mo thynges then were open and manyfest before chrystes most glorious incarnacyoÌ„ bycause the same fayth shall saue vs which saued them than / it must therof clerely folow that other our sauyour chryst hymselfe brought with hym no more lyght of the fayth that is to say he reueled no mo secretes mysteryes therof necessary for our saluacioÌ„ then were knowen before or els yf he dyd we are not bounde to byleue them what wycked ê‘son wold byleue or thynke any of them bothe besyde Fryth I must nedes except hym bycause it foloweth of his owne doctrine Therfore where the maner of scoles is this that he which maketh an argumeÌ„t must to coÌ„fyrme the same ê“ue afterward euery part of it particularly by them selfe / the whiche forme maner he doth not here mysse sophistically to imitate I wyll now to the seconde part of his argument bycause I haue showed the suffycyently what his probacyon is of the fyrst except thou hast yet any thynge els to say herin to the contrary He. Syr lytell or nothyng that I wyll declare tyll I heare what ye wyll saye to the reste The .xxviii. chap. Catho TRewly the rest that is to say the seconde part of his argument thou knowest is this that the fathers before chrystes incarnacyoÌ„ neuer beleued this point of the blessed sacrament The which he sayth is so playne that it nedeth no probacyon / two causes why he doth alledge which be these that it was neuer done nor neuer sayd Therfore quyckly te dyspatche the tone of them yf he wyll haue it folowe that the fathers before chrystes incarnacion neuer beleued it bycause it was neuer done in theyr tyme / by the same reason it must nedes folow that they neuer byleued the blessed byrth of chryst his deth his resurreccyon nor his ascention for those thynges were neuer done in theyr dayes nother He. No syr but yet they were done syns Ca. what of that Fryth speketh onely of theyr tyme not syns And that mayest thou know by this when he sayth it was neuer sayd nor done yf he had ment syns the fathers tyme it had ben no whyt souÌ„dynge toward his purpose besyde that to playne false to for he wyll muste nedes graunte hym selfe / that it was and alwaye is at the leest sayde syns / wherfore it is playne that he men in theyr tyme as his owne wordes folowynge doth clerely show wher he sayth vvithout the vvord they coude haue no fayth Therfore this conclusyon which I haue now shewed the muste by his reason as I sayde nedes folowe / that is to say that the olde fathers beleued none of those sayd articles bycause they were neuer done in theyr tyme. And so consequencly bycause they same fayth shall saue vs whiche saued them and they after his doctryne beleued them not we therfore are not bounde to byleue them nother A fayre conclusyon Now to the tother cause yf it folow that the fathers neuer beleued this poynt bycause they neuer harde of it as in dede they coude not yf it were neuer sayde in theyr tyme. For as fayth cometh by hearynge / so hearynge cometh by sayenge it must also by the same reason folow that they neuer beleued any of those thynges which our sauyour chryst and all his dyscyples dyd preache and teache more then was sayd before theyr comynge / so that in all the gospels and the epystels that is to saye in all the new testament there is nothynge necessary for the helth of our soules more then was sayd harde and vnderstande before the incarnacyon of chryst in the fathers tyme or ellys yf there be / seynge after this doctours mynde the fathers neuer beleued it bycause it was neuer sayd in theyr tyme and without the word he sayth they coude haue no fayth we nede not byleue it nother bycause the same fayth shall saue vs whiche saued them How doth this doctryne agre with the wordes of our sauyour chryst where to his dyscyples he saith Blessed are your ears bycause they do heare those thynges which many prophetes iuste men greately desyred to heare and yet heard theÌ„ not what were those thynges that made the eares of the apostles so happy and blessed in the hearyng of them but the sayenges of chryst And why were those prophetes and iuste men desyrous to heare them and hearde them not but bycause they were neuer sayde in theyr tyme Therfore they were not bounde to byleue them / and coÌ„sequently no more are we bycause the same fayth shall saue vs which saued them Take good hede for this doctour wyll make the a good chrysten man anone yf thou marke hym well Therfore yf our sauyour spake any thynges of more worthynesse and profyte then other / doutles those ê“phetes iust men were most desyrous to heare them and yet hearde them not But the cause why was this that they were neuer sayd in theyr dayes wherfore they were not bound to byleue the most worthy and profytable thynges that euer chryst spake and no more are we nother bycause the same fayth shall saue vs which saued theÌ„ also the chyefe thynges that euer chryst taught are the chyefe thinges that apperteyneth to the helth of mans soule But those thynges were they that made the eares of his apostles blessed in theyr hearynge of them And those thynges were they that many prophetes and iust men desyred to heare and hearde them not bycause they were neuer sayde in theyr tyme. wherfore those prophetes and iust men were not bounde to beleue the chyefe thynges that euer chryst taught whiche are the chyefe thynges that apperteyneth to the helthe of mannes soule and therfore no more be we nother bycause the same fayth shall saue vs which saued them How mych tyme sholde I spende yf I sholde not refrayne tyll I hadde shewde the all suche abhomynable inconueniences as must nedes folow of his sophysticall argument Therfore bycause thou hast suffycyently heard how wel he hath proued the partes therof beholde now the hole togyther after the same forme and maner as he doth put it / and se how it wyll appere in an other artycle or two The same fayth shall saue vs whiche saued the olde fathers before chrystes incarnacyoÌ„ But they were not bounde vnder payne of dampnacyon to byleue that the sacrament of baptyme is a sacrameÌ„t Therfore it shall not folow that we are bound therto vnder the payne of daÌ„pnacyon The fyrst part of myne argument is proued by saynt austen after Frythes vnderstaÌ„dyng ad DardanuÌ„ c. The seconde part is so manyfest that it nedeth no ê“bacyon For how coude they beleue that thynge which was neuer sayd nor done and without the worde they coude haue no fayth Uppon the trauth of these two partes muste the coÌ„clusyon nedes folow that which is this / that we are not bounde to byleue that the sacrament of baptym is a sacrament And euen by the same argument that the blessed
thou now sayst thou were in very ded for more therin thou dydest not graunte then the very inuyncyble strength of trauth dyd euen compell and dreue the to Therfore this beyng but a fayned excuse whyle it is so that thou hast els as I perceyue by thyne owne wordes no more in dede herein to saye / my counsell vtterly shall be this accordynge to thy fyrste promyse well to content thy self with reason wherof I dare well saye thou hast herde herein so myche that thou mayste rather blame me for the superfluyte of many thynges mo then neded Then for the lack of any one which of necessite might be requyred wherfore somewhat from this mater wyll I now to another / for the which I haue desyred most chyefly to talke with the. ¶ The .xx. chap. Hereti WHat so euer ye saye I suppose ye wyll not leue this matter thus Ca. wherfore not He. is not the cause why any thynge is done more of estymacion then the thyng it selfe whiche is done for it Ca. That I graunte He. I maruayle therfore greatly that ye haue declared vnto me this mater so largely / and wolde now thus leue it showynge me no word why or for what purpose ye haue hytherto brought it when without that it were but in maner as who say halfe naked and lytell worth Ca. Now countreyman I can the very good thank it is surely well spoken But thou mayst se what it is for the mynde to be besyed with many thynges at ones / by the reason wherof it chaūceth somtyme that memory leseth nothynge more soner / then the very whiche it sholde kepe nothynge reddyer Therfore syns thou doste requyre as reason doth bynde me to declare why wherfore I haue showed the thus myche hytherto Doutles there be causes twayne / of the whiche one in very dede is trauth And the other without fayll is falshed For as touchynge the fyrste / yf I had founde any other then trauth in any thynge that I haue sayd / be thou well assured I wolde neuer haue spoken it yet that not withstandynge so myche had I not done for all that nother / yf I had not therto ben greatly moued by an excedynge and a wonders falshed The which in very dede is euen this The time is not yet farre out of mynde when of all euyls that worketh mannes destruction there was none taken so greuous odyble as in especyall heresye and treason / and of the twayne yet heresye the worst But now treason abydyng in his olde odibylyte styll as god forbede but it shold ī dede Heresye hath founde the meanes how so euer it cometh to passe so to haue crept out of that euyll fauorde garment of his dew hatred wherein it was ryghte worthyly wrapped hath ryde it selfe therof so clene / that it is now taken of some to be in maner but a commune offence agayne of some to be very small And also of some to be none at all ye and of some whiche is worst of all to be very relygyon holynesse / in so mych that when diuerse of such as be infected withal are spoken of rehersed and noted in copanyes and of one sort lamented and pytyed for such poyntes as therof they haue so playne open manyfest as in no case can be defended yet tushe sayeth an other sort a tryfle a small mater well is he that hath no faute the man is very sadde sober wyse for all that there can be no honester man then he is And so forth in suche maner that where as they haue not for it so myche as any glose or colour of defence / whiche for feate or shame they dare attempt to brynge forth / yet so mych as to them is possyble / they wolde by this meanes attenuate and qualyfye the mater so that they myght swade men to take it at the lest very lytell or nothynge blame worthy atal wherfore seyng this worde heresye hath / to say the trauth / among very many agaynst all ryght and reason lost his olde proper and worthylye most hatefull signyficacyon And now in the place therof hath as falsely purchaysed an other whiche is of all thynges most desyderable that is to saye the folowynge of chryst / for doutles now a dayes one is no soner to note an heretike but streight wey theyr fayleth not of ynow euen therin noted hym a folower of chryste / seynge therfore / I saye / that this worde heresye hath lost with many his olde sygnificacyon so farre vniustly And hath opteyned an other as excedynge falsely / ye bothe to the great perdicion of very many I wolde to god therfore some other worde were now put in the stede therof whiche myght dyrectely sygnifie and show men the selfe same thyng at the fyrst which it wyll surely lede and drawe the dew and iuste order of reason to espye and fynde in it at the last / that is to saye I wolde to god suche a worde were now put in the place of it / as myght playnely sygnyfy the very denyeng of chryst at the fyrst The whiche is not in it so obscure and darke / but that without fayle an apt and a hole mynde maye yet easely se and perceyue it at laste Therfore yf this were so / there is no man I thynke verely so crokedly cumberde with that clowde of dayngerous darkenesse but that it wold yet one waye or other some what fraye hym so rashely therin to vse hymselfe as many one doth god knoweth to the great hurt ▪ not onely of them selfe but also of dyuers other mo wherfore that this blynde falshed to make the thynge wonders lyght beynge among all other of moste greatest weyght shold not be alway to the vnknowen as I perceyue it hath ben hytherto so mych therof I haue disclosed as may me thynke be for the suffycyent And to that intent haue I treated hereof so largely and ben therin I feere somwhat tedyous vnto the. But euen now therfore wyll I to my pryncypall purpose dyrectely ¶ The .xxi. chap. Hereti ALthough ye make me very desyrous ye and euen thynke longe to heare it yet is there one thynge whiche doth not a lytell disquiete my mynde wherof fayne wolde I fyrst be somwhat eased yf it myght be Ca. what is the mater He. Syr now to be playn with you without fayle I haue hytherto borne half a grudge in my stomak agaynst a certayne thynge whyche ye spake at our fyrst metynge Ca. I praye the what was that Here. Doutles a thynge I maye saye to you that toucheth the quycke Ca. Thou makest me greately muse therat He. Not so mych as ye make me what sholde moue you to speake it Ca. I praye the what is it He. Marry syr ye sayed that I am an heretyke Ca. I had no such wordes to my knowledge Here. That is no mater when ye sayde that ye wolde haue asked me the questyon whether I were one or not yf it had
wherin the authoryte of scrypture or the myndes of olde holy doctours or els naturall reason doth well and surely make for hym vnto any of the which he that wyll not inclyne cleue and consent is vtterly no good christen man And therfore in this poynte ye reprehende hym without cause Ca. Not one whyt For yf all these authoritees which he bryngeth for hym make vtterly nothynge with hym in dede Thou shalt not then deny but that there doth no maner of thing remayn wherfore he shold be beleued / but onely as I sayde his owne very naked bare word Therfore when he deuydeth his boke in two partes / one wherin he wold ê“ue it no article of our fayth which we are bound to byleue that the very lyuely body of our sauyour chryst is presently in the sacrameÌ„t An other wherin he wold also ê“ue that he is not therin in dede Let vs omytte the great manyfest folyshnesse of this diuisioÌ„ vntyl we haue somwhat tryed how he proueth the fyrst part of it which he calleth the foundacion of his mater doth not a lytell boste it to be of no small streyngth Therfore what so euer thou hast found in his boke to make as thou thynkest any more for his purpose theÌ„ other / let me heare it / thou shalt sone se what I wyll saye to it He. Then wyll I tell you euen what he sayth at the fyrst Ca. Go to then quyckly He. Syr his very wordes doutles be euen these Fyrst vve must all aknovvlege / he sayth / that it is none article of our fayth / vvhich can saue vs / nor vvhich vve are bounde to byleue vnder the payne of eternall dampnacyon For yf I sholde byleue that his very naturall body both fleshe and blod vvere naturally in the brede vvyne / that sholde not saue me / seyng many byleue that / and receyue it to theyr dampnacyoÌ„ For it is not his presens in the brede / that can saue me / but his presens in my harte thorough fayth in his blode / vvhiche hath vvashed out my synnes / and pacyfyed the fathers vvrath tovvarde me And agayne yf I do not byleue his bodyly presens in the brede and vvyne / that shall not dampne me / but the absens out of my harte thorough vnbelefe Now syr what say you to this Ca. In very ded I say this to it / that fyrst we muste all a knowlege as it doth playnely appere that he hath here brought for hym none authoryte of scrypture none of olde holy doctours nor yet so myche as any one spark of reason or trauth other yf thou pouÌ„der marke it well for when he sayth we must all a knowledge that it is none article of our fayth why doth he adde this clause vnto it which we are bounde to byleue as who saye there be articles of our fayth this is one of them which we are not bouÌ„de to beleue He. Nay not so but vnder the payne he sayth of dampnacyon Ca. O as who saye yet vnder some other payne when euen after his owne doctrine there is iÌ„ this case bytwen god vs none other payne in dede but onely that for he doth styffely holde that there be no paynes of purgatory after this lyfe for all the paynes that here be concernynge such thinges he doth vtterli accouÌ„t reken to be but the very cruell tyrannye of men and doth nothynge bynde vs in consciens Therfore when there doth hang bytwen god vs no maner of payne vpon the defeccyon and faylynge of fayth in this article but dampnacyon only say we nor yet that nother sayth he as his owne apert wordes doth clerely testyfye Iustly to this it must nedes come / that when he sayth it is none article of our fayth whiche we are bounde to byleue vnder the payne of daÌ„pnacyon It is no more nor none other to say but euen that it is none artycle of our fayth which we are bounde to byleue vnder any maner of payne bytwene god vs. And what so euer is to vs vnder no payne / it is without fayle vnder no bouÌ„d at all For yf there be no payn vpon it / we may chose whether we wyl or not byleue it yf we may chose playne it is we are not bound yf we be not bouÌ„d to bileue it / doutles then are we not bound to byleue the trauth of chryst for surely the trauth of chryst is in it / or els it is in dede none article of our fayth Therfore yf that be it which Fryth doth meane that is to say that it is none article of our fayth in dede why then dyd he so pretely put vnto it this clause which we are bound to byleue as who say yet it is one for all ye. And agayne why dyd he adde vnto that also this vnder the payne of dampnacyon as who say yet vnder som other payne But let all that passe and marke me this Other he doth thynke it an article / or els he doth thynke it none yf he thynk it none how fals a teacher is he in this that he sayth we are not bounde to byleue it vnder the payne of dampnacion when it must nedes folow therof that it is no dampnable thynge to not byleue the trauth of chryst whiche is hym selfe For yf it be not the trauth of chryst / thou knowest as I sayd it can be none article of his fayth Agayne yf he thynke it no artycle how fals a lyer is he then in this that he sayth playnly it is onâ—â— as in the .xxvi. lefe of his boke it doeth apere by his owne wordes whiche be these Though it be / he sayth / an article of our fayth / it is none of our crede in the .xii. articles vvhich are sufficient for our saluacyon He. Marry syr this doeth open all the mater Ca. How so He. He sayth it is an artycle of our fayth / but yet it is none of our crede Ca. A so therfore we are not bound to byleue it an holsom doctrine it is no article of our crede nother that the gospels be trewe / therfore we are not bounde to byleue it it is none artycle of our crede nother that there was any such Peter Paule as we speke of therfore we be not bounde to byleue it it is none article of our crede nother that any of theyr epystles be trewe / therfore we are not bound to byleue it here is gay gere as they saye Howbeit I can fynde one artycle of our fayth whiche is none of our crede in the .xii. articles and yet we are bound to byleue it and that vnder payne of daÌ„pnacioÌ„ He. which is that Ca. without fayl that Fryth doth teach an excedyng folysh fals a deuylyshe doctrine He. Tushe not so syr for all this for although these thynges whiche ye speke of be not directely expressed among the .xii. artycles of our crede / yet perchaunce they may be
saynt Austeyn what saye you to it Ca. This same I saye to it All this same dyffyculte of this same poynte after this same maner is well put this same waye clere out of dout This same errour of this same felow made hym of this same blyndnesse that he was of this same iudgemeÌ„t that this same word the same / coude none otherwyse be vnderstande but euen the same way that he thought the same sholde drawe men from the same fayth whiche all trewe chrysten people doth holde / and brynge them into the same heresye whiche the same Fryth hym selfe doth teache And And all this same I saye dyd he by the reason of this same worde / the same For as one in a maze is he not now in the same pathe where he began And therfore euen iust in the same cace that he was than is there any other cause why he doth alledge these wordes of saynt Austeyn but that he sayth they dyd eat and drinke the same spirituall meat and drynke that we do For what yf he had put in this worde / an other in the place of this word / the same or els had left them clene out bothe â–ª He. Syr that had ben an other mater the text had then ben nothynge for Frithes purpose and therfore he wolde not alledged it / yf it had ben so Ca. Thou sayest very trauth and therfore all that semeth any thynge herein to make for hym thou mayst well perceyue doth onely rest as I saye in this same worde / the same And haste thou not haerd ynough what a proper principle it is beynge vndefyned to proue or coÌ„clude any thinge by Neuerthelesse I wold yet wete of Fryth whether saynt Austeyne dyd here mene the same in dede or the same in effecte whiche hath betwene them no small difference as thou shalt hereafter more clerely perceyue thy selfe And therfore by cause he doth now here agayne leue styll the menynge of this same worde / the same / so dowtfull and in certeyn as he dyd before the hole pythe of his purpose consystynge therin Clere it is that nothynge therof can folowe nor certeynly be proued by it as thou thy selfe hast suffycyently seen haerde all redy Besyde this / a questyoÌ„ he myght al so be asked of this worde spirituall whether saynt Austeyn ment it to be referred / onely to the meat whiche he doth so call / or also to the intent of them which dyd eat it or more ouer to showe sume dyfference betwene our eatynge and theyrs / or elles to show wherin theyr eatyng agreed with ours All this I saye he myght well be asked / bycause it ought of necessyte to be dyscussed before any conclusyon theruppon were attempted howbeit it is no mater with Fryth so that he maye alwaye fyrst conclude what so euer he doth intende / afterwarde clene slyppe ouer the certitude of his princyple at latter ende As though where in dede lyeth no lesse theÌ„ all there were vtterly no mater at all Therfore whyle there be fewe of whom this falshed can be perceyued Small wonder it is though many be quickly therwith deceiued He asketh nothyng more of all his dilygent readers / then to beware of all those same sophisters / whyche wyll make them perceyue hym to be one of those warrears / That are of all other the chyefe spirituall murderars Beware of sophistrye beware cryeth he yet one that vseth it more dydest thou neuer set And therfore of hym what a sophyster fynde we But one of the worste that is possyble to be for immedyatly after those wordes of saynt Austen he bryngeth in the wordes of saynt Beda which in latyn are eueÌ„ these Uidete auteÌ„ fide manente signa vaâ—iata This torned into englyshe is thou knowest none other to say But beholde the signes are chaunged the fayth abydynge The which Fryth doth englyshe after this maner sayenge Beholde that the signes are altered and yet the fayth abydeth one So that where saynt Beda sayth no more but the fayth abydeth cometh he addeth vnto it this same worde one / sayeynge the fayth abydeth one to the intent he myght therby make it sounde that saynt Bede had ment the fayth abydynge so that it is all one and the same in euery respect without any dyfference as it was before the incarnacyon But how false that is as Fryth doth take it / thou hast harde therof ynough at large all redy Therfore what a raynardes point of him is this so craftely as who say to drope in suche a worde as myght soone cause the holy mans mynde to be otherwyse taken then euer he dyd mene dyfferth it nothynge to say it abydeth and to saye it abydeth one A man of .iiii. score yeres so longe abydeth but yet so longe he abideth not one for he is one thynge before ten or xii yeres of age the which he is not after .xxiiii. and an other at .lxxx. which he was not at .xxx. for fyrste a yonge tender chyld increasynge and after a lusty man at his full strength but at last a feble impoteÌ„t person almost wytherd awaye / and therfore iÌ„ these caces he abideth not one but rather another another so furth in many other lyke This same worde one Fryth doeth not here put it to sygnyfie as doth one which is the fyrste begynnynge of number / but he doth put it to signyfye none other then doth this same worde / the same / And this same worde / the same / semeth all waye as I tolde the before that he both and wolde haue it taken to signyfye the same without any maner of dyfference As in very dede so doth it in that respect onely wherof it is ment But that myssed and wrong taken as no maruel why that very oft tymes it is so in dede then doth it mych deceyue and nothynge els Therfore where he doth put in this same worde one doutles he myght as well haue put iÌ„ this same word the same But that he wold not do lest by the reason therof it shold be the soner spyed that euen onely therin doeth reste all his hole presumption of brynging his purpose to passe bycause he is alway so besye therwith that euery man may soone see that he nother doth nor yet can clayme any thynge for hym of saynt Austeyn but onely the word And therfore in the stede therof to colour the mater as with some dyuersyte he wolde stele in this word one / to make another sound in meÌ„s cares but yet none other signifycacyon in theyr myndes for trust me trewly he hath no maner of thyng of faynt Austeyn or any other whiche is none / but onely saynt Beda in the wordes before rehersed that can so mych as seme to make any beke towarde this part of his purpose but onely this same word the same / catche it where he can And that is the very cause why that he cleuyth euen so faste and ernestlye vnto
it where so euer he can fynde it But where he can not yet yf he may spye any corner of a sentence where it may but scant seme to be sufferd yf it were put to it In with it he goth at aueÌ„ture trustyng therby to wrynge all the rest to his owne fonde folysshe and euyll purpose Therfore all though thou hast seen and hard ynough to knowe that this I do not feyne yet that it myghte more largely apere lette me heare sumwhat of his owne mynde what he sayth to these foresayd authorytees hym selfe The .xxx. chap. Hereticus Syr that shall ye do / for consequently in that same .v. leefe these be his wordes 〈◊〉 these places / he sayth / you may playnly perceyue / not onely that it is none article necessary to be beleued vnder payne of damnacion / seynge the olde fathers neuer beleued it / and yet dyd eat cryst in fayth / both before they had the manna / more expressely thorough the manna And with no lesse fruyte after the manna was ceased And albeit the manna was to them as the sacrament is to vs / and they eate euen the same spirituall meate that we do / yet were they neuer so madde / aâ— to byleue / that the manna was chaunged into criâ—tes owne naturall body but vnderstode it spiritually / that as the outwarde man dyd eate the materiall manna which conforted the body so dyd the inwarde man thorongh fayth eate the body of crist / beleuynge that as the manna came downe from heuen and conforted theyr bodies so sholde theyr sauiour crist / which was promised them of god the father / come downe from heuen and strengthe theyr soules in euerlastynge lyfe / redemynge them from theyr synne by his deth and resurreccion And likwyse do we eat crist in faith bothe before we come to the sacrament / and more expressely thorough the sacrament And with no lesse fruyte after we haue receyued the sacrament and nede no more to make it his naturall body then the manna was / but myght mych better vnderstande it spiritually / that as the outward man doth eate the naturall brede whiche comforteth the body / so doth the inward man thorough fayth eat the body of christ / beleuyng that as the brede is broken / so was cristes body brokeÌ„ on the crosse for our synnes / which comforteth our soules vnto lyfe euerlastynge And as that fayth dyd saue them / without beleuynge that the manna wal altered into his body euyn so doth the fayth saue vs. All though we beleue not / that the substauÌ„ce of brede is torned into his naturall body For the same fayth shall saue vs which saued them And we are bounde to byleue no more vnder payne of damnacion / then they were bounde to byleue Now syr this is parte of his mynd Ca. Thow sayest euen trawth And therfore yf thow marke it wel sum what after his owne wordys of these places thow mayest playnely perceyue not onely by the presence of this worde / not onely / but also by the absence of this worde / but also / that he at the fyrste intended to shewe vs two thinges The tone of the whyche notede with this word not onely / he hath here as thou seest declared all redy But the tother dependynge theruppon / and ought to be noted with this word / but also He doth vtterly passe ouer clene let it go For he roÌ„neth so wonders faste and can not tell hother / that he forgetteth tone ende of his tale whyle he telleth vs the tother or elles he doeth purposely resarue kepe it in store / tyll he speake with vs hym self to show that and more He. Tushe syr ye do but mock hym now Ca. why cuntreyman what woldest thou haue me do for to pytte hym thou knowest well it is to late To prayse hym there is vtterly no cause To holde my peace in this mater were to farre agayne conscyence And what remayneth but alwaye so to speake as he doth mynister occasyon Therfore wher he sayth that the olde fathers were neuer so madde as to byleue that the manna was chaunged into cristes owne naturall body / for what purpose doth he tell vs that when euery man knoweth it as well as he All though no good man wolde expresse it in such termes consyderyng what persons they were for that they dyd not so beleue there is no man dowteth therin wheÌ„ it was neuer so sayd vnto them nor commauÌ„ded that they shold so do And a very good cause why when there was then no such thynge in dede for the blessed body of our sauyour chryste in those dayes was not As Fryth I suppose wyll not denye / but that now iÌ„ very dede it is And also sayde of his owne moste holy mouth to be in the sacrament to / wherfore herein there is no more to saye / but as it apereth playne that all those which beleue that the substaunce of the brede by the vertue of the holy consecracyon is torned into the very body of cryst Fryth doth note and acounts to be madde in so doynge That is to wyte All Englyshmen / welshmen / eâ—yshmen Frenshmen scotys daines â—â—uch men spayniardes portyngals Italians with all other trewe crysten nacions For doutles al those doth so byleue He. Nay syr not all for all can not be sayd of englyshmen onely nor yet of dyuers other partycular nacyons besyde for some among them byleuethe other wyse Ca. And well spoken as who say there is no horse that maye be sayd all whyte bycause he is not without sum black / vnder the tayle He. Syr in good fayth that is but a scornefull example Ca. yet it is to this purpose sumwhat agreable mete ynough for thyne obieccyon Howbeit sumwhat better to conteÌ„t the withall it is sayd amysse that such such feldes be full of corne by cause they are not eche of them without some and to mych 〈◊〉 among it what yf there be such heretykes sume to many as Fryth was among englyshmen other trewe crysteÌ„ nacyons besyde doth that let the trauth of this / that all those nations beleue the very substaunce of the brede thorough the holy consecracyon to be torned into the very blessed body of cryste All those multytudes thou seest he doth recken therin to be madde He doth not except all or any trew crysteÌ„ prynces About whom there lacketh not men in wyt grauite lernynge of the best sort that maye be had which seme not of all men to be lyghtly deceyued wher of in this mater specyally they are vtterly moost lothe doeth the sadnesse therfore of Fryth show vs madnes in all crysten prynces / in all theyr prudent and wyse counsellars / and in all theyr multitudes of peoples innumerable vnder them or ellys doth the sadnes of all those showe vs the madnesse of hym I requyre no answere of this but consyder it well with thy selfe Therfore what is there more in all
here no suche worde yf thou say that he doth not alledge hym in this word bred but therwith expoune hym / then fals is his exposycyon bycause he foloweth not the mynde of his author For coude not saynt Austeyn hym selfe haue put in this worde / bred / as wel as this word / an other thynge / yf he had so ment or hadde not sene some cause to the coÌ„trary was his mynde so occupied that he thought not vpon that which was moste present reddy and apte to be thought on or coude he not call the worde to remebraunce bycause bothe it and also the thynge that it sygnifyeth was so straunge farre out of vse he stycketh not at manna but expresseth it with the proper name of it dyrectely why stayeth he at this more then at that why doth he touch this with no proper name but with a worde commune and indyfferent in maner to all thynges wold he refrayne so reddy a thynge and se no cause why yf he saw any what was it Frith wyl not put this in dysputacyon vnto vs he wold not heare of it / he had leuer haue vs forget it it maketh not for his purpose as it shall well appere hereafter He. yet syr in som other places saynt Austen hymselfe doth cal it brede dyrectely Ca. why therfore doth Frith alledge hym so here where he doth not so call it / wyll not alledge hym there where he doeth call it so what meneth he therby doth it sygnyfye nothyng I wyll well that saynt Austeyn so doth call it / and that diuers tymes but yet neuer without suche a certeyne conuenyent cyrcuÌ„stauÌ„ce with all as declareth what he meneth therin the whiche cyrcumstaunce Fryth ê‘ceyueth to make no lesse agayn hym / Then the word brede semeth to souÌ„de with hym And therfore bycause the worde and the cyrcumstaunce he can not fynde a sonder / he hymself wolde pryke in the tone in some other corner as thou seest hym here this craftely assay / where he doth thynke the cyrcumstaunce is away And this is the very thing I maye trewly saye to the whiche openeth the mysterye of all his mater to them that haue eyen to se wherfore take this for a generall rule that when so euer thou thynkest hym to brynge in any authorite / yet yf he vnderstande it after this fassyon He bryngeth for hym in dede euen none at all / but onely pretende that he doth and vnder the color therof bryngeth no more but his owne bare mynd a lone as I wyll now promyse the before thou shalt euydently se hym none other wyse do hereafter The .xxxiii. Chapi Catho YE but yet syr your coÌ„unycacyon doth me thynke myche to this dyrectely sound / that fryth euen very purposely went about to deceiue Howbeit there is I suppose no maÌ„ lyuynge of any conscyence at all whiche can beleue that euer he or any other wolde be so vnhappy to play the pranke in a mater so great for what other thynge were it so to do but euen wylfully to daÌ„pne hym selfe To deceyue and deceyue purposely is two thynges / for one may somtyme chaunce to deceyue yet be not ware of it Ca. Trauth it is howbeit thou must yet coÌ„sider this / that the falshed of his opinion whiche he wolde men sholde byleue / is one thynge but the waye that he taketh to make it credyble / that is to wyt his processe or treates and all his handelynge therof / is an other thyng Bycause the tone is for the tother / and therfore muste they nedes be dyuers wherfore as touchynge the fyrst / that is the falshed of his opinion / he was perchaunce not ware of that but toke it for trew And although he went about to derceyue yet peraduenture not wyttyngly therin But as concernyng the tother parte that is to wyt his hole processe all his dysputacyon handelynge of the mater to brynge it in credence withall It is not possyble but he must nedes beware of that for it was his owne studyouse acte and voluntarye labour purposed for the nonest or ellys thou knowest thy selfe it had neuer ben wryten And than had he neuer left the book behynde hym Therfore bycause all this was and is none other but a certeyne conueyaunce of hym deuysed to brynge his opynioÌ„ into mens byleue And bycause his opinion by this mene coueyd in dede is none other but vtterly fals It must nedes folow that all this mene is none other but euen a conueyauÌ„ce of falshed And is a coÌ„ueyauÌ„ce of falshed any other thyng but a fals conueyaunce And what other thynge is a false conueyauÌ„ce but vtterly very falshed it self He. why syr by this reason al that euer he doeth is false Ca. Neuer dout therin / for what so euer trauth is ons brought to verifie falshed with all / doutles is euen therin falsified it self / bycause yf it were not thereto brought with a false sence / it wolde vtterly destroye falshed not vpholde it / it wolde make it open and manyfest and neuer color nor hyde it Therfore whyle this falshed that is to wyt / his fals conueyaunce which he purposely wyttyngly and warly wrought prouyded to verifye the falshed of his opinyon withall coude not be hyd from hym beynge his owne proper and voluntarye acte studyously labored as I said for thou nonest Thou canst by no reason excuse hym but at lest in this he went euen purposely about to deceyue men / excepte thou wylt say that what so euer he wrote he dyd it as a maÌ„ in a trauÌ„ce vnwars without any intent or purpose why And then must thou nedes ascrybe and impute the wylful purpose cause and intent therof without the whiche it coude neuer be done to some cursed occult and wycked spryt by whom he was led therin as an ignorant instrument He. what ledde with some wycked spyrit nay syr not so Ca. I wolde thou were able well to auoyde it He. That can I sone do Ca. which way He. Euen this / suppose that his opinyon were fals as ye saye that it is Ca. why art thou but at the supposycyon therof yet so mych as thou hast harde of it He. Tushe that is no mater Ca. yes it is a mater and that a lamentable / how so euer thou takest it Howbeit I do not greattly merueyll therat knowyng therin as I knowe He. why what knowe ye therin Ca. Forth with that thou hast in hande I wyll tell the herafter He. Marry syr suppose I say that his opinion were fals as ye say it is for the whiche it wolde folowe that all his hole processe conueyaunce therof to make it credyble withall were false to by the reason of the same yet as he is well ware what his opinyon is but not that it is false Euen so is he well ware to what his processe and all his conueyaunce therof is but not that it is the conueyaunce of any falshed
/ wheÌ„ so farre as he is ware of there is in dede none suche For as he thynketh his opinioÌ„ is trew Euen so he thynketh is al that euer he doth to proue it by And therfore he teacheth no falshed wyttyngly The .xxxiiii. chap. Catho TThou spekest well for hym But yet therfore I pray the how cometh this to passe that one hauynge not halfe the wytte or lernyng that he was thought to haue before he fell to these folyshe fonde and erroneous opinions / can sone perceyue so mych folly and falshed in his boke that there is in maner no lefe without yet he hym selfe coude see therof none at all How I say cometh this to passe May we not thynke that he met with the faculte whiche causeth a man as they saye The lenger he lyueth the more fole he wereth That is to say the more he taketh of it the les wyt he hath for yf he sawe any falshed therin then went he wyttyngly about to deceyue yf he saw none where is so myche / what bytter smooke so trombled his eyes that he coud not espye some part of it was he not taken troest thou in to the tuition of some darke tutor which for all thy sayenge caused hym therin to wander he wyst nere where how myght we thynke otherwyse yf we with dilygence perpende well the mater For the very trauth to say yf the deuyll hym selfe were at the lybertye to be incarnate / and euen so to come amonge vs onely to entyce and lede vs from any artycle of our fayth Let me se ymagyon thy selfe how it were possyble for that father founten of all craftye falshed to inuente for that purpose any maner of wyell comparable to this which we fynde in fryth That is to wyt to heare vs in hande it is indyfferent and at our owne lybertye to byleue it or not there is no parell in the mater take whiche part we lyste for how many trewe men is there in this world touched with neuer so lytel a nede / that myght not sone be brought to stelynge yf they were borne in hande and so ê‘swaded to thynke in dede that it were an act indyfferent without all maner of parell to them that wold vse it ye what maner of euyls are they whiche men now full honeste wolde then forbere and refrayne wherin yf they thought were to theÌ„ no daynger Or which way myght they so easely be led vnto them as to be styffely so borne in hand ye make them but ones beleue that lede them no fardyr for it shal then be no nede at all a maruelous zele of iustyce hath he that wolde not sone pley the thyfe at a companioÌ„s request / yf he were ons brought in opinyon that therin coude be to hym no maner of parell thus lerned Fryth / of whom so euer he was taught / that he hadde a wonders faste fayth in this blessed sacrameÌ„t which wold not sone be conteÌ„t to leue it yf he were ons brought in opinion that therin coud come vnto hym no hurt he saw it a matter of most difficulte to bryng cristeÌ„ people froÌ„ that fayth direcly but he saw it agayn a mater as easy yf they myght ons be made beleue no parell therin yf they so dyd fulwell he wyst brynge them ons to that opynion and let them then alone them selfe it shuld be ynowgh with the helpe of his owne darke doctor whiche taught hym this lesson for doutles from whens it came the ê“pertees therof themselfe doth apertely show / as mych as the most excedynge wylynesse falshed and folishnesse that may be is able to do of the wylynesse wherof we now speke what shuld I say but marke it well with deliberation indyfferently be iudge thyselfe whether it doth not in thy consyderacyon so swel and incresse that it wexeth in maner incomprehensyble Of the falshed about the openynge wherof we haue ben almost all this whyle all though no man be able suffycyeÌ„tly to expresse it yet therof so mych hast the harde as is farre from the nede of any more Of the folyshnesse there is not els to be sayde / but I am sure thou neuer hardest nor sawe the lyke For who but he that dwelleth in so depe a doungeoÌ„ of darkenesse that he can see no maner of lyght wolde make any maner of dyuysyon in a mater and yet playnly houlde that there is vtterly no such mater to deuide For the tone part of his work wherof now we haue well tryed ynough to se what it is is onely to proue that no man is bounde to beleue the blessed bodyly presence of our sauyour chryst in the sacrameÌ„t but yet that euery maÌ„ without any parell so maye byleue yf he wyll And the tother parte / as all his boke doth clerely testyfye / is to proue that there is vtterly no suche thynge in dede for to byleue wherof / besyde his hye connynge dyuisyon of this indiuisible nothyng after his own doctrine / playne it is that he teacheth vs manyfestely god rewarde hym as he knoweth beste euen to haue a false byleue when he sayth we may beleue that hym selfe doth saye is not and yet hym selfe wyll not beleue that he and we do saye there is For we say it is an artycle of our fayth / and euen so sayth he Howbeit he holdeth it indyfferent to beleue it or not / but yet so do not we And for that cause he wyll not byleue it one whyt tyll we do both agre The which he hath brought so nye the poynt that now it wyll neuer be And therfore wyll I tell the one thynge more / which I had clene forgotten before Here. what was that Ca. An other prety cause why that he / as I showed the / so deuydeth all the other verytees of scripture from those .xii in the cred He. what cause shuld that be Ca. In the laste lefe of his booke his owne wordes doeth well declare whiche be these There are many veritees / he sayeth / whiche yet maye be no suche articles of oure feythe He. Is this all Ca. Nay not so but fyrst what articles meneth he by these no such He. No such as be of our crede Ca. well sayd And what verytees doth he meane here that may be no suche articles He. All the other veritees of scrypture Ca. Heare his wordes agayne with those that foloweth and therin let them be iudge There are / feyth he / many veritees which yet may be no suche articles of oure feythe It is trwe that I laye in yrons when I wroote this how beit I wolde not reseyue this truth for an article of oure feyth for yow maye thynke the coÌ„trary without all â—â—oberty of dampnation Consyder well now this gere together And thou mayst sone perceyue that this same ensample of his imprisonmeÌ„t doth clerely show that he meneth not here by these same / many veritees / any veritees of scrypture but the veritees