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A01004 God and the king. Or a dialogue wherein is treated of allegiance due to our most gracious Lord, King Iames, within his dominions Which (by remouing all controuersies, and causes of dissentions and suspitions) bindeth subiects, by an inuiolable band of loue and duty, to their soueraigne. Translated out of Latin into English.; Deus et rex. English Floyd, John, 1572-1649.; More, Thomas, 1565-1625, attributed name. 1620 (1620) STC 11110.7; ESTC S107002 53,200 142

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together with the vse of Scriptures their authority to iudge definitions of the Church by Scriptures The deuisers of this way seemed to haue great zeale of the truth but were not carefull to prouide for peace And so in practise this deuise begot a multitude of Sects and Religions one against another that many weary of all began to thinke it were better men should be vnited in error then thus mortally diuided in Truth A meane was deuised to decide Controuersies by nationall Synods that are confessed may erre but the Ciuil magistrate as our chief Deuines teach as being President in them is to compell his subiects by the sword to imbrace those doctrines that be determined be they true or fals For this course say they was appointed by God who thought it better in the eye of his vnderstanding that sometimes an erroneous definitiue sentence should preuaile then that strifes should haue respite to grow and not come speedily to some end Heere desire of peace concord may seeme to haue made these men lesse zealous of the Truth then behooued them So it opened a gappe specially in England to prophanes irreligiosity which is to be iust of the Kings Religion whatsoeuer it be or rather of none A salue for this sore hath been inuēted that subiects ought to obey their Princes Lawes and definitions when they haue only probabilities against them not when they haue necessary and demonstratiue reasons which discharge the conscience and giue liberty to resist This caueat and salue for Truth sets the wound of dissention againe a bleeding Sects in the world are now allmost infinite for number amongest which not one is found that pretendeth not cleere and euident demonstration and proofe from holy Scripture for their contrary and repugnant opinions And who shall iudg in this contradiction and confusion whose reasons are necessary and demonstratiue The arguments which we think demonstrati●e moue Papists nothing at all and arguments which we iudg of no force Puritans as Archbishop Bancroft writeth of them take to be so vrgent that if euery hayre of their head were a seuerall life they wold giue them all in the cause This controuersy therfore whose reasons are demonstratiue and whose are not is the greatest of all others nor is there any way to decide it in our churches besides the sword of the temporall Prince Princes therfore for conseruation of peace must keep the spirit in awe practising power infallible in deedes which they dare not challenge in wordes This is the cause of the secret emnity betweene power of Kings and feruour of our Ghospell The Prince can neuer be assured of our Gospellers by the Principles of their Religion that their zeale to the Truth will not trouble the peace of his Kingdome nor Ghospellers of the Prince that his loue of temporall peace will not compell them to trust to his deceaueable definitions Whence it is manifest that so longe as the one shal be zealons and feruent to follow and preach what by light of the spirit they conceaue to be in Sc●ipture occasions cannot be wanting to the other that will force him to vse his power to curbe their liberty Which power so long as he shal vsurpe so long as he will be Prince and Protestant he must needes vsurpe let him neuer expect that Ghospellers can loue his gouernment though they may flatter in outward shew Those men had no doubt the pure spirit of our Ghospell who professed that except they might haue the re●ormation they desired they would neuer be subiect to mortall man Looke vpon the first erecting of our Religion in Germany France Flanders Swe●eland Denmarke and Scotland you shall find that the Ghospell went not so fast vp but Kings and their authority went as fast downe What Bullenger writeth of Anabaptist● was the true course of our Reformers They began with Bishops pulling them from their seates they ended with Kings casting them frō their Thrones Books haue been written of this argument by no Papists that shew their practises and doctrines to be in the highest degree iniurious to Kings Luthers inuectiues I omitt not to pollute your eares Caluin is more modest yet so bould with Kinges as to write that when they resist the Ghospell they are not to be obeyed but rather we ought to s●it it in their faces This is nothing to that which Hottomā Beza Goodman Knox Vrsinus Buchanan to forbeare the naming of others innumerable haue writtē wherby they make Maiesty subiect to the peoples pleasure no more sure of his state then wethercocks that must turn● with the wind Vt sumat vt ponat secures Arbitrio popularis aurae What thinke you of these their propositions following Yf Princes be tyrants against God and his Truth their subiects are freed from their oath o● Allegiance The people are greate● then the King of greater authority The people haue the same power o●uer the King that the King hath oue● any one person The people haue right to bestow the Crown at their pleasure As the patient may choose the phisitiā he like●● best reiect him at his pleasure so the people in whose free choice at the beginning it was to be vnder kings or no may when they be weary of their bad gouernment cast him from his Office into prison into irons put him to death and set whome they please to gouerne in his place Kings haue their authority from the people and the people may take it away againe as men may reuoke their letters of Attorney Yf kings without feare transgresse Gods Lawes they ought no more to be taken as magistrats but be examined accused condemned and punished as priuate transgressors When magistrats do not their duties God giueth the sword into the people● hand from ●e which no person King Queene 〈◊〉 Emperor is exempt being Idolater 〈◊〉 must dye the death These and the ●●ke positions haue been inuented by ●●e zealous professors of our Religion ●he same or worse were renewed and ●ttered by the feruerous reformers that ●roue for discipline in Queene Eliz. ●ayes that as a worthy prelat writes All the Popi●● traitors that hither●o haue written and all the Gene●ian Scottish Reformers come not neere ●hem for malicious and spiteful taunts ●or rayling and bitter tearmes for dis●aineful and contemptuous speaches ●gainst Prince Bishops Counsailors ●ll other that stand in their way Their ●ecret practises to set vp by som meane ●r other sweete or violent the said ●isciplin haue neuer been interrupted ●r remitted as he doth particular●y relate beginning at the yeere 1560. ●o the yeere 1591. when was practised ●hat most blasphemous and barbarous ●reason of their counterfait Iesus-Christ Hacket and his two Prophets ●f mercy and vengeance who would ●aue planted the discipline by depriuing the Queene and murthering th● nobles that stood against it of
in the hands of the Consul● swore allegiance fealty to the com●monwealth and when he made th● Pretor to gouerne in his name according to the ceremony deliuering the naked sword sayd to him Vse this sword for me if I gouerne iustly i● otherwise vse it against me By wh●ch resignation both of state and life into the Common-wealthes hands he more secured them both then any enforced Oath that he held the Crowne from God only could haue done Philanax You haue shewed the first proposition of Theodidact to be neyther a solid ground of soueraignty nor a doctrin apt to nourish in subiects minds affection to their Kings I desire you wold passe to the examination of the second that Kings haue no Superior that may call him to account or pun●sh him but God alone Aristobulus Heere Theodidact goeth forward in building the soueraignty of Kings ●ither vpon manifest falshood or tot●ering vncertaineties That the King ●ath no superior but God alone that ●ay punish him all learned men ge●erally Papists Puritans Pro●estants ●eny Philanax I do much wonder that you say Protestants ●each th●t the Kinge may ●e sentenced and punished by any man ●pon earth I thinke you meane Puri●ans not our Protestants that pro●esse to follow the Religion established ●y Parlament Aristobulus I meane Protestants that are ene●ies of Puritans and conformable to ●he state and to increase your wondring I add that howsoeuer the word Supreme Gouernour and Head of the Church go currant in England yet in ●ense our Deuines giue our Kinge no greater authority in causes Ecclesiasticall then Papists do I desire not to be ●eleeued vnlesse I make what I haue ●ayd euident by the testimonies of them that haue lately written abo●● this argument First concerning the ver● title they say the King hath no any spirituall Ecclesiasticall power a● a●l his power sayth doctor Morton no● Bishop of Chester is but corporall and ca● go no ●urther then the body He hath sayt● M. Burhill no iurisdiction in the Church ey●ther ●or the inward o● outward Court his powe● is meere temporall and laicall nor in it sel● spirituall though the matter and obiect there●● be spirituall such power and no greater sayt● M. Richard Tomson then Iewes Infidel● and Turkes haue ouer the Christian Churc● within their dominions Secondly concerning Controuersies of fayth the Deane of Lichfiel● doctor Tooker disclaymeth as an im●pudent slaunder that the Church o● England holdes the King to be their prima● or head or iudge of Controuersies about fait● and Religion To the Apostles Christ gaue powe● to gather Councells and to define solemnly th● Churches doubts The sentence of Councell sayth M. Richard Harris hath without th● King the force of an ecclesiasticall law the King addes thereunto corporall penalty M. Morton ●●yth that Imperiall and Kingly authority in ●●irituall causes reacheth no further then as it ●●longeth to outward preseruation not to the ●ersonall administration of them neyther doth ●●e King challenge nor subiects condescend vnto ●ore But most cleerly M. Barlow late ●ishop of Lincoln● The King sayth he in ●ontrouersies about fayth hath not iu●icium definitium sentence d●finitiue to ●●scerne what is sound in ●●●inity but when the ●hurch hath determined matters of fayth he ●ath iudicium executiuum sentence exe●utiue to commaund the professing therof ●ithin his Kingdomes And is not this the very doctrine ●f Papists and that doctrine which ●●rmerly our Arch-bishop Bancro●t re●ected with great scorne as disgrace●ull to Kings making them but Car●●fices Ecclesiae the executioners of the Churches will and pleasure Thirdly concerning the offices of ●his power they teach the King hath no ●ower to vse any censure or to cast any out of ●he Church by sentence but his office is to punish ●hem with corporall chastisement on whom Bishops haue laid their censures The King doth ●ot make or vnmake Bishops they are made by the Bishops of the Kingdone as by them they a●● desposed and vnmade The King hath right t● name and present persons to benefices as other lay men of lower conditiō haue but benefices ei●ther with cure or without cure great or little he neither doth nor euer did bestow much lesse the ecclesiasticall dignities as the Bishopricks Arch-Bishopricks of his Kingdome Fourthly concerning the Kings sudordination to Bishops Doctor Barlow highly commendeth the saying of Ambrose Bishops in matters concerning faith are to iudge of Emperors not Emperors of Bishops The Deane of Lich●eild saith that the King is and with Valentinian Emperor doth acknowledge himselfe the sonne and p●pill of the Church and the scholler of the Bishops What more do papists require Can he then iudg teach his Fathers Iudges and Maisters in those thinges wherein he is their sonne pupill and scholler Finally M. Burhill saith that the King sup●eme gouernour of the Church may by his Bishops be cast out of the Church VVhat Ambrose did lawfully to Theodosius our Bishops may do lawfully to the King ●or the like offence And what did Ambrose to Theodosius He cast him by sentence out of the Church he stood ready to keepe him out by force and called him Ty●ant ●o his face he forced him to e●act a temporall law concerning the ●xecution of the sentence in matter of ●ife and death he commanded him out of the quire or the place of Priests sent him into the body of the Church to pray with laymen And may the Bishop of Canterb●●y lay the same punishments on his M●iesty yea saith the Bishop of Ely perchaunce the Pope may excōmunicate the Kinge depriue him of the common goods of the Church Doe you see to how many censures Protestants make the King subiect Truly I see not how any Religiō doth or can make Kings more absolute and subiect to fewer Superiors then Papists doe The Puritan will haue them subiect to the Pastor of euery parishe that hath a Consistory as our Bishop Bancro●t sayth They banish one Pope and admit a thousand The Protestant makes them obnoxius to the censure of Bishops without any restraynt wheras the Romanists out of respect to the Maiesty of Kings reserue the power of censuring them ●o the supreame Pastor But to returne to Theodidact you se● he keepeth his custome to ground al●legiance due to Kings vpon do●ctrines eyther questionable or 〈◊〉 denyed of all sides his second propo●sition that the Kinge is free from al● punishment that mā may inflict bein● rather more vncertaine then hi● first that Kings h●●e their power only fro● God Philanax It seemeth by your discourse tha● Theodidact makes Kinges more absolu●●● then other Protestants doe teacheth against them that the King may no● be excommunicated or cast out of th● Church For he sayth that the Kinge i● free from all punishment that man can inflict excommunication without doubt is a great punishment Ministers with●out question are men Aristobulus It is hard to say what Theodida●●
so longe as the Common-wealth doth endure the tyrant not depriue him by publick sentēce so long priuate men must endure him must obey him willingly for conscience sake Thus the Fathers cited by Theodidact persuaded Christians to ob●y the ancient persecuting Emperors that were tyrants Thus S. Peter as also Theodidact largely vrgeth commaunded the beleeuing Iewe● to obey Claudius a bloudy and barbarous Emperour which must be vnderstood in things not against iustice and religion so long as the tyranous E●perour should be tolerated by the Cōmonwealth For who will thi●ke that S. Peter by that his exhortation meant that they should obey Claudius further then for the time he shold be admitted as lawfull Prince who can wi●h any probability im●gine that S. Peter by that sentence decided the controuersy betwene the Rom●n Emperour the Senate about the right of making and deposing Emperours and that he defined in behalfe of ●he Emperour that he might no● be deposed by the Sen●te that in case of deposition Christians were still to obey the depriued not the new erected magistrate I cānot thinke S. Peter dyd desire that Christians in those times shold busy their heads with these speculations but simply for conscience sake obey the present Prince they foūd allowed in the state wherin ●hey liued so long as he was permitted to rule It would goe hard with Kings if their condition were like the Emperour seeing the greatest patrō● of Kings dare not deny what Emperors themselues haue acknowledged that they may be deposed by the Senate or Peeres of the Empire So that these exhortations of Apostles and Fathers to obey tyranous Princes for the time they be tolerated by the Common-wealth which Theodidact vrgeth so diffusely come short of prouing that Princes are in all cases indeposable Fourthly the Papists hold that the sentence of deposition must not only be giuen by a publick magistrate but allso by the whole magistracy and nobility of the Commonwealth or by the far greater part thereof And for this cause they say that neither Iulian the Apostata nor Constantius nor Valens Arian Emperors were deposed which Theodidact exaggerateth as an argument of great momēt to proue that Christiās cā vse no forcible resistāce against persecuting Princes But the cause why these hereticall Em●erours were not deposed cannot be proued to haue byn want of authority in the Church but because there wāted at that time meanes to vnite the whole Empire in the busines of deposing hereticall Emperours For from the time of Constantine to the sack of Rome by Alaricus heat●ens and infidells did abound through the whole Romane Empire many of them bearing chief offices euen in the Senat who could not be brought nor commaunded to concurre against Emperours for their heresy or apostacy so that the attempts of Catholiks to depose them could then haue had no other successe but faction and ciuill warre Nor could the sentence of the supreme pastor vnite them in that enterprize seeing a great part of the Empire were Infidells as hath been said and so not the Popes subi●cts But when the Commonwealth consisteth of only Christians then heresy and apostacy of the Prince ioyned with persecution ought to breed in them all a generall dislike thereof the sentence of their spirituall Pastor challengeth like●ise vniuersal obedi●nce so that if factiōs grow amongest them the fault is not in the cause which is common to all nor in the sentence which b●ndeth them all but in themselues that are neither zealou● in their Religion nor obedient to th● Church He that shall consider wha● orthodoxe Fathers haue written against Constantius the Arian will soon● perceaue that the Bishops of the primitiue Church were sharpe censurer● of hereticall Princes They rebuke him for gathering together places o● Scripture that commaund that he b● honored and obeyed omitting other testimonies that giue liberty to resist and bind him to obey his spirituall Pastors They tell him in playn● tearmes they might deale with him as the Machabees did with Antiochus whō they resisted his armies they ouerthrew cast him from the Kingdome of Iury. I tell thee Constan●ius saith one of those Fathers hadst thou been in the hands of Ma●tathias that zealous priest so wicked a persecutor as thou art he would haue killed thee Thus bouldy writeth that Bishop which shewes ●hat the reasō why Ariā Emperors in those dayes were not deposed was not want of iust desert in the Princes nor of power in the Church but because the sētence would not conioyne the whole Commonwealth being then mixed of heathens Christians in the execution thereof so that the sentence could not be lawfully executed without the asistance of some absolute temporall Prince And this assistance the primitiue Church in those dayes did not neglect to craue of Constantine the most pious Christian Emperour who tooke vpon him the protection of Catholike Bishops that were banished by his Arian Brother Constantius to whome he sent word that vnlesse he would restore them Hostem se illi fu●urum nec quicquam nisi bellum expectandum that he would become his enimie and that he should expect nothing from him but warre And as for Iulian the Apostata I do fearefully relate what they write For wheras by some it had byn giuen out that he was by a Christian souldier depriued both of Empire life they magnify the stroke whosoeuer were the Author thereof And some Christian historiās graunt that it is not incredible that some Christian souldyer killed Iulian and defend the fact as most glorious seeing say they not only Pagans but all men of what religion soeuer euē to our age haue allwaies exalted them that haue taken away tyrants venturing their liues for the liberty of their kindred and countrey how much more glorious is it to do this for God and Religion These sayings and the like may be found in the writings of the Auncients which I do not bring as approuing them yea this last of priuate vndertaking against Emperours I vtterly mislike But this sheweth what I pretend that it were better wholly to relinquish the discussion of this controuersy then to prouoke men to produce these authorities and that they be not wise or not friends of the King that will needes be stirring in this busines Fiftly Papists teach that a Christian Commonwealth may not proceed against their Christian Prince though he be a tyrant without the aduise an● consent of the supreme Pa●stor of their soules This they require not only in the case o● heresy and Apostacy but also when subiects are moued against them for tyranous oppression of their liues and temporall state And their reason is because deposition beeing an affaire of singuler moment● ought to be done wi●h the grea●est aduise and deliberation that may be Nor is it secure to commit the cause to the sole Commonwealth least the people out of passion the Nobles out of
ambition be ouerforward to proceed against Prince● So that in my opinion Papists take a most mature course and remoue the life of Kings from the temerity of vulgar affections one degree further then any other religion whatsoeuer And seeing mankind with vniuersall consent seeme to allow that some meanes may be vsed for the commonwealths safety against incorrigible and deplored tyrants I do not see that humane wisdome could haue inuented a proceeding more discreet and moderate then this of Papists who that a Prince may be deposed lawfully require First cryme● manifest that can no wayes be excused secondly crymes exorbitant tending to the euident ouerthrow of the whole Kingdome thirdly cryme● with malice incorrigible leauing no hope of amendment fourthly the publicke and vuiuersall agrement of magistrates and Nobles of the Common-wealth Fiftly that the case be proposed and the deposition approued by their supreme Pastor and his Counsell abroad Finally to preuent popular rashnes they further add that the comonwealth in the execution of the sentence must proceed per modum defensionis non per modum punitionis by way of their owne defence not by way of punishing their Prince And in this their defence they must obserue moderamen inculpatae tutelae that is they must do no more then is precisely necessary for their own defence Wherfore they may not hauing deposed their Prince arraigne him as Puritans teach that being needlesse for their owne safety The King deposed still retaynes a certaine remote right to the Crowne as it were a marke or politike character that discerneth him from meere subiects by reason whereof if he repent of his Apostacy and giue the Commonwealth good security that being againe restored to gouernment he wil rule moderately the Commonwealth may not by taking way his life depriue him of his possibility Philanax Your discourse giueth me great content to see that Papists in their doctrine prouide so carefully for the security of Princes That a King be deposed lawfully they require such a generall consent both domesticall and forraine that it seemes scarce possible that so many should conspire in passion or that any Prince by this doctrine loose his Kingdome that is either friended abroad or beloued at home For if the motion to depose the Prince arise from the Commonwealth the last decision thereof is referred to the Pope and his Counsell that are forrayners and not interessed in the Commonwealthes quarrell Yf the treaty of depo●ition begin from the Pope the execution must passe through the hands of the Peeres of the Realme spirituall temporall whose loue to their Prince will resist the Popes sentence if they find the motiue either openly vniust as grounded vpon temporall pretences or not cleerly and apparantly iust as is required in a point of so many consequences Nor do there want examples of Catholicke Kingdomes that haue stood for their Kings when they thought that Popes were moued with humane respects yea I haue noted in the histories I haue perused and much wondred thereat Protestants haue beene more forward and heady to follow the sentence of some Ministers or consistory against their Prince then haue Papists beene in obeying the Popes censures for the deposition of their King that hardly can you name any sentence of deposition that hath been executed and the Prince turned from his Crowne by his Catholike subiects Which difference seeing it cannot spring from any greater reuerence which Protestāts b●a●e to their spirituall gouernours for it is known they do not so much esteeme their Ministers as the Papists do their Priests it must proceed from this cause that Papists loyall loue to their Prince doth somewhat allay their prompt obedience to the Pope when betweene him and their Prince contentions happen But you haue so discouered the weaknes of Theodidacts arguments that I haue more cause to feare treason then expect reason in his discourses I should haue byn glad if the doctrine that makes Kings in all cases indeposable could haue byn proued by solid and inuincible arguments Aristobulus How solide and inuincible Theodidacts arguments are you may giue a ghesse by this one which he vrgeth very ●arnestly that Christians may not depose Tyrants though neuer so cruell enemies of their Religion because Christ commaundeth thē to loue their enemies and per●●cutors And verily I could smile to see Theodidact seriously dilate vpon the precept to loue enemies VVe must sayth be loue them with our harts blesse and pray for them with our tongues and do good to them by our actions Yf these duties be to be performed twards priuate men that are our enemies how much more to publicke persons and Potentats of the earth Thus he and much more shewing great want of iudgment thus to trifle in so serious an argument For the precept to loue our enemies to bestow benefits on them vrgeth the Commonwealth to depose tyrants rather then to the cōtrary For what greater benefit can Christian charity bestow on tyrants that run headlong to euerlasting perdition then to remoue them from gouernment from the world occasions of synne Without doubt the precept of Charity would bind the Commonwea●th to ●tay the damnatiō of tyrants by deposing thē did Iustice permit them that are not Superiours to bestow benefits deeds of charity vpon others against their wil. The truth is that this were against Iustice though not against Charity to take by force the scepter from a Prince who abuseth the same only to his owne damnatiō without endaungering the Commonwealth But if he cōmit synns that tend to the destruction of the state if saith the Chancellour of Paris the great Patron of royall imunity if the Prince doth manifestly obstinatly really vniustly persecute his subiects thē that Principle of the law of nature taks place violence may be repelled with violence Thus much Gerson and much more which I willingly pretermit nor would I haue said so much but only to shew that it were best not to handle these questiō● specially in vulgar Treatises and that you may see Theodidacts fraude who loadeth on Kings many new titles that are not so glorious as odious which doe not so much adorne as oppresse and weigh downe Kings by laying vpon them the heauy burthen of popular enuy Such is his fourth proposition which remaynes to be examined that there is no remedy besides teares and prayers that may be law●ully vsed for the defence of the Church against the King though he shold be so tyrannous and prophane as to oppresse the whole Church and vtterly to extinguish the light of Christian Religion Philanax The very sound of this proposition offendeth a Christian ●are nor can I thinke it is gratefull to his Maiesty who would I dare say wish himselfe dead a thousand times rather then such a case shold really happē that he shold extinguish the light of Religion so litle delight he takes that men should adore his Royall Dignity vested in these imaginary impieties Nor