Bishop be ouer one diocesse one rchbishop ouer one Prouince Wherfore I conclude thus It is necessary y t among the cler ie some should be in authoritie ouer the rest and therfore there may be both Archbishops Bishops but I know you wil answer y t there may be gouernment without these degrées then say I vnto you againe stand not so much in your owne c ceyt this order is most auncient in the Church it is confirmed by the best and noblest Councels it is allowed by the best learned fathers it hath the pattern from the practise of the Apostles a l whiche hath bin shewed before it is most méet for this state and kingdome and therfore be no wilful in a new deuise the triall wherof was neuer as yet the maner wherof is vnknown to your selfe and the end no doubt mere confusion Your welfauoured and 〈◊〉 speeches together with your accustomed cōtempt I omit here as I doe in other places Chap. 3. the. 41. Diuision T. C. Pag. 83. Sect. 3. The moste therfore that he can conclude of this for the ministerie is that there must be minister that shall rule and people that shall be obedient and hereby he can 1. of proue that ther should be any degrees amongst the ministers and ecclesiasticall gouernours vnlesse he wyl say peraduenture that as there are vnder magistrates and a kyng aboue them all so there shoulde be vnder ministers and one minister aboue all * But he must remember that it is not necessary in a common Note this suspicious speache of the kinde of gouernment wealth that there should be one ouer all for that there are other good common wealthes wherin many haue lyke power and authoritie And further if bicause there is one kyng in a lande aboue all he wil conclude there should be one Archbishop ouer all I say as I haue sayd that it is not against any word of God which I know although it be inconuenient but that there may be one Cesar ouer all the worlde and yet I thinke M. Doctor wyll not say that there maye be one Archebishop ouer all the worlde Io. Whitgifte Why there ought to be superioritie among ministers as well as other The gouernmente of the churche in a Christi n cōmon wealth oughte to bee according to the forme ther in vsed Yes I wil cōclude that ther ought to be degrées of superioritie amōg y e ministers also bicause they labour of imperfections as wel as other mē do especally of pride arrogancie vainglorie which ingender schismes here 's es contentions as the examples of all times and ages euen from the Apostles to this time declare I am persuaded y t the externall gouernment of the church vnder a christiā Magistrate must be according to the kinde forme of the gouernment vsed in the cōmon wealth else how can you make the Prince supreme gouernour of all states causes ecclesiastical wil you so deuide the gouernment of y e Churche from the gouernment of the cōmon wealth that the one being a monarchie the other must be a Democratie or an Aristocratie this were to deuide one realme into two and to spoyls the Prince of the one halfe of hir iurisdiction and authoritie If you will therefore haue the Quéene of Englande rule as Monarche ouer all hir dominions then muste you also giue her leaue to vse one kinde and forme of gouernment in all and euery parte of the same and so to gouerne the Church in Ecclesiasticall affaires as she doth the common wealth in ciuile But you say that I must remember that it is not necessarie in a common welth that there T. C. speaketh suspiciously of gouernment should be one ouer all I say that you must remember that in this cōmon wealth it is necessarie y t one shuld be ouer al except you wil trāsform aswel y e state of y e kingdom as you would of y e church which is not vnlike to be your meaning for not long after you adde that the common wealth must be stamed a cording to y e church as the hangyngs to the house the gouernmēt therof w t her gouernment c. not contrary meaning y t the gouernmēt of the cōmon wealth ought not to be monarchical but either democratical or Aristocratical bicause as you say the gouernment of the Church ought to be such What this in time wil bréed in this common wealth especially when it cōmeth to the vnderstanding of the people who naturally are so desirous of innouations I referre it to the iudgement of those that can and ought best to consider it The vnlike linesse that is betwixt one Cesar being ouer all the world of one archbishop being ouer all the world I haue shewed before they be most vnlike yet this is but a friuolous vaine supposition M. Caluin in his Inst. cap. 8. sect 96. doth say that it is absurdissimum most absurd Chap. 3. the 42. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 71. Sect. 4. It is not to be denied but that ther is an equalitie of al ministers of Equalitie among ministers touching minist rie gods word quoad ministeriū touching the ministerie for they haue allike power to preach the word to minister the sacraments that is to say the word preached or the sacramēts ministred is as effectual in one in respect of the ministerie as it is in an other But quoad ordinem politiam touching order gouernment ther always hath bin must be degrees and superioritie among them For the churche of God is not a cōfused congregation but ruled directed aswel by discipline policie in matters of regimēt as by the word of God in matters of faith T. C. Pag. 84. Sect. 1. 2. Nowe M. Doctor cōmeth to his olde hole where he would fayn hide himself and with him all the ambition tyrannie excesse of authorttie which is ioyned with these functions of Archebishop and bishop as they are now vsed this his hole is that al the ministers are equall with bishops Archbishops as touching the ministerie o the word sacramentes but not as touching policie gouernment The Papists vse the very self same (a) This distinction is allowed of those that be sarre from Papistrie distinction for the maintenance of the Popes tyrannie and ambition and other their hierarchie M. Doctor hath put out the mark concealed the name of the Papists so with a little change of wordes as it were with certayn newe colours he would deceyue vs. For the Papistes saye that euery syr Iohn or hedge Prieste hathe as greate authoritie to sacrifyce and offer for the quycke and the deade and to minister the Sacramentes as the Pope of Rome hath but for gouernment and for order the Bishoppe is aboue a Prieste the Archebishoppe aboue a bishop and the Pope aboue them all But I haue (b) You haue no yet declared 〈◊〉
Gentils seeke where he dothe not forbidde them to séeke for meate drynke and clothing but to séeke for it too carefully and with mistrust of Gods prouidence as the Gentiles did In lyke maner here he forbiddeth not gouernment either in the ciuil or Ecclesiasticall state but he forbiddeth suche gouernment as the Gentils vsed and such corrupt affections as they had in desiring the same Touchying your argument I saye it hath two faultes Fyrst it is a fallacion Two faultes in the argument of T. C. à petitione principij for you take it as graunted that the Ciuill Magistrate is seuered from the Ecclesiasticall officer by bearyng dominion whyche I will not simplye graunte vnto you for that is partely oure question Secondly your minor is ambiguous The ciuill Magistrate doth not simply biffer from the Ecclesiastical by bearing dominion and therfore in that respect your argumente may be also placed in the fallacion of aequiuocation for the worde Dominion may haue diuers significations It may signifye suche dominion as Christe speaketh of in this place that is rule with oppression It maye also signifie the absolute authoritie of a Prince suche as is mentioned 1. Samuell 8. Thyrdely it maye signifie any peculiar office of superioritie and gouernment vnder the Prince at the appoyntment of the Prince as the Diuers significations of the word Dominion authoritie of a Iudge Iustice. Maior c. Laste of all it may signifye any iurisdiction or kynde of gouernment If you take it in eyther of the two fyrst significations your minor is true if in either of the two latter significations it is false For wée graunte that there is greate difference betwixte the dominion of Kings and Princes and betwixte the Jurisdiction and authoritie of Bishoppes Kings haue power ouer lyfe and goodes c. so haue not Bishops Kings haue authoritiie in al causes and ouer all persons withintheir dominions without any limitation if Bishops haue any suche dominion especially in Ciuill causes it is not in the respects they be Bishops but it is from the Prince and limited vnto them Touching theyr names and titles you saye he putteth a difference in these woordes and they are called gracious Lordes but it shall not be so with you c. The woordes of the twentith of Mathewe bée these And they that are greate exercise authoritie ouer them In the. 10. of Marke the same woordes be vsed In the. 22. of Luke the Gréeke woorde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 benefici vocantur they are called bountifull or beneficiall whyche I sée not howe you can by anye meanes applye to your purpose For Mathewe and Marke referre thys clause It shall not bee so among you not to anye name but to the ambition and tyrannicall kynde of dominion whyche our Sauioure Christe there reproueth as it is moste manyfeste And therefore thys place of Luke muste also bée expounded by them Neither is this woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of any suche imperiousnesse that Chryste shoulde forbyd Caluinus hys Disciples the name M. Caluine in his Commentaries interpretyng these woordes of Saincte Luke sayeth thus As touchyng the woordes where Mathewe hath that kings exercise authoritie ouer them in Luke wee reade that they are called bountyfull in the same sense as though he shoulde saye Kings haue plenty of all thyngs and are very ryche so that they maye bee bountyfull and liberall And a little after he sayeth that they doe appetere laudem munificentiae desire the commendation of bountyfulnesse I knowe that certayne of the Kynges of Egypte were called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 munifici benefactores bountifull and benefactours and that they were delyghted to bée so called I know also that among the Hebrues theyr Princes were called Munifici liberales per antonomasian But what then if eyther they vaynegloriously desyred that name or were so called when they deserued rather the names of Tyrantes and oppressoures dothe it therefore followe that they be vnlawfull names for suche as maye deserue them The moste that can bée gathered of this place for any thyng that I perceyue is that the Kings of the Gentiles had vayne and flattering titles giuen them béeing nothing lesse in déede than that whiche their names did signifie and so maye it bée a good admonition for menne Howe the wordes Vos autem non sic may be reserred to names to learne to answere to theyr names and titles and to doo in déed that whiche by snche names and titles is signified Nowe then if you will haue Vos autem non sic but it shall not bee so wyth you to bée a prohibition to all Christians and especially to Bishops that they shall not ambitiously seeke dominion as the Gentiles dyd vniustly and tyrannously vse their authoritie as they also dyd nor haue names and titles to the whiche they doe not accordingly answere no more than the Gentiles did then I agrée with you But if you will haue Vos autem non sic to restrayne them from being called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is liberal benefactors c. as your interpretatiō agréeth not with the wordes of the other two Euangelistes so doth it not wyth any learned interpreter that I haue read To your argument concerning names and titles I answere as I did to the former Diuers kyndes of names Some names titles are proper to the ciuil Magistrate only as the names of Emperor King Prince Duke Erle c. These names are not giuē to any of the Clergie in this Church to my knowledge some names are cōmon to the Ciuill Magistrate Names common to ciuill and Ecclesiastical persons with Ecclesiasticall persons as certaine names of reuerence of superioritie of office The name of Gratious Lorde is a name of superioritie and of reuerence according to the manner of the countrey where it is vsed and therefore may well agrée eyther to the ciuill or Ecclesiasticall persons and in many places dyuers are called by this name Lord which is in Latin Dominus for reuerence and ciuilitie whiche haue verie small dominion As for the name of Archebishoppe or Metropolitane that is not proper to any ciuill Magistrate and therfore without the compasse of your argument Thus then you sée that some titles are proper to the ciuill Magistrate some to the Ecclesiasticall and some common to both wherby your maior is vtterly ouerthrowne As for this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vpon the whiche you séeme to grouude your argument I see not why it may not be common to all men that shewe themselues liberall and beneficiall There is no man denyeth but that there is and must be great difference betwixt the pompe and outwarde shewe of a Prince and the state of an Ecclesiasticall person bothe in titles and other maiestie and I thinke that he is verie blynde that séeth it not so to be in this Churche of England yet may the Ecclesiasticall person shewe foorth the countenance of his degrée
whole Church of making of such orders may and ought to be called to a certayne number that confusion may be auoyded and with the consent also of the Churches to auoyde tyrannie it shall appeare in a more proper place where we shall haue occasion to speake of the eldership or gouernment in euery Church and of the communion and societie or participation intercommuning of the Churches togyther by councels and assemblies prouinciall or nationall Io. Whitgifte Diuers of those learned men here named being rightly enformed of the state of The occasion of mens writings must be considered this controuersie with all the circumstances perteyning therevnto haue set downe their opinions in writing and therefore if it should so come to passe which as yet is not proued neyther as I thinke will be that in their publike writings they should séeme to affirme any thing contrary to their priuate letters it is bycause they speaking generally of all and hauing respect to the time and place wherein and when such things were abused haue generally spoken of them otherwise then they do as they be now vsed in this Church of England And surely in my opinion these their epistles wherein of purpose being required they gyue their sentence of suche matters oughte to be more credited than their generall writings wherein they maye séeme otherwise to speake vppon other occasions But I thinke that in the ende it will fall out that they haue written nothyng publikely againste any thing that is written by them priuately and of some of them I am sure that their publike and priuate writings of these matters doe fully agrée But where haue you learned to answere on this sorte to the authoritie of learned men to accuse them of contrarietie before you haue manifestly proued it is to doe vnto them great iniurie The place of M. Bucer maketh directly for my purpose and therefore in giuyng place vnto it you graunte as muche as I hitherto haue required For M. Bucer vsed the example of apparell whiche is one thing in controuersie betwixte vs and sayeth playnly that the Church hath authoritie to appoint such things as haue neyther cōmaundement nor example in the Scripture These Epistles of M. Bucer and of M. Martyr with the Epistles of other learned men be printed and published wholly and fully and it can not bée that the same should be vnknown vnto you the bookes being so cōmon your pleading of ignorance in this thing is but a colour When euery Minister must be chiefe of the seigniorie and haue with some other of the parishe the whole authoritie Ecclesiasticall when they must not bee so First admo ▪ the. 14. reason tyed to any forme of prayers but as the spirite moueth them so to poure out supplications when the Prince is secluded from authoritie in appoynting of ceremonies and orders of discipline that is when in Ecclesiasticall matters you giue to the Ciuill magistrate no more than the Papistes do to wit potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris as will afterwardes more plainly appeare what is it else but for euery minister to be Pope in his owne parishe and to vse suche order discipline and seruice as he himselfe listeth If you had bin disposed to speake the truthe and to report my wordes as they be written you woulde haue eased your booke of these lynes whiche followe For where doe I giue this authoritie to the Bishops or in what words do I restrayne the Churche to them my wordes be these Is it not as lawfull for a godly Prince with the aduise and consente of godlie and learned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church c. You sée that I ioyne the Prince the Bishops and other of the wisest together in making of orders c. and whensoeuer I meane the Churche in suche a case I meane not the confused multitude of the Church but suche as God hath called to gouerne his Church in the externall gouernment whome I take to be in this Churche the Prince the Bishops the Councell and suche other as by the order of this Churche haue to do in suche like matters Your falsifying hurteth not me but discrediteth your selfe and your cause The Bishops haue muche to thanke you that it would please you to admitte them into that consultation of yours if they woulde giue ouer that office and callyng But thanks be vnto God you haue as yet no suche authoritie committed vnto you Wherfore this and suche lyke kynde of speaches doe but declare howe magnifically you thynke of your selfe c. If it pertayne to the whole Churche that is as I thinke you vnderstande it to the whole multitude of the Churche to make suche orders howe can you restraine it to a certaine number or why not as well to some one if the multitude thynke it so conuenient but of this matter when you come to youre seigniorie and kinde of gouernment Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 30. Sect. 1. An examination of the places c. TO proue that nothing in this mortall lyfe is more diligently to be sought for and carefully to be looked vnto than the restitution of true Religion and reformation of Gods Churche there is noted 2. Reg. 23. 2. Chro. 17. 2. Chro. 29. 30. 31. Psalm .. 132 Math 21. Ioh. 2. In the firste place it is declared howe Iosiah after he had founde the booke of the lawe reformed the Churche In the seconde place Iehosaphat tooke away the high places and groues out of Iuda c. In the 29. 30. 31. of the. 2. Chron. is described the doings of Ezechias in repairing the temple and reforming religion c. In the. 132. Psalme it is declared with what care Dauid went about to build the temple of God after that he was once established in his kingdome In the. 12. of Math. Iesus went into the temple and cast out all them that bought and sold in the temple c. The like he did in the seconde of Iohn All this is confessed to be true and no man denieth it And I pray God make vs thankfull for the Queenes maiestie who hathe not bin slacke in this point but hath like a vertuous religious and godly prince in the very entring into hir raigne notwithstanding the multitude of hir aduersaries bothe at home and abrode abolished all superstition and restored the simplicitie of the Gospell But these men alleadge these places to the discredite of this reformation and of the whole gouernmente of this Churche How aptly and how truly let godly wise and learned meniudge Io. Whitgifte All this is passed ouer with silence and nothing said vnto it good or bad The exposition of the places Deu. 4. 12. quoted by the Admonition Cap. 6. The first Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 30. Sect. 2. TO proue that these things only are to be placed in gods Church The places in the. 4. and. 12. o Deutero expounded whiche God himselfe in
such proportion of antiquitie for your Pope to be cheefe head of the whole Churche as is to be shewed for Archbishops to be the chiefe Bishops in their owne prouinces c. Hitherto M. Nowell I marueyle that you will ioyne with the Papistes in so grosse a reason Chap. 3. the. 32. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82 Sect. 1. If you say that the Archbishop of England hath his authoritie graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas which was Emperour of al Christendome did graunt him his authoritie ouer all Churches But you will say that is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therein as you do in diuerse poyntes here But admit it to be yet I say further that it may come to passe and it hath bene that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes which haue Churches What if he then will giue that authoritie to one ouer all that one king graunteth in his lande may any man accept and take at his handes such authoritie and if it be not lawfull for him to take that authoritie tell me what fault you can finde in him which may not be founde in them Io. Whitgifte The Pope doth chalenge muche of his temporalties from Constantinus and Phocas but his supremacie and iurisdiction ouer all Churches he claymeth from Peter and from Christe wherein his clayme is more intollerable being most false and his iurisdiction more vsurped beyng wrongfully chalenged you erre therefore in that oynt greatly The Archbishop doth exercise his iurisdiction vnder the Prince and by the Princes authoritie For the Prince hauing the supreme gouernment of the realme in all causes and ouer all persons as she doth exercise the one by the Lorde Chancellor so doth she the other by the Archbishops Your supposition of one Cesar ouer all realmes that haue Churches is but supposed and therfore of no weight but admit it were true yet is there not the like reason for one Archbishop to be ouer all those Churches and ouer one prouince the reasons I haue alleaged before out of M. Caluine other neither is there any man not wilfully blinded or papistically affected that seeth not what great diuersitie there is betwixt one prouince and many kingdomes the gouernment of the one and the gouernment of the other Si vnus duodecim bominibus praefuit an propterea sequetur vnum debere Inst. cap. 8. centum millibus hominum praefici If one was ouer twelue men shall it therefore follow that one may be appoynted ouer an hundred thousand men Sayth M. Caluine Chap. 3. the. 33. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 2. It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a Bishop vnto all the whole Church neyther is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole Churche of England for when those which haue bene most excellent in knowledge and wisdome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue founde ynough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he which absent is able to discharge his duetie toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Ehauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what do you else say than the Pope which sayeth that by his Cardinalles Archbishops and Legates and other such lyke he doth all things For with their handes he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euery where and with their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therefore least if they haue a common defense with the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer with him in the cause than peraduenture they be aware of (a) Who can beleue you mean good fayth ▪ Truly it is agaynst my will that I am constrayned to make such comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersitie betweene the Popedome and the Archbyshopricke but bycause there being great resemblance betwene them I meane hauing regard to the bare functiōs without respecting the doctrine good or bad which they vphold that I say there being great resemblance betwene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betwene the persons that execute them The which good opinion conceyued of them I do most humbly beseech them by the glorie of God by the libertie of the Churche purchased by the precious bloud of our sauiour Christe and by their owne saluation that they would not deceyue by reteyning so harde such excessiue and vniust dominion ouer the Church of the liuing God Io. Whitgifte But one man may do the office of an Archbishop in one prouince euery seuerall diocesse whereof hath a Bishop And one man may do the office of a Bishop in one diocesse euery seuerall parishe whereof hath a seuerall Pastor The Archbishop hath a generall charge ouer the prouince to sée that vnitie be kept among the Bishops and that the Bishops do their duties according to the lawes and order of the Churche or else to sée them reformed according to the sayd lawes orders if they shall be cōplayned of to haue neglected the same The lyke care haue the Bishops ouer the seuerall Pastors of their diocesse and other persons Neyther doth their office consiste in preaching onely but in gouerning also in the respect whereof they are ouer aboue the rest This office of gouernment may be well executed in one prouince so much and so far as by the lawes is required and as is cōuenient for the state of the Church but it could not be so ouer all Christendome It may be that some Pastors hauing small charges and busie heades may finde and procure moe matters and controuersies than eyther they be able or willing to compound such busie Pastors there be in England but their vnquietnesse or lacke of abilitie to dispatch those controuersies which they themselues are the authors and causes of doth not proue but that eyther the Archbishop or Bishop may do those things sufficiently and well that do apperteyne to their office and calling So much may they do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Chauncellors c. as by the rules of the Churche are permitted vnto them and may be conuenient for the time and persons But the office of preaching of ordeyning ministers of suppressing heresies and schismes with such lyke they do not commit vnto them but execute them themselues the which bycause they cannot do throughout all Churches as they may in one Prouince therefore your reason is no reason Moreouer a Bishop of one diocesse or prouince may haue conference with his Archdeacons and Chauncellor and be priuie to all and singular their doings So cannot the Pope with his Cardinalles Archbyshops and Legates c. dispersed thorough out whole Christendome And therefore an Archbishop or Bishop may
in the Defense for Archbishops and the superiority of Bishops 470. c. ¶ Archdeacons 344. c. ¶ Archiflamines 320. c. 323 ¶ Argumentum à secundùm quid ad simpliciter 23 Argumentum ab authoritate negatiuè 24. 26. 77. 328. 543 Argument of Negatiues by comparison 26 27 Argumentum à petitione principij 26. 62. 95. 249. 302. 304. 314. 322. 440. 451. Argumentum à non causa pro causa 27. 293. 482. Argumentum ab aequivocatione 62 Argumentum à facto ad us 142. 161. 505. Argumentum ab authoritate affirmatiuè 78 Argumentum ex solis particularibus pag. 79 Argumentum ab ignorantia Elenchi 109. 181. 187. 206. 426. A deformed argument 316. c. Arguments borowed of the Papists 466. 696. 697. 698. c. Argumentum à toto ad partes affirmatiuè 265 ¶ Aristotle not rightly alleaged 243 ¶ Arrogancie cloked with zeale 42 Arrogancie disprayseth good things pag. 725 Arrogancie of the libellers 57 ¶ Assertion vnaduised 475 ¶ Athanasius Archbishop 471. 339 Athanasius Creede 496 Athanasius being a child baptized pag. 519. ¶ Atheists in the Church 178 ¶ Auncient Fathers contemned of the vnlearned 811 ¶ Augustine of thinges indifferent pag. 99. c Augustine deliuered from vntrue surmises 100 Augustine heareth ciuill causes 771. 772. Augustine retorted vpon the aduersarie 811 ¶ Aurelius Bishop of Carthage had the ouersight of many Churches pag. 471 ¶ Authoritie the best proofe in Diuine matters 200 B ¶ Babling in prayer what it is 805 ¶ Baptisme the sacrament of fayth pag. 608. 609 Matters touching baptisme 607. c Of the parties to be baptised 619. c Baptisme once ministred remaineth perpetuall 622 The essentiall poynte of Baptisme pag. 519. Baptisme called priuate in respect of the place 93. 504 Baptisme ministred but once a yere pag. 238 Baptisme true though not ordinarily ministred 517. 521 Differring of Baptisme not cōuenient 521 Baptisme by lay men 518. 519. 523. Baptisme by women not collected out of the booke 504. 793. Baptisme by women not defended pag. 509. 516. 29. Baptisme ministred in priuate places 511. c. 513. Necessitie in Baptisme 523. Baptisme ministred withoute preaching 563 The name of Baptisme transferred to the giftes of the spirit 564 ¶ Basilius a Metropolitane 341. 471 ¶ Battus a babling Poet. 805 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 804 ¶ Beggers and ignorant persons are thoughte onely to bee saued of some 10 ¶ To beleue and to be elected not al one 611 ¶ Benedictus 494. c. 496. 497 ¶ Beza calleth the names of Archbishops c. holy names 472 Beza his iudgemēt of baptising the children of excommunicate person c. 623. 624. ¶ Bishops moste mete to haue the examination of ministers 131 Bishope haue authoritie to admitte ministers 196. c Bishops appointe their successours pag. 205 Bishops authoritie 297. c 408. Bishops called heades of the Churches 301 One ministerie of Bishops but diuerse degrees 320 A Byshop aboue a priest in Cyprians time 358 One Byshoppe in one Cittie 366. 444. Difference betwixte Byshoppe and Priest 383 Byshoppes in the Apostles tymes pag. 384. 470 Ieromes Byshoppe aboue an Elder in rule 385 Byshops gouernours simply not of one action onely 3 Byshoppes authoritie consisteth in offences 75 Byshop high priest 411. 470. 471. VVhat kinde of authoritie Byshops exercise 420 Byshoppes succede Apostles in gouernment 32 Comparison betwixte our Byshope and the olde Bishops 472 〈◊〉 Byshops alone excommunicate 6 6 c. Byshops may haue assistance in excommunication 673 Authoritie ascribed to Bishops in x communication not infinite but limited 6 8 Byshops gaue sentence in ciuill causes 773 ¶ A Bloudy assertion 150 ¶ Booke of common prayer Looke Communion Booke Booke of ordering Ministers iustifyed concerning examination pag. 134. 〈◊〉 42 The reasons of T. C. agaynste the Booke of ordering Ministers pag. 134. c ¶ Bodye what it signifieth in Caluine 46 Of these wordes The Body of ou e Lord Iesus Christ. c. 6 ¶ Bragges 58. 297 ¶ Bread in the Communion Looke Communion Bread ¶ Brethren may be punished 809 ¶ Bucer of things indifferēt 113. c. Bucers censure of the first Communion Booke 595 615 Bucer defaced by the Replyer 522 ¶ Burialls 727. c The place of Buriall 737 The dutie of the minister not hindred by burying the dead 730 A prayer at Buryall expounded pag. 729 The dead buryed by the minister with prayer 728 Buriall Sermons Looke funerall sermons C ¶ Caius Fimbria 7 8 ¶ Caluine acknowledgeth the names of Archbishop c. 417. c Caluine of thinges indifferente 109 c. Caluine alloweth Superioritie 390. 398. Diuerse editions of Caluines institutions 391. 50 Caluines opinion of Communion bread 592. c ¶ Canon law not altogether condemned 463 c ¶ Can is not taken for ought 778 ¶ Catechist and pastor differ 425 Catechi mes 152. c ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 69 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 69 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 280 ¶ Cathedrall Churches 742. c Cathedrall Churches before Antichristian Popes 747 A Colledge of Ministers in euery citie 747. Our Cathedrall Churches not much differing from those of old time pag. 747 The vse of Cathedrall Churches necessary 747 ¶ Cauilles 130. 352. 401. 506. 574. 585 628. ¶ A Caueat 448 A necessary caueat 481 ¶ Ceremonies of 2. sortes 80 How we haue but 2. ceremonies 119 Substantiall ceremonies 80 Accidentall ceremonies 80 Rules of ceremonies 86. 87 The controuersie about ceremonies confessed by T. C. 85. 86. 126 Euery church hath an order of ceremonies 707 How Ceremonies serue to edifying pag. 286. c. VVhy God appointed so many ceremonies to the Iewes 305 Disterence betwixt Popish ceremonies and oures 616 The ground of the Assertion about ceremonies vnanswered by T. C. pag. 94 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 158. c. 163 ¶ Children of Papists and excommu nicate persons may bee baptisedpag 621. c How children are said to beleue 608 ¶ Christ called Archbishop 300 Christ vsed vnleauened biead 593. c. ¶ Christian men sheepe but reasonable 172 The number of Christiās more now than in the Apostles times 175 ¶ Chrisostome an Archbishop 412. c. 472. Chris stome exerciseth Archiepiscopall iurisdiction in Asia 414 Chrisostome of distinctiō of degrees pag. 387 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 682 ¶ Church cannot be shut vp in one prouince now 465 The Church is reformed not transformed 474 To frame all churches after one is daungerous 481. 482 Church for the gouernours of the church 636. 66 No church maye challenge to bee a patterne necessarily to be followed 704 The church full of hypocrites 176 Some in the church and not of the church 179 No church established in the Apostles time how 180. 18 The church in persecution in Constantines time 188. 189 The Authoritie of the church in things indifferent 76. c. VVhat thinges are left to the order of the church 83. 88. c. 713. The
determination of the church ought not lightly to be altered 89 ¶ Churching of women 534. c. The cause of the womans absence from the church after hir dehuerance 535 ¶ Circumstances necessarie are commaunded 512 ¶ Circumcision a sacrament 618 Circumcision in priuate houses 515 ¶ Cypriā chooseth without consent of the people 205 Cyprian of the office of an Archbishop 354. c. 367. c. Cyprian a Metropolitane 356. 438. 470. ¶ Ciuil offices in Ministers 749. c. Ciuill offices in our Ministers tend to the gouernment of the church pag. 75 Ciuill authoritie not claimed but committed to our Bishops 752 Some Ciuill offices rather helpes than hinderances to Bishops 753 Augustine iudgeth ciuill causes pag. 772. Ciuil iurisdiction that the Pope claimeth not like to that in vse in this church 759. 778 A greater ciuill iurisdiction sought for in disprouing the lesse 760 Ciuil iurisdictiō in vse in this church is in some respect ecclesiasticall pag. 766. 771 Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall offices met in one 767. 771. Ciuil offices in ministers not against the word of God 773. The practise of the Church for ciuil offices in ministers 773. Ciuill businesse incident to Byshops by the iudgemente of the holye Ghost 772. 774. ¶ Clement 319. c. Clements Epistle read in the church pag. 719. ¶ Collect vpon Trinitie Sunday 491 Collect of the 12. Sunday after Trinitie Sunday 491. ¶ Coemiteria 250. ¶ Commaundementes of diuerse kindes 103. All the commaundementes of God and of the Apostles are not nedefull for our saluation 103. ¶ Cōmunitie in the Apostles times pag. 162. ¶ Comelinesse externall is alterable 98. The iudgement of comelinesse resteth not in priuate men 87. ¶ Communion Booke 474. c. Communion in priuate places 5 4. 525. Communion ministred to the sicke pag. 527. c Of the number of Communicantes pag. 528. c. Basill would haue 12. at the least to communicate 530. Of compelling men to communicate 531. 532. 605. Men not meete to cōmunicate may be admitted to the hearing of the word and prayer 533. The Apostles began the communion wyth the Lordes prayer 588. 602. Matters touching the Communion pag. 588. c. Examination of Communicantes pag. 591. c. Two things worthie to be noted of Communicantes 592. Examination of communicants not disallowed 593. Communion bread 593. c. Alexander appoynted vnleauened breed 594. Bucers opinion of Communion bread 594. Caluines opinion of Communion bread 594. Christ vsed vnleauened bread 595. The kinde of bread indifferent 595. Communion at mariages 724. Of shutting mē from the Communion 603. Men persisting in wickednesse are not to be compelled to the communion 605. Halfe communion 737. The makers of the Communion booke praised 711. ¶ Companions of Paule chosen by consent and why 163. ¶ Comparisons vnequall 710. ¶ Conferēce a cause of better know ledge 176. Conference offered to the Replyer hath bene by him refused 354. 7. ¶ Confirmation 725. c 785. 786. Abuse of confirmation in the Popishe Church 786. Confirmation of old time like ours pag. 786. Confirmation at the length allowed 794. The ende of confirmation 794. ¶ Confusion follovveth the doctrin of the Admonitors 3. 559. 746. ¶ Conscientia mille testes 503. ¶ Consuls and their authoritie 396. ¶ Constantine made Ecclesiasticall lawes 698 ¶ Contention defended 34. 377. Contentiō a hinderance to the profession of diuinitie 141. VVho be contentious 13. 14. ¶ Contraries may be defined wyth one difference 124 Some delighte to be contrarie to tymes 283. Men of contrarie iudgement ioy ne against the truth 51. Howe contraries muste be cured by contraries 476. ¶ Conuenticles 41. ¶ Corruption 485 Corruption in the Churche in the Apostles time 349. ¶ Councels summoned by princes page 436 Varietie about the time of the coūcell of Nice 330. The meaning of the. 6. Can. of the councell of Nice Controuersie about the number of Canons of the councell of Nyce page 334. The seconde councell of Nyce alleaged by the Replyer 247. A corrupt councell of Vrbane alleaged by the Replyer 23. A corrupt councell of Hispall alleaged by the Replyer 442. ¶ Courtes of Byshops 679. c. Court of faculties 561. Ecclesiasticall courtes executed in the Princes name 680. ¶ Crossing in Baptisme 614. c. Difference betwixt the papists crossing and ours 616. Crossing no Sacrament 617. ¶ Curates allowed 245. ¶ Cursed things consecrated to god page 284. D. ¶ Damasus alleaged to a wrong pur pose 248. Damasus added Gloria patri 489. ¶ Dayes obseruing of dayes 546. 547. 549. 〈◊〉 kindes of obseruing of Dayes 546 ¶ Deacons chosen by consent and vvhy 164 Of ministring preaching by Deacons 582. c Philip a Deacon baptised 582. 515 Deacons helpe in the ministration pag. 585 The Deaconship a step vnto the ministery 587 Deacons baptised 588. c. More pertayneth too the office of a Deacon than prouision for the poore 687. c. Some parte of the Deacons office not necessary vnder a Christian Prince 689. 690 VVhether Deacons were in euerye congregation 689 VVhy the Apostles left the Deaconship 758 ¶ Deanes 347. 746 ¶ Decrees pertayning too order not onely humane 107 ¶ Degrees of honour in the ministerie 458 Degrees in Diuinitie condemned 780. 781. Degrees in the Vniuersitie condemned 782 To take away Degrees is barbarousnesse 420 To be deliuered from euill what it signifieth 498 ¶ Demetrius bishop of Alexandria and Egypt 470 ¶ Defyling the nature of thinges is not in mans power 285 How farre the precepte in Deuteromie is extended 117 ¶ Digressions frō the matter to the persons 24. 235. 351. 370. 512. ¶ Dic Ecclesiae interpreted 636. 663 ¶ Dionisius Areopagita Archbishop of Athens 470. 324 Dionysius Ariopagite vsed of maister Ievvell agaynst Harding 608 Dionysius Alexandr Bishop of Alexandria and Pentapolis 470 Dionysius Corinthius b 719 Dionysius Corinth his epistles read in the Church 719 Dionysius deuided parishes 249. 250. ¶ Dioscorus Archbishop 338. 471. ¶ Discipline necessarie 559 Matters concerning Discipline 660 VVherein Discipline consisteth 661 The execution of Discipline not gyuen equally to all 313 ¶ Distinction quoad ministerium quoad ordinem iustified 390 Disobedience in ciuill matters is disobedience to God 282 Dissention domesticall the fo erunner of Destruction 705 ¶ Doctors of law left out of the Admonition and way 783 ¶ Doctrine framed to mens persons pag. 148 All pointes of Doctrine pure in this Church 129 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 interpreted 461 ¶ Dominion hath diuerse significations 63 Some kind of temporall Dominion denied to ministers 64 A minister maye exercise temporall Dominion 64. 65 ¶ Donatists and their properties 50. 622. ¶ A doubtfull saying 255 ¶ Drun kardes in the visible church pag. 177 E ¶ Easter obserued of the Apostles pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ King Edwardes priestes left 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ Elections act 1. act 6. agree 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not 〈◊〉 in the Apostles time 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not generall in
But you haue not yet proued your doctrine now in question to be that doctrine of the Gospell of saluation These woordes might wel haue ben spoken of the Gospell against Mahometisme Iudaisme Papisme but you doe iniurie to that doctrine of lyfe when you confounde with the same your erroneous contentions about ceremonies and the kinde of gouernment whiche all béeing externall things I thinke not many will make them to be de necessitate salutis of necessitie vnto saluation you haue here sayde nothing of your doctrine but that whiche the Arrians the Pelagians the Papistes the Turkes yea almoste the Anabaptistes will say of theirs for many euen of the Anabaptistes confesse that Magistrates be necessarie but yet not to be lawfull for Christians to be Magistrates and for proof therof they vse diuers of the self same places that the Admonition hath alleaged and you allowed against superioritie in the clergie And except I be deceyued you come verie néere to them for you will haue the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill gouernment so distincte that they can by no meanes concurre in one and the selfe same persons wherby you take from the Ciuil Magistrate authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and by that meanes spoyle him of the one halfe of his iurisdiction But of this matter more at large hereafter as occasion shall be ministred by you In the meane tyme I admonishe the Reader to beléeue youre wordes no farther than he shall sée iust proofe of them T. C. If it be asked of the obedience due vnto the Prince and vnto the Magistrate it answereth that all obedience in the Lorde is to be rendred and if it come to passe that any other be asked it so refuseth that it disobeyeth not in preferring obedience to the greate God before that whiche is to be giuen to mortall man It so resysteth that it submitteth the bodie and goodes of those that professe it to abyde that whiche God will haue them suffer in that case Io. Whitgifte All this is truly spoken of the doctrine of the Gospell but not of the doctrine in controuersie amongst vs and verily this is not plaine dealing to make the reader beléeue that we doe withstande the doctrine of the Gospell when we only resist your contentions about externall matters wherby the doctrine of the Gospel is hindered and the Churche of Christ disturbed T. C. And if it be shewed that this is necessarie for the Churche it can not be but profitable for the common wealth nay the profit of it may easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipline of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kept back from committing of great disorders of stealing adulterie murder c. whylest the smaller faults of lying and vncomely 〈◊〉 of harde and cholerike speaches which the magistrate both not commonly punishe be corrected Io. Whitgifte If it be necessarie for the present state of the Churche it is also profitable for the present state of the cōmon welth for I perceiue no such distinction of the common wealth the church that they should be counted as it were two seueral bodies gouerned with diuers lawes diuers Magistrates except the Church be linked with an heathenish idolatrous cōmon wealth The ciuil Magistrate may not take vpon him What ecclestasticali functions the 〈◊〉 Magistrate may not take vpon him ▪ such Ecclesiastical functiōs as are only proper to the Minister of the Church as preaching of the wordé administring of the Sacramentes excommunicating and suche lyke but that he hath no authoritie in the Churche to make and execute lawes for the Churche and in things pertaining to the Churche as Discipline Ceremonies c. so that he doo nothing agaynst the woorde of God though the Papistes affirme it neuer so stoutely yet is the contrarie moste true and sufficiently proued by men of notable learning as Master Iewell Bishop of Salisburie Maister Horne Bishop of Winchester Maister Nowell Deane of Paules in their bookes written against Papistes holding your assertion to whose painefull and learned writings I res rre the Reader for the auoyding of too muche prolixitie I doe not well vnderstande what is mente by these woordes Naye the profite of it maye easyly appeare for that by the censures and discipliue of the Churche as they are in this booke described men are kepte backe from committing of greater disorders of stealyng adulterie murther c. whylest the smaller faultes of lying and vncomely iesting of harde and cholerike speaches whiche the Magistrate dothe not commonly punysh be corrected Doe you not thinke the punishemente for stealing and murther to be sharpe enough or doe you thynke that the feare of the Discipline of the Churche will more terrifie men from these vices than the feare of deathe Or doe you doubte whether the Ciuill Magistrate hathe Authoritye to appoynte anye other punyshemente for these and suche lyke crimes than is prescribed in the Iudiciall Lawe of Moyses For thys is nowe called in controuersie and begynneth to bée table talke or are you perswaded that the Ciuill Magistrate eyther maye not or will not correcte lying vncomely iesting harde and cholerike speaches Or that if these were punished by the Discipline of the Churche men woulde rather be terrified from the greater crymes than they will be if they be punished with ciuill correction Truly I thinke that the ciuill Magistrate hath sufficient authoritie to prouide remedies for all suche mischieues without altering the state eyther of the church or of the cōmon wealth But let the indifferent Reader iudge whether you goe aboute to wring the swoorde out of the Magistrates hand or no or at the least so to order the matter that it be neuer drawne out to punishe vice but with the consent and at the appoyntment of you and your seigniorie T. C. And vndoubtedly seing that the churche and common wealth doe embrace and kisse one an other seing they be like vnto Hypocrates twinnes which were sick together wel together laughed together and weped together and alwayes lyke affected it can not be but that the breaches of the common wealth haue proceeded from the hurts of the Church and the wants of the one from the lackes of the other Neither is it to be hoped for that the common wealth shal florish vntill the Church be reformed Io. Whitgifte All this I grant and God be thanked therfore if we shal measure the state of the church with the florishing estate wise gouernment of the cōmon wealth we shall haue no great cause to complaine but to burste oute into moste hartie thankes vnto God for the same and most humbly desire the continuance therof I do not say that the Churche is without fault for then should I affirme an impossibilitie but I thinke the faultes that are rather to be in the persons than in the lawes rather in the gouernours than in the kinde of gouernment neyther woulde I haue men eyther Puritanes Donatistes or Anabaptists
well and conueniently be But for so muche as you afterwarde make mention of excommunication and other censures of the Churche whiche are forerunners vnto excommunication I take it that you meane the externall gouernment of the Churche and that kynde of gouernment And yet muste I aske you another question that is whyther you meane that this gouernmente and kynde of gouermente is necessarye at all tymes or then when the Churche is collected together and in suche place where it maye haue gouernment For you knowe that the Churche is sometymes by persecution so dispersed that it appeareth not as we reade Apocal. 6. Nor hath anye certayne place to remayne in so that it can not haue anye externall gouernment or exercise of any discipline But to be shorte I confesse that in a Churche collected togither in one place and In what specte gouernment is necessarie at libertie gouernment is necessarie in the seconde kinde of necessitie but that any one kynde of gouernment is so necessarie that withoute it the Churche can not be saued or that it maye not be altered into some other kynde thought to be more expedient I vtterly denye and the reasons that moue me so to doe be these The firste is bycause I fynde no one certaine and perfitte kynde of gouernmente Reasons why the Church 〈◊〉 not tied to any one certayne kinde of externall gouernment prescribed or commaunded in the Scriptures to the Churche of Christ which no doubt shoulde haue bene done if it had bene a matter necessarie vnto the saluation of the Church Secondly bycause the essentiall notes of the Churche be these onely The true preaching of the worde of God and the righte administration of the Sacramentes Onely two essentiall notes of the church for as Maister Caluine sayth in his Booke agaynst the Anabaptistes Thys honour is meete to be gyuen to the worde of God and to his Sacramentes that wheresoeuer we Caluine aduer Anabap. see the worde of God truely preached and God accordyng to the same truely worshypped and the Sacramentes wythoute superstition administred there we maye wythoute all controuersie conclude the Churche of God to be and a little after so muche we muste esteeme the worde of God and hys Sacramentes that wheresoeuer we fynde them to be there we maye certaynely knowe the Churche of God to be althoughe in the common life of men manye faultes and errours be founde The same is the opinion of other godly and learned writers and the iudgement of the reformed Confess Heb uetica cap. 17. Churches as appeareth by their confessions So that notwythstanding gouernment or some kynde of gouernment maye be a parte of the Churche touching the outwarde forme and perfection of it yet is it not suche a parte of the essence and being but that it may be the Churche of Christ without this or that kinde of gouernment and therefore the kynde of gouernmente of the Churche is not necessarie vnto saluation The Church of Corinth when Paule did write vnto it was the Church of Christ for so doth he call it 1. Cor. 1. where also he doth giue vnto it a singular commendation and yet it had not at that time when he so commendeth it that kynde of gouernment and discipline that you meane of that is excommunication as appeareth 1. Cor. 5. My thirde reason is this If excommunicatiō which is a kind of gouernment be necessarie to saluation then any man may separate him selfe from euerie Church wherin is no excommunication but no man may separate himselfe from euery Church wherin is no excommunicatiō therfore excommunication which is a kynde of gouernment is not necessarie to saluation The first proposition is euident for no man is bounde to remaine in that Churche where any thing is wanting without the which he cannot want of excōmunication is no iust cause of separation from any Churche be saued As for the seconde proposition that is to saye that no man ought to separate him selfe from euerie Churche where excommunication is not bycause it is learnedly proued by suche as haue written against the Anabaptistes who both dyd teache and practise the contrarie it shall be sufficient to referre you vnto them Maister Caluine in hys Booke against the Anabaptistes fayth thus Herein is the controuersie Caluine aduer Anabap. betwixte the Anabaptistes and vs that they thinke there is no Church where this gouernment meaning excommunication is not appointed or not vsed and exercised as it ought to be nor that a Christian mā there ought to receiue the Supper and vnder that pretence they separate themselues from the Churches where the worde of God is truely preached c. M. Bullinger also in his sixt booke against the Anabaptistes saith This the Anabaptistes Bul. lib. 6. aduer Anabap. do vrge that there is no true Church acceptable vnto God where there is no excommunication the whiche they vse To these therefore we answere that the Churche of Corinth was a true Church and so acknowledged of Paule to be 1. Cor. 1. before there was any vse of excommunication in it c. of the same iudgement is M. Gaulter writing vpon Gualter in 1. Cor. 5. the first to the Corinth 5. VVhilest the Anabaptistes persuade themselues that there can be no discipline wythout excommunication they trouble the Churches euery where c. In the same Chapter he sayth that there is no one certaine kinde of gouernment or discipline prescribed to y e Churches but that the same may be altered as the profit of the Churches shall require His words among other be these Let euery Church follow Ibidem that maner of discipline which doth most agree with the people with whō it abideth and which seemeth to be most fit for the place and time And let no man here rashely prescribe vnto others neither let him binde all Churches to one and the same forme But of this matter I shall haue occasion to speake more hereafter where it shall appeare howe farre this learned man M. Gualter is from allowing that kinde of g uernment now in this state of the Churche the which T. C. woulde make vs to beléeue to be so necessarie This haue I briefely set downe not to disalowe discipline or gouernment for I thinke it very conuenient in the Church of Christ nor yet to reiect excommunicatiō which also hath a necessarie vse in the gouernment of the Church but to declare that this assertion can not stande with the truth with learning that the kynde of gouernment meaning as I thinke some one certaine kinde of externall gouernment is necessarie to saluation Chap. 1. the thirde Diuision T. C. Page 14. Sect. 1. 2. And it is no small iniurie which you do vnto the word of God to pinne it in so narrow roome as that it should be able to direct vs but in the principall poyntes of our Religion or as though the substance of Religion or some rude and
same to appoint as they shal thinke most conuenient and agréeable to the generall rules giuen in the scripture for that purpose Neither is this contrarie to any thing that I haue written But bothe in this and that also whiche immediatly foloweth you are contrarie to your self and directly ad oppositum to the Admonition T. C. is contrarie to himselfe and to the Admonition and agreeth with the answere As by conference may appeare for these be your owne wordes Whereby it lykewyse appeareth that we denye not but certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bycause they are of that nature which are varyed by tymes places persons other circumstances and so coulde not at once be set downe and established for euer And yet so left to the order of the Church as that it doe nothyng against the rules aforesayde What dothe this differ from these wordes of myne It is also true that nothing in Ceremonies order discipline or gouernmente of the Churche is to be suffered against the word of God and to this end doe all those authorities and places tende that I haue alledged for this matter So that eyther you vnderstand not me or not your selfe or else your quarell is againste the person not the cause The admonition in this poynt you defende not for it sayeth directly that those things only are to be placed in Fol. 19. Gods Church whiche the Lorde himselfe in his worde commaundeth And although peraduenture you will shifte this off by saying that they meane suche things only as bée commaunded eyther generally or specially yet the whole discourse of their booke declareth that their meaning is that nothing ought to be placed in the Church which is not specially commaunded in the worde of God But séeing you and I agrée in this that the Church hath authoritie to ordeyn ceremonies and make Orders whiche are not expressed in the woorde of God it remayneth to bée considered wherein we differ whiche is as I thinke in this that I say the Churche of England hath lawfully vsed her authoritie in suche ceremonies orders as she hath appointed nowe retaineth and you denie the same so that your controuersie is against the Church of England and the Ceremonies and orders vsed therein And therefore you adde and saye but howe doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the Churche therfore to make a newe ministerie c. Whereby you giue vs to vnderstande that the things you misselike in this Church are the office and name of an Archbishop whiche you vntruly call a newe ministerie as it is by me declared in my answere to the Admonition oure ministerie the gouernment of our Church and as you say other more that is all thinges at your pleasure But how iustly and truly this is spoken shall appeare in their proper places In the meane tyme it is sufficient to tell you that you are an vnwoorthy member of this Churche whiche so vniustly report of it so vnchristianly slaunder it and so without groundes and sounde proofes condemne it There is nothyng by it or in it altered which God hath ordeined and established not to be altered Chap. 1. the syxt Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21 Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 22. Sect. 1. 2. The Scripture hath not prescribed any place or time wherein or when the Lordes Supper should be celebrated neither yet in what manner The Scripture hath not appoynted what tyme or where the congregation shall meete for common Prayer and for the hearing of the word of God neither yet any discipline for the correcting of such as shall contemne the same The Scripture hath not appointed what day in the weeke should be most meete for the Saboth day whither Saterday which is the Iewes Saboth or the day now obserued which was appointed by the Churche The Scripture hath not determined what forme is to be vs d in matrimonie what words what prayers what exhortations The Scripture speaketh not one worde of standing sitting or kneling at the Communion of meeting in Churches fieldes or houses to heare the word of God of preaching in pulpets chaires or otherwise of Baptising in fontes in basons or riuers openly or priuately at home or in the Church euery day in the weeke or on the Sabaoth day only And yet no man as I suppose is so simple to thinke that the Church hath no authoritie to take order in these matters T. C. Pag. 15. Sect. vlt. Pag. 16. Sect. 1. But whyle you goe about to seeme to say muche and rake vp a great number of things you haue made very euill meslyn and you haue put in one things which are not paires nor matches Bycause I will not drawe the Reader willingly into more questions than are alreadie put vp I will not stande to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the Resurrection of our Sauior Christ and so the day wherin the world was renued as the Iewes Sabboth was the day wherin the world was finished and being in all the Churches in the Apostles tymes as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no (a) It is lesse true dealing for you to charg men wi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ey haue not affir ed. great indgement to make it as arbitrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was pour iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appointed no discipline nor correction for such as shal contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God what Church discipline would you haue other than admonitions reprehensions and if these will not profit excommunication and are they not appointed of our Sauiour Christ (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged Math. 18 There are also ciuill punishments and punishments of the body likewise appointed by the worde of God in diuers places (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged in the. 22. of Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods not to the Lord alone shal die the death And in y e (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 19. of Deutronomie Thou shalte turne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may eare and feare and not dare do the lyke The execution of this lawe appeareth in the (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 15. 2. Chro. by king Aza who made alawe that al those that did not seeke the Lord should be killed And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contemners of the worde and prayers There are other for suche as neglect the worde whiche are according to the quantitie of the faulte so that whether you meane ciuill or Ecciesiasticall correction the scripture (c) Or else you are deceyued hath defined of them bothe Io. Whitgifte Out of all these things whiche I saye the Scripture hath not prescribed or appointed T. C. seeketh quarels
the words of the Apostle than eyther to S. Augustines or yours whiche sayth that if he or an Angell from heauen shoulde preache any other (1) M Doctor speaketh not of preaching another Gospell but of appoynting other rites and orders Gospel than that whiche he had preached that they shoulde holde him accursed he saythe not any contrarie or repugnant doctrine but any other Gospell But tell me why (2) Bicause it nothing pertaineth to my purpose S. Aug. mangled and not truely reported passed you by that in Augustine which he writeth to Ianuarie likewise that those thinges whiche are not contayned in the Scripture nor decreed of Councels nor confirmed by generall customes but are varied by the maners of Regions and of men vpon occasion offered oughte to be cutte off althoughe they seeme not to be agaynst faythe because they presse with seru e burdens the religion whiche Christe woulde haue free This sentence belyke was to hotte for you you could not carie it Therest whose names you recite whiche you say you leaue off for breuitie sake I leaue to the iudgement of the Reader to consider wherefore they bee lefte out seeing that Augustine in whome you put so great trust answereth so little to your expectation This is certayne that bre tie whiche you pretende was in small commendations wyth you (3) Wordes of pleasure whiche make so often repetitions stuffe in diuers sentences of doctours and wryters to proue thinges that no man denieth translate whole leaues to so small purpose (4) Tu pe est doctori c. vpon so lighte occasions make so often digressions sometymes agaynst the vnlearnednesse sometymes agaynst the malice sometymes agaynst the intemperancie of speeche of the authors of the Admonition and euery hande whyle pulling oute the sworde vpon them and throughout the whole booke sporting your selfe with the quotations in the margent so that if all these were taken oute of your booke as winde out of a bladder we shoulde haue had it in a narrowe roome whiche is thus swelled into suche a volume and in steade of a booke of two shillings we should haue had a pamflet of two pence And whereas you say that you haue not alleaged these learned fathers for the authors of the Libell but for the wyse discrete humble and learned to them also I leaue it to consider vpon that whiche is alleaged by me First howe lyke a diuine it is to seeke for rules in the Doctours to measure the making of ceremonies by whiche you mighte haue had in the Scriptures there at the riuers heere at the fountayne vncertayne there whiche heere are certayne there parte false whiche are heere altogither true then to howe little purpose they serue you and laste of all howe they make agaynst you Io. Whitgifte I take that whiche you graunte bothe the first rule whiche is Quod neque contra fidem c. and the laste of the thrée with what interpretation soeuer you admitte them serue my turne very well and fully proue my present purpose Wherefore in graunting of them you haue graunted as muche to me as hitherto I haue desired Of the rules out of S. Paule I haue spoken before so haue I likewyse of the endes whiche the Churche must haue a respect vnto in hir decrées of orders ceremonies and gouernment wherof also I shall haue occasion to speake hereafter The seconde of the three rules you can not at any hande allowe but there is no cause why you should mislike it For Augustine did giue it as a rule méete for his tyme not for all tymes althoughe it may serue also for all times if his meaning be ioyned wyth it that is If that which is vniuersally obserued of the whole Churche be not repugnant to the worde of God and so it strengtheneth not one whit the Papistes pretended vniuersalitie In mattrrs of order ceremonies and gouernment it is sufficient if they be not repugnant to the scripture Neither do I thinke any great difference to be betwixt not repugnant to the worde of God and according to the worde That whiche is generally obserued and of that kinde that the rule meaneth is Decrees that perteyne to order comelinesse are not only humane not onely mans tradition and decree but Gods also M. Caluin teacheth you in his Institutions Cap. 13. Sect. 31. that suche kinde of decrees as pertayne to order and comelynesse are not onely humane but diuine And he bringeth in for an example knéeling at publike prayers S. Augustines meaning is that he would haue no factions or contentions in the Church or any man to trouble the peace thereof by setting him selfe agaynst lawfull orders and customes of the same otherwise I thinke that he neither forbiddeth to enquire or reason of any such matter But you think that Augustine was so adicted to such decrées of the Apostles that his meaning was to haue them receyued without all exception Surely I thinke that he was so persuaded in déede of such decrées as he meaneth and speaketh of in that place But for as muche as in suche rules he hath sundrie times made suche exceptions Quod neque cóntra fidem c. therfore this rule also is to be receyued of vs according to his meaning in all suche like rules God forbid that I should not take heede to those words of the Apostle hold him accursed which shall preache any other Gospell than that which he had preached For I take him that preacheth any other Gospell to preache contrarie and repugnant doctrine to the Apostle and vndoubtedly he that teacheth any thing to be necessary to saluation which is not comprehended in the scripture teacheth a false doctrine and cleane contrarie to the doctrine of the Scripture But you do not vse this place I am sure agaynst any thing that is héere sayde Our question is not of matters pertayning to saluation but of ceremonies of externall orders and discipline Whereof S. Paule speaketh nothing in that place I make them not matters of saluation neither are they I will tell you why I passed by that whych S. Augustine writeth to Ianuary Epist. 119. and is nowe recited by you because it nothing pertayneth to my purpose and yet it is rather with me than agaynst me But let me nowe aske you an other question why do you not truly report S. Augustines S. Augustine mangled and vntruely reported by T. C. words but mayme them both before behinde and in the middest for Augustine in the wordes that immediatly go before sayth That he was muche gréeued because that many things which were more profitably commaunded in the worde of God were neglected by reason of so many presumptuous obseruations of outwarde ceremonies the omitting whereof was more greeuously punished than the breaking of Gods commaundements And vpon this occasion he concludeth thus Omnia itaque talia quae neque sanctorum c. All suche ceremonies scilicet as be impediments to the obseruing of the
that that they whiche are most pure ought to be chosen c. For else why dothe he adde and saye sancimus we haue decreed and not rather they haue decréed But the words that follow are most playne quoties sacerdotalem sedem c. as oft as it shall happen that the roome of a Priest shall be voyd the inhabitants of that citie shall giue their voices of three c. for where did the Apostles euer appoint that thrée should stand in the election or what example haue you of it in the whole scripture so that you sée héere no one prescript rule or example of the Apostles in all poynts folowed but that order to be taken and law made by the Emperoure whiche he thought for that state and time of the Church to be most conuenient In Nouellis he séemeth to declare what is meant by the inhabiters of that citie for Constitutio 123. thus it is written Sequentes igitur ea c. Folowing therefore those thinges whiche are decreed in the holy Canons wee make this pragmaticall lawe by the whyche we decree that as ofte as it shall be necessary to ordeyne a Byshop the Cleargie and primates of the citie for the whiche the Byshop is to be ordeyned shall assemble togyther and the Euangelies being layde before them shall agree and determine vppon three persons And euery one of them shall sweare by the holy word of God and that to be enrolled with their determination that they haue not chosen these men eyther for rewarde or for promise or for friendship or fauour or for any other affection but only bycause they know them to be of the true and catholike faith and of honest conuersation and that they are aboue fiue and thirtie yeares olde So that it is plaine that by the inhabitants of the citie he meaneth the Cleargie and the chiefe persons of the citie It followeth in the same constitution Vt ex tribus illis personis quae d cretis hoc modo eliguntur melior ordinetur electione iudicio eius qui ordinandi ius habet That of those three which are in this sort chosen the best may be ordeyned by the election and iudgement of him that hath the authoritie to ordeyne And this last clause may be an interpretation also of the meaning of that constitution ex codice that is that the inhabitants choose thrée of whome the Metropolitane should choose one to be Byshop for it is euident that the Metropolitane had ius ordinandi and that lawe in codice differeth not one whit from this constitution The words of Carolus Magnus make with me rather than against me for in that he saith secundùm statuta canonum de propria dioecesi according to the statutes of the Canons of that diocesse he plainly signifyeth that in sundry diocesse there be sundry kinds and maners of elections else would he haue said secundùm statuta canonum Apost according to the statutes of the canons of the Apostles or sacrae scripturae of the holy scripture or such like But that which followeth in the same law maketh the matter manifest Praecipimus etiam omnibus c. we will also and commaund all those which are subiect to our iurisdiction that no man attempt to spoyle the priuiledges of the Churches Monasteries or the Churches themselues c meaning no doubt touching elections That of Ludouike dist 63. declareth also that it was in the Emperoures power to alter the manner of elections or to establishe them for else to what purpose were these lawes and Confirmations made All this verifyeth my assertion and proueth playnely that the manner and forme of calling and electing Ministers is and hathe bene in the power of the ciuill Magistrate to order as shall be moste expedient for the present state of the Churche if the Prince thinke it conuenient that the people shoulde haue voyces in suche elections they maye so haue if not there is no lawe of God dothe bynde them to it and that doe all those lawes of Emperours manifestly proue Chap. 6. the eight Diuision T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 4. 5. Platina also in the lyfe of Pope Adrian the seconde writeth that Ludouike the second by his letters (a) An yntruth for he only com mendeth them for so doing he doth not commaund them to do o. commaunded the Romains that they should choose their owne bishop not loking for other mens voyces which being strangers could not so well tell what was done in the common weale where they were strangers and that it apperteyneth to the citizens The same Platina witnesseth in the lyfe of Pope Leo the. 8. that when the people of Rome were earnest with the Emperour Otho the fyrst that he would take away one Pope Iohn y t liued verie licentiously riotously place an other the same Emperor answered that it perteined to the clergie and people to choose one and willed them that they should choose and he would approue it and when they had chosen Leo and after put him out without cause and chose one Pope Bennet he compelled them to take Leo againe Wherby appeareth that in those estates where Magistrates were Christian and where the estate was moste of all Monarchicall that is subiecte to ones gouernmente and also when the Church put out any without good cause that then the Magistrates should compell the Churches to doe their dutie In deede the Bishop of Rome gaue the election then into the Emperou his handes bycause of the lightnesse of the people as Platina maketh mention but that is not the matter for I doe nothing else here but shew that the elections of the ministers by the Churche were vsed in the times of the Emperours and by their consentes And seyng that Otho confessed it perteyned not vnto him it is to be doubted whether hee tooke it at the Bishop his handes Io. Whitgifte You haue not truly reported the wordes of Platina in the first place for he sayth Platina falsifyed by T. C not that the Emperour Ludouike did commaund the Romains that they should choose their own Bishop but that he commended them for their godlie and sound choise His wordes be these Superuenere à Ludouico Imperatore literae quibus Romanos admodùm laudat quòd summum Platina in vita Adriani 2. Pontificem sanctè integrè creassent There came letters from Ludouike the Emperoure wherin he praiseth the Romans very muche bicause they had holily and syncerely created the high Priest c. But Platina declareth how tumultuous an election that was and howe iniuriously the Emperours Embassadors were secluded from the same hauing therin interest and although the Emperoure was contente to put vp that iniurie and to commend that election peraduenture for some worldly respect yet it is manifest that then the Bishops of Rome began to vsurpe vppon the authoritie of the Emperour and to seclude him from hauing any interest in their elections M. Bale Bale speaking of this election
sayth Vi enim eligendi pontificis potestatem ad se tunc rapiebant Romani For the Romaines then tooke by force vnto them selues power to choose their Bishop The second place of Platina argueth the vndiscretenesse of the people both in placing and displacing their Bishop and the authoritie of the Emperour in taking this authoritie of placing and displacing from them when they doe abuse it for here hée put out Benet whom they had chosen placed Leo whom they had displaced wherby it appeareth that there was not then any one suche prescripte forme of electing the Bishop of Rome but that it was in the authoritie of the Emperour to abrogate alter or chaunge it All this is nothing to the improuing of my assertion for I denie not but that the people had interest in elections of Bishops in diuers places and especially in the Church of Rome a long tyme But this dothe not proue that there is any prescript rule in Scripture for the election of ministers whiche maye not be altered and chaunged from tyme to tyme as shall be moste conuenient for the presente state of the Churche naye whatsoeuer ye haue hitherto sayde proueth the contrarie Platina doth not write that Otho coufessed that the election of the Byshop of 〈◊〉 did not perteyne vnto him you should haue a care to report the words of the author truly it is one thing to say that the election of the Byshop perteyneth to the Cleargie and people another thing to say that it perteyned not to him for it might perteine to them al. And the same Platina in the life of Io. 13. saithe that after Iohn was condemned by a councell and therefore fled away the Emperoure Otho at the request of the Cleargie did create Leo Byshop of Rome his words are these Hanc ob causam Otho persuadente Platina in 〈◊〉 ta Ioan ▪ 13 clero Leonem Romanum ciuem Lateranensis ecclesiae Scriniarium Pontificem creat For thys cause Otho by the perswasion of the Cleargie chooseth Leo a Citizen of Rome and keper of the monuments of the Church of Laterane to be Byshop He further in that place declareth how the people after the Emperours departure deposed Leo and placed Benet and how the Emperoure by force compelled them to place Leo agayne That Otho the Emperoure did take this graunt at the Byshops hands that the election of the Byshop should be in him and not in the people M. Bale testifyeth in manifest words in the life of Leo. 8. where he saith thus After he tooke from the Cleargie and people of Rome the power of choosing their Byshop whiche Carolus Magnus had gyuen Bale in vita Leon. 8. vnto them before and by a Synodall decree did commit the same to Otho the Emperoure for the auoyding of seditions whiche were wont to be in these elections and Otho receyuing this graunt thankfully that he mighte shewe himselfe agayne beneficiall towards the Sea of Rome restored all things which Constantine is feyned to haue giuen c. In the which words also it is to be noted y t this libertie of choosing their Byshop was granted vnto the people and Cleargie of Rome by Carolus Magnus the which not only M. Bale testifyeth in this place but M. Barnes also in these words Leo the. 8. vnderstanding the wickednesse of the Romaines in obtruding their friends to the Church by bribes threatnings and other wicked deuises did restore the interest of choosing the Byshop to Otho the Emperoure Whereof I also conclude that it is in the power of the ciuill magistrate to take order for elections of ministers and that the consent of the people is not of any necessitie required therevnto Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Page 36. Sect. 6. And if the Emperours permitted the election of the Byshop to that Citie where it made most for their suretie to haue one of their owne appoyntment as was Rome whiche with their Byshops did oftentimes put the good Emperoures to trouble it is to be thought that in other places both cities and townes they did not denie the elections of ministers to the people besides that certaine of those constitutions are not of Rome but of any citie whatsoeuer And these Emperours were and liued betwene 500. and odde yeares vntill the very poynte of a thousande yeares after Christ so that hitherto this libertie was not gone out of y e Church albeit the Pop which brought in all tyrannie and went about to take all libertie from the Churches was now on horse back and had placed himselfe in that Antichristian seate Io. Whitgifte In that the Emperours did but permitte such elections to the people it is manifest that the interest was in them else why should they be said to haue permitted it In déed true it is that the Emperours so long did remitte of their interest in suche elections that afterwards when they would haue claymed their right therein they coulde not obteyne it but by violence were shut from all as the histories manifestly deelare Hitherto you haue proued nothing in question neyther haue you reasoned ad I de m T. C. hath not reason ad idem for you shoulde either haue proued that the election of ministers dothe of necessitie perteyne to the people or that the same manner of electing is conueniente for thys Church of England in this time and state both which I haue improued and do still vtterly denie neyther dothe any thing that you haue alleadged proue eyther of them Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 45. Sect. 3. Therefore this diuersitie of the state of the Church requireth a diue s kinde of gouernmente and another kinde of ordeyning ministers For this cause in Concilio Laodicensi whiche was Anno. 334. it was Concil Laodic decreed that the election of ministers shoulde not be permitted to the people T. C. Page 37. Sect. 1. 2. Those that write the Centuries (a) This is vntrue as shall appeare suspect this canon and doubt whether it be a bastard or no considering the practise of the Church But heere or euer you were aware you haue striken at your selfe For before you sayd that this order of choosing the minister by voyces of the Church was (b) An vntruth for I said not so but in the Apostles time and during the time of persecution And the firste time you can alleadge this libertie to be taken away was in the. 334. yeare of our Lord which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to reygne I say at the least bycause there be good authors that say that this councell of Laodicea was holdē Anno. 338. after the death of Ioninian the Emperoure and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines reygne and this councell Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder (c) The Churche was vnder persecution in Constantines time by the space of 13. yeares for
with false worshippings but they remained as yet in the doctrine Religion which they had receiued of the Apostles wherfore it might well be that a true minister might be chosen by their cōmon suffrages But after that the number of Christiās was encreased to an infinite multitude first schismes then generall ignorance blindnesse sundry kinds of superstitiō inuaded the Church c. there could no longer any true sincere minister be elected by the generall consent of the people c. wherefore for the conditiō of the time necessitie it self required that Princes Magistrates should commit this matter to certaine wise mē carefull for the Church by whose meanes meete pastors might be placed c. then he addeth that for the circumstāces of time as in all Churches the Apostolicall forme of electing ordeining cannot be restored ▪ so is there no cause why the minister of Christ being called to preach the Gospell by a godly Prince Magistrate shuld doubt of his calling whether it be right Christian or no. But he must remēber that where the state of the Church of Religiō is corrupt another way must be found out to remedie the same than that which was vsed in the Churches when all things was safe and sound In the end he declareth what maner of electing ordeining Ministers is vsed in y e church of Berne Neyther doth he in that place or any other that I knowe goe aboute to defende the election vsed in the Church where he was Minister by this that it approched vnto the election of the Primitiue Church as you report him to do Thus haue I truely reported Musculus his wordes in that place and his order than the whiche what can be more directly spoken to my purpose whiche is to proue that no one certaine maner and forme of electing Ministers is anywhere appointed to be generall and perpetuall but that the same may be altered accordyng to place tyme and persons and that the manner vsed in the Apostles time is not méete and conuenient for this time All this I saye Musculus hath plainely and by good reasons héere proued whyche he doth also as manifestly confirme in the title de Magistratibus For after that he hath declared that it perteineth to the Magistrate to appoint Church Ministers he sayth dices at secùs factum est in primis ecclesijs in quibus à ministris plebe eligebantur ecclesiarum antistites respondeo talis tum ecclesiarum erat status c. as it is in my answere For the subiection and bondage of the Church which you so often talke of this is my answere in few words that subiection to lawful Magistrates in matters lawful is no bondage to any but to such as thinke dutifull obedience to be seruitude bondage as the Anabaptistes do Why the people are debarred from electing which you call the Apostolicall forme of the choise of the Pastor you may learne by that which hath béen hetherto spoken if you be so desirous to learne as you would séeme to be That the minister may be well assured of the lawfulnesse of his calling though The minister may be assured of hys calling though he be not chosen by the people he be not called of the people you haue also hearde of Musculus who of purpose answereth that doubte He that is sure of an inwarde calling néede not to doubt of hys outward calling if it be according to the manner and forme of that Church wherein he is called That the people doe as willingly now submit them selues to their Pastors and gouernours though they haue no interest in electing of them as they did then experience teacheth in all places where there be good and vertuous pastors except onely in such as you and yours haue set on fire with contention and contempte You saye to assigne the cause hereof to the Christian Magistrate c. We giue vnto the Magistrate that which of duetie belongeth vnto him in the respecte that he is a Christian Magistrate and hath the chiefe gouernment of the Church in all causes ouer all persons and you desirous of popularitie withdraw from the Magistrate that which is due vnto him giuing the same to the people and vulgar sort You counte it an abridging of the libertie of the Church a diminishing of the pastors assurance of his calling a withdrawing of the people from the pastor to be shorte a brynging of the people into bondage for the Magistrate to mainteine his right in vsing that kinde of appointing Ministers which he thinketh to be most profitable for the Churche committed vnto him and is not this to doe great iniurie to the office of the Magistrate Why doe you not plainely say that the Quéenes Maiestie abridgeth the libertie of the Church diminisheth the pastors assurance of his calling withdraweth the people from their pastor vrgeth and constraineth them to that which is voluntarie bringeth them into bondage bicause she will not suffer them to haue fredome in the elections of their Bishops and Pastors for this is your plaine meaning But temper your popular and vndutifull speaches the true The true libertie of the Church libertie of the Church which is libertie of conscience and fredome from false doctrine errors and superstitions and not licence for euery man to doe what himselfe liweth was neuer more in any Church pastors neuer had better cause to be assured of their calling the people at no time more bound to cleaue to their pastors neuer lesse cause to complaine of vrging constraint seruitude or bondage than they haue at this daye vnder hir Maiestie but you go about to perswade them to the contrary which where vnto it tendeth would be in time considered Musculus saythe that this manner of ordering Ministers for he doth not call it T. C. transfei reth y t corruptions of mens myndes to the gouernment forced elections is a remedie against corrupted states not in respect of laws gouernment Magistrate or Religion by authoritie established but of menues myndes that are corrupted with errors contentions and sinister affections and this is no dishonor to the ciuill gouernor For if in a kingdome there be many wayward and disordered persons the fault is in themselues and not in the Magistrate nor in the kind of gouernment but a great commendation rather when as by the diligence of the Magistrate and profitable kinde of gouernment such disordered persons be corrected and reformed or at the least kept vnder and restrained Is it a dishonor to the Prince that where as she founde the whole Realme corrupted in doctrine now it is otherwyse though not in the heartes of many yet in externall forme and publike regiment Wherefore you do but subtilly I will not saye contemptuously transfer that to the Magistrate and kynd of gouernment which Musculus meaneth of the corrupt mindes and affections of the common sort of men You adde that when it is sayd that the
muche as one word of any Bishop of Cōstantinople And y t it may appeare how far you ar ouerséene in this place you shal vnderstād that the last Emperour of whom Eusebius maketh any mētion in these bookes is Dioclesian who came to the Empire Anno. 288. but Constantinople was builded Anno. 335. So that by your assertion the Byshop of Constantinople was confirmed aboue 40. yeares before Constantinople was Chap. 7. the. sixte Diuision T. C. Page 42. Lin. 2. Sect. 1. I will adde only one place which if it be more (*) Part riunt montes c. bitter than the rest and cut the quicke more neare you shall not be angrie with me but first with those that were the Authors of it and then with him that wrote it Eusebius in the sixth booke speaking of Origen which was admitted not of one Byshop but of many Byshops to teach sheweth how the Byshops were reprehended by the Byshop of Alexandria called Demetrius bycause they had admitted him (a) An vntruth as will appeare without the election of the Presbyterie of the Church which were the chiefe in the election in euery Church and vnto the whiche the Churches did committe the gouernment of themselues in euery seuerall towne and citie and saith that it hath not bin heard that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is that the lay men should teach when the Byshops were present Whereby it is euident that he counted him (b) Vntruth for O gea was yet a lay man and not admitted minister by any a lay man which was only admitted by the Byshops although they were many not being first elected by the presbyterie of that Church whereof he was the teacher Io. Whitgifte The terrible preface that is here prefixed would make any man quake that is not acquainted with such vayne bragges But soft man awhile you do but dreame for there is no such matter in that booke of Eusebius Did you neuer heare tell of any that T. C. smiteth at others but woundeth himselfe labouring to smite at another haue deadly wounded themselues I beléeue it will fall so out with you in this bitter and sharpe place and then shall not I neede to be angry with you you shall haue more cause to chafe with your selfe For answer to the place I say it is altogither by you falsifyed and most vntruly Eusebius fa sityed by T. C. alleadged the only thing that Demetrius found fault with was bycause Origen being a lay man did teache in the Churche Byshops being present for he saithe it was neuer heard that lay mē should teach in the churches Byshops being present But what is sayde to this nescimus quomodò c. wherein he affirmeth we know not how that thing which is not Eu. li. 6. ca. true seeing there may be found diuers who when they were able to profyte the brethren and that the holy Byshops had exhorted them to instruct the people did after this sorte teach in the Church As Euelpis was required to do at Laranda by Neon and Paulinus at Iconium by Celsus and at Synada Theodorus by Atticus whiche were all blessed brethren And it is very likely that this thing was done also in other places whiche we know not of Yea Demetrius himselfe suffered him to do the like in Alexandria as it is manifest in sundry places of that booke and euen in the end of the same chapter He retourneth to Alexandria and doth againe employ himselfe to his accustomed diligence in teaching But bycause this place is so confidently auouched and so vntruly I will set it downe as it is in Eusebius lib. 6. cap. 20. where he speaking of Origen saith thus In the meane time by reason of a greate warre begonne in that citie leuing Alexandria and thinking that he could not safely abide in Aegypt he went into Palestina and remayned at Caesaria where also he was requested of the Byshops of that countrie that he would dispute and expound the holy scriptures before the whole Church when as yet he was not ordeyned minister The whiche thing is hereby manifest for that Alexander the Byshop of Hierusalem and Theoctistus Byshop of Caesaria writing to Demetrius of him do after this sort render an accompt of that deed Furthermore he addeth this also in his letters that it was neuer heard of neyther yet at any time seene that lay men did teach in the Church Byshops being present wherein we know not how he affirmeth that thing which is not true c. As it is set downe before What one word is there here that sheweth how the Byshops were reprehended by the Byshop of Alexandria called Demetrius bycause they had admitted Origen without the election of the presbyterie of the Churche whiche were the chiefe in the election in euery Church and vnto the which the Churches did committe the gouernment of themselues in euery seuerall towne and citie c. as you affirme Nay is there any thing sounding that way the only cause why Demetrius reproueth them as I haue said is bycause they suffered Origen in their presence to interpret the scriptures in the Churche being as yet Origen was then indeede a lay man but a lay man And yet you sée how Demetrius is reproued for that also how by sundry examples it is there shewed that it is no rare thing for a lay man to interpret the scriptures in the Church the Byshop being present if he be there vnto called by the Byshop Is this your bitter place is this that terrible cutter Indéede it maketh your doings vncyphered and shrewdly woundeth you if you can well consider it But to make the matter yet more plaine Euseb. in the same booke and. 23. chapter sheweth how Origen afterwards accepit presbyterij gradum in Caesaria palestinae ab eius loci Euse. lib. 6. 23. Episcopis was made minister in Caesaria Palestinae of the Byshops of that countrie The which thing Demetrius misliked also not for any iust cause but only of malice for although Demetrius at the firste esteemed well of Origen and bare good will vnto hym yet afterwarde when he saw him maruellously to prosper and to become very famous and well accompted of he then sought meanes not only to discredite him but those also which had preferred him to the ministerie laying to his charge that which he had done being a boy that is gelding of himselfe as Eusebius doth at large declare lib. 6. cap. 8. You sée therfore how vntruly you haue reported Eusebius and that there is no suche cause by him expressed why Demetrius reproued the Byshops as you feyne to be But I partly smell your meaning which I suppose to be this that all we whiche are admitted into the ministerie by the Byshops withoute your presbyterie are but lay men whereby you would insinuate that all those which haue bin baptised by vs are not baptised bycause you say that it is of the
contrary to the present state and that enelineth to libertie would vsually elect suche as would féede their humours So that the Prince neyther should haue quiet gouernment neyther could be able to preserue the peace of the Church nor yet to plant that religion that he in conscience is perswaded to be ncere As for the authoritie of isalowing their elections which you giue vnto him it is but an intollerable trouble and besides that he shall not vnderstand their doings or if he doth yet may he not depriue them of their libertie in choosing so that you make his authoritie in effect nothing Moreouer his Churches and whole kingdome shoulde be filled with Anabaptists Libertines Papists Puritanes and an hundreth sects mo or euer he were aware for who will complayne of him whome the people do phansi be he neuer so vnméete a person 3 My thirde reason is taken out of your owne booke Fol. 25. where you say that the If the people should choose the inferioure in gifts shuld be iudge of the superiour Pag. 25. lin 3. Archdeacon may not be iudge of the aptnesse and ablenesse of the Pastor bycause he is inferi re to the Pastor both in calling and gifts which if it be true then surely may not the people haue any thing to do in the election of the Pastor being in all respects much more inferioure vnto him than the Archdeacon is for to haue interest in electing is to be admitted to iudge of his meetenesse and aptnesse that is to be admitted 4 It would be a cause why many Churches shoulde be longer destitute of their Popular elections a cause of long want of pastors c Pastors than is conuenient for if an vnméete man were chosen and an appeale made to the next Pastours and from them to the next Synode prouinciall and then the parishioners that will not yéeld excommunicated and after excōmunication complayned of to the Prince and then driuen to a new election and in the same peraduēture as wayward as they were before whilest I say all this were in doing besides the maruellous schismes contentions brawlings and hatred that must of necessitie in the meane time be among them two or thrée yeares might soone be spent for all these things cannot be in due order well done in lesse time al which time the parishes must be destitute of a pastor burne with those mischiefes that I haue before recited 5 It would make the gouernment of the Church popular which is the worst kind Popular election a cause of a popular gouernment of gouernment that can be For it is true that M. Caluine saith cap. 20. Instit. Procliuis est à regno c. The fall from a kingdome into a tyrannie is very redy and the change from the gouernment of the best into the Factions of a fewe is not much harder but the fall from a popular state into a sedi ion is of all other most easie 6 The people as I haue said before through affection and want of iudgement are The people easily led by affection easily brought by ambitious persons to giue their consent to vnworthy men they are soone moued by the request of their frends and of such as they eyther feare or loue to do anything as may appeare in sundry things cōmitted vnto thē of great importāce yea sometime when by oth they are bound to deale without al affection or parcialitie 7 By this meanes they would thinke to haue their pastor bound vnto them so that A hindrance to the Pastor in doing his duty they would take it disdainefully to be reproued by him according as his duetie would require Againe the pastoure considering their good will in preferring of him woulde not so freely 〈◊〉 them nor willingly displease them 8 To conclude the people are for the most part rude and ignorant carelesse also in The people vnfit to be iudges in such cases Chrys. 2. in 〈◊〉 suche matters and more me te to be ruled than to rule For as Chrysostome de eth Populus est quiddam tumultus c. The people is a certaine thing full of tumult and sturres consisting and rashly compacted for the most part of folly oftentimes tossed with variable and contrary iudgement like to the waues of the sea c. These and a great number mo reasons may be alleadged why the people are to be s uded from the election of their Pastors and yet do I not so vtterly seclude them from such elections but that if they haue any thing to obiect agaynste him that is to be ordeyned they might be heard which order is prescribed in the booke of making ministers and that is asmuche as can be required Althoughe I doe not condemne those Churches wherin this is safely committed vnto them for I only speake of the present estate of this Churche of Englande The reason why I doe thinke the Bishops to be the fittest to haue both the allowing and ordeyning of such as are to be ministers I haue expressed in my answere to the Admonition And they are not as yet by better reasons confuted Of ministers hauing no pastorall charge of ceremonies vsed in ordeining ministers of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes Tract 4. Of ministers admitted a place being not voyd Chap. 1. The first Diuision The Admonition The seuenth Then none admitted to the ministerie but (u) Act. 1. 25. a place was voyd afore hand to which he should be called Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 47. Sect. 1. 2. TO proue this you cite in the margent the first of the Acts wher it is declared howe Mathias was chosen in the place of Iudas to make vp the number of the. xij Apostles Surely this is but a slender reason Mathias was chosen into the place of Iudas Ergo no man must be admitted into the ministerie excepte a place before hande be voyde to the which he should be called Euery meane sophister will laugh at the childishnesse of this argument Mathias was chosen to be an Apostle and not to any certaine cure and therfore this example proueth nothing T. C. Page 42. Sect. 4. The reason is of greater force than you woulde seeme to make it for as the. xij place was to Mathias so is a certain Church vnto a Pastor or Minister as the Apostles ordeined none vnto that place before it was voyd so ought not the Bishop ordeyn any vntil there be a Churche voyde and destitute of a pastor And as the Apostles ordeined not any Apostle further than they had testimonie Act. ▪ of the word of God as it appeareth that S. Peter proceedeth by that rule to the election so ought no Bishop ordeyn any to any function which is not in the scripture appointed But there are by the word of God at this tyme no ordinarie ministers Ecclesiastical which be not local and tyed to one congregation therfore this sending abrode of ministers whiche haue no places is vnlawfull Io. Whitgifte As
adde ministeries they may also take away for those both belong to one authoritie (b) The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but they can not take away those ministeries that God hath placed in his Churche therefore they cannot adde to those that are placed in the Churche And this foundation I thought first to lay or euer I entred into M. Doctours not reasons but authorities not of God but of men in confuting of which there will fall forth also other arguments against both these offices of Archbyshop and Archdeacon Io. Whitgifte Your whole booke is for the moste parte buylded vpon that false founded argument The Replie grounded vpō the petition of the principle that is called Petitio principij For this will not be graunted vnto you which you haue so oftentimes repeated and wherevpon all your arguments are grounded that to appoynt Archbyshops or Archdeacons is to appoynt a new ministery It is as I tolde you before but to kéepe an order in the ministery and in the Churche and to execute that office of gouernment which the Apostles themselues did When Hierome sayde That for the auoyding of Schismes the ministers appoynted one among themselues to gouerne the rest Did he meane that they instituted a new ministerie A man may sée by this how vnable you are to defend your cause seing you are enforced to frame principles vnto your selfe agaynst the which you may reason that the ignorant reader may thinke your quarell to be iuste But nowe to your argument The Maior is not true for men may adde ministeries to those that be and breake not the will and commaundement of God bicause they may be helpes and furtheraunces to those ministeries that God hath appoynted But he can not take away such ministeries as God hath placed in his Churche to be perpetuall without breache of his will and commaundement Moreouer besides those ministeries that God hath appoynted in his woorde as necessary at all times there may be some added that be cōuenient for some times and yet the Churche that hath authoritie to adde these hath not the lyke authoritie to take awaye the other So that your Maior lacketh proofe Your Minor also is ambiguous for man can not take away those ministeries that God hath appoynted to be perpetuall in the Churche but he may take away those that be but temporall as occasion serueth If your foūdation be no sounder than this that you haue hitherto layde surely your buylding cannot long stande and M. Doctors authorities may well ynough encounter with all your reasons That the names of Metropolitane Archbishop c. be not Antichristian Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 65. Sect. 1. Firste therefore I proue that the names of Metropolitane and The antiquitie of Archbishops Archbishop c. be not Antichristian names that is names inuented by Antichrist but most aūciēt yea that they were in the Church lōg before the Gospell was publiquely embraced by any Prince or in any kingdome Polidore Virgil lib. 4. De inuentoribus rerum Cap. 12. saith that Clement in his boke entituled Compēdiarium Christianae religionis testifieth that the Apostle Peter did in euery Prouince appoynt one Archbyshop whom all other Byshops of the same prouince shoulde obey He sayth also that the same Archbishop was called Primas Patriarcha and Metropolitanus Peter was not Antichrist Ergo the name of an Archbishop is no Antichristian name T. C. Pag. 66. Sect. 4. 5. 6. 7. Pag. 67. Sect. 1. 2. Now I will come to the examining of your witnesses whereof some of them are so bored in the eares and branded in their foreheades that no man neede to feare any credite they shall gette before any iudge wheresoeuer or before whom soeuer they come but in the Romish courte and the Papistes onely excepted For to let go Polidore Uirgile bycause whatsoeuer he sayth he sayth of the credite of another let vs come to Clement which is the author of this you speake And what is he Is there any so blind that knoweth not that this was nothing lesse than Clement of whom S. Paule speaketh and which some thinke was the first Bishop of Rome ordeined by Peter and Phil. 4. Tertul. de praescript aduers. haeret not rather a wicked helhounde into whome the Lorde had sent Satan to be a lying spirite in his mouth to deceiue them for their vnthankful receyuing of the gospell And he must witnesse for the Archbishop a worthie witnesse For as all that Popish Hierarchie came out of the bottomlesse pit of hell so to vpholde the Archbishop the necke of it wherevpon the Romish monster standeth are raysed vp from hell bastards Clemens and Anacletus and indeede as it may appeare the very naturall sonnes of Satan and the sworne souldiours of Antichrist A man would haue thought that the Bishop of Salisburie M. Iuel had so pulled of the painting of the face of this Clement that all good men woulde haue had him in detestation so farre of would they haue bene to haue alledged out of him to proue any thing that is in controuersie The Bishop alledgeth both Eusebius and S. Hierome to proue that none of those woorkes In the replie to M. Hard. which go in his name are his and although the proofes be strong which the Bishop vseth beeing the witnesse of vnsuspected witnesses yet bicause the law although it allow two witnesses notwithstanding doth like the better of three I will set downe here also Ireneus which was a great while before them both and followed hard after the time of the true and vncounterfeyte Clement Li. 3. cap. 3. and therefore coulde best tell of him and of his wrytings and yet he maketh mention but of one Epistle which vpō occasion amongst the Corinthians he wrote to them Indeed in an other place of that booke he sheweth that it is verie probable that Clementalso eyther wrote or turned the Epistle to the Hebrues Nowe if that Epistle to the Counthes were extant we shoulde easily see by comparing those that are nowe in his name wyth that what a misshapen thing this is And if so be that Ireneus coniecture be good that Clement was the authour or interpreter of the Epstle to the Hebrues then what horrible iniurie is done to the holy Ghost while the same is supposed the wryter of thys booke to the Hebrues which is the authour of suche beggerie as thys Clement brought into the worlde And I pray you do you holde that it is the true Christian religion which that booke conteyneth Could none of these considerations driue you from the testimonie of this Clement It goeth verie harde with the Archbishop when these Clements and Anacletusses must be brought to vnderprop him But what if there be no such booke as this is which you name when you say in his booke intituled Compendiarium religionis Christianae it is like you know not him nor what he saith when you cannot tell so much as his name
to shewe that in citing him in this manner and forme that I doe I doe no otherwyse than other godly and learned men haue done You shal vnderstande ere I come to an ende that I haue not alleadged him for any néede Your argument to proue that Iames was no Archebishop bicause Eusebius and other doe call him Bishop and not Archebishop is of the same nature that your other arguments be that is ab authoritate negatiuè and therefore must be sent away with the same answere Whether the Apostles placed Iames and Simeon at Ierusalem or no is not the question But you are something deceyued in your quotation for you should in the place of the. 22. chapter of Eusebius haue noted the. 11. chapter The place of Ireneus thoughe it make not agaynst any thing that I haue spoken if it were as you doe alleage it yet muste I tell you that it is by you not truely vnderstoode For Ireneu dothe not saye that the Apostles dyd togither in euery place Irenaeu appoynte Bishops but he sayth Secundum successiones Episcoporum quibus illi eam quae in vnoqueque loco est ecclesiam tradiderunt According to the succession of Bishops to whome they committed the Churche that was in euery place Meaning that euery one of the Apostles dyd appoynt Bishops in those Churches whiche they had planted as S. Paule did at Ephesus and Creta And notwithstanding that in some Churches the Apostles togither dyd place Bishops yet that in other Churches whiche they planted Sometime one Apostle did appoynt Bishops Tertulli de praescript they dyd the same seuerally it is manyfest not onely by these examples of Timothie and Titus but of sundry other whereof we maye reade in ecclesiasticall histories and namely of * Policarpus made Bishop of Smirna by S. Iohn And you your selfe testifie the same of S. Iohn out of Eusebius euen in the nexte section Moreouer it can not be gathered eyther out of the wordes of Ireneus or any other ecclesiasticall historie that the Apostles dyd place Bishops any where but in the chiefe and principall Townes and Cities committing vnto them the gouernment of other Uillages and Townes and the appoynting of seuerall Pastors for them as it is also euident in the foresayde examples of Timothie and Titus and the wordes of Ireneus importe the same But if they had in euery Hamlet placed Pastors yet dothe it not followe but that there mighte be some one in a Dioces or Prouince by whome these Pastors shoulde be directed As Timothie at Ephesus Titus at Crete Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. vlt. And heere you put me in remembrance of an other argument agaynst the Archbishop which I will frame after this sorte (a) The maior false If there should be any Archbishop in any place the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the person or minister and his excellencie or in respect of the magnificence of the place but the most excellent ministers that euer were in the most famous places were no Archebishops but Bishops onely therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any Archebishop For if there were euer minister of a congregation worthy that was Iames. If there were euer any Citie that ought to haue this honor as that the minister of it shoulde haue a more honorable title than the ministers of other cities and townes that was Ierusalem where the sonne of God preached and from whence the Gospell issued out into all places And afterwarde that Ierusalem decayed and the Churche there Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bin since whiche also deserued great honour for that there the Disciples were first called Christians but neyther was that called the first and chiefest Churche neyther the ministers of it called the Arche or principall Bishops Io. Whitgifte It is a straunge matter that you should so grossely erre in making arguments séeing you haue taken vpon you so great skill in that Arte. But I will not be occupied in examining the forme of it Your maior is not true for suche offices maye be appoynted rather in the respecte of the time and of the persons that are to be gouerned Why these offices are appoynted than of the worthynesse of the minister or the dignitie of the plate and therefore your maior doth not conteyne a perfect and sufficient distribution Agayne the worthinesse of the person and the dignitie of the place be not at all the causes why suche offices shoulde be appoynted in the Churche but the suppression of sectes the peace of the Churche and the good gouernment of the same The worthinesse of the person may make him méete for suche an office and the place may be conuenient for suche officers to remayne in but neyther of them bothe can be a sufficient cause why suche offices should be appoynted I knowe the worthiest cities haue had the preheminence in suche matters but it was bicause they were the most méetest places for that purpose and the place dothe onely adde one péece of title to the office but it is not the cause of the office Lastly you haue not yet proued that there was no Archbishops in those places or that Iames had not that office Chap. 2. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Lin. 9. This is contrar to that whiche was immediatly affirmed before And Eusebius to declare that this order was firme and durable sheweth in the thirde booke 13. chapter that Sainct Iohn the Apostle whiche ouerliued the residue of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in euery Citie Io. Whitgifte This is no reason at all S. Iohn ordeyned Bishops in euery Churche therfore there was no one Bishop superiour vnto them to gouerne and directe them in matters of The office of an archbishop in S. Iohn discipline order a d doctrine if occasion serued I thinke that S. Iohn him selfe was directer and gouernour of them all and in effecte their Archebishop And that dothe manifestly appeare in that thirde booke and. 23. chapter of Eusebius For thus he sayth In those dayes Iohn the Apostle and Euangelist whome the Lorde loued lyued Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 2 ▪ as yet in Asia whiche did gouerne the Churches there after he was returned out of the Isle from banishement after the death of Domitian And a little after he saythe That he went beeing desired ad vicina Gentium loca vt partim constitueret Episcopos partim tota ecclesias componeret partim clerum ex his quos spiritus sanctus iudicasset sorte deligeret Vnto the places of the Gentiles adioyning partly that he mighte appoynte Bishops partly that he might establishe whole Churches partly that he mighte by lotte choose suche into the Cleargie as the holy Ghost shoulde assygne So that whether he had the name of Archbishop or no certayne it is that he had the gouernment and direction of the rest and that he appoynted Bishops and other Ministers Eusebius dothe
And Hierome saith that y e cause why among y e Bishops one was chosen to gouerne y e rest was to remedie schismes Do you not perceiue how these two fathers ioyne in one truthe directly affirme y e self same matter It is true y t time corrupteth therfore much more occasion is offered to appoint gouernment according to y e times least the corruptions preuaile get the vpper hand for this cause Hierome saith that vpon these corruptions of time the Church was constreined to appoint this order Chap. 3. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 79. Sect. 3. And here I must put M. Doctor in remēbrance how vnfitly he hath dedicated his booke vnto y e church which hath so patched it peeced it of a number of shreddes of the Doctors y t a sentence of A friuolous di from the matter the scripture either truly or fal ly alleaged is as it were a Phenix in this booke If he would haue had y e church beleue him he oughte to haue setled their iudgement grounded their faith vpon the scriptures which are y e only foūdations whervpon y e church may build Now he doth not only not giue thē ground to stand of but he leadeth them into wayes which they cannot follow nor come after him For except it be those which are learned besides haue the meanes abilitie to haue the bookes which are here cited which are y e least smalest portion of the Church how can they know that these things be true which are alleaged as I haue said if they could know yet haue they nothing to stay themselues vpon quiet their conscience in allowing y e which M. Doctor woulde so faine haue them like of Therfore he might haue much more fitly dedicated his booke vnto y e earned and riche which haue furnyshed lybraries Io. Whitgifte M. Doctor hath brought more scriptures thā you haue answered as in the sequele it wil fal out although as I said before in such matters y e scripture hath not expresly Tract 2. determined any certeintie but hath left them to the Church to be appointed according to the circumstances of time place and person as I haue proued both out of the scriptures learned writers intend to do hereafter more particularly whē I come to entreat of your Seigniorie If al other men should do as you haue done that is borrow the sayings of the Doctors out of other mens collections not read y e authors thē selues a few bokes wil serue with very smal charges they mightbe prouided The patches peeces shreds of Doctors that be in my boke are taken out of the Doctors thēselues they be whole sentences faithfully alledged But the shreds of doctors that your boke is stuffed with you haue borrowed of other you haue falsifyed thē cut them off by the half you haue fathered vpon them that which is not to be founde in them and the words of late writers you haue set downe vnder the name of ancient fathers and the scriptures you haue falsely alleaged and vntruely translated I would not gladly haue burst out into this accusation at this time being from the matter but that you haue vrged me therevnto Chap. 3. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Page 79. Sect. 4. 5. 6. Hierome saith y e at the first a Bishop an elder which you call a priest were all one but afterward through factions schismes it was decreed y t one should rule ouer y e rest Now I say against this order that y e Bishop should beare rule ouer all y e which our sauiour Christ saith vnto y e Phariseis from y e beginning it was not so therfore I require that y e first order may stand which was Contr Prax. that a Bishop elder were all one And if you place so great authoritie against the institution of God in a mortall man heare what Tertullian saith vnto you That is true whatsoeuer is first and that is false whatsoeuer is latter Hierome you confesse y t this was first that y e Bishop was all one with y e elder first also by y e Tertullians meaning falsified word of God thē I conclude y t that is true You both do likewise confesse y t it came after that one bare rule ouer the rest then I conclude y e that is false for all that is false that is latter Furthermore Hierome in the same place of Titus saith after this sort As y e elders know themselues to be subiect by a custome of the Churche vnto him that is set ouer them so the Byshops must knowe that they are greater than the elders rather by custome than by any truth of the instatution of the Lord and so they ought to gouerne the Church in common Io. Whitgifte It followeth after in my answere to the Admonition that there was superioritie among the ministers of the word e ē in the Apostles time which I 〈◊〉 by the riptures other testimonies it is also 〈◊〉 that great factions schi mes did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Church euē in the Apostles time therfore most like these that Icrome sp keth of to haue bin thē determined The which to be true his words ad 〈◊〉 touching y e church of Alexādria doth euidently declare for he saith y t this order was kept 〈◊〉 frō S. Marke But admit these were not true which you wil neuer be able to proue yet your argument is of no force the place of Tertullian is not vnderstanded for Tertullian in that boke after he hath repeated the rule of faith which is to beleeue in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ one God and in his sonne Iesus Ch ist c. he saith that this rule hath come from the beginning of the Gospell euen before all former heretikes muche more before 〈◊〉 that was but yesterdaye as well the posteritie of all heretikes as the verye noueltie of 〈◊〉 which was of late will proue VVhereby iudgement may hereof be indifferently gyuen against all heresies that that is true whatsoeuer is first that count rfeit whatsoeuer is last Wherby it is e ident that Tertullians rule is to be vnderstanded in matters of saluation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to be 〈◊〉 s ode 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gin veland of faith not in matters of ceremonies kinds of gouernment which thing he himselfe in plaine words declareth in his booke de virginibus velandis where in lyke maner after he hath recited this rule of faith he addeth this lawe of aith remaining other things of discipline conuersation admit newnesse of correction the grace of God working and going forward euen to the end So that Tertullian thinketh that matters of ceremonies and discipline may be altered y e rule of faith remaining 〈◊〉 notwithstanding his former rule If you will not haue this to be the meaning of Tertulliā then will I reason thus The reason of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
in Pontus Bithinia Lib. 1. Tom. 2. And what other office then those hath the Archbishop Therfore though the name of Archbishop was not among the Apostles yet was his office function And notwithstanding that part of the office of the Apostles is ceased which consisted in planting founding of Churches throughout y e world yet this part of gouernment direction of Churches remaineth still and is committed to Byshops Therefore saith Ambrose in the. 4. ad Ephe. Apostoli Episcopi sunt Apostles are Byshops Ambro. in 4. Ephe. bicause Bishops do succeede them in preaching the word gouerning y e church Now if I shal also proue by good authoritie that among the Apostles themselues Superioritie among the Apostles and in their tymes there was one chiefe though he were not called Archbishop then I suppose that it will not seeme straunge vnto you that in this state of the Church it should be cōuenient to haue the like in euery Prouince or Diocesse Ierome in his first Ierom. aduers. Ioni lib. 1. booke aduersus Iouinianum sayth thus Yet among the twelue one is chosen that a head being appoynted occasion of schisme might be remoued And least ye should wipe this away with your accustomed deprauing of the Authour I will ioyne vnto him the testimonie of M. Caluine in his Institutions Cap. 8. who writeth thus That the twelue Caluine Apostles had one among them to gouerne the rest it was no marueyle for nature requireth it and the disposition of man will so haue it that in euerie companie although they be all equall in power yet that there be one as gouernour by whome the rest may be directed There is no court without a Consull no Senate without a Pretor no Colledge without a president no societie without a master M. Bucer likewise in his booke De regno Christi hath these wordes Now we see by the perpetuall obseruation of the Churches euen from Bucer the Apostles themselues that it hath pleased the holy Ghost that among the Ministers to whome especially the gouernment of the Church is committed one should haue the chiefe eare both of the Churches and whole ministerie and that he shoulde go before all other in that care and diligence for the which cause the name of a Bishop is peculiarly giuen to such chiefe gouernors of Churches c. Againe vpon the. 4. to the Ephe. he sayth as before is alledged Paule in the Acts called the same men Bishops Ministers whē he called for the Idem Ministers of Ephesus to Miletum yet bicause one among them did rule and had the chief eare of the Church the name of a Bishop did properly belong vnto him Neither was his age alwayes considered so that he were vertuous and learned as we haue an example in Timothie being a yong man Thus then you sée that euen amongst the Apostles themselues and in the Churches in their tymes there were some that had the chiefe authoritie ouer the rest and to this ende especially that schismes and contentions might be compounded and the rest might be directed whiche are the chiefe partes of the Archbishops office and therefore all this that you haue here sayde falleth flat to the ground And yet still I do affirme that if it had not béene so in the Apostles time yet might it haue bene both lawfully and necessarily at other tymes Chap. 3. the. 22. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 1. At Antioch there rose a great daūgerous heresie that had in a maner infected al the Churches which shaked the very foūdation of the saluation of gods childē that was whether faith were sufficient to iustifie without circūcision The matter was disputed of both sides it could not be agreed of What do they now Do they ordein some Archbishop Archprophet Archapostle or any one chief to whō they will referre the coutrouersie or vpon whō they wil depend Nothing lesse And if they would haue had the controuersies ended by one what deuine was there euer or shall there be more fitter for that purpose than S. Paule which was amongst them Why do they send abrode for remedie when they had it at home Why with great charges and long iourneyes which they might haue had without charges or one foote set out of the doore what do they then They sende Paule and Barnabas to Ierusalem as if the lesser townes should send to the Churches of the Uniuersities of London to desire their help in the determining of the controuersie And what is Paule Barnabas ambassage is it to desire the iudgement or mind of some one It must needes be answered with S. Luke that they came to know the resolution of the Church and yet there were the Apostles whereof euerie one was better able both sharpely to see and to iudge incorruptly without affection than any Archbishop that euer was If therefore in so great aboundance and ouerflowing of the giftes of God and in that tyme when as controuersyes might haue beene referred without daunger of error vnto one onely this ministerie of one aboue all was not thought good now when the giftes are lesse and the daunger of error more to make an Archbishop for the deciding of controuersyes and auoyding of schismes is a thing so straunge that I am not able to see the reason of it For to which soeuer of the Apostles the controuersie had bene referred it is certaine that he would haue giuen a true sentence of it Io. Whitgifte It was tolde you before that an Archbishop of himselfe alone doth not take vpon Supr diui 〈◊〉 him to determin matters of doctrine in controuersie But if any such contention arise either he determineth the matter according to the law rule alreadie by the Church established or else with the consent of the Prince doth he set an order in the same by a prouinciall and lawfull Synode in the which he is the chiefe as some one of the Apostles were in such like assemblies according to that which I haue before declared therfore all this speach might well haue bene spared Your argument also is faultie in two respectes first it is Ab authoritate negatiuè or à non facto ad non ius which is good Neque in diuinis neque in humanis neyther in diuine nor in humane matters Secondly you go about to conclude an vniuersall doctrine of one particular and singular example which at no time nor in any matter is tollerable Moreouer it rather iustifyeth my assertion for it euidently proueth that euerie The example of T. C. is rather against him than for him Parish within it selfe hath not absolute authoritie to ende controuersies but that it behoueth them in such weightie matters to resort to the chiefe Church as they now did to Ierusalem This example therefore if you well consider it is directly against you neither doth it in any respect proue that there was then no chiefe gouernour or guide of the
into errour c. Here you do eyther ignorantly Difference betwixt a king and a tyrant or wilfully confounde Monarchiam with tyrannie For betwixt a king and a tyrant this is one difference that a king ruleth according to the lawes that are prescribed for him to rule by and according to equitie and reason a tyrant doth what him list followeth his owne affections contemneth lawes and sayth Sic volo sic iubeo stat pro ratione voluntas So I will so I commaund my pleasure standeth for reason Now therefore to vse those reasons to ouerthrow a lawful Monarchie which are onely proper to wicked tyrannie is eyther closely to accuse the gouernment of this Church of England of tyrannie or maliciously by subtile dealing and confounding of states to procure the The ecclesiasticall gouernment in this Church not tyrannicall but lawfull misliking of the same in the hearts of the subiects There is neyther Prince nor Prelate in this land that ruleth after their pleasure and lust but according to those lawes and orders that are appointed by the common consent of the whole realme in Parliament and by such lawes of this Monarchie as neuer hitherto any good subiect hath mislyked and therefore your grounde being false how can the rest of your building stand It hath bene sayd before that the Archbishop hath not this absolute authoritie giuen vnto him to doe all things alone or as him lust He is by lawe prescribed both what to doe and howe to procéede in his dooings Moreouer this Churche of Englande Gods name bée praysed therefore hath all poyntes of necessarie doctrine certainly determined Ceremonies and orders e presly prescribed from the whiche neyther Archbyshoppe nor Byshoppe maye swarue and according to the whiche they must bée directed to the obseruing of the whiche also their dutie is to constreyne all those that ée vnder them So that whosoeuer shall wilfully and s ubburnely seuer himselfe from obedience eyther to Archbyshoppe or Bishoppe in suche matters may iustly be called a Schismatike or a disturber of the Church And in this respect is that saying of Cyprian nowe most true For neyther doo Heresyes Li Epist. 3. aryse nor Schismes spring of any other thing but hereof that the Priest of God is not obeyed And so is this of Ieromes in like maner Ecclesiae salus in summi Sacerdotis pendet Contra Luciscrianos dignitate cui si non exors ab omnibus eminens detur potestas tot in Ecclesia efficiuntur schismata quot sacerdotes The safetie of the Churche dependeth vppon the dignitie of the highe Priest to whom vnlesse a singuler and peerelesse power be giuen there will be as manie schismes in the Church as there be Priests You say that it is harder to draw many into an error than one c. whiche is not true The gouernment of one by lawe more safe than of many without lawe when that one ruleth and gouerneth by lawe For the minde of man euen of the best may be ouerruled by affection but so cannot the lawe Wherefore a wicked man directed by lawe gouerneth more indifferently than multitudes withoute lawe bée they neuer so godly Moreouer one Godly wise and learned man is muche more hardly moued to any errour than is the multitude whiche naturally is prone and bent to the same in whome not onely Philosophers but singular Diuines also haue noted great inconstancie and a disposition moste vnméet to gouerne The s ilitude of water returned agaynst the Replier Your similitude of water holdeth not for a little water in a grauelly or stonie Well or Ryuer is not so soone troubled and corrupted as are multitudes of waters in Fennishe and Marrishe groundes Againe a little water in a running Ryuer or Fourde is at all tymes more pure and cleare than is a great quantitie in standing Puddelles to bée short is not the water of those little springs and Cundite heades which béeing safely locked vp and inclosed in stone and Leade do minister greate reléefe to whole Cities muche more pleasaunt hardlyer corrupted lesse troubled than the great waters in the Thames Therefore is a little water procéeding from a good Fountaine by stones and Leade kept from things that may hurt it hardlier putrifyed and corrupted than all the Fennishe waters in a whole Countrey than mightie Pooles yea than the Thames it selfe So is one wise and prudent man gouerned and directed by order and by lawe further from corruption and errour in gouernement than whole multitudes of people of what sorte soeuer they bée You further say that this Ecclesiasticall monarchie hath beene the cause of discorde c. I aunswere that it hath béene the cause of the contrarie vntill suche tyme as it was turned into tyrannie as by all Ecclesiasticall storyes and wryters it may appeare and namely by these two Cyprian and Ierome In all that decretall part 2. c. 9. quaest 3. noted in your Margent there is nothing The places c ed by T. C maketh for the Archbishop agaynste any forme of gouernment vsed by the Archbyshoppe in this Churche of Englande but in plaine and manifest wordes bothe the name and office of the Archebishoppe is there mainteyned and approoued And I wishe that the learned Reader woulde peruse ouer all that parte of Gratian then shoulde he easily perceyue your faythfulnesse in alledging Authorities And thoughe it be somewhat tedious yet that the vnlearned also may haue some taste of your dealing I will sette downe some Canons conteyned in that parte of Gratian. Out of the Councell of Pope Martine hée cyteth this Canon Per singulas prouincias oportet Episcopos cognoscere c. In euerie Prouince the Bishoppes must knowe theyr Metropolitane to haue the cheefe authoritie and that they ought to doe nothing withoute him according to the olde and auncient Canons of oure forefathers for the whiche cause also the Metropolitane muste take vppon him nothing presumptuously without the councell of other Bishoppes And out of the councell of Antioch he hath this Per singulas prouincias Episcopos singulos scire oportet c. In euery prouince the Bishops must know their Metropolitane which gouerneth to haue the chiefe care of the whole prouince and therefore those that haue any causes must resort to the Metropolitane citie c. In all the rest of the Canons he manifestly attributeth superioritie and gouernment to the Archbishop and Metropolitane euen the same that we do in this Church only he denieth that the Metropolitane or Archbyshop hath such absolute authoritie that he can deale any thing in criminall causes agaynst a Byshop or in other common matters without the consent of other Bishops which is not agaynst any thing by me affirmed or contrary to any authoritie claymed by the Archbishop for it hath bene from the beginning denied that the Archbishop of his own absolute authoritie can determine any thing in matters doubtfull and not determined by the lawes and orders of this
authorem vniuersorum Dominum Episcopum autem vt Sacerdotum Principem imagi em Dei ferentem Dei quidem per Principatum Christi verò per Sacerdotium Honor God as the author and Lorde of all thinges and a Bishop as the chiefe of Priestes bearing the Image of God of God bicause of his superioritie of Christ by reason of his Priesthoode And a little after Let laye men be subiecte to Deacons Deacons to Priests and Priestes to Bishops the Bishop to Christ. And agayne Let no man doe any thing vvhiche perteyneth to the Churche vvithout the consente of the Bishop And agayn He that attēpteth to do any thing vvithout the Bishop breaketh peace and confoundeth good order The like saying he hath in his Epistle ad Magnesianos These three Epistles doth Eusebius make mention of Lib. 3. cap. 35. 36. and Hiero. de viris illustribus T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. It is no maruell although you take vp the authors of the Admonition for wante of Logike for you vtter great skill your selfe in writing whiche keepe no order but confounde your Reader in that thing which euen the common Logike of the countrey which is reason might haue directed you in for what a confusion of times is this to beginne with Cyprian and then come to Ierome and Chrysostome and after to the Scripture and backe agayne to Ignatius that was before Cyprian which tymes are ill disposed of you and that in a matter wherin it stoode you vpon to haue obserued the order of the tymes Io. Whitgifte Be patient a whyle the matter is not great the Authors be knowne and the The order ob serued in placing the authorities in y e answere antiquitie of them my mynde is of the matter and there is reason why I should thus place them Cyprian telleth the necessitie of suche superioritie and so dothe Chrysostome Hierome the cause and the originall Paule Timothie and Titus be examples hereof Ignatius and the rest are brought in as witnesses of the continuance of such offices and superioritie in the Churche euen from the Apostles Now first to proue the name of these offices not to be Antichristian then to shew the necessitie of the offices thirdly the cause and last of all to declare the vse of the same to haue bene in the Churche euen from S. Paules time to this houre is to kéepe a better order than you shall be able to disorder with all the Logike Rhetorike and hote Eloquence you haue Chap. 3. the. 61. Diuision T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. But as for Ignatius place it is sufficiently answered before in that which was answered to Cyprian his place for when he sayeth the Bishop hath rule ouer all he meaneth no more all in the prouince than in all the world but meaneth that flocke and congregation whereof he is Bishop or minister And when be calleth him Prince of the priests although the title be to excessiue and big condemned by Cyprian and the councel of Carthage yet he meaneth no more the prince of all in the diocesse as we take it or of the prouince than he meaneth the Prince of all the priestes in the world but he meaneth those fellow ministers and elders that had the rule and gouernment of that particular Church and congregation whereof he is a Bishop as the great churches haue for the most part both Elders which gouerne only and ministers also to ayde one an other and the principalitie that he which they called the Byshop had ouer the rest hath bene before at large declared Io. Whitgifte You very lightly shake of Ignatius wordes but they haue more pyth in them if it please you better to consider of them For he maketh degrées of ministers and the Bishop to be the chiefe he placeth Deacons vnder Priests and Priests vnder Bishops so that he giueth to the Bishop superioritie and gouernment ouer both Priests and Deacons which is the grounde of this cause and it being graunted as it muste néedes neyther can this authoritie of Ignatius be auoyded Aerius Heresie falleth and so doth your whole assertion What is ment by Prince of Priests Ignatius himselfe declareth saying Obtinens principatum potestatem supra omnes hauing chieftie and power ouer all How this name may be wel vsed I haue shewed before where I haue also declared the meaning of Cyprians woordes vttered in the hereticall Councell of Carthage and therefore not coumpted in the number of those Councels Chap. 3. the. 62. Diuision T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 1. 2. But M. Doctor doth not remember that whylest he thus reasoneth for the authoritie of the Bishop he ouerthroweth his Archbyshop quite and cleane For Ignatius will haue none aboue the Bishop but Christ and he will haue an Archbishop I see a man cannot well serue two masters but eyther he must displease the one and please the other or by pleasing of one offend the other For M. Doctor would fayne please and vphold both and yet his proo es are such that euery proppe that he setteth vnder one is an axe to strike at the other Io. Whitgifte I remember it very well and I know that an Archbishop is a Bishop and that therfore there may be superioritie among Bishops and yet nothing detracted from the woordes of Ignatius I know likewise that as well the one as the other is cōdemned by you and I am well assured that the proofe of the one is the proofe of the other and therfore M. Doctor may well serue two masters but they be such as be not onely not contrary one to the other but so néerely linked and ioyned togither that what soeuer pleaseth the one doth also please the other M. Doctors proppes and proofes are such as M. T. C. is compelled to vse railing flouting in steade of answering which is a shift but how honest and Christian let the world iudge Chap. 3. the. 63. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 73. Sect. 1. Iustinus Martyr one of the most auncient writers of the Greekes Iustine Martyr in his second Apologie ad Antoninum Pium alloweth this superioritie calleth him that bare rule ouer the other ministers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 2. But that M. Doctor deliteth alwayes where he might fetch at the fountayne to be raking in ditches he needed not to haue gone to Iustine Martyr for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when as S. Paule calleth 1. Tim. 5 ▪ the ministers and Elders by this title And if this place of Iustine make for an Archbishop then in steade of an Archbishop in euery prouince we shall haue one in euery congregation For Iustine declareth there the leyturgie or manner of seruing God that was in euery church vsed of the Christians And I pray you let it be considered what is the office of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 see whether there be any resemblance in the world betweene him and an Archbishop For he placeth his office to be in
made 〈◊〉 Archbishop of Creta Erasmus saith Paulus Titū Archiepiscopū Eras. in arg epi. ad Titum Chryso cap. Tit. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And Lyra likevvise sayth Paulus instituit Titum Archiepiscopum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 authorities like you not Chrysostome sayth Paulus Tito mul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 commisit Novv hauing the gouernment of many Byshops 〈◊〉 may vve call him but an Archbyshop T. C. Pag 93. Sect. 2. For the 〈◊〉 ast reasons against the Archbyshop and Archdeacon although I be well acquayn 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that fauour this cause yet I did neuer heare them before in my life and I beleue ther 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is be his reasons whose they are supposed to be and which did set downe the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Byshop confuteth Notwithstanding the former of these two seemeth to haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be grounded of that place of Logike that sheweth that according as the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of any thing is excellent so are those things that are annexed and adioyned vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I would she simplest should vnderstande what is sayde or written I will willing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reasons the termes whereof are not easily perceyued but of those whyche be 〈◊〉 Io. Whitgifte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you may dilclaime what you lyste for you coulde neuer be brought before The inconstancie of the Replyer his companions 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 downe your reasons in writing and there is no holde at your worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euen at your pleasure and so wil diuerse of your com as 〈◊〉 hath taught But yet you thinke that this former reason hath a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. 〈◊〉 you answere not one word to my L. of Sarums solution which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be very fonde Chap. 4. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Sect. 3. And as for the answere which the Bishop maketh that in place of Apostles Prophets y e giftes of tongues of healing of gouernmēt are brought in vniuersities scholes Bishops Archbishops for scholes vniuersities I haue shewco they haue bin alwayes therfore cannot come in to supply the roome of the Apostles prophets And whether a man consider the schollers that learne or the scholemasters which teach or the orders appoynted for the gouernment of y e scholes they shal be founde to be rather ciuill than Ecclesiasticall and therfore can not come in steade of any Ecclesiasticall ministerie If the Bishop do meane that they come in place of the gift of the tongs and knowledge of the Gospell that was first giuen miraculously I graunt it and then it maketh nothing to this question Io. Whitgifte You haue not shewed that scholes vniuersities were alwayes in the Church of Christ nor you cannot shew that there were any vniuersities or scholes of Christians in the Apostles time I am not disposed to contrary any thing y t is alleaged for vniuersities or scholes neither would I haue you to denie this truth affirmed by my L. of Sarum for it is certeine that God worketh now in the Churche by meanes of vniuersities scholes that which he wrought in the Apostles time myraculously by his Apostles prophets And those gifts of tongs healing gouernment c. which he then inspired at once without teaching doth he now giue by little little vsing y e ministery of scholes vniuersities such like wherfore it is true that the Bishop hath said And wheras you say y e scholes whether a man consider y e schollers that learne or the scholemasters which teach or orders appointed for y e gouernment of y e scholes they shall be founde rather ciuill than Ecclesiasticall If you speake of scholes in a prophane or heathenishe common wealth it is true But if you speake of a Christian kingdome it is most vntrue For in a Christian cōmon wealth scholes are the first nurses that bring vp childrē in y e true knowledge of God of his word prepare many of thē to the ministerie both which are Ecclesiasticall Moreouer if you talke of vniuersities such especially as be in thys Realme of England then whether you consider either y e masters fellowes or schollers or rules or orders appointed for y e gouernment of them they be for y e most parte Ecclesiasticall and therfore those things make greatly for the purpose and you haue said nothing that can ouerthrow them Chap. 4. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Sect. 4. As for Bishops they can not come in place of Apostles or prophets for as much as they were when the Apostles Euangelists prophets were are one of those ministeries which S. Paule mentioneth in the. 4. to the Ephesians being the same that is the pastor Io. Whitgifte I tolde you before that y e part of the Apostles office which consisted in gouernment is now remaining in Archbishops and Bishops as to visite Churches to reforme disorders to suppresse contentions and such like which also they practised in the Apostles time in such places as were committed vnto them by the Apostles as it is euident in Timothie and Titus That Bishops do succeede the Apostles in this function of gouernment it may appeare Bishops succeed Apostles in gouernmēt Cyprian by sundry learned writers Cyprian Lib. 3. Epist. 9. writeth thus But Deacons must remember that the Lord hath chosen Apostles that is to say Bishops and chief gouernours but the Apostles after the Ascention of the Lord into heauen did appoint vnto themselues Deacons Ministers of their Bishopricke and of the Churche And Ambrose in 4. ad Ephe. Ambrose Zuinglius saith Apostoli Episcopi sunt Apostles are Byshops Zuinglius also in his Ecclesiastes saith that the Apostles when they left of goyng from place to place and remayned in one Churche were no more called Apostles but Byshops as Iames at Ierusalem and Iohn at Ephesus Wherby it may appeare that it séemeth straunge neither to the olde wryters nor to to the new to say that Byshops succéede the Apostles and come in place of the Chap. 4. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Page 93. Sect. vlt. There remayneth therfore the Archebishoppe whyche if he came in place of the Prophetes and Apostles as the Bishoppe sayth how commeth it to passe that the bishop sayth by and by out of the authoritie of Erasmus that Titus was an archebishoppe for at that tyme there was bothe Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes If it bee so therefore that the Archbyshoppe muste supplye the wante of Apostles c. howe commeth it to passe hee wayteth not his tyme whylest they were dead but commeth in lyke vnto one which is borne out of tyme and lyke the vntymely and hastye fruite whyche is seldome or neuer holesom And for one to come into the Apostles or Prophetes place requirerh the authoritie of hym whych ordeyned the Apostles c. whyche is the Lorde and his institution in his worde whiche is that whiche we desire to be shewed But hereof I haue spoken before at large Io. Whitgifte It is not vnknowne to suche as
be willing to learne that where the Apostles coulde not be presente themselues there they appoynted some other to gouerne the Churches for them as the Apostle Paule did Titus at Creta Therefore this reason of yours is sóone answered And in that that the Apostles dyd appoynt Byshoppes in Churches whyche they had planted and gaue vnto them suche authoritie it is euident that therin they made them theyr successours which they did not withoute sufficient testimonie and warrant of the spirite of God and therfore you do but talke you proue nothing Chap. 4. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 94. Lin. 9. Sect. 1. 2. The necessitie of Deanes I do not acknowledge I haue already spoken of them Touching Prebendaties I shall haue occasion to speake a worde hereafter For Earles and Dukes and suche lyke titles of honour they are ciuill neyther dothe it followe that bycause there may newe titles or newe offices be broughte into the ciuill gouernment that therefore the same maye be attempted in the Church For God hath left a greater libertie in instituting things in the common wealth than in the Churche For for so muche as there be diuers Common wealthes and dyuers formes of common wealthes and all good it falleth out that the offices and dignities whyche are good in one common wealthe are not good in an other as those whych are good in a Monarchie are not good in Aristocratie and those whiche are good in Aristocratie are not good in a popular state But that can not be sayde of the Churche whyche is but one and vniforme and hathe the same lawes and forme of gouernment thorough out the worlde In common wealthes also there are conuersions one forme beeing chaunged into an other whiche can not be in the true Churche of God Io. Whitgifte Your acknowledging or not acknowledgyng the necessitie of Deanes c. is not greatly materiall they depende not vpon you To the example of king Saule the first king of Israell you say nothing and yet it is materiall There is no suche difference betwixte the ciuill gouernment of the common wealth and the externall gouernment of the Churche but that the one in many thinges may be vsed as an example for the other And it is vntrue y t the external forme of gouernment in the Church ought to be one and the selfe same thorough out the worlde in all tymes and places as it shall hereafter more fully appeare But still I woulde haue the Reader to note Tract 17. what kynde of gouernmente of the Churche you doe allowe and ioyne the same wyth that assertion of yours that the gouernment of the common wealth muste bée framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche as the hangyngs to the house Chap. 4. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 94. Sect. 2. As for Erasmus authoritie which saith that Titus was an archbishop I haue answered to it And where as Chrysostome sayeth that the iudgemente of many Bishoppes was committed to Titus * vntrue for you haue not as yet spoken one worde of it I haue declared in what sorte it is to be vnderstanded and yet vppon these wordes the Bishoppe can hardly conclude that whyche he dothe that Titus hadde the gouernmente of many Bishoppes For it is one thyng to saye the iudgement of many was committed vnto Titus and an other thing to say that he had the gouernment of many Io. Whitgifte And shall the same answere serue for Lyra too Well I haue answered your answere to Erasmus And I truste that these authorities wyth the Godlie Reader shall haue the more credite bycause this Reuerende Father dothe herein confirme their opinions whose iudgement for his singular vertue and learning ought to be more estemed than a number suche as you are You neyther haue answered nor doe answere nor can answere these wordes of Chrysostome and it is but a verie poore shifte to make suche a distinction betwixte iudgemente and gouernment For what is it else to haue the iudgemente of manye Byshoppes commytted vnto hym but to haue the gouernment shewe a difference if you can No doubte you woulde haue doone it if you coulde Wherefore this authoritie of Chrysostome remayneth vntouched and it confirmeth my answere to the Gréeke Scholiast who borrowed his wordes of him Neyther would you haue thus dalyed in this place if you had looked vppon Chrysostomes wordes who there affirmeth that Paule didde commytte to Titus the whole yle of Creta Chap. 4. the. 20. Diuision The fourth Reason The Ecclesiasticall and Ciuill gouernment maye not be confounded or be together Quarta ratio in one person But to be a chiefe or a ruler is a ciuil power Ergo it can not be exercised by any Ecclesiasticall person The ansvvere of the Bishop Bothe these gouernmentes vvere confounded in Moyses Therefore Eius solutio they may be confounded And the priestes of Israell had the iudgemente and gouernment of the people And Sainct Augustine was troubled vvith hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And vvhere you saye to be a chiefe or a ruler is a ciuil gouernment nay in Ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuil And these differences of gouernment may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongeth only to the ecclesiastical officer and to none other Hereof S. Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae c. This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therefore may be exercised by any ecclesiasticall person T. C. Page 94. Sect. 3. The answere of the Bishoppe vnto the fourthe supposed reason perteyneth vnto an other question that is whether Ecclesiastical persons oughte to exercise ciuill iurisdiction wherevnto I will answere by Gods grace when I come to speake vppon occasion of M. Doctors booke of that question In the meane tyme I will desire the reader to consyder what weake groundes the Archebishoppe and Archedeacon stande vppon seeyng that the Bishoppe of Sarum being so learned a man and of so greate readyng coulde say no more in their defense whiche notwithstandyng in the controuersies agaynst Doctor Harding is so pythie and so plentyfull Io. Whitgifte The Bishop of Sarum hathe sayde muche more than you haue answered vnto and in the respecte of the reasons he hath sayde fully inough You may not thinke but that if he had bin disposed to haue delt of purpose in this cause he coulde haue sayde muche more But your secrete and priuie nippes whereby y u 〈◊〉 to the Reader that he would willingly defende a false cause shall neuer be able to deface so worthie a Prelate You maye perceiue by this his conclusion 〈◊〉 toucheth you so néere that he tooke no great care or tyme for answering these weake reasons for thus he concludeth I beseeche you to take these sodaine answeres in good parte As for these reasons in my iudgement they are not made to buylde vp
tyrannicall These be but very slender proofes that the names and offices of Archbyshops Lordbysh c. be plainly forbiddē by the word of God Surely you had thought that no man would haue euer taken paynes to examine your margent T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. vlt. To your answere also vnto the places of S. Mathew Luke the replie is made before The place of the fourth of the first to the Corinthians is well alleaged for it teacheth a moderate estimation of the ministers and a meane betweene the contempt excessiue estimation neyther can there be any readier way to breed that disorder which was amongst the Corinthians as to say I holde of such a one and I of such a one I of such another than to set vp certayne ministers in so highe titles great shew of worldly honour for so commeth it to passe that the people will saye I will beleue my Lorde and my Lorde Archbishop what soeuer our persone say for they be wise men and learned as we ee it came to passe amongst the Corinthians For the false Apostles because they had a shew outward pompe of speach they caried away the people For although S. Paule sayth that some sayd I holde of Paule I holde of Apollo I of Cephas yet as it appeareth in his fourth chapter they helde one of this braue eloquent teacher and another of that For he translated these speaches vnto him his fellowes by a figure All that rule is tyrannicall which is not lawfull and is more than it ought to be And therefore the place of S. Peter is fitly alleaged whereof also I haue spoken some thing before Io. Whitgifte The Corinthians did not brust out into these factions partes taking in respect of any title or office cōmitted to any of their preachers but it was a partiall affection that they had towardes theyr teachers in preferring them for theyr supposed vertue learning before other of whom they had not conceyued so good an opinion A more liuely example whereof can not be than the dissentiō that is at this day wherein some of your fautors forgetting all modestie do so greatly 〈◊〉 you and your companions that nothing may be heard that is spoken to the contrary nay in comparison all other men be flatterers worldlinges vnlearned doltes asses So do some sorte of men extoll you and contemne other so did the Corinthians extoll magniffe their false Prophets depraue the true preachers Wherefore to take away this partiall affection iudgement the Apostle sayeth Sic nos aestimet homo c. Let a man so esteeme 1. Cor. 4. of vs as of the ministers of Christ c. You will not I am sure acknowledge that at this time among the Corinthians there was any such difference of titles or degrées of superioritie Wherfore you cannot speaking as you thinke say that the Apostle in this place meaneth any such matter But wel you wotte that these affectiōs which I haue spoken of were rife among them and therefore it is most certeyne that the Apostle laboreth for the suppression of them So that the interpretation that I haue giuen of this place in myne Answere is true neyther haue you refelled it The rule that a Bishop hath ouer other ministers in his diocesse is lawfull neither is it such tyrannicall rule as the woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vsed by S. Peter and spoken of before doth signifie that is to rule with oppression and therefore the place is vnaptly alleaged Chap. 6. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect. 1. I am of Hemingius opinion in this poynt that I thinke this your assertion smelleth of playne Anabaptisme T. C Pag. 99. Sect. 1. You are you say of Hemingius minde thinke that this opinion smelleth of Anabaptisme I haue shewed how you haue depraued corrupted Hemingius and desire you to shewe some better reason of your opinion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 will not suftice vs. Io. Whitgifte And I haue shewed how vntruly you haue reported of me Hemingius alloweth superioritie degrées of dignitie among the ministers he condemneth your confused equalitie calleth it Anabaptisticall Moreouer if you well marke the beginninges procedings of the Anabaptistes you shall perceyue that they first began with the ministerie in the selfe same manner and forme that you now do Chap. 6. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect 1. And surely if you had once made an equalitie such as you phansie Anabaptisme feared among the Cleargie it would not be long or you attempted the same among the laitie Let them take heede Tunc tua res agitur c. T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 1. 2. 3. You say that if we had once obteyned equalitie amongst the Cleargie we would attempt it in the Laitie Deut. 18. In what starre do you see that M. Doctor Moyses sayeth that if a man speake of a thing to come and it come not to passe as he hath spoken that that man is a false Prophet i your prophecie come not to passe you know your iudgement already out of Moyses The Pharesies when our sauiour Christ inueighed against their ambiti accused him that he was no friende to Cesar and went about to discredite him with the ciuill magistrate you shall applie it your selfe you will needes make the Archbyshop c. neyghbours vnto the ciuill magistrates and yet they almost dwell as farre a sunder as Rome and Ierusalem and as Sion and S. Peters Church there so that the house of the Archbishop may be burnte sticke and stone when not so much as the smoke shall approche the house of the ciuill magistrate Io. Whitgifte In the starre that is in your forehead in the accustomed practises of the Anabaptists Equalitie of ministers wil pull on the equalitie of other estates Pag. 144. Sect. 1. in the places of scripture alleaged by the Admonition for the equalitie of all ministers which very same the Anabaptists do also vse against the ciuil magistrate To be short I sée it in your owne wordes where you say that the gouernment of the common wealth must be framed according to the gouernment of the church what kinde of gouernmēt you would haue in the Church who knoweth not I do not take vpon me to prophecie but ex antecedentibus colligo consequentia I gather that we shall haue stormes by the blacke clowdes You are not Christ neyther is your cause like vnto his and therefore you make a very vnequall comparison To whom the name of Pharisie doth most aptly agrée is shewed in my Answere to the Admonition The selfe same reasons ouerthrow the ciuill magistrate that ouerthroweth the Ecclesiasticall And therefore the fire kindled against the one muste néedes be very daungerous for the other Chap. 6. the. 5. Diuision Admonition In steade of the Seniors in (r) Rom. 12. 8. euery Church the Pope hath brought in and yet we mainteyne the Lordship
of one man ouer sundry Churches yea ouer many shyres Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 116. Sect. 1. 2. I haue proued before in my answere to your 13. 14. reason that this lordship of one man as you terme it but in deede lawfull iurisdiction ouer sundry churches was not the inuentiō of any Pope but of great antiquitie in the church of Christ allowed by that famous Councell of Nice practised since of most godly and learned fathers In the. 9. Canon Concil Antioch it is thus written Per singulas regiones Episcopos conuenit nosse Metropolitanum Episcopum solicitudinem totius prouinciae gerere propter quod ad Metropolim omnes vndique qui negotia videntur habere concurrant vndè placuit um bonore praecellere nibil amplius praeter eum caeteros Episcopos agere secundùm antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam nisi ea tantùm quae ad suam Dioecesim pertinent c. It behoueth the Bishops in euery countrie to knovve their Metropolitane Bishop to haue care ouer the vvhole prouince and therfore all such as haue any businesse muste come to theyr Metropolitane Citie vvherefore it pleaseth this Councell that he also excell in honour and that the other Bishops do nothing vvithout him according to the auncient rule prescribed by our forefathers but those things onely vvhich perteyne to his ovvne diocesse c. This Councell was about the yeare of our Lord. 345. T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 4. 5. In the. 116. page for the authoritie of the Archbishop is alleaged the. 9. Canon of the councell of Antioche which I haue before alleaged to proue how farre different the authoritie of the Metropolitane in those tymes was from that which is now For there the Coūcel sheweth that euery Bishop in his diocesse hath the ordering of all the matters within the circuite thereof therefore the meaning of the Councell to be that if there be any affayres that touch the whole Church in any lande that the Bishops should do nothing without making the Metropolitane priuie as also the Metropolitane might do nothing without making the other Bishops a Counsell of that which he attempted which M. Doctor doth cleane leaue out And if this authoritie which the Councell giueth to the Metropolitane being nothing so excessiue as the authoritie of our Metropolitanes now had not bene ouer much or had bene iustifiable what needed men father this Canon which was ordeyned in this Councell of the Apostles for the seeking falsely of the name of the Apostles to giue credite vnto this Canon doth carie with it a note of euill and of shame which they would haue couered as it were with the garment of the Apostles authoritie Io. Whitgifte There is no Canon that maketh more directly against you than this doth all the shifts that you haue to auoyde it I haue answered before There is as great authoritie giuen to the Metropolitane in that Canon as now he eyther vseth or requireth For euery Bishop obseruing the lawes of the realme and of the Church hath the ordering of al matters within his diocesse and the Metropolitane in this Church may attempt no newe thing or any matter of great importance not already by lawe established though he haue the consent of all the Bishops so farre is he from hauing authoritie to do any such thing without theyr consent That Canon of the Apostles is repeated confirmed in this Councell as diuerse Canons of the Councell of Nice are in like maner repeated and confirmed by diuerse Councels following This is so farre from discrediting that Canon with wise men that it rather addeth great authoritie vnto it but you kéepe your olde wonte in discrediting the authoritie which you cannot answere Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision Admonition Now then if you will restore the Church to his auncient officers this you must do In stead of an Archbishop or Lorde byshop you must make (x) 2. Cor. 1 7. Colos. 1. 1. equalitie of ministers Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 123. I haue proued before that aswell the name as office of an Archbishop is both most auncient and also most necessarie in the Church of Christ that this equalitie of ministers which you require is both flatly against the scriptures al auncient authoritie of councels and learned men the example of all Churches euen frō Christes time as more plainly appeareth by these wordes of M. Bucer in his booke De egno Christi Iam ex perpetua Ecclesiarum obseruatione ab ipsis iam Apostolis videmus visum ucer hoc esse spiritui sancto vt inter Presbyteros quibus Ecclesiarum procuratio potissimùm est commissa vnus Ecclesiarum totius sacri ministerij curam gerat singularem eaque cura solicitudine cunctis praeeat alijs Qua de causa Episcopi nomen huiusmodi summis Ecclesiarum curatoribus est peculiariter attributum c. Novve vve see by the perpetuall obseruation of the Churches euen from the Apostles themselues that it hath pleased the holy ghost that amongst the ministers to vvhom the gouernment of the Church especially is cōmitted one should haue the chiefe care both of the Churches and of the vvhole ministerie and that he should go before all other in that care and diligence for the vvhich cause the name of a Bishop is peculiarly giuen to such chiefe gouernours of Churches c. Furthermore I haue declared that it engendreth schismes factions contentions in the Churche and bringeth in a meere confusion and is a branche of Anabaptisme T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 6. 7. nd in the 〈◊〉 twētie three page to that which M. Bucer sayth y t in the Churches there hath bene one which hath bene 〈◊〉 ouer the rest of the Ministers if he meane one chiefe in euery particular Church 〈◊〉 one chiefe ouer the Ministers of diuerse Churches meeting at one Synode and 〈◊〉 for the 〈◊〉 and for suche respectes as I haue before shewed then I am of that mynde which he is and if he meane any other chiefe or after any other sorte I denie that any such chiefe was from the Apostles times or that any such 〈◊〉 pleaseth the holy Ghost wherof I haue before shewed the 〈◊〉 And whereas M. Bucer seenieth to allowe that the name of a Bishop whiche the holy Ghost expressely gyueth to all the Ministers of the worde indifferently was appropriated to certayne chiefe gouernors of the Church I haue before shewed by diuerse reasons howe that was not done without great presumption and manifest daunger and in the ende great hurt to the Church Io. Whitgifte M. Bucers wordes are plaine there is no cause why you shoulde make such I s but onely that you may be thought able to say some thing howe contrary to truth and reason soeuer it be Your owne bare deniall of M. Bucers iudgement will weigh little with any wyse or learned man considering what difference there is betwixte your knowledge and his the triall
Archbishop neyther vpō the Bish p but the one is a helpe vnto the other they togither with the pastors teach the flocke of Christ faithfully truely and gouerne them according to the lawes prescribed And therfore the whole gouernment of the prouince dothe not rest in the Archbishop for the whiche cause he may with lesse difficultie execute that that dothe apperteyne vnto him Whatsoeuer any other minister may do the same may y e Archbishop do also but it doth not therfore follow that he is bound to y e same particular parish The pastor may preach so may the Archbishop but the pastors charge is particular the Archbishops more generall And this is a very euill consequent the Archbishop may minister the sacraments and preache the worde therfore he muste doe it in euery particular congregation Chap. 6. the. 16. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 211. Sect. 1. 2. You borrowed these arguments from the very Papistes who by Argumentes borrowed of the papists the selfe same reasons goe about to proue the Popes supremacie for thus they argue Among the Israclites there was one highe Priest which had authoritie ouer the rest therefore there must be one high Priest which is the Pope ouer the whole Church of Christ. Master Caluine in his Institutions chap. 8. dothe answere this reason on this sorte Caluine Quod in vna natione fuit vtile id in vniuersum 〈◊〉 ext dere nulla ratio cogit imò gentis vnius totius orbis longè diuersa erit ratio That vvhiche is profitable to one nation can not by any reason be extended to the vvhole vvorld for there is great difference betvvixt the vvhole vvorld and one nation And a little after Perinde enim est acsi quis contendat totum mundum à praefecto vno debere regi quia ager vnus non plures praefectos habeat It is euen as thoughe a man shoulde affyrme that the vvhole vvorld may be gouerned of one King bicause one fielde or tovvne hath but one ruler or master T. C. Page 101. Sect. 3. Pag. 102. Sect. 1. After M. Doctor translateth out of M. Caluine the Papistes reasons for the supremacie of the Pope and M. Caluines solutions For what purpose he knoweth I can not tell vnlesse it be to blotte paper I know not what he should meane and the quarell also whyche (a) e is not pieked but offered he picketh to translate thys place is yet more straūge For he sayth that the authors of the Admonition borrowed their arguments from the Papists when the contrarie is true that they vse the reasons whyche they of the Gospell vse agaynst the supremacie of the pope to ouerthrowe the archebishop And M. Doctor dothe vse reasons to defende the archebishop (b) Beeing truly alleaged whiche the Papistes vse to maynteyne y e pope (c) In ali aging them falsly For M. Doctor would proue (d) V true for he neuer vsed that for a rea ō that for bycause there is one king ouer a realme therefore there may be one Bishop ouer a prouince and the Papistes vse the same reason to proue the Pope to be a Bishop of the whole Church Shew now one reason that the authors of the Admonition brought of the papistes to proue that there shoulde be no archebishop But nowe I perceyue his meaning and that is that he thought to get some comfort for the archebishop in M. Caluines solutions made vnto the papists reasons for the supremacie And therefore he hath haled and pulled in as it were by the shoulders this disputation betweene the protestantes and the papistes touching the supremacie And what is it that M. Caluine sayth for the archbishop It hath been before shewed what his iudgement was touching hauing one minister ouer all the ministers of a prouince that he doth simply condemne it in his cōmentarie vpon the fyrst chapter of the Philip. Now let it be considered whether in these sentences he hath sayd any thyng agaynst himselfe The Papistes obiect that for so muche as there was one highe priest in Iury ouer all the Church therefore there should be one Bishop ouer all To whom M. Caluine answereth that the reason followeth not for sayth he there is no reason to extende that to all the world which was profitable in one nation Here vpon M. Doctor would cōclude that M. Caluine alloweth one Archbishop ouer a whole prouince If one going about to proue that he may haue as many wiues as he list would alleage Iacob for an example which had two wiues and M. Doctor should answere and say that althoughe he might haue two wyues yet it followeth not that he may haue as many as he list woulde not M. Doctor thinke that he had great iniurie if a man should conclude of these words that his opinion is that a man may haue two wiaes I thinke that he would suppose that he had great wrōg yet thus would he conclude of M. Caluines words in this first sentence where as in deede M. Calinne declareth a little after a speciall reason why there was but one highe Priest in the whole lande of Iewry whych is bicause he was a figure of Christ and that thereby shoulde be shadowed out his sole mediation betweene God and hys Churche And therefore (e) 〈◊〉 for he heweth no such thing sheweth that for so muche as there is none to represent or figure our sauiour Christ that his iudgement is that as there should be no one ouer all the churches so should there be no one ouer any nation Io. Whitgifte The authors of the Admonition say that they may as sa ely by the warrāt of Gods word subscribe to allow the dominion of the Pope vniuersally to reigne ouer the Church of God as of an Archbishop ouer an whole prouince or a Lord bishop ouer a dioces which conteineth many shires parishes This I confute by M. Caluines answere to the arguments of the Papistes wherin it appeareth euidently how far frō reason this such like assertions are that there may aswel be one pope ouer y e whole Church as one Bishop ouer one prouince or dioces Nowe therefore you may sée if you liste that I haue translated these reasons and solutions out of M. Caluine to some purpose And althoughe I might haue had the same solutions out of other learned writers yet I thought it best to vse M. Caluine as one of whome you haue conceyued a better opinion I may truly say that the authors of the Admonitiō borrowed this of the Papists that there may be as wel one Pope ouer y e whole world as one bishop ouer one prouince or dioces The reasons for the Archbishop are solutiōs agains the Pope The reasons that I vse for the defense of the Archbishop are the solutions of the arguments vsed from the Pope such solutions as are vsed by al learned men that write agaynst the Pope as the solution of the
places of Cyprian before mentioned and now these that follow to the strongest arguments of the Papists Wherfore I confesse that I vse some of the same arguments but not to the same ende nor in like maner For they vse them vntruely agaynst reason the true meaning of the Author I vse them truely according to reason and their proper sense And my vsing of them to the purpose that I doe is the direct answere playne ouerthrow of all the arguments of the Papists It is not therfore good dealing to make the simple beléeue that the same arguments confirme the Pope that confirme the Archbishop when as the application of them to the one is the quite ouerthrowe of the other M. Doctor neuer wēt about to proue that bicause there is one king ouer a realine therfore there may be one Bishop ouer aprouince and in vttering these and suche like vntruthes willingly wittingly as you do you declare of what spirite you are But M. Doctor hath reasoned cleane c ntrarie that it is no good argument to saye that bicause one king may well rule one kingdome therefore he may also well rule the whole world or bicause one Bishop may be ouer one prouince therfore one Pope may be ouer all Christendome These be papisticall reasons these M. Doctor dissolueth con uteth neythrr can you be ignorant of it but malice is blinde God forgiue you for your whole drift is to bring M. Doctor into hatred contempt by such lying meanes but God that séeth the hearts of al will one day detect your déepe dissembled hypocrisie reueale that lūpe of arrogancie ambition which is nowe cloaked with a counterfeit desire of reformation I haue tolde you for what purpose I haue vsed these solutions of M. Caluines whose opinion also I haue shewed before concerning those names and offices Caluine alloweth one to rule ouer the test of ministers In the place to the Philippians now agayne repeated and yet this Replier can abide no repetitions in others though he vse almost nothing else him selfe M. Caluine ouerthroweth your equalitie for thus he sayth Truely I graunt that as the manners and conditiōs of men are there can no order remaine amōg the ministers of the word xcept one do rule ouer the rest And he addeth that he speaketh de singulis corporibus non de totis prouincijs multò autem minùs de orbe vniuerso of seueral bodies not of whole prouinces much lesse of the whole worlde meaning as I suppose suche prouinces as be vnder What is mēte by a body in Caluine diuers gouernours for one prouince in one particular Church in one kingdome vnder one Prince is but one body and therfore M. Caluin sayth nothing to the cōtrary but that one may praeesse reliquis ministris rule ouer the rest of the ministers in such a prouince Undoubtedly he can not meane that in euery seuerall parishe or towne there should be one qui praesit reliquis bicause the most parishes townes haue but one minister and he that ruleth must haue some to rule ouer If you will say that M. Caluin meaneth of suche ministers as be in cities where there be many and not of the Countrey where there is in euery seuerall towne but one then I answere that it were agaynst reason to bring the ministers of the citie vnder the gouernment of one and to suffer the ministers of the countrey to liue as they list The same causes that require a ruler or gouernour for the one requireth the same also for y e other except you would haue vniformitie in the citie and confusion in the countrey Wherfore M. Caluines meaning is as I haue sayde But you haue subtilly kept in his wordes bothe héere and before bicause you know that they made much more against your equalitie than they doe agaynst the Archbishop It had béene vprighter dealing to haue set downe his words but you wil neyther vse that playnnesse your self nor allow of it in other men M. Caluine vseth two answeres to that obiection of the Papists the first whereof is this that I haue reported in my Answere And surely he would neuer haue vsed y ◠solution caused it to be printed if he had not allowed it thought well of it And not he alone but other of singular religiō zeale haue vsed the same as Hyperius in the place before by me alleaged so doth M. Nowell agaynst Dorman in his first booke Fol. 50. whose words bicause they be wholy to my purpose an euident declaration that such testimonies may lawfully be vsed for the authoritie of the Bishops that are Supra cap. 3. the. 15. diuis vnlawfully abused for the authoritie of the Pope I haue set downe before Wherby also the Reader may vnderstand how we agrée both amōg onr selues to our selues which are desirous to kéepe the peace of the Churche and that these places now vsed in the defense of the Archbishops and Bishops authoritie are no otherwyse applied by vs than they were before any suche controuersie beganne M. Caluine maketh no doubt of the matter but setteth it downe as an apt answer and by him allowed And therfore your obiection of Iacobs two wiues maye serue for a iest but little to the purpose It followeth not that if a man make two answers to one argument he disaloweth the one for they may both be true Touching M. Caluines second answere I haue spoken before and declared wherin that high Priest was a figure of Christ. M. Caluine in that place hath not these words that his iudgement is that as there should be no one ouer all Churches so should there be no one ouer any nation And therefore you kéepe your accustomed maner of falsifying Chap. 6. the. 17. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 211. Sect. 3. Another of their reasons is this Peter was the chiefe among the Caluin Inst. cap. 8. Apostles therfore there ought to be one chiefe ouer the whole Churche The same M. Caluine in the booke and chapter before rehearsed maketh his owne answere to that argument Vnus inter Apostolos summus fuit nempè quia pauci erant numero Si vnus duodecim hominibus praefuit an proptere sequetur vnum debere centum millibus hominum praefici There vvas one chiefe among the Apostles bicause they vvere but fevve in number but if one man rule ouer tvvelue shall it therefore follovve that one man maye rule ouer an hundreth thousande And a little after Quod inter paucos valet non protenu tr bendum est ad vniuersum terrarū orb m ad quem regendum nemo vnus sufficit That which is offorce among fewe may not by and by be drawne to the whole world the which no one man can gouern Euery hiue of Bees hath one chief maister Bee euery companie of Cranes hath one principall guide muste ther be therfore but one Bee one Crane to direct all the
especially séeing that Ambrose Hieronis auncient denieth the same to haue bin in his tyme. But if hauing one onely testimonie and that making nothing for your purpose but agaynst you rather bicause it establisheth Collegiate Churches which you would gladly throwe downe then M. Doctors knowledge in thys matter is more than you can with all your loftie spéeches immodest words obscure I haue alleaged so muche of Ambrose faythfully aud truely as proueth that which I alleage him for Neyther haue I left out one worde that maketh agaynst that my purpose for if you remember your selfe you can not but sée and vnderstande that I only alleage Ambrose to proue that there was sometime a Seigniorie but yet dissolued and abrogated before his time If that whiche followeth in Ambrose disproue this then in déede you may say that eyther I am abused or desire to abuse other But if it nothing derogate from my intent and purpose then why do you falsly charge me or why picke you a quarel agaynst me for omitting that which neyther doth me harme nor good Disproue any thing by any words of Ambrose that I haue alleaged Ambrose for if you can if you can not then temper your immoderate spéeches frame them according to the truthe If Ambrose so misliked y e abrogating of this Seigniorie why did he not labour to restore it agayne surely if it had bin a matter so necessarie he béeing so godly and zelous a Bishop would neuer haue suffered his Church to be spoyled of it but it is euident by his words that it had not bin in practise long time before Chap. 2. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. Now that I haue shewed the place I will say no more I will leaue it to M. Doctor to think of it in his chamber by himselfe and so will conclude this question that for so much as this order is such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised and that whyche is commaunded by the scriptures approued and receyued by all the Churches in the Apostles tymes and many hundred yeres after in the most florishing churches both in time of peace and in time of persecution and that there are greater causes why it shoulde be in the time of peace than in tyme of persecution why rather vnder a christian prince than vnder a tyrant why rather nowe than in the Apostles tymes that in consideration of these things the Eldership is necessarie and suche an order as the Churche ought not be without Io. Whitgifte It forceth not greatly whether you say any more of it or no for as it nothing hindreth my purpose so winneth it no credite vnto yours And for asmuch as the Church may muche better be gouerned and the principall offices of charitie much better exercised by the ciuil Magistrate than by these Seniors and séeing that this kinde of gouernment is neyther commaunded in the scriptures nor practised in the Church as a kinde of gouernment not to be altered séeing also that it bringeth in confusion derogateth from that authoritie that God hath giuen to the ciuil Magistrate howsoeuer it hath héeretofore bin vsed yet is there no cause why it should nowe or at any tyme vnder Christian Princes be of necessitie reteyned Chap. 2. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. And so also is answered the thirde question that for so muche as they were Churche officers a The place Heb. 13. is quoted only for the phrase for it pro ueth nothing in question and ouer the people in matters perteyning to God and such as watched ouer the soules of men a Heb. 13. that therfore although they were not Pastors to preache the word yet were they no lay men as they terme them but ecclesiasticall persons Io. Whitgifte M. Beza in an Epistle that is prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Beza Hel tia speaking of the Seigniorie sayth that there must be a great consideration had that Princes and noble men and suche as haue authoritie and preheminence in the Churche be chosen to be of the Seigniorie and will you make noble men and Princes ecclesiasticall persons and suche as must watche ouer the soules of men in déede those that be called Presbyteri in the Scriptures be Ecclesiasticall persons for they be ministers of the worde and Sacraments And M. Caluine Institut cap. 8. sect 52. Caluine sayth that all the Seniors were ministers of the worde His words be these Habebant ergo singulae Ciuitates Presbyterorū collegium qui pastores erant Doctores nam apud populū munus docendi exhortandi corrigendi quod Paulus Episcopis iniungit OMNES obibant for euery Citie had a Colledge of Seniors which were Pastors and teachers for they dyd all exercise among the people the offyce of teaching exhorting and correcting which Paule dothe inioyne to Bishops But howe can you make your Seniors ecclesiasticall séeing your Seigniorie must consist of noble men gentlemen marchauntmen husbandmen handycraftesmen as Taylors Shomakers Carpenters c. euen suche as the most part of the Parish will choose Chap. 2. the. 29. Diuision Admonition Then the sentence was tempred according (h) 1. Ti. 1. 20. to the notoriousnesse of the fact Nowe on the one 〈◊〉 eyther hatred agaynst some persons carrieth men headlong into rash and cruell iudgement or else fauour affection or money mitigateth the rigour of the same and all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment lefte of Christ (i) Mat. 18. 7. 1. Co. 12. 28 Rom. 12. 8. 1. Ti. 5. 17. Act. 15. 2. 4 6. 22. 23. to his Churche is committed into one mans hands whome alone it shall be more easie for the wicked by bribing to peruert than to ouerthrow the fayth pietie of a zelous and godly companie for suche maner of men in deede (k) Exod. 18. 21 Deut. 1. 13. should the Seniors be Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 130. Sect. vlt. Pag. 131. 132. Pag. 133. Lin. vlt. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. You say all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment left of Christ to his Church is committed vnto one mans hands and for the proofe of this you note in the margent the. 18. of Mat. the. 12. of the first to the Corin. the. 12. to the Rom. the. 5. of the first to Timoth. the. 15. of the Acts whiche places beeing examined let the discrete Reader iudge howe aptly they serue for your purpose In the. 18. of Math. Christ sayeth on this sort If thy brother trespasse agaynst thee go and tell him his fault betvveene him and thee alone c. In the which place it is by the consent of all interpreters manifest that Christe prescribeth a rule of correcting priuate and secrete sinnes and not of suche as be open and knowne to others For he would not haue pryuate and secrete sinnes blased abroad publikely reprehended before the partie offending be in this order
beyond all mē in saucinesse neither bring they any thing with thē from home but a vayne intollerable contempt of all good men neyther can they abide to be corrected by any admonition of others M. Caluine speaking of the gouernment of the Church Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 120. sayeth thus Scimus politiam pro varietate temporū recipere imo exigere varias mutationes VVe know that the pollicie of the Church doth receiue nay rather doth require diuerse alterations Caluine Beza M. Beza likewise Lib. confess Cap. 5. Sect. 17 is of the same minde touching the gouernmēt of the Churche There was another cause of the Ecclesiasticall assemblies that they might ordeyne canons of Ecclesiasticall discipline and that I may cōprehende many things in few wordes that they might appoynt ecclesiasticall policie for the diuerse circūstances of times places and persones For it is necessarie all thinges should be donne orderly in the house of God of the vvhich order there is one generall reason to be taken out of the worde of God but not one and the same forme agreable to all circūstances And Section 32. speaking of this Seigniorie he sheweth that it was necessarie in the Churche whilest there was no Christian magistrate For so he writeth But there Idem were Elders chosen by suffrages or at least by the approbation of the whole cōpanie as it is very euident out of Ambrose which complayneth that certayne men had transferred this authoritie to themselues and ut of Cyprian likewise by whom we may also vnderstand that the Bishop did rule ouer the colledge of Elders not that he should there reygne but that by their cōsent he might rule the Policie of the church especially for so much as at that time the Churches of Affrica were not helped of the Magistrate but were rather cruelly vexed of them And Sect. 35. speaking generally of the gouernment of the Churche he sayeth Neyther must we simply looke what was done of the Apostles in the Gouernment Idem of the church seyng there are most diuerse circumstances and therfore vvithout preposterous zeale all thinges canot in all places and times be called to one and the same forme but rather the end and inuariable purpose of them must be looked vnto and that manner and forme of doing things is to be chosen which doth directly tende therevnto This is the iudgement of these learned men neyther do I know any that thinketh the contrarie except such as make poste haste to that braunch of Anabaptisme Sixtly either we must admitte another forme now of gouerning the Church than 6. The iurisdietion of the christian magistrate implieth a chāge of the firste kinde of gouernment was in the Apostles time or els we must seclude the Christian magistrate from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters attribute no more to him therein than was attributed to Nero in the Apostles time for in those dayes there was no Christian Prince to gouerne the church But Christian Princes haue must haue y e chief care gouernment of the Church next vnder God Ergo the same forme of gouernment cannot be now nor ought to be that was in the Apostles time Thus it is euident that the grounde whereof T. C. hath buylded his whole booke is a false ground contrarie to the Scriptures the practise of the Church the opinions The grounde of the Replie of learned men and the lawfull and iust authoritie of christian Princes and therefore the building is ruinous and cannot stande ¶ Of certayne matters concerning discipline in the Churche Tract 18. Of Excommunication and in vvhom the execution thereof doth consist Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Let vs come now to the third part which concerneth ecclesiasticall discipline the officers that haue to deale in this charge are chiefly three Ministers Preachers or Pastours of wheme before Seniors or Elders and Deacons Concerning Seniors not only their office but their name also is out of this English Church vtterly remoued Their office was to (q) Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 1 28. gouerne the churche with the reste of the Ministers to consulte to admonish to correcte and to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 112. Sect. 3. What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiasticall discipline I thinke the only discipline that we haue in the whole new testamēt except you will make admonition exhortation a part of it is Excōmunication and the execution of that is only committed to the ministers of the worde Math. 16. Iohn 20. Examples hereof wee haue Onely 〈◊〉 misters may excōmunicate ▪ 1. Cor. 5. 1. Tim. 1. ad Titum 3. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 2. Now I returne back againe to excommunication which M. Doctor thinketh to be y e only discipline in the church but he should vnderstande that beside y ◠part of priuate discipline which is ordinarily daily to be exercised by euery one of y e pastors elders as admonition reprehension there are thre principal partes which are exercised of thē ioyntly together wherof the first is the election or choise the abdication or putting out of ecclesiastical officers The seconde is in excommunication of the stubborne or absolution of the repentant The thirde is the decision of all such matters as doe rise in the church either touching corrupt manners or peruerse doctrine Io. Whitgifte I speake of y e publike discipline of y e church not of priuate admonition reprehension which may be called by y e name of Discipline but neither are they properly nor vsually so called except you wil also say y e publike preaching reading of y e scriptures is discipline these be things annexed to discipline but vnproperly termed by y e name Wherin discipline cōsisteth of discipline Your partition of discipline into those three parts in my poore iudgemēt is very vnskilful for discipline cōsisteth in punishing correcting of vice neither yet is the deciding of controuersies in matters doubtfull properly called discipline for discipline is exercised in punishing correcting y e persons not decioing y e causes Wherfore I thinke you haue forgottē your self in steade of y e part haue deuided y e whole that is you haue made a diuision of gouernment wheras you tooke vpon you to deuide discipline which is but a part of ecclesiasticall pollicie or gouernment Reade the generall confession of y e Christian churches in Heluetia tell me what it differeth from any thing y e I haue said Call to your remēbrance that which your selfe Pag. 1. 4. li 9 haue spoken pag. 14. where you call other censures of the church but forerunners to excommunication but this is a contention only about words therfore inough is said of it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 3. As touching the
memorem esse oportet Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. vlt. c. It may be the clerelier vnderstanded that the presbyterie or eldership had the chiefe stroke in this excommunication if it be obserued that this was the pollicie and discipline of the Iewes and of the Synagogue from whence our sauiour Christ tooke this translated it vnto his church that when any man had done any thing that they helde for a taulte that then the same was punished and censured by the elders of the church according to the qualitie of the faulte as it may appeare in S. Mathew for although it be of some and those very learned expounded of the ciuil iudgement vet for Cap. 5. so much as the Iewes had nothing to do with ciuill iudgementes the same being altogethe in the handes of the Romaines and that the worde Sanedrim corrupted of the Greeke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which S. Mathew vseth is knowen by those that haue skill in the Rabbines and especially the Iewes Talmud to signifie the ecclesiasticall gouernours there can be no doubt but he meaneth the ecclesiasticall censures And if the fault were iudged very great then the sentence of excommunication Cap. 9. was awarded by the same Elders as appeareth in S. Iohn And this was y e cause why our sauiour Christe spake so shortly without noting the circumstances more at large for that he spake of a thing which was wel knowen and vsed amongst the Iewes whome he spake vnto Io. Whitgifte It is very vnlike that our sauiour Christ would borow any such manner or forme of gouernment from the Iewes séeing the same was neither before prescribed vnto them by God nor yet at that time rightly vsed but moste shamefully abused and yet if it were so it quite ouerthroweth your purpose For the Iewes Seigniorie was only at Ierusalen yours must be in euery parishe besides that there is a great differ ce in the persons Howbeit I do not vnderstand how you can drawe the place in the. 5. of Mathew to your purpose for if you meane these wordes Quicunque dixerit fratri suo Racha obnoxius Math. 5. erit concilio He that calleth his brother Racha shal be in daunger of a councell as I am sure you do Christ doth not there prescribe any forme of gouernment or order of punishing but he declareth the degrées of vncharitable dealing towardes our brethren the increase of punishmentes according to the same M. Bullinger in his Cōmentaries vpon that place saith that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Bullinger doth signifie consessum Iudicum buiusmodi consessum qualis apud Graecos erat Amphictyonum qui de grauissimis solebant consultare causis And he addeth that Christ hereby signifieth that as the faulte increaseth so doth the punishment also M. Caluine likewise in his harmony vpon the Gospel saith that Christ in this place Caluine alluding to earthly iudgementes doth testifie that God wil be iudge euen of secret anger to punishe it And bicause he proceedeth further which vttereth his anger in bitter speache he saith that he is giltie coram toto coelesti consessu before the celestiall assembly that he may sustaine the greater punishment Noua Glossa saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie an assemblie of iudges and that in suche Noua Glossa assemblies as at Athens in the court of Mars weightier causes were wont to be handeled and punishmentes for offenders consulted vpon There saith that commentarie Christe by the name of a councell alluding to the manners and customes of men teacheth that those are more greuously to be punished which more vtter and expresse their anger Beza sayth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth that kinde of gouernment wherein there was 23. Beza Iudges to whome did apperteine the hearing of waighty causes And the marginall note of the Geneua bible vpon this place is this Like iudgement almoste the Romains obserued for Triumuiri had the examinatiō of small matters the Councell of 23. of greater causes and finally great matters of importance were decided by the senate of 71. iudges whiche here is compared to the iudgement of God or to be punished with hel fire Which fully agréeth with M. Beza his interpretation who sayeth also that it is according to the Hebrewe commentaries Now how you can pul this to your Seigniorie or to Ecclesiastical gouernours only and especially to excommunicatiō I cannot learne or reade in any wryter these whome I haue here named teache a farre other sense and meaning of the wordes of Christe than you do Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 147. Lin. 15. And that this was the meaning of our sauiour Christ in those wordes it may appeare by y e practise which is set forth in the Epistles to the Corinthians For it is certaine that S. Paule did both vnderstande and obserue the rule of oure Sauiour Christe But he communicateth this power of excommunication with the churche and therefore it must needes bee the meaning of oure Sauiour Christ that the excommunication should be by many not by one and by the churche and not by the minister of the churche alone For he biddeth the church of Corinthe twise in the first Epistle 1. Cor. 5. once by a metaphore another time in plaine wordes that they should excommunicate the incestuous persone By metaphore saying (*) This is not 〈◊〉 of the in 〈◊〉 persone purge out your olde leauen in playne flat words when he sayth take away that wicked man from amongst you And in the second Epistle vnderstanding of the repentāce 2. Cor. 2. of that man he entreateth them that they would receiue him in again shewing that he was content to release the bond chaine of his excommunication so that they would do the same therfore considering the absolution or reconciliation of the excommunicate doth pertayne vnto y e church it followeth that the excommunication doth in like manner apperteine vnto it Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine speaking of the wordes of Christ Math. 18. wherein I am sure you will haue the same order of gouernmēt to be expressed that is in this place of Math. 5. doth make great differēce betwixt the order there prescribed by Christ that practised by the Apostle 1. Cor. 5. bicause in that place Christ committeth the matter to a few in this place the Apostle séemeth to commit it to the whole multitude M. Caluines words be these A question may be asked what he meaneth by the name of the Churche for Paule Caluine in 18. Math. commaundeth the incestuous Corinthian to be excōmunicated not of any chosen number but of the whole company of the godly wherfore it is probable that here the iudgement is committed to the whole people But bicause then as yet there was no church which professed Christ neither any such order appointed and the Lord speaketh
which are very negligent in hearing sermons and in the vse of the Lords supper and furthermore whiche do offend the Church with their wicked life For such if they liue in the citie they are throwen out of the felowship of the wardes or companies so that they can buy and sell with no man neyther are they capable of any honoure or publike office But if they dwell in the countrey they are kept from the vse of the commō pastnres and woods And this way is most meete for vs let other cities and countries do that which they thinke to be most profitable for their people for so much as it is euident that the same forme of discipline cannot be appoynted and obserued in all places I wish the other remoued from those Courtes and this in the place of it But that Byshops may lawfully vse the true ecclesiasticall excommunication I haue proued before Denie it you as oft as you will you can shew no sound reason or ground of your deniall Chap. 2. the thirde Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 3. And other thing is that in these courtes which they call spiritual they take the knowledge of matters which are eere ciuill thereby not only peruerting the order whiche God hath appointed in seuering the ciuil causes from y e ecclesiastical but (*) A manifest vntruth iustling also with the ciuill Magistrate and thrusting him from the iurisdiction which apperteyneth vnto him as the causes of the contracts of marriage of diuorces of willes and testaments with diuerse other such like things For although it apperteme to the Church and the gouernours thereof to shew out of the word of God which is a lawful contract or iust cause of diuorse and so foorth yet the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentences of all these do apperteine vnto the ciuill Magistrate Herevnto may be added that all their punishmentes almost are penalties of money whiche can by no meanes apperteyne to the Church but is a thing meerely ciuill Io. Whitgifte We giue to the ciuill magistrate authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes and we acknowledge Ecclesiasticall courts executed in the prin ces name all iurisdiction that any court in England hath or doth exercise be it ciuill or ecclesiasticall to be executed in hir maiesties name and righte and to come from hir as supreme gouernoure so farre are we off from iustling with hir or thrusting hir from the iurisdiction which perteyneth vnto hir neyther do we make any such distinction betwixt ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes as the Pope and you do And therfore we Who they are that iustle with the ciuill magistrate are not they that detract any thing from the ciuil magistrate but it is the Pope and you who both thrust him from the iurisdiction that by the law of God and all equitie he ought to haue in Ecclesiasticall matters God hath not so seuered ciuil causes from Ecclesiasticall but that one man may be iudge in them both and if it perteine to the Church to declare what is a lawfull contract which be the iust causes of diuorce by what reason can you proue that the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentence of those matters doth perteine to the ciuill magistrate only For is not he most méete to iudge in these causes which best vnderstandeth them but both this and that whiche followeth you speake without reason and therefore the custome of the Church and the lawes appoynted for the same now also receyued and confirmed by the ciuill magistrate with the consent of the whole Realme must be of greater force than your single words Chap. 2. the fourth Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. vlt. Thirdly as they handle matters which do not apperteyne vnto the Ecclesiastical iurisdiction so those which do apperteyne vnto the Church they do turne from their lawfull institution vnto other ends not sufferable which M. Doctor himselfe doth confesse in excommunicating for money c. Io. Whitgifte So I do indéede but it is the fault of the man not of the law Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 151. Sect. 1. Last of all they take vpon them those things which are neyther lawfull for ciuil nor ecclesiasticall iurisdiction nor simply for any man to do of which sort diuerse are reckened vp by the Abmonition and some confessed by M. Doctor I will not here speake of the vnfitnesse of those whiche are chiefe officers in these courtes that the most of thē are eyther Papists or bribers or drunkerds I know what I write or Epicures and suche as liue of benefices and Prebends in Englande and in Irelande doing nothing of those thinges whiche apperteyne vnto them and of other suche naughty persons which are not only not meete to be gouernours in the Churche but which in any reformed Church shoulde not be so much as of the Church I speake not of all I doubt not but there be some do that which they do of conscience and with minde to help forward the Churche whiche I trust will when the Lorde shall giue them more knowledge keepe themselues in theyr vocations and being men for their gifts apt and able eyther to serue the Churche or the common wealth in some other calling will rather occupy their gifts there than where they haue no ground to assure themselues that they do please God Io. Whitgifte For as much as you referre vs to the Admonition to know what these thinges be that Chancellours c. take vpō thē being lawful neyther for ciuil nor ecclesiasticall iurisdictiō I will also referre you to my Answer made to that part of the Admonition Your slaunderous and opprobrious speaches against the men hauing little to say A tast of the Repliers diuinitie against their offices they must take in good part vntill you come foorth namely to accuse them but I am sory that they being as you saye suche persons shall haue little occasion to be perswaded to amendment of life by you whome they sée as factious in religion as they are péeuish in condition as corrupt with affections as they be with bribes as deepe in spite and malice as they be in drunkennesse What diuinitie call you this thus to libell against men in authoritie whome you dare not accuse to their faces I defend them not if ther be any such nay I wish them seuerely punished but you vtter nothing lesse than the frutes of diuinitie and I woulde haue you come foorth to accuse them Touching their benefices and prebendes they will defend themselues by the examples of your adherentes whereof some haue shaken off the ministerie and yet kéepe their Prebends some misliking the state of this Church crying out of the Canon lawe the Court of faculties c. take notwithstanding all the benefyte thereby that they can some of them reteyning two some 4. c. and yet do full little duetie nay rase vp rather than plant But why do I fall into this vayne which I mislike in you I am
Collections made in vaine and framed according to your owne pleasure not so my meaning If you haue done it of ignorance you are to be excused if of set purpose you are to be blamed And wheras you say that M. Doctor must vnderstand that this was ecclesiastical powers Peters punishing of Ananias was by ciuill iurisdiction ▪ Beza de Haeret à Magist. puniendis I say on the other side that you must vnderstand that this was not ecclesiasticall but méere ciuill which you might haue learned of M. Beza in diuers places of his booke de Haereticis à Magistratu pun For thus he writeth Cedò igitur Christus quo iure flagellum his corripuit quo iure Petrus Ananiam Sapbiram occidit quo iure Paulus Elymam excaecauit ▪ Num ecclesiastici ministerij minimè profectò nisi iurisdictiones confundas Ergo ciuilis Magistratus iure Nihil enim est tertium Tell me therefore by what lawe did Christ take the whip in hand twise by what law did Peter kill Ananias and Saphira by what right did Paule strike Elymas with blindnesse did they those things by the right of the ecclesiasticall ministerie no truly except you will confound iurisdictions They did it therefore by the right of ciuill magistracie for ther is no meane And to the same purpose doth he speake sundry times in that booke What outcries I haue vsed or declamations which you haue not in ample manner requited adding to the same al opprobrious kind of speaches and iesting taunts that you could deuise let the indifferent Reader iudge wherfore I hartely wish vnto you both better knowledge and better conscience Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 171. Sect. 1. Unto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that Pope Eugensus brought in prisons into the Church as also vnto the three or fower such like demands ▪ which he maketh in this booke the authours of the Admonition answer at once that this and the other are found in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Io. Whitgifte What authors doe they alleadge for them for bothe these be but very late writers and this is a matter of historie and therfore requireth some greate antiquitie nerer vnto the tyme of Eugenius who liued Anno. 650. but you knowe verie well that our Bishops claim not this authoritie by any constitution or canon of the Pope neither doe they exercise it in their owne name but they haue it from the Prince and in hir name and by hir authoritie do they vse it Chap. 3. the. 14. Diuision Bishop of Sarum Both these gouernments vvere confounded in Moses Therfore they may be confounded and the Priestes of Israell had the iudgement and gouernment Ecclesiastical and ciuill iurisdiction confounded in Moses of the people and S. Augustine was troubled with hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And where you say to be a chief or a ruler is a ciuill gouernment nay in ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuill And these differences of gouernment Augustine heareth ciuill causes may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongerh onely to the ecclesiasticall officer and to none other Hereof Saincte Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therfore may be exercised by an ecclesiasticall person T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Here I wyll take in that whiche the Bishop of Sarisburye hath in the last page of his half sheete touching this matter And fyrst of all I well agree that he sayth that to giue vnto Sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an ecclesiasticall person by reprehension or putting him out of the ministerie if the cause so require is mere ecclesiastical and not ciuill and that those things ought to be done of the officers of the Churche This onely I denye that the ministers ought to medle with ciuill offices For proofe whereof the Bishop alleageth the example of Augustine whiche as Possidonius writeth was troubled with the hearing determining of causes Wherin Possidonius sayth nothing but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister with the elders ought both to heare and determine of causes but of such causes as perteyne vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidomus ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustine as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that which he writeth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certain in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accounted of this as of compulsien and resiraynte from his better busynesses Wherby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not with those worldly affaires further than by way of giuing counsell which is not vnlawfull for a minister to doe as one friende vnto another so that his ministerie be not therby hindered Io. Whitgifte What S. Augustine did in such matters and whether he weroccupied in worldly Augustine iudge in worldely matters matters or no and that he was not a counsell giuer only but also a iudge it shall best appeare by his owne wordes spoken of himselfe whiche are so playne and euident that after you haue hearde them you will be ashamed of this answere to Possidonius and of your former assertion also Augustine therefore in his booke de opere Aug. lib. de opere Monac Monachorum of this matter writeth thus VVho feedeth a flock and doth not receiue of the milke of the flocke And yet I call to witnesse vpon my soule the Lorde Iesus in whose name I doe boldely speake these thinges that touchyng myne owne commoditie I hadde rather euerye daye as it is appoynted in well ordered Monasteries to woorke some thyng wyth my handes and to haue the other houres free to reade and to praye or too dooe somme thynge in the Holye Scriptures than too suffer the tumultuous perplexities of other mennes causes touchyng secular businesse eyther in determinyng them by iudging or in cutting them off by intreatyng to the whyche troubles Augustine thinketh that the how ghost hath bounde Bishops to ciuill causes the Apostle hathe bounde vs not by his owne iudgement but by the iudgement of hym whyche didde speake in him and yet hee himselfe did not suffer these troubles for the discourse of his Apostleship was otherwyse Here in playne woordes hée declareth that it was secular busynesse aboute the whyche he was occupyed and although he séeme to complayne of the multitude of suche businesse yet dothe hee acknowledge the same to bee lawfull iuste and conueniente and therefore he addeth and sayeth VVhyche laboure notwythstandyng wee suffer not without the consolation of the Lorde for the hope of eternall lyfe that wee maye bryng foorthe frute wyth pacience for wee are seruauntes of that Churche and especially to the weaker members what members soeuer wee are in the same bodie And
and sixth sections he speaketh of the maner and forme of confirmation and laying on of handes vsed by the Papists and disproueth that as his owne wordes which I haue for that purpose more at large set downe do plainly declare for in the fourth Section of the. 19. Chapter thus hee wryteth This was the maner in tymes past that the children of Christians shoulde bee Caluin inst cap. 9 sect 4. set before the Bishop after they were come to yeares of discretion that they might performe that which was required of them that being of age did offer themselues to baptisme For these sat among the Catechumeni vntill being rightly instructed in the mysteries of fayth they were able to vtter a confession of their fayth before the Bishop and the people The insants therefore that were baptised bicause then they made no confession of A kind of con described by Caluin not disagreeing from ours fayth in the Church at the ende of their childehoode or in the beginning of their youth they were againe presented of their parents and were examined of the Bishop according to a certaine and common forme of a Catechisme And to the intent that this action which otherwise ought of right to be graue and holy might haue the greater reuerence and estimation there was added also the ceremonie of laying on of handes so the childe was dismissed his fayth being approued with a solemne blessing The auncient fathers make often mention of this order Pope Leo If any man returne from heretikes let him not againe be baptised but let the vertue of the spirite which was wanting be giuen vnto him by the laying on of the Bishops handes Here our aduersaries will crie that it is rightly called a Sacrament wherein the holy Ghost is giuen But Leo himselfe doth in another place expounde what he meaneth by those wordes He that is baptised sayth he of heretikes let him not be rebaptised but let him be cōfirmed with the inuocation of the holy Ghost by the imposition of handes bicause he receyued only the forme of baptisme without sanctification Hierome also maketh mention hereof contra Luciferianos Although I doe not denie that Herome is somwhat herein deceyued that he sayth that it is an Apostolicall obseruation yet is he most farre from these mens follies And he mittigateth it when he sayth that this blessing was graunted only to the Bishop rather for the honour of priesthood than by the necessitie of the law VVherefore such an imposition of handes which is simply in stead of a blessing I commend and would wish it were at these dayes restored to the pure vse These words be euident declare a maner of confirmation correspondent to ours In the fifth Section he wryteth thus But the latter age haue brought in a counterfey e The abuse of confirmation in the popish Church confirmation in stead of a Sacrament of God the thing it selfe beeing almost quite blotted out They feyne this to be the vertue of confirmation to giue the holy Ghost vnto the encrease of grace whiche was giuen in baptisme to innocencie of lyfe to confirme them vnto battail which in baptisme were regenerated vnto life This confirmation is wrought with annointing and this forme of wordes I signe the with the signe of the holy Ghost and I confirme thee with the oyntment of saluation in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy ghost c. And in confuting this maner of confirmation and imposition of handes he procéedeth on in this fifth Section in the sixth Section Wherefore Master Caluine is not contrarie to himselfe neyther disalloweth that kinde of confirmation and imposition of handes in the sixth Section which he alloweth in the fourth But in the one he approueth the maner of the auncient and purer Church touching confirmation in the other he disproueth the vse doctrine of the papistical church cōcerning the same This might you haue sene if you had bin disposed but you care not whom you discredit so that you may winne credit to your selfe The confession of the Churches of Heluetia Berne c. speake only of the Popishe The Repl viech that against our confirmation which is 〈◊〉 of the Papistes Confess Heluet cap. 19. confirmation which the Papists make one of their seuen Sacraments as it is manifest by the wordes of the confession which be these Confirmation and extreame vnction or anealing are the inuentiōs of man which the church may wante without any dammage Neither vse we them in our churches for they haue some things which we can not allowe Nowe to vse that against Confirmation reformed purged from these things which they mislike which is spoken of the Popishe confirmation with all the abuses can it be thinke you the parte of an honest and playne dealing man Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 6. In the ende of that fiftenth article or reason this is added And whiche of them haue not preached against the Popes twoo swordes now whether they vse thē not them selues Touching the Popes twoo swordes we are of the same minde still for the Pope contrary to the word of God taketh from Princes vnto him selfe that authoritie which is due vnto them by the worde of God and would haue them to receiue that authoritie from him whiche he hath no power to giue the Pope also requireth the full authoritie of a ciuill magistrate and exempteth him self from all subiection which is lat cōtrary to the word of God our Bishops Bishops doo not vse the ciuiil sworde as the pope doth in this church do not chalenge as of their owne right any such ciuil authoritie but only according to their dutie execute that that by the Prince and lawes of this realme for iust considerations is laide vpō them Neither do they meddle in all ciuill causes or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction but suche only as helpeth to discipline and to the good gouernment of this church and state wherfore we may safely preach against the Popes twoo swordes and yet lawefully defend that iurisdictiō and authoritie that any Bishop hath in this church for any thing that I knowe T. C. Page 174. Sect. 3. Upon the sixt leafe M. Doctor saith that the Pope taketh the sworde from Princes but our Bishops take it at their handes and giuen of them as though challenge were not made against the Pope for vsing the materiall sworde and not only for vsing it against the wil of the Princes For by that reason if Princes would put their swordes in his hande as sometimes they haue done he might lawefully vse them And wheras he saieth that our churchmen meddle not with all ciuill causes or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction but such as helpeth to discipline and the good gouernment of the church the estate What sayth he that is not truly sayd of any ciuill magistrate in the realme For no one doth meddle in all causes And further I would gladly knowe