nor doth it only refute what you spoke of the greatness of that power but that also which you most shun it perspicuously declareth what power they granted to others of answering rightly was not denyed to themselves if they had been pleased to exerce that office or could have done it by reason of greater affaires B As for those Roman Emperours whom the Souldiers did choose indeliberatly without any regard to the common good of all These fall not under this notion of Kings which we have described so that by those that were most wicked were they chosen who for the most part were most wicked or else laid hold upon the Government by violence Now I do not reprehend them for granting power to Lawyers to interpret the Law And albeit that power be very great as I have said before it is notwithstanding more safely concredited to them to whom it cannot be an instrument of Tyranny Moreover it was concredited to many whom mutuall reverence did hold within the bounds of duty that if one decline from equity he might be refuted by another And if they should have all agreed together into fraud the help of the judge was above them who was not obliged to hold for Law what ever was given by Lawyers for an answer And over all was the Emperour who might punish the breach of Lawes They beeing astricted by so many bonds were hemmed in and did fear a more grievous punishment than any reward of fraud they could expect you see I suppose then that the danger to be feared from such kind of men was not so great M. Have you no more to say of a King B. First if you please let us collect together what is already spoken so that the more easily we may understand if any thing be omitted M. I think we should do so B. We seemed to be at accord sufficiently concerning the origine cause of creating Kings making Lawes but of the Lawgiver not so but at last though somewhat unwillingly I seeme to have consented being enforced by the strength of truth M. Certainly you have not only taken from a King the power of commanding Lawes but also of interpreting them even whilst I as an Advocat strongly protested against it Wherein I am afraid if the matter come to publick hearing lest I be accused of prevarication for having so easily suffered a good cause as it seemed at first to be wrung out of my hands B. Be of good courage for if any accuse you of prevarication in this case I promise to be your defence M. Perhaps we will find that shortly B. There seems to be many kinds of affaires which can be comprehended within no Lawes whereof we laid over a part on ordinary judges a part on the Kings councill by the Kings consent M. I do remember we did so indeed And when you was doing that wot you what came into my mind B. How can I unless you tell me M. Me thought you made Kings in a manner like stone seals which for the most part so seeme to lean on the tops of pillars as if they did sustain the whole fabrick whereas in effect they bear no more burden than any other stone B. What good Advocat of Kings do you complain that I lay on them a little burden seeing both day and night they do nothing else than seek out others to bear burden with them or upon whom they may altogether lay the burden so disburden themselves And in the mean time you seeme to take it in ill part that I afford them help labouring under their burden M. I also very willingly admit these auxiliaries but such would I have as may serve but not command such as may shew the way but not Lead in the way or more truly draw or rush them forward as some warlike engine and leave a King no other power but to assent to them Therefore I presently expect that having ended our discourse concerning a King you would step aside to speak of Tyrants or some where else For you have inclosed a King within so narrow bounds that I am afraid lest if we tarry longer therein you drive him out of his greatest wealth highest dignity banish him as it were into some desert Island where being spoiled of all his honour he wax old in poverty misery B. You feared as you pretend the crime of prevarication but I am afraid lest in calumniating you wrong the King whom you endeavour to defend First I would not have him to be idle unless you would appoint idle master builders secondly you deprive him of good Ministers friends whom I have adjoyned unto him not as keepers but would have them called by him to bear a part of his labour these being driven away you surround him with a band of Knaves who make him to be feared by his subjects neither do you think he will be formidable unless we allow him a great power of doing wrong I would have him to be by his subjects beloved not to be guarded by the terrour but goodwill of his subjects which armes alone do make Kings invincible unless you gainsay this I trust I shall shortly prove it For I shall lead him out of these you call straits into light by one Law shall give him so much authority and enlargment that if he desire more he may seeme impudent M. Indeed I long to heare that B. I shall then fall upon that matter that I may satisfy your desire as soon as I can A little before we have confessed that no Law can be so accurately cautioned concerning any affair but that malicious subtilty may invent some fraud This perhaps will be the better understood by the example already proposed By the Law it is ordained that no parents transmit their benefices to their bastards Here in effect the Law seemes clear yet a cheat is found out that the father substitute some other man that he may deliver that same benefice to the bastard of the former possessor Thereafter when as it was carefully ordained by Law that the son should by no means enjoy that benefice which his father had possessed before yet by this caution it was never a white the better For against that Law a paction was found out amongst Priests that each of them should substitute the Son of the other in his office And when that was also forbidden the Law was also eluded by another kind of cheat a pretender was set up against the father who might pretend he had a right to that benefice Whilst the father seemingly is a contending with this supposed Sycophant the Son doth petition the Pope for the benefice if so be that the right unto that benefice belong not to either of the parties contending for it and so the son by his fathers prevarication doth enjoy his fathers benefice and over cometh both the parties who willingly freely yeeld up their plea. Thus you soe how many Kinds of
prescribed otherwise free that they should conforme their actions and speech to the Prescripts of Lawes and by the sanctions thereof divide rewards and punishments the greatest bonds of holding fast together humane society And lastly even as saith that famous Legislator A King should be a speaking Law and the Law a dumb King M. At first you so highly praised Kings that you made their Majesty almost glorious and sacred but now as if you had repented in so doing I do not know within what strait bonds you shut them up and being thrust into the prison I may say of Lawes you do scarce give them leave to speak And as for my part you have disappoynted me of my exspectation very farre For I exspected that according to the most famous Historians you should have restored the thing which is the most glorious both with God and man into its own splendor either of your own accord or at my desire in the series of your discourse which being spoiled of all ornaments you have brought it into subjection and that Authority which through all the world is the chiefest you having hedged-in round about and made it almost so contemptible as not to be desired by any man in his right witts For what man in his right witts would not rather live as a private man with a mean fortune than being still in action about other mens affaires to be in perpetual trouble and neglecting his own affaires to order the whole course of his life according to other mens rules But if that be the tearmes of Government every where proposed I fear there will be a greater scarcity of Kings found than was of Bishops in the first infancy of our Religion Nor do I much wonder if Kings be regarded according to this plate-forme being but men taken from feeding cattel and from the plough who took upon them that glorious dignity B. Consider I pray you in how great an errour you are who does think that Kings were created by People and Nations not for Justice but for pleasure and does think there can be no honour where wealth and pleasures abound not wherein consider how much you diminish their grandour Now that you may the more easily understand it compare any one King of those you have seen apparelled like a Childs puppet brought forth with a great deale of pride and a great many attendants meerly for vain ostentation the representation whereof you miss in that King whom we describe Compare I say some one of those who were famous of old whose memory doth even yet live flourisheth is renowned to all posterity Indeed they were such as I have now been describing Have you never heard what an old woman petitioning Philip King of Macedon to hear her cause answered him he having said to her he had no leisure to which she replyed then cease said she to be King Have you never heard I say that a king victorious in so many batells and Conqueror of so many nations admonished to do his duty by a poor old wife obeyed acknowledged that it was the duty of kings so to do Compare then this Philip not only with the greatest Kings that are now in Europe but also with all that can be remembred of old you shall surely find none of them comparable to those either for prudence fortitude or activity few equal to them for largeness of dominions If I should enumerat Agesilaus Leonidas and the rest of the Lacedemonian Kings O how great Men were they I shal seem to utter but obsolete examples Yet one saying of a Lacedemonian maid I cannot pass over with silence her name was Gorgo the daughter of Cleomedes she seeing a servant pulling off the stockings of an Asian Ghuest and running to her father cryed out father the Ghuest hath no hands from which speech of that maid you may easily judge of the Lacedemonian discipline and domestick custome of their Kings Now those who proceded out of this rustick but couragous way of life did very great things but those who were bred in the Asiatick way lost by their luxury and sloth the great dominions given them by their Ancestors And that I may lay aside the Ancients Such a one was Pelagius not long ago among the people of Galicia who was the first that weakned the Saracen forces in Spain yet him and all his the grave did inclose yet of him the Spanish Kings are not ashamed accounting it their greatest glory to be descended of him But seeing this place doth call for a more large discourse let us returne from whence we have digressed For I desire to shew you with the first what I promised namely that this forme of government hath not been contrived by me but seemes to have been the same to the most famous men in all ages and I shall briefly shew you the spring from whence I have drawn these things The books of M Tullius Cicero which are intituled of Offices are by common consent of all accounted most praise worthy in the second book thereof these words are set down verbatim It seemes as Horodotus saith that of old well bred Kings were created not amongst the Medes only but also amongst our Ancestors for executing of justice for whilst at first the people were oppressed by those that had greatest wealth they betook themselves to some one who was eminent for vertue who whilst he kept off the weakest from injuries establishing equity he hemmed in the highest with the lowest by equall lawes to both And the reason of making lawes was the same as of the Creation of Kings for it is requisite that justice be alwayes equall for otherwise it were not justice If this they did obtain from one good and just man they were therewith well pleased when that did not occurre lawes were made which by one and the same voice might speak to all alike This then indeed is evident that those were usually chosen to governe of whose justice the people had a great opinion Now this was added that these Rulers or Kings might be accounted prudent there was nothing that men thought they could not obtain from such Rulers I think you see from these words what Cicero judgeth to be the reason of requiring both Kings and lawes I might here commend Zenophon a witness requiring the same no less famous in war-like affairs than in the study of Philosophy but that I know you are so well acquaint with his writings as that you have all his sentences marked I pass at present Plato and Aristotle albeit I am not ignorant how much you have them in estimation For I had rather adduce for confirmation men famous in a midle degree of affaires than out of Schools Far less do I think fit to produce a Stoick King such as by Seneca in Thyestes is described Not so much because that idea of a King is not perfect as because that examples of a good Prince may be rather impressed in the mind than at any
Kings whose memory is most recent The nobility did so grievously punish the murther of James the first having left as heir his sonâ— of six years of age that by a new and exquisit kind of punishment they put to death severall persons of very eminent families and peers of the land both for wealth and vassalage eminent On the contrary who did condole the death of James the third a man flagitious and cruell far less revenge it But in the death of James the fourth his Son the suspition of the crime was punished with death neither were our Ancestors piously inclined towards good Kings but also gentle mercifull towards wicked Kings For when one of King Culen's Enemies had killed him in his journey whilst he is coming to give an â—ccount of his administration he was severeâ—y punished by a sentence of the Estates of â—arliament And likewise was punished as 〈◊〉 enemy he who had killed Evenus in prison who had been adjudged to perpetuall bonds And the violent death or parricide of him â—hey punished whose wicked and vicious â—ife oll men had hated M. I do not so much â—nquire at present what some time hath been done as by what right Kings reigne amongst us B. That we may therefore returne thereâ—nto as in our first Kings until Kenneth the â—hird who first setled the Kingdome in his own family it is very clear what was the peoples power in creating their Kings and â—aking order with them even so it is necessary we know that he either did that against the peoples will or by perswasion obtained it M. That cannot be denied B. Moreover If by force he compelled the people to obey him then how soone the people began to have confidence in their own strength they might have cast off that violent yoke of Government imposed upon them Seeing all Lawes received by Kings and people do pronounce and nature it self doth call for it that whatever is done by force and violence may be undone by the like violence M. What if the people being by fraud eircumvented or by fear forced did surrender themselves into that slavery what for excuse can be pretended but that they perpetually continue in that case into which it was once agreed they were to be in B. Iâ— you debate with me from that agreement what excuse there is for undoing the same I shall on the other hand lay down some reasons why pactions and agreements may be dissolved And first of all such as are made through force or fear in all common-wealths concerning these there is a sure Law drawâ— from Natures spring Lawes allow restitution to be fully made to such as are by frauâ— circumvented and think that it should be kept for pupills and such other persons who by just Law they would have to be defended What Assembly therefore of meâ— can require more justly to have restitution than a whole people to whom the wrong is done which indeed is not done against one part of the commonwealth but floweth faâ— abroad into all the members of that politick body M. I know this Law to be made use of in the cases of private persons nor is it unjust But there is no necessity we should debate herein seeing it is far more credible which is recorded by Historians that thaâ— right was by the peoples will granted to Kings B. It is also credible that so great a matter was not obtained without some great cause M. I do easily assent thereto B. What do you think was the chief cause thereof M. What other except that which is recorded wearisomness of ambition tumults murthers intestine wars often with with the utter destruction of the one party and alwayes with very great dammage of â—oth For such as did obtain the government endeavoured to cut-off their brethren and almost all their near kinsmen that they might leave the government the more peaceâ—ble to their children even as we hear is done amongst the Turks and as we see amongst the chief of Clanns in our Islands and in Ireland B. To which of the two do â—ou think was that contention most perniciâ—â—s to the people or to the Princes M. Certainly to the Kings seeing the greatest 〈◊〉 of the people securing themselves doth usually stand spectators of Princes contests and yeeld alwayes as a prey to the victors â— It seemes then that Princes rather for themselves than for the good of the people desired to establish the Kingdom in their own family M. That is very probable B. Now that â—hey might obtain that which did so much concerne the perpetual dignity wealth and safety of their family it is probable that they did dispense or remit to one another somewhat of their right and that they might the more easily obtain the peoples goodwill â—iking and consent they on their part gave â—hem some ease M. I believe that B. You will certainly confess it incredible that â—or so great a benefit bestowed on their Kings â—hey should endure to be in a worse case than formerly they were in M. It is altogether incredible B. Neither would Kings have desired it with so great ambition if they had known it would prove hurtfull to their children and unprofitable to the people M. Not at all B. Imagine then that some one in Parliament of the free people did freely ask the King what if to any King should succeed a Son that is a fool or mad Will you set such over us to rule us who cannot rule or governe themselves M. I think there was no need to make use of that exception seeing by the Lawes it is provided against such a case B. Well said indeed Let us then see if Kings had obtained from the people a free power over the lawes whether that had been unprofitable especially to those who desired to foresee the good of their own family in time coming M. Why shall we think that that power would be unprofitable B. Because nothing doth so much contribute for the continuance of a Government as that temperament of Government seeing it is both honourable for Kings and Moderat and safe for the people The mind of man hath somewhat sublime and generous imbred therein by nature that it will obey none unless he governe profitably Nor is there any thing more prevalent for maintaining humane society than the mutuall exchange of benefits and therefore Theopompus seemes to have wisely answered his wife â—pbraiding him that by adding the Epbory he â—ad diminished the power of his authority â—nd had left the Kingdome to his Sons less â—han he had gotten it It is saith he so much the more firme and sure M. What you relate of continuance I perceive is most true For I think the Kingdomes of the Scots and Danes are the most ancient of all that are in Europe nor do they seeme by any other means to have attained that antiquity than by the moderation of the supreame authority whilst in the mean time the Kingdomes of the Frenches Englishes
and Spaniards have past so often out of one family into another But I do not know if our Kings have been so wise as Theopompus B. As they have not been so prudent do you imagine that the people were so foolish as to neglect an occasion so opportune put into their hand or that they were so struck with fear or seduced by flatteries as to give themselves over into slavery willingly M. Perhaps it was not But if the people which indeed might be were so blind that they did not see what might concerne their own good or being careless would not see what might be for their benefit so as to contemne it should they not then be justly punished for their folly B. It is not probable that any such thing was done seeing we may see the contrary to be observed even to our dayes For besides that wicked Kings as often as they intended tyranny over their Subjects were alwayes restrained some vestiges 〈◊〉 the ancient customes do yet continue in somâ— ancient familes For the Old Scots even 〈◊〉 our very dayes do choose their heads of clans and having chosen them do give them council of Elders to which councill who soever gives not obedience is deprived 〈◊〉 all honour and dignity What therefore 〈◊〉 with very great care observed in the parts would they be negligent of for the security and safety of all And would they willinglâ— redact themselves into bondage to him whâ—â— was to possess a lawfull Kingdome in steaâ— of some benefit and would they freely givâ— over their liberty acquired by vertue defendâ—ed by armes not interrupted for so many ages to one not expecting it without forceâ— without war For the calamity of John Balâ—oâ— doth shew that that power was never granted to our Kings besides the punishments so often taken for their Maladministration Who about two hundred and sixty years ago was by the nobility rejected because he had subjected himself and his Kingdome to the authority of Edward King of England and Robert the first was substitute in his stead The same doth also shew that perpetual custome continued from the beginning of our Government M. What custome do you speak of B. When our Kings are publickly inaugurat they solemnely promise to all the People that they will observe the Lawes rites and old statutes of their predecessors use the â—ame power which they have received from them that whole order of ceremonies doth shew the first entry of our Kings into every City from all which it may be easily understood what kind of power they did receive from our predecessors to wit none other than that they swear to maintain the Lawes being chosen by suffrages This condition of reigning did God propose to David and his posterity and promiseth they should reigne so long as they should obey the Lawes he had given them those things indeed they do as is probable that our Kings received from our Ancestors a power not immense but within certain limites bounded and limited And further there was the confirmation of a long time and the usurpation of a perpetual right by the people never reprehended by a publick decree M. But I fear it cannot be easily obtained of Kings as being perswaded by that probability to condescend to these Lawes however sworn unto or usurped by the people B. I also believe it is no less hard to perswade the people to pass from the right received from their Ancestors approved by the use of so many ages and practised by one continuall tenour I do not think it needfull to proceed by conjectures what the people is to do since I see what they have done already But if by the obstinat pertinacy of both the business come to armes he that prevaileth will give what Law and right he pleaseth to the vanquished but this will not longer continue than he who is vanquished having again gathered together his forces shall take up Armes again In all which contentions men usually still fight with very great damage of the People but with the utter overthrow of Kings For from this spring do flow all the destructions of all Kingdoms M. It must needs be so B. I have perhaps gone back further than was needfull to the end you might clearly understand what kind of Government there was amongst us of old For if I had reasoned with you according to the rigour of the Law I might have gained my poynt in a far more compendious way M. Albeit you have almost satisfied me already yet I shall willingly hear what that is B. I would then have you first of all to answer me this question Do you not approve the definition of Law set down by Lawyers who say that Law is that which the People knew when demanded by him to whom the prerogative of demanding belongeth M. Indeed I do approve it B. We have agreed that the faults of Lawes being found out they may be amended or abrogat by the Law givers M. We did so B. I suppose you perceive now that such as are borne Kings are by the Lawes and Suffrages of the People created no less than those whom we said were elected â—n the beginning And that in receiving of Lawes there will not be remedies wanting in â—he People who are the Lawgivers not onâ—y against force and fraud but also against neâ—ligence M. I perceive that clearly â— Only here is the difference that the Law â—oncerning our Kings was made severall ages â—efore and when any doth enter into the â—ingdome there useth to be no new Law â—ade but the old Law is approven and â—â—tified But amongst those who have their â—eeting of Estates at the election of every â—ing the Law useth to be made the King â—reated and approved and so to enter into â—s Government M. It is so B. Now if â—ou please let us briefly recapitulat what we â—re at accord in from the very beginning â—o that if ought be rashly approven it may â—e retracted M. I am content B. First â—f all then it seemes that a King is created 〈◊〉 the peoples sake and that nothing more â—xcellent is given us of God than a good King â—nd more pestilentious than a wicked King â— Very right B We have also said that wicked King is called a Tyrant M· We â—â—ve said so B. And because there is not â—â—ch plenty of good men so as to choose those â—ho may prove good Kings nor so great a â—â—ppiness of birth as that good Luck may â—â—fer us those that are good if we have not â—â—ch as we would wish yet we have such as â—ther consent hath approved or chance hath â—â—fered Now the hazard that occureth either in choosing new Kings or in approâ—ving such as are given us by birth was thâ— cause that we desired Lawes which mighâ— modify the Government of Kings Noâ— these Lawes should be nothing else but thâ— express image as far as may be of a gooâ— Prince M. We are at accord in that alsâ— B
with Catiline for overturning the commonwealth of Rome was compelled to renounce his Praetorship and the Decemviri the makers of the Roman Lawes were taken order with even whilst they enjoyed thâ— supream authority Some Dukes of Venice and Chilpericus King of france laying aside their Royall honours as private men spenâ— their dayes in Monasteries And not long ago Christiernus King of the Danes twenty years almost after he was deprived of his Kingdome did end his life in prison Now the Dictatorship which was a Kind of Tyranny was in the peoples power And this priviledge hath been constantly observed that publick benefices granted amiss and the liberty granted to ingrate persons set at liberty whom Lawes do very much favour might be taken back again These things we have spoken of forrain Nations lest we alone seeme to have usurped any new priviledge against our Kings But as to what doth properly belong to us the matter might have been handled in few words M What way For this I am very desirous to heare B I might enumerat twelve or more Kings who for great crimes and flagitious deeds have been either adjudged to perpetuall imprisonment or escaped the just punishment of their wickedness either by exile or voluntary death But lest any blame me for relating old and obsolete stories if I should make mention of Culen Even and Ferchard I shall produce some few within the memory of our forefathers All the Estates in a publick convention judged James the third to have been justly killed for his great cruelty and flagitious wickedness towards his Subjects and did caution that none of them who had aided consented or contributed money or had been active therein to be called thereafter into question therefore That they therefore did judge the deed to be duely and orderly done it being once down doubtless they desired it might be set down for an example in timâ— coming surely no less than L Quintiuâ— sitting in judgment did Commend Serviliuâ— Ahalus for having killed before the bench Spâ— Mellus turning his back and refusing to comâ—pear into judgment and that he was not guilty of blood shed but thought him to be nobiâ—litat by the slaughter of a Tyrant and alâ— posterity did affirme the same What Subjecâ— hath ever approved the slaughter of one affecâ—ting Tyranny what do you suppose would he have done with a Tyrant robbing the good of his Subjects and shedding their blood What hath our men done do not they seemâ— to have made a Law who by a publick decreâ— without any punishment have past by a flagitiâ—ous crime committed if such like shall happeâ— in time coming for at most there is no diffeâ—rence whether you judge concerning thaâ— which is done or make a Law concerning what is to be done For both wayes a judgâ—ment is past concerning the Kind of the crime and concerning the punishment or reward oâ— the actor M. These things will perhaps havâ— some weight amongst us But I know not how other Nations abroad will take them You seâ— I must satisfy them Not as in a judiciall way I were to be called in question for the crime but openly amongst all concerning the fame not mine for I am far from any suspition thereof but of my countrey men For I am afraid lest forrain Nations will rather blamâ— the decrees wherewith you suppose you are sufficiently protected than the crime it self full of cruelty and hatred But you know if I mistake not what is usually spoken according to the disposition and opinion of every one on both hands concerning the examples you have proposed I would therefore because you seeme to have expeded what is past not so much from the decrees of men as from the springs of Nature you would briefly expound if you have ought to â—ay for the equity of that Law B. Albeit that may seeme unjust to stand at the bar to plead amongst forrainers for a Law approved from the very first times of our Scots Government by Kings by the constant practice of so many ages ago necessary for the people not unjust for Kings but Lawfull but now at last accused of illegality yet for your sake I shall try it And as if I were debating with those very men who would trouble you I first ask this What do you think here worthy of reprehension Is it the cause why is it sought for or is it the Law it self which you reprehended for the Law was sought for repressing the unjust lusts of Kings Whoever doth condemne this must likewise condemne all the Lawes of all Nations for all Lawes were desired for the very same cause Do you reprehend the Law it self do you think it Lawfull that Kings be exempted of or not lyable to the Lawes let us then see if that be also expedient And for proving that it is not expedient for the people there needs not many words For it in the former discourse we have rightly compared a King to a Physician as it is not expedient for people that impunity be permitted to a Physician for killing whom he pleaseth so it is not for the good of all that a promiscuous licence be granted to Kings for making havock of all We have no cause then to be offended with a people whose chief power it is in making Lawes if as they desire a good King to be set over them even so a Law to be set over a King none of the best But if this Law be not for the Kings use or profit let us see if the people should be dealt with to remit somewhat of their priviledge and of abrogating it not for the space of three dayes but according to our usuall way we indict a Parliament to meet within fourty dayes In the mean time that we may reason together concerning the Law tell me doth he seeme to respect the good of a mad man who looseth his bonds M. Not at all B. What do you think of him who giveth to a man sick of a feaver so as he is not far from madness a drink of cold water though earnestly craving it do you think he deserveth well of that sick man M. But I speak of Kings of a sound mind I deny that there is any need of medicine for such as are in health nor of Lawes for Kings of a sound mind But you would have all Kings to seeme wicked for you impose Lawes upon all B. I do not think that all Kings are wicked Nor do I think all the people to be wicked and yet the Law in one voice doth speak to the whole people Now wicked men are afraid at that voice good people do not think it belongs to them Thus good Kings have no cause to be offended at this Law and wicked Kings if they were wise would render thanks to the Law giver who hath ordained what he understood would not be proâ—â—table for them nor to be Lawfull for them to do Which indeed they will not do if so be they shall
not ignorant what may be pretended on the contrary and so much the rather because some of the Actors are of my intimate acquaintance B. Now I almost perceive that it doth perhaps not trouble you so much as those of forrain Nations who would be judges of the vertues of others to whom you think satisfaction must be given Of these I shall set down three sorts especially who will vehemently enveigh against that deed The first kind is most pernicious wherein those are who have mancipated themselves to the lusts of Tyrants and think every thing just and lawfull for them to do wherein they may gratify Kings and measure every thing not as it is in it self but by the lust of their Masters Such have so devoted themselves to the lusts of others that they have left to themselves no liberty either to speak oâ— do Out of this Crew have proceeded those who have most cruelly murthered that innocent Youth without any cause of enmity but through hope of gain honour and power at Court to satisfy the lust of others Now whilst such feign to be sorry for the Queens case they are not grieved for her misfortunes but look for their own security and take very ill to have the reward of their most hainous crime which by hope they swallowed down to be pulled out of their throat I judge therefore that this kind of men should not be satisfied so much by reasoning as chastised by the severity of Lawes and force of Armes Others again are all for themselves these men though otherwise not malicious are not grieved for the publick calamity as they would seeme to be but for their own domestick damages and therefore they seeme to stand in need rather of some comfort than of the remedies of perswasive reasoning and Lawes The rest is the rude multitude which doth admire at all novelties reprehend many things and think nothing is right but what they themselvs do or see done For how much any thing done doth decline from an ancient custome so farr they think it is fallen from justice and equity And because these be not led by malice and envy nor yet by self-interest the most part will admitt information and to be weaned from their errour so that being convinced by the strength of reason they yeeld Which in the matter of Religion we find by experience very often in these dayes and have also found it in preceeding ages There is almost no man so wilde that can not be tamed if he will but patiently hearken to instruction M. Surely we have found oftentimes that very true B. When you therefore deale with this kind of People so clamorous and very importunat ask some of them what they think concerning the punishment of Caligula Nero or Domitian I think there will be none of them so addicted to the name King that will not confess they were justly punished M. Perhaps you say right but these very same men will forthwith cry-out that they complain not of the punishment of Tyrants but are grieved at the sad calamities of lawfull Kings B. Do you not then perceive how easily the People may be pacified M. Not indeed unless you say some other thing B. But I shall cause you understand it in few words the People you say approve the murther of Tyrants but compassionat the misfortune of Kings would they not then change their opinion if they clearly understood what the difference is betwixt a Tyrant and a King Do you not think that this might come to pass as in many other cases M. If all would confess that Tyrants are justly killed we might have a large entry made open to us for the rest but I find some men and these not of small authority who while they make Kings liable to the penalties of the Lawes yet they will maintain Tyrants to be sacred persons but certainly by a preposterous judgment if I be not mistaken yet they are ready to maintain their Government albeit immoderat and intolerable as if they were to fight for things both Sacred Civil B. I have also met with several Persons oftentimes who maintain the same very pertinaciously but whether that opinion be right or not we shall further discuss it hereafter at better conveniency In the mean time if you please let us conclude upon this upon condition that unless hereafter it be not sufficiently confirmed unto you you may have liberty to retract the same M. On these termes indeed I will not refuse it B. Let us then conclude these two to be contraries a King and a Tyrant M. Be it so B. He therefore that shall explain the Original and cause of Creating Kings and what the duties of Kings are towards their people and of people towards their Kings will he not seeme to have almost explained on the other hand what doth pertain to the nature of a Tyrant M. I think so B. The representation then of both being laid out do you not think that the people will understand also what their duty is towards both M. It is very like they will B. Now Contrary wise in things that are very unlike to one another which yet are contained under the same genus there may be some similitudes which may easily induce imprudent persons into an errour M. Doubtless there may be such and especially in the same kind where that which is the worst of the two doth easily personat the best of both and studies nothing more than to impose the same upon such as are ignorant Buc. Have you not some representation of a King and of a Tyrant impressed in your mind For if you have it you will save me much pains M. Indeed I could easily express what Idea I have of both in my mind but I fear it may be rude and without forme therefore I rather desire to hear what your opinion is lest whilst you are a refuting me our discourse become more prolixe you being both in age and experience above me and are well acquaint not only with the opinions of others but also have seen the customes of many and their Cities B. I shall then do it and that very willingly yet will I not unfold my own opinion so much as that of the Ancients that thereby a greater authority may be given to my discourse as not being such as is made up with respect to this time but taken out of the opinions of those who not being concerned in the present controversy have no less eloquently than briefly given their judgment without hatred favour or envy whose case was far from these things and their opinions I shall especially make use of who have not frivolously trifled away their time but by vertue and counsel have flourished both at home and abroad in well governed Common wealths But before I produce these witnesses I would ask you some few things that seeing we are at accord in some things of no smal importance there may be no necessity to digress from the
so that he may bend it to all actions for his own benefit or advantage as the Lesbian rule Ap. Claudius in his Decemviratus made a very just law that in a liberall cause or Plea sureties should be granted for liberty What more clearly could have been spoken But by interpreting the same Author made his own Law useless You see I suppose how much liberty you give a Prince by one cast namely that what he pleaseth the Law doth say what pleaseth him not it doth not say If we shall once admit this it will be to no purpose to make good Lawes for teaching a good prince his duty and hemme in an ill King Yea let me tell you more plainly it would be better to have no Lawes at all than that freedom to steal should be tolerat and also honoured under pretext of Law M. Do you think that any King will be so impudent that he will not at all have any regard of the fame and opinion that all men have of him Or that he will be so forgetfull of his Subjects that he will degenerat into their Pravity whom he hath restrained by ignominy imprisonment confiscation of goods in a word with very grievous punishments B. Let us not believe that these things will be if they had not been done not long ago that to the exceeding great hurt of the whole world M. Where do you tell these things were done B Do you ask where As if all the Nations in Europe did not only see but feele also how much mischief hath the immoderat power and unbridled Tyranny of the pope of Rome brought upon humane affaires Even that power which from small beginning seemingly honest he had got every man doth know that no less can be feared by unwary persons At first Lawes were proposed to us not only drawn out of the innermost secrets of nature but given by God himself explaind by the Prophets from the holy Spirit at last by the Son of God by the same God confirmed committed to the writings of those praise worthy men expressed in their life sealed with their blood Neither is there in the whole Law any other place more carefully commendably or more clearly delivered than that of the Office of Bishops Now seeing it is Lawfull to no man to add any thing to these Lawes to abrogat or derogat ought therefrom or to change any thing therein there did remain but one interpretation whilst the Pope did arrogat it he not only did oppress the rest of the Churches but claimed a Tyrranny the most cruell of all that ever were daring to command not only men but Angels also plainly reducing Christ into order if this be not to reduce him into order that what thou wilt have done in heaven in earth amongst the damned in hell be ratified what Christ hath commanded let it be ratified if thou wilt for if the Law seeme to make but little for your behoofe interpreting it thus you may back-bend it so that not only by your mouth but also according to the judgment of your mind Christ is constrained to speak Christ therefore speaking by the mouth of the Pope Pipin is set in Childericks place of government Ferdinandus of Arragon substitute to John King of Navarre the Son arose in armes against his father and subjects against their King Christ is full of poison then he is forced by witches so that he killeth Henry of Luxemburg by poison M. I have heard these things often before but I desire to hear more plainly somewhat of that interpretation of lawes B. I shall offer you one example from which you may easily understand how much this whole kind is able to do The Law is A Bishop must be the husband of one wife than which Law what is more clear what may be said more plain One wife saith the Law one Church saith the Pope such is his interpretation As if that Law were made not to repress the Lust of Bishops but their avarice Now this explanation albeit it saith nothing to the purpose yet doth contain a judgment honest and pious if he had not vitiated that Law again by another interpretation What doth therefore the Pope devise for excuse It varieth saith he in regard of persons cases places times Some are of that eminent disposition that no number of Churches can satisfy their pride Some Churches again are so poor that they cannot maintain him who was lately a begging Monk if he now have a mitre if he would maintain the name of a Bishop There is a reason invented from that crafty interpretation of the Law that they may be called Bishops of one Church or other Churches given them in Commendam and all may be robbed Time would faile me if I should reckon up the cheats which are daily excogitat against one Law But albeit these things be most unbeseeming as well the name of a Pope as of a Christian yet their tyranny rests not here For such is the nature of all things that when they once begin to fall they never stay untill they fall headlongs into destruction Will you have me to shew you this by a famous example Do you not remember upon any of the Roman Emperours blood who was more cruell and wicked than C. Caligula M. There was none that I know of B. Now what was his most nefarious villany think you I do not speak of those deeds which Popes do reckon up in some reserved cases but in the rest of his life M. I do not at present remember B. What do you think of that that having called upon his horse he invited him to sup with him Set a golden grain of barley before him and made him Consul M. Indeed it was most impiously done B. What think you of that how he made the same horse his colleague in the Priesthood M. Do you tell me that in good earnest B. Indeed in good earnest nor do I admire that these things seeme to you feigned But that Roman Jupiter of ours hath done such things that those things done by Caligula may seem true to Posterity I say Pope Julius the third who seemes contended with C. Caligula a most wicked wretch for preheminence of impiety M. What did he of that kind B. He made his Ape-keeper a man almost more vile than the vilest beast his Colleague in the Papary M. Perhaps there was another cause of choosing him B. Some are reported indeed but I have picked out the most honest Seeing then so great a contempt not only of the Priesthood but also a forgetfulness of humanity arise from this freedome of interpreting Lawes beware you think that to be a small Power M. But the Ancients seeme not to have thought it so great a business of interpreting as you would have it seeme to be Which by this one argument may be understood because the Roman Emperours granted it to Lawyers which one reason doth overturne your whole tedious dispute