gouernours Aunswere to that he sayeth of the Elder he nedeth none alleadging no reason and th' authoritie of the Apostle calling them Gouernours is so weightie for it as if he had put all the reasons hee could alleadge into the counterballance they would way no maner of weight against it That which he speaketh of Wydowes 1. Cor. 12. sheweth he hath not bin of anie long time exercised in these poyntes but for some purpose hath drawen and forced him selfe Now to seeke an occasion three or foure yeares after the publishing of the booke hee dealeth with to be seene to be a Defendour of the present state of our Church For otherwise he might haue vnderstoode that Deacons are not accounted gouernours much les Wydowes but onely Pastours Teachers and Elders to whom onely the guyding of the publique state of the Church belongeth In the next place with as much agreement with the matter of the sentence which he discourseth vpon as the former were hee compareth Elders with syde-men church-wardens whereby it seemeth he had before apprehended the matters so as if none should be esteemed ecclesiasticall persons but such as were within some degree of priesthoode and had taken orders as they call it But he vnderstandeth it better nowe for as hee compareth it they are no more of the ministerie then sydemen and Church-wardens are The next poynt is of the sence of ecclesiasticall gouernement if by it sayeth hee be meant that hir Maiestie taketh vpon her to minister the worde and Sacraments For that I take it he would say in his dark speach this is a slaunder of the papistes If her gouernement in or ouer ecclesiasticall causes we admitte your sense and proceede to the obiection and aunswere I aunswere the Declaration meaneth neither of both which are as farre from the matter spoken of in the Declaration as if with his long wandring he had both lost his way and him selfe too There was no cause why he should stand thus guessing at the meaning the sense being playne to be this that in a treatise of ecclesiasticall gouernement shewing th' order which God hath appoynted for the directing of his church it may be some would looke such a treatise should treate first of the supreame power of christian Princes So as ecclesiasticall gouernement is that whiche the Declaration sayeth to be appoynted of God and neyther concerneth the slaunder of the Papistes nor his construction and therefore notwithstanding that be not the sense it were time he proceeded to that which followeth In the first sentence of the Declaration wherein the foresayde obiection whose answere followeth is layde out the Replyer chooseth certayne wordes to discourse vpon before he come to the substance body of the matter contayned in the sentence According to which purpose of his hee hath spoken firste of but whyle the two first wordes of the sentence in this place of the Declaration and then of ecclesiasticall gouernement being of the next nowe he proceedeth to the worde some it being sayd in the declaration that it may bee thought of some and playeth with some and many and such like speache After it being sayde in the same sentence that it may seeme to some wee should treate firste of the Supreame authoritie of Christian Princes hee standeth vppon the wordes Supreme authoritie and demaundeth whether it be so called by waye of supposition or assertion then resoluing him selfe of the latter he demaundeth agayne howe this agreeth with that which was sayd before that all ecclesiasticall matters are to bee directed onely by foure officers of the Church which he scornefullie calleth Tetrarkes He might easilie haue discerned the aunswere to this with a little consideration For the wordes of the Declaration are these There remayneth of these before rehearsed onely in the Church these ecclesiasticall offices instituted of GOD namely Pastours Doctours Gouernours and Deacons by which the Church of God may accordinge to his worde be directed in all matters which are commonly called Ecclesiasticall Wherein it is playne that the Declaration speaketh of such officers as should deale in their owne persons in preaching the worde ministring the Sacramentes executing the power and censures of the Church and relieuing of the poore and sayth that of all the giftes and offices as Apostles Euangelistes and such like which God gaue to his Church in the beginning there onely nowe remayne these ordinarie officers for directing and dealing in these cases of the Church Which although it be as farre of as the East is from the West from excluding the supreme power of the ciuill Magistrate by the ciuill sworde to protect or punishe such as in those callings acquite them selues well or fayle in duetie yet hee not only moueth this question but prosecuteth it in this maner First hee demaundeth whether the Prince be one of those foure and if no because they are all ecclesiasticall officers and the Prince not but a supreme Gouuernour yet howe can they direct all causes and the Prince bee supreme Gouuernour except there be some quircke founde out betwene direction and gouernement And then they directing and the Prince gouerning according to their direction they giue the name to the Prince and keepe the power to them selues as the Pope of Roome dealeth with the Emperour whiche were but a mockerie But if they truely and vnfaynedly acknowledge Princes supreame Gouernours in all ecclesiasticall causes then stoupe gallant all these foure estates are topsie turnie ouerturned And then why yeelde they not to the ecclesiasticall gouernement by such authoritie established And if they haue the first degree in dignitie why may they not haue the first place in the treatise except the last place be greatest with them in power as in Parliament the voyce of the Prince And then a Gods name proceede on let them say as the Gentlemen-Vshers doe before Princes On afore my Lordes let all these foure estates take their places before because these our learned discoursers so assigne them We will not striue about the roome so the right bee reserued yet no reason to the cōtrarie but that they should first haue intreated of the supreme authoritie of Princes and after of the rest that so it might haue bin perceyued whether they had encroched vpon their power or no. And this me thinketh had bin a better order then where all are placed to saye Your Maiestie is come late these foure are your Senyours you are but their punyes be content you must take that whiche is left And thus farre vpon the sundrie wordes and partes of the first sentence conteyning the obiectiō which is answered To books which are full of such matter as this is may it be fitlie applyed that Salomon sayeth There is no ende of making them and that they are a wearines to the fleshe Eccle. 12.14 What fruite may there bee of all this wast speach that is nothing to the purpose and what a wearines is it to followe one that runneth at no
Ministerie of the worde and Sacramentes to be necessarie for them Mat. 7.6 Mat. 16. Actes 1.8 and that therefore it was needefull the Lorde should leaue a certaine order for the directing of his Church in that administration and ministerie Which also because it was so needefull the holy Scriptures declare him to haue done Mat. 28.19 For touching the worde what should bee preached and by whom and vnto whom with all other necessarie circumstances euen in outwarde things he gaue certaine order vnto his Disciples Likewise for Baptisme both before his death Matt. 18 2◠and at his ascension into heauen he instructed them in what outwarde maner they were to administer it and vnto what persons Of the Lords supper the Apostle sayeth That whiche I receyued of the Lorde I haue deliuered vnto you plainly declaring that the Lorde had deliuered vnto him a certayne order for the outwarde administration of his Supper These things and the like which might be saide of the other pointes of the outwarde Discipline of the Church the Replyer against it did not well consider in making no externall forme of gouernement necessarie but perseuerance in fayth and hope Nay it may seeme hee did not well remember that in other places the necessitie of continuing the present gouernement of BB. and Archbishops Priestes and Deacons such as wee haue amongst vs is affirmed to haue ground and cōtinuance from the very Apostles who also are sayde to haue made Timothy and Titus such For which cause also at the ordination of euerie of them certayne places of the Scripture are appointed to be read as cōteyning their Institution and ordinance in the Church But howe truelie and faithfullie such places are alleadged for that purpose there are but fewe but vpon the reading of those textes of Scripture may discerne Yet howsoeuer they fayle in their proofe that seeke the confirmation of the Hierarchie so commonly called this appeareth by their owne allegations that sometimes and in parte they would perswade men that there is an externall forme of administratiō of the Church appointed by our Sauior Christ Which would to God they did not onely sometimes and in parte but alwayes and altogither perswade them selues and others as the trueth is in deede that God hath set downe in his holy worde a certayne forme of gouerning the Church of Christ necessarie and perpetuall by particular directions in all the chiefe and principall pointes and by generall rules for time place and such like circumstances and that they would rather labour with vs to shewe what the same is by the worde of God then to striue for the contrarie that there is no certaine forme at all The proofe of this point that there is a certayne and perpetuall order set downe in the word of God for the guyding of the Church in ecclesiasticall matters hath bin often made by diuers who haue trauayled in this cause as appeareth in their bookes But because the Replyer denieth it to haue bene proued yet it shall not bee amisse to laye downe brieflie such reasons in this place as may serue for that purpose From the beginning of the world there hath bin ordayned of God a certayne externall forme for directing the Church such as seemed good to his heauenlie wisedome and agreed best with that time for which it serued both before and vnder the Lawe euen from Adam to Christ Whiche for suche time was not to be altered by anie liuing creature Therefore there is also some certayne forme of administring the church of God from the time of our Sauiour Christe to the ende of the worlde which is not alterable nor to be chaunged by anie power of man For God being as able and as willing to doe this good vnto his Church in these last dayes as in anie time before and there being no sufficient reason to be rendred of such difference why those times should be so regarded and this not it must needes be that there is a certayne forme sett downe in the worde of God for the outwarde administration of the Church Againe the externall administration of the church vnder the Law was such as had proceeded from God and was not altered nor to be altered by any King or Priest whatsoeuer For the first plat was giuen in the mount what alteration after was made by Dauid or others was not of them selues 2. Chro. 8. and 25.26 2. Chr. 29.25 but by speciall and particular direction of God by the Prophetes Therefore if no iust reason of difference be to bee shewed to the contrarie as there is not it must be confessed that God hath ordayned a certayne externall forme of gouuernement for the Church in this time and not left it to the arbitrarie direction and lawes of any men whatsoeuer Further where there is a Ministerie and dispensation of holy things ordayned there must needes bee an order sett downe for the deliuering and disposinge of them Otherwise they must of necessitie be exposed to certayne prophanation therfore such ordinances accompanie such administrations and haue both their beginning and ending with them So in the Lawe the Priesthoode being appointed for the ministerie of things that were holy there was withall a lawe of ordinances giuen for certayne direction of their office whiche lawe also ceased and was abolished when the Priesthoode was translated and taken away from the house of Leui as wee are taught in the example of the Hebrewes In like maner Hebr. 7.12 seeing that in the Church of Christ since the abrogatinge of the Priesthoode of the Lawe there is instituted a ministerie of holy things and officers for the purpose it must needes bee that there is also a certaine order set down for the guiding of them in the execution of their Ministerie Which is the whole Discipline consisting onely in the execution of such dueties as they are to performe which are called to beare any charge in the Church of God as the regiment of euery cōmon wealth standeth in the offices and dueties of the Magistrates those that haue authoritie in it Moreouer the Names of Christ and his Church the peace order edification and perpetuitie of the church doe proue that there is a certain externall forme of administring it For if Christ be a King a High Priest an Housholder and the Church his Kingdome his Temple and his House then must it needes be that he hath giuen though spirituall in regarde of the ende they haue as his kingdome is spirituall yet some certayne externall meanes constitutions and orders for the good gouerning and guyding of the same For this is incident to euery wyse man of authoritie especiallie when he him selfe shall not personallie remayne amongst those that belong vnto him And so our Sauiour noteth his purpose to doe Mat. 25. Luke 19.12 Lu. 12.42.43 in the parable of the Talentes deliuered to diuers seruantes and of the Steward left with charge of the house till his comming The same is to
in the beginning and it renowmed for a faithfull Citie Esai 1.25.26 Thus much may suffise to haue sayde to this Section of his Replye For I leaue his iestes and scoffes to him selfe to consider of with remembrance that the Apostle sayeth These are thinges not seemelie and reckoneth this pleasaunt humour amongst a number of other things whereof all professours of the Gospell and much more the Preachers of it shoulde bee ashamed Ephe. 5.4 The Declaration groundinge it selfe vppon the former sentences as pillers of rocke that can not bee shaken the firste that the Churche is the house of the liuinge GOD the seconde That therefore GOD hath appointed a certaine order for the gouuernement of it and last of all that both these beeing so it must needes bee that this order is taught in the holy Scriptures beginneth out of the same to shewe and declare what that order is Wherein the firste pointe whiche is made the next Section is that our Sauiour IESVS Christ hath ordained an holy Ministerie of men to the building vppe of the Church whiche is his body in vnitie of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of GOD. Which is confirmed by two places of Scripture The fourth to the Ephesians and the 12. chapter of the former Epistle vnto the Corinthians The Replyer to the firste of these places taketh this exception that it is impertinentlie alleadged and that it toucheth not the question in hande whereof hee rendreth his reason for that the thinge spoken of in that place is diuerse altogither from the matter to bee proued because the proofe as hee supposeth is to bee made of orders prescribed and sett forth concerninge ecclesiasticall gouuernement for the Churche to bee directed by in all thinges and the matter whiche the Apostle speaketh of is of giftes and functions the ende whereof is referred to vnitie in doctrine of faith and to holy and honest conuersation of lyfe not to the externall orders of the Churches Ecclesiasticall gouernement This is the effecte of his Replie to this point Wherein hee hath fayled in makinge diuerse those thinges that are of great agreement togither For the purpose pretended is to shewe what that order is that the holy Scriptures declare our Sauiour Christe to haue appointed for the guydance of his Church Nowe to performe this there is proofe made of all the Church offices of publique charge that are appointed of our Sauiour Christ for the directing of his people Whiche proofe if it bee sufficient as it is to shewe that the Ministerie of those that are appointed for the preachinge of the worde both Pastours and Teachers and also of other seruinge for other necessarie vses that is both of Elders ordayned and appointed for the care of honest and godlie lyfe and manners and of Deacons instituted for the necessitie and reliefe of the poore and needie is appointed to bee in the Church then is all the pollicie and the Discipline of the Church sufficientlie proued For this being the ordinance of our Sauiour Christ as it is proued by these places that there should be Pastours Teachers Elders or Gouernors and Deacons in the Churche the whole Discipline of the Church standing in nothing els but the due calling of them to such charge and the execution of such dueties after they be called as belong therevnto it is euident that the whole order which concerneth the externall and outwarde guyding of the Church is hereby plainlie shewed what it is and that it is ordayned by the Lorde Where the question were of a king gone to a farre countrey whether he had left anie certayne forme of policie for the regiment of his kingdome in his absence what playner proofe could be made that hee had lefte certayne order for their gouernement in his absence then if it could be shewed by authentike and sufficient recordes vnder his hande and great seale that hee had appointed Magistrates for the mannaging of state causes and other for due execution of iustice amongst his people But this doeth the Declaration in the proofes alleadged For the question being whether our Sauiour Christ haue set anie certayne order for the guyding and directing of his Church till his cōming againe the Declaration answereth that he hath because he hath ordayned Ministers of the word Pastours and Teachers for procuring the aduancement of the faith of the Church Elders for the censure of their conuersation and life and Deacons for the comfort of the poore and afflicted Therefore I take it this allegation is most pertinent and fitteth so neare the matter as the Replier can not by this pretence nor by anie other remoue it But the cause of this errour of his to take that to be from the matter that is so neare vnto it seemeth to bee the abusing of him selfe in th'ambiguitie of the word orders So as where the Declaration vndertaketh to shewe a certayne order to be left by our Sauiour Christ for th'administring of all ecclesiasticall matters the Replyer belike looketh here should be shewed some orders for things indifferent For this place sayeth he referreth all to vnitie in doctrine of faith to holy conuersation of life and not to th' externall orders of the Churches ecclesiasticall gouernement Whereby he sheweth that he looked not to heare proofe of anie matters that are referred to faith or life but to other externall orders and what can they be but of things indifferent Whiche yet that they may remayne indifferent could haue no order appointed by our Sauiour Christ for then should they bee no more indifferent the commaundement of our Sauior binding to a necessarie obedience to doe that which he should command so as this exception can not serue For what orders may more clearely proue our Sauiour Christe to haue taken order for the gouerning of his Church in all ecclesiasticall matters then they which are referred to doctrine and maners Is there anie matter ecclesiasticall that is not referred to one of these And if this place shewe th' order he hath set for all things referred either to faith of doctrine or conuersation of life surely it proueth a certen order for all ecclesiasticall matters Which if the Replyer will denie to followe yet is it to be remembred that he plainlie confesseth here that the place alleadged is referred to matters of vnitie in doctrine of fayth and to holy conuersation of life Whereof whosoeuer he denie it I doubt not but euery indifferent and aduised Reader will easilie discerne that hereby he hath graunted the whole cause except he shew some ecclesiasticall matter that is not referred to one of these Another shift he hath but it is such as he dareth not trust vnto him selfe and yet seemeth to point other to vse it if they lift Whiche is that he sayeth th'Apostle there speaketh of giftes and functions meaning as I thinke cōstruing his meaning out of other places and to his best aduantage that this place cōcerneth not anie kindes of offices or charges but of
and so holde it needles to speake anie more to this matter howe often soeuer the Replier shal charg vs and proceede on to the consideration of such other matter as in the rest of this his first booke he hath layde before vs. Proceeding on with this sentence He rayseth like hues and cryes vpon the declaration for the wordes what pleaseth them after for these of all men and last of all vppon these without all further inquirie naming many idle questions and pulling harde to strayne this to reache to all politike matters The effect wherevnto he tendeth is that nothing is vrged for indifferent amongst vs that is not indifferent and that things being once so established as they are all men should rest in such determination without further question Which things he is content barelie to affirme but it may appeare by the petition presented to the Conuocation house for resolution that sundrie godlie learned and faithfull Ministers not finding many poyntes so cleare as they are made in this place desired to be resolued vpon what good warrant of the worde of God they might reade in their publique ministerie Apocrypha bookes for Canonicall Scripture and that for this respect as more edifying the church then some Canonicall like assurance they desired to haue for to reade sundry most euident apparant abuses of the holy Scripture directlie in sense and in wordes cōtrarie to the text Likewise also how as indifferent or not repugnāt to the word they might holde the reading ministerie the exercise of ciuill power in the Bishops and their so large and immoderate power in causes ecclesiasticall and their forsaking the worke of their calling and the seruice of particular Congregations the iustifying of baptisme by Women cases of necessitie for priuate administration of them rytes misticall and with signification of doctrine besides those which are instituted of our Sauior Christ an office of Deacon without all charge of the poore and for reading of diuine seruice and ministring only the one Sacrament of Baptisme Of these and many other like pointes debated at large both in that petition and in the first part of this defence they desired to bee resolued vpon what grounde of Gods holy worde they might holde them indifferent or not repugnant to the word of god And yet without any aunswere to their peticion without any warrant of the Lawe eyther of God or man A subscription is vrged vpon them not onely as the Replyer setteth it down but as it liketh him whose it is though it beare neither his image nor superscription and sometime in this forme to promise faithfullie by it neyther priuatelie nor publiquelie directlie nor indirectlie to depraue reprooue or reprehende anye gouernement order ryte or ceremonie established c. What cause therefore the Declaration hath to esteeme some not indifferent in shewing what is indifferent appeareth by these Articles Now whereas secondlie he would haue no inquirie of things established let him shewe eyther that all thinges established once by authoritie are well established and ought without anie question to be receyued of all or els he must needes leaue it to the Church and to all the people of God to examine and trye orders setled and established by authoritie But the former can not be prooued by any sufficient or likely reason For that were to continue poperie and paganisme and euery false worship amongst men for euer And to enforce men so without all inquire to receyue what soeuer religion or matter in religion is ordeined by the ciuill Magistrate were to make euerie state established as abhominable an idoll as was the golden Image of Nebuchadnezzar and exalteth Princes of the earth aboue the heauenly King blessed for euer Therefore he must needes leaue it free to the people of God to consider of the ordinances of authoritie Which being lawfull as it is and not lawfull onely but also duetifull and necessarie then in case that any eyther of the Ministerie or other calling shal discouer any thing to haue bin otherwyse decreed then by Gods worde appertayneth it must needes be graunted that such in a reuerent duetiful maner may offer the cōsideratiō of it to the higher powers that reuisiting their owne former actes vppon further knowledge of the will of God they may amende and reforme whatsoeuer by the worde they shall discerne necessarie to be reformed And thus farre to the effect of the rest of his discourse vppon the sundrie wordes of this sentence The laste sentence of this section wherein the Declaration referreth ouer the intreatinge of the Supremacie till that be declared that concerneth Ecclesiasticall officers the Replyer after hauing played withall a whyle and sought to make him selfe and his friendes merye with vnseasoned iesting speache without any grace of edificatiō or matter worthie answere passeth on to the next section In that parte which he maketh the next section the Declaration first affirmeth it not needfull nor agreeable to good order of teaching to begin in that treatise First with the Soueraigntie of Princes and after argueth it by reason that that the Church was perfect in all hir regiment when no Princes were Christians and at this day is in good estate where it hath small fauour of them Wherevpon it concludeth that the regiment of the church dependeth not vppon the authoritie of Princes but vpon the ordinance of God Which cōclusion is enlarged by this that god hath so established the Church that as it may greatly prosper with the cōfortable ayde of christiā Magistrates so yet it may cōtinue or preuayle against the aduersaries of it without that helpe For the church receiueth helpe of the same to proceede more peaceably and profitably but receyueth all hir authoritie immediatly of god The Replier beginneth with the first of these sentences wherein it is affirmed to be neither needfull nor orderly in teaching to begin to intreate of the supremacie in a discourse of this nature that the Declaration is of And in this sentence he firste vndertaketh to reprooue that it is sayde not to be needfull Wherevnto he entreth with an vntrueth affirming the Declaration to haue alreadie alleadged for one cause of this order to bee least the opinion of such as giue the disposition of all Religon or at least of all indifferent matters in religion to Princes might be otherwise fauoured whereas the Declaration made not mention in anie sorte of those opinions for that purpose but to take occasion from them to satisfie all men concerning the order followed in that treatise His reply to that the Declaration saith it is not needfull to begin with the Supremacie is in effect of no valewe but yeeldeth to the iudgement of the declaration For the Replier confesseth in playn termes it is not needful as of necessitie after alledging Peter the Apostle speaking first of Magistrates sayth likewise that that order is not so needful neyther that it should prescribe Which if it be so what a friuolous reply is