been told this that I speak here and I desire it may be proved Lord High Steward If you are bound up so that you cannot consent I can t help it Mr. Serj. Maynard Let him put the Fact my Lords and not suppose and imagine Things and then raife Questions L. H. Stew. It is usual in these Cases for the Gentlemen of the House of Commons to stay till the Lords are withdrawn and expect their Lordships Resolution perhaps they may so order it that you need not go back Sir Will. Jones I desire before your Lordships withdraw that it may be taken notice of by your Lordships that for the matter of the variation of the year we do admit it My Lord is not pleased to mention any other particular matter of the Affidavit but only says in general that it is contrary to what he says to day if my Lord would tell us wherein perhaps we should admit it or answer it or take it into further consideration but to make so general an Allegation and give your Lordships no particular account we submit whether such a suggestion ought to be regarded Lord High Steward Is there any further variation besides the variation of the year L. Staff I cannot say there is my Lord I do not know it but I do really believe in my Conscience there is from what I have heard but however I insist upon it and demand your Judgment Sir Fr. Win. My Lords I humbly desire one word as to the Objection that hath been made that he hath prayed your Lordships to grant him the sight of such and such Papers The nature of this Cause my Lords we know is such that there was never the like number of Papers known as to the General Plot and my Lord that is the Prisoner at the Bar may as well demand to morrow such a particular Paper and the next day another that he hath heard of in the General Plot and where will the end of this be So that if the thing be granted upon the variation of the time that it was immediately rectifyed and he cannot produce any grounds that may satisfie your Lordships why he should have that Paper you may as well suffer him to demand any other Paper after and so never end the Cause L. H. Stew. Your Lordship hath been told and you shall find it that you shall have as fair and equal an Hearing as is possible and nothing shall be denied you that is just and reasonable to safe your Life or make your Defence But pray my Lord for so much as is upon the Journal which you may resort unto you may easily know what answer my Lords will give to that but for this other thing if it be only the variety you alledge of the Time and the Year and you do desire it to look for other Exceptions and you pray the help of the Lords to see such a Paper that you might make inquiry after other varieties Do you think they are to help you to find out Exceptions to the Witnesses L. Stafford I do not desire their Lordships to help me to find out Exceptions but I have told your Lordships of one Exception to the Affidavit which these Gentlemen acknowledge to be true and the other Affidavit is that he Swears I spoke to him at Doway in the year 72 or 73 which I can disprove and then I say he Swearing several things false he is no credible Witness L. H. Stew. 'T is admitted to your Lordship that he did mistake the time L. Stafford It is admitted that he said he spoke to me at Doway L. H. Stew. How very an easie matter were it to expedite this Process by allowing the Prisoner his demand in this particular Sir Will. Jones I never saw it and a great many of the Managers say they never saw it L. Stafford These Gentlemen say I did it to put off the Cause I am far from it for though I am in a condition very unfit to manage my Defence faint and weak with speaking so long and hardly able to speak any more yet I desire to finish this night and if I see it now it will be enough I shall not desire to have a Copy to advise with my Counsel or any body else L. H. Stew. Pray Gentlemen of the House of Commons will you observe my Lord as weary as he is would make an end of the matter presently if you would but send for the Affidavit Mr. Foley My Lords it is not in our hands here if the House of Commons will order it it may be done we cannot order it of our selves Mr. Powle My Lords this is a Paper that does properly belong to the House and I do think that none of us here that are Managers for this Trial will undertake it shall be delivered without resorting to the House for their Opinion for though I do verily beleive and am fully persuaded that what this Noble Lord at the Bar does object will not appear to be so For I think there is not any thing of my Lord Staffora's speaking with this Witness at Doway mentioned therein yet how far the Presidents of this may reach in other Cases I think is worthy the Consideration of the House And we cannot presume to offer any thing in it to your Lordships until you be pleased to give us leave to go and resort thither Then the Lords withdrew and after an Hours and an Halfs space returned and Proclamation was made for Silence L. H. Steward My Lord Viscount Safford my Lords have considered of the Demands you made and my Lords upon the Debate of the Reasons of your Demands are come to this Resolution Your Lordship did demand in the first place that you might have a sight of the Journal and have the Papers lodged in the House of Peers My Lords take notice that this Demand which your Lordship now makes is a Demand that was granted you long ago about two years since you have an Order entred upon the Books that your Lordship should have Copies of every thing in that House and if your Lordship have not taken out Copies and if any thing is missing to your Lordship that is yet there extant 't is your Lordships fault However my Lords will command their Journals to be brought hither that your Lordship may make that use of them that may be of most profit to you For the other Demand touching the Affidavit supposed to be taken from Turbervile by the Justices of the Peace that my Lords upon Consideration had do find that there is no Obligation at all upon them as a Court to concern themselves in that Matter And therefore my Lords have made no Order in that Point but your Lordship must come provided as well as you can and the Court can do no more to help you in it For the rest my Lords did take notice that your Lordship said before they were withdrawn That you found your self very Faint and Weary and
these be two such Witnesses as the Law requires I pray then my Lords consider the consequence of that doubt A man shall talk with twenty Persons about a Design to kill the King in one and the same Room one after another by taking them into a Corner singly and if ten or all twenty come to prove it here is but one Witness to each Discourse This would be a matter of dangerous Consequence but I hope will remain no manner of doubt with you nor is it fit to be argued As to the Hiring of Witnesses to Swear I think that can be no point of Law till it be so proved in Fact Doth his Lordship think that when His Majesty out of His Grace and Bounty allows a Maintainance to His Witnesses that that is an Objection to their Testimony Doth not every man allow his Witnesses a a Maintainance and yet it never was thought a thing to take away their Evidence It may be every one doth not give so large an allowance as the King because his Dignity is not so great But can it be an Objection to the House of Commons Have we that are the Prosecutors maintained them If His Majesty have been bountiful to His Witnesses what is that to this Cause of the Commons If my Lord can prove any thing of Bribery in us as he has proved for us against himself it may be an Objection But till that Fact be proved I hope there is no ground for a Question in Law and if there be no doubt in Law I hope there will be no need of Counsel Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford What are the Points you would have Counsel too Lord Stafford To all of them my Lords Lord High Steward Would you have Counsel to the first Point to argue what the Law of Parliaments is concerning the continuance of Impeachments from Parliament to Parliament Lord Stafford My Lords if you will declare the Law to be as these Gentlemen say I must acquiesce Lord High Steward Pardon me my Lord I do not declare the Law but ask you whether you would have Counsel to argue that Point Lord Stafford My Lords I do say there is no Example of it I know there have been Impeachments but no Examples of Impeachments continued from Parliament to Parliament Lord High Steward Then in the next place for I shall propose your Objections to their Lordships by and by and desire their Judgment in them Do you desire to argue by your Counsel that every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses Lord Stafford I do my Lords I desire my Counsel may be heard to all the Points I mentioned to your Lordships Lord High Steward Have you Counsel ready to speak to these Points now Lord Stafford Yes my Lords Lord High Steward Are they prepared to speak to them now Lord Stafford They are my Lords Lord High Steward If they be so what hurt will there be in hearing of them Sir William Jones My Lords Whether you will hear an Argument from Counsel about the Law of Parliaments I hope you will please well to consider Sir Fran. VVinnington My Lords We in the House of Commons do never suffer any Counsel to tell us what is the Course of our House and the Law of Parliaments if your Lordships think fit to allow it 't is in your own power but we who are intrusted with the Management of this Cause by the House of Commons have no direction to consent to such a thing Lord High Steward We will hear Counsel to save time upon that Point whether in proof of a Treason for killing the King every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses Sir William Jones If your Lordships make a doubt of it Sir Fran. Winnington And if the Prisoner desire it Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords We shall not oppose it but I shall wonder if any Counsel do maintain it Lord High Steward Are your Counsel ready to speak to that Point Lord Stafford Here they are my Lords Mr. Wallop of the Middle-Temple Mr. Saunders of the same Society and Mr. Hunt of Gray's Inn appeared by the Prisoner at the Bar as his Counsel Mr. Wallop May it please your Lordships we are here commanded by your Lordships to Attend that if any matter of Law do arise upon a Case proved agreed and judged by your Lordships debateable then in due time we are to conform our selves to your Lordships command and argue those Points for my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar. But if your Lordships do think that the Points urged by my Lord are not debateable in Law I have so high an Opinion of your Lordships Judgment and such a mean opinion of my own Talent that I shall not undertake to Argue Extempore in this great Assembly in a Cause of so high a Nature Lord High Steward Look you Sir you are of my Lords Counsel Mr. Wallop I am my Lords and by the Order of your Lordships do attend here Lord High Steward If you think it an arguable Point you will have the Judgment of my Lords afterwards Will you argue it now Mr. VVallop My Lords I always thought if a Point be stirred in any Court and thought disputable it should be stated and agreed before it be argued Lord High Steward You are to argue for my Lord and to know the Judgment of the Court afterwards would you know our Opinions before hand Mr. VVallop We would know what it is we are to argue if your Lordships please Lord High Steward Why if you are provided for it you are to maintain that by Law every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses if you are prepared speak to it and my Lords will hear you Mr. VVallop It is true my Lords there have been some publick Resolutions concerning that Point therefore I shall be the warier what I say in that But my Lords it is a matter that has been thought of great import one way or other but I do profess at this time I am not able to undertake a Solemn Argument upon that Point Lord Stafford My Lords I am so far from delaying this Cause that I desire it may be argued now Lord High Steward Then you are not ready to speak to it Mr. VVallop No my Lords I am not for my own part at present for it is impossible we should foresee what would be the Point and to apply our selves to study an unforeseen Case before it be agreed stated and judged worthy of Argument cannot be expected from us I have always observed it in the King's-Bench If the Prisoner urge any thing and the Court think it debateable they first agree and state the Case then Assign Counsel whom they do not urge to deliver an Opinion presently but give them time to prepare for it Lord High Steward Mr. VVallop it is not believed that this Point is moved but by your Advice that are of my Lord's Council and you should be ready to maintain the Advice you give
of the Tower of London bring forth thy Prisoner William Viscount Stafford upon pain and peril shall fall thereon God save the King Whereupon the Lieutenant of the Tower brought the Prisoner to the Bar. Usher of the Black Rod. My Lord Stafford must kneel which he did Lord high Steward Rise my Lord. Then he Arose and stood at the Bar and the Lord High Steward spake to him as followeth My Lord Viscount Stafford THE Commons of England Assembled in Parliament have Impeach'd your Lordship of High Treason and you are brought this Day to the Bar to be Tryed upon that Impeachment You are not Try'd upon the Indictment of Treason found by the Grand Jury tho there be that too in the Case But you are Prosecuted and Pursued by the Loud and Dreadsul Complaints of the Commons and are to be Try'd upon the Presentment which hath been made by the Grand Inquest of the whole Nation In this so Great and Weighty Cause you are to be Judg'd by the whole Body of the House of Peers The Highest and the Noblest Court in This or perhaps in any other part of the Christian World Here you may be sure no False Weights or Measures ever will or can be found Here the Ballance will be exactly kept and all the Grains of Allowance which your Case will bear will certainly be put into the Scales But as it is impossible for my Lords to Condemn the Innocent so 't is equally Impossible that They should clear the Guilty If therefore you have been Agitated by a Restless Zeal to Promote that which you call the Catholick Cause If this Zeal have Engaged you in such Deep and Black Designs as you are Charged with and this Charge shall be fully Prov'd Then you must Expect to Reap what you have Sown for every Work must and ought to Receive the Wages that are due to it Hear therefore with Patience what shall be said against you for you shall have full Time and Scope to Answer it Aud when you come to make your Defence you shall have a very fair and equal Hearing In the mean time the best Entrance upon this Service will be to begin with Reading of the Charge Lord High Steward My Lord if your Lordship find your self infirm and unable to stand your Lordship may have a Chair to ease your self whilst the Charge is Reading and a Chair was brought accordingly and his Lordship sate thereon Clerk of the Parliament Read the Charge Articles of Impeachment of High Treason and other high Crimes and Offences against William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford and Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis now Prisoners in the Tower of London 1. THat for many years now last past there hath been contrived and carried on by Papists a Trayterous and execrable Conspiracy and Plot within this Kingdom of England and other places to Alter Change and Subvert the Ancient Government and Laws of this Kingdom and Nation and to Suppress the True Religion therein Established and to Extirpate and Destroy the Professors thereof which said Plot and Conspiracy was contrived and carried on in divers Places and by several ways and means and by a great number of Persons of several Qualities and Degrees who Acted therein and intended thereby to Execute and Accomplish the aforesaid Wicked and Traiterous Designs and Purposes That the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis together with Philip Howard commonly called Cardinal of Norfolk Thomas White alias Whitebread commonly called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Richard Strange lately called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Vincent commonly called Provincial of the Dominicans in England James Corker commonly called President of the Benedictines Sir John Warner alias Clare Baronet William Harcourt John Kenis Nicholas Blundel Poole Edward Mico Thomas Bedingfield alias Benefield Basil Langworth Charles Peters Richard Peters John Conyers Sir George Wakeman Thomas Fenwick Dominick Kelly Fitzgerald Evers Sir Thomas Preston William Lovel Jesuits Lord Baltamore John Carrel John Townely Richard Langhorn William Fogarty Thomas Penny Matthew Medbourn Edward Coleman William Ireland John Grove Thomas Pickering John Smith and divers other Jesuits Priests Fryers and other Persons as false Traytors to his Majesty and this Kingdom within the time aforesaid have Traiterously Consulted Contrived and Acted to and for the accomplishing of the said wicked pernitious and Traiterous Designs and for that end did most wickedly and Traiterously agree Conspire and resolve to Imprison Depose and Murder his Sacred Majesty and to deprive him of his Royal State Crown and Dignity and by malicious and advised speaking writing and otherwise declared such their Purposes and Intentions And also to subject this Kingdom and Nation to the Pope and to his Tyrannical Government And to seize and share amongst themselves the Estates and Inheritances of his Majesties Protestant Subjects And to Erect and Restore Abbeys Monasteries and other Convents and Societies which have been long since by the Laws of this Kingdom suppressed for their Superstition and Idolatry and to deliver up and restore to them the Lands and Possessions now vested in his Majesty and his Subjects by the Laws and Statutes of this Realm And also to Found and Erect new Monasteries and Convents and to remove and deprive all Protestant Bishops and other Ecclesiastical persons from their Offices Benefices and Preferments And by this means to destroy his Majesties Person extirpate the Protestant Religion overthrow the Rights Liberties and Properties of all his Majesties good Subjects Subvert the lawful Government of this Kingdom and subject the same to the Tyranny of the See of Rome 3. That the said Conspirators and their Complices and Confederates Traiterously had and held several Meetings Assemblies and Consultations wherein it was Contrived and Designed among them what means should be used and what Persons and Instruments should be Employed to Murder his Majesty And did then and there resolve to effect it by Poisoning Shooting Stabbing or some such like ways and means and offered Rewards and Promises of advantage to several persons to execute the same and hired and imployed several wicked persons to go to Windsor and other places where his Majesty did reside to murder and destroy his Majesty which said persons or some of them accepted such Rewards and undertook the perpetrating thereof and did actually go to the said Places for that end and purpose 4. That the said Conspirators the better to compass their Trayterous Designs have Consulted to Raise and have procured and raised Men Money Horses Arms and Ammunition and also have made Application to and Treated and Corresponded with the Pope his Cardinals Nuncioes and Agents and with other Forreign Ministers and Persons to raise and obtain Supplies of Men Money Arms and Ammunition therewith to make levy and raise War Rebellion and Tumults within this Kingdom and to Invade the same with
after having required from him all possible obligations of Secrecy he told him plainly what great benefits would accrew to himself and what advantage to the Catholick Cause if he would make himself and the Nation happy by undertaking to kill the King of England who was an Heretick and consequently a Rebel to God Almighty My Lord Stafford did believe the Witnesses did embrace this proposal warmly and therefore directed him to prepare to go for England and to go before hand from Paris to Deep where he would meet him and go over with him But it seems my Lord Stafford met with some diversion for he did not keep his word with him in coming and so this Gentleman being disappointed went over without him but fearing to be called upon to the same Service he returned back again suddenly and went into the French Army My Lords We shall produce these Witnesses against the Lord at the Bar and when they have proved to your Lordships what I have opened any one who was not acquainted with the Popish party would believe they would be at a loss how to acquit themselves from this Charge All manner of foul and indirect practices have been used by them to Terrifie to Corrupt and to Scandalize our Witnesses all manner of Objections have been made to our Evidence If the Witness does not come up to speak directly to every Point we are told he says nothing at all if he speaks directly they cry he is not to be believed Thus they have a ready answer to every Witness that has been or ever shall be produced either that he says nothing Material or that nothing that he says ought to have any Credit But we doubt not by this Tryal before your Lordships if we cannot stop their mouths at least to convince all the World besides of the reality of this Plot. It will be no wonder if their Confidence goes on still to frame Cavils They are used to scandalize the Government and they cannot give it over How often has His Majesty under his Great Seal published and declared this Conspiracy How often has he press'd His Parliaments to go on to bring the Conspirators to Punishment and at the opening of this very Parliament he says plainly That he does not believe himself safe from their Designs Your Lordships also have Voted the unquestionable Truth of the Plot and so have the Commons yet these men are so hardy as still to deny the plainest Truth so confirm'd as this hath been Nay My Lords Their Malice goes yet farther for they have been so Bold as to whisper up and down and industriously to spread Reports before the Trial as if this Lord at the Bar and the rest who are Impeached should certainly be acquitted We do hope to be able to detect the Authors of this great Scandal and the Commons doubt not of your Lordships Concurrence to assist them in bringing them to their deserved Punishment This is sure the first time that ever any sort of men presumed to Reflect upon the Justice of this High and Noble Court Your Ancestors my Lords did by their Honour Courage and Justice preserve our Ancestors The advantage of which We who are descended from them do now enjoy and We shall never have occasion to doubt in the least but that your Lordships will tread in their steps You have in your hands a great Opportunity to make your Zeal for Truth and for the Protestant Religion famous to Posterity No Artifice or Malice can Create the least Jealousie in us that ever your Lordships should shew any Partiality or Injustice to the Commons of England To your Judgement this Cause is submitted and when we have your Judgement we doubt not but we shall drive Popery out of this English World My Lords We shall go on to the proof of our Cause and I hope this will be a happy day to us and the whole Protestant Interest Then Mr. Treby also one of the Committee appointed for the Management of the Evidence began as followeth My Lords THese two Learned Gentlemen have fully discharged their Province I shall proceed to call our Witnesses to give their Testimony But before we produce them your Lordships will be pleased to take notice that our Evidence will consist of Two Parts general and particular the general to shew the Universal Conspiracy the particular to shew what special part this Noble Lord the Prisoner at the Bar had in it And though in the first part my Lord Stafford may not be particularly named yet that Evidence will be pertinent and proper for us to give in this Trial of my Lord Stafford for we charge him not with the Private Treason wherein he with his immediate Complices only might be concerned but it is a Treason of the Popish Faction or at least the Principal and Active Papists We lay it in our Articles of Impeachment That there was an Execrable Plot contrived and carried on by the Papists and that the Conspirators acted diverse Parts and in diverse places beyond Sea as well as here It was a Treason that did bestâ—ide two Lands England indeed was the thing aimed at the destruction of the Religion Government and Liberty of England was the End but the Means and Instruments were not Collected here only but part of them were to be brought in from abroad This is an Enterprise too extensive to be intirely manag'd by a Single Nobleman And though we look upon my Lord Stafford as a great Malefactor yet we cannot think him so great a Man as to be able within his own Sphere to compass this whole Design Should we not take this course of Evidence first to prove the General Plot it might be a great and just objection in my Lords mouth to say You charge 〈◊〉 with a Design of Subverting the Kingdom how is that possible to be undertaken by me and those I have had opportunity to converse and confederate with a mighty part of the Catholick World had need be engaged for such a purpose My Lords If this would be a material Objection from this Lord then will it be requisite for us to obviate and prevent the Objection by shewing first that there was such a grand and universal design of Papists in which this Lord was to co-operate for his distinct share though perhaps when we descend to our particular Evidence it will appear that his part hath been great and manag'd with malice as great as any My Lords We shall begin with a Witness a Gentleman whose Education has given him the opportunity of knowing the inside of their Affairs and we presume he will give you a satisfactory account his name is Mr. John Smith Lord High Steward What do you call him to Gentlemen Mr. Treby To the General Plot my Lords Lord Stafford May it please your Lordships I know not who he is nor his Name I humbly beseech your Lordships that this Witness who ever he be and all the rest that have any thing to
the business was reconciled by one Seignior Con who came over into England in the year 76. to reconcile the great Difference that was betwixt the Jesuits and the secular Clergy and between the Benedictine Monks and the Jesuits My Lords my Lord Stafford upon the perswasion of this Seignior Con as he does intimate in his letter does assure the Jesuits of his fidelity and his zeal My Lords in the year 78. I found letters from my Lord Stafford wherein he does blame Mr. Coleman's openness and his being too publick in the great Affair and that Mr. Coleman was pleased to communicate several great secrets to men of whose Fidelity his Lordship was not secure My Lords in the year 78. in the month of June my Lord Stafford the Prisoner at the Bar came to Mr. Fenwick and there received a Commission from him to pay an Army that was to be raised for the promoting of the Catholick Interest and he did assure Mr. Fenwick that he was going down into Staffordshire and there he did not question but he should have a good account how the Catholicks stood affected and he did not question but to give a good account how Affairs stood in Staffordshire Shropshire and Lancashire and this Commission to my Lord Stafford was as neer as I can remember to be Pay-Master-General of the Army My Lords among other Discourses with my Lord at the Bar he was discoursing about my Lord Duke of Norfolk and my Lord Arundel his Son and after several other passages he Fenwick was asking of him how my Lord Arundel came to have a Jesuit in his House My Lord Stafford did say that my Lord of Peterborough his Father in Law was instrumental in it on purpose to oblige the Duke of York for my Lord Arundel as I have been told kept Father Symonds in his House who to my knowledge was a Jesuit But my Lords he came to Mr. Fenwicks my Lord Stafford did by the name of Mr. Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward Were you at Fenwicks when my Lord Stafford came to his Chamber Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford is that the same Person Dr. Oats It is the same Gentleman that came there by the name of Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward And he took the Commission Dr. Oats Yes he did so L. H. Steward And he promised to effect it Dr. Oats Yes And he said that he was then going down into the Countrey and he did not doubt but at his return Grove should do the business L. H. Steward Who said so Fenwick Dr. Oats No my Lord Stafford And says Fenwick to my Lord Stafford again Sir â—tis fit that some should be here present least you fail of your Expectation or to that purpose 'T is two years since and I cannot remember the words but my Lord Stafford did say he was of necessity to go into the Country at that time And there he did write a letter to St. Omers in which he did excuse himself about a young man that was to be sent to the Jesuits Colledge whom he had taken care of another way And he desired their excuse but he would be as faithful to them as any body for all that And the same hand that wrote that letter by all the comparing I could make in my thoughts wrote all the other Letters that I saw at St. Omers and in Spain My Lords I saw my Lord Stafford at Dr. Perrotts I think verily it was in June or July 78. it was before the rising of the Parliament that sat that Summer and my Lord Stafford was discoursing of a Son he was to send over to Lisbon and he went over by the name of Sir John Stafford And after this Discourse was over they fell into a Discourse of the Affairs in hand and my Lord was mighty glad there was so good a Correspondence and Concord though my Lords it was not very great for the Jesuits have an irreconcileable Quarrel with the rest of the Clergy But my Lord did hope that their fair Correspondence might tend highly to the advancing the Catholick Cause But my Lords I have one thing more to speak as to the Discourse at Fenwicks Chamber speaking of the King he said He hath deceived us a great while and we can bear no longer Lord High Stew. Who said so Dr. Oats My Lord Stafford the Gentleman at the Bar. Lord High Stew. When was that At Dr. Perrotts Dr. Oats No I speak of a passage at Fenwick's which I had forgot My Lords this is all I can remember at present M. Foley My Lords I desire he may give an Account what letters my Lord Stafford sent to Fenwick and Ireland to pay money Dr. Oats There was some money returned but it was no great Sum and it was about private business Mr. Morgan was to receive it I chanced to have the money in my own keeping Mr. Fenwick gave it me to pay to Mr. Morgan and the letter in which the Sum was mentioned did give them an Account for it was out of Staffordshire that he found things stand in a very good state there but I being not within Mr. Morgan called on Mr. Fenwick for the money which I returned to him when he had paid it Lord Stafford My Lords I do in the first place desire to know where Mr. Fenwick lived Lord High Stew. Where did Mr. Fenwick live when you saw my Lord at his Chamber and the Commission delivered Dr. Oats His Lordship I suppose knows very well where he lived he lived in Drury-lane Lord Stafford I will submit to any thing if I ever saw the man or heard of him till the Discovery of the Plot. Dr. Oats He came to him by the name of Thompson Lord High Stew. Your Lordship does not observe your Lordship says that you never knew any Fenwick but your Lordship knew one Thompson and that Thompson was Fenwick Lord Stafford I did know one Thompson but that Thompson I knew was an â—nglish Merchant in Brussels and not a Jesuit Dr. Oats I can't say what my Lord knows that he knew Fenwick to be a Jesuit but he knew one Thompson that was Fenwick the Jesuit Lord Stafford I never heard of the Name till this Plot. Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please I will give you a reason why I believe he knew him to be a Jesuit because the Society was very often in their mouths in their Discourses which gives me a ground to believe he knew him to be what he was but my Lord he took his Commission from him Lord Stafford I desire he may be asked L. H. Steward Good my Lord raise your voice for I am come half way to hear you Lord Stafford Pray my Lords give me leave to ask him whether Dr. Oats hath not said several times since I was first imprisoned that he never saw me in his life I think I was imprisoned the 21. of October 78. Dr. Oats I never said any such thing
they have can in the least absolve me of my Allegigiance And I do acknowledge the King is my Soveraign and I ought to obey him as far as the Law of the Land obliges any Subject of his to obey him whether I have taken the Oath of Allegiance I appeal to your Lordships to be my Witnesses and if I did not take it a thousand times for my Allegiance to the King if required I think I should deserve a thousand Deaths and all the Torments in the world for refusing it My Lords These Gentlemen here did begin their Charge Serjeant Maynard and Sir Francis Winnington with telling your Lordships there was an horrid Design to murder the King to alter the Government and introduce the Popish Religon This they say was ingaged in by the Roman Catholicks that all the Church of Rome were the Contrivers of it for they tell your Lordships the whole Body hath been ingaged in it and they have given you many Proofs by Witnesses examined the first day of a General Plot what Credit you will give to them I leave to your Lordships in the end of the Case but still they said it was the Body of the Roman Catholicks in England or the Papists or what they call them that were the Plotters in this Design But I beseech your Lordships how am I concerned in it for I must say to your Lordships they have not offered one proof that I am of that Religion So that though any of you should have seen me at the Exercises of that Religion or otherwise know it of your selves yet if there be no Proof judicially before you you are not to take notice of it I have heard if a man be accused of a Crime and be to be tryed and no Evidence come in if every man of the Jury were sure that the Fact was done yet they must go upon the Evidence produced to them and not upon their own knowledge So then no Evidence being produced before your Lordships about my being a Papist you are not to take me for such an one But my Lords if I were of that Church and that were never so well proved too I hope I have an advantage in it that I have kept my self from being poysoned with so wicked a Principle or ingaged with the rest in so ill a thing My Lords I am here accused of having endeavoured to kill the King I find by the Law upon reading Sir Edward Coke since my Imprisonment That all Accusations of Treason ought to be accompanied with Circumstances antecedent concomitant and subsequent but I conceive my Lords there is no tittle of any such thing proved against me The whole compass of my life from my infancy hath been clear otherwise In the beginning of the late unhappy times the late King of happy and glorious memory did me the honour to make me a Peer and thinking that my presence might rather prejudice him than serve him my Wife and I settled at Antwerp when the War begun where I might have lived though obscurely yet safely but I was not satisfied in my Conscience to see my King in so much disorder and I not endeavour to serve him what I could to free him from his troubles And I did come into England and served his Majesty faithfully and loyally as long as he lived And some of your Lordships here know whether I did not wait upon the now King in his Exile from which he was happily restored which shews I had no ill intention then My Lords I hope this I have said does shew that my life hath given no countenance to this Accusation but clear contrary to what these I hope I may call them so and doubt not to prove them so perjured Villains say against me My Lords After I had this misfortune to be thus accused about a month or six weeks after your Lordships were pleased to send two Members of this honourable Body to me I do not see them at present here to examine me about the Plot they were my Lord of Bridgwater and my Lord of Essex if they be here I appeal to them what I did say These two after they had examined me told me they did believe and could almost assure me That if I would confess my Fault and let them know the particulars of it your Lordships would intercede with the King for my Pardon but I then as I ought asserted my own Innocency Not long after the King out of his Grace and Goodness to me sent six of the Council to the Tower to offer me That though I was never so guilty yet if I would confess I should have my Pardon I did then consider with my self I could not imagine what ground there was to believe your Lordships could have Evidence of what there was not to bring me in Guilty and thereupon I was so far from being able to make a Discovery that I could not invent any thing that might save my life if I would My Lords I was seven days in the Countrey after I heard of the Plot if I had known my self guilty I should surely have run away As I came to London when I was at Lichfield there met me two of my Lords They told me and so did a Gentleman of the House of Commons how much there was in the Plot which if I had had an hand in it would certainly make me fly for it I have ever heard when a man is accused or suspected of a Crime Flight is a great sign of Guilt and that it is often asked of the Jury though there be no certain positive Evidence of the Fact Whether a man fled or no As that is a sign of Guilt so Remaining is a sign of Innocency If then after Notice I come to Town and suffer my self to be taken if after Imprisonment and Accusation I refuse my Pardon and yet had been Guilty I ought to die for my Folly as well as my Crime My Lords 't is a great Offence to commit Treason and a great Addition to continue obstinate when upon Acknowledgment a man can save his life nay my Lords if I should have refused these Offers and yet known my self Guilty I had at the same time been guilty of one of the greatest Sins in the world as being the cause of my own Death And as I hold next to Treason Murder the greatest sin so I hold of all Murders Self-murder to be the greatest nay I do not think any man living can pardon that Sin of Murder And I do profess to your Lordships in the presence of Almighty God that if I could immediately by the Death of this impudent Fellow Dugdale who hath done me so much wrong make my self the greatest man in the world that is or ever was I profess before God I would not I cannot say my Charity is so great but that I should be glad to see him suffer those Punishments the Law can inflict upon him for his Crimes but his Death I would not have
redily produce them but for my self I must answer and I think my Companions will say so too that we do not know where these Affidavits are nor of any Variation in those Affidavits from what is now sworn but whatever they were they were taken for the Information of the House of Commons who are the Prosecutors in this Cause and who are no Judges Now if my Lord will bring any Witness that will say this Witness of ours did before a Justice of Peaee depose so and so and says the contrary now there might be then just reasons to look after these Affidavits and to have them produced but upon a bare imagination that there is a Variance where in truth there is none and the Truth may otherwise be known to desire that these Affidavits that never were before you should be produced whether such a Suggestion is to be admitted I humbly submit it to your Lordships Consideration L. Stafford My Lords if these Gentlemen that are the Managers for the House of Commons will aver to your Lordships that there is no Variation in them I will submit to them and be quiet if they will say it was not debated in the House whether he should amend or no. L. H. Stew. Look you he puts it upon you so far Gentlemen that if you will take it upon you to aver that there is no Variation between those Affidavits upon which you grounded your Impeachment and the Evidence you have given upon the Trial of your Impeachment he will not give you the trouble L. Stafford I beseech you let me say one word my Lords I have been thus long a Prisoner I was as far from being proceeded against now as any of the rest of the Lords in the Tower till Turbervile came in with his Discovery and I believe I am now called the sooner which I am glad of and I give the Gentlemen thanks for it upon the Affidavit of Turbervile I desire that Affidavit and though it be true the House of Commons give no Oath yet they appointed two Members of the House that were Justices of the Peace of Middlesex to take it upon Oath and he desired the next day to amend it and I put my self upon them whether this be not true L. H. Stew. What say you Sir to it Sir W. Jones My Lord I cannot answer because I don't hear L. Stafford My Lord I say this I do observe that Mr. Turbervile whose face I never saw in my life that I know of till to day nor never spoke a word to him and I shall prove that no Servant that ever I had see him did depose for the purpose to day that he was in the Years 73. and 76. in such and such places and that he did speak with me at Doway and Paris and to Morrow recollecting his Notes he found he was mistaken in his Affidavit that he had made before and desired to mend it and brought it to the Years 72. and 75. there was some Debate in the House about it whether they should permit him to mend it I appeal to all the Gentlemen whether it were not so L. H. Stew. Your labour is to have two Affidavits that you do presume will do your business in order to the finding out a variety of time of his being at Doway or at Paris That which does press your Lordship we know in Turbervile's Evidence is That at Paris in the Room below of your Lodging you encouraged him to kill the King and you were to have met him at Diep to know his mind but you came not and he went away if you have it in the Affidavit quite contrary to this you say somewhat L. Staff My Lords I beseech you it presses me and every man in England not to be run down by a Fellow that forswears himself for him to swear one thing to day and another thing to morrow is Perjury L. H. Stew. What say you to it Gentlemen Sir W. Jones What was done in the House of Commons it does not become any of us that are Members to disclose But I have heard and will admit it that in the Depositions the Witness made before a Justice of Peace there was a year put down which he going home and upon sight of Letters and Papers found it to be mistaken he comes the next day and desires to alter it if this be for my Lords Service we shall grant it Mr. Serj. Maynard 'T is on or about too L. H. Stew. What say you my Lord now L. Staff I do say my Lord I am informed by what I have heard cursorily for I have not seen one of the House of Commons before the day of my Tryal that though in his second Deposition he named the years 72. and 75. yet I can prove him perjured as to what he hath sworn here to day L. H. Stew. Since 't is insisted upon Gentlemen that there is a Variety in the last Deposition from what he swore at first what can you say why he should not have the avail of his Exception Sir Will. Jones My Lords whether your Lordships will think fit to consider by what ways and means the House of Commons informed themselves in order to Impeachments I submit to you and for those things that still remain in the hands of the Commons I suppose you will be pleased to consider how you can send for them to inform you We would not be mistaken in the matter let not any one that hears us think that we are conscious there is the least Variation nay we are confident if the thing were produced it would turn to my Lords prejudice but what is done in this Case may be a President for the future and therefore we cannot without resorting to the House consent to deliver any thing the House took for their Information Therefore if your Lordships stand upon it and incline to have it done we must resort to the House to ask their leave whether we shall do it or no. L. H. Stew. I cannot tell what my Lords will incline to do but I desire when you are gone back you will consider how far it will make the matter easie to my Lord. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we can give no Answer to that till we have attended our House Mr. Serj. Maynard I desire your Lordships to consider what a piece of cunning he hath put upon both Houses to pass by his villifying our Witnesses which I may say was not comely But if he makes any Question it must be put to the Houses upon supposition to be a Question and so he would bring things only to this issue to put off the Cause for to day He ought to put that which might probably be something of a Question Let him instance in particulars and make out his Evidence not seign things to put off the Cause for ought I see 't is to no other end and 't is a Jesuitical trick I think L. Stafford I feign nothing I have
the Conviction of Tasborough and Price to corrupt Dugdale a principal Witness as to this Plot. I only mention these particulars my Lords and certainly as you are a great Court of Record you will take notice of them It would be a hard thing perhaps to spend the time in reading all since all of them are made known to the world already but we shall in the course of our Evidence produce them and you may read such of them as you please All the use we make of them is for the proof of the general Plot which is requisite to be done for it will be hard to believe the Prisoner Guilty of the Plot if there were no such Plot at all My Lords we shall make appear to you things which have not yet been brought into Judgment In the year 76. we shall prove by a Witness that was then abroad and discoursed with Anderton Campion Green and several other Priests and Jesuits that they did acquaint him that there would be great alteration in England ere long that the King was a Heretick and Excommunicated and might be destroyed and this Doctrine they continually and industriously preached And they further said if once the King were removed who alone stood in the way their Religion must needs flourish for this Reason as the Witnesses will speak that the Duke of York was on their side My Lords We shall prove that they had in England men no less industrious amongst them some whereof have been Executed Gavan by name who made it his business to go up and down in several Counties of this Kingdom to prove by Scripture Councils and Examples That it was a lawful undertaking to kill His Majesty These things I name as necessary in order to introduce our particular Evidence I am unwilling to dwell longer upon this point of the general Plot. I shall produce the Records and produce our several Witnesses Mr. Oats and others that will give you a full and plain Account of it My Lords Having done with the general Plot I come now to open the particular Evidence against my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar. As to him my Lords our Evidence stands not upon Conjectures or upon meer Probability because this Lord is as we well know a zealous Papist and hath owned himself so but we have express particular Proofs against his Person My Lords we have one Witness to produce to your Lordships who will prove that in September 78. there was a Consult of some Priests and other Conspirators at Tixall in Staffordshire my Lord Aston's House for killing of the King where my Lord Stafford was present And by a Discourse in the same month we shall prove what reasons this Lord did give why he and their Party undertook the Murdering of the King because he said That he and many Catholâ—ck Families had no Recompence for their Loyalty but if any thing fell it was disposed of to Rebels and Traytors This he resented deeply but above all the Obligation of his Conscience and of his Religion persuaded him to it and confirmed him in his resolution to go on in this horrid Design My Lords we will go farther and prove that this Lord offered 500 l. out of his own Purse to carry on the Plot and particularly this part of it for killing the King We shall produce to your Lordships a Witness to whom he made this offer as looking upon him to be a faithful man and having received so great a Character of him from one Evers a Priest that he thought he might safely communicate the matter to him and the Argument he urged to persuade the Witness besides the 500 l. which he said upon his application to Harcouâ—t and Ireland they should pay him was this that others as well as he was employed in the same Design that it was the only way to establish the Romish Religion in England that he would lay an everlasting obligation upon all the Persons of that Persuasion and that he should not only have his Pardon but be Canonized for it My Lords This is the substance of the Testimony of the first Witness which we shall produce against my Lord Stafford and that is so express as I think it can hardly be answered My Lords Our next Witness says thus for I shall but open the substance of what they say In June or July 1678. there were several Letters from this Lord at the Bar to the Jesuits in London in which his Lordship did declare his readiness to serve them in their great Design and in June 78. the latter end of the month my Lord Stafford came to Mr. Fenwicks Chamber in Drury-Lane he went not then by the name of my Lord Stafford but by the name of Mr. Howard of Effingham and there he did receive a Commission from Fenwick to be Paymaster-General of the Army which was to be raised for the carrying on the Plot. His Lordship told them he was then going into the Country but he hoped he should soon hear from them that they had done the business at least that it would be done before his Lordship did return To which Fenwick made answer Your Lordship must look after the business as well as other Persons and there will be need of some to Countenance it in Town thereupon the Lord the Prisoner at the Bar said That they had been often deceived by this Prince and been patient with him but they would bear no longer but were now resolved to do the Work without delay for their patience was worn out Several other particular Circumstances the Witnesses will acquaint your Lordships withal which I shall not take up your time with My Lords We have a third Witness as considerable and particular as any of the rest one that lived three years in the Lady Powis House had his Education there and was persuaded by that Lady and by one Morgan a Jesuit to become a Fryer and to that end was sent to Doway But not liking to continue at Doway he will tell you the reason why he escaped to France and at Paris came to his Brother a Benedictine Monk there who advised him to go for England But whilst he staid at Paris this Gentleman by the means of his Brother and other Priests grew into a great samiliarity with my Lord Stafford who was then in France and who at last came to have such a great Confidence in him that his Lordship could not hold but told him that though he had disobliged all his Friends by his going away from Doway yet he had something to propose to him which would be a means to reconcile him to hâ—s Friends and bring him into preserment and into the friendship of all good Catholicks whom he would oblige by it The Gentleman was willing to embrace so happy an opportunity and desired to know what it was could procure him so great a good My Lord Stafford the Prisoner at the Bar told him It was a thing of very great Importance and