titles of ciuill honour giuen to princes as that of maiestie highnesse grace and such like Buchan de iure regni and with the title of Lord giuen to Noblemen and whether this poynt of discipline doeth not shewe that these fellowes meane to deale with Lordes in time as well as now they are busie with bishops 65 Quaere of master Egerton the renowned paraphraste at the Blacke Friers whether it be agreed vpon in any of their synoddicall assemblies that it shall not be lawfull for her Maiestie or the princes of this Realme hereafter to goe to the Parliament with such honourable attendance as heretofore they haue vsed the first day that it is holden in that hee did write to his brother Fenne as misliking the same and sayde 2 Eger to Fenne that shee went thither 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is with great ostentation and pompe which wordes Saint Paul vseth condemning the vanitie of 3 Actes 25.23 Agryppa and Beronice 66 Quaere why Ecclesiasticall iudges may not proceede in causes ex officio to examine men vpon their othes aswell as 4 Caluins epistles fol. pag 64. Caluin did at Geneua who put the chiefe men of the towne to their othes whether they had danced or no in widowe Balthazar 's house 67 Quaere whether it be not as lawfull for euery consistorie to depose a ciuill magistrate from his place as it was for 5 Ibidem Caluin to cause one of the sindickes of Geneua for dauncing priuately in the widowe Balthazar 's house to be deposed and if dauncing be so punished whether greater offences in princes shall not be more deepely punished 68 Quaere whether that godly and zealous man of God as they call him Giles Wigginton was not 6 Conspiracie for discipline acquainted with Copingers pretence of extraordinary calling and confirmed him in it whether hee brought not Hacket first acquainted with Copinger and Arthington and iustified vnto them Hackets pretended torments and whether he was not acquainted with their cryes made in the streetes and did not vnder his hand set downe certaine reasons to proue that vpon occasion men of extraordinarie callings might crye vp and downe the streetes and whether also he made not certeine rimes and caused them to be printed and sent them abroade a little before Copingers Arthingtons proclamation wherein is conteined That a countrie clowne should teach a prince to weare a crowne And whether Hacket was not that clowne and whether Hacket Copinger and Arthington were not with him in the counter the morning before they beganne to rise and whether these practises and seditious rimeries be sufferable by the lawes of the Consistorie 69 Quaere whether Hacket in sondrie of his examinations confessed not that the godly and zealous preacher of discipline Gi. 1 Conspiracie for discipline Wigginton affirmed That if the Magistrates gouerned not well the people might drawe themselues together to see a reformatiō made whether Hacket casting some doubtes and as it should seeme mentioning her Maiestie Wigginton answered not thus you speake of a Queene of a maygame whether Hacket also affirmed not that if Wigginton were well sifted he would declare matter of treason which if the rest of his fellowes had not bene in time reueiled would haue cost a number of innocent men their blood and finally whether these be holy practises for the glorie of their discipline 17 Quaere whether Pet. Wen. writ not a letter to Copinger dated the 25. of Ianuarie 1590. wherein he taketh notice That Copinger was labouring about matters of importance and prayeth that God would direct his labours both in matter and manner and willeth him to vse good aduice and then saith as Iosuah said sometime but in a farre diuerse course be bolde and of good courage feare not to be discouraged And whether he be not to be dealt withall as an abettor to the soresaid treasonable practises for the glorious cause of pretended sinceritie 17 Quaere whether Io. Thr. was not well acquainted with Hacket Copinger and Arthingtons intentes in that Copinger writ thus vnto him My owne deare 2 Note the brotherhood of puritans whereto it tendeth brother my selfe and my two brethen who lately were together with you in Knightrider streete he meaneth Hacket and Arthington doe much desire conference with you the busines is the Lordes owne and he doeth deale in it himselfe in a strange extraordinarie manner in poore and simple creatures much is done since you sawe vs which you would reioyce to heare of Likewise let it be inquired whether he be not an abettor and concelour of their trecherous practises and whether he holdeth that he ought not in conscience to reueile his deare brethrens treasons 72 Quaere whether the said Io. Thr. did not write a letter with his owne hand to Copinger dated the 18 of the fist 1 This is the new absurd consistorian stile moneth he meaneth as I suppose May which was little more then sixe weekes before the outrage committed by the new disciplinarian prophets and whether in the same letter deuised as may be suspected in answere of Copingers letter He reioyceth not that Copinger would 2 All this is in his owne letter to be showen vnder his hand writing vouchsafe to call him brother and saith that at his being at London he heard some buzzes abroade of a sole and singuler course and wisheth that all that beare good will to the holy cause in that perilous age would take both their eyes in their handes and be sure of their gounde and warrant before they stirred to put matters in execution and proceedeth in these wordes I know my good broiher that the greatest workes of the Lorde are wrought by the weakest instruments c. and therefore were it not for my sinnes and vnworthines I could easily perswade myselfe in regarde of my weakenesse that the Lorde might effect something by me c. but this worke that you speake of howsoeuer the instrument be compassed with weakenes must sure bee wrought by a more 3 A sanctified puritan sanctified heart then myselfe can yet boast of and therefore though in affection and goodwill I ioyne yet I resigne the honour of the worke to those that the Lorde hath more thereto enabled c. Salute good Giles with many thankes whose debtor I am in the Lorde blessing vpon Sion confusion vpon Babell Quaere I say these thinges considered whether the writer was not accessarie to the saide conspiracie and a principall man in encouraging the actors which hee calleth brethren in their wicked courses and whether all his Libels and scoffes published vnder the name of Martin as namely his theses protestations dialogues arguments laying men out in their colours and all his doings tending to the aduauncement of the holy cause as they call it did not tend wholy to an insurrection and whether hee liueth not vnder mercifull gouernours that call not the man to answere for
Church and schooles are contemned I would I might not say discouraged they are made markes for licentious youthes armed with malice to shoote their boltes against the lawes are not onely contemned but most boldly oppugned yea with such confidencie that law is now accounted disorder and faction and tumult termed 2 Petition to her Maiestie reformation and libellers in euill time called reformers what resteth for them to worke but that al wise and learned men being put from gouernment the seely sots which these call elders and certaine famous authors of popular faction should be placed in the highest offices or else that lawes being not executed or Iudges crossed in executing of iustice the contumacious might liue as they list wherein they seeke nothing but that eyther the forreyne enemie may oppresse vs or els inward tumult and disorder consume vs. But I doubt not but her Maiestie and all those that beare office vnder her will take speedie order that it is not alreadie taken many do wonder some doe complayne but the clemencie of her Maiesties times and her benigne nature doth afford vs answere she will not haue any complaine that in this case any are punished but such as are obstinate heynous and notorious disturbers of the state because they were not at the first knowen for such shee would not haue them punished for such besides this the height of the stile and the loude bragges they made of their discipline made many beleeue they did it eyther of simplicitie or zeale or error few suspected the greedines of some and malice and ambition of others their notorious hypocrisie could not of long time be discouered but now their leudnes is apparent and their false visage is dismasked let them therefore beware that they abuse not the clemencie of the times or hope for continuance of vndeserued fauour The vanitie of their bragges and weakenesse of their cause is euident to all that are not eyther wilfully blinded or naturally ignorant All the demonstrations of their discipline are discifred and stand confuted they doe not so much as goe about to defend them their whole plots of false discipline lye razed they cannot say a word for them in this late petition wherein they had occasion to shewe their skill they haue not so much as answered one argument brought by vs against them The defence of Bezamade for his Aldermen most weake and simple as in a desperate cause they haue intreated Beza to say somewhat wherein we may see that their forces are spent to the last man yea so spent that they haue no hope of recouerie for what saith he good man hee telleth vs a long tale of his Geneuian deuises hut neyther doth hee answere our arguments nor bringeth scripture fathers or reason for his cause vnlesse wee beleeue him on his bare word the controuersie is at an end call you this answering this is rather the playne ouerthrowe of his cause for while hee went about to answere he hath confirmed our cause saying nothing either for himselfe or against vs but what he in his olde age dreameth where was T.C. that valiant champion of discipline all this while where was W. Tr. W. Ch. D. Sp. could not one of them speake for their cause but they must send to Geneua for a speaker it is too great and notable a confession of the weakenesse of their cause As for him or that I mistake not them that made the petition lately printed and pretended to be presented to her Maiestie on the behalfe of the Puritans they doe not deserue the name of speakers vnlesse it be among Puritans where euery one that can prate is sayde to speake For what say they for their cause their onely reason is because Caluin Beza Daneus Carpentier Golart Perot Tauergues Pollan Sneccan and a number of other authors of whose names and gestes we should neuer haue heard if these mē had not in this cause brought their names to light doe speake somewhat for their consistorie that therefore we are to like of it A goodly reason yet such a one as I thinke they will not admitte against their discipline For albeit Master R. M.B.M.G. M.A. M.H. M.D. M.W. and infinite other learned and good preachers among vs yea such as one of them is to be vaed against many of these ignorant and presumptuous disciplinarians do like of the present gouernment yet are they not therwith satisfied nay albeit all the ancient Fathers and acts of Counsels do like of the auctoritie gouernment of Bishops yet are these fellowes stil contending against it That the same was established by most learned and godly men that in Q. Maries time gaue their liues for the testimonie of the trueth they litle weigh nay they neither care for them nor their authoritie With what face then can they alledge Golart Pollan Sneccan and a number of birdes of like feather and men neither wise nor learned nor that haue ground of antiquitie or reason seeing they renounce not onely the authoritie of our men more learned then they but of our Martyrs more holy men then they yea and all the writings of the Fathers and actes of Counsels speaking of the authoritie and state of Bishops and such a gouernment as we haue In times past they were wont to tell vs of certaine lawes established by God himselfe and made vante that they would proue their discipline out of Gods word Why then are they now mute why are not these lawes and this worde brought forth why are they silent in bringing forth these mightie reasons when all is come to all must we rest on Golart Pollan Tauergues and Sneccans three or foure odde compagnions idle conceits there can nothing be deuised more absurd nor sencelesse Therefore hauing nothing to say in defence of their cause now in a desperate rage they begin to reuell not onely at Bishops but also at Lawes and Iudges and the ordinarie tryals of this Realme The drift of the petition is to shew that Iohn Vdall was wrongfully condemned they insinuate therein that the Iudges were either corrupted or blinded and that the euidence was wrested They say in plaine tearmes that Iudges haue no skill to deale with such fellowes as Iohn Vdall another kinde of man percase then he is taken to be Is hee trowe you any of Hackets or Coppingers consortes to bring Bishops into hatred they haue after their petition collected diuers Articles and by them and by certaine calumnious interrogatories haue gone about to bring them in disgrace with the multitude that if they cannot haue their desire of their celestiall consistorie they may be yet reuenged of such as they take to be the hinderers of their purposes Whose malice to encounter as before I haue answered their cauils against the ecclesiasticall gouernment of our Church to the vtter disgrace of the Consistorie so now hauing other occasions to print a discourse against Bellarmine and forreine aduersaries of our Church I haue thought good to
well Bishops and Priestes and not these newe Aldermen which albeit they bee mute in pulpits yet are they mouthy inough in Consistories The opinion of Augustine concerning the estate of bishops is sufficiently knowen for hee thrusteth them among heretickes that deny their superioritie In which croude let this Libeller and his fellowe T. C. goe packe out of the Church together with Aerius their ringleader and an olde master of an hospitall and a famous hereticke himselfe was also a bishop and gouerned his clergie and church with as great power as nowe doe our byshops neither doeth he in eyther of the places 2 De opere monach c. 16. de ciuit der lib. 19. c. 19. quoted say any thing against them Hee condemneth not the state of bishops but their worldlinesse and not the dignitie of bishops but such as sought honour and would not endure labour which negligence wee doe not defend in any neither was hee so scrupulous in distinguishing ciuill and ecclesiastiall causes as these seeme to be for in his booke de opere Monachorum alledged by this Petitioner he doth declare that hee dealt himselfe in ciuill causes notwithstanding he was a bishop and that he hoped God woulde reward him for it Neither is there in 3 In Tit. ad Ocean Hieroms whole workes any worde sounding to the disgrace of bishoppes Hierome maketh the termes of Bishops and Priestes common in the Apostles time but that bishops and priestes should nowe be equall in power and dignitie hee neuer concluded nay hee saith that the superioritie of bishops is an Apostolicall 1 Ep. 85. tradition and borrowed of the analogie betwixt the Lawe and the Gospell and confesseth that it began in the Apostles time accordingly hee vseth Damasus Bishop of Rome and all bishops with great respect The authoritie and credite of Ambrose both with the Emperour and people and his iurisdiction in ecclesiasticall causes was farre greater then that which our Bishops haue Is it then thinke you likely that a bishop woulde speake against Bishops nay he is sayde himselfe to haue exercised the Church censures against the Emperour and giueth ordination to Bishops and calleth them the Apostles successors The place of Ambrose commonly alledged 2 Ep. 33. against Bishops ciuill iurisdiction maketh nothing against the state of Bishops for in England no Bishop hath ciuill iurisdiction as hee is a Bishop but as hee hath it by commission which to refuse were not onely a weakening but a deniall of loyaltie neither doth Ambrose forbid any to take ciuill iurisdiction but to followe worldly cares and to giue ouer their ministerie and as diuers of this faction haue done to throwe off the robes of the ministerie and to runne in their lether Ierkins after worldly gaine and pleasure That Ambrose esteemed highly the office of bishops is apparant for hee 3 In eph 4. saith that those that are nowe called bishops succeede in the charge and place of gouernment of the Apostles Chrysostome taketh to himselfe the power of excommunication yeeldeth to bishops the power of ordeining 4 In 1. Tim 4. epist Paul ad Philip. homil ad pop Antioch ministers ouer whom he giueth them authoritie himselfe was a bishop of great power and authoritie hee condemneth certaine heretikes which would not yeelde the due titles to bishops but called them onely 5 In Psal 13. reuerentia tua dignitas tua and such like termes condemned by Chrysostome reuerend and worshipfull euen like to the platformers what shame then haue these fellowes that blush not to make either so holy a bishop contrary to himselfe or manifestly to belye him and slaunder him wherefore let the words of Chrysostem against bishops be brought forth if hee bring them not Hom. 2. in epist ad Phil. euery man will take him for a plaine false coyner of authorities which nowe is in part apparant he saith that the names of bishops and priests were all one but that all bishops and priests should haue equall authoritie he saith not nor euer thought That Gregory the great is alledged against bishops is a matter most miraculous for in his time the bishoppes of Rome were come to extraordinarie greatnes incroched not only vpon their neighbors but also vpō most christian Churches so far was he frō condēning the state of bishops in the preface to his dialogues if they be his as is most vnlike he reprehendeth those that waxed old in worldly desires which neither in bishops nor other is to be alowed against episcopal authoritie he saith nothing the power of bishops ouer priests euery wherein his epistles he commendeth The quotation out of Hillary maketh nothing to the purpole hee reprehendeth Constantius the Emperor for aduancing bishops aboue the degree of bishops but that maketh for bishops and not against them for hee disaloweth not the state but the Emperors too much forwardnesse in giuing Arrian bishops too much honour and credite The Libeller hath a strange sight in 1 Ep. 67. Synesius if he thinke that he spake any thing against bishops percase he had on his 2 Those dreames that passe through horny doores as Homer feigneth are vntrue for horne is not trans parent horne spectacles when hee read them without such sight nothing is to be found in Synesius against our cause If he would haue made any conclusion out of him he would haue acknowledged so much him selfe He alledgeth with like iudgment Nazianzen his oration aduersus Maximum yet in all his works is there not any such oration found there is an oration of such matters as Gregory did against Maximus but concerning the superioritie of bishops there is nothing therein least of all any thing against bishops neither is it like he would speake against bishops himself being a bishop alowing the state of bishops he gouerned with authoritie his 1 Cum auctoritate hic praesidemus haec multis ex vobis tamquam lege sancimus Nazianz. in orat de modest in disputat seruanda words were obserued as lawes in the church he saith 2 Ibidem there is order while bishops commaund and others are ruled of such as these felowes are that wil neither obserue order nor rule he complaineth and commendeth that which they despise only he speaketh against ambitious seeking the greatest bishopricks and highest places wishing that the principality should be remoued rather then such incōueniences admitted Origene 3 In Esaiam hom 6. giueth most ample titles authority to bishops euen in the same place where he is supposed to speake against thē onely he would not haue them insult nor tyrannise ouer the people which the bishops of England neither doe nor can doe according to lawes but the Aldemen of the consistorie whose word is proofe and will law and against whose wrongs there is no sufficient remedie by appeale they do properly tyrannife yea oligarchize and therefore against such cruell tyrants Origen declaymeth and we
Iudges and their sentence pronounced against Vdal but also to maintaine and iustifie their vpright and good dealing therein It may seeme strange that lawe should not haue strength sufficient to defend it selfe against the malice of these men But seeing the vigour thereof is either dulled or abated and men suffered to declaime against Iudges lawes let vs assay whether with reason argument we can defend lawe A matter albeit hard where the readers are such as repugne against lawe and are led forth without reason yet very easie to be effected where those that shall iudge vnderstand both lawe and reason vpon confidence therefore of indifferent discrete and wise mens iudgement I commend this chapter folowing to thy reading CAP. 3. That the proceeding against Iohn Vdall was iust and lawful and that the plat formers are iustly charged with breach of diuers lawes and guiltie of faction sedition and diuers other crimes notwithstanding the exceptions in that behalfe brought by the petitioner or others against the lawes and Iudges I Would not haue thought that any had bene so lewde as publikely to condemne Iudges of iniustice or so foolish as to oppose themselues against the execution of iustice had not this lewde libell declared the platformers to be of a strange humor and malcontent both with Iudges and lawes By these I doe see that it sorteth wel that men that desire innouation shoulde speake against lawes that such as doe liue in disorder and are voyde of reason should speake against Iustice reason Iohn Vdall a man vtterly vnlearned and very factious was as you haue heard condemned vpon the statute of 23 Eliz. 2 And for diuers other disorders mentioned in the inditement That it was iustly equally done the greatnes of the offence being faction and sedition the sincere and vpright dealing of those honorable persons that then were Iudges the allowance of others the most reuerend and learned Iudges in the land resoluing on the case the indifferencie of the Iurie the clemencie of her Maiesties gouernement the witnesses and proofes the fauour offered to the prisoner the obstinacie of the partie the testimonie of all that was present can declare Against all these a certaine quidam libeller lately distracted of his wittes and yet not well recouered taketh on him to argue boldly malapertly yea very loosely and foolishly But his malapert saucie dealing I leaue to gouernours to be considered his loose and foolish dispute I doubt not to make manifest to all that shall reade this discourse His first exception against the sentence pronounced against Vdal is For that he diffamed not her Maiestie which the law prouided for but Bishops that are no parte of her Maiesties body politike nor any of the three estates of this realme wherein he doeth not onely deny thinges true and affirme things false but also talke of lawe like a stranger ignorant in lawe and alledge an impertinent and not concludent matter That he diffamed her Maiestie appeared at the time of his triall by his writings and out of his seditious sermons and speeches proued by diuers witnesses and cannot now be called in question seing he that speaketh against her Maiesties supreme gouernement in ecclesiasticall causes her lawes her proceedings and all those ecclesiasticall officers which rule vnder her as Iohn Vdall and his felowes vse to doe diffameth her Maiestie yea and that much more then if he should touch her priuate person for that concerneth her gouernement and therein is she touched especially as a prince and her princely authoritie maiestie disgraced And therefore seeing that is the common case of all the puritane faction all they that write for their pure gouernement against this state are diffamers of her Maiesties princely dignitie Secondly hee denieth the Bishops to be one of the three estates of Parliament and the Cleargie to be one of the three estates of the Realme contrarie to the reckonning of this Realme and common speach and actes of parliament whose common stile is the Lordes spirituall and temporall and commons of the realme contrarie to the vse of the French from whence wee had the 1 I assemblee destroys estats viz. le elergè la noblesse cominautè worde and which call the parliament the assemble of the three estates and contrarie to the reckonning of all Christendome that deuide the realme into the ecclesiasticall state nobilitie commons yea contrarie to Christianitie For who will recken the estate without mention of religion but such as seeke nothing but their cause and profite without consideration of religion in the actes of parliament made at Edingburgh anno 1584 these wordes are often repeated His maiestie and the three estates And againe Our souereigne Lord and his three estates in this present parliament The heathens reckened but two estates to wit the 2 Senatum plebem nobilitie and commons Christians euer reckoned the ecclesiastical state one neither doeth any lawyer say contrarie 2 P. anno 36 37. h. 8. f. 60. In a certaine report of Iudge Dyer we reade that one certaine lawyer is of opinion for reason he bringeth none that the parliament consisteth of three partes the Prince the Lords the commons but we reason of the parliament considered as a bodie of it selfe beside the prince as it is in commō speach considered for so we say the king in his parliament assembled at Westminster or the king to the parliamēt or parliamēt to the king In which kindes of speach if you make the king a part of the parliamēt you make the prince to treat with himselfe which cannot be Besides that you iumble the lords spiritual temporal together make but one state of them which is cōtrarie to cōmon speach Last of all you make the prince that is head equal with the partes and make others as good as him which is the endeuour of this libeller and therfore I say that the prince is head of that body that consisteth of three estates viz. the lordes spirituall temporal commons which cōcurring make lawes to binde the realme neither is it true that the bishops by law may be excluded out of parliamēt For in al parliamēts ordinarily their assent is set downe in tearmes What is done or what hath bene done in 1 Iewel def of the Apol. fact I will not say So the 2 Certeine statutes haue bene made by the king lords spirituall and commons others by the king lordes spirituall and temporall lordes or cōmons may also be excluded but we reason of law And if the bishops may bee excluded thē may the nobilitie be excluded also For the lords consist part of bishops part of temporal lords both haue equal right That the bishops cannot be excluded by right appeareth by the 3 Throughout all statutes lawes and customes of this land Sometime they departed because they would not be at iudgement of life or member which they supposed to be contarie
of the belfray take a rope for his paynes Hee belyeth Doctor Bridges shamefully for hee maketh him to say that a Priest may haue a moderate lordly iurisdiction ouer all the Lordes allotment where in trueth hee doeth not so much as mention Lordly iurisdiction but superioritie and that ouer the Cleargie in seuerall Congregations and not in the whole Church Therefore let him make proofe how this superioritie or maintayning of Churchliuings in their proper state can bee drawen to prooue that such as defende the state diffame the Queene or seeeke to mooue insurrection If not let him remember that both hee forgeth and runneth from his purpose like a babbling discourser wandring in a sea of wordes without compasse of style or discretion Likewise hee fableth that Doctor Bancroft writeth that her Maiestie is a petie Pope which is a gracelesse or shamelesse assertion or both for who woulde not bee ashamed but these swelling mindes that thinke they may speake what they list to ascribe that to Master Bancroft that hee reprehendeth in Martin His wordes are playne his minor 1 Pag. 68. saith he meaning Martin viz. that her Maiestie is a pety Pope may thus bee prooued If the Libeller holde on this course of lying hee will prooue many strange and wonderous matters especially among the Disciplinarians whose consistories is built on lyes But if they diffame her Maiestie that holde her to be a pety Pope as the Libeller by many great wordes and vnnecessary proofes in a matter confessed auoweth then is Martin and his partakers felonious diffamers of her Maiestie for hee holdeth that whosoeuer taketh on him the authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall which the Pope had is a petie Pope as before is sayde But that authority the whole parliament giueth to her Maiestie May it therefore please the Libeller to barke against the Parliament or els against Martin Against Master Bancroft that neyther thought it nor wrote it nor spake it but reprehendeth it in the person of Martin there is no cause for him to declayme all this Libelling notwithstanding the petitioner calleth his consortes our brethren but if his brotherhood consist in such scurrilous rayling let him seeke other brethren The brotherhood and felloship of Christians is knowen by loue The badge of puritanisme is vnnaturall and vnkinde and vnbrotherly dealing And therefore I doubt whether they be brethren or no both considering their hereticall opinions and also their vncharitable and vnchristian rayling And yet I say notwitstanding all this vnnaturall dealing that the bishops so much as they might yea too too much haue dealt remissely against such contumatious and worthlesse disturbers of the Church And that not for any thing which appeareth in this accusers wtitings wherein they see nothing but velliacry and presumption and vanitie but in respect of their owne milde natures Christian affection and desire of peace which these fellowes scorned In the ende hee concludeth that considering the doubtfulnesse of these controuersies hee trusteth her Maiestie will take some good order for the peaceable debating of them hauing I say reuelde at full both against ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction and that before so mightie a prince whose presence he ought more to haue reuerenced hauing also at such time as hee was to speake to her Maiestie talked against all decorum with by standers yea with those that were absent nowe as it were before his death he commeth home to himselfe and prayeth her Maiestie to take some good course for the peaceable ordering of these controuersies as if all her former lawes all her care all her proceedings were not to bee valued in one haire And as if rayling and accusing deserued fauour or his dispute credite or his insolencie pardon I doubt not buther Maiestie of her wisedome seeth the impudencie of the man the weakenesse of the cause the wrong done to others but especially to her selfe her gouernement and her lawes-that others may see it I haue lightly framed this answere lest the foole should enter into conceipt of his wit and others be abused by his malice not in many words for what should I stand about that wherin is nothing but pride ignorance and choller Now because by alledging their opinions he would make the world beleeue that his clients are slandered I wil shew that he 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 smootheth some things that are hard and concealeth many things that are worse and therefore that he and his clients are to be taken as they are The words I haue set downe and by them my answere reade with iudgement iudge with equity shewe equity to trueth Obseruations vpon certaine opinions commonly holden by the puritanes and collected by the said author of the petition with answeres to their petitions and desires ioyned with the foresaid opinions The words of the petitioner TO the end it may appeare how vniustly the seekers of reformation are slandered by the bishops Petitioner and others I haue thought good briefly truly to deliuer the opinions of such as sue for reformation which I haue gathered out of their bookes and seene in their practise and heard in conference which I had with them Neither hath the man deliuered his consorts opinions truly Answere nor was it sufficient if hee had meant to cleare them from slander to deliuer some part of their opinions vnlesse he had also deliuered their whole doctrine concerning their consistoriall discipline for what excuse may it bee for an here-tike to beleeue well in some poyntes or for leude men to doe something well But this generall doctrine of theirs neyther doth he nor durst hee deliuer it was somewhat too hoat and sawcie The soueraigntie of the aldermen in making lawes iudging and excommunicating princes dissoluing the lawes of the land taking away her Maiesties prerogatiue in pardoning offences and depriuing her of the argument she hath to shewe her clemencie in in diminishing her reuenues hee concealeth Neither doth hee reueale vnto vs those mysticall rules whereby the consistoriall faction doth ouerthrowe the parliament the apologie and fayth of this Church the Vniuersities and many priuate mens interest Likewise hath he passed ouer in goodly glosing wordes and not once mentioned other dangerous poynts That therefore which hee wanteth to the intent that wee may haue a perfect draught of the alestond of this newe brewed discipline I purpose to set down and to declare vnto you both their doctrine and their practise So that you may perceiue that they are vainely tearmed seekers and sewers for reformation And that the cause wee defende is not the cause of bishops whom we leaue to defend their doings themselues but the cause of God of religion of our countrey of the prince of learning of the whole ministerie against factious mates and heretical schismatikes and enemies of the ministery learning that in these dangerous times go about to make an vproare in their countrey and a spoyle of the rewards of learning If then that which is best in
bolts euen bitter and slanderous words Besides the former the libeller hath also these faultes most fouly hee abuseth scriptures most shamefully hee alledgeth authors most ignorantly hee talketh of lawe and maliciously reuelleth at the ecclesiasticall state in the first page hee abuseth three places of scripture the 1 Prouerb 31. wise man sayth open thy mouth for the dumbe c. by this place he would iustifie his babbling in this treatise but nothing is more impertinent to his purpose then this sentence for the wise man would haue innocents that cannot speake for themselues defended by order and iustice by such as can speake neyther may wee thinke that it was his meaning that euery seditious person shoulde gape and rayle against Lawes and Gouernours for doing iustice or that malefactours shoulde bee defended against lawe and iudges how can then this place agree to his purpose seeing those men whome the libeller defendeth are not innocentes for they were condemned for felonie and tryed according to the lawes of England neyther were they mute when they reuelled against gouernours nor was Iohn Vdall condemned but for speaking too much nor is this busie behauiour of this companion any way allowed nor sedition or libelling priutledged The Prophet sayth further Psal 115. that because hee beleeued therefore he spake which the libeller turneth answere and woulde drawe to this his treatise but it fitteth not for this petition is no answere but rather a rayling libell or challenge neyther proceedeth it of faith but of a foolish disordered conceite of a distempered brayne not yet well seasoned since the authors last bedlem fits and if this bee his beliefe then is his faith built vpon fancie and vpon that which himselfe confesseth he knoweth not Neyther doth it appertayne to his purpose that the Prophet sayth that for Sions sake he will not hold his peace for it is not the cause of Sion Isai 62. nor any good cause but sedition faction fancie conceit and opinion that by him is here defended that to the great scandale of all the watchmen of Sion yea of althat pray for the peace of Ierusalem in the end of his articles against Bishops as if hee were rauished in an ecstasie hee exclameth how long Lord holy and true and saith come Lord Iesu which sentences make much against him for all good men desire that God would trie the cause and that he in iudgement would visite the perturbers of this Church which if once it shal please him to determine to doe then shall hee and such vipers as hee that fret the bowels of the Church which nourisheth them be discouered punished rooted out these may serue you for a tast the rest of his forgeries and forcing of authors shal be touched as they shall offer themselues in their place Neyther may wee thinke that he that maketh so litle conscience to abuse or dally with the scriptures of God hath vsed more religion in handling the writings of men for example to prooue the aldermen of his Church their proceedings he hath alledged Luther Zuinglius Melancthon and many others that are contrarie to these men in their discipline and neuer knewe such aldermen as he speaketh of neyther doth Caluin nor Beza ioyne with him in his seuerall poynts of discipline therefore doth he alledge them in grosse and abuseth his readers with a shew of names the like abuse shall appeare in his quotations of lawe which he by forging and lying maketh to speake contrary to lawe Little doth hee vnderstand of lawe hee neyther knoweth what proceeding of office meaneth nor what is lawe in ministring of othes against which hee argueth neyther any one poynt of common ciuill or Canon lawe of which hee so much standeth but whatsoeuer his knowledge is in lawe his malice in rayling against the state is singuler all which poyntes as they are touched here in a generalitie so hereafter shall bee more particularly layde open and most of his misallegations falsifications malicious slaunders weake proofes and proceedings answered not that eyther the author whose insufficiencie is notorious nor the discourse the weakenesse whereof is too too pitifull deserueth any answere but least that the simplicitie of the ignorant who is easily misled with these great shewes might be abused or iustice be by opinions controlled herein also all men may vnderstand the weakenes of the cause of the Consistorie the boldnesse malice and fashood of the Consistorians and such as contend for it and how fit it were that such as are altogether vncapable of reason should be gouerned if not enforced by lawes The author whatsoeuer he pretendeth for colour proposeth to himselfe to proue diuerse thinges First that the Ecclesiasticall gouernement of the Church of England is to be changed for that doth he meane by reformed Secondly That an Eldership should be established among vs as being a gouernement vsed in the ancient Church and commaunded to be continued in all ages and to the end that his reasons may be weighed he craueth disputation by aduised writing Thirdly he mainteineth that the disciplinarian faction hath not offended against the statute of 23. Eliz. c. 2 and that Iohn Vdal was vniustly condemned Fourthly he would declare That the consistoriall patrons are vniustly slaundered with desire of innouation and their doctrine with disloyaltie or disorder and endeuoreth to excuse himselfe for not declaring himselfe nor setting his name to his petition Lastly by diuers Articles and questions he goeth about to bring the Ecclesiasticall state into enuie and hatred That while men are busie in examining their faultes his clients of the new disguised discipline may escape in the darke and without danger vndermine the estate To meete therfore with his malice and to encounter him in al his turnes I doe purpose by Gods grace to shewe First that the gouernement of the Church of England is most conformable to the practise of the gouernment both vnder the lawe and the gospell and hath testimonie of scriptures confirmation of antiquitie and was neuer gainesaid but of late dayes when factious companions and clouters and tinkers and marchants and men of occcupatiō aspired to Church gouernement and that the cauils and proofes brought by the petitioner against it are fond and foolish Secondly that the noueltie vanitie iniustice and inconueniences of the new gouernement are such as cannot stand with any good or well ordered state wherein also the insufficient pleading of the petitioner for the Consistorie shall be refuted thirdly that Iohn Vdall was iustly condemned and that the platformers are iustly charged not onely with breach of diuers lawes very penall but also with sedition and faction and therefore are most mercifully dealt withall that they are nether in greater number nor in other qualitie punished the vaine glosses that are set vpon their factes and opinions shall be there also wiped away in the last part of this treatise such accusations as the libellor hath brought to disgrace the Ecclesiasticall gouernement
vs with their consistoriall presumptiō and yet did we not deale against their churches For that I wrote against the presbyterie I did it in respect that the same was obtruded to our church by a certaine vnlearned bold Italian that I wrote in Latine the cause was the Italians and Bezaes dealing for their presbyterie in Latine and also to let others vnderstād that our cause is such as we are able well to defend against Beza and all consistorials whatsoeuer and therefore seeing we meane not to obtrude our gouernement to them and so professe in our bookes let thē keepe their consistorie to thēselues and make much of it that it fal not to the ground for it is in very weake case Bezaes simple discourse doth yeeld it no comfort If any doe come forth to reply I do protest it is he that maketh the stirre and not I. and therefore for cōmon ease it were best for al to keepe silence but if they meane to prate of the glory of the consistory which our platformers esteeme as an idoll they must expect an answere and let not Beza thinke that his fond disputes against vs in his late three halfe penie pamphlet shall passe for oracles To returne to the libeller I answere that neither is it true that we handle the matter doubtfully for we are all resolued in our positiōs against thē nor that they hold their opinions resolutely for neither concerning the institution partes authoritie nor office of their consistorie doe any two of them agree neither doth it seeme probable that euer they wil agree they are at such contention among themselues for neither doe they knowe what they would haue nor wherefore Secondly I say that this argument is most simple and mishapen for suppose that two or three should handle the cause of the Church simplie it were no reason for the ignorance and simple dealing of two or three that the Chuch should be ouerturned and that new lawes and lordings shoulde come in place yet this is his wise conclusion because all doe not agree in all pointes that the matter must be called in question and bishops be displaced that certaine coate cardes in short ierkins may come in place to rule all either by their diuine inspiration or else according as Th. Cartw. the oracle of discipline shall determine which reason if it were admitted then howsoeuer we reteine the present gouernement yet shall wee for euer be discharged of the consistorie the patrons whereof contrarie one another most absurdly in infinit places write most irresolutely and strangely Lastly to bring the ecclesiastical state into question He alledgeth first that our lawes expect a further reformation that such as haue written against papistes puritans haue found imperfectiōs in our gouernemēt Which if he meane in the frame of our discipline or in respect that we haue bishops or want consistories he is abused they neither expect such a reformatiō nor auow any such thing by a certaine statute of K. Henry 8 power was giuen to 32 persons to gather into one body such lawes ecclesiastical as were nether repugnant to the lawes of the realme nor prerogatiue royall That they had as the petitioner saith authoritie to correct good lawes or to make new lawes is the first vntrueth The second vn trueth is That D. Cranmer other learned men did collecte the lawes into one booke for the booke that came forth with the title of Correctio legum Angliae was gathered not by D. Cranmer but by D. Haddon and that very simply without iudgemēt insomuch as al men of iudgemēt disliked it afterward himselfe also was ashamed of it nay contrary to the authoritie giuen him by statute he tooke vpon him not to gather lawes together but to gather a packe of new fancies together and to make new lawes coontrarie to the Ecclesiasticall lawes of the realme yea contrarie to equitie and reason as I shall iustifie if any will challenge me for it The lawes of nursing of children and marriages will verifie all that I say yea and his owne testimonie giuen of it Last of all the lawe whereby this collection of lawes was authorised is now repealed and not necessarie For albeit all doe not yet some knowe what is lawe but suppose ecclesiastical lawes that are in force should begathered together doeth it therefore followe that ecclesiasticall lawes must be all changed howsoeuer it is let not the aldermen bragge of these lawes for therein the authoritie of Bishops is confirmed churchaldermen not so much as mentioned they must therefore looke in some other place for in this booke their Consistorial conceites are not to be found In the booke of Common prayer there is a Commination prescribed to be vsed vntil an order of discipline practised in the primitiue Church should be restored But what maketh that for the establishment of the consistoriall discipline which was neither in the primitie Church nor in the cogitation of the authors of that booke the meaning of the booke is onely that the commination there mentioned shoulde be vsed vntil such time as in the time of Lent offenders might be brought to humble themselues as they did in the primitiue Church and that more fauour might be giuen to the execution of ecclesiastical lawes which is that discipline which they desire these felowes withstand and therefore hereafter I thinke wil not call for discipline for if the same were once executed then would not euery contentious person degorge his malice against lawe nor libellers and scismatickes be suffered to declaime against the state nor euery vnlearned mate be suffered to preach false doctrine and reuell at all antiquitie Neither doeth it followe because in the ordination of Mininisters it is saide take thou authoritie to preach the worde of God that euery Minister is apointed a preacher and that none are to be appointed Ministers but such as can preach which is that they desire And this libeller affirmeth for the exception which doth abbridge the lawe is 1 This practise is condemned by the law inciuile est ff de legebus cautelously and malitiously left out wherein he sheweth that his cause cannot stand but by forging and forcing the wordes are Take thou authoritie to preach where thou shalt be so appointed These fellowes disdaine appointmēt would runne before they be sent but vnlesse many had more learning and discretion it were better that some of those that take on them to preach were set to reade and such as runne so fast were made to sit still In Flaunders according to the rules of this discipline they would needes at the first haue euery one to preach but when they sawe the great inconuenience that came of it they put them to reade Caluins homilies on Iob. but suppose that in the point of discipline of Lent or in the number and qualities of preachers we haue not that we desire doeth it therefore followe that the Ecclesiasticall state
established doth not follow Wherefore vnlesse the author his partakers haue better supply of reasons then he hath brought here there is no cause he should desire conference or disputation If he desire to shew his skil in writing why doth he not take those bookes that haue bene written in this argument in hand and confute thē frō point to point why doth not T. Cartw. answere in the defence of his consistorie If he say that imprisonment hath hitherto bene an hinderance vnto him yet will not that excuse serue the rest that were neuer in prison why doe not W. Tr. Will. Ch. D. Sp. and others confirme their demonstrations of discipline wherein all their reasons stand confuted hauing so much worke to doe why shoulde he desire more belike this petition was made to bragge men downe but if he thinke he can do it he deceiueth himselfe for as farre as her Maiestie and lawes will permit they shall find a number readie in all sortes to encounter them but the libellers meaning is not to dispute as I thinke for no man hath worse grace in disputing nor more simple facultie in writing by hiding his head he seemeth rather to be ready to flye then fight his talke therefore of aduised writings is idle for both T. Cartw. and he hath written many things vnaduisedly and both flye the hammering of their cause only his purpose is to slander the state by libels to lurke in corners to haue all ecclesiasticall lawes and gouernement left without defence so that euery man might speake against them without eyther feare of punishment or controlment which neyther is good nor commendable for it would be most absurde if 3 or 4 difformed platformers should be suffered to dispute in schooles that her Maiesties authoritie is vnlawfull that our lawes and gouernement is wicked that the state is to be changed As for the course that Doctor Rainolaes vsed against Hart it was lawfull he being thereto authorised percase fitting for him might better be suffred being in poynts of religion resolued then in gouernement doubted of yet was it long and without effect but this course of priuate conference by writing which the libeller desireth in this cause is leude being against her Maiestie the lawes and state it would bee a way to rebellion it would make more contention it would bee infinite tedious and to no purpose the godly and Christian Emperors of Rome were of a contrary mind to this libeller for in diuerse expresse lawes they vpon great penalties forbid any to call in question the confession of faith of the Church 1 Cod. de sum trinit fid cath forbidding vt nemode capublicè contendere audeat neither doth the 2 Admonit de de lib. concord author of the admonition to the Churches of Saxonye allowe any such course as the libeller desireth nay his desire is that matters may bee discussed in some synode of learned men what shame then is it to deuise leude meanes to trouble the Church and falsly to impute them to those that neuer vsed them nor thought them conuenient the libeller therefore may do well hereafter to leaue to the wisedome of her Maiestie and the rest of the gouernors of the Church common wealth the composing of matters which is best wrought by good lawes and sharpe punishment that such as will not be answered with reason may like dizards bee corrected with rods wherein if he thinke himselfe dealt withall vniustly let him come forth when he will eyther in aduised or vnaduised writing his cause shal be prooued wicked and his consortes facts auowed punishable CAP. II. That there neuer was any gouernment by Church aldermen or supposed Ecclesiasticall Consistorie eyther vnder the lawe or in the Apostles times or after nor can without great iniurie to the Church of England to the Magistrates and others be admitted ALthough this positiō hath bene so fully 1 In the booke de presbyterio proued that neither T. Cartw. nor his schollers nor the whole packe of our aduersaries haue as yet made answere yet because the booke where the discourse is cōteined is in latine which percase thou vnderstandest not the argumēts lie dispersed so that without difficulty they cannot be gathered I wil here make a briefe of thē So shalt thou see what a cleare trueth this wise disputer thinketh to batter with vaine shew of mens opinions and be better resolued of the notorious vanitie of the consistoriall discipline That the Iewes had no meere ecclesiasticall consistory distinct frō the benches that handled ciuil causes these reasons may ascerteine vs. First there is no place of scripture where the institution of it may be found Those iudges that are mentioned Exod. 18 Deut. 17 are of an other sort for they heard all ciuil causes yea causes of blood inflicted ciuil punishmēts vpon offenders Those that are founde in the 11 of Numbers were of the princes counsel And other sorts of Collegiat Elders and Iudges are none found Let them shew them if they can the place of Leuiticus toucheth onely priestes in particuler and matters concerning their only office Further there appeareth no cōmission to haue bene giuē to any bēch of Iudges to determine ecclesiastical causes seuerally neither are there any lawes prescribed in Gods word to direct them by so that if any Iudged in such causes they proceeded both without authority and also direction which were very absurd to thinke for if God had appointed any such order of Iudges hee would no doubt haue giuen them authoritie and directions There appeareth not the lest step of any act of any such eccle siastical cōsistory through the whole scriptures or stories of the Iewes there is no memory found of thē in the time of Moses nothing vnder the iudges or kings or in the decay of the Iewish state not so much as the Sanedrin that condēned Christ to death is any precedent of the ecclesiastical cōsistorie whatsoeuer Beza can say to the cōtrary for it was the only remainder of the Iewish pollicy succeeded in the place of the counsell Numbers 11 and of the Iudges appointed Deut. 17 as is apparent by examination of the authority and acts of it All that authority which this ecclesiastical consistory is supposed to haue was either in thepriests or princes The princes in the time of Moses of the iudges kings made lawes and gaue souereign directiōs The priests iudged of things cleane vncleane executed caused al ecclesiasticall orders to be obserued 2. Chron. 19. exod 18. The priests Leuites appointed by the prince iudged of right wrong consecrated others to the functions of priesthood where was thē the ecclesiastical chimerical consistory all this while or how could it be supposed that others would encroch vpō the priestsoffice being debarred by Gods law not being mentioned in scripture or histories Neither are the ecclesiastical consistories commended for wel doing
with gaine and other vanities are polluted whose ignorance maketh them vncapable of ecclesiastical function Those elders which Ambrose speaketh of assisted the bishop with coūsell these are not counsellers but controllers gouerners with voyces equall to the bishop His elders were in cathedrall churches onely these are in euery 3 So our platformers would haue it albeit the Geneuians practise be farre diuers paltry village Those were men learned these are ignorant marchants artificers and clownes for the most part Nothing can be more repugnant thē Ambrose and the Disciplinarians Ambrose 4 Lib. 8. cp 64. sheweth that excommunication belonged to bishops these put the keyes into the hands of strange elders yet very yong in Gods church good for nothing but to oppresse the ministerie and learning such elders as Ambrose speaketh of were deriued from the Iewes but such Aldermen as these haue deuised the Iewes had none Ambrose his elders were not temporary nor all of counsell these are Ambrose complayneth that the Bishop and his Clerkes did not liue in common as in time 5 Inter Can. Syluestri past yet such was the griedinesse of bishops that it was necessary to diuide the church goods and such was the negligence of priests that they were sent out of cities to dwell in the countrey which now is obserued and that which Ambrose complayned of restored viz. that certaine of the chiefe of the ministery should be assistant to the bishop what then would these fellowes haue more would they haue all the ministers of a diocesse to liue in one citie and to ioyne in hearing of all matters This would be a beginning of singular non residence cause of great trouble cōfusion not a meanes to do iustice but to hinder iustice After Ambrose succeedeth Hierome a mā most vnfit to speak for the new eldership for if that be true which he saith that bishops elders in the primitiue church were all one then away goe the aldermen that are no bishops which reason did so sticke to Bezaes fingers 1 De presbyter aduers Erast Epist ad Heliod disputing against Erastus for the eldership that hee could no way lay it downe handsomely without the ruine of his cause Againe if in Hieroms time all Clerkes did feede with the worde much more did priests Neither doeth it make for these mens cause that he saith that as the Iewes so the Christians had a Counsell in euery cathedrall church for that is his meaning for that was of ministers and is obserued in our cathedrall churches and vtterly ouerthroweth the presumption of these vnlearned aldermen that with vnwashen feete tread in the sanctuary with filthy hands leaden heads handle matters of religiō faith churchgouernment wtout colour or title taking the keyes out of the successors of the apostles hands Possidonius 2 In vit August Socrates albeit they are said to speake of the consistorie and that plainely 3 Lib. 5. cap. 21. yet cleerely ouerthrowe the same for neither of them euer vnderstoode or heard of any temporary lay elders such as are lately raised from the dunghill to the highest tribunall of the church Nor do they speake of others then such as liued in cōmunity with the bishops in their cathedrall churches such as we haue in our church of which also the canon 4 Dist 95. c. ecce 15. q. 7. si quid law maketh mētion declaring their office to consist in preaching administring the sacraments so that I cannot but wonder with what visage that libeller could alleadge the colledges of ministers of the worde assistant to bishops in their Cathedrall churches to proue Elderships in euery village assistant to euery minister and consisting of prophane and vnlearned men and neither hauing salary nor salt of discretion nor continuance as the other had Of these allegations therefore this conclusion may bee drawen out that in counsels Fathers and antiquitie there is not any argument or coniecture found of all that Discipline which these newfangled platformers desire Nay there is not any proofe for the same in the new writers onely I except the Geneuians and their followers that haue shamefully applyed scriptures to their Disciplinarian dreames The churches of Saxony Wittenberg Nuremberg Strausborgh Ausburg Frankeforde Hamborgh and other places of Germany the county Palatine except likewise the churches of Zuricke Berne Basill other true christian churches in Zuitzerland Denmarke Sueueland Pomerany Poland and Hungary and all the learned men that gouerned those churches both in their doctrine and practise are against the discipline of the new Consistories Moreouer those that speake for the Consistories are not all of one opinion In the state of Geneua there is but one cōsistory there are not many that agree about the proofe parts office or lawes of it In Geneua they doe not allow their consistory power to make or disanull lawes In Fraunce they giue that power to synodes The consistoriall discipline in France was at first receiued of a fewe and that not for euidence of Scripture or proofe or reason but by suffrages of the Nobilitie and Gentry whereof some too well liked the sacrilegious doctrine and by the earnest labour of Beza desirous to conforme other churches to that of Geneua most of the learned ministers dissenting from him and disallowing his absurde discipline and not yeelding before the Princes to whome they serued constrayned them What reason then hath any to pleade for the consistoriall gouernment which is vnknowen to all antiquite and repugnant to Apostolicall practise and the most florishing Churches in Europe and was receiued with grudge of learned men and onely resteth vpon the conceite of Caluin Beza Daneau and some halfe score of blind writers as Iohn Baptista that ignorant Italian and Sneccan and Bertrand de Loques and Oleuian and Robert Stephen a better Printer then diuine and Perot and de Plurre and I knowe not whom neither of marke nor qualitie especially seeing so many pregnant reasons are brought against the translation of it from the Iewes and establishment of it among Christians as none haue answered and this libeller thinketh it most wisedome to passe ouer with silence If this be a good argument that Daneau Bertrand de Loques Bastingius Iunius Piscator Oleuian Caluin Beza Sneccan and Iohn Baptista d'Aureli thinke so how good will this reason be that all the fathers of all ages haue bene of a contrary iudgement and diuers godly Martyrs and learned men in our Church and other reformed Churches in Germany Zuitzerland Denmarke induced with better reasons haue thought otherwise Besides all this it shall appeare that those authors which the libeller alledgeth neuer beleeued that eyther in time past there was a consistorie of partie coluored Aldermen like to that this libeller desireth or that such a one now ought to be placed in euery Church That Zuinglius shoul de teach or beleeue that Christ did institute such Aldermen
such authors argumēts as these fellowes as yet delay to answere As for Daneau and certaine pety compagnions defenders thereof their authority is of no weight speaking against such antiquitie and consent and reason The Libeller would also haue the ecclesiasticall state made odious for their misgouernment a very malitious and insufficient course for suppose that 3 or 4 should doe against lawe is it reason that law should be taken away or that many should suffer for a few mens faults how much more vnreasonable is it that the same should bee oppressed for supposed misgouernment That articles are ministred to parties conuented in law and subscription required to lawes is most consonant to lawes neither is any thing in the lawes of England or the statute 25. Henr. 8.19 there to the contrary The Libeller seemeth not to vnderstand himselfe nor others when hee talketh of bishops deuising articles and subscriptions and publishing them in their owne names for there can not be deuised a more absurde kinde of speach Subscriptions are required of others and not published and articles are obiected as priuate meanes to bolt out trueth not as lawes to be practised A course vsuall in all courts of chancery eschecker starrechamber but what reason had this fellowe to obiect to bishops that which they doe not when Th. Cartw. and his 2 At Warwicke Cambridge London c. the actes thereof are euidence sufficient fellowes contrary to the statutes and lawes of the Realme assembled in secrete manner made lawes and subscribed them and published them among themselues and yet are not punished for it They say that bishops appoynting speciall prayers vpon occasion of the inuasion of the Spaniards and other speciall causes doe contrary to that which they require in others but they mistake for those offend not that in euery point of the Communion booke obserue not strict order which the booke in some case aloweth but such malitious felowes as of malitiousnes refuse it and contemptuously oppugne it Neither is the vse of speciall prayers vpon occasion contrary to the vse of the booke of common prayer subscribed vnto with exclusion of all other orders of common prayers for both may stand together Neither did Byshops any thing in this behalfe without her Maiesties speciall commandement But these fellowes are of those that allow not her Maiesties godly orders nor any thing done by Gouernors nor any prayers but fond loose vaine and absurd babbling oraisons of Puritans and seeme to be sory that any should pray against the Spaniards They thinke also and the Libeller affirmeth that it is as lawfull for contentious persons to refuse the surples as for Byshops not to vse pastorall staues But it is most absurde so to say the vse of the surples being consirmed by law the vse of the pastorall staues not being required by lawe or custome But were pastorall staues enioyned by lawe is this a good reason because Bishops offend that euery lawlesse compagnion should passe without controlment That Cawdry was punished by order of lawe is apparant for that the statute doeth authorize the high Commissioners to proceede according to their Commission If any fault were therein cōmitted it was that he was vsed with so 1 His cause was almost two yeeres in handling his conformitie continually being exspected much lenitie Neuer was any more obstinate nor could any man haue more fauor especially without desert for neither had he learning nor other good qualitie nor was any more factious That felonies were examined before the high Commissioners Ec-Ecclesiasticall is a vaine cauill neither doeth it follow because vpon examinations of matters fellonious libels are found out that they proceede to the cognition and determining of felonies Neither do the Ecclesiastical Iudges contray to law either in citations or ministring othes in causes ex officio or punishing lewde factious perturbers of the state If this felow doe maintaine the contrary let him leaue his idle quotations and set downe the wordes of law enforce them by argument to his purpose Otherwise all men may see he goeth about rather to calumniate good men then to iustifie any accusation against his aduersaries If he prooue nothing let him be ashamed to cal his factious compagnions seekers of reformation their libels and friuolous pamphlets bookes of reformation and cease to impugne her Maiesties lawes sentence of Iudges against Iohn Vdall whose fact no man can defend but such as maintaine sedition faction nor praise but such as are enamored of senceles vnlearned hypocrites let him cease to charge the Bishops with seeking his life for they are not his parties nay next to her Maiestie he is to thanke some Bishops for his life for if they had bin as he saith nay if some had not entreated for him percase he had bin hanged all this controuersie taken vp and ended If he cease not percase the world will thinke that Vdall deserued rather more seueritie then is now shewed to him and that the libellers bolde demeanour may procure him to haue iustice for his foolish prating rather then fauour for any wittie reasoning Hitherto all the Libellers dispute is without sequele for admit some one or more shoulde teache falsely or doe against lawe yet is it no reason that euery base compagnion should with open mouth rayle against her Maiesties gouernement and Lawes and call them Antichristian and speake against the whole cleargie yea against Iudges and all that fauour the present gouernment Let those that haue taught falsely be refuted and those that haue done leudly bee punished That the state should be dissolued for the misgouernment of particulars no reason will admit That the platformers offer their liues to prooue their discipline which the libeller alledgeth to excuse thē is a sencelesse reason for no traytors nor felōs deale in any cause that they vndertake but they offer and venture their liues for it yea and Iacke Strawe Hacket offred their liues to prooue their reformation whereas these fellowes contrariwise are very loath to loose liues lands or goods for their discipline and loose nothing but with much grumbling and repining and come farre behinde the Iesuites and Papists in that poynt And so simple is their proofe that if they bee wise they will not venture any thing vpon it for the demonstrations of discipline stande confuted without replye and all their presbyteriall imaginations rest beaten without answere neyther is any argument in all T. C. his great confused Chaos of replyes left vntouched His multiplicitie of wordes wee leaue to factious Puritans that speake ordinarily without sence or matter to play withall To excuse his fellowes silence the Libeller pretendeth want of libertie Printers which cannot iustly be alledged for how can they want printers hauing Waldgraue in Scotland and others at Geneua Middleburg Leyden at commaundement beside their priuate presses Or how can they pretend want of liberty seeing none haue bene long imprisoned and many
contra tyrannos whom many affirme to bee Beza or Hotoman doth giue power to the subiectes not onely to resist but also to depose and kill the prince if he oppugne Gods lawes and religion whereof they make their discipline a glorious part That this was the opinion of them of Geneua is apparant by the wordes of 4 In an Epistle sent from Die p. hist scotl Knoxe who not onely allowed the doctrine but put it in fragrant practise in Scotland Neyther may we thinke that our platformers haue dissented from their masters Fenner in his booke of diuinitie which Th. Cartw. so well liketh that hee calleth the doctrine of it the vndubitable rules of heauenly Canaan 5 Theolog. Fen p. 186. saith that in euery common wealth there ought to be by the law of God certaine Ephori or magistrates which ought to haue as in Sparta they had authoritie not onely to ouerrule but also to depose the prince According to their doctrine they haue proceeded in writing speaking doing Martin most shamefully rayleth at the present gouernement and wisheth 1 Epitome of Martin that the parliament woulde bring in the eldership notwithstanding her Maiesties resisting it viz. by a rebellion They made diuerse meetings they inueyghed against the state in their publike and priuate speeches in the ende they procured throughout the Realme certayne subscriptions themselues bragged of a hundred thousande handes In playne tearmes they talked of 2 Wight massacring of their aduersaries And Snape in one of his letters sayeth what will you say if wee ouethrowe the Bishops and that gouernement in one day Their further malice appeareth in the Epistle before their leude demonstrations of discipline when all things were readie out startes Hackets two prophetes to mooue the people to rebellion that what they coulde not haue by intreatie they might winne by treason and rebellion That they intended the deliuerie of certaine factious persons committed to prison and to erect the presbyteries and to suppresse the gouernours and lawes their letters examinations and writings doe declare And yet forsooth this ignorant fellowe holdeth thar they neuer went about to mooue any stirre or rebellion percase hee thought these matters had not bene knowen Seuenthly he obiecteth further that if his clientes intende rebellion then the lawes also and bishops doe intende rebellion for that they expect likewise further reformation But the case is vnlike Good men desire reformation of manners by execution of good lawes and supplie of imperfections They stand for the state they withstand all innouations they proceede orderly These fellowes contrariwise seeke the ouerthrowe of infinite lawes of infinite officers and that by reuelling and disorder they seeke the establishment of an vncouth and vnknowen gouernement by faction and conspiracie odious to all states and good men Neyther can hee shroud his clyents vnder master Nowels authoritie for they want much of his learning and honestie and farre diuerse is that eldership hee meaneth from this packe of elders that they desire Neither because printers sell popish bookes by which some are mooued to discontentment doth it follow that therefore it is lawful to mooue discontentment for neyther may they sell them but to men knowen and licenced without punishment nor are all popish bookes of one sort As for Doctor Percy I thinke he doth not set foorth newe lawes nor newe common wealthes but for ease and introduction of students doth gather a summe of all lawes in force but the libellers furious mates would burne them and vtterly ouerthrow law that we might depend vpon the variable oracles of the presbyterie which he seeketh to erect Eightly hee addeth that many doe maintaine papistes and traitors and yet doe not mooue discontentment vnto which I am content that hee maketh his clyentes like for I doe not knowe any in England that hath procured the discharge of more recusants and that not gratis or more holpen them then certaine capitall and principall puritanes The libeller knoweth whome I meane The exception is friuolous and false for neyther are they to bee allowed that maintayne papistes nor puritanes or that procure their discharge Nor may we thinke but that they that maintaine them meane no good to the state and therefore let the gentle dunse aduise hereafter what hee sayeth and not disgrace his best friendes nor lye to no purpose nor benefite of his cause And finally let him not say our argumentes are nought vnlesse hee reply better hitherto hee hath sweate and sayde nothing yea and when hee hath sweate out all his wit yet can he not answere any one title of our reasons The reason that hee setteth downe is his owne reason and is senceles in deed and proceedeth from a man voyd of wisedome learning and honestie But the same set downe in good tearmes will make him in deede ashamed but not as he saith to answere it but because hee cannot answere it No though he professe to speake for the innocent He should haue sayd in the cause of the dumbe for so are the wordes of T. C. his masters text But his clyentes they haue spoken too much and wish themselues they had bene dumbe Now albeit they be not mute yet he taketh them to be innocent and that in his opinion Is not this a worthy fellow thinke you that opposeth his fond and loose opinion against the euidence of witnesses verdict of the iurie sentence of the iudge But what shoulde we looke for other at these mens handes whose braue consistorie and all their learning standeth on 3 or 4 mens opinions But let vs heare what he bringeth to answere our obiections and for discharge of his clyentes that stand at the barre He sayth that Martin where he threatneth that Doctor Bridges shall haue xx fistes about his eares meaneth that many shall write against him A goodly comment As if puritanes wrote with fists rather then fingers which may very well bee for their writing is seditious rude and vnciuill To prooue that Martin meaneth so he alledgeth first that Martin is no Atheist nor papist But there is great doubt of papisme and flat proofe of atheisme for who scoffeth at religion but Atheists and peruerteth scriptures in scorne but such as beleeue no God Secondly he saith xx is too few to make a rebellion But the patch might vnderstād that one is inough to begin a mutinie And that if D. Bridges shall haue xx fistes against him their meaning is that others shall haue many more about them for I thinke their quarrell is not onely against D. Bridges In the ende the libeller seeing his cause desperate saith that hanging is too good for Martin which I yeelde vnto and assigne the libeller for his paynes to be the executioner And thus the noble Martin viz. I. Penry I. Vd. I. F. all Iohns and I. Thr. that all concurred in making of Martin must by sentence of the libeller if they had any euill purpose goe to the gybet to feede Rauens That
Magistrates Petitioner to take an othe so it be not taken in vaine or in matters vnknowen to them So likewise the Iesuites Answere and Rhemistes doe thinde it lawfull yet to accuse their fellowes or to hurt themselues they thinke it vnlawfull to take oathes and say That such oathes 11 Annotat. Rhemens in act 23. that are so taken doe not binde and must be broken vpon paine of damnation which is also the case of puritans for either they refuse to sweare or to answere concerning their brethren as they call them And what a vaine othe is that themselues wil also iudge ouerthrowing the ordinarie proceedings of lawe and best meanes of triall yea diuers of thē haue very small regard of their othes as the recordes of their answeres wil testifie for either they aunswere vntrueth or else refuse to answere so farre as lawe bindeth them yea albeit the matter be declared vnto them The authors of this booke they haue forsworne the telling of all trueth They seeke not to pull downe the courtes of Iustice Petitioner c. onely they would haue bislops and ecclesiasticall persons shut out from them Yet if the eldership did shine in his glory Answere all the courts of Iustice might pull downe their seates For if that the consistorie may orderal matters cōtrarie to the law of God wherein is breach of charitie what shall be left for other courtes Herein therefore they shewe not onely singuler presumption in thēselues but also great malice against other Themselues would entermeddle in all causes Ecclesiastical persons they cannot suffer in any yet are bishops a principall parte of the court of parliament Starchamber by the gouernours of this realmethought fittest and by no lawe debarred to be there vnlesse it be by the lawes of the cōsistorie made for the extinguishment of religion learning Whereas contrariwise the new churchaldermen haue no warrant of law but ouerthrow all lawes and her Maiesties prerogatiue And yet would be admitted in 1 Declaration of certaine actes made anno 1584. and in a certaine pamphlet spread abroad by them parliamēt consulted with in courts of Iustice seeke that al men should depēd vpon thē here as vpō Beza at Geneua endeuour to suppresse men of learning grauitie authorised by law that certeine worthles men vnder pretēce of authoritie frō Christ may tread downe lawes rule as they list At Geneua they pretēded first religion but they ouerthrew ciuil magistrates in the end and expulsed the Bishops of Geneua which were gouernours of that state They deny not that matters of testaments and marriages Petitioner may be determined by ciuilians or temporall lawyers It skilleth not greatly what they affirme or deny Answere vsing to doe both very impudently The lawes of this land haue thought fittest that both matters of mariages and willes and also causes of benefices of tythes and slaunder and other ecclesiastical controuersies should be handled in ecclesiasticall courtes The priuiledges of the Church princes binde themselues to obserue and the statute of Magna Carta confirmeth What shamelesse men then are these that would ouerthrowe so auncient courtes of Iustice so auncient lawes and giue cognition of matters to those that haue no skil nor lawe to decide them by And of a certaine state to make a most vncertaine and wauering state and to ouerthrowe the most excellent studie of the ciuill lawes yea ciuilitie it selfe to bring in barbarisme But let them settle themselues they are men fitter to parte a bootie taken by force then to deuide the offices of gouernement euery man let him goe to his occupation clownes to the plowe marchants to their shops Clarkes scribes to their penne ynkehorne and this petitioner to Bedlem As for the iurisdiction of bishops it is not onely confirmed by lawe but by antiquitie reason whereas the whole frame of discipline standeth vpon a fewe mens fancies neither wise nor learned and is repugnant to lawe and orderly gouernement yea to Gods word They teach that the Ministerie nor people ought to make any generall reformation Petitioner Marke I pray you Answere how nicely he minceth at matrers He will not say that either Ministers or others shall by force or other meanes of their owne authoritie make a generall reformation but that they may euery man in their seuerall parishes make a reformation he will not deny so the enuy he would a little decline but his hope of rebellion he would not loose but all commeth to one reckonning for whether this reformation or rather rebellion be made all at once or in diuers particular places at seuerall times all commeth to this passe that priuate men shal disanul lawes and erect new orders and rule as lordes and neither prince nor lawe beare sway so that were it as this man setteth it downe yet were it too too bad But I will shewe that the consistoriall doctrine yea and proceeding is farre otherwise Noblemen saith 1 Histor Scotl. appellat Knoxe Knoxe ought to reforme Religion if the king will not the same power he giueth to the 2 Histor Scotl. pag. 49. 50. comminaltie If the Prince will not yeeld to his 3 Knoxe appellac p. 28. 30. nobles and people he armeth them with power to depose him Nay saith he further If princes be tyrants 4 Knoxe to Engl. and Scotl pag. 78. against God and his trueth their subiectes are freed from their othes of obedience With him accordeth 5 De iure regni Buchanan he saith the people is more excellent then the king and hath right to bestowe the crowne at pleasure and may make such lawes as it pleaseth them that the people may arraigne the king and that Ministers may excommnnicate him In which case most wretched is the king and the people most puissant He saith further That albeit Saint Paul commaunded obedience to tyrants yet it was in respect of the times and people that were weake and not able to take armes The same doctrine is maintained by 6 De iure magistrat Beza by 7 Francogal Hottoman and others and it is the sweete reformed doctrine as they call it of the perturbers of our state 8 Goodmans booke Goodman soundeth the trumpet of sedition to the nobilitie and people 9 Theolog. sacr against the prince and holdeth That if princes will not reforme religion yet others might reforme it themselues The same argument is handled in that traytorous dialogue which Ghylbic published And Th. Cartw. although he denieth it as it should seeme hath taught this mysterie of discipliue to his scholler Fenner that there are certaine Ephori that ought to haue authoritie aboue the Prince which not onely may controlle him but also settle matters which he neglecteth And according to this doctrine they proceeded first at Geneua shutting their gates against the Bishop their prince and seasing his reuennues and altering the
curiously enquire if they were not too curious they woulde no more meddle with vs then wee doe with them At least they would remember that all Churches are equall if they say true As for the learned men that are named and others they may speake what they please of Popish apparell it concerneth vs nothing But that they haue condemned the apparell of ministers nowe vsed in Englande it cannot bee shewed of the most learned Nay the opinions of Bullinger Bucer Gualter and others are to bee shewed to the contrary Of the rest the authoritie is not so great as may weigh downe the orders of our Church without reason Finally what is seemely what not neyther Beza nor his followers are any iudges in matters concerning our Church In this Church this apparell is thought decent and therefore let the newfangled Disciplinarians weare their Flat-caps and Russet clokes and goe disguized like good fellowes that come from the Cart or from the market and so content themselues Why wee should refuse our ancient orders or followe them in their newe fooleries as yet wee see no reason Quaere if Maiors Bailiffes Stage players and others Put-case Quest 5. may not as well be forced to subscribe to the Bishops three Articles by the statute of 1. Elizab. c. 1. as Ministers seeing the Statute vrged by Doctor Bridges to that purpose doeth reache to them as well as Ministers This is a Question put to disgrace subscription Answere by a man that neyther alloweth the Queenes supremacie nor Cōmunion booke nor Articles of religion And therefore he iumbleth bishops maiors stageplayers together setting forth his follie as it were on a stage for which if he had his desert he would be brought to play a part on another kind of stage Why ministers not these should subscribe the reason is for that they teach others must be knowen to be sound of religion the others teache not And the same is confirmed by diuers lawes and practise of all Churches neyther doeth Doctor Bridges giue the least occasion for him to ground his doubt vpon him Surely a Stageplayer may easily shewe more wit and modestie then this pild Put-case Quaere Put-case Quest 6. whether Bishops vpon occasion prescribing certain prayers to be said besides the prayers in the Communion booke doe not offend against their owne Articles and the Statute of publike Prayer and ought not therefore to deale more mercifully with their brethren offending in like qualitie A profound question Answere yet of no man asked but of those that sinne of malice for who knoweth not that the statute of publike prayer prouideth against the malicious contemners of the Communion booke such as the Papists Puritans are who thinke they can conceiue extemporall prayers farre passing the reach of that booke and bring in newe Liturgies and not against such as allowe that booke defende it and vse it and onely adde some Prayers according to the diuersitie of occasions and tymes being also authorized thereto by her Maiestie and doing the same according to Lawe But this wicked fellowe is loath that any shoulde pray for the Queene or against the Spaniardes els would hee not condemne it Put-case Quest 7. Whether are not the Questions and Answeres at the baptizing of Infants in the Communion booke like to the questions of the Marcionites that baptized the quicke for the dead Chrysost in 1. Corinth 15. one answering from vnder the bed where the dead lay The last Interrogatorie was for the Communion booke Answere this is against it of so contrary pieces this worke is wrought But if the Put-case that framed this question meane to proue any thing he must shewe some better reason For there is not like reason in answering for Infantes for dead men Those are to bee baptized these not those haue sayth in habite these are passed Neyther is it strange if he that vndertaketh for the childes education doeth answere for it The Ceremonie is ancient and not lightly to bee esteemed vnlesse like to these newfangled Innouators wee meane to bidde warre to all Antiquitie and playnely with them to runne into manifolde new heresies Quaere whether with safe conscience Put-case Quest 8. a man may subscribe to the Communion booke that it conteineth nothing contrary to scriptures seeing the translation of the Psalmes differeth from the trueth of the Hebrewe in 200 places or more It is out of question Answere that the Consistorian faction denyeth not to subscribe to that booke because of the faults in the translation of Psalmes but for other matters which they would hide vnder this goodly glosse for by the like reason they might denie to subscribe to the Bible seeing the Geneuian Bible doth differ much from the originall text yet they vse and imbrace it and haue none other diuinitie then the Geneuian phrase Further I say that it is not the meaning of those that require subscription to confirme eyther errours of translation or of the print and therefore they doe but cauill without cause and obiect this without ground But suppose the intendment of subscription were strictly to tye men to the wordes of that booke whether they were well couched or not yet will it not fall out in reckoning that there are moe faultes in the translation of the Psalmes then in the Geneuian Bible Whether there bee or no this Put-case cannot tell for hee vnderstandeth not the tongue neither shall his companions euer bee able to iustifie either two hundred or one fault contrary to the analogie of faith Quaere whether it be agreeable to Gods worde or lawe Put-case Quest 9. to punish Libellers with returne of Libels Ribauldry c. and whether Martin offending in Libelling they offend not that made the Almond for Parrat Martins moneths minde c. Whatsoeuer those did that answered Martins ribauldry-bookes Answere they did it of their owne heads without either knowledge or allowance of their superiors and therefore let them answere themselues and I doubt not but they will answere reason for it is nothing so great a fault to answere as to make challenge And further they will say their bookes be very honest and ciuil in respect of Martins Atheistical Libels For he rayleth against lawes against gouernours and against men in authoritie they reuell onely against Martin and his barking curres and according to their reache doe speake for the lawes Hee wickedly sporteth with religion and matters of State these only play with Martins dizardry and his dizardlike companions If this Questioner reply and aske why are they not called in it may be answered that if he wil make himselfe party shew any thing in them against religion or law they wil be called in yea some of them haue bene called in and others of a more biting stile and nature haue bene stayed If he can shew no such thing it will be thought that this kind of vaine cōsidering the intolerable pride
consistorian faction good because some here mentioned fauoured it for some had one respect some another and were men of strange Diuinitie for the most part which I could iustifie by particulars but I will not trouble the rest of those that are dead nor disgrace those that are aliue Let them be as good as they are supposed yet doe I beleeue one Father in matters of Diuinitie before them all Besides that diuers men here named neuer fauoured the Consistorie as the last French kings the Dukes of Saxony other Christian potentates neither did the Frenchmen contend for the Consistory which came to be afterwarde established but for religion And well it is knowen that both the Earle of Leycester and Sir Francis Walsingham in their latter times renounced these men confessing that they had bene greatly abused by their hypocrisie Neither do I thinke that Sir Nicholas Bacon Sir Walter Mildemay and such noble counsellours woulde fauour factious fellowes or suppose these whome the Libeller defendeth to bee good subiects Nay one of them hath spoken most earnestly in open Parliament against them and their Elderships so that this argument that standeth on such false assertions and weake authoritie cannot be good If this argument be sufficient to proue them good subiects albeit they deny her Maiesties supremacie in Ecclesiasticall causes and slander her gouernement then Papists and traitors may by the same be prooued to be good subiects for great Princes states and potentates fauour their cause The Bishops and other ministers that liue in obedience of Lawe cannot with those faultes bee charged and therefore are wronged to bee matched with these mutinous mates that with multitude and power rather then reason seeke to preuayle Yet haue they against them all the ancient fathers all counsels all learned men of time past yea all antiquitie yea many learned men of our time with whome neither for nomber nor authoritie are these fellowes to bee compared Quaere Putcase Quest 40. whether a Minister ought not to admonish the mightiest Prince of his duetie refuse to administer the sacrament vnto him if he bee a notorious offender and pronounce him to bee no member of Christ in the communion of Saintes if hee continue obstinate in open crimes and whether vnder the Law Dauid and other princes were not subiect to ceremoniall expiations and the spirituall power of Priestes and Prophets and whether Ambrose did well in vsing like authority towards an Emperour and lastly whether Zanchus Caluin Bucer Nowel Iewel Bilson and Bridges approouing the like be traytors Popes and tyrants If a minister may doe all these seruices against a prince Answere what should any neede to desire the Eldership forsoothe belike one is too fewe to suppresse a princes authoritie for this cause it is not fitting that any such power should bee granted eyther to ministers or to consistories for that which is alledged viz. that ministers may admonish princes maketh nothing for the consistory nor excommunication of princes by ministers for betwixt publike and generall admonitions and excommunication there is no small difference euery minister may vse that according to his place and calling but it were somewhat too sawcy a matter for euery hot braynd fellowe to vse this especially against princes neither did either the priests excōmunicate Dauid nor Ambrose pronounce sentence against Theodosius he did only exclude him from his owne communion nor do I find where any of these learned men euer did make the soueraine prince subiect to a cocke braynd fellowes curse If he were subiect then were he no soueraine prince then should euery minister controlle the prince which is absurd repugnant to state but as this felow doth insinuate Dauid was subiect to ceremonial expiations admitte it were so yet great difference there is betweene these expiations voluntarily vndertaken and excommunication violently pronounced as learned men haue shewed There is no other meanes whereby the 1 Machiauel histor fiorent lib. 1. Popes grewe great at the first then by excommunication shall we then recall againe the Papall tyrannie shall we establish the instrument of so many rebellions shall wee admit such foolish conditionall sentences which all Lawes condemne As for Nowel Bilson Bridges and others writing against papistes they doe not simply auowe such excommunication of princes as these would haue but prooue that other bishops may proceede therein as farre as the bishops of Rome and that with them they haue equall authoritie Quaere Put-case Quest 41. why there may not bee vnder a Christian Magistrate Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Widowes aswell as Parsons Lecturers Schoolemasters Churchwardens Collectours for the poore and Hospitall women seeing these doe and may execute in authoritie and power the whole forme of Church gouernment desired though their practise thereof is infinitely corrupted against the Canons of the Apostles to the danger of the Church and dishonour of the Realme First it is false Answere that they may execute the same authoritie that the Eldershippe may Who would not bee ashamed to affirme that our Churchwardens may excommunicate any person or that any with vs beside the Prince and parliament might make Lawes and orders but hee that shameth of nothing But suppose they doe some things which the aldermen doe yet were it no reason because these doe somewhat by lawe that we should admit a gouernment contrary to lawes to state to her Maiesties prerogatiue to al scriptures fathers antiquity yea to sence reason That which he saith that the offices of our churchwardens and hospitall men are corrupt to the danger of the church and dishonour of the real me is nothing but a sound of great words without reason for neither are the offices so corrupt as he pretendeth nor is there in thē danger or disgrace nay the worst of our churchwardens are as honest wise and learned as his church-aldermen as fit to gouerne as they yea and our collectors be as good as his deacons and that hospitals be not corrupt T.C. will looke that is a master of an hospitall and a man voy de of all corruption and good dealing Quaere whether the Ecclesiasticall high commission be not in effect an Eldership wherein some gouerne with Ministers Put-case Quest 42. who by profession are temporall Lawyers Ciuilians meere laye men and whether this gouernment consisting of spirituall and temporall persons be a meddley and lynsey wolsey discipline as the Remonstrance calleth the Eldership which is now desired Nothing is more repugnant Answere nor with lesse reason compared together then the high commission eldership If I did not tell them so much yet me thinketh that their continuall declayming against the high cōmission as proceeding contrary to lawes might teache them so much for if they be so like as this fellowe nowe recanting his rayling against the high commission pretendeth why should not wee take exceptions against the imperious aldermanship of the church as these doe against
the high commission especially seeing that the high commission dealeth only by authority from the prince and is limitted with lawes and is subiect to the princes commaundement and dealeth onely in extraordinary cognitions and may bee reuoked and cassed as the prince shall thinke meete And where onely Ecclesiasticall persons meddle with the censures whereas contrariwise the imperious church-aldermen clayme no commission from the prince nay they challenge the power and vicarage of Christ Iesus and superioritie ouer all princes and deale in small and great causes yea clownes and doltes dispute of relgion and throw out excommunications and rule all without lawe or reason by the onely instinct of their vncleane spirit or rather changeable fancie and therefore the Remonstrance sayth well that it is a lynsey wolsey and motley discipline patched together by men of motley ierkins consisting of contrary pieces iumbling both Church and common wealth together while ministers are sent abroad to beg for their liuing and artificers and clownes rule like Lordes in the Consistorie prescribing Lawes to princes so that if the Libeller desire this goodly gallimafrey of discipline hee is more fitte to weare a motley cote with an addition of haukes belles then to gouerne a Church or any part of the common wealth Quaere Put-case Quest 43. if the sole gouernment of a bishop in a diocesse be sufficiēt and most agreeable to Gods worde why is there an ecclesiasticall commission standing of many persons ciuill and Ecclesiasticall or if an Ecclesiasticall commission bee needefull in a Realme why not in a Prouince If in a Prouince why not in a Diocesse If in a Diocesse why not in a Deanrie If in a Deanerie why not in a Parish Lastly why might there not without absurditie and breache of true vniformitie bee planted in some places already capable a Consistorie or Commission of Elders though the like cannot bee accomplished in all seeing there bee newe Ecclesiasticall Commissions erected Deanes and Chapters broken musicke and Organs in some places not in other To these three questions Answere which are the very crisis of the Put case dreaming furie I answere first that seeing the prince by the lawes of God is soueraine gouernour in all causes within her dominions that beside the ordinary iurisdiction of Bishops within their seuerall Diocesse it is very requisite that there should bee a superiour authoritie to assist them and to strengthen them and to supply that which is wanting and in case they doe not their dueties to correct them secondly that as the Prince is one so there ought to bee but one supreme authoritie although by that authoritie her Maiestie may appoynt diuers Commissioners and yet nothing commeth thereby to the Eldership that claymeth authoritie not from the prince but from God and would altogether breake the vnion of her gouernement while euery consistorie would rule the congregation vnder it as best pleaseth my lords the church aldermen As for the gradation of the libeller if hee had vnderstoode any logicke he might haue learned that no kind of argument is more faultie by this reason a man might thus conclude against the libeller that if he will libell against authoritie hee will not spare the counsell if they withstande him if not the counsell neither will he spare the prince if hee contemne all humane lawes he will not greatly esteeme Gods lawes if hee care not for Gods lawe then will he not in the ende care for God himselfe likewise if the Sanedrin was at Ierusalem then in other cities if in cities then in boroughs so in villages and if the consistory be required in parishes then in villages if in villages then in hamlets if in hamlets then in houses if in houses then in the kitchin where the cooke is chiefe moderator which followe as well as his reasons many doe thinke that one high commission is inough too much for al England what then woulde they thinke if they should see in euery parish high commissioners yea what if there were but such cōmissioners as the aldermen of the cōsistonie be that claime a most absolute high commission from God planted in euery parish it would then be time to runne into some other countrey à remotis for it would bee hard liuing in England thirdly I say that there is no place in England capable of the aldermanshippe but such as is very capable of faction and disloyalty and that his reason drawen from organs and broken musicke is very weake for albeit there is broken musicke in some places and not in other yet can there be no elderships in any place for if any should bee placed the musicke of that companie compared with other places woulde sound like a paire of broken organes not onely like broken musicke and that gouernment would breake both Church and common wealth in pieces bring all out of tune they haue done it already in places where they be setled and were vnknowen to all antiquitie and therefore what reason haue wee to make triall of that which is like to prooue so dangerous Thus you haue heard all those contumelious cases questions and demands which this railing Putcase in his malicious fury hath thought good to propound not only to disgrace hurt the ecclesiastical state but also to ouerthrow law and gouernment if the course be lawful and honest who may not as well propound questions to the dishonor of any state or noble personage in the land there is no man of so rare merite nor so honorable but might if this course were suffered bee brought into enuie hatred and if I shoulde follow him in this course good Lord what shamefull and ridiculous matters do the publike and priuate actions of these factious persons offer to mens view al which albeit they deserue to heare yet it is not for me to speake neither do graue men desire to know I will only for requitall frame certaine interrogatories concerning the cause those persons which are principal agents in this cause that seeing how open they lye themselues they may hereafter deale more modestly with others if they follow this course I doe assure them that for euery one they haue propounded to vs there will be by some or other twentie propounded to them in the meane while let them content themselues with these and blame not me for I doe but answere and followe them seeing they haue begunne to come into this kind of field they must haue patience to stand to the hazard of warres if they would haue dealt ciuilly with me they should not haue ouercome me in curtesie CERTAINE QVESTIONS PROPOVNDED to the Putcase and his adherents wherein diuerse well affected to the state desire to be resolued QVaere whether hee that maketh doubt of the principles of our Christian faith bee not by the opinion of the ancient fathers an haeretike and whether the lawes do not condemne him for a traytor that maketh doubt of her Maiesties right to the
tooke for the establishing of theirs 51 Quaere whether T. Cartw. and his fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles 2 Examinations in the starre chamber and their own confessions there enacted and decreed certaine rules and orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and subscribed them and procured others to subscribe them and by all meanes possible gone about to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her maiestie and ancient gouernement of the Church Quaere whether in their saide 3 Disciplina sacra orders which they call holy discipline all authoritie in Church causes is not taken from the Christian magistrate and giuen to their assemblies in so much that the magistrate is not so much as mentioned when they talke of their new gouernement and how the sufferance of these proceedinges may stand with the maiestie of a prince or with good gouernment 53 Quaere whether they doe not 1 T.C. pag. 162 163 417. discours of eccl discip pag. 148. 174. holde that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their said platformes of discipline is neyther increased nor diminished whether the prince bee Christian or heathen and teach not that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one in ecclesiasticall causes 54 Quaere 2 That is in part euident by their confessions in the Starre chamber whether Cartwright and his adherentes haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent and authoritie and without the sayde authoritie haue not both made secrete meetings and established diuers orders and broched new opinions all contrary to the doctrine confession and gouernement of the Church of England 55 Quaere by what presumption he durst do these things and why hee is not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults 56 Quaere whether the same seditious proceedings bee not condemned in certaine actes made in the parliament holden Anno 1584 at Edenborough 57 Quaere 3 In his examinations in the Starre chamber whether Th. Cartwright sware truely in the Starre chamber when hee affirmed on his oath that hee neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery Monarchie there ought to bee certaine magistrates like the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to depose the king c. seeing the same poynt is in Fenners booke of diuinity which one Th. Cartwr in his Epistle printed before the booke doth highly commende as a profound piece of diuinity and heauenly axiomes and doctrine and whether if some other had so sworne they should not haue bene accounted periured persons and whether by the rules of discipline it bee lawfull for the edification of the consistorie to sweare falsely 58 Quaere 4 Examinations in the Starre chamber published whether haue not T.C. and his fellowes confessed on their oathes that notwithstanding all the care that hath beene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers poyntes and whether they did wisely to subscribe such orders or duetifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused platforme of gouernment to the parliament that it might bee confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and finally whether wisedome will permit men to dissolue a state alreadie setled and to embrace a gouerment whereupon the authours themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke neuer will bee and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice 59 Quaere 1 Ibid. whether T.C. and his companions doe not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the parliament for the approbation and receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernement commanded by Gods worde doe not vtterly disclaime by a most necessarie implication her Maiestie to haue any preheminence and authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they doe not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuill magistrate but yeelde all that power to their synodes classes and consistories 60 Quaere whether Cartwr and some of his fellowes and followers were not acquainted with the conspiracie of Hacket 1 Conspiracy for reformation Coppinger and Arthington and whether they knewe not that these fellowes or some of them pretended to haue an extraordinary calling which mooued them to attempt matters which might proue very dangerous to themselues whether also they knew not that the actions which they purposed to attempt by vertue of their calling did tende to their deliuerance out of prison and to the aduancing of the holy cause as they tearmed it and thereupon at Coppingers motion did holde a puritane fast wherein prayers were made to this effect that God woulde giue successe to all such meanes as shoulde bee attempted for the deliuerance of the Saintes of God and for the setting vp of their discipline and whether T. Cartw. and the wiser sort of them did not vnderstand whereto the foresaid allobrogicall and outlandish propositions of extraordinary callings did tend and finally whether all these points being such as in part haue and may fully bee prooued against them they haue not bene mercifully dealt withall and farre aboue their desertes that they haue not hitherto bene called therefore in question 61 Quaere whether Cartw. and his fellowes challenging to their eldership authority to excommunicate princes are not like to prooue as dangerous subiectes as Sanders Parsons or Card. Allen are in maintaining the popes excommunication of her Maiestie and whether it is not likely considering the inconstancie of their discipline and resolutions that although some of them pretend now to holde that excommunication doth not take away ciuill subiection they will notwithstanding for their aduantage teach contrary to their present resolutions 62 Quaere whether some one of the reformed 1 Buchanan de iure regniapud Scot. pag. 70. brotherhood haue not mainteyned in bookes printed that princes standing excommunicate may bee put to death and that when princes will not reforme religion subiects ought to do it and that saint 2 Buchan ibid. pag. 56. 57. Paules precepts of obedience to tyrants bind no further then vntil such time as the people is strong inough to resist be able to master them by force of armes 63 Quaere whether Sanders Rosse Allen and other papistes doe not in the behalfe of poperie maintaine the very same poyntes of rebellion together with Goodman Whittingham Knoxe and their teachers Beza Hotoman Buchanan and whether both factions haue not made princes subiect to the people and populer furie and taught the same doctrine of the beginning of the authoritie of princes the papistes seeking to erect their papacy the disciplinarians endeuouring to set vp their papall presbyterie 64 Quaere whether some of the doctors of this new discipline doe not mislike with the
his manifolde lewde demeanours and trecheries 73 Item because the Petitioner standeth so much vpon Vdals innocency refusing presumptuously as it should seeme any maner of fauour let him also answere whether the sayd Iohn Vdall was not acquainted with Hackets Copingers and Arthingtons conspiracy seeing that Copinger a litle before his outrage writ vnto him that now the Lorde had inabled him to fight to vanquish and ouercome that there was a Fast towardes in regarde of the afflicted Saintes in generall that hee assured himselfe that God would blesse the actors in that cause that there were diuers out of prison lying hid that in this great worke were hammering their heads c. that the same persons hoped in short time to bee brought forth into the sight of Vdals brethren and their owne enemies that their presence would daunt the enemies that God would vse base men in this worke lest men should boast in the arme of flesh that Vdall and his fellowes in prison should cheare vp their hearts for that the day of their redemption was at hand and that Vdall and his fellowe prisoners should pray that the hande of the Lorde might bee strengthened in them whom hee had appoynted to take parte with them quaere I say whether Iohn Vdall bee a loyall subiect that neuer reueiled this practise and bee not guiltie of farre more then euer was layd to his charge 74 Quaere whether the Petitioner hath not greatly hurt the cause of his clyent Vdall in giuing occasion to mention matters forgotten and almost forgiuen and whether taking parte with such fellowes himselfe is not an abettor of felonie 75 Quaere whether Th. Cartwr and master Eg. did not receiue letters from the conspirators concerning their designements and did not also conceale the same and whether the sayde master Eg. did not will the sayd Copinger to take heede that hee did not by his extraordinary calling hinder the great cause in hande and say that himselfe being an ordinary minister could not iudge of Copingers extraordinany calling and therefore would be lothe to quenche the spirit in him and whether these paraphrases of discipline stand with loyaltie and good diuinitie 76 Quaere whether T. C. and other disciplinarian teachers did not allowe the scornefull and wicked Libels of Martin and also certaine seditious dialogues and inuectiues against the State and whether their disciplinarian rules will beare them out in it 77 Quaere whether any is receiued or suffered to continue in the Ministerie at Geneua or other places gouerned like Geneua that make any scruple to subscribe or that speake against the orders of the church and whether certaine were not banished for speaking against wafer cakes there vsed in the Communion and against Vsurie and why factious persons should be more tolerated here then there 78 Quaere whether it bee a good course to suffer such as doe giue probable suspicions of discontentment with the present gouernment to continue gouernours of houses in Vniuersities and to teach schooles and to liue in the church which like vipers they seeke to ruinate 79 Quaere whether to procure a learned ministerie it be a good course to take away the rewardes of learning or at least to hazard them 80 Quaere howe many of the ministers of the reformed churches haue bene able to leaue so much to their wiues as to maintaine them from beggery and whether any man of worth can endure that indignitie and whether diuers for want of maintenance haue not fled the countrey of their habitation 81 Quaere of Pierce Putcase whether a pretended godly brother as you woulde say W. St. who is a piece of the putcase himselfe may by the lawes of this new kingdome like a thiefe or murtherer lye in wait by the high way side with a caliuer ready charged to kill his owne naturall brother for that he is not sufficiently reformed and whether this bee a sanctified course to win a brother to this melancholike reformation 82 Let also this question bee asked of the same man whether a disciplinarian brother whose wiues misgouernement made the poore man runne horne woode may notwithstanding bee choosen an alderman considering that Daneau a noble founder of this kingdome doth in his Isagogicall instructions holde that all the preceptes that Saint Paul giueth of bishops 1. Tim. 3. doe belong to the Church aldermen also and that it is required that such bishops bee chosen as can gouerne their house well and whether it is likely that he that hath no good head in gouerning his own house shoulde haue a good iudgement in gouerning of the Church 83 Item Quaere because he asketh me certaine questions of Th. Cartw. by what mysterie or science a man may sell a coate and 3 or 4 acres of land and purchase therewith 3 or 4 good lordships and yet maintaine a great familie and fare well and keepe a pedant to teach his daughters Hebrewe 84 Quaere also whether a learned sister that vnderstandeth some Greeke and Hebrewe may not in a parlour at a tables end paraphrase vpon a text of scripture according to the puritane stile and whether it bee not time for schollers to turne their bookes when such paraphrastes take on them to abuse scriptures 85 Quaere whether a trencher paraphrast I meane these that degorge discipline at full tables and vpon full stomacks at their benefactours tables are among those callings that saint Paul mentioneth Ephes 4. and not being how they dare presume to handle Gods word or rather to abuse holy scriptures in that sort 86 Item whether certaine sanctified brethren attained vnto 24 carrats of perfection in discipline may notwithstanding practise the Iewes trade and take 10. in the hundred or more if they can get it 87 Quaere whether a man may growe to that extremitie of burning zeale that euery spring and fall hee shall renewe like a serpent that casts her skinne as it happened to a certaine holy brother at Ipswich not many yeeres since and whether such a fellowe bee a fit man for a president of a consistorie 88 Quaere whether as in Italie and other places of poperie desperate wicked men runne into the order of Theatins or Capussins so certaine desperate bankeruptes and loose liuers as Bar. Fl. and others haue not suddenly runne into puritanisme and whether this alteration be not ab extremo in extremum by such men as will neuer come into medium 89 Quaere why it shoulde bee more lawfull for ignorant men of base trades and occupations to take vpon them the decision of matters of religion and gouernement of the Church then it is for Giles Wig. to become a malster and others of this sect to become grasiers and wiredrawers and such like 90 Quaere whether a godly brother rather then by selling his liuing he shoulde ouerthrowe his house 1 The doubt of Th. Sa. of Yorkeshire may not by the lawes of discipline breake bond and promise and suffer his sureties to lye by it and in
in his Church as these doe fancie I can no where find Neyther is it likely that he should teach that abroad which hee neuer deliuered to his owne Citizens at home Aretius 1 In 1. Cor. 12 speaketh of certaine elders in his Commentaries but whatsoeuer they were hee thinketh that they ought to haue no vse vnder the Christian Magistrate And therefore by this testimonie these fellowes cānot win any vantage That they were not like the disciplinarian Aldermen it may appeare for that during the times of persecution they supplied the magistrates office and dealt in all causes of the first Christians as hee thinketh Of such elders as Aretius speaketh of it may be that Illyricus had some such like conceit But farre were they both from the opinion of them of Geneua concerning their lordly consistorie that climeth vp aboue princes Out of 1 In 1. Cor. 12. Hemingius there cannot any such fancie bee gathered as this of my yong masters the Church aldermen writing vpon the 1. Corinth 12. hee doeth interprete the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordinances of ecclesiasticall discipline which amounteth nothing to the account of these fellowes yea hee alloweth the 2 Syntagm Heming prerogatiue and authoritie of Bishops aboue other ministers which can beare no sway among these lordly commanders The place of 3 In 1. Cor. 12. Hyperius maketh not to purpose for albeit he be produced by the libeller as a witnesse for the eldership yet doth hee testifie against it for hee saith not that any such aldermen as these conceyue were ioyned with the Bishop in gouernement and equall authoritie but that Bishops vsed the aduise of ancient and graue men not these rough hewen aldermen that are neyther wise nor graue but rather grieuous to Gods Church But most of all doe I wonder what reason the libeller had to cite 4 De reformand abusib ad Imperatorem Bucer who in the place quoted doth not so much as mention any elders much lesse teach their office qualitie and continuance but contrariwise hee sheweth that if there were no other difference betwixt the Papists and him hee would easily yeelde to bishops their titles and dignities and wisheth that Metropolitanes and other bishops woulde returne to the obseruance of ancient Canons And so farre was Bullinger from fauoring any such new packe of aldermen as these woulde haue that hee 5 In libr. erast de excom in fine yeelded his approbation to the opinion of Erastus that denied both the presbytery and presbyteriall censures Zegedin another of this mans witnesses doth say much against him concerning the 6 Loc. Com. pag. 202. superioritie of bishops and newe deuice of doctors and other poynts But where hee speaketh any one worde for the consistorial gouernours the place cannot yet be found what should I stand long in tracing out the notorious falsehood of this forger of false quotations in euery paticuler By these already examined you may vnderstand how honestly hee dealeth in the rest and by this also that it is knowen that the Churches of 1 Onely in the Palsgraues dition they say there is some haunt of the eldership to be found Germanie Denmarke and Zuitzerland doe all repell the eldership yea when certaine factious companions comming from Geneua would haue made some stirre in the ecclesiasticall gouernement at Zuricke Gualter resisted them and the magistrates sent them out of their citie to place their consistories in some other quarter in remotis Likewise doth he report vntrueth concerning M. Nowel M. Fulke and M. Whytaker M. Nowell speaketh some what concerning elders but that he meant the tēporary aldermen that sprung vp first at Geneua and now vse to come from the marchants stall and workehouse into the Church to order matters of faith and doctrine it cannot be surmised Neither hath the libeller any reason to build his fancies vpon M. Fulkes opinions for in the confutation of the notes of the Rhemish Testament he doth defend the gouernement of the Church of England as now it is albeit he was somtime of other mind yet did he afterward retract his former sayings And when Iohn Field contrary to his mind did publish the pamphlet called the learned discourse hee was offended with him and if he had liued would haue confuted the same himselfe Neither do I beleeue that M. Raynolds being so well conuersant in counsels and fathers doth admit an eldership contrary to the sayings and practise of both M. Whitaker is a man of too great iudgement to beleeue the vnlettered improbable deuise of the consistorie And well is it kowen that hee hath taught both publikely and priuately against it Neyther is it likely that hee hath nowe greater reasons to moue him since he maried in the tribe of those that fauour these conceites then before so that when al is come to all the authors of this discipline are 20 or 30 foreine authors and halfe a score English perfumed with the smoke of Geneua and wel read in Caluins Institutions And the grounds of it are not scripture nor antiquitie nor reason but conceyte and foolish fancie and the authoritie of such as deserue no credite speaking in their owne cause If the libeller thinke otherwise let him or else because hee is but a man of a weake brayne and small learning let any of the faction drawfoorth Caluins and Bezaes reasons nay let either Beza himselfe or any of them answere that which hath bene set forth against their opinions already and confirme Caluins and Bezaes weake and euill shapen reasons and then will the vanitie of all the newe platforme and also of these allegations appeare To prooue the continuance of the gouernement by Elders he falsifieth also diuers authors as Zuinglius Oecolampadius Capito Melancthon Bullinger and maketh lyes vpon Fulke and Reynoldes for I thinke master Raynoldes holdeth no such fancy And I am assured that Fulke retracted his opinion so that his onelie reason also for the continuance of the Eldership is because Miconius Micronius and Caluin Beza Daneau and Calueton Colladon Tauergues Perot Iacomot Duple Golart Pollan Perille Henry others neuer heard of in this horisō beleeue the continuance of the consistorial gouernment that we must renounce scriptures fathers and al antiquity which is neither a good nor learned kind of reasoning yet for any thing I can see it is not onely the best but also the onely reason he vseth deny the new fācies that they haue deuised embraced at Geneua you marre the frame of their consistory why wee should credit them against scriptures fathers stories there can be alledged no cause Much lesse is there reason we should beleeue Peter Carpenter a knowen Apostata from religion or Bodin a man better conuersant in pollicy then in diuinity and whose religion was al poperie yet if we should I do not finde any thing in eyther that soundeth to the honor of the Aldermens cause For 1 Aduers Fr.
portum Carpenter the matter is euident for he most bitterly inueigheth against them of Geneua and not very doubtful in 1 Bodini methodus historiae c. 6. Bodin For the wordes alleadged out of Bodin his methode of histories concerne the Aldermen nothing He speaketh of the censure of Bishops and did neuer imagine nor could conceiue that the censures of the Church were put in the hands of prophane men Illa pontificum censura saith he nihil maius aut diuinius cogitari potuit Secondly he doeth not commend the men he speaketh of but the censures for that they were so strictly executed Which commendation if magistrates were as willing to execute the censures of ecclesiastical Iudges with vs as at Geneua they are would no doubt worke like effectes with vs as with them And if the magistrate should not fauour them they would doe litle good in any place Thirdly he commendeth the same censure not as the institution of Christ or as a necessarie pollicie for the Church but as a very good pollitike and ciuill order deuised by men to keepe the common sort in awe But what if Bodin should say somewhat of matters he vnderstoode not his authoritie is very weake in this case being neither good in diuinitie nor excellent in pollicie and neither vnderstanding the state of Geneua nor our countrie and therefore no fit man to make vs here in England new lawes In the Harmony of Confessions there are certaine wordes inserted sounding much to the commendation of the Eldership Neither is it to be marueiled if they of Geneua that collected thē together made the wordes to sound as fauourably as might be for their owne state and gouernement but that all the churches or most of thē yea or any saue the disciples of the Geneuian eldership consent in one harmony of prayses of that forme of discipline cannot be proued No although the authors with 2 See the notes in the latter ende of the harmonie notorious falsifications wresting and forgerie drawe the sentences of the confessions frō their purpose to speake for the presbyterial gouernment Wherefore vnlesse the petitioner can iustifie this kinde of practise there is not so much credit wonne by the vaine names of Carpenter Bodin and the confessions of Churches as there is lost by forgerie falsifications and grosse leasings To strengthen the weake ioynts of this discrasied reason drawen frō authority he saith Frist that the consistorial gouernment is also receiued of the Churches of Heluetia the low countries Millain Poland and Hungarie Secōdly that it is vnder the Turke among the papists wherein he sheweth either singuler malice in lying wilfully or presumptuous ignorance in speaking of matters he vnderstood not For it is wel knowen that the churches of Heluetia neither haue Geneuian elders nor excōmunication And that the churches of the lowe countries to speake nothing of France nor Scotland liue in great confusiō disorder a matter rather to moue vs to refuse the consistorie then to embrace it And likewise it is euident that in Millaine Hungarie there is no visible church but of those that professe poperie And albeit there be some fewe elders amōg the papists of France Germanie and Hungarie yet doe they not shew thēselues nor haue they any allowance or thankes for being there But what maner of conclusion is this That because among papistes and Turkes Elders are receiued that we must also receiue them There are also Anabaptists Arrians and I know not how many heresies among the Turkes papistes which no reason requireth vs to embrace Poperie likewise is professed vnder the Turke not onely this consistorial discipline So that nothing can be more absurde then to conclude that therefore we are to admitte the Consistorie because it is crept in in Turky and among the papistes Likewise it is a vaine bragge to say That in the Church of Geneua Scotland France there bee thousands and ten thousands of the best diuines of the worlde I would the number of them were greater and their learning more excellent then it is I doe not enuie their nombers nor excellēcie but the rewarde of learning taken away and the great decay that hath hapned of late time in those churches doeth both teach vs what is now and what we are to feare and that when the reckonnig of good diuines is made it will come farre short of thousands much shorter of tenne thousands The ignorance want of ministers in France other Consistoriall places is too too lamentable such is the blessing of this countrie that one corner of England is able to match them all eyther in nomber or qualitie of learned men albeit we doe not reason from our owne authoritie The conclusion therefore that this bedlem discourser maketh is too too foppish viz. that Caluin and Beza and Tauergues and Chauueton and Perot and I know not who are more likely to finde out the trueth then the author of the remonstrance and my selfe for no man standeth vpon the authoritie of vs two though the simpler of vs in this cause feareth not T. Cartw. nor W. Trau no nor Beza their patriarke nor all their brags Neither doe I desire any man to beleeue me because I say so this is onely the conclusion of the platformers that beside the authoritie of men can say nothing for themselues But seing the interpretations of the consistoriall faction are fond fantastical singuler and contrary to scriptures to the Iewes histories to all the fathers and counsels yea contrary to all reason good concluding agree badly among thēselues and finally stand vpon the fooleries of the Geneuians their stupide followers vpon their falshood forgerie false allegatiōs abusing of scriptures I do thinke and auow that neither diuinitie nor humaine reason wil permit any man any longer to be abused by them or to giue credit to those that vse them Wherefore cōsidering the weake groundes which the consistoriall gouernement standeth vpon and the forgerie falshood and impudencie whereby it is supported and the disorder and confusion it would worke in the church in learning in lawes in her Maiesties authoritie in her reuenues in euery mans priuate right beside if it were receiued and lastly the seditious lewd courses that some men haue taken to establish the same If some haue bin punished it cannot be denied but that they haue wel deserued it yea that they haue deserued more punishment and lesse fauour For neuer was matter preferred with worse course which I doe not speake for that I would haue either the disciplinarians faultes or penalties aggrauated for the faults are grieuous in ough already and the punishment I referre to our superiors but least any should surmise they are wronged or that the lawes are rigorous or that the proceedings of her Maiestie and officers against them are iniurious For further declaration whereof I haue thought good not onely to answere the vaine cauils of the petitioner against the proceedings of