of Rome And in the Doctrine of Aristotle they made use of many Points As First the Doctrine of separated Essenses B. What are separated Essenses A. Separated Beings B. Separated from what A. From every thing that is B. I cannot understand the Being of any thing which I understand not to Be But what can they make of that A. Very much in Questions concerning the Nature of God and concerning the Estate of Mans Soul after Death in Heaven Hell and Purgatory by which you and every Man knows how great Obedience and how much Mony they gain from the Common People whereas Aristotle holdeth the Soul of Man to be the first giver of Motion to the Body and consequently to it self they make use of that in the Doctrine of Free Will what and how they gain by that I will not say He holdeth forth that there be many things that come to pass in this World from no necessity of Causes but meer Contingency Causalty and Fortune B. Me thinks in this they make God stand Idle and to be a meer Spectator in the Games of Fortune for what God is the cause of must needs come to pass And in my Opinion nothing else but because there must be some Ground for Justice of the Eternal Torment of the Damned perhaps it is this That mens Wills and Propensions are not they think in the hands of God but of themselves And in this also I see something conducing to the Authority of the Church A. This is not much nor was Aristotle of such Credit with them but that when his Opinion was against theirs they could slight him whatsoever he says is impossible in Nature they can prove well enough to be possible from the Almighty Power of God who can make Bodies to be in one and the self same Place and one â—ody to be in many Places at the same time if the Doctrine of Transubstantiation require it though Aristotle deny it I like not the Design of drawing Religion into an Arts whereas it ought to be a Law And though not the same in all Countries yet in every Country indisputable nor that they teach it not as Arts ought to be taught by shewing first the meaning of their Terms and then deriving from them the truth they would have us believe Nor that their Terms are for the most part untâ—lligible though to make it seem rather want of Learning in the Reader than want of fair dealing in themselves they are for the most part Latin and Greek words â—ryed a little the point towards the Native Languages of the several Countries where they are used But that which is most intollerable is That all Clerks are forced to make as if they believe them If they mean to have any Church Preferment the Keys whereof are in the Popes Hands and the Common People whatsoever they believe of those subtile Doctrines are never esteemed better Sons of the Church for their Learning There is but one way there to Salvation that is Extraordinary Devotion and Liberality to the Church and readiness for the Churches sake of it be required to fight against their Natural and Lawfull Sovereigns B. I see what use they make of Aristotles Logick Physick and Metaphysickâ— But 〈…〉 not yet how his Politicks can serve their turn A. Nor I It has I think done them no Good though it â—as done us here much hurt by Accident for mâ—n grown weary at last of thâ— Insolence of the Priests and examining the 〈…〉 Doctrines that were put upon them began to search the sense of the Scriptures as they are in the Learned Languages and consequently Studying Greek and Latin became acquainted with the Democratical Principles of Aristotle and Cicero and from the Love of their Eloquence fell in â—ove with their Politicks and that more and more till it grew into the Rebellion we now talk of without any other advantage to the Roman Church but that it was awakening to us whom since we broke out of their Net in the time of Henry 8. they have continually endeavoured to recover B. What have they gotten by teaching of Aristotles Ethicks A. It is some advantage to them that neither the Morals of Aristotle nor of any other have done them any 〈◊〉 nor us any good Their Doctrine have caused a great deal of Dispute concerning Vertue and Vice but no knowledge of what they are nor any method of attaining Vertue nor of avoiding Vice The end of Moral Philosophy is to teach men of all sorts their Duty both to the Publick and to one another They Estemate Virtue partly by a Mediocrity of the Passions of Men and partly by that that they are praised whereas it is not the much or little praise that makes an Action Verâ—â—ous but the Cause nor much or little Blame that makes an Action Vitious but its being unconformable to the Laws in such men as are subject to the Law or its being uncoâ—â—ormable to Equity or Charity in all men whatsoever B. It seems you make a difference between the Ethicks of Subjects and the Ethicks of Sovereigns A. So I do The Vertue of a Subject is comprehended wholly in obedience to the Laws of the Commonwealth To obey the Laws is Justice and Equity which is the Law of Nature and consequently is Civil Law in all Nations of the World and nothing is Injustice or Iniquity otherwise then it is against the Law likewise to obey the Law is the Prudence of a Subject for without such obedience the Commonwealth which is every Subjects Safety and Protection cannot subsist And though it be Prudence also in private men justly and moderately to enrich themselves yet craftily to withhold from the Publick or defraud it of such part of the Wealth as is by Law required is no sign of Prudence but of want of knowledge of what is necessary for their own defence The Vertues of Soveraigns are such as tend to the maintenance of Peace at Home and to the Resistance of Forreign Enemies Fortitude is a Royal Vertue and though it be necessary in such private men as shall be Soldiers yet for other men the less they dare the better it is both for the Commonwealth and for themselves Frugality though perhaps you will think it strange is also a Royal Vertue for it increases the publick stock which cannot be too great for the Publick Use not any man too sparing of what he has in trust for the good of others Liberality also is a Royal Vertue for the Commonwealth cannot be well serv'd without Extraordinary Diligence and Service of Ministers and great Fidelity to their Soveraign who ought therefore to be incouraged and especially those that do him service in the Wars In summ all Actions or Habits are to be esteemed Good or Evil by their Causes and Usefulness in reference to the Commonwealth and not by their Mediocrity nor by their being Commended for several men praise several Customes and that which is vertue with one is blam'd by
Howsoever let me know what light we have in this matter from the Roman Histories A. It would be too long and an useless digression to cite all the Antient Authors that speake of the formes of those Common-wealths which were amongst our first Ancesters the Saxons and other Germans and of other Nations from whom we derive the Titles of Honour now in use in England nor will it be possible to derive from them any Arguments of Right but only examples of fact which by the Ambition of Potent Subjects have been oftner unjust then otherwise and for those Saxons or Angels that in Antient times by several Invasions made themselves Masters of this Nation they were not in themselves one Body of a Common-wealth but only a League of Divers Petty German Lords and states such as was the Graecian Army in the Trojan War without other Obligations than that which proceeded from their own fear and weakness nor were these Lords for the most part the soveraigns at home in their own Country but chosen by the People for the Captains of the forces they brought with them And therefore it was not without Equity that when they had conquer'd any part of the Land and made some one of them King thereof the rest should have greater Priviledges than the Common People and Souldiers amongst which Priviledges a man may easily conjecture this to to be one That they should be made acquainted and be of Council with him that hath the Soveraignty in matters of Government and have the greatest and most honourable Offices both in Peace and War But because there can be no Government where there is more than one Soveraign it cannot be inferr'd that they had a Right to oppose the Kings Resolutions by force nor to enjoy those honours and places longer than they should continue good Subjects And we find that the Kings of England did upon every great occasion call them together by the name of Discreet and Wise men of the Kingdom and hear their Councils and make them Judges of all Causes that during their Sitting were brought before them But as he summon'd them at his own pleasure so had he also ever at his pleasure power to Dissolve them The Normans also that Descended from the Germans as we did had the same Customs in this particular and by this means this Priviledge have the Lords to be of your Kings great Council and when they were assembled to be the highest of the Kings Court of Justice continued still after the Conquest to this day But though there be amongst the Lords divers Names or Titles of Honour yet they have their Priviledge by the only name of Baron a name receiv'd from the Antient Gauls amongst whom that name signified the King's Man or rather one of his great Men By which it seems to me that though they gave him Council when he requir'd it yet they had no Right to make War upon him if he did not follow it B. When began first the House of Commons to be part of the King 's great Council A. I do not doubt but that before the Conquest some Discreet Men and known to be so by the King were called by special Writ to be of the same Council though they were not Lords But that is nothing to the House of Commons the Knights of Shires and Burgesses were never called to Parliament for ought that I know till the beginning of Edward the first or the latter end of the Reign of Henry the third immediately after the mis behaviour of the Barons and for ought any man knows were called on purpose to weaken that Power of the Lords which they had so freshly abused Before the time of Henry the third the Lords were Descended most of them from such as in the Invasions and Conquests of the Germans were Peers and Fellow Kings till one was made King of them all and their Tenants were their Subjects as it is at this day with the Lords of France But after the time of Henry the third the Kings began to make Lords in the place of them whose Issue fail'd Titularly only without the Lands belonging to their Title and by that means their Tenants being bound no longer to serve them in the Wars they grew every day less and less able to make a Party against the King though they continued still to be his Great Council And as their Power decreased so the Power of the House of Commons increased But I do not find that they were part of the Kings Council at all nor Judges over other men though it cannot be denied but a King may ask their advice as well as the advice of any other But I do not find that the end of their summoning was to give advice but only in case they had any Petitions for Redress of Grievances to be ready there with them whilst the King had his Great Council about him But neither they nor the Lords could present to the King as a Grievance That the King took upon him to make the Laws to chuse his own Privy Council to raise Money and Souldiers to defend the Peace and Honour of the Kingdom to make Captains in his Army to make Governours of his Castle whom he pleased for this had been to tell the King that it was one of their Grievances that he was King B. What did the Parliament do whilst the King was in Scotland A. The King went in August after which the Parliament September the 8th adjourn'd till the 20th of October and the King return'd about the end of November following in which time the most Seditious of both Houses and which had Designed the Change of Government and to cast off Monarchy but yet had not wit enough to set up another Government in its place and consequently lest it to the Chance of War made a Cabal amongst themselves in which they projected how by seconding one another to Govern the House of Commons and invented how to put the Kingdom by the Power of that House into a Rebellion which they then called a posture of Defence against such Dangers from abroad as they themselves should feign and publish Besides whilst the King was in Scotland the Irish Papists got togeter a great Party with an Intention to Massacre the Protestants there and had laid a Design for the seizing of Dublin Castle October the 20th where the King's Officers of the Government of the County made their Residence and had effected it had it not been Discovered the night before The Manner of the Discovery and the Murders they committed in the Country afterwards I need not tell you since the whole story of it is extant B. I wonder they did not expect provide for a Rebellion in Ireland as soon as they began to quarrel with the King in England For was there any body so ignorant as not to know that the Irish Papists did long for a Change of Religion there as well as the Presbyterians in England Or that in
might compose a body fit to Act according to their Counsels and Resolutions A fourth That they endeavoured to put the King upon other courses of Raising Money than by the ordinary way of Parliaments Judge whether these may be properly called Accusations or not rather spightful Reproaches of the King's Government B. Methinks this last was a very great fault for what good could there be in putting the King upon any odd course of getting Money when the Parliament was willing to supply him as far as to the security of the Kingdom or to the honour of the King should be necessary A. But I told you before they would give him none but with a Condition he should cut off the heads of whom they pleased how faithfully soever they had serv'd him and if he would have sacrificed all his Friends to their Ambition yet they would have found other excuses to deny him Subsidies for they were resolv'd to take from him the Soveraign Power to themselves which they would never do without taking great care that he should have no Money at all In the next place they put into the Remonstrance as faults of them whose Council the King followed All those things which since the beginning of the King's Reign were by them mis-liked whether faults or not and whereof they were not able to judge for want of knowledge of the Causes and Motives that induced the King to do them and were known only to the King himself and such of his Privy-Council as he revealed them to B. But what were those particular pretended faults A. First The Dissolution of his last Parliament at Oxford Secondly The Dissolution of his second Parliament being in the second year of his Reign Thirdly The Dissolution of his Parliament in the fourth year of his Reign Fourthly The fruitless Expedition against Cales Fifthly The Peace made with Spain whereby the Palatine's Cause was deserted and left to chargeable and hopeless Treaties Sixthly The sending of Commissions to raise Money by way of Loan Seventhly Raising of Ship-money Eighthly Enlargements of Forrests contrary to Magna-Charta Ninthly The Designment of Engrossing all the Gun-powder into one hand and keeping it in the Tower of London Tenthly A Design to bring in the Use of Brass-Money Eleventhly The Fines Imprisonments Stigmatizings Mutilations Whippings Pillories Gaggs Confinements and Banishments by Sentence in the Court of Star-Chamber Twelfthly The Displacing of Judges Thirteenthly The Illegal Acts of Council-Table Fourteenthly The Arbitrary and Illegal Power of the Earl-Marshal's Court. Fifteenthly The Abuses in Chancery Exchequer-Chamber and Court of Wards Sixteenthly The selling of Titles of Honour of Judges and Serjeants Places and other Offices Seventeenthly The Insolence of Bishops and other Clarks in Suspensions Excommunications and Degradations of divers painful and learned and pious Ministers B. Were there any such Ministers Degraded Depraved or Excommunicated A. I cannot tell But I remember I have heard threatned divers painful unlearned and seditious Ministers Eighteenthly The Excess of Severity of the High Commission-Court Nineteenthly The Preaching before the King against the Property of the Subject and for the Prerogative of the King above the Law and divers other petty Quarrels they had to the Government which though they were laid upon this Faction yet they knew they would fall upon the King himself in the Judgment of the People to whom by Printing it was communicated Again After the Dissolution of the Parliament May the 5th 1640. they find other faults as the Dissolution it self the Imprisoning some Members of both Houses a forced Loan of Money attempted in London the Continuance of the Convocation when the Parliament was ended and the favour shewed to Papists by Secretary Windebank and others B. All this will go current with common people for Mis-government and for faults of the King 's though some of them were Misfortunes and both the Mis-fortunes and the Mis-government if any were were the faults of the Parliament who by denying to give him Money did both frustrate his Attempts abroad and put him upon those extraordinary waies which they call Illegal of raising Money at home A. You see what a heap of Evils they have raised to make a shew of ill Government to the People which they second with an enumeration of the many services they have done the King in overcoming a great many of them though not all and in divers other things and say that though they had contracted a Debt to the Scots of 22000 l. and granted six Subsidies and a Bill of Pole-money worth six Subsidies more yet that God had so blessed the Endeavours of this Parliament that the Kingdom was a gainer by it and then follows the Catalogue of those good things they had done for the King and Kingdom For the Kingdom they had done they said these things They had abolished Shipâ— money They had taken away Coat and Conduct-money and other Military Charges which they said amounted to little less than the Ship-money That they supprest all Monopolies which they reckoned above a Million yearly sav'd by the Subject That they had quell'd Living Grievances meaning Evil Councillors and Actors by the Death of my Lord Strafford by the flight of the Chancellor Finch and of Secretary Windebank by the Imprisonment of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury and Judges that they had past a Bill for a Triennial Parliament and another for the Continuance of the present Parliament till they should think fit to Dissolve themselves B. That is to say for ever if they be suffered But the summe of all those things which they had done for the Kingdom is that they had left it without Government without Strength without Money without Law and without good Council A. They reckoned also putting down of the High Commission and the abating of the Power of the Council-Table and of the Bishops and their Courts the taking away of unnecessary Ceremonies in Religion removing of Ministers from their Livings that were not of their Faction and putting in such as were B. All this was but their own and not the Kingdoms business A. The Good they had done the King was first they said the giving of 25000 l. a month for the Relief of the Northern Counties B. What need of Relief had the Northern more than the rest of the Counties of England B. Yes In the Northern Counties were quartered the Scotch Army which the Parliament call'd in to oppose the King and consequently their Quarter was to be discharged B. True but by the Parliament that call'd them in A. But they say no and that this Money was given the King because he is bound to protect his Subjects B. He is no farther bound to that than they to give him Money wherewithal to do it This is very great Impudence to raise an Army against the King and with that Army to oppress their Fellow-subjects and then require that the King should relieve them that is to say be at the Charge of Paying the Army that was
have heard I believe how great a Darling of the people his Father had been before him and what Honour he had gotten by the success of his Enterprize upon Cales and in some other Military actions To which I may add That this Earl himself was not held by the People to be so great a Favourite at Court as that they might not trust him with their Army against the King and by this you may perhaps conjecture the cause for which the Parliament made choice of him for General B. But why did they think him discontented with the Court A. I know not that nor indeed that he was so he came to Court as other Noblemen did when occasion was to wait upon the King but had no Office till a little before this time to oblige him to be there continually but I believe verily that the unfortunateness of his Marriage had so discountenanced his Conversation with Ladies that the Court could be his proper Element unless he had had some extraordinary savour there to balance that calamity for particular discontent from the King or intention of revenge for any supposed disgrace I think he had none nor that he was any wayes addicted to Presbyterian Doctrines or other Fanatick Tenets in Church or State saving only that he was carried away with the stream in a manner of the whole Nation to think that England was not an absolute but a mixt Monarchy not considering that the Supreme Power must alwayes be absolute whether it be in the King or in the Parliament B. Who was General of the Kings Army A. None yet but Himself nor indeed had He yet any Army but there coming to him at that time two Nephews the Princes Rupert and Maurice He put the Command of His Horse into the hands of Prince Rupert a Man then whom no man living has a better courage nor was more active and diligent in prosecuting his Commission and though but a young Man then was not without experience in the conducting of Soldiers as having been an Actor in part of his Fathers Wars in Germany B. But how would the King find money to pay such an Army as was necessary for Him against the Parliament A. Neither the King nor Parliament had much money at that time in their own hands but were fain to relie upon the Benevolence of those that took their parts wherein I confess the Parliament had a mighty great advantage those that helped the King in that kind were only Lords and Gentlemen which not approving the proceedings of the Parliament were willing to undertake the payment every one of a certain number of Horse which cannot be thought any very great assistance the persons that payed them being so few for other Monies that the King then had I have not heard of any but what he borrow'd upon Jewels in the Low-Countries whereas the Parliament had a very plentiful Contribution not only from London but generally from their Faction in all other places of England upon certain Propositions published by the Lords and Commons in June 1642. at which time they had newly Voted That the King intended to make War upon them for bringing in of Money or Plate to maintain Horse and Horsemen and to buy Arms for the preservation of the Publick Peace and for the defence of the King and both Houses of Parliament for the Re-payment of which Money and Plate they were to have the Publick Faith B. What Publick Faith is there when there is no Publick What is it that can be call'd Publick in a Civil War without the King A. The Truth is the Security was nothing worth but serv'd well enough to gull those seditious Blockheads that were more fond of change than either of their peace or profit having by this means gotten Contributions from those that were the well-affected to their Cause they made use of it afterwards to force the like Contribution from others for in November following they made an Ordinance for Assessing also of those that had not Contributed then or had Contributed but not proportionably to their Estates And yet this was contrary to what the Parliâ—ment promised and declar'd in the Propositions themselves for they declar'd in the first Proposition That no mans Affection should be measured by the prâ—portion of his Offer so that he expressed his good will to the Service in any proportion whatsoever Besides this in the beginning of March following they made an Ordinance to Levy weekly a great Sum of money upon every County City Town Place and Person of any Estate almost in England which weekly Sum as may appear by the Ordinance it self printed and published in March 1642 by Order of both Houses comes to almost 33000 l. and consequently to above 1700000 l. for the year They had besides all this the Profits of the King's Lands and Woods and whatsoever was remaining unpaid of any Subsidy formerly granted Him and the Tunnage and Poundage usually received by the King besides the profit of the Sequestration of great persons whom they pleas'd to vote Delinquents and the profits of the Bishops Lands which they took to themselves a year or a little more after B. Seeing then the Parliament had such advantage of the King in Money Arms and multitude of Men and had in their hands the King's Fleet I cannot imagine what hope the King could have either of Victory unless He resign'd into their hands the Sovereignty or subsisting for I cannot well believe He had any advantage of them either in Councillors Conducts or in the Resolution of his Soldiers A. On the contrary I think He had also some disadvantage in that for though He had as good Officers at least as any then serv'd the Parliament yet I doubt He had not so useful Council as was necessary And for His Soldiers though they were Men as stout as theirs yet because their Valor was not sharpned so with Malice as theirs was of the other side they sought not so keenly as their Enemies did amongst whom there was a great many London Apprentices who for want of experience in the War would have been fearful enough of death and wounds approaching visibly in glittering Swords but for want of judgment scarce thought of such a death as comes invisibly in a Bullet and therefore were very hardly to be driven out of the Field B. But what fault do you find in the King's Councils Lords and other Persons of Quality and Experience A. Only that fault which was generally in the whole Nation which was That they thought the Government of England was not an absolute but a mixt Monarchy and that if the King should clearly subdue this Parliament that His power would be what He pleased and theirs as little as He pleased which they counted Tyranny This opinion though it did not lesâ—en their endeavors to gain the Victory for the King in a Battel when the Battel could not be avoided yet it weakned their endeavors to procure him an absolute
they from time to time should send him And to make this credible Cromwel himself caused Money to be sent to him The following year 1654. had nothing of War but was spent in Civil Ordinances in appointing of Judges preventing of Plots for Usurpers are jealous and in executing of the Kings Friends and selling their Lands The third of September according to the Instrument the Parliament met in which there was no House of Lords and the House of Commons was made as formerly of Knights and Burgesses but not as formerly two Burgesses of a Burrough and two Knights for a County for Burroughs for the most part had but one Burgess and some Counties six or seven Knights besides there were twenty Members for Scotland and as many for Ireland So that now Cromwell had nothing to do but to shew his Art of Government upon six Coach-Horses newly presented him which being as rebellious as himself threw him out of the Coach-box and had almost kill'd him B. This Parliament which had seen how Cromwel handled the two former the long and the short one had surely learnt the wit to behave themselves better to him than those had done A. Yes especially now that Cromwel in his Speech at their first meeting had expresly forbidden them to meddle with the Government of a single Person and Parliament or with the Militia or with perpetuating of Parliaments or taking away Liberty of Conscience And he told them also that every Member of the House before they sate must take a Recognition of his Power in divers points whereupon of above 400 there appear'd not above 200 at first though afterwards some relenting there sate about 300 again Just at their sitting down he published some Ordinances of his own bearing date before their meeting that they might see he took his own Acts to be as valid as theirs But all this could not make them know themselves for they proceeded to the debate of every Article of the Recognition B. They should have debated that before they had taken it A. But then they had never been suffered to sit Cromwell being informed of their stubborn proceedings and out of hope of any Supply from them dissolv'd them All that passed besides in this year was the Excise of the High-Court of Justice upon some Royalists for Plots In the Year 1655. the English to the number of near 10000 landed in Hispaniola in hope of the plunder of the Gold and Silver whereof they thought there was great abundance in the Town of Santo Domingo but were well beaten by a few Spaniards and with the loss of near 1000 Men went off to Jamaica and possessed it This year also the Royal Party made another Attempt in the West and proclaimed there King Charles the Second but few joining with them and some falling off they were soon suppressed and many of the Principal Persons Executed B. In these many Insurrections the Royalists tho they meant well yet they did but dis-service to the King by their impatience What hope had they to prevail against so great an Army as the Protector had ready What cause was there to despair of seeing the King's business better done by the Dissention and Ambition of the great Commmanders in that Army whereof many had the favour to be esteem'd among them as well as Cromwel himself A. That was somewhat incertain The Protector being frustrated of his hope of Money at Santo Domingo resolv'd to take from the Royalists the 10th part yearly of their Estates And to this end chiefly he divided England into eleven Major-General-Ships with Commission to every Major-General to make a Roll of the Names of all suspected persons of the King's party and to receive the 10th part of their Estates within his Precinct As also to take caution from them not to act against the State and to reveal all Plots that should come to their knowledge and to make them engage the like for their Servants They had Commission also to forbid Horse-races and concourse of people and to receive and account for this Decimation B. By this the Usurper might easily inform himself of the value of all the Estates in England and of the Behaviour and Affection of every person of Quality which has heretofore been taken for very great Tyranny A. The year 1656 was a Parliament-year by the instrument between the beginning of this year and the day of the Parliaments sitting these Major-Generals resided in several Provinces behaving themselves most Tyrannically Amongst other of their Tyrannies was the awing of Elections and making themselves and whom they pleas'd to be return'd Members for the Parliament which was also thought a part of Cromwel's Design in their Constitution for he had need of a giving Parliament having lately upon a Peace made with the French drawn upon himself a War with Spain This year it was that Captain Stainer set upon the Spanish Plate-fleet being 8 in number near Cadiz whereof he sunk two and took two there being in one of them two millions of pieces of 8 which amounts to 400000 l. sterling This year also it was that James Naylor appear'd at Bristol and would be taken for Jesus Christ he wore his Beard forked and his Hair compos'd to the likeness of that in the Volto Santo and being questioned would sometimes answer Thou sayest it He had also his Disciples that would go by his Horse side to the mid-leg in dirt Being sent for by the Parliament he was Sentenced to stand on the Pillory to have his Tongue bored through and to be marked in the Fore-head with the Letter B for Blasphemy and to remain in Bridewell Lambert a great Favourite of the Army endeavour'd to save him partly because he had been his Souldier and partly to carry favour with the Sectaries of the Army for he was now no more in the Protector 's Favour but meditating how he might succeed him in his Power About two years before this there appear'd in Cromwel's time a Prophetess much fam'd for her Dreams and Visions and hearkened to by many whereof some were Eminent Officers but she and some of her Complices being imprison'd we heard no more of her B. I have heard of another one Lilly that Prophesied all the time of the Long-Parliament what did they to him A. His Prophesies were of another kind he was a Writer of Almanacks and a Pretender to a pretended Art of Judicial Astrologie a meer Cozener to get Maintenance from a Multitude of ignorant people and no doubt had been call'd in question if his Prophesies had been any wayes disadvantageous to the Parliament B. I understand not how the Dreams and Prognostications of mad meâ— for such I take to be all those that foretel future Contingences can be of any great disadvantage to the Common-Wealth A. Yes yes know there is nothing that renders Humane Councils difficult but the incertainty of future time nor that so well directs men in their deliberations as the fore-sight of the sequels
might do something that might look like Hostility It hapned in the year 1637. that the King by the advice as it is thought of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury sent down a Book of Common Prayer into Scotland not differing in substance from ours nor much in words besides the putting of the word Presbyter for that of Minister commanding it to be used for Conformity to this Kingdom by the ministers there for an ordinary form of Divine Service this being read out the Church at Edinburgh caused such a Tumult there that he that read it had much adoe to escape with his life and gave occasion to the greatest part of the Nobility and others to enter by their own Authority into a Covenant amongst themselves to put down Episcopacy without consulting the King which they presently did animated thereto by their own Confidence or by assurance from some of the Democratical English men that in former Parliaments had been the greatest opposers of the King's interest that the King would not be able to raise an Army to chastise them without calling a Parliament which would be sure to favour them for the thing which those Democraticals chiefly then aimed at was to force the King to call a Parliament which he had not done of ten years before as having found no help but hinderance to his designs in the Parliaments he had formerly called Howsoever contrary to their expectation by the help of his better affected Subjects of the Nobility and Gentry he made a shift to raise a sufficient Army to have reduced the Scots to their former obedience if it had proceeded to Battle And with this Army he marched himself into Scotland where the Scotch Army was also brought into the Field against him as if they meant to fight but then the Scotch sent to the King for leave to treat by Commissioners on both sides and the King willing to avoid the destruction of his own Subjects condescended to it the issue was Peace and the King thereupon went to Edinburgh and passed an Act of Parliament there to their Satisfaction B. Did he not then confirm Episcopacy A. No but yielded to the abolishing of it but by the means the English were crossed in their hope of a Parliament but the Democraticals formerly opposers of the King's Interest ceased not to endeavour still to put the two Nations into a War to the end the King might buy the Parliament's help at no less a price than Soveraignty it self B. But what was the Cause that the Gentry and Nobility of Scotland were so averse from Episcopacy For I can hardly believe that their Consciences were extraordinarily tender nor that they were so very great Divines as to know what was the true Church Discipline established by our Saviour and his Apostles nor yet so much in love with their Ministers as to be over-ruled by them in the Government either Ecclesiastical or Civil for in their lives they were just as other men are Pursuers of their own Interests and Preferments wherein they were not more opposed by the Bishops than by their Presbyterian Ministers A. Truly I do not know I cannot enter into other mens thoughts farther than I am lead by the consideration of Human Nature in general But upon this consideration I see First That men of antient Wealth and Nobility are not apt to brook that poor Schollars should as they must when they are made Bishops be their Fellows Secondly That from the emulation of Glory between the Nations they be willing to see their Nation afflicted with Civil War and might hope by aiding the Rebels here to acquire some Power over the English at least so far as to establish here the Presbyterian Discipline which was also one of the points they afterwards openly demanded Lastly They might hope for in the War some great sum of money as a reward of their assistance besides great Booty which they afterwards obtained but whatsoever was the cause of their hatred to Bishops the pulling of them down was not all they aimed at if it had now that Episcopacy was abolished by Act of Parliament they would have rested satisfied which they did not for after the King was returned to London the English Presbyterians and Democraticals by whose favour they had put down Bishops in Scotland thought it reason to have the assistance of the Scotch for the pulling down of Bishops in England and in order thereunto they might perhaps deal with the Scots secretly to rest unsatisfied with that pacification which they were before contented with howsoever it was not long after the King was returned to London they sent up to some of their friends at Court a certain Paper containing as they pretended the Articles of the said Pacification a false and Scandalous Paper which was by the King's Command burnt as I have heard publickly and so both parts returned to the same Condition as they were in when the King went down with his Army B. And so there was a great deal of Money cast away to no purpose but you have not told me who was General of that Army A. I told you the King was there in Person he that commanded under him was the Earl of Arundel a man that wanted not either Valour oâ— Judgement but to proceed to Battle or to Treaty was not in his Power but in the King 's B. He was a man of a most Noble and Loyal Family and whose Ancestors had formerly given a great overthrow to the Scots in their own Countrey and in all likelihood he might have given them the like now if they had Fought A. He might indeed but it had been but a kind of Superstition to have made him General upon that account though many Generals heretofore have been chosen for the good luck of their Ancestors in the like occasions In the long War between Athens and Sparta a General of the Athenians by Sea won many Victories against the Spartans for which cause after his death they chose his Son for General with ill success The Romans that Conquered Carthage by the Valor and Conduct of Scipio when they were to make War again in Africk against Caesar chose another Scipio a man Valiant and Wise enough but he perished in the imployment And to come home to our own Nation the Earl of Essex made a fortunate Expedition to Cadiz but his Son sent afterwards to the same place could do nothing 'T is but a foolish Superstition to hope that God has entailed success in War upon a Name or Family B. After the Pacification broken what succeeded next A. The King sent Duke Hamilton with Commission and Instructions into Scotland to call a Parliament there but all was to no purpose and to use all the means he could otherwise but the Scots were resolved to raise an Army and to enter into England to deliver as they pretended their grievances to his Majesty in a Petition because the King they said being in the hands of evil Councellors they could
also they presently did giving out all the way that their march should be without damage to the Country and that their Errand was onely to deliver a Petition to the King for the redress of many pretended Injuries they had received from such of the Court whose Counsel the King most followed so they passed through Northumberland quietly till they came to a Ford in the River of Tine a little above Newcastle where they found some little opposition from a party of the King's Army sent thither to Stop them whom the Scots easily mastered and as soon as they were over seized upon Newcastle and coming farther on upon the City of Duresme and sent to the King to desire a Treaty which was granted and the Commissioners on both sides met at Rippon the conclusion was that all should be referred to the Parliament which the King should call to meet at Westminster the third of November following in the same year 1640. And thereupon the King returned to London B. So the Armies were disbanded A. No The Scotch Army was to be defrayed by the Counties of Northumberland and Duresme and the King was to pay his own till the disbanding of both should be agreed upon in Parliament B. So in effect both the Armies were maintained at the King's charge and the whole Controversie to be desided by a Parliament almost wholly Presbyterian and as Partial to the Scotch as themselves could have wished A. And yet for all this they durst not presently make War upon the King there was so much yet left of Reverence to him in the Hearts of the People as to have made them odious if they had declared what they intended they must have some colour or other to make it be believed that the King made War first upon the Parliament And besides they had not yet sufficiently disgraced him in Sermons and Pamphlets nor removed from about him those they thought could best counsel him therefore they resolved to proceed with him like skilfull hunters First to single him out by men disposed in all parts to drive him into the open field and then in case he should not seem to turn head to call that making a War against the Parliament And first They called in question such as had either Preached or written in defence of those Rights which belonging to the Crown they meant to usurp and take from the King to themselves whereupon some few Writers and Preachers were imprisoned or forced to fly The King not protecting these they proceeded to call in question some of the King 's own Actions in his Ministers whereof they Imprisoned some and some went beyond Sea and whereas certain persons having endeavoured by Book and Sermons to raise Sedition and committed other Crimes of high Nature had therefore been censured by the Kings Council in the Star-Chamber and Imprisoned the Parliament by their own Authority to try it seems how the King and the People would take it for their Persons were inconsiderable ordered their setting at Liberty which was accordingly done with great Applause of the People that flocked about them in London in manner of a Triumph This being done without resistance the Kings Right to Ship-mony B. Ship-mony What 's that A. The Kings of England for the defence of the Sea had power to Tax all the Counties of England whether they were Maritine or not for the Building and furnishing of Ships which Tax the King had then lately found cause to impose and the Parliament exclaimed against it as an oppression and one of their members that had been Taxed but 20 shillings mark the Oppression a Parliament-man of 500 lb. a year Land Taxed at 20 shillings they were forced to bring it to a Trial at Law he refusing payment and he was cast again when all the Judges of Westminster were demanded their opinions concerning the legality of it of Twelve that there are it was judged Legal by Ten for which though they were not punished yet they were affrighted by the Parliament B. What did the Parliament mean when they did exclaim against it as illegal Did they mean it was against Statute Law or against the Judgments of Lawyers given heretofore which are commonly called Reports or did they mean it was against Equity which I take to be the â—ame with the Law of Nature A. It is a hard matter or rather impossible to know what other men mean especially if they be crafty but sure I am Equity was not their Ground for their pretence of Immunity from Contributing to the King but at their own pleasure for when they have laid the Burthen of defending the whole Kingdom and Governing it upon any person whatsoever there is little Equity he should depend on others for the means of performing it or if he do they are his Soveraign not he theirs and as for the Common Law contained in Reports they have no force but what the King gives them besides it were unreasonable that a corrupt or foolish Judge's unjust Sentence should by any time how long soever obtain the authority and force of a Law but amongst the Statute Laws there is one called Magna Charta or The great Charter of the Liberties of English men in which there is one Article that no man shall be distrained that is have his Goods taken from him otherwise than by the Law of the Land B. Is not that a sufficient ground for their purpose A. No that leaves us in the same doubt which you think it clears for where was the Law of the Land then Did they mean another Magna Charta that was made by some King more antient yet No that Statute was made not to exempt any man from payments to the Publick but for securing of every man from such as abused the King's Power by surreptitious obtaining of the King's Warrants to the oppressing of those against whom he had any Suite in Law but it was conducing to the end of some rebellious Spirits in this Parliament to have it interpreted in the wrong sense and suitable enough to the understanding of the rest or most part of them to let it pass B. You make the members of that Parliament very simple men and yet the People chose them for the wisest of the Land A. If Craft be Wisedom they were wise enough but Wise as I deâ—ino it is he that knows how to bring his business to pass without the Assistance of Knavery and ignoble shifts by the sole strength of his good contrivance a Fool may win from a better Gamester by the advantage of false Dice and Packing of Cards B. According to your difinition there be few wise men now adays such Wisedome is a kind of Gallantry that few are brought up to and most think Folly fine Cloaths great Feathers Civility towards men that will not swallow Injuries and Injury towards them that will is the present Gallantry but when the Parliament afterwards having gotten the power into their hands levied money to their
therefore they might govern well enough if they had honesty and wit enough The first Act of the Rump was the Exclusion of those Members of the House of Commons which had been formerly kept out by violence for the procuring of an Ordinance for the Kings Tryal for these men had appear'd against the Ordinance of Non-Addresses and therefore to be excluded because they might else be an impediment to their future designs B. Was it not rather because in the Authority of few they thought the fewer the better both in regard of their shares and also of a nearer approach in every one of them to the Dignity of a King A. Yes certainly that was their principal end B. When these were put out why did not the Counties and Burroughs chuse others in their places A. They could not do that without Order from the House After this they constituted a Council of forty persons which they termed a Council of State whose Office was to execute what the Rump should command B. When there was neither King nor House of Lords they could not call themselves a Parliament for a Parliament is a meeting of the King Lords and Commons to confer together about the businesses of the Common-wealth with whom did the Rump confer A. Men may give to their Assembly what Name they please what signification soever such Name might formerly have had and the Rump took the Name of Parliament as most suitable to their purpose and such a Name as being Venerable among the people for many hundred years had countenanced and sweetned Subsidies and other Levies of Money otherwise very unpleasant to the Subject They took also afterwards another name which was Custodes Libertatis Angliae which Title they used only in their Writs issuing out of the Courts of Justice B. I do not see how a Subject that is tyed to the Laws can have more liberty in one form of Government than another A. Howsoever to the people that understand by Liberty nothing but leave to do what they list it was a Title not ingrateful Their next work was to set forth a publick Declaration that they were fully resolv'd to maintain the Fundamental Laws of the Nation as to the preservation of the Lives Liberties and Proprieties of the people B. What did they mean by the Fundamental Laws of the Nation A. Nothing but to abuse the people for the only Fundamental Law in every Commonwealth is to obey the Laws from time to time which he shall make to whom the People have given the Supreme Power How likely then are they to uphold the Fundamental Laws that had murdered him who was by themselves so often acknowledged their lawful Soveraign Besides at the same time that this Declaration came forth they were erecting the High Court of Justice which took away the lives of Duke Hamilton the Earl of Holland and the Lord Capel whatsoever they meant by a Fundamentall Law the erecting of this Court was a breach of it as being warranted by no former Law or Example in England At the same time also they levied Taxes by Souldiers and permitted Free Quarter to them and did many other Actions which if the King had done they would have said had been done against the Liberty and Propriety of the Subject B. What silly things are the common sort of people to be cozen'd as they were so grosly A. What sort of people as to this matter are not of the common sort the craftiest Knaves of all the Rump were no wiser than the rest whom they cozen'd for the most of them did believe that the same things which they impos'd upon the generality were just and reasonable and especially the great Haranguers and such as pretended to Learning for who can be a good Subject in a Monarchy whose Principles are taken from the Enemies of Monarchy such as were Cicero Seneca Cato and other Polititians of Rome and Aristotle of Athens who spake of Kings but as Wolves and other ravenous Beasts You may perhaps think a man has need of nothing else to know the duty he owes to his Governour and what right he has to order him but a good Natural Wit But it is otherwise for it is a Science and built upon sure and clear Principles and to be learn'd by deep and careful study or from Masters that have deeply studied it And who was there in the Parliament or in the Nation that could find out those evident Principles and derive from thence the necessary Rules of Justice and the necessary Connexion of Justice and Peace The people have one day in seven the leisure to hear Instructions and there are Ministers appointed to teach them their duty But how have these Ministers perform'd their Office A great part of them namely the Presbyterian Ministers throughout the whole War instigated the people against the King so did also Independent and other fanatick Ministers The rest contented with their Livings preached in their Parishes points of Controversie to Religion importinent but to the breach of Charity among themselves very effectual or else Eloquent things which the people either understood not or thought themselves not concern'd in But this sort of Preachers as they did little good so they did little hurt the mischief proceeded wholly from the Presbyterian Preachers who by a long practis'd Histrionick Faculty preached up the Rebellion powerfully B. To what end A. To the end that the State becoming popular the Church might be so too and govern'd by an Assembly and consequently as they thought seeing Politicks are subservient to Religion they might govern and thereby satisfie their covetous humour with Riches and also their malice with Power to undo all men that admir'd not their wisdom Your calling the people silly things oblig'd me by this digression to shew you that it is not want of Wit but want of the Science of Justice that brought them into these troubles Perswade if you can that man that has made his Fortune or made it greater or an Eloquent Orator or a ravishing Poet or a subtil Lawyer or but a good Hunter or a cunning Gamester that he has not a good Wit and yet there were of all these a great many so silly as to be deceived by the Rump They wanted not wit but the knowledge of the Causes and grounds upon which one person has a right to govern and the rest an obligation to obey which grounds are necessary to be taught the people who without them cannot live long in peace among themselves B. Let us return if you please to the proceedings of the Rump A. In the rest of the year they voted a new Stamp for the Coyn of this Nation They considered also of Agents to be sent into foreign parts and having lately receiv'd Applause from the Army for their work done by the High Court of Justice and encouragement to extend the same farther they perfected the said High Court of Justice in which were tryed Duke Hamilton the Earl of Holland
of their Actions Prophesie being many times the Principal Cause of the Event foretold If upon some prediction the people should have been made to believe confidently That Oliver Cromwel and his Army should be upon a day to come utterly defeated would not every one have endeavour'd to assist and to deserve well of the Party that should give him the defeat upon this account it was that Fortune-tellers and Astrologers were so often banished out of Rome The last memorable thing of this year was a Motion made by a Member of the House an Alderman of London That the Protector might be petitioned and advised by the House to leave the Title of Protector and take upon him that of King B. That was indeed a bold Motion and which would if prosperous have put an end to many mens Ambition and to the licentiousness of the whole Army I think the Motion was made on purpose to ruine both the Protector himself and his ambitious Officers A. It may be so In the year 1657 the first thing the Parliament did was the drawing up his Petition to the Protector to take upon him the Title or King as of other Parliaments so of this the greatest part had been kept out of the House by force or else themselves had forborn to sit and became guilty of setting up this King Oliver but those few that sate presented their Petition to the Protector April the 9th in the Banquetting house at Whitehall where Sir Thomas Widdrington the Speaker used the first Arguments and the Protector desired some time to seek God the Business being weighty The next day they sent a Committee to him to receive his answer which answer being not very clear they pressed him again for a resolution to which he made answer in a long Speech that ended in a peremptory Refusal and so retaining still the Title of Protector he took upon him the Government according to certain Articles contained in the said Petition B. What made him refuse the Title of King A. Because he durst not take it at that time the Army being addicted to their great Officers and among their great Officers many hoping to succeed him and the Succession having been promised to Major General Lambert would have mutinied against him he was therefore forced to stay for a more propitious Conjuncture B. What were those Articles A. The most important of them were first That he would exercise the Office of chief Magistrate of England Scotland and Ireland under the Title of Protector and govern the same according to the said Petition and advice and that he would in his life time name his Successor B. I believe the Scots when they first Rebell'd never thought of being Governed absolutely as they were by Oliver Cromwel A. Secondly That he should call a Parliament every three years at farthest Thirdly That those persons which were legally chosen Members should not be secluded without consent of the House In allowing this Clause the Protector observed not that the secluded Members of this same Parliament are thereby re-admitted Fourthly The Members were qualified Fifthly The Power of the other House was defin'd Sixthly That no Law should be made but by Act of Parliament Seventhly That a constant yearly Revenue of a Million of pounds should be setled for the maintenance of the Army and Navy and 300000 l. for the support of the Government besides other Temporary supplies as the House of Commons should think sit Eighthly That all the Officers of State should be chosen by the Parliament Ninthly That the Protector should encourage the Ministry Lastly That he should cause a profession of Religion to be agreed on and published There are divers others of less importance Having signed the Articles he was presently with great Ceremonies installed a-new B. What needed that seeing he was still but Protector A. But the Articles of this Petition were not all the same with those of his former Instrument for now there was to be another House and whereas before his Council was to name his Successors he had Power now to do it himself so that he was an absolute Monarch and might leave the Succession to his Son if he would and so successively or transfer it to whom he pleas'd The Ceremony being ended the Parliament adjourn'd to the 20th of January following and then the other House also sate with their Fellows The House of Commons being now full took little notice of the other House wherein there were not of 60 persons above nine Lords but fell a questioning all that their Fellows had done during the time of their Seclusion whence had follow'd the avoidance of the Power newly placed in the Protector Therefore going to the house he made a Speech to them ending in these words By the living God I must and do dissolve you In this year the English gave the Spaniard another great Blow at Santa Cruz not much less than that they had given him the year before at Cadiz About the time of the dissolution of this Parliament the Royalists had another Design against the Protector which was to make an Insurrection in England the King being then in Flanders ready to second them from thence with an Army But this also was discover'd by Treachery and came to nothing but the ruine of those that were ingaged in it whereof many in the beginning of the next year were by a High Court of Justice imprison'd and some executed This year also was Major General Lambert put out of all employment a Man second to none but Oliver in the favour of the Army but because he expected by that favour or by promise from the Protector to be his Successor in the Supreme Power it would have been dangerous to let him have Command in the Army the Protector having design'd his Successor his Eldest Son Richard In the year 1658. September the third the Protector died at White-Hall having ever since his last Establishment been perplexed with fear of being kill'd by some desperate attempts of the Royalists Being importun'd in his sickness by his Privy Council to name his Successor he nam'd his Son Richard who incouraged thereunto not by his own Ambition but by Fleetwood Desborough Thurloe and other of his Council was content to take it upon him and presently Addresses were made to him from the Armies in England Scotland and Ireland His first business was the chargeable and splendid Funeral of his Father Thus was Richard Cromwel seated in the Imperial Throne of England Scotland and Ireland Successor to his Father lifted up to it by the Officers of the Army then in Town and congratulated by all the parts of the Army throughout the three Nations scarce any Garrison omitting their particular flattering Addresses to him B. Seeing the Army approv'd of him how came he so soon cast off A. The Army was inconstant he himself irresolute and without any Millitary Glory and though the two principal Officers had a near relation to him yet neither of them