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A48248 A friendly discourse between an English dissenter and a French Protestant concerning the liturgy and ceremonies of the Church of England. By Daniel la Fite, M.A. Rector of East-Dean, in the county of Sussex. The first part.; Friendly discourse between an English dissenter and a French Protestant. Part 1 Lafite, Daniel. 1691 (1691) Wing L177; ESTC R201987 32,685 118

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be set and fixed so as it may not be lawfull for the Ministers to recede from it in their function as well to help and assist the simplicity and unskilfulness of some as to give a fuller evidence of the consent and uniformity of all the several Congregations and finally that by this means the changeable humour of those that affect novelties may be check'd and obviated E. D. I always thought Calvin had been of the same judgment that we are though you would seem to persuade me to the contrary But to make an end of our Discourse at this time I shall onely ask you one question more and then I have done which is this What your French Divines judge concerning us who for Conscience sake refuse to make use of the Liturgy in our Assemblies or to frequent the Congregations of those that do F. P. What you desire you may find in the forementioned Discourse of Dr. Durel where he sets down this Letter of the Reverend Monsieur Goyon Minister at Bordeaux which is thus translated SIR I Have received your Letter with an extreme satisfaction as having been informed thereby both of your own condition and of that of the Church of England I must confess that we have been strangely deceived in this Countrey by what hath been related to us touching the English Presbyterians I did always imagine them to be a People that followed the same order we observe in our Churches of France but it seems they are very far from it The Description you give of them shews them to be a strange Sect not fit to be tolerated and I conceive that the best remedy of this disorder and confusion would be to reduce them all to the Episcopal Government for I hold it impossible that the Church of England should ever be quiet or flourish otherwise The Convocation comes in a very fit time for this purpose and I question not but that Assembly will take order about it which will be a great satisfaction to me for otherwise you will be continually in trouble and the Adversaries will take advantage thereby either to blemish and slander our Religion or to contrive and foment Plots against the State I beseech the Lord that he would be pleased to rule and govern that Holy Assembly and pour his Blessings upon their Determinations for the Advancement of his Kingdom E. D. Though this Man saith too much yet he saith nothing in particular to the point of our refusing to reade the Common-prayer in our Assemblies and to frequent the Churches where it is read F. P. If you think that Monsieur Goyon doth not speak home enough to the matter in question be pleased to reade what Ludovicus Capellus Divinity-Professor at Saumur saith to it in the Body of Divinity published by him and his two Collegues Moses Amyraldus and Joshua Placaeus in which Book this Learned Man having at large proved the Lawfulness Vse and Necessity of a set Form of Liturgy in opposition to the then newly started Directory which the Presbyterians endeavour'd to establish instead of the Common-prayer It is also worthy our noting that he maintain'd a publick Dispute on this Subject in the Divinity-School wherein he defended the Common-prayer of the Church of England as good sound and expedient against the Cavils and Objections of the Presbyterians even at that very time when the Opposers of set Forms were in the greatest power in this Kingdom and that it was generally believed the Liturgy of the Church of England would never have been restored E. D. But what saith he in particular of us for if you don't tell me I shall scarce take the pains of reading over his Book to inform my self F. P. I am unwilling to give you his words because I fear you 'll find some of his Expressions too sharp and cutting E. D. As long as I suppose he was no English Tory I shall take all he saith of us in good part F. P. Towards the end of his first Thesis he saith Vnum superest examinandum c. which in English speaks thus There remains yet one thing to be enquir'd into viz. Whether there ought to be a certain set Form of Liturgy consisting of express words or Whether it ought rather to be left to the will of the Pastor to use what words or form he pleaseth and this because of a new Generation of late Upstarts which will admit of no certain and prescribed Form of Liturgy neither in the publick Assemblies of the Church nor in private Devotions but maintain that all ought to be left to the pleasure of Ministers and the Heads of Families And in his sixth Thesis he declares That the several Authors of the Reformation had every where compos'd and prescrib'd several set Forms of Liturgy and that the same were still made use of by the Reformed Churches in their several Nations and Districts with happy success and edification till of late there arose in England a froward scrupulous and over nice not to say superstitious Generation of men who thought good not onely to blame and find fault with but wholly to abrogate and cast off the Liturgy hitherto used in their Church instead whereof they have introduc'd their Directory as they call it He adds further That the Reasons and Causes you pretend to have for abolishing the Common-prayer were levissimae nulliusque pene momenti very slight and scarce of any moment at all And in Thesis 28. he saith Certainly nothing else has stirred up these men so eagerly to reject all manner of set Forms of Prayer but partly the desire of innovating and corrupting to the end that under the specious pretext of Liberty to pray and prophesie they might introduce all manner of Sects and Errors into the Church and partly their false and prejudicate opinion persuading themselves that we are now arriv'd at that time wherein as in the days of the Apostles the Spirit of Prophecy of prayer and Supplications is to be poured forth upon the present Church according to that of Joel 2.28 and Zach. 12. v. 10. which is the common and most pestilent Error of all the Phanaticks concerning the sending of the H. Ghost by Christ c. And drawing up his whole Dissertation into certain Conclusions he saith Thesis 49. The use of these set Forms of Prayer cannot justly be condemned forasmuch as the same may be always and every where profitable and convenient and because they have been receiv'd by the universal Christian Church for these 1300 years all the World over except onely among these new-fangled Independents so he calls all those who reject the use of set Forms And Thesis 50. he adds further So that the perversness peevishness and superstition or rather the malapert and obstinate wilfulness of these men is both prodigious and sensless who out of a mere humour or desire of lawless licentiousness or out of design to introduce confusion into the Church do superstitiously condemn and compare to an Idol forbidden by the fourth Commandment a thing which in it self is most innocent the use of it edifying and the practice of it most convenient which has long obtained in the Universal Church was never yet condemned by any Church and which all the Churches of God make use of with the greatest benefit that may be which yet these men most foolishly would have all to forbear and abhor And lastly in 51 Thesis he saith And amongst the rest those are most to be detested who either will not allow the Lord's Prayer to be said at all or will have it said alone and not in conjunction with any other Prayer whether publick or private and who think it a great sin for any godly man to be present either in the Church at Common-prayer or in any Family at private Devotions where any set Form is used and hold this for a just cause of Separation from the Church lest they should be Partakers of the Sins of those who use set Forms and thereby become defiled being not unlike to those of whom the Prophet Isaiah speaks chap. 6. v. 5. which say Stand by thy self come not near me for I am holier than thou these are a smoak in my nostrils saith the Lord that is they kindle my wrath against them The Lord grant they may return to a better mind Amen And so say I too Amen Amen And thus I take my leave of you in the words of this Learned and most Renowned Divine E. D. But pray why in such haste We have not yet made an end of our dispute for when I told you I had done I meant with your Liturgy Wherefore now it remains that we discourse concerning the Ceremonies of your Church which I intended for a Second Part of this our Conference F. P. If I be not mistaken we have discours'd long enough for once besides I must give you time to consider what hath been said and if you chance to approve it and desire further to discourse me about the Ceremonies of the Church I now assure you that I shall at any time be ready to serve you to the utmost of my power The End of the First Part.