore that they should bee spent that way and not in warres nor in vices nor in pride as at this day for the most part they are And then they farther desired that the people and not the clergie should haue the administration of them And then they desired that no dispensation should be giuen for money alledging that aswell the poore were the Children of God as the ritch and that giuing dispensations for money the Poore who in reason should be most priueledged were most oppressed and the Ritch contrariwise most priueledged Latt And were not you in that as I haue often bene and still am astonished in such sort as I know not what to say I see on the one side that Christ praiseth pouerty and inuiteth vs with his most perfect example thereunto but on the other side I see wee can scarsly get any thing of his Ministers but for money at Baptisme money at Bishoping money at Mariage money at Holy Orders money for Confession money for discharge of Excommunications money no not Extreame Vnction without money they will ring no Bels without money no Buriall in the Church without money no hearing of Masse in times of Interdiction without money So that it seemeth by them that Paradize is shut vp from them that haue no money Then what meaneth this that the Ritche is buried in the Church and the poore in the Church yard If Christ had meant that his Church should haue bin more partiall to the Ritch then to the Poore why doth hee councell vs to pouertie The Ritch man may marrie with his neerest kin but the poore not so albeit he be readie to die for loue of her The Ritch may eate flesh in Lent but the poore may not albeit Fish perhaps be much dearer The ritch man readily getteth large indulgences but the poore none because hee wanteth money to pay for them And of this manner yee shall finde an infinite number of other thinges and you shall not want of them that will alledge manie things to be done for the seruice of God as to found Churches and Monasteries to say many Masses manie Trentals and to buye many Tapers to burne vpon your Sepulture Iesus Christ doth councell mee to dispise and leaue all these worldly thinges to follow him and thou dost councel me to seeke them You should do me a verie great pleasure to shew me the reason they can alledge for it for as God shall saue mee I neither know nor can conceaue anie Arch. In good faith yee are now climing a good Tree but heare you I neuer brake my Braine about these matters that could yeeld mee no profite Latt Now wel mought you thee I pray God Arch. Besides all this they said that when vnto the Clergie these liberties and Immunities were first giuen which yet they hold they were then poore imparted that they had with others that were in want more then themselues but now they are much more ritch then their founders and that it seemed neither honest nor reasonable that the poorer sort of the people should be burdened with impositions when the Cleargie vpon whom they spent all should be exempted They said also that they had so many feasts dayes to obserue that workemen and labourers receiued great preiudice thereby and that by proofe it was seene that men vpon those daies did not exercise themselues in such matters as they ought but in other matters much worse then vpon other daies so that it were conuenient also to haue some moderation of these holy dayes Latt And what do you thinke that they spake amisse therein Arch. And will you defend them to Doe you not see that those Saints whose feasts you would abolish would be offended and thereby some great ill might happen vnto vs. Latt Yea but doe not you see that those Saints haue much more cause to be offended with the vices and villanies committed vpon those festiuall dayes then if men did onely worke for their liuing Surely if men did truely serue God vpon these festiuall dayes I would wish euery day festiuall but seeing this is not doone I cannot hold it ill that they were moderated if a man play the drunkard or play all day at Boules or at Dice or wander about women or other like villanies we thinke we haue not broken the feast But if another forced by extreame necessitie worke to get his meate presently they say this is an heretike I cannot skill of these seruices it greeueth men to see ritch men vpon these dayes to take all their pleasures and to laye the whole burthen on the
ill enformed and in my iudgement it is not reason but passion for that you haue lost that causeth you to vtter the same which you haue spoken I wil not speake passionately as you haue done for so should we spend speech without any Frute But without affectionate speeches I hope trusting in your discretiō good iudgement that before you part from me you shall plainlie vnderstand how much you haue bin deceaued in all that you haue yet saied onely I request you to be attentiue and not to forbeare to replie when you see cause to the end you may not rest in any doubt Arch. Say what you wil but I wil hold you for a greater Orator then Tullius if you be able to defend this cause Latt Nay I am content you shal accompt me the veriest idiot that is in the whole world if I defend it not and prooue my opinion to you with most cleere and euidēt reasons And the first thing I will prooue shall bee how the Emperoure was in no fauit for that which happened at Rome And secondly how all that happened ther came to passe by the manifest iust iudgement of God to correct and chastice that Citie wherein to the great slaunder of Christian Religion raigned al those vices that the wickednes of man could inuent and with that correction to awake the christian people to the end that those euils being remedied we might open our eies and liue like Christians seeing wee glorie so much in that name Arch. A great enterprise you haue taken in hand but how you wil goe through with it I see not Latt Concerning the first I must protest vnto you that no one thing of that which hereafter shal be said is by mee spoken in preiudice of the dignitie or person of the Pope For it is great reason that his dignitie be reuerenced of all men and touching his owne person surely I can speake no ill if I would Besides that it is well knowen that all which hee hath done hath not passed by his owne meanes but by meanes of the lewdnesse of some persons that he keepes about him And to the end that we the better vnderstād one another seeing this difference is betweene the Pope and the Emperour I pray you first declare vnto me what office that of the Popes is and likewise what is the office of the Emperour and to what ende or purpose these Dignities were first established Arch. It seemeth vnto me that the office or dutie of the Emperour is to defende his Subiectes and to maintaine them in great Peace and Iustice fauouring the good and chastising the ill Latt You say well but what is then that of the Pope Arch. That is more hard to declare for if wee behold the time of S. Peter it is one and in these daies another Latt But when I demaunde of you to what ende these dignities were ordeined it is ment that you should declare vnto mee their intention that did ordaine them Arch. Surely it seemes vnto mee it was ordeined to th ende this high Bishop should take on him the Aucthoritie to expounde the holie scriptures and to the end hee should enstruct the people in Christian doctrine not onely with woords but also with example of life and to the ende he should with teares and praiers make supplication continuallie vnto God for his Christian people and to take on him the supreame charge and power to absolue such as had sinned were desirous to conuert themselues to pronounce damnation against such as in their wicked liues remaine obstinate And to the ende that with continuall carefull endeuour hee should procure the maintenance of the Christian people in great peace and concord and to the end wee should haue here on earth such a one as should truelie and liuely represent vnto vs the life and holie custome of Iesus Christ our Redemer because the hartes of men are much more allured with workes then with words This is as much as I can gather out of the holie Scriptures if you haue anie thing else say it Latt This shall suffice at this present and see that you forget it not for we shall haue need thereof hereafter in his due time Arch. No I will not Latt Then if I shew you plainlie that because the Emperour hath done that which your selfe haue auerred to be his dutie And because the Pope hath refused to do that which on his part ought to haue bin done This distruction of Rome hath followed In whom will you then lay the fault Arch. If you could do this which I cannot beleeue then is it plaine to be the Popes fault Latt Then I pray you tel me your selfe seeing you say that the Pope was instituted to the ende hee should imitate Iesus Christ what do you think that Iesus Christ would rather maintaine his people in peace or to stir them vp and tormoile them in warres Arch. This is cleere that the Aucthor of Peace doth not detest any thing more then warre Latt Then let vs see how shall he bee the Imitator of Christ Iesu that stirred vp warres and dissolued peace Arch. Such an one should bee farre off from Imitation of Christ but to what end aske you mee this Latt I demaund it for this purpose that seeing the Emperor defending his Subiects as he is bound the Pope tooke armes against him and dissolued the peace and raised a new warre in Christendome neither the Emperour was in fault for the euils that succeeded seeing he did that which was his office and dutie Neither can the Pope be excused of the fault seeing hee did that he ought not haue doone in breaking the peace and raising a new warre in Christendome Arch. What peace did the Pope dissolue or what warre did he raise vp in Christendome Latt He dissolued the peace that the Emperour had made with the French king and hath stirred vp the warre which wee still haue whereby through the iust iudgement of God the mischeefe came vpon him which he hath receiued Arch. Oh Sir you make your account well but where haue you learned that the pope stirred vp the warre with the Emperour and that hee dissolued the peace made with the Frenche King Latt Because immediatly so soone as the French King was deliuered out of Prison he sent him a writte wherein he did absolue him of the othe which he had made vnto the Emperour to the end he should not be bound to accomplish that which hee had promised whereby more freelye hee might make warre vpon him Arch. But how knowe you this you speake as though you had bin of the Popes secret Councell Latt It is knowne by manie meanes but not to loose time looke vpon the beginning of the league that the Pope made with the Frenche king and you shall plainelie see that the Pope was the aduancer of it and seeing that this is so certaine a truth that euen the Pope himselfe confesseth it dooth it seeme vnto you
would haue mainteined frendship with the Emperour what should his Maiestie haue needed to haue kept an armie in Italie seeing he had so lately giuen commaundement to discharge it but when he vnderstood of the league made against him he was then constrained to continue it if the Pope pretended nothing but the libertie restitution of the Duke of Millane and to free that state of the vexations of the Emperours Army and to assure the Church landes Why did hee not embrace the Emperours friendship by the which all might haue bin remedied seeing the same was also desired at his hands if the Pope had desired no more then you speake of what fault had the kingdome of Naples committed that they should deuide it among them what had the cities of Genua and Sena committed that the one by sea and the other by land should be besieged he would pretend to remedy the extorsions and spoils of the armie in Lumbardie and yet indeed not onely encreased them there but gaue occasion to make them far greatter through all Italie yea euen throughout all Christendome Read the league made between the Pope the K. of France the Venetians the Florentines and there shal you see euen that which the Pope sought what had the Emperour done vnto him why hee should take Armes against him Arch. Did I not tell you that the Pope did not take Armes against the Emperor but onely against his vnbrideled Armie Latt So that this war then was onely against the Armie Arch. No otherwise Lat. Why then if the war were vpon the Armie the Armie haue reuenged it self wherfore lay you the fault in the Emperor Arch. Because the Emperor did sustein them sent them new supplie wherwith they might be able to do that they haue done Latt Did not your selfe say that the Emperors office dutie was to defend his Subiects and to do iustice If the Pope then would misuse them and seeke to possesse his kingdoms and seignories and to hinder him from doing Iustice vppon the Duke of Millan as he was bound of force hee was constrained to maintein encrease his army to be able to defend and relieue them or els in leauing to do so he should haue left to be a good Emperor Arch. In this you haue reason but I pray you tell mee do you thinke it was wel done of the Emperor to send Don Hugo and the Colloneses to make that attempt on Rome Latt The Emperor neuer did it Arch. What did not the Emperour giue commaundement that Don Hugo and the Collonesi together should iointly enter Rome and apprehend the Pope Latt No he did it not but if hee had done it do you thinke it had bin ill done Arch. Oh my God And would you take vppon you to defend that too Latt Yea surely and tel me I pray you if your selfe had a Father that had so far lost his wits and senses that with his owne hands would goe about to kill and teare his owne children what would you do Arch. Hauing no other remedie I would either shut him vp or bind his hands till he returned to his wits againe Latt And should you not thinke that for your brothers sake also it were your dutie and charge so to do Arch. Yes surely it is plaine I ought to take care and charge also of them Latt Then tell mee the Pope is hee not a spiritual Father of all Christians Arch. Yea. La. Then if he with wars go about to destroy his owne Children do you not thinke it shal be a good merciful deed aswel towards him as also towardes his Children to endeuor to take away from him the power to do this harme you cannot denie me this Arc. Wel but al this while see you not how great damage dishonor done to Iesus Christ to handle in this maner his Vickar Latt Nay rather there is done vnto him great seruice by auoiding this ill that his Vickar through the bad councel that he kepes about him should not be the cause of the destructiō of such a multitude of people for whom Iesus Christ died aswel as for him and belieue me euen the Pope himselfe when laying aside his passions he shal com to a right knowledge of the truth will be excedingly wel pleased with it that hath taken away from him that meanes wherby he might otherwise haue done so great an harme if not I pray you tell me if your selfe which God forbid should be so far out of your wits as that with your own teeth you should bite and teare your owne flesh and members of your own body would you not be singular wel pleased with him hold your self much bound vnto him that should hold and stay you till you came to your wits againe Arch. This is cleere Lat. Then behold how all wee Christians are members of Iesus Christ and haue for our head the same Iesus Christ Arch. You say truth Latt Then if this his Vickar by the bad councell he hath about him be the occasion of the perdition and murder of his own proper members which are the Christians shall he not bee singularly well pleased with him that shall hinder and let him from doing so great an euill Arch. Without doubt you say the truth but euery man cannot attaine this vnderstanding nor can iudge a right farther then they can see and therefore Princes should be very wary what they do Latt Much more are the Princes bound vnto God then vnto men more regard should they haue of the iudgement of wise men then of fools It were a goodly matter that a Prince should leaue to do the dutie which he oweth for the seruice of God and welfare of his countrie for feare of that which the blinde multitude should iudge or speake Let a Prince do that he ought and let the multitude prate what they list for so they iudged of Dauid because he daunced before the Arke of the Testament So they iudged of Iesus Christ because he died vppon the Crosse when they said he saued others but could not saue himself euen so they iudged of the Apostles because they preached Christ Iesus euen so they iudge in these daies of those which endeuor to become true Christians indeed dispising the vanity of this world and follow the right path of the truth And who is there that can escape the false iudgements of the common people Rather wee should thinke that verie good which of the multitude is condemned for bad and contrariwise But wil you know the truth Mallice and craft they call industrie Auarice and Ambicion they cal Magnanimitie the slaunderous Backbiter a good Companion a vaine dissembling Liar they term a gallant Courtier the subtle deceauer they call a wise man and contrariwise a good and vertuous man is called simple If any man in christian humility make smal accompt of this Worldes vanitie they say he is become a foole Such a one as for Gods sake distributes his goods
conuert you and therfore permitted those Souldiers that sacked Rome with Don Hugo and also that the Collonesi should make that assault whereof your selfe now complaine for seeing that all were now become shamelesse and the behauiour and course of life they all held he sought to make them doe that for feare of loosing their liues which for feare of destroying their soules they would not do And God seeing that there was no other way left to deliuer his Children from perdition he hath done with you euen as your selfe said you would haue done with the Scholemaister of the Children which should infect them with his vices and would not amend Arch. It may bee as you say but what had the image committed what offences had the Reliques done or the dignities or the honest and good people which were also robbed and ill intreated Latt I pray you report me the matter euen as it passed seeing you were there present and I will tell you the cause as I thinke why God permitted euerie of those thinges that yee shall trulie recompt vnto me Arch. Great reason yee haue surely in all this that you haue said I shal with a verie good will do that you haue required and heare whatsoeuer you wil say with a much better You are therefore to know that the Emperours Armie hauing left their Artillerie at Sena which was but a small quantitie with the greatest speed that euer was heard of marched euen to Rome and arriued there the fifth of May. Latt But what was the reason the Pope sent not to require some communication Arch. Nay the good Duke of Burbone sent to desire of the Pope that he would send some person with whom he might treat vpon his entrance into Rome But the Pope relying vppon his new league that he had made and the Armie of the leaguers hauing promised to come to his succors hee would not enter into any manner of communication And when the Armie knew this the very next day in the morning they resolued to assault the Citie And such was our ill fortune that euen at the beginning and within the Towne one with an Harquebuze happened to kill the good Duke of Burbone whose death was the cause of much ill Latt Surely it euen breakes my hart to heare of so vnhappy a death Arch. Our sinnes was the cause for if he had liued there had not bin so much mischiefe done Latt Now would to God you had not had those faultes but who euer heard that the sinnes of a Citie should cause their destruction that came to assaile them Arch. In this matter it may bee well said for the Duke of Burbone came not to conquere vs but to defende vs from his owne armie hee came not to sacke vs but to keepe vs that wee should not be sacked It is wee that had most cause to lament his death for himselfe there is no man but rather doth enuy him then pitie him for he lost his life with the greatest honor that euer did man by his death atteined that which a number of great Captains were neuer able to atteine so that the verie memorie of him wil be alwaies most honorable onely one thing greeueth me that is the peril of his soule dying excommunicate Latt And why excommunicate Arch. Because hee entred with an armed hand into the territories of the Church and sought to assaile the holy citie of Rome Latt Do you know what one decree saith to wit that manie are excommunicate by the Pope that are not excommunicate by God neither doth the Pope entend that he should be excommunicat that remaineth within the terrritories of the Church with intention to defend them and in al that he can to prouide that they should not receaue any damage as this Prince did Arch. Yee say truth neuerthelesse his first motion was voluntarie Latt Of this your selfe before verie wel declared the cause for hee was bound to defend the kingdome of Naples beeing by the Emperor made his lieftenant generall for all Italie neither went he to possesse the landes of the Church but to prohibite the Pope that he should not possesse the landes territories of the Emperour and to bring him to some vnitie and concord with his Maiestie Arch. Well let that be so but to returne to our purpose The Emperors armie was so desirous to enter Rome some to robbe and spoile others for the extreame hatred they bare to that court of Rome and some both for the one and the other cause that the Spaniards and Italians on the one side by scale And the Almanes on the other side by Pickaxes breaking downe the wall entred by the Burge on which side stands as you know the Church of Saint Peeter and the holy Pallace Latt Yea and a great manie of verie good houses of Cardinals Of one thing I verie much maruell that they within hauing Artillerie and those without hauing none how it was possible for them so easily to enter without the slaughter of an hundred onely of themselues But of you how many were slaine Arch. Sir you know how vncerteine reportes are alwaies in such like matters Some say Sixe thousand men but in truth there died not vpon the entrie aboue four thousand for imediatly they retired themselues into the Cittie and I tell you truth I should haue deemed this a verie great miracle if afterwarde I had not seene the same souldiers haue done that they did wherby I cannot beleeue that God would do so great a miracle for them Latt You are much deceaued for God did not this miracle for them but to punish and correct you Arch. Therein I beleeue you say the verie truth Latt I woonder after their Generall was slaine that they were not dismaied as commonly men are and so did not leaue the fight Arch. So was it surely but the death of this Generall inflamed them more and encreased their desire to enter the citie with greater furie then before Latt Yee tell mee woonders Arch. Surely so it was and this good duke of Burbone was so beleeued of all that euerie man desired himselfe to die or to reuenge the death of him Latt And therefore it was he me thinks that was cause of all that crueltie Arch. It is most likely to be so Lat. Oh mighty God how meruelous art thou in al thy works in each perticular how wonderfully discouerest thou thy power thou determinest that this good Duke should bee killed to the end that with the more rigor thy iustice should bee executed but let vs see where was the Pope all this while Arch. Euen in his owne Pallace and so carlesse that it was a woonder hee was not taken but seeing in how bad tearmes matters stood hee retired himselfe to the Castle of Saint Angelo with 13. Cardinals and other Bishops and principall persons which staied with him And presently the Ennemies entred and spoiled and sacked all that was in the Pallace and the like did they in
I trouble my head with these profound matters Latt And how profound which thinke you of greatest valew either the soule of some simple bodie or the body of a Saint Arch. This is out of question that a soule is much better then a body Latt Why then what reason haue you in seeking to honor the body of some saints as they say which perhaps notwithstanding is the boddy of some theefe to put in perrill so many soules Arch. You say the trueth and therefore may they very well thereof admonish the ignorant and simple sort Latt Very well and yet euen these that should admonish are many times themselues ignorant And yet besides all this why should you put any one soule in danger without necessitie Let vs see if you would in this Towne goe to our Ladies church of Prado and knew not the waye would you not thinke it a verye great inhumanity if any man would direct you through the Riuer with greate daunger to drowne you therein when you might more safelye and more quickelye haue gone ouer by the Bridge Arch. Yes surely Latt And wherefore then do you seeke after Reliques Arch. Because many times they stir me to deuotion Latt And deuotion to what end desire you Arch. To salue my soule Latt Seeing then you may saue your Soule without perill of damning it woulde you not rather choose the more safe waie Arch. Yes and our confessors also say it is a sinne for vs wittingly to put our selues in danger to sinne Latt They say therein the very truth Arch. But yet what way haue you of greater safetie Latt The same which Christ himselfe taught to loue God aboue all things and to put in him our whole trust Arch. You say the truth But because I cannot do that I go about to doe this other Latt This is a great heresie to say you cannot do it desire at least of God grace to doe it But if you will say you do request it and that God will not doe it you make God a lyar who saith Aske and you shall haue And farther what a blindnesse is this doe you thinke to goe to heauen without fulfilling of the commaundements of God albeit you haue an Arme of a Saint or the peece of the Crosse or the whole Crosse in your house you may be an enemie to the crosse and doe you thinke to saue your selfe by the Crosse Arch. Surely I was deceiued Latt Then behold the common sort haue so much more iust cause to complaine on them that lead them into these and such other like superstitions to put them in danger of their soules then you of him that should guide you through the riuer with danger to drowne you as the soule is more worthie then the bodie Arch. Well but yet the common sort are more easilye by things visible induced and directed to the inuisible Latt You say truely and therefore hath Iesus Christ left vs his holye sacrament of the Altar and hauing this I knowe not wherefore we haue need of any other Arch. And the true reliques indeed would you not haue them kept and garnished with Gold and Siluer Latt No surely Arch. Wherefore Latt Not to giue occasion of such another spoile as this of Rome nor yet to make men thinke that the Saints are pleased to possesse these things that those which are good men do glory to contemne Arch. You say well but doe you not see yet that the Saints may be offended with vs for taking away the Golde and siluer wherein their bones be inclosed and being so offended may doe vs some hurt Latt No rather I thinke they would be verie well pleased to see those thinges taken and imploied on the poore who many times perish for famin not hauing what to eate Arch. That vnderstand not I vnlesse you explaine your meaning better Latt I wil shew you plainly that Saint which whilest hee liued in this world and had need of these goods did neuerthelesse leaue them and empart them to the poore for the loue of Christ Iesu do you not beleeue that much more he would be pleased to haue the same done now after his death when he hath no cause at all to vse them Arch. Yes surely I think so for wee that be no Saintes yet when we die and cannot carrie our goods with vs wee are well pleased to giue them to the poore and to deuide them among Churches and Monasteries Lattan Why then tell mee wherefore should you thinke a Saint should bee greeued to haue that done with his goods now hee is dead which himselfe would haue done if he were aliue Arch. No surely I thinke a Saint would be verie wel pleased to see that done with his goods now he is dead which himselfe would haue done if he were aliue Latt Then you see plainly that the Saintes who while they liued were so wel pleased to distribute their owne goods among the poore would now much more bee pleased to helpe the poore with that siluer and gold which good people haue presented vnto them after they were dead Arch. So God saue me this reason is verie good and I beleeue you say herein also the verie truth and yet surely the common sort would be offended Lattan No on my faith I dare assure you there would bee no offence taken if it were prouided that such superstitious people as regarded more theire Bellye then the Glorie of Christ Iesus shoulde not goe aboute to prouoke them to offence Arch. Surely for this matter I hold my selfe fullie satisfied Lattan Thus you see how Iesus Christ hath suffred that in Rome so greate a Sacke and spoile should bee committed on Reliques to remedie the decâ—iptes that were committed by them Archde Well this I confesse so as you will also declare vnto mee touching the small reuerence vsed towardes the Images what the reason should bee that God would suffer that Latt That I will tell you neither will I denie that it was verie ill done but God hath permitted it not without verie great cause For you may see among the common people yea and euen among many of the principall persons also that they did so muche repose themselues vppon Images and thinges visible that they had no care at all of the inuisible In my Countrey a verie good Man a Deuine going a visitation of a Bishopricke in the behalfe of the Bishoppe founde in one Church an Image of our Ladie which they saide did manie Miracles and was set ouer against an Altar of the Sacrament in comparison whereof all Images in the Worlde are lesse then nothing And yet thereunto might you see them kneeling and knocking of their breastes before that Image of our Ladie The good man when hee saw so great an Ignominie as was thereby done to our Sauiour Iesus Christ conceiued so great a griefe as hee tooke away that Image and brake it into peeces The people so much were mooued with this act that they would haue killed him but GOD
Iames and S. George In liew of Neptune S. Elmas In liew of Bacchus S. Martine Insteed of Aeolus S. Barbola in liew of Venus Magedelena The charge of Esculapius we haue parted among many S. Cosme and S. Daman haue charge of common disceases S. Roque and S. Sebastian of the pestilence S. Lucie of the eyes S. Polonya of the teeth S. Aquida the Dugges and of the other side S. Antony and S. Aloy of Beasts S. Simon Iudas of false witnesses and S. Blas of those that neese I knowe not to what end these inuentions serue and this distribution of offices but to make vs appeare altogether Paynims to abandon the loue and trust which in Christ alone we ought to repose tormoiling our selues in seeking such helpe of others as he alone is able to giue vs and thereof it also commeth that some thinke because they recite a heape of Psalmes or a flocke of Rosarys others because they weare the habit of a Merced Others because they eate no flesh on wensdaies others because they are cloathed in Blew or yellow that thereby they want nothing of perfect Christians reteining neuerthelesse their enuie still their ranckor their auarice and their ambition and other vices as entirely as if they had neuer heard what it is to a Christian Arch. And whence proceeds this as you thinke Latt Naye enter me not into this Laborinth more perrilous I thinke then that of Creta let that alone for an other daye and tell me if in your opinion I haue accomplished as much as at the beginning I promised Arch. I say you haue performed it so fully that I hould all well emploied that I haue lost in Rome and all the troubles and trauailes I haue susteined in this iourney seeing I haue thereby gained such a day as this wherein me thinkes I haue shaken off from my selfe a pestiferous cloude of abhominable blindnesse and recouered the sight of the eyes of my vnderstanding which I had lost euer since I was borne Latt Seeing then you knowe this giue thankes vnto God and endeuour your selfe not to bee vngratefull for the same and considering you remaine satisfied of all doone there it were reason you did also recount vnto me that which passed at Rome vntill your departure Arch. That shall I doe with a verye good will you are to vnderstand that after the Armie entred into Rome they placed a Guarde on the Castell that none should passe out nor in and the Pope knowing the euident perrill he stood in and the small regarde those Souldiers had of him he determined to take some composition with the Emperours Captaines and therefore sent to parle with Iohn Bartlemew de Gateuera Regent of Naples and gaue him certaine conditions wherevpon he was contented to render himselfe to the end that on his parte he might offer them to the Captaines of the armie and although that in going too to procure this agreement he were shot throuh the Arme out of the Castell with an Harquebuze yet before the end of fiue dayes after the armie entred Rome the capitulation was concluded and signed on either parte Neuerthelesse in this meane time the Pope receiuing news how the armie of the legars came to aide him he would not haue that agreement executed Latt Now surely this me thinks was one of the most wicked things of all ye haue yet told me had not poore Rome already suffered enough for his sake but that he must endeuour vtterlye to destroye it If the Armie of the Legars should come it was to succour him it was cleere they must fight with our Army and thereby great slaughter must ensue on either side if then ours did vanquish the Pope and his partie should fall into greater perill but if these did conquere them must Rome be new sacked why then had it not beene better to haue taken any accord rather then hauing before seene so great mischiefe to be yet the cause of many more murders of people and of a new destruction Arch. Surely you haue great reason and much lesse inconueniences had it been to haue accepted any conclution then the damage that must haue ensued by he succour of the Leagers But so soone as the Emperours Armie knew of this they presentlye marched out of the Towne into the field with resolution to fight But the Legars durst not come of the Island where they had remained certaine dayes and the Castell still helde out hoping on that succour or at least that some discord might fall out in the Emperours Armie the Generall being dead But they ceased not all this while to make their Mines and trenches to winne the Castell yea albeit the Prince of Orange that then remained the cheefe commaunder were also hurt with a shot Then came Cardinall Collona with the Lords Vespasian and Ascaino Collonna and they did remedie some parte of the euils that were committed There came also the Viceroy of Naples and Don Hugo di Moncada and the Marquesse of Guasto and the Lord of Alorcan and many other commaunders and Knights with the Souldiers of the kingdome of Naples And although in the meane time there ceased not shooting from the Castell yet in the end the Pope vnderstanding that the Legars armye returned and that there was no hope to bee succoured from them hee accorded for to render vp the Castell into the Emperour his hands with these conditions that all the people within the Castell should goe freelye whether they woulde not taking anye thing that was within the Castell And for ransome of theyr persons and goods the Pope promised to giue 14. hundred thousand Duccats to pay the Souldiers Latt And howe so was it not inoughe that they had robbed before Arch. Yes sure it was enough but that mought not be reckoned any part of their paye And for securitie heereof the Pope gaue them in pledge that good Creature Iohn Marte Gibberto Bishop of Verona with three other Bishops and Iacob Salimato with other two Merchants of Florence And besides all this consented to leaue in the Emperours power till such time as they might knowe what his Maiestie would commaund the Castell Angelo and Ostia and Ciuita Vechia with the hauen and promised also to deliuer the Citties of Parma and Placentia and Modena And his Holinesse with the 13. Cardinals that were in the Castell went to the kingdom of Naples euen from thence to go see the Emperour Latt Surelye this was a good meane to doe some good in Christendome Arch. So was it but to tell you the trueth albeit they desired it should bee so reported because they thought it ill to hold the Pope and Colledge of Cardinals against their will they sayd it was their desire but in Conclusion they were gentill Prisoners Latt What say you then that himselfe desired not to goe to Naples Arch. Yes but all this was but to make a vertue of necessitie for seeing he sought to stay so many daies in hope of succour from
wil not passe by without speaking whosoeuer he bee Tell me Gentleman are you a brother to the Archdeacon of Viso Arch. What Segnior Lattantio haue you so soone forgotten mee it appeares Fortune quickly chaungeth mens knowledge Latt What say you now I see you are the Archdeacon himselfe indeede Arch. Yea sir to do you seruice Latt Who could know you comming as now you do you were woont to weare your garmentes one longer then another trailing on the ground your cappe after the Ecclesiasticall maner your seruants and reuerend Mule but now I see you on foot alone a short cote with a thred bare Frisado cape a great sword and a Souldiers hat besides all this a long beard and your haire and head without any signe of Crowne who could haue knowen you Arch. Who sir Euen he that knowes the habit by the man and not the man by the habit Latt Well if the memorie haue erred it is no reason good-will should paie for that fault which in me hath verie seldom diminished But tell mee as God helpe you sir how comes this chaunge Arch. What haue you not heard what hath happened at Rome lately Latt Yes I haue heard some thing but what concernes the busines of Rome the chaunge of your garmentes Arch. Seeing you aske that question it appeares you know not al for then you should haue knowen that ther is not in Rome a man that dare passe the streets in habit of an Ecclesiastical person Latt What tell you mee Arch. I tell you that when I came from Rome the persequution against the Clergie was so great that there was not a man that durst walke the streetes in habit of a Clarke or a Frier Latt O merueilous God how incomprehensible are thy Iudgements But sir I pray you were you within Rome at that time when the Emperours armie entred Arch. Yea for my sinnes I was found or rather lost there for of all that euer I had I haue nothing left but that you see Latt Wherfore did you not commit your selfe to the Spanish souldiours and thereby haue saued your goods Arch. My sinnes daunted my wittes and my vnhappie lot was to fall among the Almans where I thought it no little gaine to escape with life out of their handes Latt Is all true wee heare from thence and that men report here Arch. I know not what you heare nor what you say of it but I can assure you it was the most terrible thing that euer man saw I know not how you take it here it seemes to mee you make no great accompt of it But on my soule I know not whether God will so dissemble it and if wee were in some other place where it were lawfull for me to speake I would vtter foule and terrible matters with this mouth Latt Against whom Arch. Against him that hath done more mischiefe against the Church of God then euer Turke or Pagan durst haue done Latt But soft sir Archdeacon it may be that you are deceaued and lay the fault wher it is not between vs any thing may passe tell me therefore franckly your minde and I will so endeuour to open vnto you your error that you shall not blame him that is not blame worthie Arch. I am content to open plainly vnto you my mind in this matter but not here in the Market place let vs goe into this Church of S. Frauncis and there we wil discourse at our leisure Latt Agreed let it be so Arch. Now that we are where we may talke and none heare vs I pray you sir whatsoeuer passeth betweene vs let no other man be priuie of it for Princes are Princes and no wisedome for men to put themselues in perill where they neede not Latt Hereof you may be well assured Arch. Let vs then see Signior Lattantio doth it seeme vnto you a matter tollerable that the Emperour hath done in Rome that which neuer Infidels had done and that for his perticuler passion and to reuenge himselfe of I wat not what hath in such sort sought to distroy the Sea Apostolique with the greatest Ignominie and with greater Contempt and greater crueltie than euer was heard or seene I know that the Gothes tooke Rome but yet they medled not with the Church of S. Peeter they medled not with the Reliques of the Sainctes they medled not with the sacred and holie thinges But whereas those halfe Christians had this respect now our Christians albeit I know not whether they bee worthie of that name they haue not forborne Churches they haue not forborne Monasteries they haue not forborne the sacred thinges they haue violated all they haue robbed all they haue profaned all that I wonder the earth hath not opened and swallowed them vp those also that sent them or consented vnto it What thinke yee now will the Turkes the Moores the Iewes and the Lutherans say seeing the head of the Church thus handled O God that suffrest such a thing Oh God that consentest to so great a wickednes Was this the defence that the Apostolike Sea hoped from hir defendor was this the honor that Spaine hoped for of hir so mightie king was this the glorie was this the good was this the Amplification and enlargement that all Christendome hoped was it for this that his great Graundfathers got the title of Catholicke For this cause did they ioyne so many Kingdomes and Seignories vnto the rule of one Lord for this was hee elected Emperour for this did the Bishop of Rome helpe him to thrust out the French out of Italie To the end that in one day he should destroy al that their predecessors with so great trauels and in such a multitude of years had founded So many and such goodly churches such Monasteries such Hospitals and Chappels where God was woont to bee serued and honoured to be now defaced and profaned So manie Altars yea euen in the Church of the Prince of the Apostles embrued with bloud so many Reliques robbed and with sacrilegious handes profaned For this cause did their predecessors adioine so great holinesse to this cittie For this did they honor the Church with such and so many reliques For this did they bestow on them so many ritch ornamentes of Gold and Siluer that in the end hee should come without remorse to rob deface and destroy al Oh Soueraigne God is it possible that so great a crueltie so great an outrage so abhominable boldnes so horrible an accident and so execrable a wickednesse can passe without some most rigorous most grieuous and most notorious punishment I know not what feeling you haue here of it or if you haue any I merueile how ye can let it passe or dissemble it Latt I heare attentiuely all that you haue said and in truth albeit I heare the like vttered of that matter by manie yet mee thinkes you make it more foule and blame it more then any other and in all that you haue spoken it seems to me you are very
vnhappy Artificers labourers and poore men Arch. For all this that you haue said we make no great reckoning we rather looke to that we should lose in acquitting anye of our feast dayes Latt Whie what should you lose Arch. Our offerings which are made much more aboundantly on festiuall daies then vpon other They said also that there was of the Clergie many that liued very badlie and marryeng not yet kept they both women and children euen aswell and as openly as if they had wiues wherevpon ensued much offence and slaunder among the people wherefore they say it were better for them to marrie Latt Whie what should you lose Arch. Our offerings which are made much more aboundantly on festiuall dayes then vpon other They sayd also that there was of the Cleargie many that liued very badly and marryeng not yet kept they both women and children euen aswell and as openly as if they had wiues whervpon ensued much offence and slaunder among the people wherfore they saye it were better for them to marrie Latt And what cause haue you to dislike of that Arch. And haue we not cause of dislike from freemen to bee made bondmen Latt I rather thinke of slaues they would make you freemen for tell me is there in the world any greater bondage or slauerie then vnto sinne Arch. I thinke not Latt Why then your selues resting in sinne with these your Queanes do you not see that you are most shamefully the slaues of sinne And they discharge you of that slauerie that seeke to haue you married whereby you may liue honestlye with your lawfull wiues Arch. But doe not you see that if Clarkes should marry it would go ill with them and that they should lose much of theyr authoritie Latt And doe not you thinke it much worse they should be whoremongers and thereby lose more of their authoritie if I might see Clarkes liue chastly and that they would admit none to that dignitie but such as were at least 50. yeares of age as God saue me I would thinke it better they should not marry But among such a number of young priests that take orders rather for couetousnesse then for the loue of God in whom you see no signe of Christian modestie were it not much better for them to marrie Arch. But do you not see that if Clarkes should marry their children being not capable of inheritance they should either dye for want or must be forced to become theeues or their Fathers should be compelled to rob the Church of her liuing to bestowe it on their Sonnes whereby should growe two great inconueniences the one that we should encrease a number more of theeues and secondly that our Churches should be dispoiled Latt Both these inconueniences may easily be remedied if that you of the Clergie would labour to imitate the pouertie of them whose successors you pretend your selues to bee and that you would not be ashamed to bring vp your children in some honest occupations whereby they might get their liuing and so should they be also much better brought vp instructed in matters of faith whereby should ensue much good to the publique weale and so God helpe me it is a thing me thinks your selues should desire Arch. Desire quod you God forbid that euer that should come to passe for marke sir whereto we should then come if I marrie I must then of necessitie liue with my wife bee she good or bad foule or faire all daies of my life or hir life whereas now if shee that I keepe content me not to night I can leaue hir to morrow and take an other And besides all this if I list not to keepe a wench of mine owne all the prittie wenches in the world are ours or to speake more frankely and plainely you keepe and mainteine them and we enioy them Latt But what becomes then of your Soules Arch. O let that alone for God is mercifull I make my praiers and confesse me to God when I lie downe and when I rise againe I take no mans goods I owe no man any money I rob not by the high waies I murther no man I fast all those daies that the Church commaundeth there passeth not a daye that I heere not masse and doe you not thinke that all this is inough to make a man a Christian as for that other matter of women to conclude we are men and God is mercifull Latt You say truth but surely heerin you are much lesse then men I stand in great doubt whether God will be so mercifull as to pardon so many knaueries if you perseuere still in them Arch. Well we will leaue those matters when we are older Latt You doe well to iest with God but how are you assured to liue till the morrow Arch. Be you not so superstitious God hath pardon inough in store and see what you doe would you haue the constitutions of the Churche broken that hath continued so manye yeares Latt And whye not if so it bee conuenient for the publique weale of Christendome Arch. And shall the Church then seeme to haue erred so many yeares together Latt You are much awrie in your accoumpt for you shall see the church according to some one time dooth order things that in an other time againe it dooth annihilate Doe you not reade in the Acts of the Apostles that in the Councell of Ierusalem it was ordred that they should eate no bloud nor strangled beast Arch. Yea I haue read it Latt Why therefore doe you not yet obserue it Arch. I neuer set my wit on that place Latt Then will I tell you it was doone to satisfie the superstition of the Iewes albeit the Apostels knew it was not necessarie and therefore afterwards they derogated this constitution as a thing superstitious and yet it is not to be thought for this that the Councell did erre Then after the same manner what inconueniences should it be if that which the Church in one time for vrgent respects had ordered in an other should be for respects more vrgent abrogated And therefore me thinkes the same constitution should now also be abrogated and for truth I know no reason to the contrarie but onely that your selfe alledgeth it should not be for your owne benefit Arch. Well let vs leaue this now Latt Now therefore do you not thinke that it should be much better to redresse those thinges which you saye the Almanes did require and to amend your liues and seeing we do honor you so much as the Ministers of God to be so indeed and not to continue in your hardnesse and so not to be the occasion of great mischiefes as hath thereby happened Arch. If the Almans desire redresse in those matters the Church may prouide remedie when they see good Latt Well you see that for asmuch as you would not giue eare to the honest reprehensions of Erasmus neither yet to the dishonest rebukes of Luther God sought out an other kinde of meanes to
Church of stones wee should leaue to honor the Church of God which is our soule I would not that to build an altar we should forbeare to succour a poore bodie or to repaire tables or dead images we should leaue the poore naked which be the liuely images of Iesus Christ neither would I that we should lay so great a foundation on those things which we are not in any dutye bound to doe neither yet that we should giue men to vnderstand that the Lord is serued and pleased with the possession of these things that euery wiseman contemneth and holdeth a praise in himselfe not to esteeme Tell me whye did Iesus Christ contemne all the ritches and wealth of this world Arch. Because we should likewise by his example valew it as nothing Latt Why then do we seeke to present vnto him these things as matters very pretious and gratefull seeing himselfe we know contemned them and would also that we should contemne them and not rather take care to present our mindes and soules pure and cleere from all vices and sinnes this being the most pretious and acceptable offering that we can present Arch. I muse who should teach you so many arguments being yet so young Latt Then behold sir it hath pleased God therefore to suffer these churches to be thus robbed that we might euidently know that he esteemeth as nothing all such things as may be robbed neither yet dooth he esteeme any thing corruptible to the end that heereafter we may rather present vnto him liuing then dead temples And that we should offer vp vnto him hartes and wils before gold and siluer and that we serue him with such things as he commaundeth rather then with such vanitie Arch. Yea tell mee a thing that I neuer heard of but seeing it is so tell mee howe and wherewith wee ought to serue him Latt This is an other matter a part whereof we may conferre an other tune more at our good leisure but nowe I praye you proceed on Arch. Euen as you will but what will you saye that the very temples where God was woont to be serued and honoured were become stables for Horsses what a thing was it to see the verye Church of Saint Peter both on the one side and the other all full of Horses euen to thinke of it it breakes my harte Latt Certainelye it was a thing that no good man could like of and yet many times we see that necessitie causeth things that by the lawe is prohibited and in time of warre these and farre woorse matters are commonly doone whereof they are in fault that are the cause of the warre Arch. This is a gentle excuse Latt And why not and doe you not also thinke that hee that draweth a greater and woorse filthinesse then that into a place more holy then that dooth hee not commit a greater abhomination Arch. This is cleere Latt Then tell mee if you haue read the holy Scripture haue yee not founde in it that God dwelleth not in Temples builded with the handes of men and that euery man is that temple wherein God dwelleth Arch. Yes sometimes Latt Then tell me which should be the greater ill and abhomination to make a stable of those Temples of stone where the Apostle saith God dwelleth not or to make it of our soules which are the true temples of God Arch. This is cleere that of our soules were the woorse but how can that be Latt Demaunde you howe whye what call you a Stable Arch. A place where Beasts rest Latt But what call you Beasts Arch. Brute Beasts without reason Latt And are not vices brute and voide of reason Arch. Yes without doubt and much woorse then brute beasts Latt Thus is it manifest that it is farre greater abhomination to bring vices that are much woorse then brute Beasts into the Soule which is the true Temple where God dwelleth then to bring horses into a Church of stone Arch. Surely I thinke that true Latt Heereby may you now knowe how blinde your vnderstanding was in Rome that meeting daily by the streetes men that manifestly had their soules the stables of vices of that you made no accoumpt and because you sawe in case of necessitie horsses in the Church of Saint Peter you thought it an horrible abhomination and broke your hart to thinke on it And yet your harte was neuer broken to see such multitude of Soules full of such filthie and abhominable sinnes and God by whome they were made and redeemed banished out of them surely your religion is a gentle religion Arch. You haue great reason but yet consider I praye you that which Saint Paule spake that God dwelleth not in Temples made with handes of men was to be vnderstanded of that time wherein he spake it for since and now in our Temples the Sacrament abideth Latt You say truth but haue not you confessed vnto me that vices are woorse then beasts Arch. Yea and so I say still Latt Why then he that bringeth into the Church a heard of vices that are worse then Beasts is hee not worse then he that bringeth into the church a troope of Horsses Arch. It seemes so to me but these beasts are inuisible Latt What will you say that God cannot see mens vices Arch. Yes God can see them but men cannot but these horsses we may all see Latt By this reason ye would make it a lesse abhomination to offend God then men and then yee would excuse the offence committed in appearing before God so burdened with wickednesse because men see it not you aggrauate greatly the putting of Horses into the Church in that time of necessitie because they are visible vnto men But marke sir I pray you God is not offended with the bad sauors wherewith men are offended The Soule wherein vices are rooted that is it wherewith God is offended and therefore hee requireth that this soule bee most cleere of vices and sinnes and many times he hath so commaunded vs. And therefore yee take all things the wrong way ye take great care to keepe neate and cleane the materiall Temples and the true Temple of God which is your soules you keepe it so full of vices and abhominable sinnes that they neither see God nor know what thing he is Arch. Now as God saue me you haue the greatest reason in the world but if you had seene the Souldiers how they carried along the streetes the poore Nunnes taken out of their monasteries and other Virgins taken out of their Fathers houses you would haue had the greatest compassion in the world Latt This is a matter so common among Souldiers and men of warre that albeit in mine opinion it be indeed much more greeuous then all the rest ioyned together we make scarslie any accoumpt of it as if it were not worse to defile a Virgin which is the liuing temple where Iesus Christ dwelleth then a church of stone or wood wherefore the fault heereof must not onely bee laid to
the charge of those Souldiers but much more vnto you who began and raised this warre and were the cause that they haue done that they did verelye if the warre were cause of no other ill then this euen for this alone you ought to leaue it Arch. The Registers and Records of the Apostolike Chamber of the Buls and supplications and those of the Notaries and processe are all destroied and defaced Lattan Those I thinke surely God did permit that together with vice wee should giue ouer all sutes and pleas for matters Ecclesiasticall For seeing these benefices are exequuted by Clarks and the first chiefe charter of a Clarke should be charity how doth he hold charity that goeth to sute with his neighbor Arch. And why not Latt Because that charitie is of that nature that if it met with any of these suites it would rather loose the benefice then stand in controuersie with his neighbor Arch. This were verie perfection Lattan And so should all the Clergie bee men of such perfection Arch. All men cannot attaine to this perfection but I pray you whereupon should so manie Auditors Proctors Aduocats registers and other officers feed if there were no sutes pleas Lat. Let them be Tailors Waterbearers and Cowkeepers and not defrawd vs vtterly of all Christian charitie Arch. And this is a gentle charitie of yours that so honorable persons should take so base occupations but I pray you what should we do with the sutes alreadie commenced Latt Let the benefice be bestowed on the most worthy of them that are in sute for it or taken from them both and giuen to a more worthie and that could deserue it better Arch. By this meanes we should haue no Iustice Latt Yes much more Iustice for benefices should be bestowed on such persons as should do that they were ordeined for Arch. And now do they not their duties Latt No surely for these benefices are the goods of the poore and while you wast them in brables among Proctors and Doctors the poore die for want Arch. Ye haue manie indeed that spend their liuings that way and some much woorse as your selfe I know can be a good witnes But whom would you haue to be the Iudge of the sufficiency or insufficiency of Clarkes to giue or take from them their benefices Latt Euerie Bishop in his owne Dioces so as they would better examine and know the persons Arch. Well but yee haue many Bishops that haue not learning ynough nor knowledge to do this Latt And therein is there another sinne committed for such should not be admitted to be Bishops but other persons therto deputed that were able Arch. Will yee haue me tell you the truth euen that way too all would goe by fauour Latt Thinke not so there are a number of wise Bishops and men of good conscience and others would follow their example And in trueth I thinke this would bee the best remedie till there be some other more perfect reformation in the Church Arch. And for pleas that are vppon seculer matters what would you haue done Latt If I were a Prince I would either deuide it betweene them or giue it all to the woorthiest and honestest Arch. Do you not see that hereby you would peruert and ouerthrow all Iustice Lattan Will you haue me tell you my minde plainely God created all thinges for the vse and seruice of man but the administration thereof rather to one man then an other because they should bestow them where most neede was and it is good reason that such as haue impart with such as want And it is good Iustice that hee haue the administration of most that best knowes how to vse them and contrarie manifest iniustice Arch. By this meanes you would goe about to make a new world Latt No but I would establish the good and remooue the quite out of it Arch. So long might I liue till you had gone through with such an enterprise Latt God sende the Emperour Charles life and then shall you see whether he will goe through withal Arch. But tarrie for yet haue yee not heard all Neuer since the Emperours Armie entred Rome till the time that I departed which was the twelfth of Iune there was not a Masse said in Rome nor all that time heard we a bell Ring nor a Clocke Latt The bad became little better by hearing of Masse when they did it without deuotion or reuerence and the good would doo that in Spirite which they coulde not doo with their Body but how chaunceth the Priestes and Friers would saie no Masse Arch. By God and that is a gentle question Did not I tell you at the beginning there was not a Priest or Frier in Rome that durst shew himselfe in other garmentes then such of a Soldiers as I were Latt And why so Arch. Because the Almanes so soone as they saw a Frier or a Priest in the steetes they would giue the woord and crie out a Pope a Pope kill kill Latt As God shall helpe me I do now remember that when I was in Rome there were manie Prophesies that foretold of this persequution of the Clergy and that it should be euen in this Emperours time Arch. That is indeed most true Latt And why then would you not amend Arch. Why who would then haue beleeued that it should haue prooued true Latt That would any man that had well considered the state of all thinges at Rome Archd. But besides all this there was such an extreame stinke in all the Churches that no man could endure to tarrie in them Latt A stinke and whereof Arch. The Souldiers had opened many Sepultures hoping to haue found treasure in them but after they were opened they found nothing but the dead Carkasses Latt Was it not much that you suffered of that perfume in telling of the money that yee exacted for burying of the dead Arch. Now you are disposed to iest Latt No in good faith but I tell you truth that seeing you of the Clergie were not ashamed to take tribute of the dead a thing that euen among the Gentils was held most foule as litle should you haue lothed to haue entred to haue praied to God for them Arch. Well you thought yee had done but there remaineth yet woorse matter for you to resolue for I haue kept the woorst and most grieuous for the last Latt Well tell it me Arch. They left no Reliques vnsackt and spared not to take the Gold and Siluer with their sacrilegious handes wherewith those Reliques were couered that it was the most horrible abhomination in the world to see these Raskals to enter those places whereunto Bishops yea Cardinals yea the Popes themselues scarsly durst enter And to take those heads and armes of the Apostles and of the happie saintes I cannot imagin what good could grow vnto Christendome by such an abhominable boldnes and contempt Latt Surely it was in deede a foule action but I pray you tell me after