we shall losse you so soone Only I would entreate you to haue in your discourses wheresoeuer you shall hereafter come a tender and gentill touch of the Protestant Church of all the true and constant members thereof And herewith Worthy Michaeas I take my last farewell MICHAEAS M. Doctour of your selfe I will euer speake answerably to your desarts Nobly and with great respect Since you are a Man whose barke is richly fraught with learning Morality And what defects haue bene committed by you in this dispute I do wholy ascribe them to your want of a good cause not to your want of good parts And if there haue bene any words misplaced by vs on eyther syde sâ—t the thought of them vanish away since they were spoken Antagonisticeâ— and in heaâ—e of disputation And so in all kindnes Christian charity I leaue you with this my aduise that you will not aduenture your saluation vpon your owne priuate conscience preferring it before the Iudgement and conscience of the vniuersall visible Catholicke Church As for you two fagotts of Hell-fire I grant my eyes euen sparkle forthâ—râ—ge in behoulding of you And I account contrary to the place of the burning bush the place wherin you stand to be cursed ground â—or since your Sunne is so fâ—rie of you I meane your excepted false Messias what can you looke but for a winter of could dispayre and damnation Therefore I will take leaue with you in the phraze of the Apostle to Elymas the Magitian and what greater Magicke then for one to be enchaâ—ted to beleiue that Christ is a seâ—ucer O you full of all subtilty and mischeife the Sonns of the Deuill enemyes of all iustice who cease not to peruert the right wayes of our Lord Adieu OCHINVS You enioy Michaeas the liberty of your Tongue but â—age you well NEVSERVS Let him go I will nor take leaue with him such opprobrious speeches he vseth against vs. OCHINVS Now M. Doctour Michaeas is gonne And now we haue the more freedome of speech among our selfs without feare of being ouerheard I know that not only yonder black-mouthd Michaeas but your selfe also rest much disedisyed at our abâ—enunciation of Christianity But M. Doctour come to the point We see the Prophecyes of the old Testament which must euer remayne sacred permanent and 〈…〉 uiolable do shew that the Church of God in the dayes of the Messias must euer be visible knowne and conspicuous and must in all ages without any intermission enioye a publicke and externall administration of the Word and Sacraments And this is abundantly confessed not only by vs all in the front of this our disputation but by all learned men whosoeuer We now notwithstanding such necessity therof cannot but confesse that the accomplishment of the sayd Prophecyes hath not bene effected in the Church of Christ at leâ—st in the Protestant Church how then can the Church of Christ be that true Church of the Messias which is so gloriously deliueaâ—ed with the penalls of the Prophets Now what other resultancy can be out of the premises then that the Church of Christ as wanting the fulfilling of the former diuine Oracles is not the true Church of God and consequently that Christ is the true Messias Sauiour of the World except we will grant which I neuer will the Papists Church as hauing by relation of Michaeas the Prophecies performed in it to be the sole Church of God Therefore so farre as toucheth my selfe I do renounce my former Christian fayth and will embrace the auncient Law of Moyses and as intending to be seruiceable to that Religion I will teach the doctrine of Circumcision and will instantly write a booke of the lawfulnes of Polygamie or plurality of Wyues aunciently practized by the â—ewes in the old Testament though now by Christians houlden as vnlawfull and altogether proâ—â—ibited NEVSERVS By the Lord of Heauen I cannot see how this difficulty can otherwyse be salued then either by denyinge the Gospell of the New Testament or by granting the Church of Rome to be the true Church which my Soule abhorrs to do For as concerning the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church It cannot be made good notwistanding our great ventitation thereof afore in our Words And therefore it were honesty in vs now in the end to pull of our Visards through which wee spooke to Michaeas and plainly confese the truth herein And here M. D. to take a short view of all the discours passed and to examine it impartially a monge our selfs We cannot but obserue that the Exemples produced by you were most insufficient first because they were no Protestants at all Secondly in that admitting them for Protestants they but only serue as Michaeas well noted to iustify the Visibility of Protestants only for those tymes neither you nor wee being able to produce but only for for me sake any one confessed Example of Protestancy for the space of six hundred yeers at the least Againe when Ochinus and my selfe perceaued that no true instances of Protestancy could be giuen I grant we vsed diuers euasions and inflexious to and froe and all for the sauing of our Churches honour As first to pretend though God knowes a silly pretence that all Relations and testimonyes of Protestants in former ages were by the Popes industry and tyranny vtterly extinct That fayling then we made show for in our priuat iudgments we could not really thinke it That the Protestants in former tymes were forced to lye secret and latent in regard of the supposed then raging Persecution That playne answere not seruinge then we thought good to inuolue and roule our said euasion touchinge Persecution in a certaine obscure and darke sentence to wit That the Church was in the Papacy the Papacy in the Church and yet the Church was not the Papacy a forme of words as Michâ—as truly â—â—id forged by vs Protestants only to cast a â—yst in the eyes of the vnlearned The next we fled for our surest but indeed sham full refuge vnto the Scripture pretending our Church to be consonant to it and therefore euer visible a cours which indifferently lyeth open to euery Heretyke After all which if you remember M. D. your selfe did politikly touch vpoÌ„ that opinion though not with any greate approbation of it which for sauing our Church from it vtter ruine teacheth that the Papists Church and Ours are all one But did you marke how Michaeas neuer ceased till he had ferretted vs out of all our former Connyhoales be in the end irrephably and choakingly prouing from our owne learned Mens penns the mayne question now controuerted among vs Now M. D. seeing I am irrefragably resolued not to admit the Papists Church for the true Church though perhapps it hath enioyed the fulfilling of the forementioned Prophecyes I do therefore conspyre in iudgment herein with Ochinus and ame determined to haue this Country from whence I will retyre myselfe into the Palatinate where
mayne Heresies or Paradoxes wholy impugned gainsaid and contradicted both by Protestant and Catholicke For this Man in this respecte is to be styled rather an open Hereticke then a Protestant euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues Therefore to conclude this last obseruation Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes or species do coople together that which is ingendred is of a third Kinde diuers from them both So here that Religion or fayth which is as it were propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions must be a beliefe different from them al. These things being premised now M. Doctour or either of you two may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age And I shall reply therto as my iudgment and reading wil best inable me OCHINVS I do like well of these your animaduertions and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect and faulty instances from such as be true and perfect MICHAEAS Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing I must demand of you al as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren in al the following passages betweene vs D. REYNOLDS I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmeÌ„ts And if you can conuince either our future examples or our cause in generall from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant that the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary is of greatest authority And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith surely among other testimonyes that is of greatest weight which is giuen by the Enemyes And D. Bancrofs to omit al other Protestants in this point confirmeth the same thus writing Let vs take hould of that which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon for a truth that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers for Ireneus saith It is an vnanswerable proofe which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof It is the greatest cuâ—ning and wisdome of speech to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words So full you see Michaeas I am in this point But now let vs come to the maine matter To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene And that I may the better marshal and incampe as it were my examples thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment I will begin with the later times of the Church and so ascend vpwards And first for these last threescore yeares the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England to forbeare all other Countreyes it Visibility in it full Orbe all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time this worthy Man Ochinus here present backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne like roses after a long cold or tempest blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne with refeâ—erence of which Professours Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe the words of Aenias Quorum pars magna fui MICHAEAS Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne I easily grant they haue been most Visible as I gather out of your English Chronicles And thus I freely confesse that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares But where you say that Protestancy I meane as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught at this day for Protestancy and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect complete Protestant was fully taught and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes I absolutely deny OCHINVS Will you deny Michaeas so manifest a verity whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times but If I may speake in modesty a greate Cause thereof What will you not deny if you deny such illustrious Trueths and what hope can we haue of your bettering by this our disputation MICHAEAS Good Ochinus beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words the refuse of speech but if you can with force of argument I peremptorily deny the former point and for iustifying this my deniall I wil recurre to the Communion Booke set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation and allowance as D. Doue a Protestant affirmeth of Peter Martyr your Cooperatour Which Booke we must presume in al reason was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme established in those tymes and the rather considering that the said Communion Booke for it greater authority was warranted in the Kings time by Act of Parliament Now this Communion Booke or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes being printed in folio by Edward Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points with our Roman Religion For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes and prescribeth that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse It commandeth consecration of the Water of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth of Chrisme as also of the Childs annoynting and Exorcisme In that booke mention is made of prayer for the dead and intercession and offering vp of our Prayers by Angells It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons in time of necessity and the grace of that Sacrament as also Confirmation of children and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar and sometimes to the People It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome Alleluya should be said from Easter to Trinity sunday It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the Bryde brydegroome with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent with these particular words By the authority committed vnto me I absolute thee of all thy sinns It mentioneth a speciall Confession of the sicke Penitent And lastly it commandeth the annoynting of the sicke Person which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction So little reason Ocbinus you see you haue to affirme that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same which was mantained and publikely established by King Edward OCHINVS Indeede I grant the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament but I instructed those with whom I conuersed to reiect those superstitions their confirmed D. REYNOLDS Well let that passe It auayleth not much whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes or no since it is certaine it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes by the late afore raysing vp of Luther who was miraculously sent by the Holy
a Protestant Church preaching the Word and administring the Sacraments vpon the face of the earth to be seene or heard of But hereat I meruayle not since Philosophy reacheth vs to speake by all â—sion that where the Obiect is wanting there the sense suspendeth it operation DOCTOVR REYNOLDS Admitting all that you say to be true touching the first twenty yeares before Luther yet it is most euâ—cent that Iohn Hus who liued anno 1400. and not very many yeares before those 20. yeares was a good and true Protestant for him I fynd registred for a most holy Martyr by M. Fox and D. Downeham MICHAEAS Iohn Hus did liue in the yeare 1400. Who first was a Catholicke Priest The cause of his death was in that he taught the Necessity of Communion vnder both kinds and the seditious doctrine touching Princes Bishops and Priests being in mortall sinne But to make a more particular dissection of this Instance The Articles wherein his followers the Bohemians dissented from the Church of Rome were these following which M. Fox thus relateth The Bohemians being demanded in what poynts they did differ from the Church of Rome the only Propositions which they propounded were these foure Articles first Communion vnder both kinds The second that al Ciuil dominiou was forbidden to the Clergy The third that the preaching of the Word was free for all Men and in al places The fourth that open crymes are in no wyse to be suffered for auoyding of greater euill Thus M. Fox of the Hussite who we see as comparting with the Church of Rome in all other points cannot possibly be alledged for visible members of the Protestant Church D. REYNOLDS But what do you say of Iohn Hus himselfe was not he a Protestant and dyed in defence of the Protestant fayth MICHAEAS M. D The testimonies of Luther and M. Fox shall decide this point betweene vs. And first M. Fox thus saith of him Quid vnquam docuit aut in concilio defendit Hussius c. What did Hus defend at any tyme or taught in the councel wherein he might not seeme euen superstitiously to agree with the Papists What doth the Popish fayth teach concerning Transubstantiation which he did not in like sort confirme with the Papists Who did celebrate Masses more religiously then he Or who more chastly did keep the vowes of Priestly single life Add hereto that touching freeâ—â—l fayth predeâ—â—nation the cause of iustification merit of Works what other thing taught he then was taught at Rome What Image of any saint did he cast out at Bethleem therefore what can we say for which he deserued death touching the which he is not a like to be condemned with the Sea of Rome or with it to be freed and absolued Thus far M. Fox with whom agreeth Luther thus writing of Hus The papists burned Hus when as he departed not a fingars breadth from the papacy for he taught the same which the papists do only he did find fault with their vices and wicked life agaynst the Pope he did nothing Thus Luther Besides all the Catholicke doctrines mantained by Hus he taught as aboue is touched the Heresy of Wiclef to wit that there are no Princes Priests or Bishopps whyle they are in mortall sinne as M. Fox recordeth with whom agreeth the Protestant Osiander thus wryting Nullus est Dominus ciuilis nullus est Praelatus nullus est Episcopus dum est in mortali peccato Haec propositio approhart non potest sed passus est Ioannes Hus hac in parte aliquid humani There is no Ciuill Prince no Prelate or Bishop whiles he is in mortall sinne This proposition cannot be approued but Iohn Hus suffered herein the infirmity of Man Now I cannot but admire the incredible boldnes of M. Fox who acknowledging the former Heresy mantayned by Hus but especially granting as shewed out of his owne words that Hus did hould all the cheise points and frame of the present Roman Religion was neuerthelesse not ashamed to pronounce Iohn Hus for a most holy Martyr as aboue is expressed meaning a martyr of his owne Protestant Church So gladly you Protestants for the supporting of the continuance and visibility of your Church do make clayme to any Catholicke or hereticke whosoeuer who in one only point of Religion though dissenting in all others may seeme to compart and interleague with you Thus far of Hus whom to legitimate for a Protestant you see it is impossible OCHINVS I must here agree in iudgment with Michaeas And this Instance had far better bene forborne then obtruded And indeed it is no small blemish to our Church to insist in such weake and insufficient examples But M. Doctour Let vs entreate you to rise vp to Higher tymes in your discourse D. REYNOLDS I will satisfy your desire The next then in whom I will instance shal be our owne Contryman Wicklef Whom all the world I hope will euen dispose that he was a perfect Protestant and that himselfe and his followers enioyed the administration of the Word and Sacraments the practize of which is acknowledged to be an essentiall note of the Churches Visibility This my opinion touching Wicklef being a Protestant is not myne alone but it is warranted with the authorityes of M. Fox and the learned Crispinus MICHAEAS Indeede M D. M. Fox Crispinus I grant do so teach but how truly Obserue what followeth and then geue vp your eauen and impartiall iudgment And yet before I come to the tuche of this point I must put you in mind what thy two former Protestants grant in the places by you cited that at Wickleffs reuolt supposing him to be a Protestant the Protestant Church was wholy inuisible for thus M. Fox writeth In the tyme of horrible darknes when there seemed in a manner to be no one so little sparke of pure doctrine left or remayning Wicklef by Gods prouidence rosevp through whom the Lord would first awaken raize vp againe the World Thus he This Wicklef being an Englishman as you know M. D. was a Catholicke Priest and Person of Lutterworth in Leicestershirs and as Stow relateth He first inueighed against the Church of Rome because he had bene depriued by the Archbishop of Canterbury from a certaine benefice He liued anno 1370. Now that Wicklef cannot be truly claymed for a Protestant I proue in that besides he was a Catholicke Priest and no Church of the Protestants then knowne to him he still retayned many Catholicke Opinions and withall taught diuers notorious Heresyes Touching his Catholicke Opinions still beleiued by him I will alledge diuers out of his owne Wrytings First he beleiued seauen Sacraments thus writing of them Quaedam sacramentaper se promulgauit Christus c. Certaine sacraments Christ did promulgate by himself as Baptisme the Eucharist the sacrament of Orders and of Penance certaine also by his Apostles as the sacraments of Confirmation and of Extreme
may challenge the Scripture for the fortifying of his Heresyes as fully as we Protestants can do And therefore I do allow that former sentence of Vincentius alledged by you Neuserus D. REYNOLDS I haue found some of our owne learned brethren to teach though aforehand I tell you Michaeas that I dissent in opinion from them that the Church of Rome and the Protestant Church are but one and the same Church from which position they inferre that seeing the predictions of the continuall Visibility of the Church of God and an vninterrupted administration of the Word and Sacraments haue bene performed at least as you Romanists do auerâ—e in the Church of Rome that consequently ours and yours being but one Church they are performed in the Protestant Church And according hereto we find M. Hooker thus to teach We gladly acknowledg them of Rome to be of the family of Iesus Christ c. And agayne we say that they of Rome c. are to be held a part of the house of God a limme of the visible Church of Christ with whome conspireth D. Some thus graunting The learneder Wryters acknowledge the Church of Rome to be the Church of God But this Opinion I haue to the liberty of euery one eyther to retayne it or reiect it MICHAEAS Here now you Protestants are retyred to your last refuge and hould And thus is Errour glad to be shrowded vnder the Wings of Truth For whereas the most dispassionate sober learned Protestants among you do grant that for many ages before Luthers reuolt they cannot truly and really iustify the visibility of their Church in particular much lesse the administration of the word and Sacraments And yet during all the sayd ages they see that all this is actually accomplished in our Catholicke Roman Church They are therefore forced to giue back and to retyre in all their former answeres And at length are driuen for the supporting of their owne Church to say that the Protestant Church the Roman Catholicke Church are identically but one and the same Church And thereupon they inferre as you M. Doctour say that seing our Catholicke Church be generall acknowledgment hath euer continued visible during all the former ages that therefore your Protestant Church both being but one and the same by their curteous yeelding hath also enioyed the same priuiledge of a perpetuall Visibility and the like administration of the Word and Sacraments So ready you Protestants are for the preseruing only of your owne imaginary Church in former tymes to ioyne hands with they Catholicks if so they would agree therto you granting that your owne Succession calling and Ministery is and hath bene for former ages continued and preserued only in the Succession calling Ministery of our Catholicke Roman Church And according to this our meaning M. Bunny a Protestant of good esteeme here in England dealeth plainly ingeniously herein for he not only teacheth as the former Protestants do but giueth sincerely the true reason of such their doctrine to wip that otherwise they cannot proue the being of the Protestant Church during so many former ages for thus he writeth Of the departing from the Church there ought to be no question amang vs. We are no seuerall Church front them meaning from vs Catholicks nor they from vs And therefore there is no departing at all out of the Church Nor any do deparâ— from them to vs nor from vs to them c. And yet more fully It was euill done of them who vrged first such a separation c. For that it is great probability for them meaning vs Catholicks that so we make our selfâ— answerable to find out a distinct and seuer all Church from them which hath continued from the Apostles age to this present Or els that needs we must acknowledge that our Church is sprung vp but of late or since theirs And finally M. Bunny thus concludeth Our Aduersaryes see themselues to haue aduantage if they can ioynt vs to this separation Thus M. Bunny But touching my particular iudgment herein I vtterly with all Catholicks disclayme from mantayning that our Church and the Protestant Church is all one And I confidently auerre that this strange Paradox is inuented by Protestants for the reasons aboue expressed OCHINVS What is the matter brought to this Issue that we must grant the Papists Church and our Church to be one and the same Church Is this M. Doctour the euent of our disputation I will here imprecate with the Poet against myselfe Sed mihi vel tellus optem priùs ima debiscat Vel Pater Omnipotens adigat â—â—fulâ—ine ad vmbraâ— Pallâ—â—ies vmbras Erebi â—octeâ—que profundam Before I acknowledge the Synagogue of Rome to be the Church of God NEVSERVS I giue you free leaue Ochinâ—s to include me within this your imprecation For I will dye the death of a sinner before I grant that the Popish Church is the same with the Protestant Church What shall Superstition and Idolatry by our owne consents be aduanced and set vp side by side with the Gospell in the throwne of Gods Tabernacle It is a thing insufferable and the thought thereof is not so much as once to be entertayned MICHAEAS Gentlemen good words God grant your owne Prayers agaynst your selfs be not heard And though I be of your mynd that the Catholicke Church and your Church is not all one Church yet if before your deaths you do not acknowledge the Church of Rome for the true Church doublesly your prayer wil be heard when your selfs though too late shall with vnutterable but improfitable remoâ—se condemne your selfs of your owne grosse consideration in so weighty a matter But M. Doctour and you two Hitherto we see our discourse hath bene cheifly spent in your obiecting Arguments for your Churches visibility and my answering of them Now I do expect that our Scenes be altered And that I may insist in obiecting what I haue red confessed euen by the most learned Protestants touching this subiect For these alternatiue variations of parts in dispute are in all Reason and by custome of all Schooles most warrantable D. REYNOLDS We giue you good leaue For it argueth a great distrust diffidence in a Mans cause to tye his aduersary only to answere and neuer to suffer him to oppose And it is as vnreasonable as if in a Duelisme the one party should be indented with only toward and neuer to sryke Therefore proceed Michâ—â—s at your pleasure MICHAEAS Truth sayth S. Augustin iâ— mâ—re foroible to wrâ—ng 〈◊〉 Confession then any rackâ— or tormâ—nt Which sentence we fyâ—d to be iustifyed in this Question of the Protestant Churches Inuisibility For diuers learned Protestants there are who as being more ingenuous and vpright in their wrytings and in their managing of matters of Religion then others of their party as well discerning the insufficiency of all pretended Instances and other colorable euasions and answeares which
contrary to the necessary Visibility of Gods true Church proued out of the Scriptures acknowledged by their owne learned Brethren their owne Church to haue beene wholy latent and inuisible or rather wholy extinct and annihilated for so many ages together But this we must asâ—rybe O God to thy holy permission who as thou suffered in the tyme of the Old TestameÌ„t thyne Enemyes to sheath their swords in their brethrens sydes so heare thoâ— permiteest for the greater honour of thy Church so many learned Protestants euen with wounderfull admiration sweete Iesus deadly to wounde their owne Church fayth and Religion with their owne penns D. REYNOLDS Forbeare Michaeas these woundering Interiections the accustomed Dialect of an vngouerned Passion I grant these learned Protestants aboue alledged were of this opinion Notwithstanding to confront their authorityes there may be found many others as learned and iudicious Protestants as these are who absolutly mantayne the Visibility of their Church for all ages And I see no reason but that the sentences and iudgemeÌ„ts of these other should preponderate and weighe equally with the iudgements of the former Protestants by you alledged MICHAEAS You must pardon me M. Doctour if I wounder at things so strangly and vnexpectedly fauling out But to your solution I say it is most defectiue for seuerall reasons First because it mainly crosseth the method agreed vpon amonge vs in the beginninge of our discourse where you tyed your selfe irrephâ—ably to stand to the iudgments and confession of your owne learned Men. Againe though you can bringe other Protestants of as greate eminency for learninge as these by me obiected yet except you and the said Protestants will insist in true and confessed Instances of Protestancy for euery seuerall age which is impossible for you to performe your and their asseuerations are to be reputed but naked verball and inauayleable Lastly and principally your Replye is insufficient Becaus I heare alledge Protestants confessinge the Inuisibility of their owne Church to their owne mighty preiudice and the Catholycks greate aduantage And therefore it must needs be that the racke of Truth forced them being otherwyse ingenuous learned and iudicious to all such Confessions Whereas such Protestants as may be brought to gainsay and contradict the former Confession as being men of more spatious and large Consciences do spake in their owne cause and behalf and therefore as being ready pressed to auere any thinge how false soeuer for the safery of their Church are deseruedly to be reputed in their wrytings more partiall So as in this case the Words of Tertullian may iustly take place Magis fides prouâ— est in aduersus sometâ—psos confitentâ—â— quam pro 〈◊〉 â—egantes NEVSERVS I lyke well Michaeas the reason of your disparity geuen touching some Protestants confessing against themselfs and others affirming the contrary to their owne aduantage OCHINVS The difference set downe by you is most foreible for no doubte the open Confession of one learned Aduersary is to ouerballance twenty denying the same euen for that peculiar reason aboue mentioned D. REYNOLDS Michaeas Suppose for the tyme that we could not proue our Churches perpetuali Visibility yet seinge you are not able if you were pressed thereto to iustify and make good the Visibility of your owne Roman Church during all the ages since the Apostles dayes Therefore looke into what danger through our confessed Inuisibility we may be presumed to tune within the same we may justly includ you And thus you owne argument rebucts vpon your selfe MICHAEAS Heare I see M. D. that for meare want of positiue arguments to support your owne Church you are lastly fled to picke quarrells at our Church as if it were a iustification of yourselfs that wee Catholycks did labour with your infirmities lyke men who reioyce to haue compartuers in misery But to your point vrged say it is impertinent to the whole drift of our dispute which was only touching the want of Visibility in the Protestant Church which alone to proue was by me vndertaken the visibilitye of the Catholycke Church comminge in incidently lyke as a discours of vice doth often in the End biget some specches of Vertue our Contrary being thus brought to our remembrance by meanes of the other Contrary But because M. D. you shall discouer no tergiuersation in vs herein and that here to entreate of the continuall Visibility of our Catholycke Church violateth our former imposed method Therefore I will pawne my credit that there shal be left with you certaine prouffs conâ—ayninge the expresse and confessed Visibility of our Roman Church from the Apostles to these dayes And this by the acknowledgment of sundry learned Protestants though heare by the way I must tell you that the confessed Inuisibility of the Protestant Church during so many former Ages doth potentially and vertually include the proufe of the Visibility of our Roman Church during the said ages Seing the Inuisibility of your Church for so longe a tyme is ascribed by you Protestants as appeareth by many of the former Protestants testimonyes to be the worke of Antichtist you meaninge thereby the Pope and the Church of Rome therefore it ineuitably followeth from your owne Primisses that Popes and the Church of Rome haue euer beene visible during all the said former Ages and Centuryes OCHINVS Newserus I would haue a word or two with you in priuate therefore if it please you let vs walke a little a part NEVSERVS I am willingthereto go into the next roome and I will follow you OCHINVS You see here Neuserus how this Question of the Protestant Churches visibility hath bene discussed and argued And I must consesse that Michaeas hath euen in replicably demonstrated that the Protestant Church hath at least for many ages bene inuisible or rather extinct you see also how royatous and abounding the old Testamentâ—s in prophecyes and other testimonies that the Church in the daye of the true Messias shal be at all cyâ—res most conspicuous and visible Therefore what resteth but that eyther we must reiect the old Testament which I neuer will do for falsly prophetying of the state of the Church Or els we must denye that these tymes of the new Testament are the tymes of Grace that the Church erected by Christ and his Apostles as wanting the accomplishment of the foresayd predictions is the true Church which later poynt I hould to be more probable NEVSERVS You haue preuented me Ochinus in tyme of speaking but not in iudgment For to confesse the truth after I had obserued the weaknes of the Instances alledged though alledged by the Doctour with as much Scholarlike Art and aduantage as might be my houering thoughts transported my iudgment to this your Center Which though it be enuironed with difficultyes yet I hould it the more safe way with you since the one must necessarily be reiected as false and erroneous they so diametrically crossing one the other to retayne our former reuerence to
the old Testament and absolutly to abandon and disclayme from the New And therefore let vs returne backe to Michaeas and the Doctour to acquaint them with this our finall resolution OCHINVS Michaeas and M. Doctour My selfe and Neuserus haue in the secretts of our soules passed our impartiall censures vpon this our Conference And we both acknowledge the full weight of Michaeas his resons in disprouall of your instances of our owne former euading answeres And our Conclusion is that we both assure our selfs that the ProtestaÌ„t Church had neuer any visible existence for these many last seuerall ages at the least And in deed I confesse when I do consider how Christ by his power wisdome and goodnes had established and founded his Church washed it with his bloud and enriched it with his spirit and discerning how the same is funditus auersa vtterly ouerthrowne I cannot but wonder and being desirous to know the cause I find there haue bene Popes who haue preuayled in vtter extirpation and ouerthrow of Christ his Church Here you haue my ceusure accompanyed with the true Reason thereof NEVSERVS I do fully conspyre in iudgment with Ochinus mooued thereto through the strenght and validity of Michaeas his Arguments And yet I hope this is no blemish eyther to you M. Doctour who haue most learnedly handled this poynt nor to our selfs but only to the weaknes of our cause for there are some vntruths so palpable and iniustifiable and among them rang the supposed visibility of our owne Church that neyther learning Art or the bestfiled words which commonly 〈◊〉 the eare of credulity are able to set a good gayne vpon them Therefore Michaeas to be snort in beleiung that the Protestant Church for many centuryes hath bene wholy inuisible Ochinus and my selfe are wholy yours MICHAEAS I much reioyce thereat and I hope notwithstanding both your former acerbity of speeches that now vpon your second and more serious renew of this point the acknowledgment of this one Truth wil be a good disposition for your further encertaynment of the Catholicke fayth since a dislike of the Protestant Church implyeth in itselfe a fauorable respect to the Catholicke Church which Church hath euer bene houored with a perpetuall visibility OCHINVS Stay Michaeas Not so You are ouer hasty your praeÌ„ is as yet not gotten and your credulous expectation ouerrunne your iudgment Know you therefore first that touching your Church at the stearâ—e whereof that Romish Antichrist doth sit we hould it not as aboue we protested to be the Church of God And then it matâ—reth nothing with vs whether your sayd Antichristian Church haue euer since it first being bene visible or no For though we teach that the true Church must euer be visible yet we teach not conuertibly that what Church hath euer bene visible the same is the true Church Furthermore Michaeas and M. Doctour take both you notize that the confessed want of a continuall visibility and of the administration of the word and Sacraments ministreth to vs a great suspicion whether the Church of Christ be that Church of God which is so much celebrated by the Prophets of the Old Testament and consequently whether Christ be the true Messias of the World For if he had so been doubtlesly he would not so quickly haue repudiated his intemerate and chast spouse for so the true Church of God is after his departure from hence NEVSERVS What Ochinusâ—ath â—ath deliuered though perhapps with amazement to you both I do here iustify And as it is euident that the former Prophecyes haue not been actually performed in Christ his Church So we must needs rest doubtfull at the least through want of the performance of the sayd Predictions whether Christ be that Redeemer of the World which was promised to the Fathers of the old Law And whether he had true authority to erect this Church of which he hath made himselfe Head â—or certainly the auncient Predictions deliuered in a propheticall spirit touching the Messias and his Church are infallibly to be performed in the Messias his Church MICHAEAS How now my Maysters Is this the fruit of my refelling your Churches Visibility Tends your approbation of my former discours to this Whether ayme these strange and fearefull speeches of yours Will you disclayme from Christ as your Redeemer because the Prophecyes of the old Testament touching the expansion latitude and continuall visibility of the Church of God are not performed in the Protestant Church And will you not confesse the sayd predictions to be fulfilled at all because they are not fulfilled by that way and meanes as your selfs would haue them Take heed do not obliterate and deface those fayre impressions charactered in your soules at your Baptisme neyther now diâ—auoâ—â— your then taken first now O mercifull God how ignorant are you in these matters And then more miserably ignorant it that partly through learning you are become ignorant Do you thinke to honour the Father by dâ—shonoring the Sonne euen that Sonne in whome the Father tooke such ineffable contentment Hic est filius meus dilectus in quo mihi complacui Certayne it is that if you perseuer in iudgment as your words import you deny him for your Sauiour who had a Father without a Mother a Mother without a Father The first argued his Diuinity the second his immaculate and pure Natiuity Quod de Deo profectum est 〈…〉 eus est Dei Filius Vnus Ambo You deny him whose body was framed of such an admirable and delicate constitution and temperature as that the earth did then contrary to it accustomed manner euen power it influence vpon Heauens To be shorâ— you deny him who gaue himselfe 〈◊〉 Redemption for all who tasted death for all who tooke away the sinnes of the World and finally who was Sauiour of the world and reconciliation for our sinnes In the tyme of whose Passion death did euen â—euiâ—e and Eclips did enlighten Lux in tenebris lucet tenebrae eum non comprehenderunt But why labour I to celebrate his byrth who is from all eternity or to performe his exequies who cannot dye Mors illi vltrà non dominabitur And by you assured that who contemne Christ the Redeemer of all flesh must needs contemne God the Authour of all flesh And where you call the Pope that Romish Antichrist see how malice seeleth vp the eye of your iudgement you mantayne is seems that the true Christ and Messias is not yet come How can the Pope then by your doctrine be Antichrist since Antichrist you know is to come after not before the true Christ Againe for prouffe that the Pope is Antichrist you no doubt will make show to rest vpon the wrested authority of the New Testament And shall not then the said New Testament be of the like authority with you to proue that Christ is the true Messias OCHINVS Tush Michaeas This is but
power of Magistrats doth arme the subiects against their France in these cases c. And further Beza m roundly teacheth what reason haue Christians to obey hym that is Satans slâ—ue And yet speaking more of that Booke of Beza he saith a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all authority of Christian Magistrats To contract this poynt touchinge Beza Beza hymselfe thus wryteth in one of his Epistles to a friend of his Pâ—rplaceâ— mihi c. It pleaseth me very much that you wryte that priuate Conuents and assemblyes are to be made without the authority of Princes And againe in the said epistle Si pijs semper expectandum putas dum lupi vltro cedant c. Yf you thinke we must stay the delayes of godly men till the woulâ—es do freely depart or are driuen away by publyke authority I cannot yeald to your iudgment therein c. And if we had made such delayes What Churches should wee haue had at this day Thus far of the doctrines of Caluin and Beza in this poynt concerning both which in generall I will set downe the iudgment of therfore named D. Bancroft passed vpon them both who thus wryteth He that shall reede M. Caluins and M. Bezaes two bookes of Epistles c. Would certainly meruayle to vnderstand into what actions and dealings they put themselfs of war of peace of subiection of reformation without staying for the Magistrate Thus he Next we will come to kâ—ox who thus teacheth Reformation of Religion belorgeth to the Communalty God hath appoynted the Nobility to bridle the inordinate appetits of Princes Princes for iust cause may be deposed Finally Knox further auoucheth in these words Yf Princes be tyraâ—ts against God and his Truth their Subiects are freed from the oath of obedyence Of all which passages of Knoâ—see D. Bancroft in his booke of dangerous Positions Neither his Collegue Bucanan is lese sparing herein for thus he teacheth The People haue right to bestow the Crowne at their pleasure And yet with â—at more debasing spyte he thus egurgiâ—ates his veâ—ome It were good that rewards were appointed by the People for such 〈◊〉 should kill Tyrants as commonly there is for those which haue killed vulues Finally Bucanan affirmeth that People may arraigne their Prince Now in regard of these impious positions of Knox and Bucanan I fully approue and allow the graue sentence of the Bishop of Rochester who in his Sermon at Pooles Church termeth these two men The two fiery spirits of the Church and Nation of Scotland VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas Notwithstanding what you heere haue alleged touching strangers yet no part thereof conceâ—neth the Church of England or it Members Our Church remayning most incontaminate fâ—ee and spotles from the lâ—ast tuch of disloyalty And therefore what is by you as yet hearesaid concerneth vs litle you only discouering your Ignorance in misapplying other mens doctrines to vs who wholy disclayme from the same MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour Pardon me if I heere do say you charge my Ignorance with greater Ignorance For first are not your Protestants of England of the same fayth and Religion with Luther Swâ—nglius Caluin Beza and the others aboue mentioned If you be not then haue you erected a new Protestant Church of late different from all Protestant Churches afore in Being If you be of the same fayth must you not then confesse that your Religion teacheth disobedience and disloyalty to your Prince Secondly it is ouer manifest that the Church of England I speake of some members thereof only not of all doth stand most chargeable with the same crime In proofe of which point I will produce the testimony of your former Archbishop of Canterbury D. Bancroft who in one of his Books thus confesseth of English Ministers concerning this point saying I omit their desperate courses of deposing Princes and putting them to death in diuers cases of resistance against reformation The generall summe was this That if the soueraigne Magistrate refuse to admit it the Ministers the inferiour Magistrate the People c. might set it oâ— fooâ—e themselues Of these and such like arguments diuers bookes he meaning made by English protestants were allowed by the Ministers of Geneua to be there then printed in English and to be published in England c. And againe the said Archbishop in an other of his Books speaking of the seditious English Protestants in Queene Maryes tyme thus writeth Goodman Whitingam Gilby the authour of the booke of Obedience with the rest of the Geneua Complices in Queene Maryes dayes urged all states by degrees rather to take armes and to reforme Religion themselues then to suffer such Idolatry Superstition remayne in the Land But to descend more particularly to this Goodman He was a forward Protestanâ— in Queene Maryes tyme did write a booke of this very subiect as D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe affirme Thus hereof he wryteth as D. Bancroft alleadgeth his sentences If Magistrats transgresse Gods Lawes and commanâ— others to do the like then haue they loâ—â— honour and obedience and ought no more to be taken for Magistrats but to be examined accused condemned c. And more It is not sufficient for subiects not to obâ—y the wicked Commandements of their wicked Princes but to withstand them also And yet more plainly Euill Princes ought by the lawes of God to be deposed To abbreuate this vnpleasing subiect there was also in the said times an other Booke made against the authority of Princes and entituled Of Obedience Which booke is much disliked by D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe in which booke we thus read Kings haue their authority from the People and by occasion the People may take it away agayne And more By the word of God in a manifest defection meaning of fayth and Religion a priuate Man hauing some speciall inward motion may kill a tyrant Marke you not how he doth Rauiliac it And finally It is lawfull to kill wicked Kings and Tyrants But I will wade no further in this argument For I much feare that the afore vnheard and now vnexpected recitall of the former Protestants doctrines is most displeasing to the eares of this honorable Iudge Only I must note that among the aboue mentioned Protestants some do speake with more respect and honour of Princes others with aâ—â— contempt and disgrace yet all of them alledged do with one the same eye or countenance indifferently looke vpon this principle to wit That Princes in some cases may be deposed such a dispacity we find in this their generally acknowledged Conclusion So in the pourtrayture of diuers mens faces we obserue great disproportion in one and the same proportion LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Michaeas I must confesse that these Doctrines of the former learned Protestants touching the deposing of Princes are most strange and indeede distastfull vnto me But it well may be that
them They would make men to beleiue that they had for the tymes and within their limits an absolute authority as if themselfs were Princes In lyke sort this Doctour reciteth Martin Seinâ—r making mention of a hundred thousand hands and what a stroake so many would stryke together and that Martin affirming their suyte should not be reiected especially in such a tyme whearein we now lyue in danger of our enemyes abroad and therefore had need of no causes of discoradgment at home Thus D. Bancroft cyteth the words of Martin Marprelet and then he giueth his sentence iudgment of this their Menage and tearmeth it thus A speech at least seditions This Doctour also further discoureth the threats of the Puritans against the Magistrate and he alledgeth one of their comminations thus in their owne words We haue sought to aduance this cause of God by humble suyte to the Parlament by wryting c. seing none of these meanes vsed by vs haue preuayled if it come by that meanes which will make all your harts to ake blame yourselfs Finally not to stay long hearein D. Succlif thus speaketh of Martin Marprelate Martin wisheth that the Parlament would bring in the Eldership notwithstanding her Maiestyes resisting of it vz by a rebellion They bragged of a hundred thousand hands and in playne â—â—armes talked of Massacring their Aduersaries Thus D. Succlif with whome I will heare end VICE-CHANCELOVR Though I cannot deny Michaeas the former attempts of the Protestants Yet since not only the Papists Doctrine but also the mainfold traiterous desigments and reall practizes of them against their Protestant Prinâ—es are no lesse tragicall then the former related by you are I do not see but that granting the Protestants to be faulty in defect of Loyalty you Papists may in a far more high degree be iustly insimulated within the said Cryme Good God your treasons and machinations haue bene so apparent and so approued by the consent almost of all other Papists as that I may truly pronounce that in the whole thronge of Papists a true and Loyal Papist towards his Protestant Soueraigne so rare such an one is is lyke a Diamond placed among many whyte Saphyrs So iust reason had the learned D. Morton to say of your Profession We may now expect as well a white Ethiopian as a loyall Subiect of this Religion MICHAEAS Alas M. Vice-Chancelour These are but verball exagerations without prouffe which as they are but wynde of spâ—enfull tongues so are they blowne away with the Wynd Be it that some Catholicke Doctours in certaine peculiar Cases do ascrybe a powrfull authority to the Pope against Princes And grant also that some few Catholicks haue proued to be to the ineffable greife and dislyke of all other good and sober Catholicks Disloyall to their Prince Yet since the difference both of their doctrines and circumstances of their attempts are incomparably short and inferiour to the doctrynes and reall insurrections of the Protestants against their Soueraignes You haue no reason M. Vice Chancelour thus to insult in galantry of such amplifying speeches against vs. Therefore I will paralell them heare together that so you seeing the greate disparty may â—ecall for shame those your speeches and suffer your cheekes to witnes your former errour And first touching the doctrine The Protestants I meane those former alledged Protestants do extend this power of deposing Princes to euery pore parochial superintendent who is Pope or so would be within his owne circuit yea for want of such a turbulent fellow if at any tyme theare can be a want of these they giue this liberty as aboue I haue showed to the base Common people and promiscuous multitude the many headed tyrants of all humane societyes The Catholicke deuynes who most defend such transcendency of proceedings do neuertheles ascrybe the doing of it to the Pope only who is a stranger and therefore further of from any such sudden present attempting and who himselfe in case of Heresy as a priuate person lyeth open to the same perill This also they teach must be done by many former sweete admonitions and proceedings To proceede to the attempts on both sides The Protestants haue actually deposed seuerall Kings Queenes and absolute soueraigns Thus is the King of Spayne deposed of a greater part of the Lowcontryes the King of France of certaine Cittyes in France The supreme Lord of Geneua of his Territory belonging to that Cittie The Emperour of many Imperiall Cittyes in Germany King Sigismond of his Kingdome of Sweueland and Finally his Maiesties Grandmother and Greatgrandmother of the Kingdome of Scotland The Pope and the Catholicks haue neuer yet to this day actually detroned any one absolute Protestant Prince or King throughout all Christendome of their Sates and Territoryes The greatest matter of this nature that can be alledged is the excommunications of King Henry the eight of England Queene Elizabeth his daughter and King Henry of France the fourth The Protestants haue come into the fyeld against their Catholicke Princes in many huge Armyes and hundred thousans of men as appeareth by the warrs made by them in the Low Countryes France Germany which warrs haue continued for many yeres The Catholicks neuer yet leuyed any such Armyes against their protestant Prince Lastly the Protestants haue not only deposed their Princes of seuerall states and Countryes but they haue really impatronized themselues of the sayd states and keept them in their owne possession as is ouer manifestly euident by the examples of Rochel in France Geneua Holland Zeland seuerall parts of Germany Sweueland Transiluania c. The Catholicks to this very day haue not made themselues Lords of any one towne or Citty much lesse of any state or Kingdome which haue belonged to their protestant Princes And thus farre touching the libration and weighing in an euen hand the doctrine and attempts taught and made by ProtestaÌ„ts Catholicks in point of disloyalty against their lawfull dread soueraigns of a different Religion And now M. Vice-Chancelour after the true vnfoulding of these matters which afore were lapped vp in a great mistaking I demaund of you where are your former Termini Conuertibilis of Papistry Disloyalty Your similitude of one Diamond among many worthles Saphyrs And D. Mortons strange beast As if all Papists and â—o Protestants were guilty of Treason and Rebellion against their lawfull Princes so fowly you see your selfe was mistaken therein and so wildly did your Doctourâ—aue â—aue of a whyte Ethiopian L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Michaeas I am tyred with learning thus much of this distastfull Theame and I am vnwilling you should spinne out this discours to any further lenght Therefore you may heere end And truly I would scarse haue beleiued till now my owne eyes much lesse my eares that the Protestants wrytings and actions had stood so iustly subiect to this kind of Reprehension But I must yield though with greife to such euident testimonyes as you haue produced
make to thy selfe any grauen image c. thou shalt not adorethem nor worship them c. do concurre to make vp one Precept or Commandement But absolutly and simply to make Images and to adore or worship them being made are two different things in themselues because one man may adore an Image which he did not make and an other Man may make an Image and yet not adore it Therefore only one of these two things is prohibited in the foresayd words Since otherwise there should be eleuen Commandements But it is certayne that the worshipping of Images in place of God is forbidden Therefore the absolute making of them is not forbiddâ—n but only with reference of worshipping them insteed of God Now the Schoolemen and all Latin Catechismes Primars do follow herein the first opinion of S. Augustin to wit that those words thou shalt not make any grauen Image c. do make but one Commandement with the first Precept of not worshipping other Gods And therefore Primars and Catechismes intending but breifly and in few words to set downe the ten Commandements do omit to set downe that thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. thou shalt not adore them c. because as is said these words are implicitly included in the first Commandement In like sort and for the same cause of briefly setting downe the ten Commandements we find that Latin Cathechismes and Primars do omit to set downe diuers words immediatly following in Exodus and belonging to the Commandement of keeping the Saboath day holy The words omitted are these Six dayes thou shalt labour and doe all thy worke but the seauenth day is the Saboath of thy Lord thy God c. Besides many other words there following The same course the Catechisms and Primars take in setting downe the Commandement of honoring thy Father and thy Mother where these words following are also for bâ—euity omitted that thy dayes may be prolonged vpon the land which the Lord thy God giueth thee Now is it not a loose and dissolute kind of reasoning thus to argue The Papists do purposely conceale and labour to put out of holy Scripture diuers passages immediatly following belonging to the Commandements of keeping the Saboath day holy and of honoring thy Father and Mother because for greater breuity they do not set downe the said passages being but meere explications of the sayd Commandements in their Cathechismes and Primars when they make recitall of the ten Commandements And yet we see the Protestants do euen in the same manner argue most wildly against the Catholicks for not setting downe those words Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any graueÌ„ Image c. Yf the Protestants could prooue that any one Catholicke did say or mantaine that the said words of not making Images were not Scripture and were not spoken by God in the deliuery of the ten Commandements to Moyses then they had iust reason to charge the Catholicks with great Impiety herein But this is impossible for the Protestants to do And therefore this accusation of the Protestants against the Catholicks herein is an errour as in the beginning was intimated compounded of malice and ignorance where I thinke the greater Ingredient is malice And thus much touching the supposed raizing and expunging out of one Commandement by the Catholicks The Catholicke Doctrine touching Images TOuching Images the Catholicks do teach two things First that lawfully they may be had and kept by reason of the profit proceeding from them Secondly that we hauing them may lawfully geue vnto them a peculiar respect or worship aboue other prophane things as they are things consecrated vnto religious vses Touching the Vtility This we find in them First they do instruct the ignorant and such as cannot reade and therefore they are worthely called Libri illiter atorum by some of the fathers And hence it is that the picture is so made as that for the most part it contayneth in it selfe a short abstract or Compendium of the history of him of whom it is the Image Thus for example When Christ is painted either in the shape of a yonge Child in the bosome of his mother or in the forme of a Man tyed to a Pillar to be whipped or hanging vpon the Crosse or rysing from the graue or ascending to Heauen c. And so the ignorant by behoulding the pictures are theareby put in remembrance of the Incarnation the Passion the Resurrection and the Ascention of our Lord and Sauiour And the lyke may be said of the pictures of Saincts who are commonly pictured in such sort as that the picture doth descrybe some cheiffe part of their Sanctity sufferance Martyrdome or power and authority as for example S. Lawrence is commonly pictured lying vpon the gridiron and so of other Saincts And thus secondarily it resulteth from hence that Images are profitablâ— to 〈…〉 our Loue towards God and his Saincts Seing we see by experience that who loueth doth most willingly behould and comtemplate the Image of the partye so beloued by him Lastly and principally Images do greately healpe vs in tyme of prayer for seeing and behoulding them at that tyme they presearue in vs the Memory of Christ and his Saincts and soâ—n time of prayer our thoughts are fixed with greater eleuation of mynd vpon Christ and his Saincts by reason of the pictures â—eare present Now this is to be vnderstood that wheÌ„ we pray we neither pray to the Pictures nor honour them with the honour due to God for this is the Protestants willfully mistaken assertion most wrongfully laid to our charge but only in presence of them we do in tyme of prayer prosecute God with that supreme reuerence and honour which is peculiar to himselfe alone This is the true vse which we Catholicks make of Images in tyme of our Deuotions But now before we come to entreate of the worship of Images in particular we are to conceaue that according to all learned Schoolemen Adoration or worship of any thing containeth in it selfe three different Acts. The first is an Act of the Vnderstanding by the which we apprehend the excellenâ—y of any thing The second the Act of the Will by the wâ—â—ch we are inwardly moued to manifest or protest our Worship by some exteriour or interiour Act The third is an exteriour Act by the which we moue our hat or bow our leg or show some other externall signe in manifestation of our inward worship geuen Of which three Acts the second which is of the Will is most eâ—entiall seeing the first may be without Adoration and the third with â—rision and scorne as the Iewes worshipped our Sauiour vpon the Crosse Heare further we are to remember that that worship which is geuen to God alone is a cheife and supreme prostration and inclination of the Will with the apprehension of God as the first beginning and last ending of all things and therefore as our cheife Good and is called by
being a Professed Deuine shal be in those disputâ— your cheifest opponent and Antagonist And if any of our Doctours shall by writing impugne your said discourses you shall giue your faithfull promisse to reply thereto And lastly you shall pray for the well-fare of his Maiesty vnder whose happy and clement gouerment your former Transgressions are so mildly chastized VICE-CHANCELOVR My Lord. I willingly accept of the Disputation Where I doubt not but to lay open at full the superstition of that Man of sinne But what Must in the meane tyme Michâ—as a member of Antichrist be freed from imprisonment and passe thus vnpunished Must the Whore of Babylon be entertayned among vs in her followers no worse then a chast and inteâ—erate Virgin Shall the words spoken in the Dragons voyce be so preuayling as to enchant the eares of the faythfull with her pleasing yet poysenous musicke Breifly shall Heresy Superstition and Idolatry the worst of all euill endeauour among vs and that in our Vniuersity to take place in the Soules of Christians with all impunitie and as exempt from controule Yf so then come O Lord of heauen hasten thy approach Ouerrunne the earth with an irresistable prosternation of all Creatures and reduce all things of their last Period and dissolution for now it seemes the tyme is that Gog and Magog the forces of Antichrist are let loose to ceaze vpon the faythfull without any gainsaying or opposition and to beget in mans soule a giddy dissipation of all his intellectuall powers MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour Proijcis ampullas sesquipedalia verba You mouth it ouer loudly and vse very turgent and swelling words agaynst vs poore distressed Priests Catholicks Whos 's shyeld in the meane tyme is Patience whose armour our Confidence in God and whose recrimination rests in words of myldnes and charity Maledicimur benedicimus blasphemamur obsecramus But my very good Lord. To turne my speeches vnto you Touching this your sentence how innocent soeuer I am I do vndergoe it with all humblenes of mynd and without the least reluctation for I haue red Non iudices contra iudicem And I embrace it the more willingly since I hope that by this meanes the radiant and most shyning Truth of the Catholicke Doctryne in the former discussed Poynts will in the fight of so noble and worthy an Auditory as the famous Vniuersity of Oxford is more easily dispell the myst of all contrary Nouelis 〈…〉 e. Touching my Loyall duty to his Maiesty my prayer is this I speake not in a Dialogizing and feigned manner but plainly sincerely and seriously in the sight of God and his Angells God pres 〈…〉 ue King Charles and his Royall Queene with a prosperous and blessed Domination and gouerment ouer this Nation Grant to them the happynes to branch themselues forth into many disâ—ente and Progenyes from generation to generation And finally vouchs 〈…〉 fe most mercyfull God that the greatnes of this their temporall 〈…〉 ity may serue as a Type or â—dumbration to figure out their greater eternall Beautitude in the world to come And thus with bended knee and hart prostiated in all du 〈…〉 full humility and with all remonstrance of thankefulnes for this your â—l 〈…〉 ency and myldnes of Iudgment and sentence I take my last fare well with your good Lordship VICE-CHANCELOVR My Lord must your former iudgment passe vnaltered and must it not be accompained with any chastizement at all L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE M. Vice-Chancelour Content your selfe with my former sentence It shall stand an oculus â—uus nequam est quia ego bonus sum I hope you will haue aduantage enough against him in your future disputation and it is more honour for you to haue the Victory ouer his Cause then ouer his Person And indeed it is inhumanity to depresse and waigh downe a poore old Man and a stranger with multiplicity of miseryes your selfe is a Schollar and therefore you are the â—ore to commiserate him being a Schollar And so with these my last words both of you may depart from this barre at your owne pleasure VICE C-HANCELOVR My Lord. Since such is your resolution I must rest satisfyed therewith and so I take my humble leaue of your Lordship As for you Michaeas I will not take any formall farewell with you because I hope according to my L. sentence deliuered I shall meete with you in our Vniuersitie this next Commencement at what tyme I will anatomize and dissect that Wh 〈…〉 re if Bab 〈…〉 lon and strike her in her Mayster veyâ—e and will to your irreperable disgrace display the falshood and absurdities of all your former dispersed Popish doctryres when your Auditour shall easily perceaue that you in your former wrytings did much pertake of the byrd that owed the wing from which you borrowed your penne And so till then I bid you A 〈…〉 eu MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour I do contemne these your Lucian and scoffing vaunts vnworthy to proceede from the mouth of a graue and learned Man At the tyme appoynted I meane to be present in your Vniuersity where I trust through the ayde of him whose cause I am then to mantayne to make good iustify all my former Catholicke doctrynes Touching your malignant demeanour for I can tearme it no better agaynst me throughout the whole Processe of this cauillous accusation know you that as all Christians in generall so Pryests and Catholickes more peculiarly of which number I am one are bound to requyte good for euill imitating therein our Lord who Cum malediceretur non maledicebat cum pateretur non commâ—nebatur Therefore in charitate Dei patientia Christi I freely forgiue you and will affoard you my dayly Prayers for your Conuersion and sauing of your Soule And with this M. Vice-Chancelour vntill the tyme set downe of our future disputation I leaue you FINIS GOD SAVE THE KING THE CONCLVSION to the Academicks of both the Vniuersities LEARNED and worthy Academicks Now Michaeas the Conuerted law hath acted his last Scene And new he heare pulleth off his visard vnder which in the former Dialogues he masked and taketh his last farewell with you in the playne and naturall Dialect of an 〈…〉 Pryest the Authour of the sayd Dialogues You haue heare perused the points discussed It hath in the former Dialogues I hope irrefraâ—ably bene proued that since the Apostles dayes euen to Luthers reuolt Our Cathelicke fayth without chanâ—e hath euen bene professed the ProtestaÌ„ts fayth hath neuer bene professed What demonstration more choaking You also haue seene with what disaduantage diuers of your Professours in regard of the most iust retorting of it vpon themselfâ— haue in greate wast and profusion of words wrongfully promisâ—uously charged all Catholicks with the hatefull Cryme of Disloyaltye Lastly heare hath bene laid open before you besids some 〈◊〉 discourses of certain Catholicke doctrines the venerable Antiquitie of Priesthood the lyke antiquity of the