a_o reply_n to_o mr._n rutherfurd_n or_o a_o defence_n of_o the_o answer_n to_o reverend_a mr._n herles_a book_n against_o the_o independency_n of_o church_n wherein_o such_o objection_n and_o answer_n as_o be_v return_v to_o sundry_a passage_n in_o the_o say_a answer_n by_o mr._n samuel_n rutherfurd_n a_o godly_a and_o learned_a brother_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n in_o his_o book_n entitle_v the_o due_a right_n of_o presbyter_n be_v examine_v and_o remove_v and_o the_o answer_v justify_v and_o clear_v by_o richard_n maâ—her_n teacher_n to_o the_o church_n at_o dorchester_n in_o new_a england_n 1646._o london_n print_v for_o j._n rothwell_n and_o h._n allen_n at_o the_o sun_n and_o fountain_n in_o paul_n churchyard_n and_o the_o crown_n in_o popes-head_n alley_n 1647_o the_o author_n preface_n to_o the_o reader_n christian_n reader_n have_v publish_v some_o year_n ago_o a_o small_a treatise_n in_o way_n of_o a_o brotherly_a answer_n to_o reverend_a master_n herle_v i_o now_o present_a unto_o thy_o view_n a_o defence_n thereof_o against_o such_o objection_n and_o answer_n as_o have_v be_v return_v to_o sundry_a passage_n therein_o by_o reverend_a and_o learned_a master_n rutherfurd_n in_o which_o undertake_v it_o have_v be_v far_o from_o my_o intention_n to_o increase_v or_o uphold_v the_o difference_n that_o have_v appear_v of_o late_a year_n in_o england_n among_o the_o servant_n of_o the_o lord_n about_o matter_n of_o church_n government_n for_o i_o have_v much_o rather_o bring_v prayer_n and_o tear_n for_o the_o quench_n of_o such_o fire_n than_o fuel_n or_o oil_n for_o the_o increase_n thereof_o neither_o shall_v the_o same_o i_o hope_v be_v any_o thing_n at_o all_o increase_v by_o what_o here_o i_o present_v now_o thy_o view_n at_o the_o least_o this_o i_o may_v say_v that_o i_o intend_v no_o such_o thing_n but_o the_o contrary_a even_o the_o promote_a of_o truth_n and_o peace_n if_o it_o be_v the_o will_n of_o god_n so_o to_o bless_v my_o desire_n and_o endeavour_n true_a it_o be_v i_o have_v take_v the_o liberty_n to_o consider_v and_o try_v some_o thing_n deliver_v by_o that_o reverend_a brother_n who_o here_o i_o have_v to_o do_v withal_o but_o this_o i_o trust_v can_v be_v just_o offensive_a in_o as_o much_o as_o the_o spirit_n of_o the_o prophet_n be_v subject_a to_o the_o prophet_n 1_o cor._n 14._o 32._o and_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o apostle_n himself_o be_v examine_v by_o those_o noble_a berean_o who_o the_o holy_a ghost_n commend_v for_o search_v the_o scripture_n daily_o whether_o those_o thing_n be_v so_o act._n 17._o 11._o it_o be_v also_o true_a which_o our_o reverend_a brother_n say_v in_o his_o epistle_n to_o the_o reader_n before_o his_o peaceable_a plea_n that_o there_o be_v great_a cause_n of_o sorrow_n that_o all_o the_o lord_n people_n shall_v not_o mind_v one_o thing_n and_o sing_v one_o song_n and_o join_v in_o one_o against_o the_o child_n of_o babel_n nevertheless_o this_o may_v be_v some_o comfort_n against_o this_o sorrow_n that_o by_o the_o providence_n of_o the_o lord_n this_o diversity_n of_o opinion_n and_o dispute_n if_o it_o be_v christianly_o carry_v as_o it_o may_v may_v occasion_n and_o produce_v in_o the_o issue_n the_o further_o clear_v up_o of_o truth_n for_o as_o our_o author_n well_o observe_v from_o the_o collision_n of_o opinion_n result_v truth_n and_o dispute_v as_o strike_v flint_n cast_v fire_n for_o light_n due_a right_n of_o presbyt_fw-la epistle_n to_o the_o reader_n the_o desire_n and_o hope_v whereof_o together_o with_o the_o advice_n of_o such_o brethren_n as_o i_o consult_v withal_o be_v that_o which_o chief_o prevail_v with_o i_o for_o the_o publish_n of_o this_o reply_n wherein_o the_o reader_n will_v find_v sundry_a scripture_n and_o question_n controvert_v in_o these_o time_n discuss_v and_o consider_v so_o far_o as_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o reply_n or_o defence_n do_v lead_v thereto_o and_o i_o hope_v some_o or_o other_o through_o god_n blessing_n may_v receive_v some_o profit_n thereby_o and_o if_o the_o humble_a christian_a who_o desire_v to_o know_v and_o love_n and_o practice_v the_o truth_n shall_v receive_v any_o benefit_n or_o help_v for_o attain_v these_o end_n by_o mean_n of_o this_o labour_n of_o i_o it_o be_v that_o which_o i_o intend_v and_o aim_v at_o and_o for_o which_o i_o desire_v that_o god_n alone_o may_v have_v the_o praise_n and_o glory_n if_o any_o shall_v still_o remain_v otherwise_o mind_v yet_o in_o due_a time_n i_o hope_v god_n shall_v reveal_v even_o this_o unto_o they_o in_o the_o mean_a time_n diversity_n of_o apprehension_n in_o these_o point_n ought_v not_o to_o breed_v any_o alienation_n of_o affection_n among_o those_o that_o be_v otherwise_o orthodox_n and_o sincere_a it_o be_v a_o thousand_o pity_n if_o it_o shall_v for_o my_o part_n i_o can_v but_o approve_v what_o this_o reverend_a brother_n sometime_o profess_v that_o he_o do_v both_o love_n and_o dispute_v contradict_v and_o reverence_v at_o once_o peaceable_a plea_n epist_n yea_o he_o count_v himself_o a_o debtor_n for_o love_n charity_n honour_n and_o all_o due_a respect_n in_o christ_n jesus_n and_o a_o seat_n and_o lodging_n in_o his_o heart_n and_o high_a esteem_n to_o all_o those_o that_o be_v godly_a lover_n of_o the_o truth_n and_o sufferer_n for_o the_o truth_n against_o prelacy_n though_o possible_o they_o like_v not_o well_o of_o presbyterial_a government_n ibid._n in_o answer_v whereto_o for_o i_o will_v be_v loath_a that_o such_o love_n shall_v be_v lose_v upon_o we_o without_o due_a return_n of_o the_o like_a i_o will_v for_o my_o part_n profess_v the_o like_a dear_a and_o due_a respect_n to_o all_o those_o that_o be_v qualify_v as_o here_o he_o do_v describe_v of_o which_o sort_n i_o know_v there_o be_v many_o though_o possible_o they_o may_v like_v better_o of_o the_o way_n that_o be_v call_v presbyterial_a then_o of_o the_o congregationall_a for_o those_o that_o give_v apparent_a testimony_n that_o they_o be_v the_o lord_n and_o so_o that_o they_o must_v live_v together_o in_o heaven_n i_o know_v not_o why_o they_o shall_v not_o love_v one_o another_o on_o earth_n what_o ever_o difference_n of_o apprehension_n may_v for_o the_o present_a be_v find_v among_o they_o in_o some_o thing_n as_o for_o bitterness_n of_o spirit_n and_o tartness_n of_o contest_v i_o never_o think_v that_o to_o be_v god_n way_n of_o promote_a truth_n among_o brethren_n and_o therefore_o i_o have_v endeavour_v in_o this_o discourse_n to_o avoid_v the_o same_o for_o i_o believe_v there_o be_v more_o hope_n of_o do_v good_a by_o solidity_n of_o argument_n with_o a_o spirit_n of_o meekness_n and_o love_n then_o by_o sharp_a and_o tart_a language_n the_o fruit_n of_o bitterness_n of_o spirit_n wherein_o for_o the_o most_o part_n right_a of_o reason_n be_v want_v the_o passion_n be_v there_o most_o vehement_a and_o stir_a where_o the_o intellectual_n be_v most_o â—eeble_a and_o weak_a now_o if_o any_o ask_v why_o this_o defence_n have_v be_v so_o long_o defer_v it_o be_v now_o two_o year_n and_o more_o since_o master_n rutherfurd_n his_o due_a right_n of_o presbyt_fw-la come_v forth_o such_o may_v be_v please_v to_o consider_v that_o new_a england_n be_v as_o it_o be_v count_v 3000_o mile_n distant_a from_o old_a therefore_o many_o book_n may_v be_v extant_a in_o england_n a_o long_a time_n afore_o we_o that_o be_v so_o remote_a can_v so_o much_o as_o hear_v any_o sound_n thereof_o and_o those_o few_o that_o come_v to_o our_o knowledge_n be_v common_o extant_a in_o england_n a_o matter_n of_o a_o year_n space_n afore_o and_o sometime_o long_o in_o which_o respect_n many_o thing_n may_v be_v speak_v and_o print_v against_o we_o whereto_o it_o can_v be_v expect_v that_o we_o shall_v return_v any_o speedy_a answer_n and_o though_o it_o be_v now_o twelve_o month_n ago_o or_o more_o since_o master_n rutherfurd_n his_o due_a right_n of_o presbyt_fw-la come_v to_o my_o hand_n yet_o at_o that_o time_n my_o few_o spare_a hour_n from_o my_o constant_a and_o ordinary_a employment_n be_v whole_o take_v up_o otherwise_o so_o that_o i_o can_v not_o attend_v this_o business_n any_o soon_o which_o i_o desire_v may_v be_v accept_v as_o a_o just_a apology_n for_o the_o late_a come_n forth_o of_o this_o reply_n which_o as_o it_o may_v seem_v late_o so_o it_o be_v more_o large_a then_o in_o some_o respect_n i_o can_v have_v desire_v by_o reason_n that_o i_o do_v usual_o transcribe_v those_o word_n of_o master_n rutherfurd_n whereto_o i_o dâ—e_v apply_v my_o answer_n which_o course_n i_o confess_v i_o do_v not_o unwilling_o in_o some_o respect_n choose_v partly_o to_o save_v the_o reader_n a_o labour_n of_o turn_v to_o the_o place_n in_o master_n rutherfurd_n which_o i_o be_o speak_v too_o which_o else_o he_o must_v have_v do_v or_o
reason_n which_o do_v show_v that_o the_o jew_n and_o they_o be_v very_o unlike_a the_o jew_n have_v a_o supreme_a judicatory_a for_o the_o final_a end_n of_o cruse_n and_o they_o have_v none_o be_v to_o show_v ourselves_o very_o irrational_a or_o worse_o end_v why_o our_o brother_n shall_v put_v such_o a_o thing_n upon_o we_o we_o be_v no_o way_n guilty_a thereof_o we_o do_v not_o know_v but_o we_o desire_v that_o our_o reason_n may_v be_v apply_v to_o our_o own_o conclusion_n to_o which_o we_o do_v and_o do_v apply_v it_o and_o not_o to_o this_o other_o express_v by_o our_o brother_n which_o indeed_o be_v none_o of_o we_o and_o then_o we_o be_v content_v that_o rational_a and_o judicious_a reader_n may_v judge_v whether_o or_o no_o there_o be_v any_o sufficient_a weight_n therein_o which_o that_o they_o may_v more_o ready_o do_v i_o have_v here_o recollect_v the_o same_o into_o this_o short_a sum_n that_o they_o may_v brief_o behold_v it_o with_o one_o view_n viz_o if_o the_o jew_n have_v a_o supreme_a judicatory_a for_o the_o final_a end_n of_o cause_n and_o the_o congregationall_a way_n have_v the_o like_a if_o the_o jew_n have_v a_o stand_v judicatory_a always_o in_o readiness_n for_o the_o hear_n of_o cause_n and_o the_o congregationall_a way_n have_v the_o like_a and_o if_o the_o supreme_a judicatory_a among_o the_o jew_n be_v very_o far_o remote_a from_o many_o of_o they_o and_o in_o the_o congregationall_a way_n be_v more_o convenient_a and_o near_o at_o hand_n than_o the_o congregationall_a way_n be_v in_o some_o thing_n equal_a to_o the_o jew_n and_o in_o other_o thing_n more_o excellent_a but_o the_o first_o be_v true_a in_o all_o the_o particular_n and_o therefore_o the_o second_o be_v true_a also_o again_o if_o the_o jew_n have_v a_o supreme_a judicatory_a for_o the_o final_a end_n of_o cause_n and_o the_o way_n of_o our_o brethren_n have_v not_o if_o the_o jew_n have_v a_o stand_v judicatory_a always_o in_o readiness_n for_o the_o hear_n of_o cause_n and_o the_o way_n of_o our_o brethren_n have_v not_o and_o if_o the_o supreme_a judicatory_a among_o the_o jew_n be_v very_o remote_a from_o many_o of_o they_o and_o synod_n among_o our_o brethren_n be_v the_o same_o than_o the_o way_n of_o our_o brethren_n be_v in_o some_o thing_n as_o defective_a as_o the_o jew_n and_o in_o other_o thing_n more_o defective_a than_o they_o but_o the_o first_o be_v true_a in_o all_o the_o particular_n of_o it_o and_o therefore_o the_o second_o be_v true_a also_o both_o the_o assumption_n in_o all_o the_o branch_n thereof_o i_o conceive_v be_v clear_o prove_v in_o the_o answer_n in_o the_o page_n which_o our_o brother_n do_v allege_v and_o whether_o the_o consequence_n be_v good_a let_v the_o wise_a judge_n have_v thus_o reduce_v our_o argumentation_n to_o its_o own_o proper_a and_o genuine_a shape_n let_v we_o now_o consider_v of_o mr._n rutherford_n answer_v thereto_o first_o say_v he_o the_o speediness_n of_o end_v controversy_n in_o a_o congregation_n be_v bad_o comprise_v with_o the_o suddenness_n and_o temerity_n of_o deliver_v man_n to_o satan_n upon_o the_o decision_n of_o three_o elder_n without_o so_o much_o as_o ask_v advise_v of_o any_o class_n of_o elder_n and_o with_o decide_v question_n deep_a and_o grave_a which_o concern_v many_o church_n which_o be_v a_o put_n of_o a_o private_a sickle_n in_o a_o common_a and_o public_a harvest_n answ_n if_o advise_v from_o other_o church_n may_v be_v have_v we_o never_o speak_v word_n for_o do_v weighty_a matter_n without_o the_o same_o but_o in_o such_o case_n it_o be_v both_o our_o practice_n and_o advise_v to_o make_v use_n thereof_o and_o therefore_o this_o deliver_v man_n to_o satan_n in_o way_n of_o temerity_n or_o rashness_n touch_v not_o we_o who_o opinion_n and_o practice_n be_v other_o wise_a as_o for_o suddenness_n i_o conceive_v if_o the_o same_o be_v sometime_o accompany_v with_o temerity_n and_o rashness_n and_o so_o worthy_a to_o be_v blame_v yet_o not_o always_o for_o in_o the_o reformation_n of_o the_o house_n of_o god_n in_o the_o day_n of_o hezekiah_n it_o be_v say_v that_o the_o thing_n be_v do_v sudden_o 2_o chron._n 29._o 36._o where_o suddenness_n do_v not_o signify_v any_o sinful_a temerity_n or_o râ—shnesle_n but_o contrary_o do_v testify_v god_n great_a goodnesle_n that_o have_v so_o prepare_v the_o people_n to_o so_o good_a a_o work_n for_o this_o cause_n this_o suddenness_n be_v to_o hezekiah_n and_o god_n people_n a_o occasion_n and_o ground_n of_o great_a joy_n and_o gladness_n which_o temerity_n can_v not_o have_v be_v and_o therefore_o suddenness_n and_o temerity_n must_v not_o always_o be_v confound_v and_o couple_v together_o as_o if_o they_o be_v the_o same_o though_o hasty_a deliver_v of_o man_n to_o satan_n without_o due_a consideration_n be_v not_o good_a yet_o overlong_o delay_v of_o due_a proceed_n against_o delinquent_n be_v bad_a also_o for_o the_o holy_a ghost_n tell_v we_o because_o sentence_v against_o a_o evil_a work_n be_v not_o execute_v speedy_o therefore_o the_o heart_n of_o the_o son_n of_o man_n be_v full_o set_v to_o do_v evil_a eccl._n 8._o 11._o for_o which_o cause_n execute_v judgement_n in_o the_o morning_n that_o be_v to_o say_v speedy_o be_v sometime_o express_o require_v jer._n 21._o 12._o which_o be_v speak_v of_o justice_n to_o be_v execute_v by_o civil_a authority_n do_v hold_v by_o proportion_n and_o like_a reason_n in_o ecclesiastical_a censure_n for_o as_o much_o as_o speedinesle_n be_v a_o duty_n and_o delay_n be_v daangerous_a in_o the_o one_o case_n as_o well_o as_o in_o the_o other_o whereas_o our_o author_n think_v much_o that_o excommunication_n shall_v proceed_v upon_o the_o decision_n of_o three_o elder_n as_o we_o know_v nothing_o but_o a_o congregation_n may_v have_v more_o elder_n than_o the_o three_o if_o god_n provide_v they_o fit_a man_n and_o the_o numerousnesse_n of_o the_o congregation_n so_o require_v in_o which_o case_n our_o author_n say_v nothing_o to_o the_o contrary_a but_o they_o may_v have_v power_n to_o excommunicate_v so_o if_o they_o have_v but_o three_o we_o know_v nothing_o in_o this_o but_o they_o may_v have_v power_n to_o excommunicate_v notwithstanding_o since_o himself_o teach_v due_a right_n page_n 61._o that_o the_o jew_n have_v their_o congregationall_a church_n as_o we_o have_v and_o have_v their_o meeting_n in_o their_o synagogue_n not_o only_o for_o doctrine_n but_o also_o for_o discipline_n and_o excommunication_n which_o if_o it_o be_v so_o it_o seem_v there_o may_v be_v excommunication_n by_o as_o small_a a_o number_n as_o three_o unless_o it_o can_v appear_v that_o in_o every_o synagogue_n the_o elder_n and_o ruler_n in_o it_o be_v a_o great_a number_n than_o be_v here_o mention_v which_o be_v more_o than_o i_o do_v remember_v to_o be_v express_v in_o scripture_n yea_o and_o further_o he_o tell_v we_o that_o the_o inferior_a judicature_n in_o israel_n have_v power_n of_o life_n and_o death_n page_n 315._o now_o the_o judge_n in_o these_o inferior_a judicature_n though_o they_o must_v never_o be_v under_o that_o number_n of_o three_o yet_o they_o do_v not_o always_o exceed_v the_o same_o for_o aught_o that_o do_v appear_v and_o if_o three_o judge_n have_v power_n of_o life_n and_o death_n why_o may_v not_o a_o congregation_n with_o three_o elder_n have_v power_n of_o excommunication_n moreover_o in_o his_o page_n 454._o he_o give_v we_o these_o word_n for_o a_o proposition_n that_o it_o flow_v connatural_o from_o a_o church_n to_o which_o agree_v the_o essence_n of_o church_n to_o exercise_v jurisdiction_n over_o all_o its_o own_o member_n to_o which_o those_o word_n do_v also_o agree_v page_n 287._o viz._n the_o power_n and_o right_a to_o discipline_n be_v a_o propriety_n essential_a to_o a_o church_n and_o be_v not_o remove_v from_o it_o till_o god_n remove_v the_o candlestick_n and_o the_o church_n cease_v to_o be_v a_o visible_a church_n and_o in_o page_n 302._o he_o afford_v we_o these_o word_n for_o a_o assumption_n that_o a_o congregation_n be_v a_o church_n want_v nothing_o of_o the_o be_v and_o essence_n of_o a_o church_n and_o hence_o the_o conclusion_n be_v obvious_a that_o a_o congregation_n may_v exercise_v jurisdiction_n over_o all_o it_o own_o member_n and_o in_o as_o much_o as_o a_o congregation_n in_o which_o be_v but_o three_o elder_n be_v a_o congregation_n it_o follow_v that_o a_o congregation_n in_o which_o be_v but_o three_o elder_n may_v exercise_v such_o jurisdiction_n this_o conclusion_n our_o author_n can_v deny_v in_o as_o much_o as_o it_o necessary_o and_o direct_o follow_v from_o premise_n which_o be_v both_o his_o own_o yea_o in_o his_o page_n 302._o hâ—_n say_v that_o this_o be_v a_o principle_n of_o church_n policy_n that_o every_o politic_a body_n of_o christ_n have_v power_n of_o church_n government_n
or_o unâ—it_a thing_n that_o the_o whole_a church_n at_o corinth_n shall_v come_v together_o in_o one_o place_n than_o they_o do_v not_o so_o come_v together_o but_o the_o first_o be_v true_a ergo_fw-la the_o second_o be_v true_a also_o in_o which_o kind_n of_o reason_v such_o be_v our_o weakness_n we_o think_v neither_o part_n of_o the_o argument_n to_o be_v free_a from_o just_a exception_n for_o as_o we_o whole_o deny_v the_o assumption_n so_o we_o also_o think_v there_o be_v no_o sufficient_a strength_n of_o consequence_n in_o the_o main_a proposition_n forasmuch_o as_o sundry_a thing_n be_v practise_v in_o that_o church_n which_o be_v no_o way_n fit_v not_o meet_v to_o be_v practise_v and_o which_o the_o apostle_n do_v therefore_o reprove_v and_o seek_v the_o redress_n of_o the_o same_o witness_v their_o faction_n and_o division_n chap._n 1._o &_o 3_o their_o neglect_a church_n censure_v against_o the_o incestuous_a person_n and_o on_o the_o contrary_n be_v puff_v up_o chap._n 5._o their_n go_v to_o law_n one_o with_o another_o before_o the_o infidel_n chap._n 6._o their_o abuse_n in_o prayer_n and_o prophesy_v their_o woman_n uncover_v and_o their_o man_n cover_v chap._n 11._o their_o abuse_n in_o the_o lord_n supper_n when_o they_o so_o come_v unto_o it_o that_o one_o be_v hungry_a and_o another_o drunken_a chap._n 11._o now_o as_o it_o be_v a_o unsufficient_a kind_n of_o argue_v to_o say_v these_o thing_n be_v unfit_a and_o unmeet_a and_o therefore_o that_o church_n do_v not_o so_o practice_v even_o so_o mr._n rutherford_n his_o argue_v seem_v to_o be_v no_o better_o who_o will_v prove_v they_o do_v come_v together_o in_o one_o place_n because_o the_o apostle_n as_o he_o think_v do_v count_v such_o come_n together_o unmeet_a for_o if_o it_o be_v grant_v that_o such_o a_o come_n have_v be_v unmeet_a yet_o it_o do_v not_o follow_v but_o such_o may_v be_v their_o practice_n notwithstanding_o and_o therefore_o as_o he_o count_v our_o apprehension_n in_o this_o matter_n to_o be_v weak_a so_o i_o leave_v it_o to_o himself_o and_o other_o to_o consider_v whether_o in_o this_o consequence_n it_o be_v not_o meet_v they_o shall_v all_o come_v together_o in_o one_o place_n ergo_fw-la they_o do_v it_o not_o be_v very_o strong_a i_o desire_v here_o not_o to_o be_v mistake_v for_o i_o do_v not_o grant_v that_o their_o come_n together_o in_o one_o place_n be_v unmeet_a nor_o that_o the_o apostle_n do_v reprove_v they_o for_o the_o same_o i_o have_v already_o say_v the_o contrary_a in_o deny_v the_o assumption_n afore_o mention_v which_o i_o do_v still_o deny_v but_o the_o thing_n i_o intend_v be_v to_o consider_v the_o strength_n of_o mr._n rutherford_n his_o reason_n and_o for_o that_o cause_n to_o apply_v it_o to_o the_o thing_n in_o question_n which_o i_o still_o desire_v to_o keep_v close_o unto_o if_o it_o may_v be_v now_o the_o thing_n in_o question_n be_v this_o whether_o the_o church_n at_o corinth_n be_v so_o many_o at_o that_o they_o can_v nor_o meet_v together_o in_o one_o assembly_n but_o have_v many_o congregation_n and_o all_o but_o one_o church_n and_o mr_n rutherford_n maintain_v the_o affirmative_a and_o bring_v this_o reason_n for_o it_o take_v from_o the_o congruity_n of_o meet_v all_o together_o i_o therefore_o think_v meet_v to_o weigh_v the_o strength_n of_o this_o reason_n which_o i_o do_v not_o perceive_v to_o be_v in_o any_o wise_a convince_a but_o suppose_v the_o apostle_n have_v count_v such_o meeting_n inconvenient_a and_o unmeet_a yet_o this_o reason_n as_o i_o conceive_v be_v too_o weak_a to_o prove_v mr._n rutherford_n his_o purpose_n that_o their_o number_n be_v such_o as_o that_o they_o can_v not_o all_o possible_o meet_v in_o one_o place_n for_o they_o may_v possible_o do_v that_o which_o be_v unmeet_a to_o be_v do_v in_o this_o particular_a as_o well_o as_o they_o do_v in_o many_o other_o thing_n but_o in_o this_o particular_a i_o do_v not_o think_v they_o do_v any_o thing_n absurd_a or_o unmeet_a at_o all_o and_o therefore_o for_o further_a answer_n to_o this_o reason_n i_o will_v say_v that_o the_o apostle_n do_v not_o say_v the_o absurdity_n where_o mr._n rutherford_n lay_v it_o to_o wit_n in_o that_o the_o whole_a church_n do_v convene_v and_o come_v together_o but_o in_o speak_v with_o strange_a tongue_n when_o they_o be_v convene_v this_o latter_a be_v incongruous_a and_o absurd_a indeed_o for_o the_o infidel_n come_v into_o the_o church_n assembly_n and_o hear_v they_o so_o speak_v may_v think_v they_o mad_a as_o the_o apostle_n say_v but_o for_o assemble_v all_o in_o one_o place_n i_o know_v no_o madness_n that_o be_v in_o that_o nor_o show_v thereof_o nor_o do_v i_o yet_o believe_v that_o the_o apostle_n do_v place_v the_o absurdity_n there_o for_o though_o mr._n rutherford_n be_v a_o worthy_a man_n and_o learned_a yet_o such_o a_o thing_n as_o this_o have_v need_n of_o some_o further_a proof_n than_o his_o bare_a word_n if_o a_o church_n shall_v meet_v distributive_o in_o divers_a assembly_n and_o be_v so_o meet_v shall_v speak_v with_o strange_a tongue_n i_o demand_v whether_o this_o manner_n of_o speak_v do_v prove_v such_o a_o way_n of_o meet_v absurd_a i_o suppose_v he_o will_v say_v no_o because_o it_o be_v the_o way_n of_o meeting_n which_o he_o hold_v the_o apostolic_a church_n do_v use_v and_o if_o so_o then_o suppose_v they_o shall_v so_o speak_v with_o strange_a tongue_n when_o they_o meet_v collective_o all_o in_o one_o assembly_n how_o can_v this_o manner_n of_o speak_v conclude_v the_o absurdity_n of_o such_o kind_n of_o meet_v any_o more_o than_o it_o do_v in_o the_o other_o for_o my_o part_n though_o such_o kind_n of_o speak_v have_v incongruity_n and_o inconveniency_n in_o it_o yet_o i_o conceive_v assemble_v collective_o and_o in_o one_o congregation_n be_v no_o more_o prejudice_v thereby_o then_o assemble_v distributive_o in_o many_o he_o that_o be_v the_o apostle_n presuppose_v that_o the_o whole_a church_n shall_v come_v to_o one_o place_n in_o divers_a assembly_n and_o all_o prophecy_n in_o a_o tongue_n know_v to_o the_o infidel_n as_o the_o unbeliever_n be_v convince_v and_o judge_v of_o all_o the_o prophet_n may_v fall_v down_o in_o his_o face_n etc._n etc._n answ_n if_o the_o prophet_n be_v meet_v in_o divers_a assembly_n at_o once_o i_o marvel_v how_o the_o unbeliever_n shall_v be_v convince_v and_o judge_v of_o they_o all_o for_o i_o hope_v one_o singular_a and_o individual_a unbeliever_n be_v not_o present_a in_o divers_a assembly_n at_o once_o nor_o convince_v and_o judge_v as_o here_o he_o be_v say_v to_o be_v by_o those_o prophet_n from_o who_o assembly_n he_o be_v absent_a either_o therefore_o the_o prophet_n be_v all_o meet_v in_o one_o assembly_n and_o not_o in_o divers_a or_o else_o it_o be_v yet_o a_o quaere_fw-la how_o he_o can_v be_v convince_v by_o they_o all_o for_o sure_a the_o unbeliever_n can_v not_o be_v present_a in_o sundry_a assembly_n at_o once_o page_n 465._o the_o whole_a church_n be_v not_o the_o whole_a much_o people_n of_o corinth_n that_o believe_v that_o do_v ordinary_o meet_v in_o one_o place_n the_o text_n say_v no_o such_o thing_n and_o that_o be_v to_o be_v prove_v and_o not_o take_v as_o grant_v answ_n suppose_v it_o be_v true_a that_o the_o whole_a church_n be_v not_o the_o whole_a much_o people_n of_o corinth_n that_o believe_v this_o do_v nothing_o prejudice_v our_o cause_n for_o as_o much_o as_o our_o question_n be_v not_o about_o the_o whole_a much_o people_n that_o believe_v but_o about_o the_o whole_a church_n if_o therefore_o it_o be_v grant_v that_o the_o whole_a church_n collective_o do_v come_v together_o in_o one_o place_n we_o have_v what_o we_o desire_v and_o require_v no_o more_o as_o for_o the_o whole_a much_o people_n that_o believe_v whether_o this_o be_v the_o same_o with_o the_o former_a or_o no_o we_o shall_v have_v no_o need_n to_o prove_v or_o take_v for_o grant_v that_o these_o do_v in_o like_a manner_n come_v together_o for_o as_o much_o as_o our_o question_n in_o the_o term_n of_o it_o be_v not_o about_o these_o but_o about_o the_o other_o but_o why_o be_v not_o the_o whole_a church_n the_o whole_a much_o people_n that_o believe_v shall_v we_o say_v the_o whole_a church_n be_v more_o than_o the_o people_n that_o believe_v or_o shall_v we_o say_v it_o be_v not_o so_o much_o i_o conceive_v it_o must_v be_v one_o of_o these_o or_o else_o it_o must_v be_v the_o same_o if_o it_o be_v say_v it_o be_v more_o than_o still_o we_o have_v our_o desire_n if_o not_o more_o than_o we_o demand_v for_o if_o a_o company_n that_o be_v great_a than_o all_o the_o much_o people_n that_o believe_v be_v nevertheless_o not_o so_o great_a but_o they_o may_v and_o do_v assemble_v in_o one_o congregation_n
his_o page_n 482._o allege_v mr._n tompson_n and_o i_o pag._n 16_o 17._o he_o report_v we_o to_o say_v that_o though_o some_o have_v appeal_v as_o luther_n and_o cranmer_n from_o the_o pope_n to_o a_o general_a council_n yet_o not_o from_o a_o congregation_n to_o a_o general_a council_n answ_n as_o he_o one_o of_o these_o page_n have_v nothing_o at_o all_o concern_v this_o matter_n and_o therefore_o may_v well_o have_v be_v spare_v so_o neither_o of_o they_o both_o do_v make_v any_o mention_n of_o luther_n either_o of_o one_o purpose_n or_o other_o and_o therefore_o it_o be_v some_o marvel_n why_o he_o shall_v be_v mention_v as_o thus_o speak_v of_o by_o we_o who_o do_v not_o speak_v of_o he_o at_o all_o so_o much_o as_o one_o word_n for_o any_o purpose_n whatsoever_o nor_o do_v the_o rest_n of_o the_o word_n of_o appeal_n from_o a_o congregation_n to_o a_o general_a council_n agree_v with_o we_o as_o we_o have_v set_v they_o down_o in_o the_o 16._o page_n allege_v and_o therefore_o that_o our_o mind_n and_o meaning_n may_v appear_v let_v i_o relate_v our_o own_o word_n which_o be_v these_o how_o this_o example_n sc_n of_o cramners_n appeal_n to_o council_n relate_v by_o mr._n fox_n do_v suit_n the_o present_a question_n we_o do_v not_o understand_v for_o his_o appeal_n be_v not_o from_o a_o particular_a congregation_n but_o from_o the_o pope_n nor_o be_v it_o from_o a_o synod_n but_o to_o the_o next_o general_a council_n which_o from_o that_o day_n to_o this_o have_v not_o yet_o be_v assemble_v nor_o call_v if_o we_o must_v hold_v a_o necessity_n of_o appeal_n to_o such_o a_o judicatory_a as_o cranmer_n appeal_v unto_o than_o the_o supremacy_n of_o synod_n provincial_a and_o national_a be_v utter_o take_v away_o these_o be_v our_o word_n in_o the_o place_n allege_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n now_o what_o do_v he_o answer_v thereto_o in_o matter_n doctrinal_a say_v he_o some_o as_o luther_n and_o other_o have_v just_o appeal_v from_o congregation_n to_o a_o general_a council_n though_o luther_n and_o cranmer_n do_v it_o not_o answ_n say_v it_o be_v true_a that_o cranmer_n do_v it_o not_o yet_o for_o luther_n how_o can_v it_o be_v that_o he_o shall_v be_v a_o instance_n both_o of_o such_o as_o do_v it_o not_o and_o of_o such_o as_o do_v it_o for_o luther_n and_o other_o have_v just_o do_v it_o and_o yet_o luther_n and_o cranmer_n be_v two_o of_o they_o that_o do_v it_o not_o these_o be_v saying_n which_o seem_v not_o to_o agree_v again_o if_o luther_n do_v so_o appeal_v why_o be_v no_o proof_n allege_v for_o confirmation_n of_o what_o here_o be_v affirm_v which_o if_o there_o have_v be_v we_o may_v have_v consider_v thereof_o but_o since_o there_o be_v not_o we_o may_v be_v allow_v to_o forbear_v assent_n till_o that_o which_o be_v here_o naked_o affirm_v be_v further_o strengthen_v by_o some_o proof_n or_o other_o to_o make_v it_o good_a last_o if_o luther_n or_o other_o have_v just_o appeal_v from_o a_o congregation_n to_o a_o general_a council_n then_o why_o will_v it_o not_o be_v lawful_a for_o other_o upon_o like_a occasion_n to_o do_v the_o like_a and_o if_o so_o then_o as_o we_o argue_v in_o the_o answer_n the_o supremacy_n of_o classical_a provincial_n and_o national_n presbytery_n be_v utter_o take_v away_o and_o so_o by_o this_o mean_n cause_n and_o controversy_n may_v still_o be_v depend_v and_o never_o come_v to_o be_v determine_v so_o long_o as_o this_o world_n shall_v endure_v which_o whether_o it_o be_v agreeable_a to_o the_o wisdom_n of_o christ_n and_o good_a of_o his_o people_n let_v the_o wise_a judge_n though_o very_o i_o profess_v i_o can_v see_v what_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n to_o censure_v scandal_n can_v be_v in_o a_o general_a council_n there_o may_v be_v some_o mere_o doctrinal_a power_n if_o such_o a_o council_n can_v be_v have_v and_o that_o be_v all_o answ_n for_o my_o part_n i_o be_o altogether_o of_o the_o same_o mind_n but_o here_o i_o have_v a_o quere_z or_o two_o to_o propose_v to_o our_o reverend_a brother_n serious_a consideration_n first_o of_o all_o how_o this_o passage_n do_v agree_v with_o that_o which_o himself_o have_v write_v pag._n 387._o where_o he_o say_v it_o may_v be_v make_v good_a that_o a_o power_n dogmatic_a be_v not_o different_a in_o nature_n from_o a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n and_o that_o we_o read_v not_o of_o any_o society_n which_o have_v power_n to_o meet_v to_o make_v law_n and_o decree_n which_o have_v not_o power_n also_o to_o back_v their_o decree_n with_o punishment_n yea_o he_o say_v further_a that_o if_o the_o jewish_a synodry_n may_v meet_v to_o declare_v judicial_o what_o be_v god_n law_n in_o point_n of_o conscience_n and_o what_o not_o far_o more_o may_v they_o punish_v contravener_n of_o the_o law_n for_o anomothetick_a power_n in_o a_o society_n which_o be_v the_o great_a power_n and_o be_v in_o the_o fountain_n must_v presuppose_v in_o the_o society_n 〈◊〉_d lesser_a power_n which_o be_v to_o punish_v anomothetick_a power_n ministerial_a can_v want_v a_o power_n of_o censure_v so_o that_o whereto_o in_o the_o place_n we_o have_v in_o hand_n he_o say_v there_o may_v be_v in_o a_o general_a council_n some_o 〈◊〉_d doctrinal_a power_n without_o any_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n to_o censure_n in_o this_o other_o place_n he_o say_v these_o power_n do_v not_o differ_v in_o nature_n nor_o can_v the_o former_a be_v without_o the_o latter_a but_o do_v always_o presuppose_v the_o same_o as_o that_o which_o be_v lesser_a and_o which_o it_o can_v want_v now_o how_o these_o thing_n do_v agree_v i_o be_o not_o able_a to_o understand_v next_o of_o all_o how_o do_v this_o passage_n we_o have_v in_o hand_n agree_v with_o that_o which_o be_v write_v p._n 308_o 309._o where_o he_o say_v it_o be_v by_o accident_n and_o not_o through_o want_n of_o inate_a and_o intrinsical_v power_n that_o the_o court_n of_o a_o catholic_n council_n can_v not_o in_o a_o ordinary_a and_o constant_a way_n exercise_v the_o power_n which_o christ_n have_v give_v to_o she_o and_o what_o that_o power_n be_v he_o express_v in_o two_o or_o three_o line_n proceed_v viz._n a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n to_o excommunicate_v and_o relax_v from_o excommunication_n even_o national_a church_n if_o the_o lord_n shall_v be_v please_v to_o give_v the_o christian_a church_n a_o general_a council_n this_o day_n may_v lawful_o in_o a_o jurisdictiall_a way_n declare_v the_o faction_n of_o the_o romish_a pretend_v catholic_n to_o be_v mystical_a babylon_n which_o in_o excommunication_n in_o the_o essence_n and_o substance_n of_o the_o act_n and_o again_o this_o of_o our_o saviour_n tell_v the_o church_n be_v necessary_o to_o be_v apply_v to_o all_o church_n and_o court_n of_o christ_n even_o to_o a_o general_a council_n and_o in_o page_n 304._o he_o tell_v in_o that_o a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n though_o he_o call_v it_o extraordinary_a and_o remote_a and_o which_o be_v but_o rare_o to_o be_v put_v forth_o in_o act_n be_v give_v to_o the_o catholic_n visible_a presbytery_n of_o the_o whole_a catholic_n visible_a church_n in_o all_o which_o place_n he_o plain_o affirm_v there_o be_v a_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n to_o censure_v scandal_n in_o a_o general_a council_n which_o in_o the_o place_n we_o have_v in_o hand_n he_o do_v as_o plain_o deny_v three_o if_o there_o be_v no_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n to_o censure_v scandal_n in_o a_o general_a council_n then_o how_o shall_v it_o appear_v that_o there_o be_v such_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o the_o classical_a provincial_n and_o national_n presbytery_n which_o be_v far_o less_o yea_o and_o that_o there_o be_v in_o these_o presbytery_n a_o power_n independent_a and_o supreme_a without_o appeal_n to_o any_o other_o for_o such_o power_n there_o must_v be_v in_o some_o of_o they_o if_o there_o be_v any_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o they_o at_o all_o since_o we_o be_v tell_v there_o be_v no_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n in_o the_o general_a council_n to_o appeal_v unto_o now_o how_o shall_v it_o appear_v that_o any_o such_o independent_a supreme_a power_n of_o jurisdiction_n be_v give_v to_o any_o of_o those_o presbytery_n where_o be_v the_o text_n of_o scripture_n that_o speak_v of_o such_o power_n for_o our_o part_n we_o know_v of_o none_o but_o do_v still_o think_v that_o this_o power_n be_v place_v by_o christ_n in_o a_o single_a congregation_n and_o its_o presbytery_n and_o be_v the_o rather_o strengthen_v in_o this_o apprehension_n for_o that_o the_o reason_n which_o be_v wont_a to_o be_v give_v against_o the_o congregation_n power_n and_o wherein_o our_o brethren_n be_v wont_a to_o place_v their_o great_a strength_n sc_n that_o appeal_n be_v juris_fw-la naturalis_fw-la and_o that_o defect_n in_o the_o part_n be_v to_o be_v supply_v
that_o time_n what_o if_o they_o meet_v for_o the_o admission_n of_o member_n also_o or_o for_o censure_v delinquent_n can_v mr._n rutherford_n prove_v that_o either_o of_o we_o i_o mean_v either_o mr._n tompson_n or_o myself_o or_o indeed_o any_o man_n else_o of_o that_o judgement_n which_o he_o oppose_v have_v deny_v a_o assembly_n meet_v for_o such_o end_n as_o these_o to_o be_v a_o congregation_n i_o suppose_v he_o can_v and_o therefore_o it_o be_v not_o well_o do_v to_o impute_v unto_o we_o such_o a_o sense_n of_o the_o word_n congregation_n as_o we_o never_o speak_v nor_o think_v of_o and_o then_o to_o say_v it_o be_v false_a that_o a_o company_n gather_v into_o one_o place_n be_v a_o congregation_n as_o that_o word_n be_v take_v by_o we_o i_o appeal_v to_o the_o judgement_n of_o our_o reverend_a brethren_n if_o the_o church_n matth._n 18._o assemble_v to_o to_o bind_v and_o loose_v if_o the_o church_n assemble_v 1_o corin._n 5._o to_o deliver_v to_o satan_n and_o sundry_a other_o be_v there_o name_v to_o the_o like_a purpose_n be_v a_o congregationall_a church_n assemble_v for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n answ_n if_o the_o word_n and_o sacrament_n be_v not_o mention_v in_o the_o place_n allege_v but_o other_o action_n and_o duty_n must_v it_o need_v follow_v that_o the_o church_n speak_v of_o in_o these_o place_n do_v assemble_v for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n may_v not_o one_o and_o the_o same_o church_n assemble_v for_o diverse_a end_n and_o action_n yea_o possible_o for_o diverse_a upon_o one_o day_n at_o the_o least_o wise_a it_o can_v be_v deny_v but_o at_o several_a time_n of_o assemble_v a_o church_n may_v attend_v to_o diverse_a duty_n and_o action_n and_o yet_o still_o be_v one_o and_o the_o same_o congregation_n or_o church_n at_o one_o time_n which_o they_o be_v at_o another_o or_o otherwise_o we_o must_v say_v which_o be_v a_o very_a unwise_a saying_n that_o a_o church_n meet_v for_o diverse_a action_n to_o be_v perform_v upon_o one_o day_n as_o the_o word_n prayer_n psalm_n sacrament_n etc._n etc._n be_v not_o the_o same_o church_n be_v one_o of_o these_o action_n that_o it_o be_v in_o another_o but_o be_v one_o church_n when_o they_o be_v at_o prayer_n another_o when_o they_o be_v sing_v psalm_n another_o when_o they_o be_v in_o exercise_n of_o the_o word_n or_o sacrament_n etc._n etc._n or_o if_o they_o meet_v one_o day_n for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n and_o another_o day_n for_o word_n and_o prayer_n without_o sacrament_n that_o nâ—w_o they_o be_v diverse_a church_n and_o not_o the_o same_o upon_o one_o of_o these_o day_n that_o they_o be_v upon_o another_o the_o nature_n and_o kind_n of_o their_o church_n be_v alter_v according_a to_o the_o several_a duty_n wherein_o they_o be_v exercise_v this_o argue_v i_o suppose_v mr._n rutherford_n will_v not_o own_v for_o good_a and_o yet_o for_o aught_o i_o see_v it_o be_v no_o worse_o but_o the_o very_a same_o with_o that_o which_o himself_o do_v here_o use_v who_o because_o the_o church_n mention_v matth._n 18._o 1_o corinth_n 5._o and_o other_o place_n by_o he_o name_v be_v say_v to_o meet_v for_o discipline_n or_o other_o duty_n will_v thereupon_o have_v it_o think_v that_o the_o church_n mention_v in_o those_o place_n be_v not_o a_o church_n that_o do_v ever_o meet_v for_o word_n and_o sacrament_n but_o be_v some_o other_o church_n of_o another_o kind_n which_o argue_v may_v be_v good_a if_o these_o which_o i_o have_v here_o above_o express_v be_v good_a but_o otherwise_o i_o conceive_v it_o can_v stand_v chap._n xxiv_o whether_o those_o child_n of_o israel_n numb_a 8._o 10._o who_o lay_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n be_v elder_n by_o office_n and_o as_o so_o consider_v do_v lay_v on_o their_o hand_n and_o whether_o this_o scripture_n do_v not_o prove_v that_o where_o there_o be_v no_o elder_n to_o be_v have_v there_o some_o principal_a member_n though_o not_o elder_n by_o office_n may_v impose_v hand_n on_o church_n officer_n the_o child_n of_o israel_n which_o be_v not_o the_o church_n officer_n lay_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n numb_a 8._o 10._o therefore_o when_o a_o church_n have_v no_o elder_n the_o people_n may_v confer_v ordination_n and_o it_o be_v not_o to_o be_v tie_v to_o the_o presbyter_n only_o and_o for_o this_o be_v allege_v the_o answer_n pag._n 46._o and_o then_o he_o add_v that_o other_o of_o our_o brethren_n say_v ordination_n be_v but_o accidental_a to_o a_o minister_n call_v and_o may_v be_v want_v if_o the_o people_n shall_v choose_v in_o defect_n of_o elder_n pag._n 491._o answ_n this_o latter_a clause_n shall_v not_o have_v be_v add_v as_o deserve_v a_o confutation_n except_o our_o brother_n will_v confute_v himself_o for_o as_o we_o hear_v afore_o himself_o do_v plain_o affirm_v pag._n 186_o 187._o that_o both_o be_v true_a pastor_n those_o who_o have_v no_o call_n but_o the_o people_n election_n and_o those_o who_o have_v ordination_n by_o pastor_n and_o that_o election_n by_o the_o people_n only_o may_v stand_v for_o ordination_n where_o there_o be_v no_o pastor_n at_o all_o which_o if_o it_o be_v so_o why_o shall_v the_o same_o thing_n in_o effect_n when_o it_o be_v hold_v by_o other_o be_v here_o insert_v in_o a_o objection_n as_o worthy_a to_o be_v speak_v against_o when_o himself_o do_v cast_v the_o very_a same_o it_o be_v marvel_n that_o our_o reverend_a brother_n shall_v thus_o go_v on_o in_o represent_v our_o word_n and_o mind_n amiss_o for_o as_o here_o he_o set_v down_o the_o objection_n under_o our_o name_n some_o of_o our_o word_n be_v change_v and_o alter_v other_o be_v substitute_v in_o their_o place_n some_o be_v whole_o suppress_v as_o if_o there_o have_v be_v none_o such_o and_o other_o be_v add_v as_o 〈◊〉_d which_o never_o come_v from_o we_o of_o the_o first_o sort_n be_v those_o of_o the_o people_n confer_v ordination_n whereas_o our_o word_n be_v not_o so_o but_o that_o the_o people_n may_v impose_v or_o lay_v on_o hand_n now_o between_o these_o two_o himself_o pag._n 492._o do_v make_v a_o great_a difference_n even_o as_o much_o as_o between_o the_o authoritative_a call_n of_o a_o minister_n and_o a_o rite_n annex_v to_o that_o call_n and_o further_o say_v that_o though_o he_o think_v imposition_n of_o handâ—_n not_o so_o essential_a perhaps_o at_o that_o a_o minister_n can_v be_v no_o minister_n without_o it_o yet_o of_o ordination_n he_o think_v otherwise_o and_o if_o he_o make_v so_o great_a a_o difference_n between_o imposition_n of_o handâ—_n and_o ordination_n why_o shall_v our_o word_n be_v forsake_v which_o import_n the_o lesser_a matter_n in_o his_o judgement_n and_o those_o other_o which_o he_o account_v do_v import_n much_o more_o be_v substitute_v in_o the_o room_n be_v this_o to_o burden_v our_o opinion_n or_o apprehension_n with_o a_o great_a odium_fw-la then_o our_o word_n in_o his_o own_o judgement_n will_v bear_v or_o be_v it_o to_o make_v his_o confutation_n of_o we_o more_o easy_a than_o it_o will_v have_v be_v if_o our_o own_o word_n have_v be_v retain_v and_o keep_v what_o ever_o be_v the_o cause_n hereof_o we_o can_v but_o think_v it_o have_v be_v better_a if_o it_o have_v be_v otherwise_o for_o omit_v and_o suppress_v some_o word_n of_o we_o which_o be_v the_o second_o particular_a i_o allege_v those_o of_o the_o time_n and_o place_n where_o elder_n can_v convenient_o be_v borrow_v from_o any_o other_o church_n the_o whole_a passage_n be_v this_o viz._n by_o which_o scripture_n to_o wit_n num._n 8._o 10._o thus_o much_o be_v manifest_a that_o when_o a_o châ—rch_n have_v no_o elder_n but_o the_o first_o elder_n themselves_o be_v to_o be_v ordain_v and_o this_o at_o such_o time_n and_o in_o such_o place_n where_o elder_n can_v convenient_o be_v borrow_v from_o any_o other_o church_n in_o such_o case_n imposition_n of_o hand_n may_v lawful_o be_v perform_v by_o some_o principal_a man_n of_o the_o congregation_n although_o they_o be_v not_o elder_n by_o office_n in_o which_o place_n these_o word_n at_o such_o time_n â—nd_v in_o such_o place_n etc._n etc._n though_o they_o contain_v a_o great_a part_n of_o the_o case_n wherein_o we_o think_v imposition_n of_o hand_n may_v be_v perform_v by_o non-elders_a yet_o they_o be_v whole_o conceal_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n as_o if_o there_o have_v be_v none_o such_o for_o what_o purpose_n himself_o best_o know_v but_o this_o be_v apparent_a that_o by_o his_o concealment_n or_o omission_n the_o way_n be_v make_v more_o easy_a and_o the_o ground_n more_o rational_a for_o that_o passage_n of_o he_o in_o the_o follow_a page_n where_o he_o say_v what_o if_o there_o be_v no_o elder_n in_o a_o single_a congregation_n it_o will_v not_o follow_v therefore_o the_o people_n be_v to_o lay_v on_o hand_n except_o say_v he_o there_o be_v
no_o elder_n in_o the_o land_n or_o national_a church_n to_o lay_v on_o hand_n now_o have_v our_o word_n be_v deliver_v and_o set_v down_o by_o he_o as_o they_o come_v from_o we_o this_o speech_n and_o passage_n of_o he_o will_v have_v be_v useless_a and_o apparent_o bring_v in_o without_o cause_n for_o to_o what_o purpose_n shall_v he_o bring_v in_o this_o exception_n say_v except_o there_o be_v no_o elder_n in_o the_o land_n etc._n etc._n when_o ourselves_o have_v prevent_v he_o in_o this_o by_o put_v such_o a_o exception_n express_o into_o the_o prohibition_n which_o we_o deduce_v and_o gather_v from_o that_o scripture_n of_o numb_a 8._o 10._o sure_o this_o have_v not_o need_v but_o may_v have_v be_v spare_v if_o our_o word_n have_v be_v full_o relate_v but_o by_o this_o omission_n and_o concealment_n his_o own_o speech_n have_v more_o appearance_n of_o ground_n and_o reason_n in_o it_o than_o otherwise_o it_o will_v have_v have_v and_o our_o apprehension_n do_v not_o appear_v to_o his_o reader_n as_o indeed_o it_o be_v nor_o as_o himself_o receive_v it_o from_o we_o in_o that_o our_o answer_n which_o we_o have_v reason_n to_o take_v somewhat_o unkind_o from_o he_o and_o the_o rather_o because_o it_o be_v not_o only_o once_o but_o twice_o at_o the_o least_o that_o we_o have_v thus_o express_v ourselves_o in_o that_o answer_n once_o in_o the_o word_n which_o i_o have_v here_o above_o repeat_v and_o transcribe_v and_o again_o in_o pag._n 49._o where_o speak_v again_o of_o this_o same_o scripture_n numb_a 8._o v._n 10._o we_o say_v thus_o that_o we_o have_v show_v from_o that_o scripture_n that_o if_o there_o be_v no_o elder_n as_o at_o the_o first_o nor_o any_o that_o can_v convenient_o be_v get_v from_o other_o church_n than_o imposition_n of_o hand_n may_v lawful_o be_v perform_v by_o other_o nevertheless_o though_o we_o have_v thus_o express_v ourselves_o once_o and_o a_o second_o time_n yet_o m._n rutherford_n do_v not_o once_o give_v notice_n hereof_o unto_o his_o reader_n for_o aught_o that_o i_o can_v find_v but_o still_o pass_v by_o these_o word_n of_o borrow_v elder_n from_o other_o church_n do_v take_v advantage_n of_o the_o want_n thereof_o which_o indeed_o be_v not_o want_v in_o our_o church_n which_o he_o deal_v against_o but_o twice_o at_o the_o least_o be_v plain_o express_v therein_o and_o will_v not_o have_v be_v want_v in_o this_o passage_n which_o here_o he_o set_v down_o as_o we_o if_o himself_o have_v not_o conceal_v and_o suppress_v the_o same_o now_o to_o leave_v out_o those_o word_n of_o we_o which_o we_o have_v plain_o express_v two_o several_a time_n at_o the_o least_o and_o then_o to_o make_v advantage_n for_o himself_o against_o we_o for_o want_v thereof_o whether_o this_o be_v not_o such_o measure_n as_o we_o have_v cause_n to_o take_v unkind_o let_v himself_o and_o other_o consider_v the_o three_o particular_a of_o add_v word_n which_o never_o come_v from_o we_o i_o will_v brief_o pass_v over_o because_o it_o be_v of_o less_o moment_n as_o not_o so_o much_o misrepresent_v our_o meaning_n yet_o i_o conceive_v those_o word_n it_o by_o ordination_n be_v not_o to_o be_v tie_v to_o the_o presbytery_n alone_o which_o here_o be_v present_v to_o the_o reader_n as_o we_o be_v not_o at_o all_o to_o be_v find_v in_o our_o writing_n but_o i_o will_v not_o insist_v on_o this_o but_o come_v to_o consider_v of_o his_o answer_n there_o be_v not_o say_v he_o a_o place_n in_o all_o the_o word_n of_o god_n where_o people_n conserve_v ordination_n to_o the_o pastor_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n therefore_o our_o brethren_n flee_v to_o the_o old_a testament_n to_o prove_v it_o from_o the_o levite_n who_o receive_v imposition_n of_o band_n from_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n answ_n we_o have_v give_v a_o reason_n why_o no_o such_o scripture_n can_v be_v expect_v in_o the_o new_a testament_n viz._n because_o in_o those_o time_n elder_n be_v not_o want_v for_o there_o be_v the_o apostle_n and_o apostolic_a man_n who_o be_v elder_n in_o all_o church_n and_o say_v we_o we_o do_v willing_o grant_v that_o where_o elder_n be_v not_o want_v imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v to_o be_v perform_v by_o the_o elder_n ans_fw-fr p._n 49._o now_o for_o our_o brethren_n to_o require_v of_o we_o a_o example_n of_o imposition_n of_o hand_n perform_v without_o elder_n in_o the_o apostle_n time_n in_o which_o time_n there_o be_v elder_n to_o be_v have_v this_o we_o think_v to_o be_v unreasonable_a first_o it_o be_v our_o opinion_n that_o when_o elder_n be_v to_o be_v have_v imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v not_o to_o be_v perform_v without_o those_o elder_n but_o by_o they_o moreover_o if_o it_o be_v such_o a_o disparagement_n to_o our_o cause_n that_o the_o scripture_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n afford_v no_o example_n of_o imposition_n of_o hand_n by_o the_o people_n how_o will_v mr._n rutherford_n free_a his_o own_o way_n from_o another_o objection_n which_o we_o think_v as_o sore_o and_o weighty_a against_o the_o same_o as_o this_o which_o they_o think_v of_o so_o much_o weight_n against_o we_o the_o objection_n i_o mean_v be_v this_o that_o there_o be_v not_o any_o place_n in_o all_o the_o scripture_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n where_o ordinary_a pastor_n or_o elder_n impose_v hand_n on_o ordinary_a pastor_n or_o elder_n but_o all_o the_o example_n in_o scripture_n concern_v this_o matter_n be_v such_o where_o either_o the_o person_n impose_v or_o the_o person_n on_o who_o hand_n be_v impose_v or_o both_o be_v officer_n of_o extraordinary_a note_n and_o degree_n such_o as_o now_o be_v not_o extant_a in_o the_o church_n but_o be_v cease_v long_o again_o not_o that_o i_o deny_v but_o a_o argument_n may_v be_v take_v from_o those_o example_n for_o imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o these_o day_n but_o the_o thing_n i_o stand_v upon_o be_v this_o that_o no_o example_n can_v be_v give_v from_o scripture_n direct_o parallel_v to_o the_o way_n which_o our_o brethren_n in_o these_o day_n do_v practice_v and_o allow_v but_o some_o dissonancy_n will_v be_v find_v therein_o from_o their_o way_n as_o well_o and_o perhaps_o as_o much_o as_o from_o the_o way_n of_o imposition_n of_o hand_n perform_v by_o the_o people_n in_o some_o case_n let_v they_o tell_v we_o of_o act._n 6._o v._n 6._o and_o 14._o 23._o and_o 1._o tim._n 5._o 22._o and_o we_o answer_v the_o person_n impose_v hand_n in_o those_o place_n be_v apostle_n and_o evangelist_n such_o as_o our_o brethren_n be_v not_o nor_o do_v so_o account_v themselves_o let_v they_o name_n act._n 13._o 3._o and_o 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o and_o we_o answer_v the_o person_n on_o who_o hand_n be_v there_o lay_v be_v the_o like_a even_a apostle_n and_o evangelist_n whatever_o the_o imposer_n be_v and_o therefore_o neither_o will_n these_o place_n perfect_o suit_v the_o case_n so_o that_o if_o we_o can_v give_v no_o example_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n of_o imposition_n of_o hand_n perform_v in_o some_o case_n by_o the_o people_n we_o think_v mr._n rutherford_n and_o out_o brethren_n of_o his_o way_n may_v be_v favourable_a to_o we_o for_o their_o own_o sake_n yet_o for_o the_o justification_n of_o our_o way_n and_o for_o further_a answer_n to_o this_o passage_n of_o mr._n rutherford_n we_o have_v this_o to_o say_v further_o that_o a_o example_n in_o the_o old_a testament_n of_o a_o practice_n not_o abolish_v in_o the_o new_a as_o ceremonial_a typical_a or_o of_o some_o peculiar_a reason_n special_o concern_v those_o time_n and_o people_n but_o of_o moral_a equity_n and_o reason_n such_o a_o example_n we_o think_v a_o sufficient_a warrant_n unto_o we_o for_o the_o like_a practice_n upon_o the_o like_a occasion_n in_o these_o day_n this_o i_o think_v mr_n rutherford_n must_v acknowledge_v for_o else_o he_o shall_v loose_v many_o argument_n which_o he_o frequent_o use_v in_o this_o treatise_n from_o the_o example_n of_o asa_n hezekiah_n josiah_n and_o other_o in_o the_o old_a testament_n for_o the_o prove_v of_o thing_n to_o be_v practise_v in_o the_o new_a and_o else_o himself_o and_o we_o all_o shall_v loose_v the_o argument_n for_o pedobaptisme_n which_o be_v take_v from_o circumcision_n yea_o and_o which_o be_v more_o if_o it_o be_v not_o thus_o the_o apostle_n argue_v will_v not_o be_v strong_a who_o do_v frequent_o argue_v from_o the_o example_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n to_o confirm_v and_o prove_v truth_n and_o virtue_n and_o to_o reprove_v and_o to_o condemn_v the_o contraâ—y_n in_o the_o new_a to_o instance_n in_o no_o more_o but_o 1_o cor._n 9_o 10._o 2._o heb._n 3._o 24._o which_o example_n together_o with_o that_o say_n rom._n 15._o 4._o whatsoever_o be_v write_v in_o former_a time_n be_v write_v for_o our_o learning_n and_o many_o more_o that_o may_v be_v
as_o we_o see_v that_o in_o some_o case_n one_o may_v be_v a_o pastor_n without_o ordination_n whereupon_o it_o must_v needs_o follow_v either_o that_o one_o may_v be_v a_o pastor_n without_o any_o authoritative_a call_n or_o else_o that_o ordination_n be_v in_o effect_n but_o the_o same_o with_o imposition_n of_o hand_n and_o so_o there_o be_v no_o such_o difference_n between_o they_o as_o be_v pretend_v but_o so_o many_o pastor_n send_v a_o pastor_n to_o a_o congregation_n though_o that_o congregation_n never_o choose_v he_o answ_n take_v your_o own_o word_n for_o answer_n pag._n 496._o we_o never_o read_v that_o in_o the_o apostle_n church_n a_o man_n be_v obtrude_v upon_o the_o people_n against_o their_o will_n and_o therefore_o election_n by_o the_o people_n in_o the_o apostolic_a church_n as_o act._n 1._o 26._o act._n 6._o 2_o 3_o 4._o rev._n 2._o 1_o 2._o act._n 20._o v._n 28._o must_v be_v our_o rule_n any_o election_n without_o the_o people_n consent_n must_v be_v no_o election_n for_o if_o it_o please_v not_o the_o whole_a multitude_n as_o act._n 6._o 5._o it_o be_v not_o a_o choice_n and_o in_o pag._n 465._o he_o tell_v we_o that_o all_o incorporation_n have_v power_n by_o the_o law_n of_o nature_n to_o choose_v their_o own_o ruler_n and_o officer_n and_o that_o christ_n have_v provide_v the_o same_o in_o a_o eminant_a manner_n for_o his_o church_n and_o therefore_o for_o this_o passage_n that_o many_o pastor_n may_v send_v a_o pastor_n to_o be_v pastor_n to_o a_o congregation_n though_o that_o congregation_n never_o choose_v he_o we_o desire_v that_o he_o will_v take_v his_o own_o money_n for_o payment_n chap._n xxv_o whether_o a_o minister_n call_v consist_v in_o election_n or_o in_o imposition_n of_o hand_n and_o whether_o of_o those_o be_v great_a and_o whether_o be_v prior_n or_o posterior_n whether_o 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o act._n 6._o 2_o 3_o 4._o act._n 13._o 1_o 2_o 3._o do_v prove_v that_o the_o minister_n call_v consist_v in_o imposition_n of_o hand_n by_o the_o presbytery_n and_o that_o such_o imposition_n of_o hand_n be_v not_o a_o consumatory_n rite_n or_o benedictory_n sign_n also_o whether_o rom._n 10._o 15._o do_v prove_v that_o a_o man_n can_v be_v a_o minister_n except_o some_o presbytery_n ordain_v he_o afore_o the_o people_n choose_v he_o and_o whether_o otherwise_o the_o people_n do_v send_v a_o minster_n to_o themselves_o and_o whether_o the_o people_n of_o god_n may_v not_o aswell_o discern_v a_o man_n fitness_n to_o be_v ordain_v as_o his_o fitness_n to_o be_v elect_v pag_n 493._o if_o the_o people_n may_v elect_v officer_n then_o in_o some_o case_n they_o may_v ordain_v they_o also_o because_o ordination_n be_v less_o than_o election_n and_o depend_v upon_o it_o as_o a_o necessary_a antecedent_n and_o it_o be_v nothing_o but_o a_o consummation_n of_o election_n or_o the_o admission_n of_o a_o person_n into_o the_o possession_n of_o that_o office_n whereto_o he_o have_v right_o before_o by_o election_n if_o then_o a_o single_a congregation_n may_v elect_v which_o be_v the_o great_a they_o may_v ordain_v which_o be_v the_o less_o and_o for_o this_o he_o allege_v the_o answer_n pag._n 46_o 47._o and_o then_o give_v answer_v thereto_o in_o these_o word_n ordination_n be_v the_o more_o and_o election_n the_o lesser_a for_o ordination_n be_v a_o act_n authoritative_a of_o the_o presbytery_n 1._o tim._n 4._o 14._o answ_n take_v ordination_n as_o we_o take_v it_o for_o imposition_n of_o hand_n on_o a_o church_n officer_n and_o then_o we_o think_v it_o be_v less_o than_o election_n as_o be_v but_o a_o rite_n or_o ceremony_n use_v at_o a_o minister_n entrance_n into_o his_o office_n but_o not_o at_o all_o of_o the_o essence_n thereof_o nor_o be_v we_o alone_o or_o the_o first_o that_o have_v so_o think_v for_o to_o omit_v other_o he_o that_o write_v the_o book_n call_v the_o unbishoping_a of_o timothy_n and_o tytus_fw-la affirm_v pag._n 114._o that_o it_o be_v no_o essential_a but_o a_o ceremonial_a part_n of_o ordination_n which_o may_v be_v sufficient_o make_v without_o it_o and_o say_v that_o angelus_n de_fw-fr clavasio_n peter_n martyr_n and_o other_o both_o papist_n and_o protestant_n affirm_v the_o same_o and_o in_o pag._n 116._o he_o say_v it_o be_v a_o act_n of_o service_n or_o ministry_n not_o of_o authority_n and_o no_o more_o than_o a_o external_a compliment_n or_o ceremony_n allege_v dr._n ames_n &_o other_o for_o the_o same_o tenant_n but_o now_o election_n be_v more_o than_o a_o ceremony_n that_o may_v be_v omit_v mr._n rutherford_n himself_o be_v judge_n for_o in_o his_o pag._n 496._o he_o tell_v we_o that_o in_o the_o apostolic_a church_n a_o minister_n be_v never_o obtrude_v upon_o the_o people_n against_o their_o will_n but_o that_o they_o still_o have_v the_o election_n of_o their_o minister_n and_o this_o he_o say_v must_v be_v our_o rule_n so_o that_o any_o election_n without_o the_o people_n consent_n must_v be_v no_o election_n for_o if_o it_o please_v not_o the_o whole_a multitude_n it_o be_v not_o a_o choice_n and_o in_o p._n 202._o he_o tell_v we_o out_o of_o chrysostome_n that_o all_o election_n of_o pastor_n be_v null_a without_o the_o consent_n of_o the_o people_n whereby_o it_o seem_v that_o election_n be_v something_o essential_a and_o so_o consequent_o more_o than_o imposition_n of_o hand_n which_o be_v but_o a_o rite_n or_o ceremony_n which_o may_v be_v absent_a and_o yet_o a_o man_n have_v all_o the_o essentials_n of_o a_o minister_n notwithstanding_o as_o for_o 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o the_o imposition_n of_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n there_o speak_v of_o i_o conceive_v can_v not_o be_v any_o act_n of_o superior_a authority_n but_o only_o a_o approbatory_a sign_n or_o rite_n which_o may_v be_v use_v by_o inferior_n towards_o your_o superior_n for_o timothy_n be_v a_o evangelist_n how_o can_v any_o ordinary_a presbytery_n have_v authority_n over_o he_o or_o give_v office_n or_o authority_n to_o he_o beside_o it_o be_v not_o say_v that_o timothy_n receive_v his_o gift_n by_o the_o lay_n on_o of_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n but_o by_o the_o prophecy_n and_o by_o the_o lay_n on_o of_o paul_n hand_n and_o with_o the_o lay_n on_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n now_o between_o those_o two_o phrase_n by_o the_o lay_n on_o of_o hand_n and_o with_o the_o same_o there_o be_v great_a difference_n the_o one_o import_v some_o cause_n or_o authority_n or_o power_n the_o other_o import_v no_o more_o but_o a_o approbatory_a rite_n or_o a_o sign_n use_v in_o a_o solemn_a commend_v of_o one_o to_o god_n by_o prayer_n altar_n damascen_n pag._n 161._o of_o which_o more_o be_v to_o be_v see_v in_o the_o plea_n for_o the_o church_n in_o new_a england_n part_n of_o the_o second_o chap._n 12._o quest_n 2_o 4._o for_o aught_o i_o see_v the_o author_n may_v argue_v thus_o the_o people_n may_v ordain_v ergo_fw-la they_o may_v preach_v and_o baptise_v for_o all_o the_o three_o be_v presbyterial_a act_n give_v to_o man_n in_o office_n answ_n we_o read_v in_o mornay_n de_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la chap._n â—_o that_o of_o old_a time_n it_o be_v a_o argument_n rise_v in_o the_o church_n he_o may_v baptise_v he_o may_v administer_v the_o lord_n supper_n ergo_fw-la he_o may_v lay_v on_o hand_n but_o such_o argue_v as_o mr_n rutherford_n use_v they_o may_v lay_v on_o hand_n ergo_fw-la they_o may_v baptise_v this_o we_o remember_v not_o that_o we_o have_v read_v in_o any_o author_n except_o in_o he_o nor_o do_v we_o think_v the_o consequence_n the_o same_o inasmuch_o as_o in_o the_o one_o the_o argument_n proceed_v from_o the_o great_a to_o the_o less_o and_o in_o the_o other_o from_o the_o less_o to_o the_o great_a and_o yet_o affirmative_o in_o both_o thus_o the_o argument_n be_v understand_v by_o the_o forename_a author_n of_o the_o unbishoping_a of_o timothy_n and_o tytus_fw-la who_o in_o pag._n 100_o speak_v of_o these_o word_n of_o mornay_n lay_v down_o the_o argument_n thus_o he_o can_v baptise_v he_o can_v consecrate_v and_o administer_v the_o lord_n supper_n which_o be_v the_o great_a and_o more_o honourable_a action_n ergo_fw-la he_o may_v lay_v on_o hand_n which_o be_v the_o less_o and_o this_o kind_n of_o argue_v for_o my_o part_n i_o think_v to_o be_v good_a but_o for_o that_o of_o mr._n rutherford_n i_o see_v no_o more_o consequence_n therein_o then_o if_o one_o shall_v say_v he_o that_o may_v do_v the_o lesser_a may_v do_v the_o great_a also_o in_o which_o i_o see_v no_o strength_n of_o consequence_n at_o all_o pag._n 493_o 494._o whereas_o some_o say_v act._n 6._o 3_o 4_o 5._o election_n of_o seven_o man_n to_o be_v deacon_n go_v before_o ordination_n or_o imposition_n of_o hand_n v_o 6._o answ_n election_n of_o the_o people_n go_v before_o ordination_n in_o the_o