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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A55033	Scripture and reason pleaded for defensive armes: or The whole controversie about subjects taking up armes Wherein besides other pamphlets, an answer is punctually directed to Dr. Fernes booke, entituled, Resolving of conscience, &c. The scriptures alleadged are fully satisfied. The rationall discourses are weighed in the ballance of right reason. Matters of fact concerning the present differences, are examined. Published by divers reverend and learned divines. It is this fourteenth day of Aprill, 1643. ordered by the Committee of the House of Commons in Parliament concerning printing, that this booke, entituled Scripture and reason pleaded for defensive armes, be printed by Iohn Bellamy and Ralph Smith. John White.	Palmer, Herbert, 1601-1647.; England and Wales. Parliament. House of Commons.	1643 (1643)	Wing P244; ESTC R206836	105,277	84

though helping them in and having promise of all favour and then at Marlborow and great cruelties to those that were led away Prisoners and this since the Kings Proclamation against plundring and since that Newbury and many other Townes formerly and of late in Bark shiere Oxford shiere Surrey Buckingham shiere will have little cause to believe the Doctors intelligences or assurances that all protestations that come in the Kings name may be trusted And whereas he urges that we may not raise an evill thought against the King Eccl. 10. What shall we say to those men unlesse that of David concerning Sauls Councellours 1 Sam. 24. That at least they deserve to be accursed that force men either to distrust or to suffer ruine because they have power and will to breake that which we would trust the King in most gladly and desiredly if he had no such men about him I have no desire nor will to prosecute particulars further But the Doctor abuses his Readers to cast an oblique aspersion as if the Parliament had any thoughts of contending for a new frame of Religion which deserves no answer so grosse a slander it is And then 2dly to insinuate plainly that the 19. Propositions were urged as so necessary as unles they were granted the Kingdom must be imbroyled in a civill warr and the reliefe of Ireland neglected The fore-named Petition by the Earle of Holland clears that sufficiently and the Petition too that the Earle of Essex should have presented or sent but the King would receive none from him The rest of the Doctors book is but recapitulations Rhetoricall of what he hath said before and an Answer to the instance of Libna's revolt which I will be no justifier of because so little is said of it in Scripture To which I have only these things to adde 1. Though Absalom which he mentioned before and I slipt did falsly calumniate David what ever petty neglect might be in some officers as appears by 2 Sam. 8. 1 Ch. so being a comly person which takes much with the multitude a strange f●atterer of all that came for Justice what ever their cause were 2 Sa. 15. and the heire apparant of the Crown might invegle the people into a Rebellion Yet neither is this any thing like to the causes of complaint or suspitions that we have had and have still nor yet is there any probability that a people justly governed should by Parliamentary Declarations be armed against their King As besides all other Arguments appeares by the small assistance of armed men any Country hath yeelded to the Parliament even where they think them in the right in the cause and themselves too in danger to be plundered 2. If the Parliaments actions in all things about their defence cannot be excused or justified specially by those that see not the whole of their actions and much lesse the reasons of them yet their consciences that see the justnes of the action for the main of defence and grounds to believe their Protestations of their intentions in the defence are not bound to be Neuters much lesse to assist the King against them because they are not or cannot be satisfied in this or that particular For then scarce any warre might lawfully be joyned in 3. In speciall for the sufferance of so many Sects to vent their doctrins with such liberty and to commit unsufferable out-rages upon the worship of God 1 Hath not the Parliament declared against Brownists Anabaptists in the first Remonstrance 2. Have not some Sectaries bin punished as he that made the new Creed was he not imprisoned 3. How many scandalous and innovating Ministers have bin complained of and yet few of them questioned and those not fully censured scarce one by both Houses the Doctor will not lay to their charge the suffering of such which yet he may with more reason as being offendors of longer continuance and more danger 4. The truth is partly the multitude of offendors at first complained of and partly for neare a yeare and an halfe of late their owne extreame danger by the Malignant parties getting strength since the Irish rebellion broke out and so multitude of businesses over-whelming them have hindred that Justice which else those Sects and out-rages the Doctor mentions would have found and may yet in due time if legally proved 5. And if he will say some speciall men favoured them in the very Houses he cannot say more then may be made good of others favouring Superstitions Arminianisme Socianisme and even Popery it selfe Yet this were most unjustly charged upon the Body of either House and much lesse on both And when it shall please God that the Consultation of Divines shall meet for which they have more then once passed the Bill for his Majesty to confirm it will I doubt not appeare to all the world that they never ment to suffer any such opinions or practises as are truly dishonourable to the true Reformed Protestant Religion as even in the mean time the Orthodoxisme and Moderation of the Members of that Assembly generally known to all that know the persons may be a sufficient pledge among them all there being very few that are liable to any pretence of exception for Sects and perhaps none at all for countenancing any such out-rage as the Doctor cryes out upon 6. In fine the worst of the Parliament charged upon them with any shadow in matter of Religion is but omissions or delayes which are but Moats to the beames which the Doctor overlooks in their Adversaries of old and still Who have made stables of Churches but they Who have burned and troden under foot Bibles but their Partisans of Ireland Not to insist on their horrid blasphemies which if Gods word be true as they will one day find it makes our Land groane and mourne under them If a conscience comes to weigh these in the ballance with the Parliament let it if it dare be charitable to the Cavaliers and their Army so as to believe Religion is like to be defended by them when the Parliament intends to ruine it I will say no more to the Doctor but this one thing that a sober conscience that peruses his whole Treatise will wonder what kind of conscience his is that Rhetorizes so for charity on the one side and wholly neglects it on the other telling us more then once that though we lay downe our lives for our Religion it is nothing if we have not the charity he cals While himselfe with all confidence charges the Parliament with many grievous faults against Religion Allegiance Lawes and Liberties and Liberties and discredits all their Protestations and Declarations to the contrary as if he thought that as his great Text Rom. 13. speaks only in his conceit of Monarchs so 1 Cor 13. related also to them only No resisting that higher power but all charity to him what ever he doe or say But as for the Parliament their power is of no regard

SCRIPTURE AND REASON PLEADED FOR DEFENSIVE ARMES OR The whole Controversie about SUBjECTS taking up ARMES WHEREIN Besides other Pamphlets an Answer is punctually directed to Dr. Fernes Booke entituled Resolving of Conscience c. The Scriptures alleadged are fully satisfied The rationall Discourses are weighed in the ballance of right reason Matters of fact concerning the present differences are examined Published by divers Reverend and Learned Divines IT is this fourteenth day of Aprill 1643. ordered by the Committee of the House of COMMONS in Parliament concerning Printing That this Booke entituled Scripture and Reason pleaded for Defensive Armes be Printed by Iohn Bellamy and Ralph Smith JOHN WHITE LONDON Printed for Iohn Bellamy and Ralph Smith at the Signe of the three Golden Lions neare the Royall-Exchange M.DC.XLIII To the READER T Is a bitter Controversie that our poore sinfull Nation is fallen upon wherein not onely Armes are ingaged against Arms but Bookes written against Bookes and Conscience pretended against Conscience In this perplexed condition What shall the people doe What shall they resolve They expect to receive Councell from Divines who though it be a mixt Argument are most likely to settle them And they have great reason to doe it for the truth is The world takes sufficient notice that the Cause as it now stands hath many Divines strongly ingaged unto it on either side and that their Resolutions have had a great Influence upon it and upon the people We know upon whom Doctor Ferne layes the burthen when he saith Many in the simplicity of their hearts have been wrought upon by such as misled them But we pleade in the words of the great Apostle That our rejoycing is this that in simplicity and godly sincerity not with fleshly wisdome but by the grace of God we have had our conversation to the world and more abundantly towards our Congregations To whom wee appeale and to our Sermons preached among them whether wee have taught any thing but humble and holy obedience to all just and lawfull authority sincere love and constant maintenance of the Truth What is it that We may be suspected of What Designes may we be thought to carry on What Interesses What ends What is it that Wee hold deare unto us but the Gospell of our Lord but the soules of our people Did we make a gaine of them Did Titus make a gaine of you Thinke you that wee excuse our selves Wee speake before God in Christ 'T is not a new thing to be challeng'd as Seditious as Tertullus accused Paul To be hurtfull unto Kings a●d Provinces as Rehum and others wrote against the Jewes To be setters forth of new Doctrines as the Epicureans blasphemed that chosen vessell But our witnesse is with God and in our consciences and before the people in our preaching and in our conversation That we are not the troublers of Israel That we pray for the Peace of our King and that we seeke the wellfare of our Nation and that we teach no new no other Doctrine then what the Scriptures confirme as this Treatise will fully shew The● what our King himselfe hath allowed in his clearing our Brethren of Scotland by Proclamation when they had Covenanted and taken up Armes then what our State hath formerly favoured in yeelding ayde to Rochell Then what other Churches Scotland the French Protestants the united Provinces and great Divines have given suff●●ge unto And as for the State of this Kingdome in the very Constitution of it The Case is yet clearer King James himselfe blamed a Bishop for a right-Court-Sermon that hee preached before Him and the House of Peeres That hee had not distinguish'd well betweene a King at large and the King of England And in a manner even all the points of the present difference might be answered against the King by the King Himselfe in His Majesties Answer to the nineteene Propositions pag. 17 18 19 20. Which wee desire the Readers seriously againe to peruse as out of which a politicall Catechisme might be drawne to instruct the people just so as wee have instructed them To conclude After the Kingdome hath duely considered the many provocations it hath had which will appeare by the Remonstrances Declarations and Votes of Parliament The No●successe of other Remedies as namely frequent Petitions and Treaties and hath read this following Discourse with a minde not prejudiced We hope that this present Action of Parliament will stand justified and our Judgement and Consciences cleare Especially after this our Protestation That wee seeke nothing but the Truth and to the Truth if others can convince us we are resolved to yeeld SCRIPTVRE AND REASON PLEADED For Defensive Armes SECT I. The Question rightly stated THe Question which the Doctor hath propounded as necessary to be scanned is thus exprest Whether if any King will not discharge his Trust but is bent or seduced to subvert Religion Lawes and Liberties Subjects may take up Armes and Resist He maintaines the negative and his principall place of strength is Rom. 13.2 Whosoever resists shall receive to themselves damnation This he interprets of resisting the higher power mentioned ver 1. by which he understands the King or Supreame and the resisting a resisting by Armes But it seemes to me however he make a shew of distinct handling his matter that he either carelesly or sophistically confounds things which ought to have been more distinctly exprest by one that truly desired to have resolved consciences in so weighty a cause as forbearing to defend Religion Laws and Liberties when they are all in danger of subversion To which purpose I shall make bold to propound divers considerations towards a better clearing of the true state of the question and the strength of his proofes for it 1. It cannot be imagined that a King who is bent or seduced to subvert Religion Lawes and Liberties meanes to doe this by a meere personall strength For which no Sampson-like strength would suffice but by the assistance of others whether men in office and trusted with the civill Sword under him if he can draw them into his designe or by the souldiery ordinary or extraordinary and that not in one part of the Kingdome but in severall parts as fast as he can get instruments for his turn 2. Here then will come divers questions belonging to the case 1. Whether the resisting by Armes the illegall attempts of an under Officer of Justice suppose a Major or Sheriffe though armed with Commission under the Kings hand or seale be a resisting of the higher power and damnable 2. Whether the resisting a Captaine of the Souldiery comming to act any illegall commands with his bands of armed men though he also have a like Commission from the King be a resisting of the King and so forbidden Both these where the King is not present but in another part of the Kingdome 3. It will be further questioned in case he should grant resistance lawfull thus farr

Estates and in any two of them or all the 3. together is given and is to be used ad Edificationem ad Salutem non ad destructionem for the common good and safety not ruine For in that it is Null and voyd in all reason and equity But the Doctor saith Must the King only trust and not be trusted Must he not alwayes have his security against the other which cannot be but by power of denying RE●L 1. But he forgets that the Question by himselfe stated is when the Prince will not discharge his trust and more then so● is bent or seduced to subvert Religion Lawes and Liberties Then it is sencelesse to trust him till 〈◊〉 shew●s another a better mind and it is most ridiculous to allow him in this case a p●wer of denying safety for that is to allow him a power of subverting all 2. But when the ●u is as now it ●s made in Hypothesi whether the Prince or the two Houses do mean w●ll or ill and who doth or doth not discharge their trust and who doth or doth not intend the subversion of Religion Lawes and Liberties who can be Judge betweene them or who can amongst men decide the difference but the Body of the People Exercising their understanding and consciences to judge who is in the right by all that hath been said and done on both sides formerly and of late and so their power and strength too to defend the right side and resist the wrong-doers And these whether the Doctor or any under Heaven will or no must have and will have the Power of denying or granting meanes for their owne and others safety and securi●y The Doctors reproaches against the Parliament I passe Only where he sayes Conscience might demand for its satisfaction Why should 100. in the House of Commons see more then 300 or 20. in the House of Lords more then 60. that are of a different judgement and withdrawne REPL. Satisfaction may well be given First by saying it is evident the major part of the House of Commons when they were most full were all that way that 100. are now though that be a slander for but a while since there were 300. there The King a yeare agoe in ●anu last commanded all that were in the Countrey to come up which certainly most of them did Yet no Votes but this way they goe now onely things were not then at the ●eighth they now are 2. If yet the Major part were of another judgement they would certainly come and vote and end the businesse The House hath often called the absent and punisht some for it certainly they knew then there were not enough against them of their Members to over-vote them 3. They that are wilfully absent are offenders against the Law and the common good and so are not to be trusted or thought to have wisedome to see things right how many soever they may pretend to be For also 40 being the legall number for the House of Commons to vote any thing It is against all Rules of Politick Bodies that the absence of others there being th● Legall Number present should hinder or discredit any Vote or Act of the Legall Body One judge of Assize two Commissioners or Arbitrators and the like suffice for any Businesse and though still the greater number the more honour and comfort yet a legall number must and will ever suffice 5 As for the Lords who pretend their absence forced by reason of Tumults First this by an Almanack as the Doctor speaks elsewhere may be confuted the greatest part of those that came and after withdrew stayed a considerable time after the Tumults till the King was gotten to Yorke and begun to call them away And if his calling them away or their withdrawing themselves shall have power to make the votes or judgement of a part that are yet resident there as the D● hath learned to call them Null or not to be regarded then have the King or such a number of Lords and Commons even out of the Parliament-House power to disanull a Law even the Law for the not dissolving of this Parliament without an Act for it which must passe all the 3. Estates both Houses and the King and in which each have their power of Denying And this alone what ever might be pretended against other Parliaments makes the legall Votes of the two Houses the full judgement and Authority of the whole representative Body of the Kingdome how few soever be present or how many so ever be absent and upon what pretence soever 2. But withall if I were Confessour or Chaplaine to any of those Lords that have withdrawne themselves and upon pretetence of the Tumult deny to returne I would make bold to aske them this Qu. in their eares for their consciences satisfactoin as well as mine owne which City and Countrey rung of them and which produced such and so many Petitions for the setling of the Militia and helping Ireland and outing the Bishops and Popish Lords out of the House of Peeres whether their refusing to concurre in the reliefe of Ireland and in securing the Kingdome even in petitioning the King for the settling of the Militia which yet the King after acknowledged necessary to be setled were not the true and only cause of those tumults that were And if so where was their judgement to see the means of safety or their conscience to provide for it And then whether their owne guilt did not more send or drive them away then any violence of the Tumults Which tumults yet I approve not nor ever did But if God so punished those that would not discharge the trust it is easier to answer that question why so many remaining should see more that is better then thrice so many if so many dissenting and withdrawne As for the Doctors preferring Monarchy before Aristocracy hee shall not have me for his Adversary who thank God I am borne and live and hope to dye under a Monarchy though not absolute as the Doctors Position would make him when he listed though the Doctor wisely disclaimes any such intention But for his reasons why a King should se●e better then the Major part of both the Houses because he sees even with their eyes though dissenting from them and hath other Councel besides and that he hath many reasons to perswade him to consent to their free and unanimous Votes All this is most unreasonable as the Question is now stated of a Prince bent to subvert Religion Laws and Liberties for we are still upon that generall supposition in this Section for whatever they see he will be sure as farre as he sees his owne strength to consent to nothing that shall hinder his designe And therefore to plead his power of denying or his wisdome in this case is to yeeld him all power to bee a Tyrant Which after all the Dr. will yet prove he hath so farre as he may not be resisted in it by the inconveniences