Trent This concupiscence which the Apostle sometime calleth sinne the holy Synod declareth that the Catholike Church did neuer vnderstand to be called sinne because it is truely properly sinne in the regenerate but because it commeth of sinne and inclineth vnto sinne If any man thinke the contrarie let him be accursed Sess 5. cap. 1. de pecc orig Wherein they both decree against the Apostle himselfe Rom. 7.23 and also they gaine say themselues for if this concupiscence boile out of originall sinne as out of a fountaine and that is damnable it followeth that concupiscence or lust is also sinne before God and doth deserue condemnation They say that in the regenerate it is veniall But this is an vndoubted principle that all sinnes in themselues and their owne nature are mortall And concerning this veniall sinne it was not knowne among the Fathers for 700. yeeres after Christ And thus you see what grosse things they both teach and practise contrary to the Commandements of God whereby it plainely appeareth that Popery cannot bee of God for thus I reason Whatsoeuer religion doth teach things contrary to the Commandements of God is not of God but Poperie doth so and therefore it is not of GOD and so by good consequence Papists cannot be good Catholikes DIALOGVE 13. C. Hitherto you haue shewed that the Papists teach many things contrary to the Creede the Sacraments and the ten Commandements now tell me I pray you whether they teach any thing contrary to the Lords Prayer M. They doe likewise teach practise many things contrarie thereunto I will but onely name some of them The Lords Prayer teacheth vs to call vpon God only They teach and practise prayer to Saints In the first Petition we pray for the hallowing of Gods Name They giue vnto Saints departed that which is proper to God and so dishonour Gods Name In the second petition we pray for the erecting of Gods Kingdome of grace in our hearts and also for the meanes thereof namely the preaching hearing of Gods Word They hinder the comming of Gods Kingdome in reiecting the Word of God and in persecuting such as will preach heare and reade it Contrary to the third petition is their doctrine of free-will Contrary to the fifth petition is their doctrine of satisfaction for sin In the sixth petition we pray for strength to withstand Satan his temptations They teach people to driue away the Diuell with holy-water and such like childish toyes These and other such like things they teach and practise contrary to the Lords Prayâ—r DIALOGVE 14. C. If Popery be so contrary to the grounds of Religion then we may â—ot ioyne with the Papists in their profession M. It is true indeede we must therefore doe as the Lord â—â—de Ieremy Chap. 15.19 Let them returne to thee but reâ—urne not thou to them We may ioyne with them in respect â—f ciuill societie but not in respect of Religion and yet eâ—en then we are to take heed left we be corrupted by them â—r he that toucheth Pitch shall be defiled therewith Some thinke that our Religion and the religion of the present Church of Rome are all one for substance and that they may be vnited but they are grosely deceiued for an vnion of these two Religions can neuer be made more then the vnion of light and darknesse and that because the Church of Rome as hath at large bin shewed hath strooke at the very foundation C. If Poperie bee so contrary to the very grounds of Religion then what is the cause that so many yea of the more wise and learned sort do embrace and cleaue to it M. One speciall cause of it is that because men will not receiue the loue of the Trueth therefore God will send them strong delusion that they should beleeue a lie 2. Thes 2.10 11. A second cause is ignorance of the Scriptures and of the grounds of Religion for if men would well acquaint themselues herewith they should easily see the grossenesse of Poperie A third cause is that Popery is very agreeable and pleasing to mans corrupt nature As for example to be iustified by our good works to haue images to worship God in to liue in ignorance to haue pardons for our sinnes to serue God in outward ceremonies as in choice of meate difference of dayes c. these are things very agreeable pleasing to our corrupt nature and therefore one especiall cause why so many embrace Popery A fourth cause is the tyranny of the Church of Rome whose chiefe meanes to vphold her religion is fire sword for were it not for this many thousands in a few yeers would vtterly renounce Popery A fifth cause why so many especially of the Learned dâ— embrace it is pompe and profit that is ambition and couetousnesse This was that which made the Scribes and Pharises eueâ— against their owne knowledge to withstand Christ and 〈◊〉 Gospell And this makes many learned Papists ro do the like They know no doubt that in some things they erre as it doth appeare by the words of Stephen Gardiner on his death bed The Bishop of Chichester seeing him to be in a desperate case comforteth him with the hope of remission of sinnes by the merits of Christ Gardiner hereunto answereth thus What will you open that gappe now you may speake it to me and to such as are in my case but if you teach it to the people then farewell all meaning our authority pompe and profit by absolutions Masses c. These are the speciall causes why so many embrace Popery C. There is one thing more that I would gladly know concerning the Papists and that is whether a Papist may be saued seeing that Popeâ—ie is so contrary to the grounds of Religion M. You are then to marke what a Papist is A Papist as the Rhemists on Acts 11. Sect. 4. doe describe him is one that cleaueth to the Pope in Religion and is obedient to him in all things Euery one now that is vnder the iurisdictioÌ„ of the Pope is not to be counted a Papist for there are some euen in Italy â—paine c. that hold the Grounds of Religion doe sigh and â—rone vnder the Romish yoke and desire to be free'd from 〈◊〉 yea would reioyce to see it Againe there may be some that for want of knowledge â—nd the meanes thereof are entangled with some points of â—opery but yet they hold the foundation which is CHRIST â—ESVS and looke to be saued by his merits and not by their â—wne or any others Such we account not Papists but the â—â—e Church and children of GOD. But by Papists wee meane such as cleaue fast to the Pope in Religion are in all â—â—ings obedient to him will not be reclaimed from their erâ—â—urs refuse to heare the Word of God to read the Scripâ—â—res or any other good bookes Of such we may boldly say â—â—t if they thus continue to the end they cannot be saued DIALOGVE 15. C. I
determined as a publike Law in the Councell of Constance about the yeere 1114. Perk. 2. Vol. 554.2 b. Secondly they reserue the Bread in boxes pixes other vessels of the Church for dayes weekes and moneths They shew it to the people the Priest lifting it ouer his head anâ— going with it in procession All this is contrary to the Sacrament for it is no Sacrament vnlesse there be a giuing receiuing eating and drinking M. Attersoll on the Sacraments 386 387. The reseruation of the Sacrament was not allowed of but rather found fault withall by the Fathers Perk. 2. vol. 557. Thirdly they adore fall downe and honour the Sacrament with diuine worship calling it their Lord and God A thing neuer heard of among the heathen Idolaters namely to worship a piece of bread or rather a thin Wafer The adoration in the Sacrament belongeth vnto Christ sitting in heauen and is an inward worship of the heart or lifting vp of the minde being stirred vp with the outward signes Pope Honorius the third in the yeere 1220. was the first that euer instituted the adoration of the Sacrament And after him Vrban the fourth ordained a feast in honour of the body of Christ Perk. 2. Vol. 564. Attersoll on the Sacraments 388 389. Fourthly they turne the Sacrament into a sacrifice for the quick the dead abolishing the fruit remembrance of the death of Christ disannulling his Priesthood giuing him to his Father whereas the Father hath giuen him to vs c. ibid. page 390. Fiftly they maintaine Transubstantiation These are their very words If any man shall say that there remaineth the substance of Bread and Wine in the Sacrament after the words of consecration or shal deny that the whole substance of Bread and Wine is changed and conuerted into the bodie and bloud of Christ the formes and shewes onely of Bread and Wine remaining which singular and miraculous conuersion the Church calleth Transubstantiation let him be accursed Con. Trid. Sess 13. Can. 2. This their doctrine of Transubstantiation is a very fable to mock fooles withall and it ouerturneth both the nature and vse of the Sacrament Attersoll on the Sacraments page 45. 46. page 365. to 369. If there were a miraculous conuersion as they say there is of the Bread and Wine it would appeare to the outward senses For al true miracles are wrought openly cleerely euidently to mens senses Ioh. 6.26 But the Bread and Wine by the iudgement of all the senses remaineth and appeareth to be the same in substance which it was before of the same quality quantitie colour taste handling smelling vertue and nourishment there is not any one sense or all the senses together that can iudge otherwise of it then it did before If a man should bee called in when the Bread and Wine is set on the Table and bidden to consider well what he there seeth smelleth tasteth and then is willed to goe forth and to come in againe after the Consecration is ended by the Priest and to do the like and then is asked what he thinketh of it he no doubt will answere vnlesse feare of persecution make him to conceale the truth I see feele smell and taste the same wafer-cake and wine that I did before I can perceiue no naturall and substantiall change therein And therefore it followeth that there is no miracle wrought and consequently no transubstantiation at all The difference that is is in the end vse onely Before consecration it was common bread and wine ordained for the nourishing of our bodies After consecration it becommeth holy Bread and Wine sanctified by the Lord not so much to feede the body as the soule C. Did not the ancient Fathers hold this doctrine of Transubstantiation M. They knew nothing hereof for at least 800. yeeres after Christ Afterwards begun the disputations of Transubstantiation but not approued as an Article of faith The Church for a whole thousand yeeres taught no other then spirituall receiuing of Christ In the yeere 1215. Transubstantiation was decreed and determined in the Councell of Lateran vnder Pope Innocent the Third and made a maine matter of faith Perk. 2. vol. 558 559. C. What say you then of their Transubstantiated or consecrated host as it is called or the bread in the boxe carried in processiâ—n worshipped M. Surely it is nothing else but a wheaten or breaden god or rather an Idol nothing inferiour to Aarons Calfe or Ierohoams Calues or the Nehustan and piece of brasse that Ezechias brake in pieces nay as vile and detestable as an Idoll among the Heathen And for a conclusion of their doctrine of Transubstantiation I will heere set downe a wittie conceit which one shewed me not long since I haue kept the matter but changed the meeter to make it sound somewhat the sweeter The Priests doe make Christs body and bloud Hereof none must once doubt They eate they drinke they box him vp They beare him all about DIALOGVE 7. C. I am satisfied touching the first point namely that the Papists are not of sound faith but how doe you proue that they are not of good life seeing they doe so many good workes M. I proue it thus Where the Doctrine is corrupt the life cannot be good but their doctrine as you haue heard is most corrupt therefore their life cannot bee good A true faith is the ground of a good life and without which it is impossible to please God Heb. 11.6 yea whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne Rom. 14.23 A true faith they haue not and therefore their workes cannot be good and such as may please God That they haue not a true and sound faith hath bin shewed in many particulars and it further appeareth also in this that they do euen wilfully reiect the meanes whereby it is wrought namely the preaching hearing and reading the Word of God They haue not neither will they haue the Scriptures to be soundly preached read and heard in their owne tongue That they cannot abide to haue them in their owne language appeareth by this one example One Pauier a Towne-Clarke of London in the time of King Henry the Eighth hearing that the Scriptures should be put into English he spake to this effect and confirmed it with an oath viz. that if he knew that the Scriptures should bee put into English and that the King would haue them to be read in the Church rather then he would lâ—ue so long to see it he â—ould cut his owne throat But as Hall saith who heard him speake it he was not so good as his word for instead of cutting his throat he hanged himselfe C. What is the cause that they cannot abide to haue the Scriptures in their owne language M. S. John giues the reason For euery one that doth euill hateth the light neither coÌ„meth to it left his deeds should be reproued discouered Ioh. 3.20 If the Owle flieth abroad by day the birds by by discerne him
doe now plainely see that Papists are no good Catholikes because they are neither of sound faith nor good life but tell me I pray you who indeed are the true Church and true Catholikes M. All that doe truely and sincerely embrace professe and practise the aforesaid grouÌ„ds of Religion in what Countrey soeuer they liue C. Is the Church of England the true Church M. Yes for it hath the speciall markes of the true Church namely the Word of God sincerely and soundly preached and the Sacraments rightly administred C. The Papists say that there are diuersiities of opinions among vâ— that we cannot agree among our selues and that therefore wee are 〈◊〉 the true Church M. In all substantiall points of Religion we agree both amongst our selues and also with all other sound Protestants in Christendome In other things there haue bin are and will be diuersities of opinions and differences to the worlds end They should first plucke out the beame of their owne eyes for we can truely charge them with greater differences As namely with that sharpe and bloudy contention betweene the Franciscans and the Dominicans and vvith the late bitter contention betweene the Iesuites and the secular Priests wherein the Priests did write as bitterly against the Iesuites and namely against Parsons as euer did any Protestant nay there was neuer any Protestant Writeâ— that did lay such foule odious crimes to their charge as thâ— Priests did And heerein they verified the old Prouerbe When theeues fall by the eares true men come to haue theâ— goods For one dissention that is among vs they haue 〈◊〉 least ten among themselues Doctor Willet in his fourth â—â—ler of Papistry hath set downe at large First the conradictions and diuerse opinions of old Papiâ—â— and new 2. The contradictions of the Iesuites anongst themselâ—â— Thirdly that their stoutest Champion Bellarmine is at â—riance with himselfe shamefully forgetting himselfe sayâ— and vnsaying now of one opinion by and by of anothâ—â— And no maruell Oportet enim mendacem esse memorem A lyer had need to haue a good memory Fourthly he sheweth the repugnances inconueniences and inconsequent opinions which Popish Religion hath in it selfe And thus you see how they charge vs with that wherein themselues are most faulty DIALOGVE 16. C. Are there none among vs that maintaine any strange and new opinions contrary to the grounds of Religion M. If there be any such our Church doth not approue of them but rather censure and punish them C. There be some that professe the former grounds of Religion as we doe and yet say that there is no true Church among vs and therefore will not ioyne with vs in prayers hearing the Word and in the vse of the â—acraments but separate themselues from vs what say you of such M. I say that they are possessed with the spirit of pride and singularity and that in so doing they doe euen deny â—hese Articles of faith the Catholike Church and the Communion of Saints and are such as the Apostle speakes of Ro. â—6 17 Heb. 10.25 39. Master Perkins in his first Vol. pag. 409. â—ls them a schismaticall and vndiscreet company and saith â—â—at they are full of pride thinking themselues to bee full â—hen they are empty to haue all knowledge when they are â—â—norant haue need to be catechized Another saith thus 〈◊〉 them The errour of those men is full of euill yea of blesâ—â—emie who doe in such manner make a departure from this â—hurch as if Christ were quite banished from hence and â—â—at there could be no hope of saluation to those that abide â—â—ere And further he saith that if they cannot finde Christ â—ere they shall finde him no where The errours of these â—â—n you may see in a little Treatise set forth by M. Bernard â—â—led The Separatists Schisme C. I pray shew me some example that they ought not to separate â—â—â—mselues from vs and that they doe sinne in so doing M. In the Church of Corinth the incestuous man was not â—â—nished fornication was lightly regarded yea there were some that euen denied the Resurrection yet S. Paul doth account and call them the Church and Saints hee doth not perswade any to make a separation but doth plainely rebuke them and sheweth how they should punish the euill doer I speake not this to excuse any grosse sinne that raigneth amongst vs for I wish that the same might bee seuerely punished but to shew that where the Word is truely preached and the Sacraments rightly administred as in our Church they are none ought for any cause to separate themselues And that such as doe it doe sinne grieuously I will shew yoâ— by a familiar example A mother conceiueth and bringeth forth a sonne and that with great trauaile and paine Sheâ— traineth him vp to mans estate and that not without great care and labour This sonne at length espying some spot and blemish or some infirmitie in his mother forsaketh her and will not acknowledge her to be his mother what would you now thinke of him C. Surely I should thinke such a one to be a very wicked and vnnaturall sonne M. Euen such are they who for some seeming faults iâ— our Church deny it to be a true Church and doe separatâ— themselues from it whereas this Church hath conceiueâ— them brought them forth and nourished them For if eâ—eâ— they were truely begotten vnto Christ and borne anew iâ— hath been by our Church and our Ministerie by whicâ— likewise they haue been trained vp and brought to thâ—â— knowledge which they haue C. There are many amongst vs that make great profession of Râ—â—â—on but I can see no good workes come from them nay they are 〈◊〉 onely barren in good workes but also liue in some one grosse sinne or 〈◊〉 Are these the true Church and true Catholikes M. Though they liue in the Church yet they are noâ— the Church they are but Hypocrites and shal if they repâ—â—â— not haue the reward of Hypocrites yea it shall bee eâ—â— in the Day of Iudgement for many Papists then for theâ—â— because by their barten and fruitlesse yea wicked 〈◊〉 they haue caused the Name of God his Gospell the true Professors thereof to be euil spoken of Let all therfore that will be accounted the true Church and true Christians be carefull to adorne the doctrine of God our Sauiour in all things and that by a godly conuersation and by doing of good workes C. The name of God be blessed for this our conference whereby I finde my selfe much edified There remaineth yet one thing more which I will demand of you and that is How I may come to know and be assured that I am indeed a member of the true Church and that I shall certainly be saued M. Be diligent to heare the Word of God preached Reade the Scriptures Receiue often the Sacrament Acquaint your selfe throughly with the aforesaid grounds of Religion Ioyne hereunto earnest and hearty prayer Set apart some time for these things specially be carefull to spend the Sabbath herein And to all these things ioyne an holy conuersation indeuouring aboue all things to haue alway a cleere conscience toward God and toward men In doing this you shall at length come to that full assurance whereof S. Paul speaketh namely that you are the child of God and that nothing shall be able to separate you from the loue of God which is in Christ Rom. 8.38 Babylon is falne is falne Reu. 14.8 Praise honour glory and power be vnto him that sitteth vpon the Throne and vnto the Lambe for euermore Amen Reuelation 5.13 FINIS