Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	great_a	know_v	lord_n	3,918	5	3.5901	3	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09739	Ane answer made the fourth day of Septembre a thousand fyue hundreth syxtie [and] one, by maister Theodore de Besza minister of the holie Euangile, in the presence of the quene mother, the king and quene of Nauarre, the princes of the blood royall, and of the priuie counseil, vnto that whiche the cardinall of Lorraine had replied against that whiche was propounded in the first iourney of their talking together, by the said de Besza in the name of the reformed churches. Together with an other short answer made by the said de Besza the 26 day of the said moneth vnto certein articles of replie set forth by the said cardinall	Bèze, Théodore de, 1519-1605.; Baron, John.	1562 (1562)	STC 2000; ESTC S119255	24,857	90

the same Wherein we haue so followed y e worde of God that euery one as we iudge had occasion to be cōtented with oure answer But in stede to approue that whiche was spoken by vs we haue bene demāded by what power we minister y e word of God and the holie Sacramētes and besydes all that there was no thing spared that might make oure cause more odiouse We can not tell for what purpose this was set forward For first of all we came not hither to minister the worde of God nor the Sacramentes Wherefore there was no nede to ask vs by what authoritie we wold do it If it should be said that it is to cause vs rendre a reason of that whiche we haue done heretofore Ye must consider that oure company is of two maner of people the one serue for ministers without this realme ī places where their vocation is receiued of them it may not be demanded why they be ministers There is others that preache within this realme whome ye haue not called to cause them giue an accompt of that w c is past as touching their vocation but onelie to conferre with their doctrine or els it should be a beginning to make proces against them the whiche thīg Madame we are sure that ye haue not mynded If it be after a sorte to conferre vnder correction there should be therein no great purpose and y t could not serue but to cause vs entre into this matter out of the w c we could not depart without offending and angring my Lordes y e Prelates The whiche we haue not mynded nether will we giue occasion vnto any body to interrupt this holy work that is begonne And that it may be knowen y t we speake not without great cause alweys as two parties mete to entre into conference if the one aske the other by what vertue do you this The other will demande the lyke and so it wilbe very hard but of these reciproque demandes there will arise some dissention Therefore now leauing a part my Lordes the Prelates of this realme whome we will not offend let vs imagin vnto vs a busshop that demandeth of vs by what tytle preache ye and minister ye the Sacramente We will demande of him if he him self was chosen by the ancientes or elders of the Churche vnto the whiche he is appointed to be busshop if he was requyred by the people if there was informatiō before that taken of his lyfe and doctrine he wold say yea But the contrarie is well knowen and we remitte oureselues vnto the conscience of them that heare vs w c knowe how this goeth And if he wold say vnto vs ye are not ministers because ye haue not the imposition of handes we might answer him ye are no minister because that in youre institutiō or ordeinīg were omitted the substanciall pointes and that cōmanded by Gods lawe the whiche may not be dispensed with And if y e disputatiō grew more hote we should go further may vse such wordes ye haue but one of the three pointes requisit in the institution or ordeyning whiche is the imposition of handes if the wanting of that as ye esteme doeth depriue vs that we can not be ministers for want of the other two muche lesse ye shall be ministers then we The Councell of Calcidome whiche is one of the 4 generall Coūcelles ordeyned that that the institution of a priest should be voyde whiche haeth not bene deputed spicially vnto y e seruice of sōe Churche irrita sayeth he in iniuriam ordinantis With more strong reason may we say the same to the Busshop y t should dispute with vs when he wāteth y e two substāciall poī●es cōtrary to the ordināce of y e Apostle Yet se an other point whiche greueth vs greatly to speake and yet neuertheles be we constreyned thereunto that we may shew to all this company that if this disputation of the vocatiō were ones opened it should be greatly dangerouse if we should ask him who gaue him this imposition of handes he wold say that it was the Busshops by the authoritie y t was giuen vnto them And if we should ask him for how muche he boght that authoritie he will say that he haeth not boght it but that he haeth giuē so many thousād crounes that is to say I haue not boght the bread but the corne So that if ye were willīg to decide this question by the Councelles or canons of the Churche there shoulde an infinite nombre of Busshoppes and curates haue red faces And therefore Madame we are not willīg to ētre therein for feare to offēd any body nor to make any reuenge but onely to shew you Madame y t if we should briefly answer this is the desire that we haue not to offend any body And as touchīg the article of y e holy Supper of oure Lorde we wold not of late speak any further of it but hauing a respect to many of this cōpany whiche haue not bene accustomed to heare speak thereof any thing so forwardly but y t they wilbe easily offēded when they heare any thing that semeth new vnto them And therefore we had rather that they should heare the sayings of the an●ient doctors of the Churche th● ours considering y t my Lorde Cardinall of Lorrain haeth bound him self by his promes openly to īstruct vs in this article with the wordes of the doctors that wrote the firste fyve hundreth yeres so y t we were prepared to receiue the light if it had bene shewed vnto vs that whiche hitherto haeth bene hidde frome vs. Now to saitisfie vs and also a great part of Christendome in that that we desyred looked for there was propounded to vs the article of the holie Sacrament cut of and mingled i● the principale and moste necessarie pointes therewith it was said vnto vs signe this if not we will go no further And if we were presented prisoners vnto you to be accused yet should ye not say signe this if not I condemne you youre estate bindeth you to speake otherwayes and cōmandeth you to shew vs oure errors if we had any and willeth that ye should be sufficient to exhort in holsome doctrine them that haue nede of doctrine and that be redy to rendre a reasone of their faith by the Scriptures And althogh the manner to condemne vs is new yet the means whiche haue bene therein vsed be more strange as I shall shortly shew Madame we are here present for two prīcipale endes the one is to rēdre a reasone to God and to you to all the worlde of oure faith the other is to do seruice to God and to the King and to you in all possible meanes to appese and mittigate the troobles that be risen in the cause of religion If ye send vs away agaī without giuing vs some with wh●̄e we might charitably conferre there shalbe no

beawtie where there shall be neyther spot nor wrinckle it knoweth God but it is in a parte When I speake thus I beleue y t ye know the Apostles owne wordes For to be brief I confesse that without y e Churche there is no saluatiō because there is no lyfe but in Iesus Christe Iesus Christe imployeth not his liuelie vertue no where els but amongest his membres the vnion and assemblie whereof is called the Churche But the question is to know whether that in this world the Churche may erre and whether it be aboue the Scripture or els altogether subiect vnto the same Hereunto do I answer that it is a thing without all doubte that the particuler membres of the Churche may erre and do erre daylie bothe in doctrine and maners according vnto that whiche S. Paule sayeth that we knowe in a parte and S. Iohn that if we say y t we haue no sinne we deceiue oure selues But if any body will except out of this nombre the ancient doctors he shall perdonne vs if we beleue him not For it were easie for vs to gather many witnesses of fautes y t be foūd in the greatest and moste ancient of them let this be spoken sauing the reuerence due vnto their godlines and learning But we will not stay oure selues so muche here for the honnor that we heare vnto them and y t not without good cause as also because if I haue well vnderstand the sayeng of my Lorde Cardinall that he is no more of that mynde then we to deceiue them without exception This is it that we vnderstand of the membres of the Churche in particularitie the imperfection whereof doeth not stoppe but y t the Churche is formed and made thereof For by litle and litle do they go forwarde aswell in the knowledge of God as in the amendment of life But if the membres of the Churche be generally considered as it is destributed in diuers diocess and prouinces shall we say that it may ●rre Again if I remembre well my Lorde Cardinall was lately of that 〈…〉 specially the particuler Churches prouinciall Councelles may erre and haue often erred and surely that is ratified by so long an experience that no man of iudgemēt as I suppose can doubte thereof There resteth therefore to cōsider the hole Churche in an vniuersalitie but in what sorte For cōsidering it in the estimation of an vniuersall Councell first of all there is no greate apperance to iudge that all the vertue that the holy Goste employeth vpon y e Churche is restreyned to an certen nombre of Prelats the whiche be not alweys y e most learned nor y e best yea althogh they represent the hole multitude that sēdeth them For how often tymes will it come to passe that a simple man shall haue more vnderstanding at an instant then the moste wyse of an hole company And therefore was it said by Gerson y t more credit oght to be giuen to one priuate faithfull man then to an hole Coūcell and to the Pope if he haue better authoritie or reason And namely in y e great Councell of Nece by whome was it stopped that the law of single lyfe whiche afterwarde haeth broght so great filthynes into the Churche was not then established By one Paphnutius onely as sayeth the historie And moreouer whē was there euer assembled a Councell so generall but that a greate parte not onely of the moste wyse and moste holie men but also of the Prelates haue remayned be hinde And who may than assure but that they that were absent some tymes had greater reuelation then they that were present And besydes all this my Lordes how long is it a go that there reigned so horrible a cōfusiō in y e Churche and principally in the great estates dignities of Prelates in such sorte that the greatest desolation of the house of God is in that parte where it oght to be moste entier and best decked At the least it is a long tyme past that the exemples hereof haue appered that y e good Busshops haue sobbed sighed so grieuously therefore so euidently that we heare them at this day And that whiche S. Barnard wryteth of this mater in his book of consideration and in the 33 sermon on the Canticles and also in the sermon of the conuersion of S. Paule is noles notoriouse thē true Allas Lorde sayeth he they whche be sene to loue the first and chief places ī thy Churche and their to haue y e superioritie be first in a redynes to persecute thee They haue take● the Ark of Sion they haue vio●lently possessed the Castell and by power haue set fyre on th● hole Citie Let this be spoken m● Lordes not to iniurie any body bi● to shew that the chief vocations i● the Churche being of so long a tym● so confused and misreuled that it i● impossible to conclude in any wys● that the vniuersall Councelles tha● haue bene now of a long tyme ga●thered together of a multitude so e●● qualified haue bene so guyded by 〈◊〉 holy Spirit that they coulde no● erre An ancient Priest of whome I wolde make no mention in this cōpany if it were not that they alledg● his example in this mater did prophesie well althogh he was no thing worth But we reade none otherwyse but he erred yea both y t he his company in condemning Iesus Christ for it was the holy Goste y t propheseid in this behalf and not he whiche knew not what he said nor what he spoke being moued w t a Spirit very contrarious that is to say a deuilish Spirit because of malice he concluded to sic a Iesus Christe the Sonne of God And further if a generall Councell haeth receiued this priuiledge that they can not erre in y e rewle of their doctrine nor in y e forme of their maners we demand what tyme was this priuiledge dated For there was neuer but one God one Faith and one Churche Now that there was error in the Churche in the tyme of the olde Testamēt the Prophetes openlye beare witnes and y e histories shew good proof thereof All y e wache men sayeth Esay 56 ▪ chaptre be blind they know no thing they are all domme dogges ▪ And Ierem 6 chaptre Frome the Prophet to the priest they work all vntrueth And to the intēt y t this might not be restreyned vnto the life of particuler persons it is said in the 14 chaptre of the same Prophet they prophesie fals thinges and a lieng vision And in Isay the 29 chaptre The wisdome of the wyse shall perishe the vnderstāding of y e prudent shall vanishe away God shall shut vp the eyes of the Prophetes and of y e principalles And in Ezechiell the 7 chaptre The law shall perishe frome the Priest And to say the trueth who condemned y e Prophetes as Ieremias

y e worde And for this cause in so many places is it named food nooriture according to that whiche y e Lorde haeth said y t his shepe will heare his voyce not the voyce of a stranger I adde the Sacramentes for asmuche as the Lorde haeth not willed vs not onely to be taught by oure eares but also by oure eyes and other senses of oure bodyes therefore haeth he willed that the Sacramentes shoulde be sure visible witnesses and sealles of the vnion or knitting together of his children first with him self and then after amongest them selues Ye may see now why it was said in the olde lawe y t the vncyrcumcised shoulde be destroyed from among the people of God And for this cause also it behoued that all the heades of euery familly shoulde compere thre tymes a yere at least in Ierusalem for to witnesse by the same sacrifices their vnitie of faith and religion And afterwardes when the wall betwene the two was broken the Gentiles and the Israelites were broght into one bodye not onely by the preaching but also by Baptisme and by the holy Sacrament of the body blood of oure Lorde according to that whiche Iesus Christe said vnto his Apostles Go and teache all nations baptising them in the Name of the Father the Sonne and of the holy Spirit whereunto we must ioyn that whiche Saint Paule sayeth that he hath giuen touching the Supper y t whiche he had receyued of the Lorde This is also that whiche in an other place he sayeth that the Churche is founded vpon the foundation of the Prophetes Apostles that is to say vpon Iesus Christe whiche is the substance of the doctrine of the Prophetes Apostles Lykewyse must we vnderstād an other place of the same Apostle wherein he sayeth y t the Churche is the prop piller of the veritie that is to say that y e worde of God whiche is the veritie as it is written in S. Iohn susteyneth vpholdeth the Churche or els is placed in the Churche as in a sure hie place forasmuche as ī it God sheweth his puissance vnto saluation to all beleuers as S. Paule declareth vnto the Romains in the first chaptre Beholde therefore the right and visible marckes of the Churche whiche is called for this cause the mother of the faithfull begotten noorished in the same with the true and incorruptible foode Now if there be preaching of y e worde and administration of the Sacramentes it must of force be concluded that there be pastors and doctors vnto whome this charge must be cōmitted according to that whiche the Scripture thereof witnesseth euery where namelie in y t w c is writtē vnto the Corinthiēs to y e Ephesiens Therefore may ye se why y e some putt to y e thirde marcke that is to say y e ordinarie succession from y e tyme of the Apostles wherevnto we answer y t suche a succession is greatly to be praised prouided alwayes that it be well considered applied as some haue often tymes therewith strengthened them selues against the newnes of heretikes as appereth in Tertullian Irenee S. Augustine against the Manicheens and Donatistes But forasmuche as there is a buckler hereof made against vs as if we were inuenters of new thinges or that we pretended thereby to haue help it is more then nedefull that it should be knowen what estimation we haue of this succession we say that there is a succession of doctrine and a succession of persons As touching the succession of doctrin we auowe it as an infallible marcke of the true Churche according to y e whiche we haue already spoken For notwithstanding that the doctrine af the Euangile is more then credible without hauing authoritie of ancientie that it commeth often to passe through oure iniquities and by the iust vengeance of God that it is as new vnto men as that it oght to be vnto them familiare and accustumed yet this notwithstanding the witnes of an ancient and continuall succession serueth much vnto men to make them the more inexcusable And as touching the succession of persones we auowe it also but vnder condition and prouided that it be conioyned with the succession of the doctrine of the Prophetes and Apostles at the least in the pointes of the substance and grounde thereof and none otherwyse And marck if it please you my Lordes that I speake notablie of y e doctrine and not of maners for althogh it be requesit for a good and true pastor to be perfyte in doctrine and in lyuing yet because of ignorance or for some diuersitie of opinions of the doctrine whiche be not of the substance ground thereof also for his manners we will not stik to suffer him being a pastor to be still a pastor prouided alwayes y t he kepe the foundation of the doctrine we be taught thus to speake by the wordes of oure Lord Iesus Christe y t whiche saied forasmuche as y e Scribes and Pharisies were set in Moisis chair y t it behoued to doo as they taught and not that whiche they did The whiche place S. Augustine writing on S. Iohn in his 46 treatise declareth that it oght to be vnderstand of hyrelingis whiche faill not to haue this doctrine not of fals Prophetes of whom Christe haeth contrarywyse spoken Be ye ware of the leuain of the Pharisies Being saith S. Augustine set in y e Chair of Moises they teache the law of God and therefore God teacheth by them But if they wil teache their owne doctrines nether heare ye them nor do ye those thinges that they speake The whiche thing y e same authoure expoundeth yet more at large in his 49 Sermon De verbis domini So therefore my Lordes to retourne again to the point because tha● the fals Prophetes may succede vnto the trow and w●●es vnto the ryght shepherdes behold a 〈◊〉 peremptorie for the w c we esteme a personall succession nor onely to be receiued but altogether to be cōdemned as giuing occassion ●nto falset except that the succession of the doctrine be ioyned thereunto for the foundation Furthermore if this personall succession were simply holden for an infallible marcke of the Churche it behoued then to shew vs some promise of God by w c he haeth 〈◊〉 and bound his grace vnto certen seates or regions y t whiche thing we suppose can not be found in the new Testament But ryght well know we that there is alwayes a Catholicke Churche that is an vniuersall Churche ●orasmuche as the particuler membres thereof be scattered here there throughout the hole worlde according as it pleaseth God to exercise his iudgementes vpon some of them that he haeth ether altogether cut of or els that he haeth chastened for a tyme and his mercies vpon other some of them y t he