to John de Albines booke is extant vnder the tytle of a deliberate aunswere to a rash offer c. and it vvas printed by Iohn Charlewoode in London 1588. They both haue vvith their aunswere set downe the words of the offerer The trauels of these two men haue eased both me this booke of mine of medling any further then I haue sayed with that Chalenger and the rather because since hee had his first aunswere we neuer yet heard that hee had either skill or will to replie I might well ynough considering the largenesse and sufficiency of Master Crowleys answere thereunto haue omitted that vvhich I further haue sayed to aunswere his six signes not touched by Doctor Fulke but that vvhat I haue vvritten thereabout vvas written before I sawe Master Crowleys answere and that I thought it not amisse to let it stande that so betvvixt vs three the vvhole thus might bee tvvyse aunswered Though it were Master Crowley vvho as I noted before in the first leafe of his booke making aunswere to this offer that gaue that iudgement that Iohn de Albines booke had beene the cause of so much apostasy of late here amongst vs yet he as he there shows would not bestowe tyme in aunswering of it because supposing by the title it was written by a Frenchman therefore either in french or latine he thought that either Beza or some other french protestant had done it already sufficiently This when I redde first it caused me to be the slacker both in finishing and publishing this answere of mine Yet in the ende forasmuch as this was now amongst vs in English and therefore in his opinion had hurt so much and so many English persons and I could neuer learne of any certainty that in any other language it had beene directly answered by any I thought it needefull and the best way whether any such answere in any other tongue had beene made vnto it elsewhere or not to preuent as much as maie bee anie further such danger amongst vs by it to accompany such poyson with his fit counterpoyson that is such an English popish discourse with an English christian answere And the rather because howsoeuer by the title there is shew that the author was a Frenchman yet indeede I can hardly be perswaded that he was so For his publisher in English taking leasure as he hath to trouble his reader with a long tedious and friuolous preface hath not therein so much as secretly once insinuated vnto vs in what language the author wrote it yea he hath not once meÌ„tioned any traÌ„slation of it either by himselfe or any other the consideration whereof together with sundry phrases and matters conteined in the booke makes me rather thinke that some of our owne fugitiues English Iesuits or seminary priests indeede haue made it then any such Archdeacon of Tolosa in France as is pretended But howsoeuer it be in this respect it is not much materiall and therefore I haue not beene herein curious for these my reasons notwithstanding in all this my answere vnto him I frame my speech as to the author whose name it beares And howsoeuer I may doubt of his person and cuntrey of this I am certaine whosoeuer he were French or English the sonne of that bondwoman Ismael was neuer cunninger in persecuting the son of the freewoman Isaac with scoffes mocks then the author thereof was by the same meanes to doe what might be done to vex and grieue vs. Whosoeuer he was the right popish vaine spirit of writing he had For in so short a peece of worke I am perswaded by that you haue viewed him ouer together with this answer of mine your Lordship will be of opinioÌ„ that neuer any of that factioÌ„ weÌ„t beyond him in shameful begging alwaies the things most in questioÌ„ in subtle slipping froÌ„ the matters vndertakeÌ„ to proue into other more easy for him not in question in false quoting abusing the testimonies which he alleadges or in barrennes of matter or methode in such copy of swelling bragging and triumphing words Sure I am for my owne part though I know these be the common ornaments of popish writers that I neuer redde any whose book coÌ„sisted so wholy of these as this of his But to leaue him as hee is whosoeuer he was and to returne vnto your Lordship once againe I dedicate and offer this my poore labour vnto your honourable view protection which I doe not because the truth of god which I haue therein taught and defended standeth neede of the patronage of man For god the author thereof can and will defende and protect that though al the great meÌ„ in the world should band themselues against it but for diuers and sundry other reasons iustly me mouing thereunto One is which I haue touched already that of right the dedication hereof appertayneth to you because I had neuer taken it in hand but by your Lordships motion perswasion An other is that you since my comming to the place where I am for these eleuen years last past haue alwaies been yet are a most louing fatherly patrone to my ministry mee and mine by which right though that former reason had not beene your honour may worthily chalenge not onely in this but also in all other such poore fruites of mine growing from me thus nourished and cherished vnder your Lordshippes patronage greater interest then this which I offer you nowe herein But if neither of these two reasons had been yet you being the man you are that is by the grace goodnesse of God as far as you are knowen which is very farre amongst the godly and truly religious a man by birth honourable for martiall prowesse more and for giftes of sounde learning religion and vertue most of of all to be honoured and esteemed euen that would haue drawen me though otherwise I had been a meare stranger vnto you by this means to haue sought to haue testified my duetifull and hartie good affection towardes you For pietie ioyned with Christian nobilitie hath been the auncieÌ„t cause why the godly learned in auncient times haue dedicated their works to such as they haue iudged truly qualified therewith doubtlesse therby both the better to encourage them to whom they dedicated their labours to proceede and goe on in the good course they had begun and thereby to prouoke others to imiâ—ate their good exaÌ„ple that the like honourable opinion may by such also bee conceaued of them likewise when occasion should serue to their comfort testified publickely of them in the church of God What else mooued Ambrose to dedicate his bookes of fayth and the spirite to Gratian the Emperour What else caused Lactantius to dedicate his diuine instituâ—â—ons to Constantine or what else enduced the holy â—uangelist S. Luke to dedicate his historie of the â—ctes of the Apostles to noble Theophilus It was â—oubtlesse great honour vnto these men in their â—imes in the churches of Christ
their doctrine was not new for whē they begā to preach vnto the gentils Idolaters i For the 9. they did not at the first preach Iesus Christ but they did seeke to blot out of the minds of the simple people the foolish opinion that they had in the multitude of Gods to teach them that there was but one God who had created the heauē earth who sendeth raine in time of neede all things els that are required for the sustenāce of mā k This he preacht but this was not al therefore he preaching somewhat that was new both to Iewe and Gentile namely that Iesus was the Christ therefore in that respect he his fellows had need to confirme their doctrine by signes and wonders This is the doctrin that S. Paul did preach as we read in the * Act. 14. Acts. This doctrine was not new amōg men although it were so that they were Painims l And therefore you bestow much needelesse cost to proue this point no new doctrine touching the vnity of the Godheade and the verity thereof for not onlie in Moses lawe nor in the law of Grace but euen by the lawe of Nature God hath beene knowen euen of those which were not of the familie of Abraham Isaac Iacob vnto whom the promise of the incarnation of Christ was made Of this doeth Abimilech the King of Gerar beare witnesse who did excuse himselfe before God for the wife of Abraham hee could neuer haue knowen how to talke thus with God if he had not knowen him * Gen. 20. Besides this he made Abraham to swear by the inuocatiō of the saied God that neither he nor his heires should suffer anie dammage by his posterity * Gen. 24. Bathuel did likewise know God whē he cōfessed that he was the authour of the mariage of his daughter with Abrahams son euen so Abimilech the king of the Palestines Phicol Ochosath saied vnto Isaac We heare that God is with thee therfore we are come to make alliance togither * m Judg. 2. Adonibezeth although he were a Gentile did not he confesse one God m Iudg. the first you would say when he saied that he had giuen him the selfesame punishment that he had giuen the .70 kings Iob al his frends although they were Gentiles haue auouched one God to be the Creatour of heauē earth euen aswell as the Israelites as it doeth appeare by the discourse of the said Iob. If we read the histories of the Paynims we shal finde that they beare witnes of one God among themselues Diogenes Laertius ◠the liues of the Philosophers doeth write that the Emperour Adrian did demaunde of a Philosopher celled Secundus what God was He answered God is an immortall spirit incomprehensible containing al the world a light and a soueraigne goodnes True it is that this Secundus was bolder to speake of God then another Philosopher called Simonides of whom Tullie doeth write in his first booke De naturâ deorum vnto whom when the tyrant Hiero did demaunde of him what God was that he had giuen him diuers daies of respuit to answer him at the last he saied that he did acknowledge in him an infinite of al things Cicero himselfe in the first question of his Tusculanes doeth gouerne giue the being to all things And in diuers places of that worke he doeth wel expresse that he knew wel that there was one God and that the Gods that the Gentiles did worship were but mortall men And in the saied booke he saieth that we know God by his works in the which hee doeth not much differ from Dauid saying * Psal 18. That the heauens declare the glory of God and the firmament doeth anounce his workes And in the 40. Chapter of Esay when God did talke with the Gentiles he did cal his works to beare witnes of his greatnes Lift vp your eies saieth he and beholde who hath made this And the * Sap. 13 Sage doeth say that men through their vanity haue not knowen God by his works And * Rom. 1. Saint Paul doeth absolutely condemne them saying that they can procure no excuse of ignorance for the inuisible things such as is the diuinitie of God maie be knowen by the visible thinges And therefore they are vnexcusable hauing hidden the trueth of God to vniustice for after that they haue knowen him they haue not giuen him that thankes and honour that they should haue done but they haue beene deceiued through their owne subtilitie making a profession of knowledge they haue beene founde foolish and ignoraunt S. Augustine 8. lib. de Ciu. dei cap. 24. doeth reckon Mercurius called Hermes Trimegistus among these forasmuch as he did continue in his owne errour although he knewe by that that one maie see in his owne writinges that his auncetours did err greatlie in the making and worshipping of so manie Gods The XVIII Chapter INdeede euen as you suppose in this case we further aunswere you as the Iewes were answered by Christ telling you that you are an adulterous and peruerse generation in thus demaunding signes to confirme a doctrine already of ancient time sufficiently confirmed But this answere you say cannot be iustly made to you because neither we are faithful messengers from God as Christ was nor you so hard harted as these Iewes were Trueth it is we dare not compare in faithfulnes with Christ for such comparison were odious but with S. Paul we protest that in seruing the God of our fathers according to that Religion which you count heresie beleeuing all that is writen in the law the Prophets we haue alwaies endeuoured to keepe a good conscience both before God and mā Act. 24. and as for you we see no cause to the contrary but that you may both for malice against the trueth and hard hartednes be compared with the Iewes For though we worke no miracles and they then had seene Christ to worke many yet our doctrine beeing the same that he taught and no other as we are alwaies ready and willing to proue it to be by the scriptures it hath beene confirmed not only by all the miracles that then Christ had wrought but also by all them that since were wrought by him or his Apostles to confirme the same and therefore you yet refusing to beleeue it shew as great hardnes of hart as they did rather more Indeed if we took vpon vs either any callings not warrāted by the Lord in his word or to preach any doctrine which we could not warrant by the canonicall scriptures you might with some reason call for some miracles of vs but seeing you cā proue neither of these against vs you may with more reason giue ouer this obiection then to pursue it any further Indeede we are not ashamed to confesse that these are two principall reasons which are here remēbred by you wherby we proue
that it is possible that such filthy heretiques as Seruetus was may shewe themselues stout in dying But what is all this to proue that our martyrs haue broken the vnion of the Catholique Church or that they died as heretiques for heresie Before you can say any thing to the purpose either to proue them no true martyrs or to blemish their patience you should haue proued that their cause and religion for which they died was not the sound Christian trueth and faith but that you wil neuer bee able to doe And therefore both al this and what els you haue noted though falsely for there is no such thing in either of these two places out of Augustine contra Epistolam Petiliani of the Donatistes forwardnesse to die and out of Cyprians first booke of Epistles falleth downe to the ground as needles besides the questiō For whatsoeuer they there spake they spake it of heretickes therfore it hath no force against vs vntil you can proue vs so in alleadging Cypriās testimony by the way of parēthesis you say we know of what Church hee spake when hee sayed the heretiques that hee wrote of could not bee saued because they separated themselues from the Church the house of peace Indeed wee knowe that hee ment not your Church which is a bloudie house a house of warre cōtentiō a house of error superstitiō but the Church of Christ that was in his time to with yours is not so like as a drunken man is to a sober discreet man or a whore vnto an honest matrone for there is likelihood in substāce though not in quality yours is vnlike to the Church then in both Zischa you cal a martial minister of the Heborites or Hussites you would say or at least I am sure you should say a noble martiall Captaine for minister he was none of them whom their malitious enimies nickenamed Thaborites or Hussites for so they were called not as you call them At your pleasure you call Michael Seruet Caluins dearling but you cānot proue that he was euer in any such accoūt with Caluin why you should tearme him so But yet if he had beene so thorow his cunning in dissembling his heresie for a time the more commendation was it to Caluin that when he proued an obstinate heretique hee was so earnest and zealous in the cause of his God that all former affection set a part he furthered his due punishment as he did And for al your speech of his willingnes to die at Geneua and great patience in dying I cannot read but that he shunned death there as much as he could keeping or holding still his heresie and that thousands haue died on the gallowes for murder felonie and treason with as great shew of courage and patience as he But to let these things passe and to returne againe to your principall drifte in this which was as you shewe in the beginning of it to proue that neither our vocation nor religion could get any credit by the inuincible patience of our holy martyrs what hath bene saied as yet to proue this Your onely argument hitherto hath beene this The cause that a man dyeth for must bee good and hee must bee no heretique many heretiques haue dyed with great shew of patience Ergo c. This argument is starke naught for al these things in your antecedent may be graunted and yet of al them togither your conclusion followeth not These thinges which are not at al in question you haue proued but this that indeed should haue giuē life to your argument that ours died in and for an ill cause were heretiques which is indeede the thing onely in question like a wise man because you could not proue it you let alone But therfore you shall be contented for al your miserable crauing of it to bee granted you to be denied both it and your conclusion which without it you can neuer come vnto You will therefore proue as you make your reader beleeue that our Martyrs were such as died in an ill cause as heretiques and therefore went to hel But what be your proofes Ioachim Westphalus a Lutheran in a worke of his but it seemeth either you could not or would not tel vs in what worke for some politique reason you had doubtles mocked at Caluin for vaūting but where he made this vaunt or where we may finde it you tel vs not that within fiue yeares aboue an hundred had died for the religion of Geneua prouing vnto him that seeing there had beene far moe of the Anabaptistes put to death in lesse space and that the Deuill had his Martyrs his religion was no whit confirmed or countenanced by his Martyrs but they might for all his bragge be in the vauntgard of the Deuils martyrs What a miserable argument is this A contentious man in the heat of his contention saied thus to disgrace his aduersary and his side therefore therupon it shall follow that it was well and truely saied of him I thinke you will grāt me that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were good men both yet in heat of contention one against another Epiphanius burst out into such choler as he saied that he hoped the other should neuer die bishop to whō Chrysostōe answered as angerly again that he trusted the other should neuer returne aliue into his own cuntrey of Cypres infinite be the examples whereby we may see that men otherwise haue in heate of contention marueylously ouershot themselues one against another And therefore God forbid that vpon euery speach of disgrace vttered in such a case by one against another should by and by a firme argument be gathered that it is euen so as the one hath saied of the other But you will say you stād not so much vpō his speach against Caluins Martyrs as vpō that that there were mo of the Anabaptists that had died in a shorter space then he talked of and that otherwise the deuil hath had his martyrs which we cānot deny Hereupon indeed it followeth that an argument drawen to iustifie an opinion and the followers of it from the bare death and shew of patience of them that hold it is not good but so did neuer any of vs reason For first we labour to proue the cause good and that done then in the patience of such as haue died in so good cause togither with the cause we take comfort And yet in trueth we are sure we may speak it to the glory of God there were neuer either so many or any that so patiently died for any other opinion or opinions whatsoeuer as first and last died for the testimony of our religion For we account all them ours that haue from the beginning died for the glorious cause of the Gospell of Iesus Christ and in that we are able by the Scriptures to proue our religion to be the same we are sure we are not deceiued in our account In the conclusion of this Chapter to
insomuch that I dare bee bolde to say it is as much to the good of this Church and common wealth as if an other such Vniuersity as one of these had beene now founded built and endued as richly as either of these now is And though our Cleargy men now be not able to builde so many Colledges as yours were yet those things that they doe that way though they match not yours in quantity they yet may ouermatch yours quickely in quality For you know in the Gospell the widowes two mites which she threw into the treasury for the poore of the little that shee had wel gotten was in Christs account a greater almes then theirs which threw in farre greater summes of their superfluities Marke 12. And well knowen it is that the richest and greatest of ours are for their places but beggers to them that haue beene of like or the same place amongst you whereof the reason is not onely that they lacke a number of deuises that yours had to encrease their gaine but also that they haue not your Romish consciences which with your Popes dispensation could make them wide enough to swallow vp the commodities not onely of as many benefices but also Bishopricks and other offices ciuill or ecclesiasticall as they could possibly get Whereof it came that of their very superfluities vnlesse they had beene prouder then Lucifer and more wastfull in belly cheare then euer was the rich glutton some thing might well be spared and of a number of them so much as might haue procured the building of many moe then they left behinde them Hospitals and Colledges though you would so insinuate we haue pulled downe none but haue increased the number of them And as for your Abbies other â—loisters of religious houses you had for the inriching and building of them vnder pretence of your requiting of them with your Masses Dirges and trentals deuoured so many widowes houses robbed so many heires and fatherlesse children spoiled so many Parishes of the ordinary maintenance for their ministers and since the liuers in them were growen to such height of sinnes not to be named as that in the iust iudgement of God there could no lesse punishment come vpon them then the vtter defacing and ouerthrowing of them lest if they had beene left easie to haue beene set in their former state againe they should too easily and too quicklie haue beene shoppes and sties for the like filthinesses and abhominations againe And yet here with vs in EnglaÌ„d Cardinall Woolsey by the Popes authority pulled downe the first and to the suppression of the rest many of your bishops and Cleargy vnder king Henry consented and in diuers other places they haue beene also by lawfull and sufficient authority orderly for these causes defaced and doubtles though not turned to so good vses as they might perhaps haue beene if the wrath of God against them for the foresaied causes woulde haue suffered it yet I am fully perswaded to a better vse by farre yea infinite degrees then they were before And therefore these things considered this rather may be counted a good worke in vs thus to haue defaced them and conuerted their vse then a fault whereof wee need repent vs And consequently vaine is your charging of vs with seeking to make amends with giuing a trifle to the poore This is a fault that rather toucheth your kingdome then vs for wee account all almes and other outward good workes whatsoeuer to be vnprofitable to the doer vnlesse they be done with goods gotten with a good conscience which wil ouerthrow most of the glory of the gay works that you most brag of you are they that care not so your Church be inriched if it be with the farming of concubines dispensation for any sin with the rentes yearly for the open stewes that with the which they get by whoring during their liues so you haue it when they die For ther was nothing more coÌ„moÌ„ theÌ„ for your priests to farme coÌ„cubines though they might not be suffred to haue lawful wiues experieÌ„ce hath taught that there was no sin but ther might be marchaÌ„dise made of it in your romish court faire the your Popes a long time haue takeÌ„ rent for the stewes in Rome that yearely a good round summe that they haue bene glad to take the goods of those harlots when they died for their Churches vse it is most notoriouslie knowen And what hath beene more vsuall both in practise and doctrine with you then to teach much satisfaction for sinne and redemption of former faultes to bee performed by almes giuing especially so it were to your Priestes and Clergy men neuer caring so you might come by it of their goods aliue or dead whether euer it was well gotten or no For in trueth this hath beene the policy that hath brought your Clergy to so infinite wealth as they were of and made all other but beggers in comparison of themselues Therefore now let them that haue any iudgement as you wish looke vpon the fruite of your trees whether they bee so good or no as you here make bragges of The XXXV Chapter NOw seeing that you haue visited our garden if a man maie bee so bold I pray lend vs the keies that we may in like maner visite yours that we may see the fruits of your religion Read al the histories writeÌ„ froÌ„ the passion of Christ to our daies you shal find that al those sects that haue left our Roman Church haue done more mischiefe in one yeare a Your Romish Church that now iâ— is as farre gone from the ancient pure Roman Church as euer any heretiques went froÌ„ it and of you especially your saying is tâ—ue being seperated from the saied Church then they did in an huÌ„dred years before But because our meaning is not to recite all the acts of your predecessors enemies to the Catholique Church it shall suffise to make a short discourse of those that haue bene of late daies I meane the Bohemians or Hussites whose followers you doe affirme your selues to be for in your godly booke of Martyrs b This is vntrue as euery one that wil view the â—ct and monumeÌ„ts of the Church writen by master Fox may see you haue placed Iohn Hus as the first Martyr of your ancieÌ„t Church who was burnt for an heretique about an 120. years agone eueÌ„ as we accoÌ„pt c Your religion and Stephens agree â—o wel that if hee were aliue again you would be as ready as euer were the Iewes to stone him whatsoeuer you say of him now he being deade S. StepheÌ„ to be the first Martyr of our Church Now to know whither yeâ—e of the opinioÌ„ of the Hussites or no that I leaue for some other time and for this present I am content to condescende to that that you haue writen I meane that Iohn Hus did preach your Gospell and made a number of such faithfull persons
let these thinges passe and to proceede to the scanning and examining of that which you haue set downe in this Chapter you beginne with an arrogant and false bragge that all ancient doctours Greeke and Latin since the Apostles times and all the ChristiaÌ„s of the foure quarters of the world that were in those daies made their promises and vowes c. as you doe now You are wonderfull generall Master Albine and your words are very confident and swelling shal we thinke that you are a maÌ„ of that learning and reading that you speake all this vpon your owne knowledge why then hauing such a cloud of witnesses such an army royall alleage you so few of them nine or ten be the most whose names you haue brought vs in al this Chapter and these you haue brought forth vpon the stage dumbe or tongue-tied if we wil here them speake we must take the paines to attend vpon them by your direction at an other time and surely in other places then you haue pointed vs we must heare a good sort of these speake for you or else we shal neuer finde them willing to yeelde either you or your cause any one word good or bad As for vowes and promises which you make to God vnlesse thereby you meane onely such vowes and promises as both you and we make in our baptisme to renounce the Diuell and al his works c. for then you haue not so much as named vs one father Greeke or Latin nor yet any one Christian of any of the foure quarters of the world you speake of And indeede you haue amongst you such rash foolish vndiscreete and superstitious vowes and promises a number for the which you could not nor cannot truely alleadge any ancient and holy father or Christian indeede thereinto giue you any countenance Such bee you vow of single and chast life vniuersally amongst you tyed to holy orders your vowes and promises to God some of you alwaies some for a time to absteine with opinion of holines and merit from flesh and whitmeate your vowes of pilgrimage to coÌ„mit idolatry at this Saints shrine picture or at that and a number of like stampe of which kinde of vows promises if you meane I say first your glory in theÌ„ is your shame for these are but plaine wil worships condemned by Christ Mat. 15. and by Paul Coloss 2. the very bronds marks of such as according to S. Pauls prophesie in the later daies should depart froÌ„ the faith giue heede vnto spirits of errour and doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4. And further I say such vowes were better neuer made theÌ„ made being made they are of the nature dangerous consequence that the best way were first to repent of the folly and rashnes in making of them then rather quite to giue them ouer theÌ„ with such superstition and impiety to seeke to keepe them as is vsed breaks forth thereby shamefully amongst you For it is plentifully proued both out of scriptures and out of Ambrose in the second canon of the eighth couÌ„cel of Toledo that oathes that caÌ„not be performed without sinne are vnlawfull not to binde And you cannot be ignorant that Gratian causa 22 quest 4 produceth many testimonies out of the fathers to the same end and the namely out of Isidor there he hath noted set downe this for a good rule in such cases as these of yours be In malis promissis rescinde fidem in turpi voto muta decretuÌ„ quod incautè vouisti ne facias impia est promissio quae scelere adimpletur that is in euill promisses performe theÌ„ not in a filthie vow change thy purpose the which rashly thou hast vowed doe not it is an vngodly promise which is fulfilled with sin And rather then men that haue vowed promised a single life through the force of inward coÌ„cupiscence should burne and fal either to fornicatioÌ„ adultery or any other vncleannes or filthines of the flesh with were as heaueÌ„ earth all the world knowes coÌ„moÌ„ fruits of your priestly vow of single life the ancieÌ„t Doctours that you brag of here so much would haue theÌ„ to marry and to repent of their rash vow as it is euident in Cyril in his third 16. bookes vpon Leuiticus in Cyprian li. 1. Epist 11. in Epiphanius himselfe coÌ„tra apostolicos l. 2. and in August de bono coniugali de sanctâ virginitate cap. 34. But by the vowes and promises that you speake of seeing you cite no fathers for any other I will take it that you meant onelie those that you vse to make to God in Baptisme Now theÌ„ yet therein vnderstand you striue without an aduersary For we in our baptisme doe as solemnly make those vowes and promises to God to renounce the Deuill the world the flesh wtall their fruits to beleeue in God and serue him all the daies of our life as euer any of you did or doe But you say further that al these holy Doctours ChristiaÌ„s you spake of at their baptisme did vse those very ceremonies that you doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings which you doe vse in your Catholique church which we call papisticall for the proofe of the trueth whereof you name vs certaine places out of Tertullian Cyprian Origen Chrysostome Augustine Basil and Arnobius what are these all the ancient doctours and Christians since the Apostles time that you speake of Though it were graunted you that these seuen in these places were for your ceremonies which you vse in baptisme yet this were farre from all that you spake of before Thus to beginne withall euery bodie may see that you are a far mightyer man in bragging theÌ„ you dare so mâ—â—h as to make shew you are in prouing all you say But to passe by this fault herein you haue committed a second fault worse then this first For whereas you alleadge these fathers here to couÌ„tenance your whole pompe of ceremonies now vsed by you in Baptisme there is not you know well enough or else you are not so cuÌ„ning in these places as you would haue men thinke you are the halfe of your ceremonies fashions so much as barely mentioned by them in these places Exorcisme abrenuntiation crossing thrise dipping and anointing are all that I can finde any of these in any of these places to haue mentioned but that they vsed the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and anointings that you now vse as you say I finde not Your Chrisme that you anoint withall must haue as you hold balsom in it and in them I finde onely mention of oyle and none of any balsom your formes of exorcising and adiuring set downe in your seruice bookes are not found in any of these places nay it is well enough knowen they are of younger yeares by a faire deale But what are these few ceremonies the names whereof and vse whereof in some sort they had
be trueths as fully and more fully then he or any of his side For proofe whereof cōsider that whereas the whole preface consists in the copie and edition that I had of his in print to aunswere of twenty two leaues hee spendes the first eight pages in prouing that Kinges Princes and rulers both ciuill and ecclesiasticall must carefullie administer iustice according to their callings and so bee as good shepherdes to them of whome they haue charge which who doubteth of or who euer denyed amongst vs yea we teaching as we do that Emperours Kings and Queenes in their kingdomes are carefully to looke to the keeping of both tables amongst their people and that they are next vnder God the supreme gouernours of their people aswel in causes ecclesiastical in commaunding for the good of the church and religion of Christ as in causes ciuill in commaunding for the common weale and the good estate thereof and they denying ciuil Magistrates any such authority in causes of the church doe not we far more fully then they teach them how and when they may be as good shepheards to their people Then by occasion of this former needlesse discourse hauing alleadged that Iohn 10. to proue that a good shepheard giueth his life for his sheepe and that Christ is that good sheepheard that knowes his sheepe and is knowen of them marke how in as many mo pages he inferreth that it is necessary that the sheepe know their shepheard that they heare his voice and geue no eare to the voice of a stranger and lastly that they follow and obey their shepheard which are things also truly taught and vnderstoode which we most gladly teach embrace and for lacke of which properties of Christes sheepe wee constantly hold aduouch that the Romish flocke these manie yeares hath rather beene a flocke of goates then of Christes true sheepe For if they knowe as they should that the name of the sheepheard Christ were the only name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and that in him all things are prepared already Math. 22. they would not set vp to themselues so many names of persons and thinges besides him nor hold that so many thinges besides those that are already prepared in him are left to thēselues and others to that ende to prepare as they doe And if they did so heare his voice and refuse to heare the voice of strangers as Christes sheepe ought there neither would nor could be so many strange doctrines yea contrary doctrines to the voice of Christ set downe in the Canonical scriptures receaued maintained amongst them as ear I haue done with Albine I shall shew there are Likewise such followers obeiers of the voice of Christ are they haue they beene for these 4. or 500. yeares speaking vnto them in his word writtē by the mouth of his true church aūcient sound pastours thereof as that none euer in a number of most weighty and materiall matters more directly contraried his voice then they Whither I haue iust ground and proofe for my thus saying I referre thee to that which I haue written in confutation of Albines discourse cap. 4.17.29 36. And yet such is the folly of this nameles preface wryter that hauing thus noted these to be the properties of Christs true sheepe as though by and by without any further proofe at all it ought of necessity to bee granted that he and his side had all these properties and that we of our side had neuer a one of them all but were notoriously branded with the contrary markes he triumpheth and insulteth ouer vs spending all the rest of his preface in railing vpon vs and in perswading his reader to forsake vs and to ioyne with him his So that all the rest of his preface is builded vppon a most shamefull and impudent begging of all these points that they know Christ aright heare his voice no other obey him and follow him most orderly and also of these that his begging of that former may seeme the more reasonable that their doctrine is sound hauing countenāce of al auncient holy fathers of the cōsent of al Christiā Regions prescription of time that their prelates are al prelates lawfully called hauing right succession euery thing that they should haue to credit them withal therefore that they are such as Christ hath commaunded to to be obeyed as himselfe and lastly that their church is the holie Catholike church the obedient spouse of Christ and mother of all the faithfull and that therefore it is damnation to depart frō her or to refuse to obey any of her lawes and ordinances that with vs all things are quite contrary All these things his reader must graunt him suppose to be true for he hath nothing at all to proue any one of these besides swelling words of vanity and lofty arrogant bragging that these things are so And therefore al these things being the things in question betwixt vs and such as we all most constantly and iustly haue alwaies denied as our writings of these points heretofore now this answere of mine in sundry places thereof make manifest to any indifferēt reader thereupon it must needes follow that whatsoeuer he hath alleadged either out of scripture or doctor to perswade his reader to obey their church their prelates their ordinances traditions is shamefully abused For compare the times when the persons whereof those things were written their doctrine and doings with these and you shall finde witnes the scriptures thēselues and all sound antiquity as much differēce betwixt their church prelates doctrine and ordinances and them of whom those places are to be truely vnderstoode as there is betwixt light and darkenesse the pure Church of Christ and the impure Synagogue of Antichrist And also all his exhortation vpon these grounds to ioine with them and all his bitter inuectiues against vs for refusing so to doe is as a building in the aire without all foundation And therefore is thus easilye pulde downe and laide vnderfoote as a thing more meete to bee trampled vpon as a thing of nothing then by any to bee at all regarded And yet as foule a fault as this is in him it is common to him with all wryters of his side and most notoriously with this Iohn de Albine before whose booke hee hath set this his preface It may bee seeing his author whom hee ment to publish and of whom he had such an opinion that hee accounted him a notable discourser against heresies to haue such a grace and dexterity in stuffing out his booke almost with nothing else but with this beggerly begging the maine questions alwaies that he thought his preface should not be suteable and fit to be set before such a learned discourse vnlesse it were garnished bewtified with the same popish grace And if this were his reason then which I am sure hee hath no better hee is to bee borne withall for what
extraordinarily as he seeth need thereof is and may be such effectuall seede to beget childrē vnto God and so holesome foode to feede thē yea euen vntil they grow to a full age perfectiō in Christ Iesus that though their teachers cānot shew for the defence of their calling who alwaies successiuely in person and place haue gone before them yet euen this trueth of their doctrine doeth proue them and their people to be Apostolique Churches whereas though they could doe the other without this it were nothing And because my aduersary seemeth in this point otherwise to make great reckoning of the testimony of Irenaeus Tertullian and Augustine I will stande to their iudgement in this whither to succeede the Apostles in doctrine be not sufficient without the other locall and personall demonstrable succession and not this without that Irenaeus in his fourth booke and forty three Chapter teacheth vs onely to obey those Elders in the Church which from the Apostles with the succession of their Bishopricks haue receiued Charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum patris that is the certaine gift of trueth according to the pleasure of the father for as for all other whatsoeuer they pretend for he excepteth nothing he there immediatly sheweth that absistunt a principali successione that is they are gone from the principall succession and therefore must be suspected And Tertullian in the very same place de praescriptionibus haereticorum quoted by Albine after in his 9. Chapter immediatly after the words there cited by him wherein he calleth for personall succession hath added these Cōfingant tale aliquid haeretici c. but let heretiques deuise some such thing for after blasphemy what is not lawfull for them saieth hee but though they doe faine some such thing yet it shall nothing preuaile thē For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine by the diuersity cōtrariety thereof wil pronoūce that it hath neither Apostle nor Apostolique mā to be the authour therof For saith he as the Apostles taught not amōgst themselues contrary things so neither did Apostolique men teach contrary things to those that the Apostles taught After this sort therefore let them be prouoked by those Churches which though they cannot produce either Apostle or Apostolique man to bee the founder thereof in that they were long after planted as dayly there bee tamen in eâdem fide conspirantes non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae yet they agreeing with thē in one faith are no lesse to be reputed Apostolicke Churches then they that were planted by the Apostles What can be plainer then this to shewe that though our Churches could not satisfie his request in pleading the former succession that yet if they can shewe this that they agree with the Apostles in doctrine that they therefore are far rather Apostolicke then they that can produce the former without this And though Augustine in his 165. epistle and also in his fourth Chapter against the Manichees epistle which they call their foundation remembred by Albine cap. 6. doe there seeme to make great reckoning of personall succession yet when he had shewed of what force that and some other reasons were with him he preferres trueth indeede warranted by the scriptures before them all Wherefore what I haue saied concerning the vanitie of their brag of personall and locall succession either to iustifie theirs or to disgrace our Church or ministrie is sufficientlie proued But all this labour will Albine say I might haue spared for he spake not simplie of succession but expressely of right succession of Bishops pastours and to shew what he ment thereby he expresly added the continuance of one Catholicke faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally at anie time Moreouer I confesse that sundry times after so forcible was the trueth in this point with him that in wordes he confesseth that personall and locall succession without continuance in this trueth is not the thing that he vrgeth and yet for all this this that I haue saied of this point is not needlesse For besides that fewe of his opinion will bee brought to confesse thus much this both in others and in himselfe in sundrie Chapters following maie be obserued that when this confession is made by anie of thē it is wroong frō them much against their wils for their shew of proofes run wholy for the magnifying of personall successiō to be the marke whereby true Churches and the ministers thereof maie vndoubtedly be discerned Againe if in this he spake as hee thinkes why doeth he make so much adoe about the personall and visible succession of Bishops and pastours and neuer ioines this issue with vs to trie out soundly and throughly whither they or we haue this Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth For herein onely lieth all the controuersie betwixt them and vs and this determined the question betwixt vs were quite ended let them once therefore but proue indeed that they are in possession of this soūd trueth and that alwaies downe from the Apostles they haue continued therein if we ioyne not streight with them and repent vs hartely of our departure from them accursed be we Yea if we cannot proue by cōparing their doctrine with that which wee are most sure the Apostles taught to be both diuerse from that and contrary vnto it vnderstanding by their doctrine as wee doe that which is proper to them and wherein we are against them let vs for euer leese our credit and cause Now for the decyding and determining of this great maine cōtrouersie wee appeale to the canonical scriptures which we knowe are most fit and sufficiēt iudges herein whereunto vnles they will deserue the name of lucifugae that is of shunners of the light which for the like cause Tertullian gaue the heretiques of his time de resurrect carnis they will be contented to bring their doctrine as to the touchstone Indeede in Tertullian and Iraeneus time the heretiques as it appeares in their workes for the triall of their opinions fled from this touchstone and when they were vrged herewith they behaued themselues the likest these our aduersaries that euer I saw For Iraeneus in his third booke and second Chapter testifieth thus of them cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionem that is when they are reproued by the scriptures then they are turned streight into an accusation of them as though they were not right nor were of authority both because they are so set downe as that variably or diuersly they may be taken and because by them the trueth cannot be found out by those that are ignoraunt of tradition This notwithstanding it appeareth both there and elsewhere that he calleth them to this triall
of those words Except yee eat the flesh of the son of mā c. killeth therefore he teacheth vs there spiritually to vnderstand them Who vpon these wordes of Christ gathereth that no wicked man can eate the flesh of christ vpon Mat. c. 15. as for the other part he granteth the wicked may eat that when it hath beene eatē in the end it is auoided into the place of easement Hom 15. vpon Mat. Athanasius noteth the christ made mention of his ascension Iohn 6. to wtdraw thē from corporall fleshly vnderstāding of his words vpon these words whosoeuer speaketh a word against the son c. But Chrys goeth plainly to work saith in his 11. Hom vpon Mat. that the very body of christ himselfe is not in the holy vessels but the mistery sacrament thereof is therin conteined And therefore in his 46. Hom. vpon Iohn sheweth vs the christ saying the flesh profiteth nothing Iohn 6. therby warned vs to take heede of carnall and fleshly vnderstanding of his words which is to vnderstand them saieth he simply and in his 4. Homil vpon the 4. to the Corinth he telleth vs that the body of Christ is the carion where the Eagles will bee he nameth eagles saieth he to shew that who so will approch to his body must mount aloft haue no dealing with the earth nor be drawē downward but must euermore fly vp c. For this is a table of Eagles saieth he that fly on high not of Iaies that creepe beneath Christ tooke bread which cōforteth mās hart that he might represēt therby his body bloud saith Hier. vpō the 26. of Mat. As thou hast in baptism receued the similitude of death so likewise dost thou in this sacramēt drīk the similitude of christs bloud saieth Ambrose in his 4 booke 4 c. of the sacraments Ciprian de vnctione chrismatis writeth thus Christ in his last supper gaue vnto his Apostles bread wine which he called his body bloud but on the Crosse hee gaue his very body to be wounded with the hands of the souldiers that the Apostles might declare vnto the world how in what maner the bread may be the flesh bloud of Christ And the maner straight way he declareth thus that those things which do signifie those things which be signified by thē may be both called by one name Fulgētius in his booke to King Thrasimund hath these words This cup or chalice is the new Testamēt that is to say doth signifie the new Testament Theodoret in his first Dialogue most plainely writeth that Christ honoured the signes and representatiōs which are seene with the name of his body and bloud not changing their natures but adding grace to nature and yet more plainely in the 2. Dialogue he writeth thus the mystical signes after sanctification go not from their nature for they tary in their former substance figure and forme Yea euen Gelasius a Pope about the yeare 500. against Eutiches is as plaine saying in the Eucharist the substāce and nature of bread and wine cease not For the image and similitude of the body and bloud is celebrated in those mysteries And Bertram in his treatise of this matter writen in the time of Carolus Caluus laboureth by many proofes testimonies to shew that bread and wine remaine still and that we are here to followe Christ in a figure and mistery And Bede vpon Luke 22. saith because bread doeth comfort mans heart and wine doeth make good bloud in his body therefore the bread is mystically compared to Christs body and the wine to Christs bloud The like saying hath Haymo in his 5. booke De sermonum proprietate Emissenus de consecrat Dist 2. cap. Quia corpus compareth the conuersion in the Sacrament to the conuersion in a man regenerated which we all know is in quality and not in substance There are two Epistles yet extant in the Saxon tongue made by one Alfricke in King Etheldreds time about the yeare of the Lord 996 being then as some write Bishop of Canterbury wherein he teacheth the bread and wine to be no otherwise the body and bloud of Christ then manna and the water of the rocke was Christ who also translated 80 sermons out of latin into the Saxon tongue whereof 24. were appointed to be read for homilies and in that which was to be read on Easter day there is much direct matter against Transubstantiation and your reall presence And since these times you know well inough wee haue had many from time to time yea mo thē you well like of that haue beene as flat and direct against your kinde of reall presence as we are now This Master Foxes booke of Actes and Monuments hath made euident to all the world And it is famously knowen that before your Lateran Councel vnder Innocent the 3. in the yeare 1215. it was not decreed to bee as you now hold It appeareth also by the last session of the councell of Florence which is not much aboue 140. yeares ago that the Greeke Church vntill then stoode against your doctrine of transubstantiation which is the ground of your reall presence And Tonstall though otherwise a great man on your side yet in his booke of this sacrament saieth perhaps it had beene better to leaue euery man that would be curious concerning this matter of the maner how Christ is present to his owne coniecture as by his confession before the councel of Lateran it was left at libertie And Iohn Duns a frend of yours vpon the 4. booke of the sentences saieth that the wordes might haue beene expounded more plainely then by Transubstantiation if it had pleased the Church Gabriel Biell another great doctour vpon the canon of the masse in his 40. reading plainely confesseth that it is not expressed in the canon of the Bible how the body of Christ is there whither by Trāsubstantiatiō or Consubstantiation Euen so your great Bishop Iohn Fisher writing against Luthers booke of the captiuity of Babylō is enforced to confesse that he findeth not in Mathew nor any where els in the scripture any thing to proue that there is thereby the reall presence of Christ in your masse nor that whensoeuer a Priest shall go about that matter hee maketh the bread wine the body and bloud of Christ and so concludeth that he thinketh that euery man vnderstandeth that the certaintie of that matter dependeth not so much of the Gospell as it doeth vpon the vse tradition and custome of the Church These testimonies forasmuch as directly they are against your literall exposition of Christs words your new deuise of transubstantiation the onely piller and buttresse of your real presence and against your grosse and carnal eating of him with the bodily mouthes of all receiuers good and bad they may not bee denied to bee forcible against your reall presence For the cause thereof denied and taken away the effect must cease and if the
ministers of our Church and Religion and no maruell that they that are not light headed send vs to preach in new found landes c. This in effect you haue often saied and if that will serue you will not sticke with vs to say it in euerie Chapter But this being indeede the question whereupon the determinatioÌ„ of the whole controuersie betwixt you and vs dependeth namely whither our Religion bee not the true ancient Religion taught by Christ and his Apostles for you to passe it ouer thus with bare words and neuer to go about soundly to proue that it is not is but too too childish and ridiculous Well may you in your owne conceite and in the opinion of the simple silly reader seeme herein to haue done a great act but in the iudgement of any of meane witte capacity howsoeuer you may bee counted a wordy man yet you shall neuer be accounted a worthie champion to fight in this greatest question onely with bare wordes The XV. Chapter YOV will saie to me that this argument ought to take place in an ordinarie commission but a Though in such times estates of the Church wherein Luther and some others liued there were iust occasion why God should stirre vp men extraordinarily to serue him yet you know well enough that both he and others whose calling you most cal in question were not without an ordinary outwarde calling of men yours is extraordinary as that was of the Prophets of the olde Testament whom God did sende to correct the Scribes and Pharises and that euen so God hath inspired you and others of your sect to the like effect that is to say to correct the superstitious liues and doctrine of the Papists Idolaters and by this as farre as I can see ye are coÌ„missaries of God in his behalfe yee maie saie wel with S. Paul although yee haue not bene rauished vnto the third heauen * Gal. 1. that ye are not sent by man or of man but by the authoritie of our Sauiour Christ But what would you saie if we should speake against it as a number doe and that to reuenge this quarell we should write against your commission we might well aide our selues with a Sillogisme of our Sauiour Christ if we would come to pleade the matter which is this c* This argument the contrariety betwixt your religioÌ„ Christs being as it is proues neither your Church nor Priests to be of God He that is of God doeth obey *b Joh. 6. b Iohn the eight you would haue saied the word of God but you doe not obey the word of God therefore yee are not of God I knowe that you will denie the Minor and therefore it doeth appertaine to vs to proue it Christ doeth saie * Mat. 22. a In this particuler respect witnes your Popes vsurping ouer Christian Princes none were euer more â—uilâ—y in denying to Cesar that which is Cesars then you Giue vnto Cesar that that appertaineth to Cesar and to God that that appertaineth to God That is to saie to speake familierlie giue Geneua vnto his Lord and the Bishopricke vnto his Bishop Now you doe not obeie this commandement therefore as one that doeth not appertaine vnto God you haue prouided your selfe a new master And because we would not haue some to thinke that we that are not of the cuntrie doe beare false witnes against you or that we doe it without hauing anie interest vnto the matter b Nay the euidence of the matter sheweth that your owne sauage dealings contrary to the publicke edicts of that cuntrey hath caused the stâ—rs there and now of late you haue reuiued them by open treason and rebellion I am sure that all the world doeth know that yee haue set all France in as ill an estate as ye haue done the Dukedome of Sauoy In that that appertaineth to the Church is there anie Bishoprick or Dioces left where ye haue not sought with al your power to preach your holie doctrine where haue ye forgotten that that Saint Paul doth saie which is * Rom. 10. how shal they preach if they are not sent What right haue you to come to reape other mens corne Doe not you remember that that Tertullian doeth write against your elders that did persecute the catholique Church against whom he saieth in his c This TertulliaÌ„ would surely haue saied of you â— he had liued in these daies booke de praescriptione haereticorum What are yee and from whence doe yee come By what right O Marcian doest thou cut downe my woode Why doest thou O Appelles remoue my landes And a little after he sayeth the place is mine I haue beene thus long time in possession and before thee I haue good title and euidence to maintaine my right of those to whom it did appertaine which left it me by inheritaÌ„ce from the Apostles c. Our church of France which is one of the principal members of all the Catholique Church might with good cause saie vnto you the like And I praie what would you answere You cannot denie but that d If this were true as it is false that your religioÌ„ were a thousand yeares olde yet being no elder it is too young by fiue hundreth yeares at the least to be the true religion aboue a thousand yeares before ye were borne that the faith in which yee were baptized and the which you haue falselie denied was planted I doe not saie in this onelie kingdome of France but ouer all Christendome If you pretende any right to the contrarie shew the reason of your possession by the euidence of the e This we can haue often done already ancient doctours and after come to demande it as I haue saied before I meane that you should yeelde the ecclesiasticall gouernment which you haue vsurped in manie places with too great libertie of conscience and licence to doe euill which is the verie death of the soule f S. Augustines words are these quae est pejor mors anima quam libertas erroâ—is as Saint Austine doeth saie Epist 166. And after that yee haue restored France to his olde estate then there will be more apparence of the matter that ye are sent to preach the true word of God then there is now But is this estate that yee are although that God had giuen you commission the which he neuer thought he would haue called it backe because of your noble actes Theodosius and g Areadius I think you ment Arcades which in olde time were Emperours of Rome L. si quis in tantam cod vnde vi did establish or make al Edict that if the true owner or lord of a thing should vse anie force or to seeke by the waie of violence without staying for the senteÌ„ce of the Iudge h Euen thus you and your predecessours got possession of your places therefore by this law you haue but right
our ReligioÌ„ to be the true ancient Catholicke faith taught by the Apostles and euer since continued in Christes true Church namely first for that by the Canonicall scriptures we can proue it to be the same that they preached seeing it caÌ„not be denied but their preaching and writing agreed and secondly because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient groundes of the Catechisme the ten coÌ„mandemeÌ„ts the articles of the faith the Lords praier c. And for these causes indeede we most confidently say and aduouch that you doe vs extreame wrong the trueth soundnes of these two reasons notwithstanding either to call our Church or ReligioÌ„ new or thus to call for miracles to confirme it now as though it had neuer beene confirmed thereby before But in all this with you we say nothing to the purpose yet with the indifferent Reader I hope it is to good and great purpose seeing hereby we labour to proue that our church and Religion is not new and but of 40. yeares continuance as here most vntruly you charge it but olde ancient because it agreeth in euery point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechisme All you say to confute this argument of ours is that we haue learned our Catechisme of you otherwise we should not or could not haue come by it Whereunto I answere that if wee had had no better Catechisers then you we had yet beene but badly Catechised and this further you may be sure of your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so crackt with vs if we had not found these parts of the Catechisme either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed and grounded in the Canonicall scriptures vpon your credit we had not receiued them besides as I haue plentifully shewed in the 4. Chapter we haue had in all ages from Christ downe to our owne very manie of our owne Religion that haue continued and from hand to hand deliuered vnto vs these partes of the Catechisme more soundly and faithfully then you haue done so that if you had neuer beene we should farre better and sooner haue learned these things But in the most wise prouidence of God these were in some sort also continued amongst you that so you might be the more without excuse in that notwithstanding the light that migh haue shined vnto you thereby you yet chused rather to walke in grosse and palpable darknesse then in the light thereof And therefore sathan the Prince of darknesse in your Synagogues through the helpe of his vicar generall your Pope and his Chaplaines neuer ceased vntill by one blinde and hellish perswasion or other whatsoeuer Paul had taught to the contrarie 1 Corint 14. he brought to passe not onely that all your Lyturgie and seruice should bee in Latin and rather lying legends permitted to be read in the Churches publickly in the mother tongue then the Scriptures of God but also that these portions of the Catechisme should either not bee learned at all or else onely in the Latin and vnknowen tongue which he knew was all one in effect Otherwise then thus by your good wils how little soeuer we had vnderstoode the latin tongue wee should not nor could not bee suffered to learne them and therefore this learning being altogether wtout edification neither is there any cause why you should brag that we haue learned our Catechismes of you nor why we should accouÌ„t our selues any thing in your debte for the same Further to make it yet more appeare how little beholden we are to you for teaching vs the Catechisme let vs but a little consider euen your most diligent Catechising of men in these three partes thereof here named by you the ten commandements the creede and the Lordes prayer First concerning the ten commandements in steede of one God which there we are commanded to haue you in teaching vs to worshippe Saints Angels your breaden God and your Pope as you doe haue taught vs to worship so many more Gods then one and secondly that your images and idols might staÌ„d to the enritching of your cleargy with the idolatrous offrings vnto theÌ„ it was and is a common trick with you in setting down the commandements in your Catechismes and elsewhere to leaue the second commandement quite out which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them and yet least you should of euery one be spied in finding them but 9. you deuide the tenth into two And as for the other 2. coÌ„mandements of the first table by your ordinary most coÌ„mon practise the people were taught whatsoeuer is there to the coÌ„trary that it very well becommeth them of your schoole vsually to sweare by a number of things that are no Gods and to season all their common talke with oathes of all sortes and to turne the day which should bee kept holy to the Lorde to a daie of the greatest vanitie and impiety of al the daies of the weeke And to proceede to the second table neuer did the Iewes more make the 5. commandement of none effect for loue of their Corban then you haue done to maintaine your infinit orders of monks friers nuns in all contempt and neglect of duety to their pareÌ„ts if once you could entise them into those cloisters How pretious soeuer bloud be yet so small a matter hath it bene with you that your Synagogue is drunke with the bloud of Gods saints and euery varlet is not only easily dispensed withall with you but also often much commended if hee can though neuer so traiterously embrue his haÌ„ds for the furtherance of your kingdome in the bloud of subiect or Prince brother or of whoÌ„ soeuer else And as for adulterie or fornication yea for sinnes against nature not to be named your great Catechisers neuer haue seemed to make reckoning of in that notwithstanding they know that these haue followed in such infinite measure vpon their inforced single life in euerie corner that the stench thereof hath long ago reached vp vnto heauen to pul downe Gods fearce vengeance against you yet rather then they would let go this tricke of hypocrisie they are contented that this â—ench increase stil Your infinite and open sacriledges in building founding your cloisters and Prelacies in spâ—â—â—ing the seuerall parishes of their ordinarie maintenance for their ministers other your innumerable vnsatiable pillings polings of Gods Church your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you couÌ„t heretiques and your ordinary doctrine that bare concupiscence â—s no sinne shew what Catechisers you are for the rest And whereas in the creede we be taught indeede to beleeue onely in the Trinitie in that you vsually teach vs to trust yea in the matter of saluation to a number of things besides and to praie vnto saints and Angels it being plainly taught vs in the word that beside God there is not sauiour Esa 43. and that Christs name is the onely name of
must needes be graunted you that your church is aswell the church of Christ as that that was in their times you make our fault and theirs one because we contrary yours which is the church falsely so named whereas they in theirs coÌ„traried the churches doctrine truely so tearmed You must proue therefore your Church now and that which was 1000. yeares ago at least to be al one in doctrine which you can neuer doe before you can proue their fault and ours to be all one Howsoeuer this vse yet you will make of the variety of opinions and the alleadging of the Scriptures by these heretiques that you wil not remooue from your Religion or faith which falsely you call ancient for all the shrill noise of our Gospell Whereunto this onely I reply that if now the diuersity betwixt their dealing and ours herein shewed you as it is you that notwithstanding persist in this minde vpon this ground you therein shall shew your selues to bee ledde rather by will then witte or any sound wisedome But at last you giue ouer wandring any longer so farre abroad for examples to this purpose and you will talke you say but of the sectes and heads of heresies of this present time who all likewise alleadge scripture and condemne one another And therefore hauing reckoned vp Lutherans Anabaptistes Puritanes Protestantes Precisians Zwinglians Caluinistes Caelestes Deistes Triniâ—â—ries you would knowe of vs which of these you should receiue And to make your question the harder to answere you adde saying If we receiue some and not all they that are refused will thinke they haue wrong offered theÌ„ For they haue as good store of scripture well alleadged as the rest and if all should for this cause be receiued then thereupon would followe a Babylonicall confusion This obiection taken froÌ„ the variety of sects and opinions in these daies I haue so answered in answering to your fourth chapter that thereby I haue made it most cleare that though you had as great ground for it as you pretend yet all that variety neither can nor ought to preiudice any thing our Religion And therefore vnto that answere of mine hereunto I must referre the reader both now and hereafter whensoeuer it commeth for his satisfaction yet this here I would haue him further to note that to make the number seeme the greater you haue here reckoned vp them as different Sectes heades of heresies amongst whom either there is full agreement as betwixt them whom you call Caluinists and Zwinglians or but such difference as notwithstanding they agree in the substantiallest and fundamentall points of Religion as the Lutherans Caluinists the Protestants they whom you tearme Puritanes Which differences if they be sufficient with you to make different Sects seuerall heades of heresies then as many seuerall orders as there be amongst you of your religious men and women and as many seuerall sortes of schoolemen as you haue differing amongst themselues in questions of diuinitie so manie seuerall Sectes there are amongst you all which would rise to a marueilous long beadrole And indeede he that considereth well these thinges though hee shall finde you like Sampsons foxes tied togither by the tailes with the thong of the Popes supremacie yet otherwise hee shall and may most easily finde that you are farre more iustly to bee charged to nourish within your Synagogue of Rome multitudes of sects and heades of heresies then we both for that you exceede infinitly in number and matters and for that whereas some of ours to our griefe vnwillingly are tearmed by our enimies Lutherans Caluinists Zwinglians c. you delight and take pleasure in your distinct titles of diuision as to bee called Dominicans FraÌ„ciscans Iesuites c. Secondly there are some of these which you here name as Caelestes Deistes Trinitaries and the Sect of the family of loue wherewith elswhere some of you charge vs who are far liker you then vs and haue rather sprung vp amongst you and of you theÌ„ of vs. And this is certaine that all these our men haue beene more painefull to detect and confute them then euer were yours Our answere therefore to your demande hereupon builded is this though all these alleadge scripture yet neither alleadge they it aswell as we neither is there any remedy but that you must and ought to receaue them for the true meÌ„bers of the Catholique church howsoeuer others alleadge them that alleadge them best soundliest But then you will say you are as farre of as you were in the beginning seeing euery one will staÌ„d vpon this that he and his side alleadge them best and therefore once againe you will reply say that to determine who doeth best alleadge them is a thing so harde that fewe shall be able to finde it out and therefore in the ende you shall be driuen to thinke it necessary that the Pope should be iudge in this case otherwise men shall neuer be at a certainty whom to follow Hereunto I answere that the harder the matter is the more paines men ought to take thereabout seeing to know and finde the trueth standeth them so much vpon secondly I say with S. Paul that when you and all the world haue done what you can there must be heresies amongst meÌ„ that they which are approued amongst theÌ„ may be knowen 1. Cor. 11. Thirdly how hard soeuer it seeme yet by searching of the scriptures examining the allegations interpretatioÌ„s of them by the rules of right interpreting which I before set downe in humility of spirit God will leade theÌ„ that be his how simple soeuer at one time or other by the direction of his spirit to finde out who they be that soundliest haÌ„dle them For he hath promised If we seeke we shall finde and if we knocke it shal be opened vnto vs. Mat. 7.7 And as for the iudgement of the Pope or any one certaine maÌ„ or coÌ„pany of meÌ„ because the Lord in his wisedome foresawe what was in maÌ„ so how prone to erre in this case he hath not appointed vs any such to run vnto for the determining of this matter And therfore it is intollerable presumption for any such to take vpon theÌ„ that the Lord hath made theÌ„ such iudges in this case that they cannot erre The ministry of men conference with men reading of meÌ„s labours vpon matters of Religion such other good helps with an earnest and huÌ„ble inuocation of the name of God for the directioÌ„ of his spirit are to be vsed carefully of euery man as he may in this case But wheÌ„ all commeth to all we see no other but that it is the will pleasure of our God rather to leaue vs thus to be exercised in scearching the scriptures in trauelling by these meanes to finde out the truth to settle our selues therein theÌ„ to send vs for full resolutioÌ„ to any one man or meÌ„ least so we should after be deceiued through the errour
shew your selfe to bee not onely one that dare write any thing how grosse a lie soeuer it be but as malitious in your iudgement as euer was any First you set downe not onely that the Anabaptists condemne thē that die in Luther Caluins religion to hell which is likely inough because they were franticke heretiques haue denied the foundation but also the Lutherans and Caluinists will doe giue that iudgement one of another and yet I am sure you are not able truely to say that euer any of Caluins iudgement saied or wrote so Secondly though your owne iudgement be short yet so it is set downe that you shew that you beleeue that all the three sorts go thither And such care compassion your catholique heart had of it whē you had done that you iest at it accounting your selues fooles if you should stay their passage thither For if we were al gone for company you thinke you should be at quiet you say hel would be so full that the deuil would long for no more companie Is this your popish diuinity to make sport at the damnation of men And hold you this for a principle that it is folly to stay men from running togither to hel Indeed it may be For I haue read that it is a rule amongst you that if your Pope lead headlong with him multitudes by heapes to hell yet no man may be so hardie as to say vnto him why doest thou so Distinct 40. Cap. Si Papa But howsoeuer you account this diuinity certaine I am you wil finde it that in no two things more the deuils shew themselues deuils then in these In laughing and reioicing in the damnation of the soules of men and in letting them go freely for company to hell without stoppage as many as will Truely truely God must take from you this profane and deuilish spirit of yours and giue you grace to repent of it or els you may be sure how many soeuer die and go to hel before you hell wil long for you and you shal finde place and roome inough there I warrant you The XXXII Chapter THere is a certaine minister of the Lutherans called a What will not a passionate aduersary say to disgrace them that he writes against If like testimonies of men of your Religion writing yet in some points one against another wil be admitted it is an easy matter thus to discredit your whole faction Heshusius the which within these three yeares hath made a booke against Caluin Peter Boquin Theodore de Beza Gulielmus Elcimalcius he saieth amongst other things that Carolstadius Zuenfeldius Caluin Beza doe shew well the vncertainty of their faith by the diuersities of opinions that there is amongst thē the which fault saieth he doeth proceede of this that they haue forsaken the true sence of the scripture to follow the opinions of their owne heades b And yet in truth lyeth therein himselfe And in that very booke the saied authour doeth giue the lie to Caluin because that in that hee wrote against the aboue named Westphal hee saieth that Martin Luther and his adherents did acknowledge him as their brother the which thing he maintaines to be false c Greater more disagreement◠there are amōgst you papists and therefore these conclusions presse you rather then vs. Thus seeing yee agree togither like dogs and cattes that all these sects haue confirmed their false doctrine with the shedding of their owne bloud it is best to conclude as we haue saied before that it is not the paine nor the tormēt that doeth make the righteous martyr except we should saie that diuerse contrary messengers are sent from one master the which is notoriously false for that good king frō whom the trueth doeth come indeede hath so good a memory that he doeth neuer send contrary messengers but rather his faithfull seruāts doe all with one voice and one accord honour him as the father of our sauiour Iesus Christ The XXXII Chapter HEre againe as in the former Chapter you labour to discredit Caluin Beza and others onely with the testimony of Heshusius an vtter enemy of theirs about the quarrel of the cōtrouersie of the Sacrament whom heat of contention and a desire therefore to disgrace his aduersaries rather then iust cause led thus to write For what reason had he there to ioyne Zuenfeldius with Caluin and Beza with whom they helde no more communion and fellowshippe then hee himselfe and Corolstadius who was a doctour in Wittenberge in Luthers time and an associate to him in disputatiō against Ecchius he might with more reason haue ioyned with Luther himselfe and his partners then with these And howsoeuer the intemperate heate of contention emboldened Heshusius to giue Caluin the lie most certaine yet it is that Melancthon a great frende of Luthers whom Heshusius cannot deny was an adherent of Luther accounted of Caluin as of a good brother For in an Epistle which he wrote to him he calleth him Charissim◠fratrem most deare brother it is the 187. Epistle in the booke of Caluins Epistles And I am perswaded that what Caluin wrote he was able to iustify in this behalfe how rudely soeuer angry Heshusius gaue him the lie This obiection of our disagreement hath beene oft enough vrged and answered alreadie It seemeth that you haue great penurie of arguments against vs when this must come in thus often especially seeing as I haue shewed greater contentions haue beene amongst your selues In which cases would you haue thought a mā should haue dealt wel with you if the bitter speeches of the one side had alwaies beene taken as sufficient argumentes to disgrace the other Or would you haue liked that thereupon a man should inferre as you doe that you agreed no better then dogges and cattes and that therefore you so differing amongst your selues came not both from one master God who vseth not to sende contrary messengers this had beene an harde conclusion against a number of you in the time of your schismes betwixt your Popes and Antipopes and in the times of the contentiōs of your Friers with your other Prelates and also amongst themselues whereof I haue put you in remembrance before Chapter twenty eight And yet if you will needes meate this measure vnto vs vpon occasion of this one controuersie about the maner of Christs reall presence you must bee contented that vpon moe and greater contentions amongst you wee sende you home as good measure againe As for your conclusion that it is not the paine but the cause that maketh a true martyr wee graunted it you at the first but where to make way to bring it in here againe you insinuate not onely that the Donatists Adamites Seruetus and the Anabaptistes of whom you haue spoken in your former Chapter haue died to confirme their false Religion which we graunt you but that these also that you spake of last Lutherans and Zuenfeldians haue
done so likewise therein your fault is double For first in so saying you tearme the Religion for the which they whom you call Caluinists and Lutherans died false which you shall neuer be able to proue so to be and secondly in so saying you would seeme to make your Reader beleeue that amongst those whom you call Lutherans some haue died euen for the confirmation of their singular opinion wherein they differ from their brethren whom you call Caluinists and that so some haue died for the confirmation of Zuenfeldius vanities which is more also then you can proue I am fully perswaded The XXXIII Chapter SOme of your godly sect to a If you had meant to deale plainely you should haue named the man the place where any of vs do thus childishly reasoÌ„ verifie that the vocation of your ministrie doeth come of God doe set before our eies the holines of those new Christians that is to saie how they neuer sweare but yea for yea and no for no that they doe no wrong to no man that they doe neither robbe nor steale but that they are content with that that God hath sent them that they are very charitable to the poore then seeing that our sauiour doeth saie that one shall know the tree by the fruit b â—ndeede we may truely say howsoeuer some that professe our religion either through the coÌ„mon frailty of man or hypocrisie haue too too little of this fruit growing of theÌ„ that yet if they should follow the rules of our religion they should bear this sweet pleasant fruit abundaÌ„tly we ought to confesse saie they that the tree being good the fruit is good that is to saie their Religion is good seeing that by the grace of God it doeth produce such sweet pleasant fruite I answere you first to this that our sauiour doeth not euer giue generall rules but that that most commonly doeth happen as when he saieth that * Luc 6. of the abundance of the hart the mouth speaketh would you affirme by this that his meaning was vniuersally God forbid that he that is the authour of all trueth should meane so starke a lie Doe you not remember what speech he did vse to the Pharisees wheÌ„ he saied * Mat. 15. this people doe honour me with their mouthes but their hearts are farre from me you see that this sentence is contrary to the other if you doe not vnderstand it as I haue saied that is to saie that manie times a man doeth vtter that that is in his heart as a ruffian takes great pleasure to talke of quarels a proude person to talke of hautie enterprises a couetous man to talke of riches or gaines and so it is of all other sinnes But with all this a man may not affirme truely that hypocrisie doeth neuer raigne in their hearts whose mouthes are full of Gods word * Dan. 19. The Iudges of S. Susan had not they God and his lawes in their mouthes and the Deuill in their hearts * John 18. We haue a lawe saied the Iewes and Pharisees against Christ and according to this lawe giuen vs by Moses he ought to die The zeale of iustice did sound in their mouthes and hatefull enuie did dwell in their heartes And therefore you see manie times that man doeth speake contrarie to that that hee thinketh and euen so it is of the sentence of our Sauiour when he saieth that by the fruite one shall knowe the tree For manie times naturally the fruit is good although the tree be worth nothing c The heatheÌ„ Philosophers liues howsoeuer they caried a shew of the matter of holines they caÌ„not be said to be holy good indeed because their workes were without faith lacked the form of good workes as the famous liues and workes of diuerse heathen Philosophers doe witnesse of whom the holines and scrupulosity of conscience was such that I doe beleeue assuredly that at the daie of iudgement a great number of Christians which leade Painims liues will be confouÌ„ded with the example of those men that knew not God Thus of the first the fruite is good but the trees are worth nothing for their Religion was false Idolatrous applying as S. * Rom. 1. Paul doeth saie the truth of God to vnrighteousnes And as for the second the trees are good being grafted vpoÌ„ the true Catholique Religion but the fruites doe degenerate from the stocke The XXXIII Chapter IN this Chapter you saie that some of vs haue gone about to iustifie that our vocation is of God by the holines of life found amongst vs because Christ hath saied The tree is knowen by his fruit and the good tree bringeth forth good fruite Mat. 7.17 Howsoeuer thus you would perswade your reader that wee are driuen to vse these kinde of arguments taken from the shew of patience in our Martyrs and the goodnes of the liues of the professors of our religion the trueth is though sometime the goodnes of their cause considered we take comfort in their patience and the reformation that our religion hath wrought in many remembred in some sort we reioice therof also yet neuer did we build the credit of our vocation or religion vpon either of these For we know there may be hath bene great shew of patieÌ„ce in such as haue died for heresie and that religion is not to be iudged either by the badnes or shew of goodnes in the liues of them that professe it For both amongst the professours of sound Religion we know there hath alwaies beene are and will be some lewd liuers and also amongst those of a false Religion thorow the force of hypocrisy and superstition there hath beene found and may be still a marueilous great outward shew of holines and piety And therefore doe we alwaies teach our hearers readers to learne to discerne the true Religion from the false by searching the Scriptures and not by viewe of these thinges which therein may deceiue them Wherefore you might very well haue eased both your reader your selfe of all the paines you haue taken about this matter in these foure next Chapters Howbeit seing you could aforde so much needeles paines to disgrace what you could the profession of the trueth I will bee contented to take so much paines as to weigh what you haue saied and giue you such answere as you deserue for the maintenance of the credit thereof In this Chapter first you would proue by conference of this foresaied rule of Christ with this saying Luke 6. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh that it is no more generall theÌ„ that For after out of Math. 15. and other places you haue shewed that notwithstanding that saying of Christ man oftentimes speaketh otherwise then it is in his heart you conclude euen so is it many times naturally the fruite is good when the tree is naught as in the good liues of many heathen
philosophers and contrarily the trees may bee good as grafte vpon the true Catholique Religion and yet the fruites degenerate from the stocke Be it graunted that Christs meaning was no more generally to be taken in the one then in the other and that it followeth thereupon that euen as sometime a man through hypocrisie may speake well and thinke ill so a good tree may sometimes by some occasion haue some fruite not answering the goodnesse thereof intermingled with the good yet you shall neuer be able to proue but that Christes speech here is so generallie true as that alwaies a good tree bringeth forth good fruite and a bad tree bad fruite as alwaies it is true that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh at one time or other though at sometimes also and in some thinges the mouth be bridled For Christ doeth not deny but that euen of a good tree there may bee founde here and there a rotten apple a worme-eaten one or otherwise not answerable to the naturall fruite of that tree For hee knewe what imperfections there were and would bee alwaies founde in the best men neither doeth hee that saied Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh saie it would alwaies be so For he knewe how through hypocrisie oftentimes the abundance of filthie matter lying in the heart would bee dissembled It is sufficient for the verifying of these two Prouerbes generallie in that sence that Christ meant them that the good tree naturally bringeth forth good fruit and the bad bad fruit and that the abundance of the heart will make the mouth at sometimes bewray that which lieth in the heart let otherwise hypocrisie doe what it can And therefore you conclude more then your premises will beare For though it bee graunted you that the one prouerbe hath some limitations as well as the other yet it must bee onelie in maner as I haue saied Whereupon will neuer more followe that an ill tree may haue sometimes naturallie good fruite growing vpon it and a good tree bad fruite then it will euer be found false that at one time or other out of the abundance of the heart euerie mouth will speake And the examples you haue set downe are both vnfitte For neither were the workes of the heathen philosophers what shewe soeuer they had outwardly of goodnes good workes indeede nor euer will it be graunted you of any that can distinguish betwixt good and euill that a Catholique in your sence with doubtles with you is one of the Popish Religion that now is is a good tree The reason of the one is because howsoeuer the works of those philosophers had in them the matter of good workes in the cōformity they had to the outward actions commanded by the law yet they lacked the forme of good workes in that they neither proceeded from a right fountaine were done to a right ende nor in right maner and you know that forma dat esse rei the forme is that that causeth the thing to bee this or that and that it is writen whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne Romans 14 and it is impossible to please God without faith Heb. 11. which faith they were without The reasō of the other is that your religiō being naught Antichristian it selfe cannot make any man or woman a good tree but bad like it selfe for qualis causa talis effectus such as the cause is the effect will be Wherefore for any thing you haue saied as yet euery good tree will so bring forth good fruit and euerie bad tree bad fruit as that by their fruit they maie bee discerned And indeed cauill you to the contrary as much as you list this is most certaine all the difficultie is in knowing the good and bad fruit that Christ meant of and how alwaies to discerne the one from the other In my iudgement and I thinke likewise in the iudgement of euerie one that well weigheth Christes words and the circumstances thereof by the good fruit wee are to vnderstand pure religion ioined with an holie life by the bad fruit a bad religion and like life the good tree that beareth the former are onely the children of God whom he hath regenerated and iustified indeede in Christ Iesus the bad tree that beareth the later are those that remaine in their sinnes and vnder the burdē thereof not yet hauing had their eies truely opened to see the trueth nor their hearts effectually touched and taught to beleeue aright in Christ And these trees are to be discerned by sound triall and examination which of their fruites are iustified by the writē and vndoubted word of God and which not The XXXIIII Chapter IF that the sence of this prouerbe be harde for you to disgest I a◠content to staie vntill your stomacke be somewhat better assuring my selfe that you can interprete it no waie vnto your aduantage There is nothing more certaine then the good tree to beare good fruite if one doeth not make him change his owne nature but if one doe grafte vpon it some crabstocke or some other kinde of wilde fruite the tree can beare no other but crabs or wiledings euen so we Christian persons who are the trees of God planted by the pleasant fountaine of his grace and purged with the holy water of Baptisme to beare fruite at our season so that we take euer to prosper withall the dewe of his grace that planted vs I meane the faith of our sauiour Iesus Christ so long we beare good fruite as it is saied before alleadging the a The 5. you would say as before 3. of S. Iohn ill vnderstood by Iouinian he that is borne of God doeth not sinne for the generation of God doeth preserue him and the enemy of our health shall not touch him b If yo◠had lookt into the booke you should not haue found both these testimonies in one chapter for the first is in the fift this in the third And in the saied Chapter he saieth againe all men or euery man that is borne of God doeth not sinne for the seede of God is in him and he cannot sinne because be is borne of God By this it is not meant that Baptisme the which he doeth call the beeing borne c He speaketh of reall not simply of sacramentall regeneratiō of God doeth take awaie from man the power or libertie to doe euill for if he will degenerate from the grace that he hath receaued by the sacrament of regeneration and that in steede of growing graft vpon the stocke of the loue of God which is the true life that he will fructifie towards his death and destruction in this case hee is no more the sonne of God for as Christ saieth * John 8. If yee be the children of Abraham doe the workes of Abraham But as hee doeth continue and hath this good will which was taught by the Angell vnto the sheepheardes and that hee doeth continue