to wear his Crown at solemn Festivals and for some Bishop to put it on his head The Pope forbad the Bishops to serve the King in this Ceremony it seeming improper that persons of their dignity in the Church should so far communicate with a man deservedly lying under the censures of the Church as to contribute to his honor at the sacred Offices And this is all the Crown of which Ivo speaks and talks of restoring 'T was at most a matter of pure ceremony in which the Pope was not obey'd neither For Ivo himself writs that notwithstanding his commands to the contrary Bishops were found who performed that Office to the King But for the rest the Kings reign was neither interrupted nor disquieted France giving a very good example of the duty of subjects in that case when in the words of Paulus Aemilius they preserv'd inviolate the Majesty of a faulty Prince and yet themselves degenerated not from the holiness of their Ancestors I mention not his additional proof from Vignier because he had better have let him alone since Barclay has caught him tardy and shew'd that what Vignier says related to another Philip who liv'd a hundred years after this Philip of whom Bellarmin speaks And I conceive He might as well have let alone the Council of Clermont as Vignier for there is no proof that the King was depos'd by or in it To return now to Greg. 7. He says Bellarmin in a Synod at Rome publickly and solemnly and ceremoniously with the consent and applause of all present deposed and excommunicated the Emperor Henry 4. And to this Synod must be added 5 more held by his Successors at Beneventum by Victor 3 Piacenza by Vrban 2. Rome by Paschal 2. Colen by Gelasius 2. and Rhemes by Calistus 2. in which the sentence of Gregory 7 was confirmed Of these six if Jo. Barclay say true five are plainly nothing to the matter For there is not a word of deposition in any of them There is mention of Excommunication sometimes of the Emperor himself sometimes of the Anti-Pope set up by the Emperor and his complices but deposition not so much as once named Besides Henry 4. with whom Greg. 7. had to do was dead before the times of Gelasius and Calistus to make them renue the sentence of deposition given first by Greg. 7. is a great inadvertence 'T is true all his Successors kept up the quarrel about Lay-investitures and that occasioned all the Decrees he mentions and some more remembred by Schulkenius till Calistus with a wise and successful piety compos'd the difference And I think it cannot be imagined he should depose the Emperor with whom he treated and concluded Peace There remains only the fact of Greg. 7. himself and that indeed past in a Council but what share the Council had in it is something obscure I suspect he was more beholding to his Rhetorick for those flourishing additions of the consent and applause of all present then the warrant of any good authority For Platina says expresly there were some present so far from being fully satisfi'd that they urg'd a King was not to be excommunicated so soon And the Decree it self mentions neither consent nor privity of any besides the Pope whose act the stile makes it and that so entirely that were it not known by other means it could never be discovered by the sentence that there was any such thing as a Council then in being The truth is the Pope was smartly provoked For besides that he had been forcibly seized on even at the Altar and hurried into prison from whence he was the next day rescued by the people a Synod of Worms called by the Emperor had little better then deposed him first We denounce unto you say they that as we have promised no obedience to you so from henceforth we mean to pay none In consequence of this Decree one Roland a Clergyman of Parma was sent to Rome and there publickly forbad the Pope to act as Pope for the future and commanded the Cardinals to leave him and repair to the Emperor to receive another Pope Whether he had not begun with the Emperor is another question There are who think he had But however to be so sharply dealt with would make a man look about him And 't is clear this business at Worms hapned before his sentence at Rome where 't is very likely they might think they had as much power to to depose the Emperor as they in Germany to depose the Pope If I may be permitted to speak with freedom I should think this counter-authority of Councils one against another for it was not only Pope against Emperor but Council against Council is a more proper argument of human frailty then Catholick doctrine One may perceive that Princes never fall out but there will be partakers on both sides and that among those who are least liable to the suspition of being sway'd to injustice the wisest and gravest and of greatest dignity But how any thing should be efficaciously concluded from Councils which are opposed by other Councils as many as full consisting of persons the Pope excepted equal in dignity and reputation whether for learning or vertue is hard to conceive Tumult and Bitterness and Animosity are no very proper dispositions for the calm and gentle operations of the H. Spirit and such there were at that time or else the world was then a great deal more holy then now There was among them that would have caused passion among us and things were done by them which passionate people do with us where we see the fruits we cannot but suspect the Tree The Emperor for his part had the Pope to countenance the Saxons against him and by his spiritual authority counterpoise the weight of his arms This would vex a man of a high spirit ambitious of glory and impatient of contradiction unless he were a Saint which is not written of that Emperor On the other side the Pope had the Emperor averse to the liberality then intended and after brought to effect of the Countess Mathildis and unwilling so great an occasion should be made to the Church of lands to which if I mistake not the Emperor pretended He must be a very great Saint too if he could look upon the hopes of so great an advantage without passion and not be tempted to weaken a man whom he saw would cross him as much as he could These reasons for animosity among others there were and if they did not work they were the holyer men But I think no man is bound to believe that the pretences used in matters of great consequence are alwaies the true causes neither is it hard when people are resolved to fall out and set the best face they can each on his several side by some means or other to draw in the pretence of Religion which as it carries the fairest shew is generally nearest at hand But I rove too far with my fools
Scholars for they are sure enough that for his own sake He will not use his power against those who maintain his interest It may be too with Princes as with other men who to compass some end upon which they are passionately set at present value not a mischief much more considerable than the loss of their present pretences which is farther of If the Pope can assist either French or Spaniard the Divines of that King whose part he takes may say any thing freely and Stasemen who have little esteem of Shoolmen will think the Pope sufficiently over-reacht when for a few pleasing words they have got peradventure a Town or Province So that your Princes seem to be alwayes playing with the Pope at Vy Politics in which game they think their steel to his quils advantage enough though I should think the advantage is cleerly on the Pope's side for as he cannot make stakes he hazards nothing but if Trump ever turn of his suit he bids fair for all Defende me gladio ego te defendam calamo peradventure was no such unequal offer Besides they may possibly have the art to turn his credit to their advantage and make use of it to keep their Subjects more obedient and more in aw It may be they have some of them no better original Title to all or part of their dominions than his Authority and then a blind man may see what reason they have to uphold it It may be these it may be other reasons sway with them but whatever they are or may be I think 't is plainly hatching a serpent in their bosoms For let us suppose the Pope and a Catholic Prince at ods a thing so far from impossible that 't is not unusual 'T is in his power you 'l say to continue Catholic whether the Pope will or no and then He 's safe for he gives the Pope no hold it being only Heresie upon which he can fasten But is this true that nothing will do it but plain Heresie Has not Zecchius taught us that the Pope may deprive Princes of their Kingdoms as oft as they do any great hurt in the Church And will not the bad example of contrasting stubbornly with the supreme Pastor be interpreted a great hurt in the Church Has not Fransciscus Bozius informed us that by reason of the supreme Monarchy in all things temporal Laws may be made by the Church and Kingdoms taken away for just causes If we ask what these just causes are Santarellus answers That Princes may be punisht and depos'd not only for Heresie but for other causes for their faults if it be expedient Ant. Sant in Her Schis Apostas c. c. 30. 31. if Princes be negligent if their persons be insufficient if unuseful How few Princes are there who fall not under some of these qualifications or at least may not be judged to do so when the Pope and He their Enemy is to be Judge As certainly it were a crime greater than the greatest of these to seek the determination of these things from any else This negligence though stumbles me a little for it seems a general and something a captious word and I think it would be to the satisfaction of those who are concern'd if it were defined as soon as might be how many hours a day a King is to give audience that he may not pass for negligent But the man for my money is Thomas Bozius who tells us plainly That the Church the Spouse of Christ De Jure Stat. l. 1. c. 6. p. 6. and Queen of the world may as often as the order of the whole doth require c. transfer the proper rights of one to another as a secular Prince may cast down private mens houses for the beautifying the City or impose tribute for the weal public That he may thus justly do although he hath not erred from whom such rights are transferred to another so the Pope gave the Indians to the Spaniards 'T is an honest fellow this Bozius and cares not for mincing matters Give me the man that speaks out But what think you is Heresie the only unkinging crime when you see any great harm negligence insufficiency unusefulness will do it When innocence it self is no security and the best King of the world may be turn'd out of his Kingdom and that justly if another be thought able to govern more handsomely What handsome work will these Maxims one day make in the world if they be suffered to take deep root For my part I cannot see but Catholic Princes as secure as you make them are no less concern'd then Protestants to beware of them and weed them up quickly and effectually But is it so easie to scape the crime even of Heresie I doubt not and am filthily mistaken if this word Heresie have not as comprehensive a sense and be not of a nature as plyable as Popery amongst us and if managed with equal dexterity may not prove equally serviceable The late King was the honour of Protestant Religion and certainly had never a Subject more unmoveably fixt in it than himself And yet malice made him pass for a Papist at least inclin'd to Popery do what he could and by that imputation principally undid both him and the Kingdom Henry the third of France was possibly as hearty a Catholic yet all his industriously affected bigotteries his great beads and Friers weeds could never clear him from the stain of Heresie maliciously fixt upon him till he fell with a fate different from that of our glorious King in this that his Kingdom suffer'd more no longer his own end was more private being execrably murthered by a private Paricide whereas the barbarous injustice done to our King was heightned by the formalities of public justice So that as far I see Heresie is as dangerous as Popery with us and as hard to be avoided But let us consider a little Sancius has told us that it is to be held with a right Faith that the Principality of the Bishop of Rome is the true and only immediate Principality of the whole World c. If this be right L. 4. c. 1. p 319. the contrary sure is wrong Faith and wrong Faith I think is Heresie Thomas Bozius who never fails will tell us that Christ committed to St. Peter the Carrier of the keys of eternal life the right both of the Terrene and Celestial Empire as Pope Nicholas saith from whom we have it that he is without doubt an Heretic who taketh away the rights of the Terrene and Celestial Empire committed by Christ to the Church of Rome and saith it is lawful so to do and for that he shall be an Heretic in such his assertions P. 152. And Carrerius that the Bishop of Rome is the highest Father and Man of the world and the universal Vicar and Lord of the world and that all others depend upon him as their builder and that otherwise if one
should be Catholick enough sure and never boggle at any thing should be offer'd me But to leave Jeasting let me tell you though I know not how you will relish the Complement you write so well that you must needs write again I may possibly hereafter give you more trouble upon this Subject when these fluttering Fancies of mine are setled into a steady Judgement I know not how satisfactory your Answer may prove when I have fully examin'd it If it do not I reserve my self the liberty to tell you so and in the mean time conceive you could not chuse a more useful Argument then this of the Popes power He was a man famous for wisdom who E. Salisbury Treatise of mitigation p. 20. as I find cited in one of your own Authors was long troubled that some clear explication of the Papal Authority had not hitherto been made by some publick or definitive Sentente and this both that those Princes who acknowledge it may be secure from the fear and suspicions of continual Treasons and Attempts of Assasins and those Princes who do not acknowledge it and yet desire to think favourably of their Subjects may certainly know how far they may rely upon their fidelity in temporal matters who differ from them in what concerns their Conscience Consider besides what confusion what Wars and Bloodshed we find in History upon the contests betwixt the Spiritual and Temporal Power People distracted betwixt the fear of making Shipwrack of their Faith or their Fortunes know not how to avoid either Heresy on the one side or Rebellion on the other If the World were once well inform'd of the just bounds of those two Powers and knew wherein they consisted and how far they extended such contests would either not happen or if they did People would readily know which part to take However it be pray satisfie me at least in this particulars The sâ—â—â—stance of your Answer consists in this that the Doctrines I objected belong not to your Faith or Church But does not this belong to your Faith That the Pope is the Vicar of Christ upon Earth I think you would not take him for a Catholick who should deny it Now if Christ gave to the Pope the Power he had himself since He without doubt had all both Spiritual and Temporal Power how can you avoid being oblig'd and that by an Article of your Faith to acknowledge that the Pope likewise has all manner of Power and may justly and lawfully do all those things which your Letter calls the exorbitant fancies of private men This Friend exceeds the bounds of probable opinions and intrenches strongly on your Faith Wherefore you shall not deny either my friendship or importunity an Answer to it But answer so if possibly you can that these doubts or umbrages or what you perhaps may find a better name for then I can give a reason of may trouble me no longer Will you permit me to deal plainly with you I suspect you have said more then you are allow'd to say and more then I should be allow'd to hold if I were of your Communion The Jews ware not more zealous to make Proselytes then you are and what know I but you may have a design upon me and say more what you think may induce me to think favourably of your Religion then what your Religion gives you warrant to say Let me therefore intreat you to say nothing but what a good Catholick may unreprovably say and what I may be secure shall not be he disallow'd by your Church And since I can promise you no other fruit of your labour for I do not think you hope in earnest to make a Proselyte of me accept the assurance I give you that you shall at least firmly bind to your Service Yours c. FRIEND YOU know the power of your friendship over me and you make use of it For ought I see mine is just the case of handsome-handed Tom Fool whom that praise betray'd to so much labour that he complain'd his dexterity had almost cripled him Pray God my easiness or your importunity give me not one day more cause of complaint then he had But since you will not be deny'd 't is best to obey you without more a do For your unquietness I could laugh at it if its deeper root did not give me too much cause of grief As sincere as you are you are prejudic'd Friend and this unquitness of yours is the strugling betwixt reason which you plainly see and a passion so secret that 't is hid even from your self which hinders you from entertaining freely what you see Not but that I know your candour well and am enough perswaded you are not conscious of opposing reason wilfully and would be your Compurgator of sin against the Holy Ghost But thus it happens Ever since the change of Religion and the bad attempts of some Catholicks in the days of Queen Elizabeth heightned by the horrid Powder Treason it has been perhaps the direction of the State however the employment of Pulpits to give bad impressions of Catholicks and their Religion And this has been done so long and so universally and so vehemently that since you find the effect of it I may reasonably judge there is none who has not his share and who has not found an Idea of Catholicks more according to what they have been represented then what they are As the Nature and circumstances of men are different and some are fram'd to a sweet uprightness others to an unwayward crosness Again some converse much with good Catholicks some with bad ones some with none and who have no other knowledge of them but as they hear of strange animals in Afric or the Indies so men are differently affected towards them But I believe there is none who has not more or less of the bad Idea so much endeavour'd to be fixt upon them and that no hearty Protestant can hear things said to the advantage of Catholicks or their Religion without that unquietness at least which you find in your self It were to be wisht and perhaps expected from the Charity of Pulpits that the example of that wise and merciful King against whom that Treason was plotted might have been followed and the Innocent distinguisht from the Guilty But whatever might or should have been we see what is done and you find the effect in your self whereof that you may not think reason the cause consider a little that while we pass generally for ignorant stupid people led blindly into all the follies to which our blinder Guides our Priests conduct us you object craft and subtlety to me Reason Friend is more uniform and more of a piece and objects not so crosly For what you say of our Jewish zeal of gaining Proselytes I must avow to you I am of St. Pauls mind and wish non tantum se sed etiam omnes qui audiunt hodie fieri tales qualis ego sum exceptis vinculis
know not where to fix my jealousie I cannot say but the cause you assign may have had some influence upon me for to hear men spoken against perpetually and universally and not to think there is some fire to all that smoke is hardly possible Yet let me tell you I think you have no great reason to complain for if I mistake not you owe a good number of your Proselites to this very cause and believe that of those who come over to you far the greatest part have been wrought upon by this perswasion That you are ill represented When you truly are so as I cannot deny but sometimes you are 't is no hard matter for you to shew it to candid people whom nature has so disposed to favour persons wrongfully traduc'd that this bad Idea where of you complain makes you at last sufficient amends There is such a charm in injur'd Innocence that I am very confident it brings you in more Converts than all your Arguments If some be hardned others are gain'd and peradventure fair play were more for the Interest of both sides However it be I acknowledge I was my self something mistaken in you and not so well acquainted as I thought with your Religion where things I perceive go otherwise than I apprehended I thought there had been an Oraculous kind of lustre in this power of the Popes which had either dazled you into a blindness of not seeing ought against it or aw'd you into a fear of saying what you saw if you saw any thing and for ought I perceive you are as cleer sighted as other men and speak bold truths as freely I must confess we are a little out when we impute blindness to you at least I 'm sure you saw more in this particular than I. But hark you Friend while you discourse of one thing my thoughts insensibly carry me to another I begin to conceit this Tradition of yours which makes such a noise and passes for such a bugbear may prove less frightful than our apprehensions make it And I cannot tell whether the Pope has not as much reason to be jealous of it as Protestants For methinks if that be made the Test of Doctrines and nothing impos'd upon our belief but upon the warrant of the constantly conspiring attestation of all Ages This deposing power of the Popes which from its inconsistency with Civil government I so much abhorr'd must needs be excluded from the Articles of belief and Protestans eas'd of a great deal of pains in pulling down that which your own beloved Principle pulls down to their hands For ought I know it may do as good service upon other occasions however I avow to you I am more friends with it than ever I was and think Protestants have no reason to look unkindly upon a Principle which takes their part so much in a question of such importance I wish with all my heart it were lookt into more throughly for I mistake extreamly if it would not cut off a number of those things of which we complain and though peradventure it be no discretion to speak so freely to you reduce things to that pass that while you labour to bring us over to you That very instrument which you use to that purpose may force you over to us But rather than such a thing should happen I presume the Pope would disown it and after he has us'd it as long as it would serve his turn turn enemy to It as soon as he finds It turn enemy to him But to tell you truly I am something in a better humour for Tradition because you speak of Scripture with that reverence which is fit and which pleases me so much the more by how much the less I expected it from you For you know how ill you hear pardon the pedantry of the phrase for failing in the respect due to that sacred pledge of the Divine Love which the fear or rather consciousness how cleerly those undimmable lights would discover the abundance of tares you have sown amongst the wheat of the Gospel makes you shut up from the Vulgar and exclude from the Test and Judge of Controversies And after this to profess they are divinely inspir'd and that no other writings can be compar'd to them is a thing which pleases indeed but surprizes me too Do you forget or have you a mind to condemn your self For the Spirit of God must certainly be Gods best Interpreter and where that is to be had as in books divinely inspir'd the Divine Spirit must certaiâ—ly be to seek another Judge is to refuse him now by whom we must one day be judg'd whether we will or no and should do well not to provoke in the mean time by contempt To tell you my thoughts freely If you would give a little more to Scripture than you do and we to Tradition I think things might be better betwixt us For you pretend to hate Novelties as I am sure we do All our whole Reformation being nothing else but the rejecting what you have introduc'd Let us have but Gods Law pure as he gave it and free from the mixture of erroneous additions or diminutions and we have no more to desire And if I understand Tradition rightly and that it signifie what Vincentius Lirinensis has long since delivered for the test of Sound doctrine viz. what has been held ever and every where and by all methinks you should like Novelties no more than We for novelty and this cannot consist together and there needs no farther confutation of novelty but only to shew that 't is a Novelty Which if it be so in the name of God how fell we out We all know that Christ was our only Lawgiver and that upon the observation of the Law he gave us all our hopes of Salvation depend that since him there has been no new Law-maker and whoever teaches any doctrine contrary to what was taught by him is long since declar'd Anathema by the Apostle that profane Novelties are to be avoided and those who broach or abett them are in the words of the Psalmist wicked men who tell us stories but not as thy Law O God And while we both agree in this how is it possible we should disagree in ought and what magick is it which thus sets up Altar against Altar and divides the seamless coat of Christ In the darkness of Barbarism and Ignorance things might more easily be obtruded upon us but in an age shining with so much wit and learning and so cleer sighted in Antiquity methinks it is no such hard matter to find out at least which is the Novelty and then if Vincentius say true we know without more ado which is the Truth Seriously Friend I am at a strange loss and cannot possibly unriddle this Mystery But my zeal transports me and I have almost forgot what we were talking of To return to your Letter It is I must confess long enough yet I wish it had been
Iconoclast I value them not Thus then stood things in the vvorld when Hildebrand Archdeacon of the Church of Rome was chosen to the Papacy in the year 1083 and called Gregory the VIIth The Contests which in his daies began betwixt the Spiritual and Civil Power are the reason I suppose why he is so differently represented by those who vvrite of him His Enemies give him the Character of an Imperious Tyrannical and several waies Wicked Man his Friends on the other side praise him as much and affirm he was a man of great Prudence and Vertue and so far that it hath been attested by several Miracles And for my own part I must confess I incline to believe well of him For he had been the support of the Papacy during the time of several Popes his Parts and Industry having drawn upon him the greatest weight of all business and was so far from aspiring to that dignity that if Baronius say true He treated with the Emperour not to consent to his Election assuring him before hand that if he did He would be very severe against the Abuses practic'd in his Court. Besides if Sigonius may be believ'd and the passages he relates vvhich can hardly be read vvithout horrour the Emperour was a very Wicked Man but that which concerns this matter was That all Benefices were with all the Licentiousness of a depraved Court expos'd to sale and He that could Fee a Courtier was vvithout Merit or even Capacity possest of the most considerable Preferments of the Church As this vvas a mischief palpably destructive to all Goodness so 't is not incredible from the irregularity of a debauch'd Court. And if the Pope desir'd to have it remedied the end he propos'd was but what became him if the means had been so too I am the more inclin'd to believe this true because the Germans in a great measure took part with the Pope forct the Emperour to comply and after several Traverses at last took the Crown from him and plac'd it on his Son However it were the Emperour notwithstanding the Popes Remonstrances gives consent to the Election and confirms him and the Pope was as good as his word And first Excommunicates those who should receive Investitures of Benefices from Laymen afterwards the Laymen who should grant them and lastly provok'd by the Emperour who in a Synod at Wormes had forbidden Obedience to him Excommunicates and deposes the Emperour himself And this iâ— the first unquestionable Example of this kind which has appear'd in the Christian World Bellarmin indeed and his Followers would make us believe there are Examples more Ancient but in my opinion he proves them not well and you see Onuphrius counts them but Fables and those of that Age at least those vvho favoured the Emperour exclaim'd against it as a Novelty unheard of not to call it Heresie as one faies But though the thing were now done it appears not yet in vertue of what Power 't was done As that Age was not I think extraordinary subtle the distinctions of Direct and Indirect Power were not yet found out and the Pope himself speaks in common That the care of the Christian World and Authority to bind and loose was committed to him confiding in the Judgment and Mercy of God and Patronage of the B. Virgin and supported by the Authority of SS Peter and Paul c. but descends not to particulars So that it appears not whether he acted in vertue of a Spiritual or Temporal Power Directly or Indirectly and 't is likely he speculated not so far One thing is pretty remarkable in his second Sentence for he made two which ends in this manner After he had commanded all concerned to withdraw their Obedience from Henry and yield it to Rudolphus speaking as he does all along to the Apostles SS Peter and Paul You then See the words in Platina saies he most holy Princes of the Apostles confirm what I have said by your Authority that all men at last may understand if you can bind and loose in Heaven we likewise on Earth may give and take away Empires Kingdoms Principalities and whatever mortals can have Let Kings and all Princes of the World understand by his Example what you can do in Heaven and what power you have with God and hereafter fear to contemn the commands of the Holy Church And shew this Judgment upon Henry quickly that all Sons of Iniquity may perceive that he falls from his Kingdom not by chance but by your means This nevertheless I desire from you that by Repentance he may at your request find favour of our Lord at the day of Judgment For my part I cannot imagine but a man who speaks thus must needs mean uprightly and think at least he does well Notwithstanding the Apostles did not do as he desir'd them For this Rudulphus after he had fought twice upon equal terms with the Emperour was overthrown in the third Battle and so wounded in the right hand that he dy'd of it and dy'd full of Repentance and acknowledgment of his own fault and the Justice of God who had deservedly punisht him in that hand with which he had formerly sworn Fealty and Service to his Lord. So that though I believe the Pope thought himself much in the right yet the Court of Heaven thought not fit to grant his Request but ordered things quite contrary to his expectation and desire The next famous Example is of Frederic the IId a Prince of great Power and Parts who falling out with several Popes as resolute as himself after several breaches at several times made up and several Sentences publisht and recall'd and renew'd again was at last with the astonishment and horrour of all present saies M. Paris solemnly Excommunicated and depos'd in the Councel of Lions And this made both Princes and Prelates begin to look about them foreseeing that if this deposing Power should go on a slight Pretence might at last serve turn to unthrone perhaps an Innocent Man and bring the vvorld into confusion which possibly was the cause the Popes Sentence was not executed For this Frederic notwithstanding those proceedings kept the Empire till his death which happened long after But still I see not any ground to judge whether the Power were yet thought Direct or Indirect and in likelyhood People had in common a great Veneration for the Supream Pastour and his Decrees and thought them wicked men vvho submitted not to them but what kind of Power he had and hovv far it extended as far as I can perceive they little considered 'T is observable both in this Sentence and the former of Gregory VII that the Emperour is first Deposed and afterwards Excommunicated in aggravation as it were of the former Penalty The business was a little more discust in the Contests betwixt Boniface the VIIIth and Philip the Fair of France As this Pope is Recorded for a man of more mettle than Vertue his proceedings were
the rest these are florishes on both sides The matter rests upon this issue which of the two has the best reasons and he that has will carry it T is time for me to leave it with you to stand for the Plaintiff or Defendant as you see cause and ease my self of this ungrateful labour You see what is said on both sides To tell you what the world thinks of their sayings is not so easy The world is a politick world they let the hot men write and wrangle and for themselves hear all and see all and say nothing The truth is while one side talks of Treason and the other of Sacrilege t is good to be wary T is not for private men to make an enemy either of Pope or Prince and as the case stands you cannot say I or No without displeasing one I must confess I am very sorry you would not let me play the Policitian for company Your importunity has drawn me into the list of those fools who disquiet themselves to please other folks and take a great deal of pains to be talk't on twenty to one very scurvily The quarrel is betwixt supream Powers and they best know what to do in their own concerns I fear t is little better then sawcines for men of our form to interpose in things so far above us and perhaps madness to thrust in bewixt two stones and be crusht in pieces I see this yet cannot avoid whether the charms of your Friendship or violence of your importunity T is true I have endeavoured to touch this tender matter as tenderly as I could What I profest at first I repeat again I do not dogmatize but relate and am sure you have no reason to be displeased that I would displease as few as I could This is the reason since you will needs have it why I beat about the bush and do not shoot my fools-bolt directly at the mark I do not take the satisfaction of your curiosity to import me so much as living quietly T is for Princes to resolve on the Can not or Shall not or what else they think fit Private men till they be commanded to declare them do best to keep their thoughts to themselves This I can assure you that though for these reasons I do not desire every body should know them I have none in this matter which do not become a good Christian and a good subject and Your faithful friend c. The Eleventh and Twelfth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1674. FRIEND OF all I have seen or heard you shall have it for Policy Sir Wood-bee himself is no body to you The sum of what I askt was in two words Are you a good Subject And the sum of your Answer is Betwixt you and me I would have it thought so but make no words on 't private men must not meddle with things above them Here 's Ragion di stato for you Things above them Why is Honesty among you lookt upon as a thing out of reach Are you of kin to the Muscovite who being askt of his Faith in God and hopes of Salvation reply'd They were things above him which he should be glad were true but could not think so great a Majesty could ever think of so poor a man Is it above you to be a good Subject and a thing which you dare not confess for modesty sake and the imputation of sawciness Are things carried so among you that you must needs live unquietly if your Neighbours know you deserve to live quietly Is it become a piece of interest and policy to be ill thought of and if there be an honest man among you must he by all means make a secret on 't for fear of exasperating Supream Powers and thrusting in betwixt two stones How have I been mistaken I took you for a plain dealing man and you are the very Pink of Policy But for meer shame I could find in my heart to quarrel with you and cannot for my life but tell you you have taken a great deal of pains to little purpose Pray permit me to revenge your nicety by unmannerly bluntness and to carry it to the uttermost ask you how far you are from Pedius in the Satyr Fur es ait â—edio Pedius quid crimina rasis Librat in Antithetis The question being of robbing no less than Soveraigns Are you a good Subject is but in less homely Terms Are you a Thief And your Answers are as like as the Questions Only Pedius was for Rhetorick and you for History Some say this and some say that which is all you tell me is but Historical Antithesis You tell me I may judge as I please I know I may and I do judge as all men of judgment do But pray remember those that do not plead directly Guilty or not Guilty cast themselves Had I only desir'd to know what people say it had been no such hard matter to have got Books and read them my self and never troubled you I know the Arguments well enough and I know what to think of them but I know not what to think of you whom a man that were not as I am very favourably inclin'd would be apt to suspect you think something which you are asham'd to own No Friend You scape not so I would and if you be not very obstinate will know what you are and whether those of your Religion may be trusted If you believe what is publickly written and own'd by some among you you are not if you believe it not but yet will not disown it as honest as you are in your heart since no body can tell but you are a knave how can you expect but to pass for one among the rest Either deal frankly with me or I must with you and tell you 't is Guilt that fears the light If you continue still to make a secret of what of all the world it most concerns those of your Perswasion to publish both for your own interest and honour of your selves and Church he must be a very good natur'd man who will think well of you who make dainty to shew why he should do so You are charg'd with inconsistence with Civil Government You faintly deny it and say you are traduc't but are shy to justifie your Innocence your Church it self is call'd in question where the Books are licenc't the Authors cherisht and the Doctrines put in practice You tamely hear all this and would have us think your Church a good Church for all that a pure unblemish't Church but if we will not of our selves kindly turn away our eyes and
look off you will not do so much for her as wipe off those blemishes 'T is true you have told me and 't is the only thing to purpose you have told me that That cannot be the Churches Doctrine which is openly disclaim'd by a great part of the Church and that part acknowledg'd Orthodox by all the rest But if your Chuch forbid any to profess their minds as freely as others it must needs be suspected She has more kindness for these Doctrines than is for Her honour and however sound she may be is yet a very injurious Church which obliges her Subjects to pass for suspicious and dangerous people and be thought to hold what they are not oblig'd to do and what perhaps they do not hold but must not say so Besides I have already told you the Case is not much different whether these Doctrines belong to your Faith or not if they be thought true for that is enough to make them practic'd upon occasion And if your Church permit none to say they are false who can think but she desires they should pass for true and that they will do so at last if they do not already And then truly we have great security from your Answer as if because these Doctrines do not belong to your Church as Church they might not be made use of by your Church as so many men I told you this before and you saw well enough how much your Churches reputation was concern'd notwithstanding what you say for her and yet you continue cold and will say no more Never tell me This Lethargy of yours is not for nothing If you be grown careless of your own credit and interest I thought nothing could have quench't the Zeal you all have of your Church How a Papist insensible when the Honour of his Church is in question Deny it as long as you will either you are forbidden to speak and let people know what you harbour in your breasts or you harbour something there which 't is not for your interest people should know In short this constraint which is upon you must either be from abroad or at home You deny there is any from abroad And I hope you say true otherwise I know not what to think of a Church which permits not her Subjects to approve their fidelity to their Prince If it be at home it can be nothing but Guilt and shame and the Conscience of adhering to bad Tenets For I hope you do not think in earnest the State should take it ill of any who should profess as openly as he will that he is an honest man and a good Subject If you fear nothing from your own side it goes very ill with you if you have to fear from ours We know who they are to whom the Civil-sword is a Terrour Excuse not your self upon my curiosity and think it inconsiderable and unworthy of satisfaction 'T is true I am curious and if I were not you would make me so But let me tell you my curiosity is more a friend to you then your squeamishness For pray consider No Commonwealth at least none of a different Communion is safe where those Doctrines are receiv'd which are current among some of you Who 's the Friend I who give you occasion and press you to clear your selves or you who by your backwardness will make it shortly be thought you cannot be clear'd I know well enough there is no great Community nor can be whose Members are all free from fault The nature of mortality bears not an absolute perfection But do you think it a small point of friendship that I offer you the means to make it appear that whoever is faulty you are not Every body can tell and were it put to your self I am fully perswaded you would not deny it that he is not very well principled for a Subject who believes what some of you teach While you make such a mystery of it no body can say you are not of the number and many will suspect you are In fine there is no choice but either you do believe ill and then I must change my good thoughts of you or you do not and then either say so plainly or you are the most superlative Politick in the world to take other mens faults upon you and entitle your self to a guilt which is none of your own If you will give off the defence of your Church and leave her to shift as well as she can for her self why with all my heart I have no reason to wooe you to a sense of your Churches reputation If you will grow careless of your own fame and be content to have it thought you deserve the harsh censures which some make of you you may too if you please though as a Friend I would advise you to do otherwise But let me tell you if you become forgetful we shall not We remember there was such a time as 88 and a thing call'd the Invincible Armada and which might have been so indeed if the Commanders had not been more careful to stick punctually to their Orders then do their business We remember the cause of all this was what Sixtus the Fifth cals Heresie of the Queen which mov'd him to expose the Kingdom as a prey and Philip the Second to seize it We know this cause remains and hope it will do so If it have not wrought since we may thank the want of opportunity and prospect of another Armada But when occasion serves we cannot but think the same cause will be apt to produce the same effect Now pray review your Politicks and see whether they will counsel you to settle this opinion among your fellow-Subjects that in such a case which may happen because it hath happened there are who would joyn with an enemy and help to enslave their Countrey and that you are the men If your Politicks do advise you to this they are the worst natur'd unkindest Politicks in the world I am sure let who will be the Politician I am the Friend But however they advise you we who are no Politicians should be glad to know there are none such among us or if there be who they are We value our own safety though you do not your credit Notwithstanding if you will persist in your Politick diffidence and think we Hereticks are not to be trusted so far as to be made acquainted that you are not errant Knaves I cannot help it But I will convince you if I can that there is something more then bare curiosity in the matter Let me tell you in confidence since this business must needs be made a secret that I am no such stranger to it as you think I 〈◊〉 thought of it a whole Moneth at least and am deceiv'd if I do not see a little into the Milstone At least I am sure my eyes have one advantage which I suspect yours may want that they are not dazled with the lustre of great Names
was a scurvy thing to jabber words and never mind what they signifie For there is nothing in all this which Indirect power can mean but Direct Power In fine there is no way to make this Power Indirect but by saying either that the Pope when he commands Deposition does not command Deposition which for my part I would not do because I fear I should tell a lye or else that Deposition does not follow from that from which it follows and if I should say this too I fear I should tell two lies But however since Indirect sure must be some way opposite to Direct The Popes Power to be Indirect must be some way not directed to Deposition Which way this should be he must be wiser than I that can tell If Determination or Intention would do it sure it cannot be thought he is not determin'd or does not intend to do that which he commands And if the Directness be taken as it ought from the immediate influence of the power upon the effect we see he precisely commands this particular effect and 't is maintained this effect must follow in vertue of that command Now if any man can understand how a Power should be Indirect in respect of an Effect to which it is directed all the ways by which Power can be directed I would gladly be directed to that man to learn of him how nonsence may become sence But till I do meet him I must needs think that this distinction of Direct and Indirect in this case is a meer sound of words which signifie nothing and by which the Authors speculate themselves into nonsence and abuse themselves and their Readers I am not ignorant that those who maintain this Indirect Power speak otherwise of it but I think I speak as all men besides themselves speak and know not by vvhat right they force upon vvords meanings proper to their purpose and contrary to what general custom has fixt upon them To alter common and setled Notions is to perplex and embroyl things and condemn the inquiries of men to hopeless and endless confusion For Truth is discovered by seeing the connexion of Notions and Notions are known by Words and if the Notions belonging to vvords remain not steady and unchanged our search after Truth must needs end in uncertain noise and inextricable blunder He who has the liberty to alter the notion of vvords is empowred to maintain any thing If he take a fancy to defend that Jet is vvhite 't is but by vvhite meaning black and the business is done Where I see Notions changed I am mighty suspicious there is a design upon some Truth or other in the Changers And so I fear it happens in our case For if Indirect Power mean according to the apprehension of men Power to an Indirect effect Those who will maintain in the Pope an Indirect Power must to speak sence say that though he has not immediately and properly Power to Depose yet he has power to do something out of which Deposition vvill follow And this they vvould fain be at For give them their due they are no enemies to sence vvhile sence is no enemy to them They offer therefore sometimes at Excommunication and vvould make us believe that from thence must follow Deposition Excommunication is vvithout doubt a proper effect of Spiritual Power and so comes vvithin the sphere of the Popes activity and if it vvould but follow that an Excommunicated Person can have no Communication no vvay and vvith none An Excommunicated Prince vvould by that means be Deposed For he could not govern those vvith vvhom he could have no entercourse and if he could no longer govern he vvere no longer King This now is sence and intelligible but the mischief is it will not do They find Excommunication when they consider it a little better hinders indeed Communion in Spirituals but if there be any temporal tye to the Excommunicated person as of a Wife to a Husband a Servant to his Master all Subjects to their Prince Excommunication leaves this as entire and strong as it was before Any that has business with him may deal with him notwithstanding his Excommunication For it would be fine if when an Excommunicated person ows me mony I should not require my debt of him because he is Excommunicated Wherefore no Excommunication will hinder a Prince from conversing freely with his Subjects and his Subjects with him Nay they are obliged to all the acts of Duty to which they were before and not to become faulty themselves if perhaps their Prince be so Wherefore because this will not hold water they will not trust to it but think it safer to make bold with a word and give it a new notion than venture the cause upon a foundation which they are conscious will fail them 'T is a great deal better to talk a little non-sence than by obstinately sticking to sence hazard the loss of a good Cause That the Pope shall have power to depose Kings come what will they are resolv'd And because the Canonists do not thrive very well with their extravagance of making him sole and absolute Monarch of the World they think fit to be a little more modest and allay the bold heat with sprinckling this Indirect vpon it But then the notion of that word importing what they cannot make good there is no remedy but they must give it another If they could have kept the sence too it would have been so much the better but since that will not be they think it at least something if their Tenet let it signifie what it will sound not altogether so harshly as the Canonists with which they perceive the World not very well pleas'd Bellarmine therefore applies this lenitive and saies the Pope disposes of Temporals only Indirectly but whether he forgot the impertinent Circumstance or had any other reason never tells us what that word means in his Rom. Pont. where he first uses it but leaving it to shift for it self and us to guess what it means goes on to prove the power which he calls Indirect never offering to shew that 't is Indirect Neither is there any mention or use made of the word that I perceive in the whole course of his Arguments So that 't is manifest Power was the thing for which he was concern'd For the Indirect he thought it no great matter what became of it being perhaps in his own judgment but an insignificant sound without influence upon the thing Nevertheless against Barclay when he had bethought himself he kindly tells us what he means The Popes Power says he is per se and properly spiritual and therefore has reference Directly to spiritual matters as the primary object but Indirectly that is in order to Spirituals reductively and by necessary consequence to use that phrase looks upon Temporals as a secundary object to which it applys not it self but upon occasion casu or casualiter as the Canon speaks This is if you
the Fire burns de Facto but only warms de Jure That Bellarmin is a great Scholler de Facto but de Jure none at all I know I speak impertinently but I meant to do so and yet think I speak as pertinently as he who saies Duty is only duty de Facto but de Jure not duty He might ee'n as well have made use of his Indirect here too and said the Pope was subject only Indirectly but was not subject Directly or contrariwise for 't is all one Young Sophisters sometimes when they are put to it and know not how to shift off an Argument find something or other which sounds like a distinction no matter what it signifies and whether any thing or nothing so it serve turn for the present And I doubt he remembred the trick a little too long But Subjection to Princes being prov'd by Examples and Commands This is the Reserve for Examples when they are ill-natur'd and will not be turn'd off otherwise For Commands there is another common place which now 't is known is nothing but he was a very subtle man lure that first discovered it It consists in distinguishing the same man into a Prince and a not-Prince and then interpreting all obedience we find commanded belongs to the Prince only the not-Prince has no share in it This distinction because it is indeed a little hard they attribute to the Omnipotent power of the Pope and say that the Prince till he be deposed is a Prince but afterwards no Prince and because it still falls short for the man governs and lives like a Prince still they etch it out with its fellow distinction and say he is no Prince de Jure though he be de Facto And now bring 'em as many and as plain places for obedience as you will 't is the easiest thing in the world to get cleer of them Bring Scripture bring Fathers that a Prince is to be obey'd True say they while he is a Prince but now he is no longer a Prince Princes in my opinion have hard luck to stand in the Popes way and become the first sad examples of his Omnipotence otherwise there is no Law of God or Man which may not be overturn'd as easily by the same engine For he may as soon and as well declare That Wife to be no Wife That Man to be no Man and make Adultery and Murther lawful as that King to be no King and make Rebellion innocent There would not want as likely pretences for the one as the other if people would but look after them For Example A Man is a rational Creature who acts unreasonably disclaims his nature and may be dispatch't without contradicting the Divine Law which forbids men to be kill'd while they are men but he by the Popes declaration is no man As much may be found out for the Wife as much for Estates as much for every thing For there neither is nor can be any stronger title to any thing then the Law of God and that the King has to his Kingdom and if that will not do nothing will This is just Montalto Sin but enough and you trapan the Devil and become vertuous even by being wicked To refuse obedience to a King is with them a crime and a crime which deserves damnation marry to Un-king him and deny there is any obedience due to him is an innocent thing As if taking his Power quite away were not a greater disobedience then to resist it A particular disobedience may have a particular and sometimes excusable cause but a general disobedience such as leaves them no longer any Power to command is of all disobedience the greatest most inexcusable in it self and most contrary to the Divine Law And yet he would perswade us we sin if we obey not a particular perhaps trifling Command but if we take away Power and all we are very honest men Whereas in truth when I disobey a Power which I acknowledge perhaps I wrong my self most for I do not my duty but when I no longer acknowledge my Princes Power I do him as well as my self the greatest wrong I can and yet this greatest wrong with Bellarmine is no wrong These are the healing Distinctions which Bellarmine applies to his Doctrine and by which the sound Deposing is to be distinguisht from the unsound Deposing If you find any such soveraign vertue in them I shall be glad to learn it But for our part we think Deposing an uncurable disease a poyson for which there is no Antidote Disguise it how you will while it remains Deposing 't is alike intolerable alike inconsistent wâ—th the safety of Princes and duty of Subjects Call the Power indirect call it in Temporals not temporal as long as 't is Power and can do the feat no honest ear can hear it Tell us of admonition and space of repentance tell us of Synods and Consistories of disposing the prey according to Justice of not feigning necessities tell us what you will while you tell us Deposing is good Doctrine we cannot believe you good Subjects Bring a thousand Schoolmen and ten thousand subtilties against them all we will stand by our honest Parliament Doctrine That the Crown of England is and alwayes has been free and subject immediately to God and none other and who refuses his Fellowship in that Doctrine I know not with what face he can pretend to a Fellowship in any thing else But the truth is I do not see that Bellarmine with all his art does so much as guild the bitter Pill or make it a jot less nauseous For what is the very worst the Canonists say Take their opinion in his own expressions and he says all they say and in terms as positive and as comprehensive Take Carerius or whoever is the highest flyer among those I sent you at first and the worst is but this That the Pope has jurisdiction over all things both spiritual and temporal throughout the world that he may absolve Subjects from the Oath of Allegeance Depose Kings and transfer their Dominions from one line to another And which of this worst does Bellarmine with his proper Distinctions and cautious Buts deny 'T is true they call his Power Direct and Bellarmine Indirect but what matter is it how they are called if one can do as much as the other And I would fain know what they can do with their Direct which be cannot with his Indirect 'T is true they make but one absolute Monarch of the world and all the rest but arbitrary Lieutenants and Bellarmine cals them true Kings but makes them as much subject as if they were but Lieutenants Were Kings perswaded once it were their duty to resign at the Popes command they would themselves make no difficulty to call and think him their supreme Lord. 'T is only in consideration of the scurvy consequence which would follow viz. that being supreme and absolute Lord he might dispose of his own as he
say that whatever out of the strength of his wit He alledges on the other side yet this Charter is no more valid in his judgment than in other folks And I do not mean that 't is become now invalid by the force of Prescription for this he has sufficiently declared but that it was originally and always invalid Truly I am mistaken if this may not be concluded from what he says elsewhere when dis-engaged from the desire of making good his Argument he frankly discovers his true sentiments Pag. 239. considering an observation made in a former Letter on the particular Fact of the Emperour Frederick he replies That whether supreme Princes may put it into a Forreigners power to compel them to cession by a direct deprivation of their Right of Government is a case which he thinks none will easily grant to be either Just or Secure for the Common-wealth for which they were concern'd I conceive that when K. John resign'd his Kingdom and receiv'd it again to hold of the Pope as principal Lord to whom he became a Vassal He put it into the power of a Forreigner to compel him not only by Ecclesiastical Censures but by a direct deprivation of his Right of Government And this he declares to be Unjust and Unsafe for the Commonwealth King John then even in his own opinion did unjustly and against the good of the Commonwealth that is had not Right to do what he did and his Act was invalid from the beginning I suppose therefore He will acknowledg on second thoughts that there are other ways to bound the actions of supreme Princes besides Compacts and Concessions and that Justice and the Safety of the Commonwealth are two of those ways in which other Princes were obliged to walk as well as K. John and if they did not their Actions are not to be drawn into example I will hope the Question is resolved to satisfaction For I know no fairer nor surer way to end a difference than to put it to Judgment And since 't is judged on my side by an Authority from which there lyes no appeal and by those who one would expect should be most partial on the other Those who contriv'd the Deed and Him who urges it Of the Popes Temporal Monarchy I should think there is no more to be desir'd If any mans curiosity reach further he may find wherewith to satisfie it in those who have already handled this Subject particularly the learned Crakanthrop But to touch briefly what is more largely treated elsewhere the Charter contradicts and destroys it self reserving in one place what it grants in another There is in it an express saving of the Rights given away by this clause Salvis nobis Haeredibus nostris Justitiis Libertatibus Regalibus nostris Nothing can be more manifest than that the Independency of the Crown belongs to the Regalia and again that subjection is opposite to Liberty And yet the Regalia and Liberty are expresly reserv'd at the same time when the Crown is made Dependent and Subject This is just I give you a hundred pound which hundred pound I keep to my self Which is an unvalid and self-destructive Act and passes nothing and is in truth a piece of Non-sence not a Gift Again that the Regalia Imperii are Inalienabilia without consent of the Subjects is a point setled by a consent so unanimous of all Nations that there is no Maxim more known 'T is very troublesome and more idle to fill paper with Quotations for a point better known than the Author to be quoted This too is a receiv'd Maxim that Metus cadens in virum constantem nuls the Act extorted by fear of which besides a hundred examples in all nations some even of Popes themselves who upon that ground have voided their own Acts the Pope to whom this Grant was made has left a very pregnant instance in the case of this very King The Barons a little after obtained the Magna Charta from him confirmed by all the security they could devise The Pope solemnly declares all proceedings void because extorted by fear But it is most evident that K. John had no greater cause of fear when he past the Magna Charta than he had when he signed the Charter to the Pope Pandulph brought him to it by exaggerating his imminent danger the French with a vast Army ready to land backt with the Ecclesiastical power of the Clergy and Arms of the Laity whereof many of the principal were said to have oblig'd themselves by authentick Charters to assist the French The King yielded confusus valde mente nimis perturbatus videns undique sibi periculum imminere in the words of M. Paris Could there be more fear from the Barons alone than from the same Barons and French and Pope too Or could his fear in one case make his Act void and signify nothing in the other So that there is this very good reason to believe that the Pope himself to whom the Kingdom was granted judged the Grant nul because he declared an Act of the same King nul by a less fear than that which extorted his Grant This too was understood by those who drew the Charter and inserted this other clause Non vi inducti nec Timore coacti sed nostra bona spontaneaque voluntate By which it is apparent that there was more than one clause contrary to Truth and that more was requisite to the validity of the Act even in the judgment of the Contrivers than could be had Which is that the Act was invalid as wanting what themselves thought necessary to make it valid By this and much more alledged by divers the Nullity of that Grant of K. John appears I think very undeniably supposing in him all the Right which can be supposed in any King of England But by our Authors favour what he takes for granted that K. John had undoubted Kight to the Crown at the passing of this act is very far from undoubted A Sister of Arthur's was then living and long after in whom the Right of Arthur could not but be When K. John by his success at Mirabel got Arthur into his hands he made use of the opportunity of his victory to seize likewise upon his Sister Elianor whom he brought into England and confin'd to Bristol Castle There was another and I think an elder Sister but what became of her I know not In likelyhood she died before these times But this Lady surviv'd her Uncle The Pope mentions her among those who had right to the Crown to the Embassadors of Lewis M. Paris ad an 1216. who sought to justify their Masters title to England and the French objected against her what if it have any force in their Law has none in ours For it is a plain case that the elder line takes place of the younger in the inheritance of the Crown and no act or forfeiture of K. John could bar the right of
Taxes They who are to wean the hearts of the Laity from affection to Riches and the rest of perishable goods should rather set them an example of their Doctrine and are like to be heard but ill when they Preach on that subject if they be known to love Riches themselves and refuse in the necessities of the common-wealth to part with what the wisdom of it judges they may spare Either shew me that a Clergy man cannot live as a Clergy man should without such exemptions as these or I shall never believe they are commanded by the Law of God or Nature Then the Tenure by which they hold what they have is to be consider'd Not but what they have purely from the Piety and Liberality of men is truly theirs and to look upon it with regret is Envy and to take it causlesly away Injustice Notwithstanding though there were no more in the case it is a point of Gratitude to acknowledge our Benefactors But if we reflect that Divine Right is an unmoveable Basis on which whatever stands can never be stirred Humane Right is subject to the contingency of Humane things it will appear of considerable importance on which of the two the exemptions of the Clergy be settled for it may happen that what is convenient in one time and place may be inconvenient elsewhere and in another season Now 't is in Human Authority to provide a remedy for whatever inconvenience change of circumstances shall produce in Exemptions derived from Human Authority But if all be thought to flow from a Divine Spring let the waters be never so troubled or corrupt never so rapid or overflow with never so much prejudice the mischief is without remedy By the way since no ill can proceed from the Fountain of Good if any Exemption bring mischief along with it that Exemption confutes it self and needs no second Argument to evidence it has no warrant from God or Nature Bellarmin now says They are of Divine Right all Reason says some at least are harmful to Princes harmful to the Common-wealth harmful to the Clergy themselves what says the Church Is she for Bellarmin or Reason You and I have kept a great coyl to little purpose if she stand fast to Bellarmin and all our past labour is e'en much ado about nothing For what avails it to shut up the great gate of Direct and back door of Indirect Power if there be still a way under-ground to get into the house All hitherto said in behalf of Princes is that the Pope cannot take away their Kingdoms for any cause What is this better than a Cheat if he can even without any cause take away their subjects For what is a Kingdom good for and indeed what is it but the subjects Consider what a Prince he were into whose Dominions strangers might enter in what numbers they pleased without his leave and plant and settle themselves and live without subjection to him And tell me what difference there is whether those men be strangers or natives This is at least a partial Deposition a fair step to a total and in some respect worse For that may be avoided by a Prince who will alwaies do what the Pope pleases and give him no hold since it cannot be put in practice without Demerit But from this no even Merit can preserve any Prince The Pope not only may but of necessity must depose him from all Soverainty over as many as belong to the Clergy And how far may that carry Exemptions if I mistake not are extended to the Families of Clergy-men too and so as many servants as they take so many subjects the Prince loses What if they should stretch it a little farther to honorary servants too and bring exemptions into fashion as well as Protections I should wonder if all this and twenty times as much might not be deduc'd from the Law of Nature too in Bellarmin's method inevidently and unnecessarily What if they should yield sometimes to the frailty of nature and out of Avarice or Revenge take their Neighbours Goods or life If they cannot be Indited but are exempt from that Fear which is the great security men in community have of their Lives and Fortunes I suspect 't will not be good living too near a Clergy-man But to leave such unlikely Speculations the Clergy especially in their Countries where Religious abound are considerable even in number and every where in quality for the Influence they have over the people more I believe than any other kind of those into which the people are divided Consider what fine doings there would be if the most considerable part of a Nation owe no subjection to the Prince no contribution to the common necessities no obedience to the Laws in short be a part of the Nation and no part of the Common-wealth What Title have they to the benefits of it who bear no share in the burthens What to the protection of Laws who break them at pleasure What pretence to security in the enjoyment of their Goods from which they who secure them can promise themselves no assistance upon occasion Other mens estates are so theirs that they are more the Common-wealths which can at any time take as much of them as the publick necessities require With what comes to the Clergy she has no more to do more than to keep it safe to them that they may keep it safe from her and be a Guard for them against her self Consider what this imports I mistake if I have not heard of times and places in which a fourth part of the value of the whole has been in the Clergys hands Riches being the strength of a Nation that Nation was plainly a fourth part weaker than it would have been otherwise But whatever be the proportion what the Clergy gets the Common-wealth loses and I suspect there are few which can with safety bate any part of their strength I will say no more believing that you see enough what I would be at Either dam up the Spring if you judge as I do the waters unwholsome or shew they are wholsom Chuse which you please only let me not long bear the burthen of the impatient curiosity which is now upon Yours c. I must needs add a word of what every body talks of What work has their Religion made among us Pray tell me what you think of the matter for I will refer it to your self and make you Judge whether it be for a rational man to entertain a good thought of a Religion which has set a whole Nation in a flame Excuse my Freedom or if you will bluntness Reproaches I know ill become the mouth of a Friend at any time and have something of inhuman in affliction They are not meant to You but to that restless Spirit which haunts your Religion a Spirit which no moderation and good usage of others no hazard and inconvenience of your own can charm into quiet a Frenzy which keeps you
accounts But I mind not the Position but the Answer Since the Prince breeds and nourishes feeds and secures Priests as well as others in the Politick life it is plain he has in that respect the Notion of Father and Shepherd even to them and Bellarmin has no manner of Reason to deny they may be called Children and Sheep and obliged to do what nature teaches Children and Sheep ought to do The fourth Argument is this The Clergy are the Ministers of God consecrated to his service alone and offered by the whole people for that purpose whence they have their name as belonging to the Lot of God But the Princes of the World certainly can have no right over those things which are offered and consecrated to God and made as it were his proper goods If I had a mind to Dispute of Etymologys or thought it worth while to maintain against him that the Clergy have their name rather because God is their Lot than They Gods there would be enough to take my part But I love not to lose time for which reason too I forbear to except against all that is exceptionable in the Argument It will be sufficient to say that it differs little in substance from its fellows only it is set forth in another manner The Service and Lot of God are but what he called Spirit and Pastors before And the same Key will serve to the Lock In as much as they are the Lot of God and in respect of his Service to which they are consecrated the Clergy are unaccountable to the Secular Power but when they devest themselves of the Clergy-man and wear only the man that man if he deserve to feel the Secular Sword may for any thing I see in the Argument Wickedness is sure no part of God's Lot nor can I imagine how the priviledge of his service should be pretended where there is no service of his nay where the pretender acts directly contrary to it Were it true that Princes had nothing to do with things belonging to God or men consecrated to his Service all Christians and all things seem in a fair way towards Exemptions as well as Clergy-men For God has a very true property in all Things and Christians are all and that very solemnly consecrated to his service They serve him indeed in another way than the Clergy but they truly serve him and are by solemn consecration obliged to that service Since we see that service is so far from exempting them from subjection to Princes that obedience to them is part of it it is plain there is no repugnance betwixt the service of God and subjection to Princes unless they command things contrary to that service And from such commands all men are exempt as well as the Clergy with this difference that the Clergy are exempt from all that is contrary to the service of Clergy-men the rest only from what is contrary to the service of Christians Yet Bellarmin would bear us in hand that what he says is certain and tells us that the Light of Reason shews it and God has not obscurely delivered it in the last of Leviticus Whatsoever is once consecrated to God shall be Holy of Holys to the Lord. The Light of Reason may indeed do much when he makes it appear but He who is so much for Exemptions should methinks allow us to be exempt from the Ceremonial Law The Chapter he cites takes order about the offerings made to God and appoints some to be redeemed others not But those commands are given to the Jews we see nothing like them in the Christian Law And no body knows better than himself that we are to be guided by our own not their Law and that it lays no obligation on us purely as their Law though the matter of it do sometimes bind us on the score of Reason He says indeed that 't is so in this case but barely to say so is not to prove His word if that were the business would go far with me but when he is making Arguments I expect an Argument I say no more at present because this I conceive is as much as needs for an Answer and I intend to discourse of the merits of this cause more at large hereafter The fifth and last Argument is from signs and Prodigys shewn as he says by God on those who have presumed to violate Ecclesiastical Immunities For proof of this he sends us to one Bredembachius an Author I have never seen and therefore not knowing nor having means to know particulars can only answer in general If the signs and Prodigys he talks of be true Miracles and those express to the point clearly wrought in confirmation of Immunities extended as far as Bellarmin stretches them though I am slow of belief yet if it be truly so I will wash my hands of the business God forbid I should doubt of any thing let it seem never so strange and never so cross to my reason which carries his seal to it uncounterfeited But I am strongly perswaded there is no such matter If there were Bellarmin is a strange man to amuse us with his probabilities and unnecessary consequences when he had proof in store infinitely more convictive than even demonstration it self A Miracle may perhaps have been done to shew God's care of the Church or Ministry He is not less powerful now than heretofore in his Judgments upon Nadah and Abiu Oza and Ozias But Miracles are not lightly to be believed and when they are manifest Bellarmin's Doctrine may be ne're the truer unless they come home to it In likelihood who had Bredembachius to see what he says would find no more than observations of signal perhaps unusual and unhoped prosperities happening to some who favoured the Clergy and crosses to those who did otherwise which his whether piety or bigottery enhances into Miracles If this be all the Fire to the smoke the Topick ill becomes Bellarmin's learning Who had the Malice to collect all that History affords of adversity to the good and prosperity to the bad might perhaps make as big a Book as that of Bredembachius For 't is an old complaint and that of a Wise man too that all things happen alike to the Good and the Bad as if God had no care of the World while in truth he has the greater by letting things happen so and by that Providence teaching us not to value the Goods of this World but raise our hearts to better I am the apter to think there is no more in it because Bellarmin himself makes a famous business of what I should not have thought worth alledging As for Prodigys and Signs as many as there be in Bredembachius he had no mind it seems to become Voucher so much as for one for he cited not any But he tells us the Emperour Basilius Porphyrogenitus laies all the Calamities of that time to the charge of a certain Law made by Nicephorus Phocas against Ecclesiastical
Answers But besides that my Pitcher contrary to the case in Horace is already become a Jarr and 't would be monstrous to work it into a Tun I considered it is not our business at present We are not now upon the What 's said but the Who said it To examine who has most reason for what he says is to turn back to the merits of the Cause which if any one will do I am well content to leave him to himself For he must have either very bad eyes or much turn'd away who will not easily see through all that is said In the mean time it is enough for my purpose that 't is acknowledged and by Bellarmin himself that what he says is contradicted by Catholicks men of note as well as himself and whose No has as much authority as his I But I conceive it fitting to produce some of a higher Form and whose credit is unquestionable To begin with one against whom none can speak or be heard without impiety I vouch in the first place St. Paul Rom. 13. Let every Soul be subject to the higher Powers And here I might end as well as begin For this is in truth alone decisive He must have no Soul who can pretend this command comprehends him not Yet let us hear his Interpreters Theodoret upon this place has these words Sive est Sacerdos c. whether one be a Priest or Prelate or have profest a Monastical life let him obey those ijs cedat to whom Magistracy is committed Theophylact upon the same place has almost the same words Vniversos erudit c. He instructs All whether a Priest or Monk or Apostle that they be subject to Princes St. Chrysostom Hom. 23. upon the Epistle to the Romans Sed eas Paulus c. But Paul makes use of such reasons as command obedience to the Powers by way of debt shewing those things are commanded All as well Priests as Monks not Seculars only And this he declares in the very beginning when he says Let every Soul be subject to the higher Powers Though you be an Apostle though an Evangelist though a Prophet in fine whatsoever you be For this subjection is not against Piety Let us next hear Popes themselves Gelasius writing to the Emperour Anastasius tells him that The Prelates of the Church owe him all obedience in Temporals And again Ep. 10. Antistites Religionis Bishops also themselves are to obey thy Laws and this because forasmuch as concerns the Order of Publick Discipline that is the Government of the Common-wealth We know the power is by supernal disposition given to Thee Anastasius to the same Emperour acknowledges that Bishops are subject to the Laws of the Prince in what concerns publick Discipline But Princes to Bishops in dispensing the Mysteries and Sacraments Pelagius the first Ep. 16. to Childebert King of France With how much study and labour must we endeavour for taking away the scandal of suspicion to offer the duty of our confession to Kings to whom the Holy Scriptures command us also to be subject St. Gregory the Great speaks with a submission which offends Baronius and makes him strain his wits to find a scurvy way to colour the business But no Varnish will ly That he was subject to the Emperours command That he did what he ought in obeying the Emperour on one side and speaking for God on the other That Power from Heaven is given to the Piety of his Lords as he calls Emperours over all men over Priests as well as Souldiers c. have a blunt ill natur'd clearness which no Art can practice upon I cannot but take notice by the way how Bellarmin strives to weather those Rocks He objects against himself the aforesaid place of St. Paul with the other to the same purpose out of St. Pet. 2. and what St. Chrysostome says of the matter And answers That those places are general and mean no more than that every one be subject to his own Superiour But the subjection of the Clergy to Princes cannot be proved by them till it be proved that Princes are lawful Superiours and Judges of the Clergy which cannot be proved unless it be proved that Sheep have preheminence over Pastors Children over Parents and Temporals over Spirituals And yet we do not contradict St. Chrysostome neither For though we say the Pope alone is the proper Judge of the Clergy and Monks yet we confess the King is King of them as well as the Laity For Princes fight for them and They must honour and pray for him and obey him too directively not co-actively and with his former restrictions That Prejudice should be thus powerful Is it possible Bellarmin should in earnest perswade himself the Apostles meant only in general that every one should obey whom he ought obey the Laity their Secular the Clergy their Ecclesiastical Superiour Are not the Superiours or higher Powers whom All are commanded to obey expresly named by St. Peter Kings and Dukes or Governours sent to punish evil doers and by St. Paul Magistrates who bear the Sword Can he think this Command is comply'd with by obedience to Ecclesiastical Superiours Are They Kings Do they bear the Sword Are They the Ministers of God to wrath and vengeance What better proof would he have the Kings are lawful Superiours even of the Clergy than St. Paul gives viz. that their powers are ordained by God whom to resist is to acquire Damnation In St. Peter we find the reason of his Doctrine exprest when he admonishes Christians so to converse among the Gentiles that They who speak ill of them may be moved by their good Works to glorifie God and the ignorance of the foolish be silenc'd By the Calumny which the Apostle means all Interpreters understand a suspicion crept in among the Gentiles of disobedience to Temporal powers and contempt of their Laws For such a seditious Doctrine there was among the Jews begun by Judas the Galilean and tenaciously embrac'd by the Pharisees It was too well known by the disorders it caused and being mistaken for a point of the Jews Religion Christians were asperst with it as deriving their Religion from them Both the Apostles took care to clear Christianity from the aspersion and therefore instructed the Faithful to obey Secular powers not by constraint or force Propter Iram as they phrase it but for conscience because such was the Will of God who had given them the power they had This was the matter of Fact Consider now how Bellarmin handles it There is indeed saith he express mention made of Kings because at that time it was very necessary least they should have hindred the Preaching of the Gospel but yet the Apostles meant no more than that every one should be subject to his own lawful Superiour Is not this to say that the Apostles were not men of that holy simplicity which is believed For 't is plainly to go about to over-reach Princes with fair words to seek