of those fathers concerning the force of Baptisme séeth not that they geue to such a childe remission of sinnes and therefore also liuerie from death therefore againe life euerlasting the kingdome of God Or let any man bring me one place of those Doctors speaking to this case of a child I say baptized but not communicated holding the contrarie For betwéen them the Pelagians that was not the case nor the question as I haue shewed but they brought in the Eucharist onely to proue that Baptisme is necessarie to the euerlasting life of children All which by this one place of S. Augustines will be euident euen for your owne purpose also it is plainer then the two places that your selfe alleage Augu. De pec mer. rem li. 1. ca. 20. If a child saith Augustine hauing receaued baptisme depart out of this life soluto reatu cui originaliter erat obnaxius c. Seeing the guilt is loosed to the which he was bond by birth he shal be perfite in that light which with the presence of the Creator doth lighten such as are iustified Peccata enim sola separant inter Deū homines for nothing but sinnes maketh separation betwene God and men and sinnes are loosed by the grace of Christ Then a litle after of the Pelagiās he saith They would geue to children vnbaptised saluation and life euerlasting for cause of their innocencie but shutte them from the kingdome of heauen because they are not Baptized For they haue forsooth a starting a lurking hole because our Lord said not If one be not regenerate of water and the spirit non habebit vitam he shall not haue life but he said non intrabit in Regnum Dei he shall not enter into the kingdome of God Nam si illud dixisset for if he had said that quoth they it had bene so playne that no doubt could haue risen therof How then doth S. Augustine ioyne issue with them herevpon Auferatur ergo iam dubitatio c. Say you so Now then away with doubting let vs heare our Lord not the suspitions coniectures of mortal men Why haue you a plaine word of our Lordes owne mouth for the necessitie of Baptisme also to life euerlasting Dominū audiamus inquam non quidem hoc de Sacramento lanacri dicentem Let vs heare our Lorde I say I graunt he speaketh it not of the Sacracrament of Baptisme sed de Sacramento sanctae c. but of the Sacrament of his holy table quo nemo rite nisi c. And yet neuerthelesse it serueth well to our question of Baptisme because no man commeth lawfully to that table vnlesse he be Baptized Then he bringeth forth the place Except yee eate c. you shall not haue life in you And so he triumpheth saying What seeke we further what can they answere to this if they will not be obstinate By and by he declareth though it were said of baptisme Qui non renatus fuerit He that is not regenerate and here it is not saide likewise He that doth not eate but If you doe not eate as though he spoke to men of vnderstandyng and not to Infantes yet that this place must needes pertaine also to Infantes And so it is euident that although he vnderstande the place of the Sacrament and of Infantes yet he bringeth it not to proue the necessitie of that Sacrament to Infantes but the necessitie of Baptisme to Infantes Marie perceiuing that he might be mistaken of his Reader he doth commonly though it néeded not against the Pelagians insinuate most vigilantly by the waye that in Baptisme it selfe they receyue also the other Sacrament not sacramentally but spiritually that is Augu◠pec m◠3. cap. the effect of the other Sacrament Quoniam nihil agitur aliud cum paruuli baptizantur nisi vt incorporentur Ecclesiae id est Christi Corpori membrisue socientur Because when Infantes are Baptized it is for no other cause but that they maye bee incorporated to the Churche that is to saye ioyned to the bodye and members of Christ See D◠len d◠cha ◠31. pa◠It is so therefore with children by Baptisme as it is with older people by an earnest desyre to the Eucharist for as these haue Votum explicitum an expresse desyre to it so they haue Votum implicitum a close desyre to it and that serueth them both to obtayne the effecte thereof though not in so great measure as if they receyued it also sacramently Neuerthelesse there may be iust causes to keepe it from children generally as there are iuste causes to keepe it sometyme yea at Easter also from some of the older sorte But if antiquitie dyd not counte it necessarye for chyldren at least wyse they gaue it you wyll saye to children and that is contrary to Probet semet ipsum homo 1. Co◠let a man examyne hym selfe before he receyue it Why syr is there anye feare least chyldren that are Baptized come to it vnworthyly that is beyng in mortall synne hath any adultus by penance a better warrant to presume vnto it then a childe by Baptisme Knowe you not howe S. Augustine and the whole Church holdeth that in Baptisme a childe repenteth and beléeueth by others euē so he there also examineth himselfe by others As other repenting and other beléeuing so likewise other examining is not necessarie for a child though for so great a sacrament it be more conuenient And so both the Churche now doth well not to Communicate children they also afore did not ill who did Communicate them who yet were not so many as Fulke doth make them We heard erewhile what the Tridentine Fathers said Falsification by adding Aliquando in quibusdam locis that maner was sometime in some places The third part Concerning the errors that he laieth to the Church of later times and not of old And thus much of the second sorte of errors laid by you to the auncient true Church and not also to the Churche of these later times which you take not to be the true Church Now therefore as it followeth let vs heare and examine the third last sorte of errors such as you lay to this Church of later times and not also to the primitiue Church as you call it meaning the first .600 yeares Which errors wil be so few so light in respect of those which he hath already charged the true Church withall specialy when they are duely scanned Note you that vvould the true Church that it may be both a sure confirmation to the Catholikes and a iust motiue to all others to embrace the Church of this time no lesse then of olde time considering that it is no lesse yea much more vnreproueable of the aduersarie as in déede also of good reason it must so be because more time hath geuen to the Holy Ghost and stil doth geue more occasions to define and declare many pointes that were
body before the generall Resurrection If that be so manifest what els was it then but the rest of his soule that Martha would haue Christ to pray for when she saide thus vnto him But also now I know that whatsoeuer things thou shalt aske of God God will graunt thee To whiche purpose also some auncient writers expound that place But to alleage places is not my intent here it is onely to answere your allegations And now hauing done with all your negatiues we are come to your affirmatiues ij Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmatiue First about certayne foundations of Purgatory and prayer for the dead For breuitie to speake ioyntly of Purgatory and of relieuing the soules that be there your affirmatiue allegations against both are leuied by you partly at the foundation of them partly at the two them selues And the foundations béeing diuerse you haue both seuerall shot agaynst the seuerals and also one common shot against all or many of them in common To eche sorte I shall with the helpe of God whose cause it is make answere most easily and most truely The distinction of Veniall and Mortall sinne And first D. Allen declareth out of the Doctors Pur. 126.127.128 what sinnes may be purged in Purgatory to wit not onely such as are Veniall of their owne nature but also suche as are mortall of their owne nature so that they were in Gods Church remitted afore Fulke sayth that This is manifestly ouerthrowen by the worde of God euen from the foundations For the foundation of this doctrine is the distinction of veniall and mortall sinnes Not so syr the doctrine is that mortall sinnes by the Churches remission become as veniall and you graunt it your self saying All sinnes except certayne of which your good exceptions I shall say more anone by Gods mercy are pardonable or veniall Thus you graunt the doctrine and yet you graunt not the foresaid distinction therfore the distinction is not the foundation of that doctrine but the doctrine may stand well without it But yet for other causes we must be content to sée what you alleage against the distinction The worde of God playnely determineth that euery sinne is mortall deserueth eternall death seeme it neuer so small So you say and you alleage thrée places for it The first Cursed is euery one that abideth not in all thinges that are written in the Lawe to fulfill them Deut. 27. I syr but find you in the Scripture no other Curse that is to say payne for sinne but eternall death Is it not written Cursed is euery one that hangeth on tree yet hāging on trée or crucifying Deut. 21. Gal. 3. is not eternall death Agayne euery one in that saying is meant by the Apostles exposition not of Christians but of them onely whiche trust in the lawe for it selfe who in déede can neuer attayne to no remission neither of their mortall nor of their veniall sinnes But we that holde of Christ and of his spirite are in case alwayes to receiue remission whensoeuer we sinne venially 1. Ioan. 1.3 for so we can But we can not sinne mortally holding I say Christ and his spirite And therefore if we do sinne mortally at any time depriuing our selues thereby of Christes spirite the remedie is to séeke for the same agayne by the Sacrament of penaunce and then are we in good case agayne as before Your other two places are these The soule that sinneth shall dye Ezech. 18. and The rewarde of sinne is death Rom. 6. S. Iames giueth vs the meaning of these suche like places where he saith Peccatum verò cum consummatum fuerit generat mortem Iac. 1. Sinne when it is consummate gendreth death But not so soone as it is gendred and yet it is sinne as soone as it is gendred Therefore some sinne there is which yet gendreth not death Marke the order Deinde concupiscentia cum conceperit parit peccatum peccatum verò cum consummatū fuerit generat mortem First commeth the temptation of our concupiscence as it were of a lewde woman Secondly concupiscence when she hath conceiued by obteining some light consent beareth sinne venial sinne Mary thirdly Sinne when it is consummate by our full and perfect consent yéelded vnto it gendreth or bringeth foorth death if the matter be of weight accordingly For els that the lightnes of the matter as an idle worde bringeth not death he sufficiently signifieth in saying that in a weightie matter the lightnes or imperfection of consent doth it not Whether after sinne remitted payne may remayne Now to another foundation to wit That culpa the fault both in Venial and in Mortal sinne may be forgiuen of God and of his Church and yet some payne though not eternall be owing for it sometime so that the same must in such case be in this life eyther payde or pardoned or els in Purgatory it wil be exacted Pur. 45. This is against Ezechiel saith Fulke What time soeuer a man doth truely repent the Lord doth put al his sinnes out of his remembraunce You might haue done well to quote the place where Ezechiel so saith ad verbum The trueth is that in a moment the repentaunce may be so great that there is no more remembraunce at all But Ezechiel if you meane the 18. Chapter speaketh of a longer time so that The wicked man must repent him of all his sinnes and keepe all Gods commaundementes and do right and iustice and then vita viuit non morietur when the day commeth to rewarde euery one according to his workes here He shall liue not dye All his iniquities that he worked I will not remember saith God for his iustice that he wrought he shall liue For otherwise who knoweth not those voyces Psal 24.78 Lord remember not the sinnes of my youth and Lord remember not our old sinnes Are they not the words of men which had already repented them acknowledging neuerthelesse that God may yet remember them Againe you say It is against Dauid Pur. 45.46 Psal 102. The Lord hath remoued our sinnes from vs as farre as the east is from the west Who may not say this for béeing remoued frō eternall damnation although he haue yet to abide neuer so much temporall punishment Howbeit those words as the whole Psalme are not spokē of the time of our first receiuing againe into the fauour of God by absolution but to magnifie his mercy in our finall restitution which shal be at the later day For which cause the Church very aptly singeth that Psalme vpon the feast of Christes Ascention Also out of the New Testament you say The Publicane Pur. 43. the Prodigall childe the Debters all clearely remitted do playnely proue that God frely forgiueth iustifieth rewardeth the penitent sinners without exacting any punishment of them for answering of the debt satisfying for the sinnes abusing his fatherly clemēcie Luk. 7.15.18 You speake here very indefinitely as though God
he say the contrarie For these be his wordes That forgiuenes of his sinnes was graunted that he might not be stopped from receiuing life euerlasting and yet the effect of that same threatening followed that his godlines mighte in that humilitie be exercised and proued not onely but also as he saide in another place that he might thereby be beaten temporally for his deserts though he expresse not this cause also in this place for that he had here to answere the Pelagians and shewe some cause why death if it came onely by sinne by originall sinne remaineth still vpon all men euen them also whose originall sinnes are so fully forgiuen in Baptisme that they owe nothing neither eternally neither temporally for them Pur. 43. But for a slat conclusion contradictory to M. Allens assertion I will vse you say the very words of Chrysostome in the 8. Hom. vpon the Epistle to the Rom. Vbi veniâ— ibi nulla erit poena Where there is forgiuenes there is no punishment One may sée by this that you would vse the Doctors words as couragiously as we do if they were on your side as they be on ours But it cooleth your courage because you are faine to coÌ„fesse them in many things to be playne against you and not able neither to mainteine that they be with you when you pretende they be As here S. Chrysostome speaketh of the forgiuenes geuen in Baptisme to the Iew passing from the wrath of the Lawe to the grace of Christ But our assertion speketh of the forgiuenes geuen in the Sacrament of penance to the Christian that hath shamefully dishonored the grace of Christ If such be contradictories with you then as your Diuinitie is new so is your Logicke also new Satisfaction Pur. 87. Against the third you alleage Chrysostome Ambrose but how fondly the very words that you alleage though we seeke no further Chryso de compun cordis li. 1. in fine will declare Non requirit Deus ciliciorum pondus c. God requireth not the burden of shirtes of heare saith Chrysostome nor to be shut vp in the straites of a litle Cell neque iubet neither doth he commaunde vs to sit in obscure darke Caues this only it is which is required of vs that we alwayes remember and â—count our sinnes c. He there reproueth them that 〈…〉 â—rie mourning for their owne soules quasi quidum 〈◊〉 labor sit as if it were a labour intolerable Therefore he saith that God doth not commaund as necessarie that 〈…〉 take him selfe to the straite â—mourning of Monkes 〈…〉 And 〈◊〉 forsooth do tell vs therupon that Chrysostome â—f any man had 〈…〉 â—ther beleeue him speaking of such kind of wo◠〈…〉 his fellowes count to be the chiefe works of pâ—n 〈…〉 that they serue not for satisfaction for our sinnes vnto God 〈…〉 againe Therfore by Chrysostomes iudgement that 〈…〉 satisfaction of Gods righteousnes nor any obedience of Gods commaundement hath banished the Heremites 〈…〉 Anachoretes and cloyed the world with cloysterers but the superstitious and slauish feare of Purgatorie and the blasphemous presumptuous pride of mens merites Thus you take on as it were vpon S. Chrysostomes saying not considering that Demetrius was a Monke to whom he there writeth commending 〈◊〉 singulerly for the very same works of penance 〈…〉 nor that Chrysostome also him selfe was a Monke and that by your owne coÌ„fession and wrote a booke which is extant Aduersus vituperatores vitae Monasticae Against the dispraysers of the Monasticall life that is euen against you also for saying as you do in this place Againe you say Pur. 8â— Aâ— in 〈◊〉 22. li. 1â— What S. Ambrose thinketh of that kind of satisfaction whereof M. Allen speaketh is plaine by those words which he vttereth of Peter Lachrymas eius lego satisfactionem non lego I reade of his teares I reade not of his satisfaction He vttereth these words also there immediatly before Non inuenio quid dixerit inuenio quod fleuerit I find not what he said I find that he wept Whatsoeuer you gather hereof he that readeth the place must néedes gather the contrarie so wit that he thinketh Confession necessarie and satisfaction necessarie but that teares are both a special kind of coÌ„fession for Lachrymae crimen sine offensione verecundiae coÌ„â—tentur Teares confesse the crime without touch of shamfastnes quod voce pudor est consiterâ— that to confesse with voyce is a shamefast thing and also a speciall kind of Satisfaction forLachrymae veniam Teares though they do not aske pardon they obteine it Which yet againe he saith not as though onely teares woulde serue but Peteâ— opened not his mouth least so quicke requesting of pardon might more offend First we must weepe and then request But a playne place to know what S. Ambrose thought of Penance and Satisfaction is his whole booke To the Virgin that had broken her vow and namely these words Ambro. ad virg lapsaÌ„ ca. 8. Pur. 84. Grande sâ—elus grandem habet necessariam satisfactionem For a passing great crime is necessarie a passing great satisfaction Which words import none other thing you say but that an haynous offence must be earnestly bewayled if repentance be not counterfaited As though he there doubted lest her repentance were counterfaite and not earnest saying yet vnto her Tu quae iam ingressa es agonem poenitentiae Thou who art already entred into the or exercise field of penance with muche more to the same effect declaring I say that he tooke her penance to be vnfaigned as béeing well begon but yet besides that her whole life is litle enough to make iust satisfaction vnto God Pardons Wherein he is so vehement that you come agayne on the other side touching our fourth Article and pretende by the same word of his that the Church can not pardon the penance or satisfaction which sinners do owe. Where I say nothing how you ouerthrow your owne ignorant imagination that the old Canonicall satisfaction was onely to satisfie the Church ur 8 5. and not to satisfie Gods iustice As though not only the Church but also euery priuate man may not pardon such kind of satisfaction as the sinner oweth to him and hold himselfe contented with as litle as he list Therfore to omit this He assureth her you say as Cyprian in his Sermon de Lapsis doth the fallen men of his time that forgiuenes of sinnes is proper vnto God onely and followeth not of necessitie the sentence of men but the sentence of men ought to follow the iudgement of God Pur. 73. Alluding belike to the place where somewhat afore you alleaged Cyprian gathered of his words that not onely he plainly denieth that absolute soueraigne authority of men which M. Allen affirmeth but also declareth what he meaneth by satisfaction of God to wit inwarde and hartie conuersion The two places in déede are like although the fall of that
allow any dispensation in it be it otherwise neuer so iust As for any Law of Nature you can alleage none against the Churches dispensations no otherwise then against Gods owne dispensations in the time of the old Testament yea if you remember your selfe well they were allowed then some of them at the least by law also and not only by dispensation sometimes which you meane now to be against the Law of Nature Béeing so many wayes ignoraunt in Gods Lawe it is lesse meruaile that you be ignoraunt in the Churches Lawe and agayne in the Churches Diuinitie so that in one place you make it a thing certayne Pur. 35. that the Pope geueth his pardons by the Sacrament of penance As though the Pope beyng at Rome myght be minister of a Sacrament to one in England You might as well thinke that he doth excommunicate by the Sacrament of penance So great a Doctor doth not know that the power of binding and loosing is exercised many other wayes besides that Sacrament Yea not onely in our diuinitie but also in your owne you be so ignoraunt Pur. 13. that you wonder that a Catholike should say that God sometime punisheth sinne with sinne which is a position common to be séen in all Catholike Doctors Thom. 1.2 q. 87. ar 2. complaine that when you say but halfe so much we charge you to make God the Author of sinne Why is not that a common position and long discourses vpō it in your masters bookes that God is the author of sinne Cal. Insti li ca. 14. num 17.18 Melanct. in Epist ad Rom. If you be ashamed thereof and therefore doe say not as an euill author but as a righteous iudge I doe not reprehend you But if you say it of ignoraunce in your owne Scholes learning you must know that your Masters hold it of all sinnes alike as well of that sinne which goeth first in any man as of that sinne which commeth after in him and is sometime the punishment of the former sinne And therefore they holde it of God otherwise then as of a righteous iudge Ergo by your owne diuision as of an euill author For the difference betwéene them and vs is this They denie our Fréewill and make God to worke all sinne in vs in the same sort as he worketh all good in vs to wit per se willing appointing and predestinating vs to sinne euen no lesse then he which leadeth a blind man to fall But we say no more but that when a man hath sinned against him mortally God taketh away his inward grace and sometime also his outward assistance more or lesse according to his most iust will So as if a blinde mans guide should for his desert as because he wil néedes fall when he might stand forsake him either quite or for a time and he afterwardes fall the cause of that fall per se he onely is himselfe as of the former his guide onely per accidens though of the former neither per accidens Euen so doth God who is both the light of our eyes by his grace infused and also our guide by his infinite helpes externall Howbeit he dealeth not with vs all and alwayes according to his iustice but of his infinite mercie commonly he will not let vs fall when we will néedes fall and when we be fallen he will not let vs fall farther yea he raiseth vs often againe when we would lie still yea also when we resist him and fight against him rebelliously a notable example in S. Paules conuersion Act. 9. Iac. 1. that most worthily S. Iames is so vehement to hold and affirme that all good is of him but no euill at all not so much as tentation to euill Moreouer your great skill in Histories Ecclesiasticall appeareth by that you say Supra ca. 2. ca. 10. Dem. 11.3 Ar. 15.16 the Britons to haue kept their Easter so as the Asians did and the Latines to be departed from the Grecians in this present Schisme Which both I noted before Again because you say as it seemeth that Iulianus the Apostata was Emperour after Valens the Arrian Againe speaking of the Estern Churches of Asia at this presente that the newe Testament is printed in the Syrian tongue at the Emperours charges Ar. 6. for the encrease of Christian faith among them What Emperour and what faith I pray you but Catholike or Popish Pur. 373. Againe that the Fathers alleaging Succession of Bishops against Heretikes specially named the Church of Rome it was because those Heretikes for the most parte had beene sometimes of the Church of Rome as Valentinus Marcian Nouatus Those Heretikes that D. Allen speaketh of were not only the Valentinians and Nouatians but also the Donatistes the Arrians yea and all Heretikes in generall Now had the most part of these béen sometimes of the Church of Rome Yea Nouatus him selfe Supra p. 16 was he not a Priest of the Church of Carthage vnder S. Cyprian Who can reade S. Cyprian and be ignorant thereof specially now a dayes after that so many haue noted the error of some Gréeke Historians who in olde time and being farre of could not distinguishe Nouatus of Carthage from Nouatianus of Rome And also of Valentinus and Marcion where haue you that they were of Rome vnlesse all that goe to Rome be of Rome For so wée reade in Ireneus Iren. l. 3. ca. 4. li. 1. ca. 29. Philast in Catal. the time noted when Valentinus came to Rome for by Philastrius he was of Cypres and that Marcion was of Pontus being therefore called Ponticus You might in another sense say that they all other Heretikes were sometimes of the Church of Rome because all lightly were first Catholikes and al Catholikes were as all ought to be of that Churches communion And that to haue bene the cause why the Fathers named that Church specially But so you would not say because you woulde not condemne your selfe for a Schismatike Last of all where you must shew vs wherein the Communion of Saintes consisteth you shew your self againe a great clearke Pur. 199.200 The Scriptures make the Communion of Saints to be as is the Communion of our members in our body Yet you say One can not merite for another no not for him selfe but euery man hath his worthinesse of Christ As though neither Christ could merite for any other no nor for himselfe because he had his worthinesse of God Againe graunting that some of the members be here on earth and some elsewhere yet denying that they may either by prayer also helpe one the other you so define the Communion that you allow it no place for the prayers also of the members aliue to be made for others aliue But only for the dispensation of the grace and giftes of God which as euery one hath receyued of God so of charitie he is bound to imploy the same to the profite