the high commission especially seeing that the high commission dealeth only by authority from the prince and is limitted with lawes and is subiect to the princes commaundement and dealeth onely in extraordinary cognitions and may bee reuoked and cassed as the prince shall thinke meete And where onely Ecclesiasticall persons meddle with the censures whereas contrariwise the imperious church-aldermen clayme no commission from the prince nay they challenge the power and vicarage of Christ Iesus and superioritie ouer all princes and deale in small and great causes yea clownes and doltes dispute of relgion and throw out excommunications and rule all without lawe or reason by the onely instinct of their vncleane spirit or rather changeable fancie and therefore the Remonstrance sayth well that it is a lynsey wolsey and motley discipline patched together by men of motley ierkins consisting of contrary pieces iumbling both Church and common wealth together while ministers are sent abroad to beg for their liuing and artificers and clownes rule like Lordes in the Consistorie prescribing Lawes to princes so that if the Libeller desire this goodly gallimafrey of discipline hee is more fitte to weare a motley cote with an addition of haukes belles then to gouerne a Church or any part of the common wealth Quaere Put-case Quest 43. if the sole gouernment of a bishop in a diocesse be sufficiēt and most agreeable to Gods worde why is there an ecclesiasticall commission standing of many persons ciuill and Ecclesiasticall or if an Ecclesiasticall commission bee needefull in a Realme why not in a Prouince If in a Prouince why not in a Diocesse If in a Diocesse why not in a Deanrie If in a Deanerie why not in a Parish Lastly why might there not without absurditie and breache of true vniformitie bee planted in some places already capable a Consistorie or Commission of Elders though the like cannot bee accomplished in all seeing there bee newe Ecclesiasticall Commissions erected Deanes and Chapters broken musicke and Organs in some places not in other To these three questions Answere which are the very crisis of the Put case dreaming furie I answere first that seeing the prince by the lawes of God is soueraine gouernour in all causes within her dominions that beside the ordinary iurisdiction of Bishops within their seuerall Diocesse it is very requisite that there should bee a superiour authoritie to assist them and to strengthen them and to supply that which is wanting and in case they doe not their dueties to correct them secondly that as the Prince is one so there ought to bee but one supreme authoritie although by that authoritie her Maiestie may appoynt diuers Commissioners and yet nothing commeth thereby to the Eldership that claymeth authoritie not from the prince but from God and would altogether breake the vnion of her gouernement while euery consistorie would rule the congregation vnder it as best pleaseth my lords the church aldermen As for the gradation of the libeller if hee had vnderstoode any logicke he might haue learned that no kind of argument is more faultie by this reason a man might thus conclude against the libeller that if he will libell against authoritie hee will not spare the counsell if they withstande him if not the counsell neither will he spare the prince if hee contemne all humane lawes he will not greatly esteeme Gods lawes if hee care not for Gods lawe then will he not in the ende care for God himselfe likewise if the Sanedrin was at Ierusalem then in other cities if in cities then in boroughs so in villages and if the consistory be required in parishes then in villages if in villages then in hamlets if in hamlets then in houses if in houses then in the kitchin where the cooke is chiefe moderator which followe as well as his reasons many doe thinke that one high commission is inough too much for al England what then woulde they thinke if they should see in euery parish high commissioners yea what if there were but such cōmissioners as the aldermen of the cōsistonie be that claime a most absolute high commission from God planted in euery parish it would then be time to runne into some other countrey à remotis for it would bee hard liuing in England thirdly I say that there is no place in England capable of the aldermanshippe but such as is very capable of faction and disloyalty and that his reason drawen from organs and broken musicke is very weake for albeit there is broken musicke in some places and not in other yet can there be no elderships in any place for if any should bee placed the musicke of that companie compared with other places woulde sound like a paire of broken organes not onely like broken musicke and that gouernment would breake both Church and common wealth in pieces bring all out of tune they haue done it already in places where they be setled and were vnknowen to all antiquitie and therefore what reason haue wee to make triall of that which is like to prooue so dangerous Thus you haue heard all those contumelious cases questions and demands which this railing Putcase in his malicious fury hath thought good to propound not only to disgrace hurt the ecclesiastical state but also to ouerthrow law and gouernment if the course be lawful and honest who may not as well propound questions to the dishonor of any state or noble personage in the land there is no man of so rare merite nor so honorable but might if this course were suffered bee brought into enuie hatred and if I shoulde follow him in this course good Lord what shamefull and ridiculous matters do the publike and priuate actions of these factious persons offer to mens view al which albeit they deserue to heare yet it is not for me to speake neither do graue men desire to know I will only for requitall frame certaine interrogatories concerning the cause those persons which are principal agents in this cause that seeing how open they lye themselues they may hereafter deale more modestly with others if they follow this course I doe assure them that for euery one they haue propounded to vs there will be by some or other twentie propounded to them in the meane while let them content themselues with these and blame not me for I doe but answere and followe them seeing they haue begunne to come into this kind of field they must haue patience to stand to the hazard of warres if they would haue dealt ciuilly with me they should not haue ouercome me in curtesie CERTAINE QVESTIONS PROPOVNDED to the Putcase and his adherents wherein diuerse well affected to the state desire to be resolued QVaere whether hee that maketh doubt of the principles of our Christian faith bee not by the opinion of the ancient fathers an haeretike and whether the lawes do not condemne him for a traytor that maketh doubt of her Maiesties right to the
Church and schooles are contemned I would I might not say discouraged they are made markes for licentious youthes armed with malice to shoote their boltes against the lawes are not onely contemned but most boldly oppugned yea with such confidencie that law is now accounted disorder and faction and tumult termed 2 Petition to her Maiestie reformation and libellers in euill time called reformers what resteth for them to worke but that al wise and learned men being put from gouernment the seely sots which these call elders and certaine famous authors of popular faction should be placed in the highest offices or else that lawes being not executed or Iudges crossed in executing of iustice the contumacious might liue as they list wherein they seeke nothing but that eyther the forreyne enemie may oppresse vs or els inward tumult and disorder consume vs. But I doubt not but her Maiestie and all those that beare office vnder her will take speedie order that it is not alreadie taken many do wonder some doe complayne but the clemencie of her Maiesties times and her benigne nature doth afford vs answere she will not haue any complaine that in this case any are punished but such as are obstinate heynous and notorious disturbers of the state because they were not at the first knowen for such shee would not haue them punished for such besides this the height of the stile and the loude bragges they made of their discipline made many beleeue they did it eyther of simplicitie or zeale or error few suspected the greedines of some and malice and ambition of others their notorious hypocrisie could not of long time be discouered but now their leudnes is apparent and their false visage is dismasked let them therefore beware that they abuse not the clemencie of the times or hope for continuance of vndeserued fauour The vanitie of their bragges and weakenesse of their cause is euident to all that are not eyther wilfully blinded or naturally ignorant All the demonstrations of their discipline are discifred and stand confuted they doe not so much as goe about to defend them their whole plots of false discipline lye razed they cannot say a word for them in this late petition wherein they had occasion to shewe their skill they haue not so much as answered one argument brought by vs against them The defence of Bezamade for his Aldermen most weake and simple as in a desperate cause they haue intreated Beza to say somewhat wherein we may see that their forces are spent to the last man yea so spent that they haue no hope of recouerie for what saith he good man hee telleth vs a long tale of his Geneuian deuises hut neyther doth hee answere our arguments nor bringeth scripture fathers or reason for his cause vnlesse wee beleeue him on his bare word the controuersie is at an end call you this answering this is rather the playne ouerthrowe of his cause for while hee went about to answere he hath confirmed our cause saying nothing either for himselfe or against vs but what he in his olde age dreameth where was T.C. that valiant champion of discipline all this while where was W. Tr. W. Ch. D. Sp. could not one of them speake for their cause but they must send to Geneua for a speaker it is too great and notable a confession of the weakenesse of their cause As for him or that I mistake not them that made the petition lately printed and pretended to be presented to her Maiestie on the behalfe of the Puritans they doe not deserue the name of speakers vnlesse it be among Puritans where euery one that can prate is sayde to speake For what say they for their cause their onely reason is because Caluin Beza Daneus Carpentier Golart Perot Tauergues Pollan Sneccan and a number of other authors of whose names and gestes we should neuer haue heard if these mē had not in this cause brought their names to light doe speake somewhat for their consistorie that therefore we are to like of it A goodly reason yet such a one as I thinke they will not admitte against their discipline For albeit Master R. M.B.M.G. M.A. M.H. M.D. M.W. and infinite other learned and good preachers among vs yea such as one of them is to be vaed against many of these ignorant and presumptuous disciplinarians do like of the present gouernment yet are they not therwith satisfied nay albeit all the ancient Fathers and acts of Counsels do like of the auctoritie gouernment of Bishops yet are these fellowes stil contending against it That the same was established by most learned and godly men that in Q. Maries time gaue their liues for the testimonie of the trueth they litle weigh nay they neither care for them nor their authoritie With what face then can they alledge Golart Pollan Sneccan and a number of birdes of like feather and men neither wise nor learned nor that haue ground of antiquitie or reason seeing they renounce not onely the authoritie of our men more learned then they but of our Martyrs more holy men then they yea and all the writings of the Fathers and actes of Counsels speaking of the authoritie and state of Bishops and such a gouernment as we haue In times past they were wont to tell vs of certaine lawes established by God himselfe and made vante that they would proue their discipline out of Gods word Why then are they now mute why are not these lawes and this worde brought forth why are they silent in bringing forth these mightie reasons when all is come to all must we rest on Golart Pollan Tauergues and Sneccans three or foure odde compagnions idle conceits there can nothing be deuised more absurd nor sencelesse Therefore hauing nothing to say in defence of their cause now in a desperate rage they begin to reuell not onely at Bishops but also at Lawes and Iudges and the ordinarie tryals of this Realme The drift of the petition is to shew that Iohn Vdall was wrongfully condemned they insinuate therein that the Iudges were either corrupted or blinded and that the euidence was wrested They say in plaine tearmes that Iudges haue no skill to deale with such fellowes as Iohn Vdall another kinde of man percase then he is taken to be Is hee trowe you any of Hackets or Coppingers consortes to bring Bishops into hatred they haue after their petition collected diuers Articles and by them and by certaine calumnious interrogatories haue gone about to bring them in disgrace with the multitude that if they cannot haue their desire of their celestiall consistorie they may be yet reuenged of such as they take to be the hinderers of their purposes Whose malice to encounter as before I haue answered their cauils against the ecclesiasticall gouernment of our Church to the vtter disgrace of the Consistorie so now hauing other occasions to print a discourse against Bellarmine and forreine aduersaries of our Church I haue thought good to
recreate my selfe with this more easie labour and to answere their cauils at our proceedings in law together with such authorities as they bring for the proofe of their consistorie to the finall discouerie of their vnbrideled malice that all seeing the nakednesse of their cause may ioyne together to extirpate the reliques of those that haue bene causers of these stirres Against this my purpose I doe vnderstand that diuers exceptions are taken First those that fauour the consistoriall discipline doe say I withstand a noble worke of reformation and therefore cannot like of my doings but vnto these this whole treatise shall make answere for thereby it shall appeare that their whole course tendeth rather to confusion and disorder of Church and state then to reformation of eyther and therefore seeing they doe declare themselues open enemies both vnto the present state and to me in this cause I doe not regard what they like or dislike no doubt but that open enemies will like that best which for the State is worst and greatly prayse that which tendeth to the hurt thereof Others there are that condemne all those discourses that are written of both sides concerning this argument which albeit they would seeme to be friendes yet in deede are enemies as well as the other For no more is he an enemie that oppugneth vs in plaine fielde then hee that trecherously seeketh to discourage such as are forwarde in mainteining the State at home and albeit they would colour their malice with pretence of detestation of contention among friendes yet doe they vs wrong to accompt them that oppugne the state friendes or attribute the cause of contention to vs that onely defend the State against contentious and malcontent persons such as would ruinate the same for not those that defend but those that begin the braule are contentious Were it not thinke you a ridiculous thing for a man to say that valiant men that fight for their countrey are contentious and a poynt of trecherie to discourage them why then should not the like bee thought of those that condemne them that write in defence of the present gouernment of religion and learning in like degree as if they had writ against the same These men are sorie that any should stop the breach against such as seeke to enter to make spoyle and therefore as secret enemies or weake persons that neither vnderstand matters of State nor reason are to be contemned if not reproued A last sort there is that percase mislike the sharpenesse of my stile but they must consider that in this discourse I deale not against men of learning or grauitie or such as desire to learne or finde out trueth but against ignorant wilfull and seditious Libellers that seeke partly by falshood and partly by disgrace of some bad persons vnworthy of their places to discredite the whole ecclesiastical state against whom no sharpenesse of stile can be sufficient but I did respect rather what became me to speake then what they deserued to heare This discourse I present to your Lordship a man well acquainted with the humors of the men and weakenesse of their cause a Iudge most skilfull in law Vnto whom should wee seeke for resolution in law and redresse of wrong rather then to him that beareth so honourable a charge in matters of Iustice vnder your name I would it should come to the handes and viewe of all other reuerend Iudges learned Lawyers and well affected subiectes Wee desire nothing more then that matters may bee examined according to iustice and doubt not but if that may be obtayned that the controuersie will bee ended and the calumnious mouthes of factious persons stopped for seeing the platformers haue neither support of trueth nor law what man will doubt but that they are to be repressed aswell by Iustice as by disputation and discourse That is the meanes to ende all our complaynts the remedie of our common griefes if the perturbers of our State at home were first calmed I would not doubt but forrein aduersaries would soone be danted and the mindes of friendes vnited to the ioy of all that loue the trueth of Gods religion and seeke the long continuance of her Maiesties peaceable reigne and the florishing state of the Church Accept therefore I beseech you my good Lord this my good will which I testifie vnto you in this Treatise Due it is to you being so forwarde and vpright in matters of Iustice and was expected at my handes being specially touched in the petition which I answere I make your Lordship and all the learned yea all indifferent men iudges Iudge therefore according to iustice and trueth There is no reason I should require fauour in this cause further then my simple skill and vnsufficient handling of matters for want of time and being oppressed with other businesse shall require fauour The Lord send peace to his Church and heape vpon you and all others that loue his trueth all heauenly graces that by your meanes enioying the benefites of true religion iustice and peace wee may consent in one trueth and ioyntly in his holy Church glorifie Christ Iesus the Prince of peace In London the 20 of December Your Lordships in all duetie and heartie affection MATHEVV SVTCLIFFE The Preface wherein both the argument of the discourse ensuing is deliuered and certaine generall faults of the petition touched I Had once well hoped that eyther the authoritie of the Magistrate could haue commanded or the terrour of the common enemie that so violently doth assayle the whole Church at this time would haue enforced the contentious to make an ende of their braules and if neither reuerence of superiors nor respect of common profit could put them to silence yet did I imagine seeing they haue nothing to say that discretion and common sense would make them to hold their peace how much my expectation was deceiued this petition which I haue here vndertaken to answere doth declare for without respect to lawes or common profite yea or common reason the author thereof hath put forth himselfe to speake a man as you shal see without reuerence to superiours or conscience in reporting of lawes or iudgementin matters diuine or humane and most vnable to speake or write in this or other argument To goe no further this his petition shall make proofe of my words for neither is there art in his stile nor witte or sharpenesse in his arguments nor is there any decencie obserued in the discourse nor doth the treatise agree with the title nor the parts thereof with themselues the stile is like Iohn Bels song of Couentrie the sentences hang together like lenten deames first he kneeleth on his knee then asketh pardon afterward telleth of all good subiects how they desire peace and yet notwithstanding he telleth of many that increase contention then he talketh of writing of bookes of generall counsels and a newe kind of disputing by writing matters that neyther haue coherence among themselues
bolts euen bitter and slanderous words Besides the former the libeller hath also these faultes most fouly hee abuseth scriptures most shamefully hee alledgeth authors most ignorantly hee talketh of lawe and maliciously reuelleth at the ecclesiasticall state in the first page hee abuseth three places of scripture the 1 Prouerb 31. wise man sayth open thy mouth for the dumbe c. by this place he would iustifie his babbling in this treatise but nothing is more impertinent to his purpose then this sentence for the wise man would haue innocents that cannot speake for themselues defended by order and iustice by such as can speake neyther may wee thinke that it was his meaning that euery seditious person shoulde gape and rayle against Lawes and Gouernours for doing iustice or that malefactours shoulde bee defended against lawe and iudges how can then this place agree to his purpose seeing those men whome the libeller defendeth are not innocentes for they were condemned for felonie and tryed according to the lawes of England neyther were they mute when they reuelled against gouernours nor was Iohn Vdall condemned but for speaking too much nor is this busie behauiour of this companion any way allowed nor sedition or libelling priutledged The Prophet sayth further Psal 115. that because hee beleeued therefore he spake which the libeller turneth answere and woulde drawe to this his treatise but it fitteth not for this petition is no answere but rather a rayling libell or challenge neyther proceedeth it of faith but of a foolish disordered conceite of a distempered brayne not yet well seasoned since the authors last bedlem fits and if this bee his beliefe then is his faith built vpon fancie and vpon that which himselfe confesseth he knoweth not Neyther doth it appertayne to his purpose that the Prophet sayth that for Sions sake he will not hold his peace for it is not the cause of Sion Isai 62. nor any good cause but sedition faction fancie conceit and opinion that by him is here defended that to the great scandale of all the watchmen of Sion yea of althat pray for the peace of Ierusalem in the end of his articles against Bishops as if hee were rauished in an ecstasie hee exclameth how long Lord holy and true and saith come Lord Iesu which sentences make much against him for all good men desire that God would trie the cause and that he in iudgement would visite the perturbers of this Church which if once it shal please him to determine to doe then shall hee and such vipers as hee that fret the bowels of the Church which nourisheth them be discouered punished rooted out these may serue you for a tast the rest of his forgeries and forcing of authors shal be touched as they shall offer themselues in their place Neyther may wee thinke that he that maketh so litle conscience to abuse or dally with the scriptures of God hath vsed more religion in handling the writings of men for example to prooue the aldermen of his Church their proceedings he hath alledged Luther Zuinglius Melancthon and many others that are contrarie to these men in their discipline and neuer knewe such aldermen as he speaketh of neyther doth Caluin nor Beza ioyne with him in his seuerall poynts of discipline therefore doth he alledge them in grosse and abuseth his readers with a shew of names the like abuse shall appeare in his quotations of lawe which he by forging and lying maketh to speake contrary to lawe Little doth hee vnderstand of lawe hee neyther knoweth what proceeding of office meaneth nor what is lawe in ministring of othes against which hee argueth neyther any one poynt of common ciuill or Canon lawe of which hee so much standeth but whatsoeuer his knowledge is in lawe his malice in rayling against the state is singuler all which poyntes as they are touched here in a generalitie so hereafter shall bee more particularly layde open and most of his misallegations falsifications malicious slaunders weake proofes and proceedings answered not that eyther the author whose insufficiencie is notorious nor the discourse the weakenesse whereof is too too pitifull deserueth any answere but least that the simplicitie of the ignorant who is easily misled with these great shewes might be abused or iustice be by opinions controlled herein also all men may vnderstand the weakenes of the cause of the Consistorie the boldnesse malice and fashood of the Consistorians and such as contend for it and how fit it were that such as are altogether vncapable of reason should be gouerned if not enforced by lawes The author whatsoeuer he pretendeth for colour proposeth to himselfe to proue diuerse thinges First that the Ecclesiasticall gouernement of the Church of England is to be changed for that doth he meane by reformed Secondly That an Eldership should be established among vs as being a gouernement vsed in the ancient Church and commaunded to be continued in all ages and to the end that his reasons may be weighed he craueth disputation by aduised writing Thirdly he mainteineth that the disciplinarian faction hath not offended against the statute of 23. Eliz. c. 2 and that Iohn Vdal was vniustly condemned Fourthly he would declare That the consistoriall patrons are vniustly slaundered with desire of innouation and their doctrine with disloyaltie or disorder and endeuoreth to excuse himselfe for not declaring himselfe nor setting his name to his petition Lastly by diuers Articles and questions he goeth about to bring the Ecclesiasticall state into enuie and hatred That while men are busie in examining their faultes his clients of the new disguised discipline may escape in the darke and without danger vndermine the estate To meete therfore with his malice and to encounter him in al his turnes I doe purpose by Gods grace to shewe First that the gouernement of the Church of England is most conformable to the practise of the gouernment both vnder the lawe and the gospell and hath testimonie of scriptures confirmation of antiquitie and was neuer gainesaid but of late dayes when factious companions and clouters and tinkers and marchants and men of occcupatiō aspired to Church gouernement and that the cauils and proofes brought by the petitioner against it are fond and foolish Secondly that the noueltie vanitie iniustice and inconueniences of the new gouernement are such as cannot stand with any good or well ordered state wherein also the insufficient pleading of the petitioner for the Consistorie shall be refuted thirdly that Iohn Vdall was iustly condemned and that the platformers are iustly charged not onely with breach of diuers lawes very penall but also with sedition and faction and therefore are most mercifully dealt withall that they are nether in greater number nor in other qualitie punished the vaine glosses that are set vpon their factes and opinions shall be there also wiped away in the last part of this treatise such accusations as the libellor hath brought to disgrace the Ecclesiasticall gouernement
4 5. Eliz. c. 1. Ex officio by any Ordinarie to a Clarke the refusall whereof is verie penall In the register in the title Consultation diuers cases are founde where the Iudges ecclesiasticall procceding ex officio is allowed Why then may not ecclesiasticall commissioners proceede Ex officio and minister othes For that which this accuser sayth that for matters of felonie they examine men vpon their othes is false For with these cases they doe not meddle If the articulator can proue they doe why doeth he not declare it seeing he may thereby procure them that hurt which he desireth Article 12 No man shoulde be cited to a spirituall courte to depose therein as witnesse For this is extortion and tort to the partie Fitz. iust ofp. p. 172. Cromp. 219. Answere Neither is any cited ad iurandum or to depose but ad testificandum which neither the author of the Articles nor any else can deny to bee lawfull For neither is this libeller nor any man to bee credited without an othe Somewhat this smatterer hath heard but hee cannot cite it right For both the Register and Fitzherbert the author of this opinion doeth allowe othes in causes testamentarie and matrimoniall And it is the common practise and euer was in all causes and courtes And himselfe confesseth so much in the next accusation But the obiection he cannot hit When hee obiecteth right hee shall haue his answere more at full Now it is sufficiēt to say that which euery lawyer that knoweth any lawe can tell him that seeing by the lawes of England many causes are heard in Ecclesiasticall courtes which cannot bee decided without witnesses the calling of witnesses is necessarie Article 13 No Bishoppe ought to appoynt a man to appeare before him to take an othe ex Officio sauing in matters of marriages and willes Answere Many wayes the ignorance of this man that would gladly shewe his skill in lawe appeareth For wee say not in termes of lawe that a man taketh an othe ex officio but that the Iudge proceeding sometime Ex Officio sometime otherwise doeth minister an othe to the partie Againe the bishop doeth not appoynt men to appeare before him but calleth them by proces of lawe But these are but errors in termes A grosser fault it is that he mistaketh lawe For not whatsoeuer Fitzherbert setteth downe is lawe in this case especially of prohibition For nothing is more ordinarie then to reuerse prohibitions by consultations The meaning of the wordes of Fitzherbert or rather of the Register whence he drewe his writte was That men should not bee called into ecclesiasticall courtes to confirme any contract concerning goods or chattels by othe by which meanes the ecclesiastical court encroched vpon other courtes Onely causes Matrimoniall and Testamentarie in that case for to other it cannot bee extended were excepted That in matter of Tithes and other causes men answered vpon their othes is euident for that the 1 Art Cler. 9. Edw. 2. c. 12. Kings tenants as well as others answered before Ordinaries and were by them also excommunicate for their contumacie In matters of Tithes the 2 27. H. 8. contemners of the ecclesiasticall processe by statute are condemned and may bee forced to obey And in another statute it is decreed That the 3 32. H. 8. Ordinarie may conuent such as withholde Tythes according to to the lawes ecclesiasticall Likewise the ecclesiasticall Iudge may by statute proceede against those that 4 Eliz. c. 2. violate the lawes concerning vniformitie of Common prayer yea Fitzherbert 5 Nou. Natur breu fol. 63. graunteth that an ecclesiasticall Iudge may exact a caution iuratorie before he deliuer a man that is in prison vpon the writte De excommunicato capiendo False it is therefore that this bolde and blinde bayarde sayth That byshops boldlie presume against lawe Nay he and his companions boldly presume both against lawe and common humanitie for both doe they runne into fellonies and treasons and also speake against lawes and defend their doinges and raile against others that gently put them in minde of their faultes Article 14 Morning and Euening prayer should be read euery day throughout the yeere but are not Answere How knoweth hee that Morning and Euening prayer is not said If he had frequented Churches so diligently as he ought to haue done he might haue vnderstood the contrary But where it is not said I thinke he liketh vs not the worse for that For no sort of men I except not the Iesuites doe more bitterly raile against our booke and order of Common prayer then his consorts doe And yet this wil I proue that the worst of those prayers are more Christianlike then their extemporall prayers made of broken sighes and sentences for the most part and full fraught with malice and other passions To say nothing of confusion But suppose prayers were not said euery day let him shew where they are so commanded For the Communion booke commandeth them not so peremptorily to be read as the accuser anoweth but alloweth the Curat to omit them when he is lette either with priuate studie or other necessary busines which exception he hath quite forgotten and left out as for Prayers they be in most places vsed and would be more if they were not by these contentious fellowes despised Article 15 The Curate must tolle a Bell yet doeth not he but the Sexten Answere A bloudie fault and great pitie that the Presbyterie with their bels and bables were not admitted if for nothing else yet to take order that belles might bee tolled The preface to the Communion booke doeth onely will the Curate to doe it or to appoynt one to doe it And so it is in most places And if he did it not yet is he not in fault but the parishioners that against his wil appoynt a Sexten that is not at his commandement This Article tendeth as all the practises of puritanes doe to the disgrace of the Ministery whom they would put to all base offices and yet you my masters of the ministerie both see them and suffer them to abuse you and your function Article 18 The people are to answere the Priest and to say Amen Yet doeth the Clarke answere alone in most places Answere If this Accuser had good matter he would not spare that taketh such paines to finde a knot in a rushe picketh quarrels where no cause is For both it is false which he saith that the people answereth not and were it true yet is it not the bishops or others fault but the peoples that will not attend the prayers and say Amen Percase some are phantasticall persons and condemne our forme of prayers some are phrenetical and vnderstand not more fitte to be prayed for then to pray Article 17 Where there is singing there the lessons should be sung in a plaine tune c. Answere Nothing doeth more displease the puritans then church-musicke and singing yet this accuser
is offended with not singing which he affirmeth to be no small peccadillio So neither singing nor saying pleaseth them What then is best for them Forsooth silence That any doeth offend in this point when hee is put to it he will not be able to iustifie Article 18 The names of the Communicants before they receiue should be signified to the Curate yet this is not regarded in most places Answere That is not the Curats fault but rather of those that should signifie it if any be Let the Communicants therfore signifie their names The curates to please his maship shall be alwayes readie to open their eares which notwithstanding will not make for the libellers aduantage for if his name be brought hee will be vndoubtedly repelled for an vncharitable person vnsit to communicate among Christians Article 19 Notorious lewd persons be admitted to the Communion yet should the Curate repell such Answere If they doe repell such as it is notorious then is this libeller a notorious lyer yea a lyar and slaunderer in print But hee percase counteth those men notorious offenders which any one suspecteth Which if it were true then are most putitans notorious lewde persons that are commonly suspected for such and not without cause For further answere I say that such as by sentence of the Iudge are pronounced culpable which are in deede notorious offenders are repelled and that to repell others were a course full of disorder and iniustice And lastly that hereafter such notorious rayling puritans as doe slaunder religion shall bee better looked vnto and be repelled both from the Communion and all honest mens societie being enemies of learning and scandales of religion Article 20 The Minister shoulde vse the ornaments appointed by King Edwarde Answere And doeth he not so If any doe otherwise it is of the factious sorte that deserueth punishment But saith the libeller the Clarke doeth also weare a surplice As if it followed because the Clarke weareth a surplice that the Minister doeth not All like as if a man should conclude because Giles Wiggington hath some little witte that this libeller hath none The meaning of the lawe is that such ornaments shall be vsed as were appointed by king Edward where other order should not be takē For later lawes abridge the former If then the accuser can shewe that lawes are not herein obserued he shall doe vs great fauour to name the offenders Article 21 In Cathedrall Churches the Communion should be ministredeuery Sunday at the least Answere If often Communions be commendable then is our Church to be preferred before that of Geneua that communicates onely quarterly Better therefore it were for malice to keepe silence then to say that which is nothing Let him if he can detect those that are culpable Article 22 The Godfathers doe not their duetie neither doe Bishops vrge them Answere Let him shewe that Bishops may doe it by lawe and then reproue them for not doing their duetie If it be left to the conscience of Godfathers to doe their dueties why should the Bishops be charged with other mens faultes Forsooth this libeller meaneth to lay all faultes on the Bishops backes I would to God for my part there were no faults but in Bishops so farre am I from enuying any mans puritie But this puritie I feare is but hypocrisie For many puritans mislike Godfathers and are very impure in life and conuersation Article 23 Bishops are commanded to confirme children yet fewe doe it Answere The puritans commonly deride Confirmation albeit a most auncient and Christian ceremonie This fellowe chargeth Bishops with a great fault for omitting it How will these agree Nay how will this companion verifie his assertion being most vntrue But if any bishops doe not confirme children it is because certaine factious persons haue perswaded the people to refuse it and that verie wickedlie not onely fantastically Article 24 Curates doe not instruct seruants and youth vpon holydayes Answere Causeles doeth this accuser barke against Curates seeing he cannot charge any particuler If he can let him call him before his superiors The exercise is good and godly neither doeth any account it tyrannie to instruct the ignorant But sure great presumption it is for yong puritans publiquely to examine graue and discreete men that know more then themselues and indiscretion to vse examination as the disciplinarians would haue it vsed Article 25 None should be admitted to the Communion that cannot say the Catechisme Therefore Curates should examine communicants and seelude them that be wanting in knowledge Answere Can you shewe any Curates that haue not done their dutie herein If you can carrie them before the Ordinarie they craue no fauour In the meane while learne this lesson of me Shewe not your cancred malice against good Ministers There is none but liueth as well as puritans nor any so base that may of a Pettifogger or Scriuano be contemned nor any that is more ignorant in their Catechisme then puritans that neuer enter deeper then the paraphrase of their Creede and pater noster Article 26 Banes should be asked three seueral Sundayes in the open Church yet the Bishops dispence with banes Answere In the booke it is Sundayes and Holy dayes this is therefore his first error The second is that he misliketh dispensations for both by law and customes of this Church and for good causes are they granted Neither doeth the affirmatiue without the negatiue in any lawe take away a custome that may stand with the lawe as in this case The lawe will haue banes three seuerall dayes proclaymed That no dispensation be graunted the lawe hath not Wherefore seeing dispensations are confirmed by lawe and not taken away by this Rubricke let the accuser holde his peace and cease to proclaime his owne follie and to worke the bane of his cause and finally while he would shewe skil in lawe to proue himselfe deuoyde of lawe and reason Article 27 The partie presented to the Bishop should weare a plaine Albe yet this garment is not vsed Answere In the booke of ordering Ministers there is no such garment appointed And if it were yet were it no such disorder as this charitable man maketh it that would haue the bishops thrust out of their liuings yea out of the Church for committing it But suppose Deacons should weare an Albe how is the neglect of it ascribed to Bishops and not rather to the partie that knoweth not his duetie or of new curiositie that can abide none apparell but of the Geneuian fashion would this libeller were a yellow cote it would become him better then an Albe Article 28 The Deacon by part of his office ought to search for the poore sicke and impotent of the parish and intimate their estates to the Curate But now the office is accompted mere spirituall Answere He ought onelie to doe it where he is so appointed which clause this accuser meaning no good trueth cautelously left out That he should only attend the poore and
sicke cannot bee prooued eyther by scriptures or fathers In Geneua the Deaconship is turned into a vaine office of Proctorship for the poore managed by men of base trades Why then doth he accuse others that is guilty himselfe Article 29 The Deacon must reade the Gospell in the day of his ordination putting on a tunicle but this vesture is scarcely knowen at this day Answere The booke of ordeyning of ministers printed Anno 1559. and confirmed by parliament hath no such matter And therfore vnlesse hee can shewe his author for his tunicle let him weare the tunicle together with his foure elbowed iacket himselfe But admit some piece of apparell were omitted in deacons yet is the fault not great nor to bee ascribed to any but to those that commit the same Article 30 The bishops at the ordination of ministers do tell them the weight of their charges and what labour they ought to take yet most of them are neuer resident Answere If they labour not as they shoulde doe let them bee punished If they bee absent for lawfull causes and at times why are they more blamed then the skittish puritanes that notwithstanding their charge are like malecontent and mutinous persons still wandring vp and downe to places where they haue nought to doe rather to trouble the state then to edifie the Church and rather hinder others labours by spreading of false doctrine and nouelties then helpe by teaching faith and maners Article 31 The lawe woulde haue them giue themselues to their function yet many attend ciuill and worldly affaires Answere If ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes bee so repugnant as is pretended why doe ministers gouerne their families or colledges or what hath T. Cartw. to meddle with the charge of his hospitall a matter meere ciuill and wherein he hath done more good then in ecclesiasticall causes For he hath bestirred himselfe so that what by rewardes what by auailes of his hospitall and pinching those that are committed to his charge and what by buying and selling the man is growen fatte and rich Of his ministery wee see no fruit but contention and trouble Percase hee will say hee is no minister But why then doth hee meddle with the ministers office like to him are his followers men verie stirring and busie in all matters of state howsoeuer this man misliketh them therin Contrariwise for subiectes to execute the commaundementes of the prince and to see their ministerie also discharged is commendable and not onely allowable The lawes of God and the lande allowe it Wherefore then shoulde hee maliciously condemne that which hee cannot disprooue Article 32 Bishops only excommunicate and suspend yet by the booke of ordering ministers euery one is to administer the discipline of Christ And Christ hath giuen the keyes equally Answere The lawe is misreported and misinterpreted For the words are that ministers shoulde minister discipline as this Church hath receiued it and so they doe And by discipline is admonition publicke and priuate and preaching and executing the ordinaries sentence vnderstoode That euery minister by law shoulde excommunicate or suspend others equally cannot bee prooued the keyes were giuen to the Church yet euery one doth not vse them equally the priests of the lawe were all partakers of the priesthoode yet might not all doe all things All were not Iudges nor gouernours nor looked to all things But these fellowes would haue an Anabaptistical equallity brought in that such as haue no merite to mount higher may bring downe others lower make them equall to themselues Both the wordes and practise of the lawe make against the libeller besides all this it woulde bee infinitely inconuenient and absurde if such armes as the Church censures were put in euery cockebrayned fellowes handling and such odde fellowes as the puritanes are made gouernours of the Church equall with the best Article 33 The Bishops Chapplaynes and Doctors vse not priuate admonition in their Cures Answere Many things the libeller affirmeth and prooueth nothing So that it should seeme he taketh pleasure in talking and calumniating But suppose they did not folow the course of puritanes in priuate and parlour admonitions paraphrases is not the office of the minister publike not priuate must he as these puritanes do creepe into womens closets or must he put his feete vnder euery marchant mans table their shriue them such admonitions as the office of ministers and lawes require they do vse The course of puritanes in their priuate exercises and paraphrases they take neither to be commaunded by law nor to bee suffred in reason for the manifold abuses of it and much more credite were it for the puritanes if they had neuer begunne their table sermons nor secrete conference and catechizations of other mens wiues and daughters Article 34 The bishops admit not preachers to preach without licence and make vnpreaching ministers and ordeine ministers without Cure and preach out of Apocrypha against law Answere Neither doe they herein against lawe nor reason For albeit ministers haue by their ordination power to announce the worde by reading yet is it not fitte that euery one should expond it but such as haue learning that is knowen by long experience and must bee testified by writing And good it were that many that take vpon them to preach were turned backe to read For they marre and abuse many good texts of scripture fill the peoples eares with nouelties and want discretion to profit them either in faith or maners Secondly they make none vnpreaching ministers but giue euerie one licence to announce the worde by reading and priuate admonition albeit not by publique exposition Neyther if they shoulde make ministers such onely as can breake the worde aright and are answerable to Saint Paules rules should they finde many such among the conceited sort that preach not Gods word but their owne conceits Thirdly it is not vnfit nor against lawe that men learned should be made ministers though presently they haue no cures nor doth the booke of making ministers condemne it For albeit the word congregation bee vsed yet nameth it no speciall congregation Finally it is not vsuall for any to chuse textes out of the Apocryphall Scriptures yet if any do so the offence is not great seeing for maners they are to bee read and hauing confirmation of Canonicall scriptures are to be receiued That which he saith of bishops that they take away letters of orders vpon euery supposed misdemeanour is vntrue For neither doe they offer it nor may they doe it by lawe Article 35 Seldome doe bishops at the time of their consecration vse Coapes and neuer vse they pastorall staues yet both required by law Answere Neyther Coapes nor pastorall staues are by lawe enioyned to bee vsed The booke of ordering ministers printed Anno 1559. shall witnesse with mee that I say trueth yet in mine opinion it were not amisse to vse pastorall staues if for none other cause yet to beate such
mouthed Libellers and enemies of the Ministerie professed doe call honest men it is not materiall I know none marieth but such as haue allowance sufficient of their choyce If they haue not let the offenders be corrected and not innocents be disgraced for others offence why they should be called forward I know not seing none is so forward in marrying as the Puritan sort of whom I knowe none that hath the gift of continencie but would they cease to disgrace others I could for my part be contēt they should vse their libertie prouided alwayes they make not too great post haste nor without regard and consideration of their future wiues qualities leape into sodaine mischiefe Article 44 The clergie people goe not in their habits and square caps Answere What do the Puritan people forsooth they square it out for the most part in new fashiond conceited apparel are all clad in Satin veluet and costly apparel and braue it like people of a new gouernment some for humility sake goe in flat caps others go like clownes in russet clokes well they may for their religion is a russet religion good for none but russet cotes such as fauour populer gouernment fitting none but our rusticall platformers whose maners are rude vnciuill that men go not more orderly this faction is cause which maketh warre against the ministery and by all meanes seeketh to offer them scorne Article 45 The Bishops Officials allow none to be absent from their owne parish vnlesse they will pay a Marke for a licence yet law suffreth men to heare Sermons other where Answere Law restraineth men to their owne parishes but lust would be gadding abroad to see what is done elswhere for which if any officials graunt licence contrary to lawe there is law to correct them but why this man should be so offended with taking money for licēces I see no cause seing his deare friēds yea himselfe too vseth more taking then giuing and considering that Pettifoggers Scriuanoes such as the authors of this booke seeme to be liue by taking take without licence and contrary both to licence and law and haue wonne more by taking then others by long seruice and for all their pretended hypocrisie will neither spend nor loose commoditie for their puritane cause why men should not be suffered to frequent factious sermons there be diuers causes it is the way to faction sectes heresie and tumults and diuers other disorders Article 46 Songs in Churches should be distinct and modest Answere So they are but the Libellers eares were percase so out of tune that he could not iudge when he heard them for how can his eares be in tune whose wits not long since were in so great discord In the opinion of all wise men that can iudge and haue skill our church musicke is distinct modest and graue and farre passing the discordant tunes of Puritans Article 47 None of the Queenes subiectes should call one another hereticke nor scismaticke but we are so called and Puritans too by certaine Libellers Answere Yea and that very iustly too if you mayntaine this Libell and your newe booke of prayers and their most seditious and hereticall pamphlets of T. C. and others neither are they Libellers in so calling you nor doeth the Iniunction protect factious mates but quiet and good subiects such as you will not shew your selues to be rayling and reuelling at Lawes and gouernours in most shamefull sort and therefore disdayne not to be called by your names nor wonder if you be beaten with your owne weapons Article 48 Bishops and their Chapleyns seldome make a legge at the name of Iesus vnlesse it be at the reading of the Gospell nor remember Iesus but when they lustily sweare by Iesus Answere All Puritans vtterly mislike this bowing at the name of Iesus this semypuritan and demychristian misliketh the omitting of it therein condemning all his companions as contumacious lawbreakers and not proouing any matter against his aduersaries for which both one and other haue cause to mislike him but especially for lying and slaundering of Gouernours wherein hee sheweth his full malice and choler in charging them and want of matter in conuincing them The Puritanes speake nothing without protesting doe you not call that swearing no it is forswearing for when they protest deepest then commonly they dissemble most and performe least yea many of these seeme with the Priscilianites to haue litle regarde of othes as appeareth by their examinations If he knew any of his aduersaries that offendeth in swearing I doubt not but they shoulde heare it Article 49 The Queene accompteth them good subiectes that acknowledge her Maiestie to be sole supreme gouernour ouer all her subiect in all her Dominions The Bishops doe not Answere If nothing els were to bee respected but this poynt then were all lesuites and Seminarie men and other traytors good subiectes for they doubt not to giue her the title of sole supreme Gouernour ouer all her subiects but that she hath authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall lawes and iudge in Ecclesiasticall causes and to appoynt Iudges and officers to iudge therein that no other hath power ouer her Maiestie neither Iesuites nor Puritans will confesse therefore vnlesse they acknowledge all the rest of her Maiesties prerogatiues and shewe more obedience to Lawes then hitherto they haue done they can not so easily scape the notes of disloyaltie Article 50 The Bishops haue not punished offendors against Iniunctions but are onely carefull to vrge subscriptions othes ex officio c. Answere If the Bishops haue not done their dueties why doest not thou make thy selfe party and accuse them they stand vpon their defence why commest thou not foorth in thy likenesse to charge them In the meane while take this answere that offences must first bee knowen and then punished and secondly that bishops haue suffered as fewe knowen offences to escape vnpunished as any other officers thirdly that those offences that tend to the ouerthrowe of the State are most narrowly looked vnto and lastly that he is a lewde mate that doeth picke quarrels with others for not executing those Lawes which himselfe doeth mislike As concerning their vrging of subscriptions and conuenting those that are disobedient to law the Bishops haue offended in nothing more then that they haue not bene more peremptorie in vrging them no State nor Gouernours euer suffered such notorious disloyaltie so long vnpunished Article 51 Bishops take extraordinarily for licences to preache contrarie to their owne aduertisements of licentious Preachers no licence is required Answere Shewe who they bee that take so much and who these licencious Preachers bee or els men will esteeme thee a licencious Libeller for mine owne part I knowe none more licencious then thy selfe and thy consortes which with all impunitie speake against Lawes and take to themselues libertie both to liue and beleeue as they list and for taking surpasse all other takers taking both from Church and
nor with his general purpose hauing made this absurd entrance he proceedeth more absurdly his arguments are all drawen from authoritie of late writers a weake kind of reasoning and good for nothing yet as if hee had sayde very much stoutely doth he reuell at Bishoppes Iudges lawes and quarrelth against the state afterward hee gathereth certaine notes of his owne discipline which vnlesse you receiue of his bare word you stop all his glorious proceeding last of all he layeth downe certaine articles and interrogatories It should seeme he hath bene eyther a pettie fogger in law or a clerke in some office or hath bene furnished with these matters by some odde clerke or petie fogger nothing is more simple nor clerkely nor worse beseeming men of learning there is in his writing no good course of words no good frame of sentences no sufficient proofes no order nor sequence of parts His arguments yet are worse then his stile to proue the consistorie and his new conceits of discipline he alledgeth first that the gouernment of Byshops is not so exquisite but that somewhat may bee amended as if it followed because men doo not their dueties or because there are imperfections in men and in proceedings or want of some lawe that the state were to be ouerturned and a newe vncouth and vnruly gouernement by Churchaldermen to be imbraced or els as if a man should say we were to be gouerned by the lawes of Turkes or Iewes because of the faultes of the common lawes nay rather let lawes stand and such Turkish and barbarous conceites of generall innouation bee corrected and faultes of lawes amended Secondly he bringeth in a packe of authorities against Romish bishops as if eyther the ancient Bishops of Rome or the late Bishoppes that preach the Gospell were to be measured by the wickednesse and tyranny of the late Romish Byshops or gouernment were to be taken away because it hath bene abused thirdly he produceth the opinions of Caluin Beza and a packe of others most of them vnlearned and vnknowen as if it were reason to follow them against all antiquitie or as if the gouernement of the Church stood vpon opinion not vpon scripture and ancient lawes and customes Before times these fellowes told vs of a discipline commanded in scriptures this fellow telleth vs of certaine fancies of Caluin Beza and certaine obscure authors newly brought out of corners into light and yet can he not shewe that any of these whome he hath alledged doe in all poynts consent with our platformers to prooue that his partisans offend not against law he alledgeth diuers of their opinions as if it were an excuse for heretikes to say they beleeue well in some few poyntes what punishment then do they deserue that offend both in the opinions alledged and diuers others concealed finally to prooue that his fellowes offending against lawe are not to be punished he sheweth that Bishops also offend against Lawe as if the offence of one were to be an excuse for another or as if a man offend in any small point of law and that not of malice it were lawfull for these fellowes to ouerthrow all lawes and that of selfewill and malicious purpose There is no decorum obserued in the whole discourse the petition is supposed to bee made by the author kneeling before her Maiestie yet doth he often speake to others and quarrell and dispute with those that are absent as if a man making his petition to her Maiestie should suddenly rise vp and quarrell with by standers which not onely is a poynt of absurditie but of the authors old frensie Secondly what is more vnseemely then before the chiefe gouernour to plead as doth the petitioner that all his gouernment is leud antichristian and that his lawes are deuoyde of reason and that iudgementes giuen are vniust and ought to be reuersed and most odiously to raile on the state and gouernours Thirdly seeing this petition is directed to her Maiestie to what ende is the same put in print belike the mans purpose is that so much as the Queene by wisedome shall denie the people by force and furie shall establish which in deede is his drift for the same was neuer presented to her Maiestie but onely to the people Fourthly nothing is more absurde then to handle matters of controuersie by way of supplication seeing he disputeth he should rather haue come in schooles then in court and before lawyers then courtiers Lastly a very vndecent thing it seemeth to me that a man not conuersant in studie of diuinitie should teach diuines that a disordered companion should controllgouernors and lawes that a man lately distracted of his wit should teach law and order neither knowing order nor lawe which course if it may be suffered it is but folly to studie diuinitie or lawe or to maintaine gouernement and a bad incouragement for iudges to do iustice seeing euery ignorant disordered companion shal take on him to control them and to teach lawe to gouerne as it were by reuelation inspiration and fancie what should be the cause that this base fellow should come forth I know not vnlesse this be it that all that were wise foreseeing and eschewing the danger this bedlem writer that neyther foresawe nor sawe any thing being armed with diuers collections of others should say something if for nothing els yet to make shew that they can say somewhat The treatise answereth not to the title for where hee promiseth therein to deliuer a meanes how to compound matters in the whole treatise he doth with all his force endeuour to enkindle warres he rayleth on goueruours and lawes controlleth iudges and goeth about to reuerse iudgements and would if he could ouerthrow all the ecclesiasticall state which sauoureth rather of a humour to fight then to compound and yet is not he the man that must bee the leader of these consistoriall warriours being but a ragazzo fit for nothing but to cary baggage In this his booke hee fighteth no more against vs then against himselfe he sayth hee will neither speake to ouerthrow Bishops nor to erect consistories yet doth he his vttermost malice against Bishops and speaketh what hee can for Consistories and yet nothing to purpose hee professeth hee knoweth not whether part hath better grounde wherein like a simple fellow he not onely confesseth he speaketh of matters he vnderstandeth not but also contrarieth himselfe in denying that hee professeth in the very first entrance he saith that all her Maiesties louing subiectes that loue religion honour her Maiestie and doe desire the good of the Realme doe heartily bewayle the contention of our Church wherin hee pronounceth sentence against himselfe and his consortes as neyther louing ber Maiestie religion nor the state for seeking to enflame this contention by scurrilous libels and interrogatories how can it bee surmised that they doe bewayle this contention do men bewayle that which they doe or doe men seeke peace that against good men throw out their
is against all lawe all practise yea against all reason Therefore euen the malcontent disciplinarians that take away the name giue notwithstanding the authoritie of Bishops to their rulers of Synodes in whome if the same were as they say vnlawfull no reason it should bee continued any little time And further vpon the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denying superioritie to Bishops ouer ministers they doe notwithstanding giue an vnbrideled and absolute authoritie to the Consistories These arguments and others which I haue set downe stand vnanswered that which is sayd against bishops may be most easily and hath often bene answered neither doth this vnlettered fellow bring either new arguments or confirme the olde nay he leaueth all arguments which his fellowes haue brought out of scriptures therein shewing good iudgement for in deede it is absurd to thinke that bishops may be ouerthrowen by scriptures vpon which their authoritie is built I wonder with what face after so many proofes brought in this cause hee durst goe about without arguments to ouerthrowe that which hath such grounde vpon scriptures lawes reasons onely for a shewe he hath brought a number of names of * Pag. 10. 11. counsels fathers Churches and late writers but when the matter shall come to triall it shall be found that they doe all forsake him in this cause and that both they and infinite more then these speake against him I answere therefore first generally that it is no good argument that in this cause is drawen from Daneau Tauergues Perot Chauneton Carpentier or other of their faction Secondly that these counsels and fathers and Churches and learned men which he quoteth haue not oppugned Bishops or their gouernement The canons of the Apostles are placed in forefront of this aray against Bishops Can. 6. c. 80. not that they speake against thē but for that it pleaseth the petitioner to make some shewe in the entrance of his matter of apostolicall authoritie in the sixt Canon there is no mention made of Episcopall iurisdiction so that it may appeare that he looked not on the place It may be he meant the seuenth Canon for there both Bishops Priestes and Deacons are forbidden to meddle with worldly affaires and in the 80 Canon Bishops Priestes are charged not to intrude themselues into publike charges But neither place maketh one word against the superioritie of Bishops ouer Ministers nor their authoritie in ordination excommunication and other Ecclesiastical matters for which they are alledged nay contrariwise they giue ordination 1 Can. 2. 36 of Ministers to Bishops and plainely distinguish 2 c. 1. 2. 40. Bishops and priestes giuing to Bishops both superioritie ouer priests and also the 3 c. 40. 41. disposing of the affaires of the Church that Bishops in the primitiue Church were excluded from ciuil charges the reason was for that the Emperors were yet heathen and therefore without danger of impietie none could deale in office vnder them and in those times the offices about collection of the Emperors rentes were 4 ff de decurionib burdensome and dishonorable and therefore no maruaile if Bishops might not beare them last of all they were subiect to accomptes yet howsoeuer it was the Canons forbid not Bishops to susteine a charge imposed vpon them but ambitiously to seeke such charges generally seculer matters were not forbidden Bishops as may appeare in the same Canons 5 c. 41. so that neither doe these places make against our bishops vnder Christian princes in common wealthes wherein they are subiectes as wel as others and by their authoritie helpe their calling yea and the whole ministerie vnder them and no way hurt it neither doe they fit the petitionners purpose For Bishops by their episcopall office doe claime no ciuil authoritie nor doeth it folowe because Bishops may not beare certeine ciuil offices that therefore they are not to exercise episcopall authoritie as the petitionner doeth insinuate Next to the Apostles Canons as they are called hee citeth the 6 counsell of Carthage 19. c. but there do not appeare any Canons to haue beene made in that counsell so wide is the man from his marke commonly his fellowes vse to alledge the 4 counsell and 18 and 19 Canon yet doe not these canons fit their turne for nothing is there spoken against the office of Bishops either in ordination or contentious iurisdiction onely Bishoppes are forbidden to take on them the execution of testaments which notwithstanding hath 1 Concil Chalced. c. 3. exceptions and to bee common quarrellers in lawe which no man thinketh conuenient neyther canon maketh any thing to the purpose were not this man without discretion he would neuer alledge this counsell against Bishops that so 2 c. 3.27 31.55.68 diuersly confirmeth the authoritie of them and condemneth such 3 c. 57 67. libellers and raylors as the authors of this petition Neyther doth the counsell of Chalcedon decree any thing against the state of Bishoppes the Canons alledged onely forbid them as the puritane Ministers whereof some are grasiers some fermers some malsters doe vse to doe to hire grounds which payd rent and tribute to the Emperor or to deale in ciuil affaires or warfare least therby they should neglect their ministerie a pregnant place against diuers of these counterfeit hypocrites that shaking of their Ministerie and disdeining the base accompt of it trade in vsurie marchandise fermes and other such like occupations giuing ouer themselues to serue mammon This counsel maketh nothing for the cause of Puritans for it establisheth the authoritie of Bishops and Archbishops and condemneth such malitious and factious persons as they are that by 1 c. 17. calumnious accusations conspire the hurt or disgrace of their bishops The Petitioner doth also alledge the 6 counsell of Constantinople yet doe we not in the bookes of counsels finde any of that number nor in any counsell holden at Constantinople any thing against the authoritie or dignitie of bishops it may be he mistooke the 6 counsell of Constantinople for the 6 synode yet doeth not that speake against bishops but rather enacteth diuers 2 Synod 6. ca. 9. 10. cannons against vsurie a practise which Th. Cartw. and W. Ch. and others might doe well not to vse and for the dignitie of bishops many 3 Synod 6. c. 31. 36. 37. places To let vs further vnderstand his ignorance hee quoteth the 3 counsell of Turon whereas there were neuer but two there in neither of them any word sounding against the authoritie of bishops perhaps he meant by names of coūsels to face downe simple men or thinketh it no sinne for the glory of the consistorie to lye I beseech him to shewe vs where this 3 counsel of Turon may be found and then he shall haue further answere Beside the new third counsel of Turon he hath deuised a new counsell also of Macra which course if he hold on I
haue good cause to speake Bernarde 4 De consid ad Eugen. lib. 2. speaketh against the Pope for clayming soueraintie in both swordes which no bishop in England claymeth neither doth any bishop by his episcopall authoritie exercise the materiall swordes as the Pope doeth and therefore as Bernards reasons are good against the Pope so are they not to be vsed against our bishops neither was it euer Bernards meaning to condemne the prerogatiue of bishops allowing the same in so many of his epistles and writings and commending so highly the bishop of Rome notwithstanding his infinite abuses he 5 Serm. 66. in Cantic non est mirum si ordinibus ecclesie deirahunt si mandatis non obediunt bitterly inueigheth against those heretickes which for their apish imitation of the Apostles called themselues Apostolickes because they condemned prelacy and therefore calleth them Stultissimos obstinatissimos Thus the man or at least his partakers haue sought euery corner of the Fathers and yet finde nothing against the prerogatiue of bishops therfore is hee glad to flye to the practise of late churches late writers but the conclusion which he draweth from them is most weake for admit that in Geneua in France Flaunders and other churches they haue not bishops of such quality in all respects as wee haue no more haue other churches such Elders as they of Geneua haue it is sufficient that we haue such bishops as in time past they had at Ierusalem Constantinople Alexandria Antioch Carthage Seuil throughout the world before that the cornercreeping Aldermē crept out of the slime of fond mens inuention that the bishops in reformed churches of Almayne haue episcopal authoritie ouer other ministers in ordination of ministers correction of maners so that they are to be blamed that digresse from all antiquitie yea and later churches not we that agree with al former times and the Almayns for both they the Danes albeit some of them mislike the names and most of them haue taken away the liuings of bishops yet reteine still their authoritie and office in their superintendents generall superintendēts and had done better if also they had reteined the liuings rewards of learning stipends of ministers wherefore let the libeller cease to obiect vnto vs the Heluetian and Dutch and Danish churches for they differ farther from the Geneuians then from vs and the petitioner himselfe 1 Pag. 10. confesseth that they haue authoritie though not so much Of late writers I know none of name that hath condemned our bishops euen the chiefe authors of this innouatiō Caluin and Beza as may appeare by their letters which are to be shewen speake euery where honourably of them Zanchus greatly extolleth that order onely Beza as some say hath written a foolish 2 Entituled The iudgement of a learned man beyond the sea pelting discourse wherein he would proue our bishops to proceed of men as if himselfe were a bishoppe of God and Daneau in that poynt consenteth with him taking himselfe also to be a bishoppe of God and yet the Geneuians when through weakenesse of body sicknesse and age hee coulde not execute the ministerie shut this bishop of God from his liuing and forced him through want to depart out of their Citie Bullinger and Gualter and diuerse learned men of Suitzerland and Germanie haue by letters and writings allowed our bishops yea 1 Histori confess August Melancthon Camerarius Sturmius wished to God they had such in their Countreys neyther did any of these that are named by the libeller euer speake against other then papisticall bishops let the worlde then iudge what honestie or shame was in this companion that alledgeth Luther Melancthon Bucer Caluin Beza Bullinger Zanchus Erastus Gualter and Mounster against our bishops whereof some neuer spake of them others neuer spake of them but with reuerence and none against them and 2 In diuers of his letters to be shewed Beza complaineth of some that drewe his wordes vttered against popish bishops against our bishops If therefore the libeller do not bring forth some other places then these hee hath quoted there is no cause but that euery man shoulde take him for a forger of false writings and an abuser of his reader But suppose Beza or Daneau or some other of that sort shoulde write their pleasures in priuate letters or in their imperious paltrie pamphlets who would not be ashamed to oppose these two or all their headie followers to Ignatius Dionysius Chrysostome Augustine Ambrose Hierome and all antiquitie yea to most writers of late times And if these men that patronise the consistorie which cannot stand with bishops for in deede there is no agreement in gouernement betwixt the rusticall fauni and the muses betweene learned men and men of occupation betweene clownes and schollers if these I say doe not speake against bishops wee may not thinke that bishop Iewell orbishop Elmar or bishop Bollingham or others that haue written in defence of the state haue vttered any thing that soundeth to their disgrace 1 In his Apologie Bishop Iewell expressely defendeth the degree of bishops aboue priestes and good reason for it is the publike doctrine of this Church and those that goe against it make this Church to reuoke a part of their publike confession and doe more harme by their secret trechery then euer did Harding by his open enmitie neyther can there be a greater scandale or dishonour offred to religion or the state then that we should now alter the publike confession of faith made by our Church Iewell saith that the office of prince and bishop is distinct and no man denieth it for no man by the office of bishop challengeth as doth the pope soueraigntie of both swords but if any conclude because bishops ciuil officers are distinct that a bishop shal doe no ciuil office he wil conclude that hee may not looke to his house nor do the office of a subiect nor fight for his country which is a nice point of puritanisme and little better then trechery and by the same reason should ministers be excluded both from gouernement of colledges and hospitals and al offices in the vniuersities whereto our puritanes ambitiously aspire are as great canuasers as any notwithstanding their ministerie or puritanisme Neither can master Nowels words be stretched against bishops for what if Christ would not receiue riches or dominion of the deuil may not a minister receiue a benefit of a Prince or because Christ forbade them to rule as Princes may they do no offices of good subiectes but liue like traitors or like puritanes that liue in open contēpt of lawes if then the petitioner had any conscience he would not alledge Mr. Nowel against bishops whose authority he mainteineth against Dorman and whose resolution for this present gouernement is sufficiently knowen Master Bilson distinguisheth betwixt apostolicall gouernement and princely gouernment but hee
taketh not thereby away apostolical superiority ouer ministers as these manglers of scriptures doe that to build vp one seate of the consistorie haue hewen diuerse scriptures in pieces and racked mens wordes against their meaning neyther in word nor conceit did he euer oppugne the present gouernment Bishop Elmar sometime before hee came abroad into the world supposed the liuings of bishops to bee too great hee knew not then the malice of men nor the state of things now he confesseth therein his ouersight is it not lawfull for him to amend his error especially seeing some men thinke it lawful from knowledge to fall into puritanisme and from a right course to run into error yet do we not vse the benefit of their doubling let them double as much as they wil so they double not with God The like is to be said of bishop Bollingham who if hee erred in speaking against bishops Rochets for against the state I see not where he speaketh yet did hee the same away by repentance but we stand not on mens opinions nor pamphlets nor priuate writings we would once the names of Caluin and Beza and others were laid aside and the cause were examined by scripture and antiquitie which is not partial this T. Cartw. did once professe but now he hath forgotten himselfe would he come backe againe to his old hint he should soone see his owne error if he striue against himselfe no maruell it is if hee striue with others but if he come abroad he must come better furnished with scriptures and reasons Not content to alledge some the libeller ere he passe will needes belye others and among them 1 in his defence of the princes supremacie Doctor Bridges it may bee the consistorie hath giuen him a dispensation to lye for he saith that Doctor Bridges doth iustifie Aerius opinion whereas contrariwise hee saith that albeit Hierome and others did hold that a bishop and priest was one yet was no Aerian whereby it appeareth that hee confesseth Aerius to bee an heretike and denieth others to be Aerians He shamefully likewise belyeth my lorde of Canterburie 2 Pag. 654. lin 54. whom he falsely quoteth maketh to confesse elders for such elders as these men would haue neuer entred into his cōceit only he confesseth that there were ministers in the beginning of the Church that liued in community with bishops which now that the number of Christians is so encreased were not requisite for then should there be infinite nonresidents that he neuer imagined there ought to be elders of the Geneuian making his reasons brought against them doe declare Neyther did the author of the admonition made against the drunken surfet of Martins puritanisme set downe any wordes that import that there was an Eldership vnder the lawe as the libeller affirmeth the wordes are contrary why then should hee imagine that the authors meaning was contrary to his wordes it was saith hee first so set downe admit it were must all compositers errors bee allowed for text I perceiue these fellowes are angrie when a man woulde correct a fault and therefore I feare hee will not amende his fault in lying but I haue heard saith hee that that booke was subscribed by the bishop of Canterburie Lincolne and London as if any thing were more common then vntrueth in the mouthes of puritanes and therefore no maruell if hee haue heard a leasing The author of the remonstrance without any supposall saith plainely Pag. 166. that there neuer were any Church consistorie and therefore what fondnesse is it to suppose him to say that which hee denieth but admitte hee shoulde say if it were in the lawe and Gospell that it were to bee continued yet doth it not followe that it was in the lawe or after for of supposals no direct assertion can bee made vnlesse that which is supposed bee graunted neyther can any man enforce any such conclusion as the libeller imagineth nay hee shall sooner presse the little wit hee hath out of his braynes then gayne such a conclusion for the assumption viz. that the Geneuian Aldermanshippe began vnder the lawe and was practised vnder thè Gospell is but a franticke conceyte in this discrasied mans brayne neyther my lorde of Canterburie sayth it nor any of our side that I knowe Why doeth not the man therefore proue it the reason is euident for that vntrueth cannot be proued let him therefore presse what he can out of the assertions aforesaid he shal sooner wring vergis out of a flint then wring his Consistorie out of scriptures But saith he one Mathew Sutcliffe controlleth both whereunto if he durst haue set to his name I might haue answered that one W. St. and his promptors are deceiued Now I must answere that one certaine worthlesse libeller mistaketh for neither is it true which he auoweth That I protest there was neuer any such gouernement by elders vnder the Gospel yea and such arguments haue I set downe that Th. Cartwr and all the faction haue taken terme to answere neither doe I controwle others that haue trauailed before me in the same argument for all of vs agree that there was neuer any Geneuian Eldership in the world before the erection of it at Geneua and that the Eldership that was in time past was composed of Bishops or of Priestes assistant to the Bishops which were Ministers of the word and sacraments and such as in part in our cathedrall Churches yet continue The third vntrueth is That he saith I suppose if there were Elders vnder the Gospel they were not now necessarie Pag. 213. which the author of the remonstrance affirmeth For I doe not speake of Elders but generally of gouernement conclude most strongly against the platformers That they may not haue their discipline and why forsooth because first it was neuer found in scriptures nor practise and secondly because diuers orders are founde in scripture for externall gouernement which now are out of vse so that both the antecedent being false and consequent nought it is not possible the conclusion should be good but what should I talke of antecedent and consequent with this companion that vnderstandeth neither Logicke nor termes of reason The fourth lye is that I deface forreine Churches writing against the Eldership in Latine make the rent of our Church deeper For I speake in the defence of the state to salue those wounds which these fellowes haue made to pece the rents of our church I neuer speake of forreine churches but honorably neither am I curious in other mens states neither doe I deale with Beza but as with a graue and learned man in this point mistaken destitute in this cause both of wisedomect learning although I haue bene badly requited at his hands againe which course if Beza others would haue taken these contentions that haue troubled our Church woulde neuer haue growen to this height but they would be writing talking against vs yea censuring
vs with their consistoriall presumptiō and yet did we not deale against their churches For that I wrote against the presbyterie I did it in respect that the same was obtruded to our church by a certaine vnlearned bold Italian that I wrote in Latine the cause was the Italians and Bezaes dealing for their presbyterie in Latine and also to let others vnderstād that our cause is such as we are able well to defend against Beza and all consistorials whatsoeuer and therefore seeing we meane not to obtrude our gouernement to them and so professe in our bookes let thē keepe their consistorie to thēselues and make much of it that it fal not to the ground for it is in very weake case Bezaes simple discourse doth yeeld it no comfort If any doe come forth to reply I do protest it is he that maketh the stirre and not I. and therefore for cōmon ease it were best for al to keepe silence but if they meane to prate of the glory of the consistory which our platformers esteeme as an idoll they must expect an answere and let not Beza thinke that his fond disputes against vs in his late three halfe penie pamphlet shall passe for oracles To returne to the libeller I answere that neither is it true that we handle the matter doubtfully for we are all resolued in our positiōs against thē nor that they hold their opinions resolutely for neither concerning the institution partes authoritie nor office of their consistorie doe any two of them agree neither doth it seeme probable that euer they wil agree they are at such contention among themselues for neither doe they knowe what they would haue nor wherefore Secondly I say that this argument is most simple and mishapen for suppose that two or three should handle the cause of the Church simplie it were no reason for the ignorance and simple dealing of two or three that the Chuch should be ouerturned and that new lawes and lordings shoulde come in place yet this is his wise conclusion because all doe not agree in all pointes that the matter must be called in question and bishops be displaced that certaine coate cardes in short ierkins may come in place to rule all either by their diuine inspiration or else according as Th. Cartw. the oracle of discipline shall determine which reason if it were admitted then howsoeuer we reteine the present gouernement yet shall wee for euer be discharged of the consistorie the patrons whereof contrarie one another most absurdly in infinit places write most irresolutely and strangely Lastly to bring the ecclesiastical state into question He alledgeth first that our lawes expect a further reformation that such as haue written against papistes puritans haue found imperfectiōs in our gouernemēt Which if he meane in the frame of our discipline or in respect that we haue bishops or want consistories he is abused they neither expect such a reformatiō nor auow any such thing by a certaine statute of K. Henry 8 power was giuen to 32 persons to gather into one body such lawes ecclesiastical as were nether repugnant to the lawes of the realme nor prerogatiue royall That they had as the petitioner saith authoritie to correct good lawes or to make new lawes is the first vntrueth The second vn trueth is That D. Cranmer other learned men did collecte the lawes into one booke for the booke that came forth with the title of Correctio legum Angliae was gathered not by D. Cranmer but by D. Haddon and that very simply without iudgemēt insomuch as al men of iudgemēt disliked it afterward himselfe also was ashamed of it nay contrary to the authoritie giuen him by statute he tooke vpon him not to gather lawes together but to gather a packe of new fancies together and to make new lawes coontrarie to the Ecclesiasticall lawes of the realme yea contrarie to equitie and reason as I shall iustifie if any will challenge me for it The lawes of nursing of children and marriages will verifie all that I say yea and his owne testimonie giuen of it Last of all the lawe whereby this collection of lawes was authorised is now repealed and not necessarie For albeit all doe not yet some knowe what is lawe but suppose ecclesiastical lawes that are in force should begathered together doeth it therefore followe that ecclesiasticall lawes must be all changed howsoeuer it is let not the aldermen bragge of these lawes for therein the authoritie of Bishops is confirmed churchaldermen not so much as mentioned they must therefore looke in some other place for in this booke their Consistorial conceites are not to be found In the booke of Common prayer there is a Commination prescribed to be vsed vntil an order of discipline practised in the primitiue Church should be restored But what maketh that for the establishment of the consistoriall discipline which was neither in the primitie Church nor in the cogitation of the authors of that booke the meaning of the booke is onely that the commination there mentioned shoulde be vsed vntil such time as in the time of Lent offenders might be brought to humble themselues as they did in the primitiue Church and that more fauour might be giuen to the execution of ecclesiastical lawes which is that discipline which they desire these felowes withstand and therefore hereafter I thinke wil not call for discipline for if the same were once executed then would not euery contentious person degorge his malice against lawe nor libellers and scismatickes be suffered to declaime against the state nor euery vnlearned mate be suffered to preach false doctrine and reuell at all antiquitie Neither doeth it followe because in the ordination of Mininisters it is saide take thou authoritie to preach the worde of God that euery Minister is apointed a preacher and that none are to be appointed Ministers but such as can preach which is that they desire And this libeller affirmeth for the exception which doth abbridge the lawe is 1 This practise is condemned by the law inciuile est ff de legebus cautelously and malitiously left out wherein he sheweth that his cause cannot stand but by forging and forcing the wordes are Take thou authoritie to preach where thou shalt be so appointed These fellowes disdaine appointmēt would runne before they be sent but vnlesse many had more learning and discretion it were better that some of those that take on them to preach were set to reade and such as runne so fast were made to sit still In Flaunders according to the rules of this discipline they would needes at the first haue euery one to preach but when they sawe the great inconuenience that came of it they put them to reade Caluins homilies on Iob. but suppose that in the point of discipline of Lent or in the number and qualities of preachers we haue not that we desire doeth it therefore followe that the Ecclesiasticall state
must be ruinated and al lawes abolished that the confusion of the Consistorie barbarisme of this new discipline may triumph ouer the church In France and Scotland they want much of that discipline they desire nay the Ministers want meanes pore men to mainteine thēselues and their families yea the Church wanteth sufficient and learned ministers and is glad to vse the ministerie of boyes and vnlearned youthes wanting all thinges saue boldnes yet they will not say that for these disorders or want of their desires it is reason that the ministerie and their aldermen should be changed and all ouerthrowen The 2 1. Eliz. 2. Statutes giue power to her Maiestie and her ecclesiasticall commissioners to appoint orders for the ornaments of the Church doth it therefore follow that surplesses and other ceremonies are to be abolished By like reason a man may couclude that all lawes are entended to be taken away because the prince and parliament haue authoritie so to doe a reason well beseeming such sencelesse felowes as vnderstand no reason for nether is the consequent good a posse adesse nor if the conclusion were granted would this man obtaine his desire concerning his consistorial discipline for albeit alteration be made in the ministers apparel yet may the same be made the state standing and the consistorie falling to dust so that if he looke for no other alteration then that which is entended by our lawes he his consistorie may goe and consider vpon some better reasons In the meane while hee saith that some of our chiefe defendors of religion against the papists confesse That diuers abuses in ceremonies and discipline were tollerated among vs the church yeelding to the infirmitie of the weake which were to be altered when people grewe to riper knowledge Wherein as in other things he dealeth falsely for neither is it true that 1 Fulke retent pag. 98. Doctor Fulke saith That our ceremonies or discipline is to be altered nor is he though a most learned man one of our chiefe defendors But suppose it were granted that he then thought that some alteration in ceremonies and discipline were to be admitted doth it therefore followe that the church must be spoyled bishops and ecclesiastical persons put frō their charges and a sort of hungrie cormorants brought into gouernement againe suppose this one man in his youth were of some strange conceite cōcerning the euerlasting blessed consistorie yet doth not one make a number where then be the rest forsooth in the intention of the libeller that is now hatching of newe heresies Can. 20. and fooleries But saith hee the bishops confesse in their canons that non residencie is a filthie thing and diuers confesse that lay men should not meddle with excommunication and that diuers lewde and vnlearned Ministers haue entered into the Church which were it supposed to be true yet addeth nothing to the cause of the consistorie for we deny not that men be men that there be faults in the execution of lawes therefore such as offend are to be punished not as this discrasied disputor would cōclude al lawes to be abolished a new gouernmēt to be erected in the law we denie that there is eyther impietie or abuse in men we doe not deny nay wee wish that such as giue scandale were remoued that by their defaults the commō cause might not be hurt if the consistorial faction could cleare themseluelues of impietie abuse in their gouernmēt it would be better for thē but they must thinke that there are faultes among them aswel as among others that they are no angels but men yea and many very odde men and men made of very strange humors Master D. Cosin confesseth that the punishment of adulterie is too milde and others be of his opinion for we do not say that euery point of lawe is so perfect or that things can be so stable that there can be nothing added or detracted if they should say so of their consistorie as some men douteth not they should but make a great leasing as is euident by the particulers of their gouernment what then will the libeller conclude of this our opinion doth he thinke that his consistorial discipline must come in place if he do he is abused for the imperfections impieties iniustice thereof is to to notorious That in the consecratiō of bishops the pastoral staffe laying on of the bible is cōmanded by law to be vsed is one of the libellers lewd vntrueths for no such thing is foūd in the booke of ordeining of ministers neither doth any other lawe commande any such matter but suppose it were cōmanded the same were omitted were it reason as this libeller auoweth because the archbishop vnto whose discretion many things are referred by lawe omitteth some ceremonie that therefore euery contentious companion should breake all orders let this be put among the cōclusiōs of discipline or rather disorder for such in deed is this discipline a scholler would rather haue cōcluded that he ought to be forced to obserue law thē that others because he breaketh law in one point should take occasion to breake law in all to cōclude his vnsauery tale against the ecclesiastical gouernment he saith that a 1 Aduertisement to the Church of England c. lerned man friend to the bishops noteth as abuses their vrging of subscriptiō their othes ex officio their excōmunicatiō for trifles and easie silencing of ministers wherein he saith not amisse concerning the gentlemans learning for in deed he is both graue learned now vnderstandeth and hath learned that neither in subscription nor examination of parties vpon their othes ecclesiasticall iudges doe any thing against either lawes of God or men or reason nor that any is excommunicate for trifles or minister silenced but for good cause and by his owne default nor that subscription is a new deuise being vsed in most ancient counsels and with great rigour exacted at Geneua and in all France which I would also haue the libeller to learne and also to speake the trueth and to deale honestly for no man is excommunicate in ecclesiastical courts but for 1 Quo minor culpa co maior contumacia Beza aduers Erast contumacie neither is any put to silence but such as shew themselues rebellious but what if some abuse were would not reason require that the abuse should rather be taken away then that there should be made a dangerous innouation in state these things considered I referre to euery mans iudgement what maner of disputor this felow is that either speaketh no trueth or els alledgeth such matters as make not to the purpose that the fathers or counsels yea or late writers of name speake against such Bishops as we haue is vntrue that some malcontents haue declaymed against the state is not denied that there are abuses in execution of lawe therefore our lawes to be abolished and the consistorie to be
established doth not follow Wherefore vnlesse the author his partakers haue better supply of reasons then he hath brought here there is no cause he should desire conference or disputation If he desire to shew his skil in writing why doth he not take those bookes that haue bene written in this argument in hand and confute thē frō point to point why doth not T. Cartw. answere in the defence of his consistorie If he say that imprisonment hath hitherto bene an hinderance vnto him yet will not that excuse serue the rest that were neuer in prison why doe not W. Tr. Will. Ch. D. Sp. and others confirme their demonstrations of discipline wherein all their reasons stand confuted hauing so much worke to doe why shoulde he desire more belike this petition was made to bragge men downe but if he thinke he can do it he deceiueth himselfe for as farre as her Maiestie and lawes will permit they shall find a number readie in all sortes to encounter them but the libellers meaning is not to dispute as I thinke for no man hath worse grace in disputing nor more simple facultie in writing by hiding his head he seemeth rather to be ready to flye then fight his talke therefore of aduised writings is idle for both T. Cartw. and he hath written many things vnaduisedly and both flye the hammering of their cause only his purpose is to slander the state by libels to lurke in corners to haue all ecclesiasticall lawes and gouernement left without defence so that euery man might speake against them without eyther feare of punishment or controlment which neyther is good nor commendable for it would be most absurde if 3 or 4 difformed platformers should be suffered to dispute in schooles that her Maiesties authoritie is vnlawfull that our lawes and gouernement is wicked that the state is to be changed As for the course that Doctor Rainolaes vsed against Hart it was lawfull he being thereto authorised percase fitting for him might better be suffred being in poynts of religion resolued then in gouernement doubted of yet was it long and without effect but this course of priuate conference by writing which the libeller desireth in this cause is leude being against her Maiestie the lawes and state it would bee a way to rebellion it would make more contention it would bee infinite tedious and to no purpose the godly and Christian Emperors of Rome were of a contrary mind to this libeller for in diuerse expresse lawes they vpon great penalties forbid any to call in question the confession of faith of the Church 1 Cod. de sum trinit fid cath forbidding vt nemode capublicè contendere audeat neither doth the 2 Admonit de de lib. concord author of the admonition to the Churches of Saxonye allowe any such course as the libeller desireth nay his desire is that matters may bee discussed in some synode of learned men what shame then is it to deuise leude meanes to trouble the Church and falsly to impute them to those that neuer vsed them nor thought them conuenient the libeller therefore may do well hereafter to leaue to the wisedome of her Maiestie and the rest of the gouernors of the Church common wealth the composing of matters which is best wrought by good lawes and sharpe punishment that such as will not be answered with reason may like dizards bee corrected with rods wherein if he thinke himselfe dealt withall vniustly let him come forth when he will eyther in aduised or vnaduised writing his cause shal be prooued wicked and his consortes facts auowed punishable CAP. II. That there neuer was any gouernment by Church aldermen or supposed Ecclesiasticall Consistorie eyther vnder the lawe or in the Apostles times or after nor can without great iniurie to the Church of England to the Magistrates and others be admitted ALthough this positiō hath bene so fully 1 In the booke de presbyterio proued that neither T. Cartw. nor his schollers nor the whole packe of our aduersaries haue as yet made answere yet because the booke where the discourse is cōteined is in latine which percase thou vnderstandest not the argumēts lie dispersed so that without difficulty they cannot be gathered I wil here make a briefe of thē So shalt thou see what a cleare trueth this wise disputer thinketh to batter with vaine shew of mens opinions and be better resolued of the notorious vanitie of the consistoriall discipline That the Iewes had no meere ecclesiasticall consistory distinct frō the benches that handled ciuil causes these reasons may ascerteine vs. First there is no place of scripture where the institution of it may be found Those iudges that are mentioned Exod. 18 Deut. 17 are of an other sort for they heard all ciuil causes yea causes of blood inflicted ciuil punishmēts vpon offenders Those that are founde in the 11 of Numbers were of the princes counsel And other sorts of Collegiat Elders and Iudges are none found Let them shew them if they can the place of Leuiticus toucheth onely priestes in particuler and matters concerning their only office Further there appeareth no cōmission to haue bene giuē to any bēch of Iudges to determine ecclesiastical causes seuerally neither are there any lawes prescribed in Gods word to direct them by so that if any Iudged in such causes they proceeded both without authority and also direction which were very absurd to thinke for if God had appointed any such order of Iudges hee would no doubt haue giuen them authoritie and directions There appeareth not the lest step of any act of any such eccle siastical cōsistory through the whole scriptures or stories of the Iewes there is no memory found of thē in the time of Moses nothing vnder the iudges or kings or in the decay of the Iewish state not so much as the Sanedrin that condēned Christ to death is any precedent of the ecclesiastical cōsistorie whatsoeuer Beza can say to the cōtrary for it was the only remainder of the Iewish pollicy succeeded in the place of the counsell Numbers 11 and of the Iudges appointed Deut. 17 as is apparent by examination of the authority and acts of it All that authority which this ecclesiastical consistory is supposed to haue was either in thepriests or princes The princes in the time of Moses of the iudges kings made lawes and gaue souereign directiōs The priests iudged of things cleane vncleane executed caused al ecclesiasticall orders to be obserued 2. Chron. 19. exod 18. The priests Leuites appointed by the prince iudged of right wrong consecrated others to the functions of priesthood where was thē the ecclesiastical chimerical consistory all this while or how could it be supposed that others would encroch vpō the priestsoffice being debarred by Gods law not being mentioned in scripture or histories Neither are the ecclesiastical consistories commended for wel doing
such authors argumēts as these fellowes as yet delay to answere As for Daneau and certaine pety compagnions defenders thereof their authority is of no weight speaking against such antiquitie and consent and reason The Libeller would also haue the ecclesiasticall state made odious for their misgouernment a very malitious and insufficient course for suppose that 3 or 4 should doe against lawe is it reason that law should be taken away or that many should suffer for a few mens faults how much more vnreasonable is it that the same should bee oppressed for supposed misgouernment That articles are ministred to parties conuented in law and subscription required to lawes is most consonant to lawes neither is any thing in the lawes of England or the statute 25. Henr. 8.19 there to the contrary The Libeller seemeth not to vnderstand himselfe nor others when hee talketh of bishops deuising articles and subscriptions and publishing them in their owne names for there can not be deuised a more absurde kinde of speach Subscriptions are required of others and not published and articles are obiected as priuate meanes to bolt out trueth not as lawes to be practised A course vsuall in all courts of chancery eschecker starrechamber but what reason had this fellowe to obiect to bishops that which they doe not when Th. Cartw. and his 2 At Warwicke Cambridge London c. the actes thereof are euidence sufficient fellowes contrary to the statutes and lawes of the Realme assembled in secrete manner made lawes and subscribed them and published them among themselues and yet are not punished for it They say that bishops appoynting speciall prayers vpon occasion of the inuasion of the Spaniards and other speciall causes doe contrary to that which they require in others but they mistake for those offend not that in euery point of the Communion booke obserue not strict order which the booke in some case aloweth but such malitious felowes as of malitiousnes refuse it and contemptuously oppugne it Neither is the vse of speciall prayers vpon occasion contrary to the vse of the booke of common prayer subscribed vnto with exclusion of all other orders of common prayers for both may stand together Neither did Byshops any thing in this behalfe without her Maiesties speciall commandement But these fellowes are of those that allow not her Maiesties godly orders nor any thing done by Gouernors nor any prayers but fond loose vaine and absurd babbling oraisons of Puritans and seeme to be sory that any should pray against the Spaniards They thinke also and the Libeller affirmeth that it is as lawfull for contentious persons to refuse the surples as for Byshops not to vse pastorall staues But it is most absurde so to say the vse of the surples being consirmed by law the vse of the pastorall staues not being required by lawe or custome But were pastorall staues enioyned by lawe is this a good reason because Bishops offend that euery lawlesse compagnion should passe without controlment That Cawdry was punished by order of lawe is apparant for that the statute doeth authorize the high Commissioners to proceede according to their Commission If any fault were therein cōmitted it was that he was vsed with so 1 His cause was almost two yeeres in handling his conformitie continually being exspected much lenitie Neuer was any more obstinate nor could any man haue more fauor especially without desert for neither had he learning nor other good qualitie nor was any more factious That felonies were examined before the high Commissioners Ec-Ecclesiasticall is a vaine cauill neither doeth it follow because vpon examinations of matters fellonious libels are found out that they proceede to the cognition and determining of felonies Neither do the Ecclesiastical Iudges contray to law either in citations or ministring othes in causes ex officio or punishing lewde factious perturbers of the state If this felow doe maintaine the contrary let him leaue his idle quotations and set downe the wordes of law enforce them by argument to his purpose Otherwise all men may see he goeth about rather to calumniate good men then to iustifie any accusation against his aduersaries If he prooue nothing let him be ashamed to cal his factious compagnions seekers of reformation their libels and friuolous pamphlets bookes of reformation and cease to impugne her Maiesties lawes sentence of Iudges against Iohn Vdall whose fact no man can defend but such as maintaine sedition faction nor praise but such as are enamored of senceles vnlearned hypocrites let him cease to charge the Bishops with seeking his life for they are not his parties nay next to her Maiestie he is to thanke some Bishops for his life for if they had bin as he saith nay if some had not entreated for him percase he had bin hanged all this controuersie taken vp and ended If he cease not percase the world will thinke that Vdall deserued rather more seueritie then is now shewed to him and that the libellers bolde demeanour may procure him to haue iustice for his foolish prating rather then fauour for any wittie reasoning Hitherto all the Libellers dispute is without sequele for admit some one or more shoulde teache falsely or doe against lawe yet is it no reason that euery base compagnion should with open mouth rayle against her Maiesties gouernement and Lawes and call them Antichristian and speake against the whole cleargie yea against Iudges and all that fauour the present gouernment Let those that haue taught falsely be refuted and those that haue done leudly bee punished That the state should be dissolued for the misgouernment of particulars no reason will admit That the platformers offer their liues to prooue their discipline which the libeller alledgeth to excuse thē is a sencelesse reason for no traytors nor felōs deale in any cause that they vndertake but they offer and venture their liues for it yea and Iacke Strawe Hacket offred their liues to prooue their reformation whereas these fellowes contrariwise are very loath to loose liues lands or goods for their discipline and loose nothing but with much grumbling and repining and come farre behinde the Iesuites and Papists in that poynt And so simple is their proofe that if they bee wise they will not venture any thing vpon it for the demonstrations of discipline stande confuted without replye and all their presbyteriall imaginations rest beaten without answere neyther is any argument in all T. C. his great confused Chaos of replyes left vntouched His multiplicitie of wordes wee leaue to factious Puritans that speake ordinarily without sence or matter to play withall To excuse his fellowes silence the Libeller pretendeth want of libertie Printers which cannot iustly be alledged for how can they want printers hauing Waldgraue in Scotland and others at Geneua Middleburg Leyden at commaundement beside their priuate presses Or how can they pretend want of liberty seeing none haue bene long imprisoned and many
came neuer in prison That which the libeller here inserteth againe of other churches whome hee would haue vs to conforme our selues vnto he would neuer haue mentioned if he had vnderstood the grounds of his owne discipline for them selues say that all 1 Discipline de l'esglise Francoise Churches be aequall and it is apparant that euery christian realme and Church is to be gouerned by her owne lawes but these bee the fellowes that would translate the Popedome to Geneua and haue vs fetch lawes from new Rome Seeing then that Iohn Vdall and his compagnions haue mainteined a lewde and fond gouernment neuer heard of in antiquitie and by wicked forgery and lyes haue gone about to disgrace the present state and the gouernours and haue rayled against her Maiestie and lawes and that the Libellers defence is most friuolous it can not bee denyed that they haue written maliciously to diffame her Maiestie And good is were they had stayed in writing but they would not be ruled for T. Cartw. Ioh. Vdall and others were acquainted but too well with Hackets conspiracy His third exception against Iohn Vdals condemnation is for that he wrote not against her Maiesties person But the same is very friuolous for the Maiestie of a prince consisteth in his power lawes gouernement and not in his particuler person or priuate qualities or behauiour Neither are the papists punished for speaking against her person but speaking against her supremacie and lawes Therefore seeing hee confesseth he wrote against her lawes and gouernement hee must also confesse that hee offended against the statute that made it felonie to write malitious diffamatory matters against her Maiesty The preamble declareth as much for that the same pretēdeth that certain persons euil affected to her Maiesty should be suppressed In which number these that would disanul her gouernment and would bring her in subiection to Hackets prophets or the prophetical consistory are especially to be reckoned it was the special meaning of the parliament that the malepartnesse both of papists puritans should be repressed as some there present in parliament do witnesse Neither is it material that penal lawes are of strict interpretation for expound it as strict as you wil. it cannot bee but those that diffame her Maiesty any way either in person or gouernment must fal within the compasse of the statute That which is brought of the statute of 13. Eliz. c. 1. and 1. 2. of Mary 3. is idle talke and concludeth nothing neither is it true that those that account her Maiesties religion lawes heretical and schismatical are without the compasse of the statute that maketh it treason to call her Maiesty schismatike heretike fond likewise it is that he talketh of stealing of horses and contrary to his purpose Seeing hee mainteineth a cōpany of asses that would encroch vpon her Maiesties gouernment steale away thé hearts of her people But saith he her Maiestie is a body politike in fiction which is vntrue for shee is in trueth a politike bodie That is hath a resemblance of a body truly But were she not a politike body at all should it be lawfull to diffame her lawes and gouernement This exception therefore is beside the lawe for be she body politike or no if her Maiestie be diffamed then is an offence committed against that statute Againe he obiecteth that if it be a diffamation of her Maiestie to speake against her ecclesiasticall lawes they should also diffame her Maiesty that speake against the eldership which is an argument like to the resolutions of the eldership that is senceles foppish for admit her Maiesty tollerate the french Church yet doth she not confirme their french lawes no more then they of Geneua confirmed the orders of the English Church at Geneua nor do other confirme cōtrary religions which for some occasions they tollerate so that to speake against the absurd gouernement of that 1 In king Edwards dayes the Churches of strangers were subiect to their superintendents in this Queenes time to the bishops of Canterbury and London against whom while vnkindly they spurne they shewe themselues vngratefull not only vnmindfull of her Maiesties benefits company that contrary to law and couenant haue exempted themselues from the bishops gouernment and erected synodes is to speake in defence of her Maiesties lawes and not against them whereas these fellowes offend in direct oppugning all her Maiesties ecclesiasticall gouernment Sixtly he inferreth because it is not treason to kill bishops or other subiects nor felonie to write or to speake against bishops gouernment that therefore her Maiestie is not diffamed when they are diffamed A reason rather to kill the libellers cause when al men see his malice and ignorance then to hurt others for no man saith her Maiestie is diffamed because libels are writtē against bishops or others but because the same libels doe touch her maiesties gouernment lawes and that not in one or two points but in the very whole body gouernement ecclesiastical of her maiestie and that in most disordered maner and that the authors therof are therefore punished for perturbing the state not for their fond opinions of discipline Neither doth the libellers friuolous talke of politike mēbers or of diffaming the Dukes of Saxony or high Almaine pertaine to this purpose The seditious bookes of the disciplinarian faction haue bene intended against her maiestie nor the Dukes of Saxony or kings of Denmarke albeit they touch them in some sort that maintaine the superiotity of bishops also He saith also that the intention of the parliament was not to protect bishops as if they meant not to maintain the lawes state But admit it be true yet it maketh neither hoat nor colde to this purpose for these seditious fellowes are not condēned for speaking against bishops but for that arguing against them and the ecclesiastical state they proceede in such violent sort that they neither spare her maiesties honor nor her gouernment in ecclesiastical causes that the meaning of the parliament was to represse the malice of puritanes is most certaine for it was expresly mentioned at the time of making the act by diuers of the house and therefore iustly are they to be punished by that statute Further he taketh exception to certain canōs in vse as he supposeth as that womē may not sue their husbands for adultery c. that spiritual kinred hindreth mariage others concerning excōmunication fasting therefore concludeth that if it be lawful for some to find faults with thē yet do not diffame her maiestie that I. Vd. diffamed not her maiestie but both his reason is naught his iudgemēt in law simple for albeit men are not accoūted diffamers of her maiesty that reprehēd some law with modestie yet can no man cal her maiesties gouernmēt antichristian nor raile against her lawes gouernment as idolatrous superstitious without diffamation of her maiestie Nor is the sufferance of
contra tyrannos whom many affirme to bee Beza or Hotoman doth giue power to the subiectes not onely to resist but also to depose and kill the prince if he oppugne Gods lawes and religion whereof they make their discipline a glorious part That this was the opinion of them of Geneua is apparant by the wordes of 4 In an Epistle sent from Die p. hist scotl Knoxe who not onely allowed the doctrine but put it in fragrant practise in Scotland Neyther may we thinke that our platformers haue dissented from their masters Fenner in his booke of diuinitie which Th. Cartw. so well liketh that hee calleth the doctrine of it the vndubitable rules of heauenly Canaan 5 Theolog. Fen p. 186. saith that in euery common wealth there ought to be by the law of God certaine Ephori or magistrates which ought to haue as in Sparta they had authoritie not onely to ouerrule but also to depose the prince According to their doctrine they haue proceeded in writing speaking doing Martin most shamefully rayleth at the present gouernement and wisheth 1 Epitome of Martin that the parliament woulde bring in the eldership notwithstanding her Maiesties resisting it viz. by a rebellion They made diuerse meetings they inueyghed against the state in their publike and priuate speeches in the ende they procured throughout the Realme certayne subscriptions themselues bragged of a hundred thousande handes In playne tearmes they talked of 2 Wight massacring of their aduersaries And Snape in one of his letters sayeth what will you say if wee ouethrowe the Bishops and that gouernement in one day Their further malice appeareth in the Epistle before their leude demonstrations of discipline when all things were readie out startes Hackets two prophetes to mooue the people to rebellion that what they coulde not haue by intreatie they might winne by treason and rebellion That they intended the deliuerie of certaine factious persons committed to prison and to erect the presbyteries and to suppresse the gouernours and lawes their letters examinations and writings doe declare And yet forsooth this ignorant fellowe holdeth thar they neuer went about to mooue any stirre or rebellion percase hee thought these matters had not bene knowen Seuenthly he obiecteth further that if his clientes intende rebellion then the lawes also and bishops doe intende rebellion for that they expect likewise further reformation But the case is vnlike Good men desire reformation of manners by execution of good lawes and supplie of imperfections They stand for the state they withstand all innouations they proceede orderly These fellowes contrariwise seeke the ouerthrowe of infinite lawes of infinite officers and that by reuelling and disorder they seeke the establishment of an vncouth and vnknowen gouernement by faction and conspiracie odious to all states and good men Neyther can hee shroud his clyents vnder master Nowels authoritie for they want much of his learning and honestie and farre diuerse is that eldership hee meaneth from this packe of elders that they desire Neither because printers sell popish bookes by which some are mooued to discontentment doth it follow that therefore it is lawful to mooue discontentment for neyther may they sell them but to men knowen and licenced without punishment nor are all popish bookes of one sort As for Doctor Percy I thinke he doth not set foorth newe lawes nor newe common wealthes but for ease and introduction of students doth gather a summe of all lawes in force but the libellers furious mates would burne them and vtterly ouerthrow law that we might depend vpon the variable oracles of the presbyterie which he seeketh to erect Eightly hee addeth that many doe maintaine papistes and traitors and yet doe not mooue discontentment vnto which I am content that hee maketh his clyentes like for I doe not knowe any in England that hath procured the discharge of more recusants and that not gratis or more holpen them then certaine capitall and principall puritanes The libeller knoweth whome I meane The exception is friuolous and false for neyther are they to bee allowed that maintayne papistes nor puritanes or that procure their discharge Nor may we thinke but that they that maintaine them meane no good to the state and therefore let the gentle dunse aduise hereafter what hee sayeth and not disgrace his best friendes nor lye to no purpose nor benefite of his cause And finally let him not say our argumentes are nought vnlesse hee reply better hitherto hee hath sweate and sayde nothing yea and when hee hath sweate out all his wit yet can he not answere any one title of our reasons The reason that hee setteth downe is his owne reason and is senceles in deed and proceedeth from a man voyd of wisedome learning and honestie But the same set downe in good tearmes will make him in deede ashamed but not as he saith to answere it but because hee cannot answere it No though he professe to speake for the innocent He should haue sayd in the cause of the dumbe for so are the wordes of T. C. his masters text But his clyentes they haue spoken too much and wish themselues they had bene dumbe Now albeit they be not mute yet he taketh them to be innocent and that in his opinion Is not this a worthy fellow thinke you that opposeth his fond and loose opinion against the euidence of witnesses verdict of the iurie sentence of the iudge But what shoulde we looke for other at these mens handes whose braue consistorie and all their learning standeth on 3 or 4 mens opinions But let vs heare what he bringeth to answere our obiections and for discharge of his clyentes that stand at the barre He sayth that Martin where he threatneth that Doctor Bridges shall haue xx fistes about his eares meaneth that many shall write against him A goodly comment As if puritanes wrote with fists rather then fingers which may very well bee for their writing is seditious rude and vnciuill To prooue that Martin meaneth so he alledgeth first that Martin is no Atheist nor papist But there is great doubt of papisme and flat proofe of atheisme for who scoffeth at religion but Atheists and peruerteth scriptures in scorne but such as beleeue no God Secondly he saith xx is too few to make a rebellion But the patch might vnderstād that one is inough to begin a mutinie And that if D. Bridges shall haue xx fistes against him their meaning is that others shall haue many more about them for I thinke their quarrell is not onely against D. Bridges In the ende the libeller seeing his cause desperate saith that hanging is too good for Martin which I yeelde vnto and assigne the libeller for his paynes to be the executioner And thus the noble Martin viz. I. Penry I. Vd. I. F. all Iohns and I. Thr. that all concurred in making of Martin must by sentence of the libeller if they had any euill purpose goe to the gybet to feede Rauens That
of the belfray take a rope for his paynes Hee belyeth Doctor Bridges shamefully for hee maketh him to say that a Priest may haue a moderate lordly iurisdiction ouer all the Lordes allotment where in trueth hee doeth not so much as mention Lordly iurisdiction but superioritie and that ouer the Cleargie in seuerall Congregations and not in the whole Church Therefore let him make proofe how this superioritie or maintayning of Churchliuings in their proper state can bee drawen to prooue that such as defende the state diffame the Queene or seeeke to mooue insurrection If not let him remember that both hee forgeth and runneth from his purpose like a babbling discourser wandring in a sea of wordes without compasse of style or discretion Likewise hee fableth that Doctor Bancroft writeth that her Maiestie is a petie Pope which is a gracelesse or shamelesse assertion or both for who woulde not bee ashamed but these swelling mindes that thinke they may speake what they list to ascribe that to Master Bancroft that hee reprehendeth in Martin His wordes are playne his minor 1 Pag. 68. saith he meaning Martin viz. that her Maiestie is a pety Pope may thus bee prooued If the Libeller holde on this course of lying hee will prooue many strange and wonderous matters especially among the Disciplinarians whose consistories is built on lyes But if they diffame her Maiestie that holde her to be a pety Pope as the Libeller by many great wordes and vnnecessary proofes in a matter confessed auoweth then is Martin and his partakers felonious diffamers of her Maiestie for hee holdeth that whosoeuer taketh on him the authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall which the Pope had is a petie Pope as before is sayde But that authority the whole parliament giueth to her Maiestie May it therefore please the Libeller to barke against the Parliament or els against Martin Against Master Bancroft that neyther thought it nor wrote it nor spake it but reprehendeth it in the person of Martin there is no cause for him to declayme all this Libelling notwithstanding the petitioner calleth his consortes our brethren but if his brotherhood consist in such scurrilous rayling let him seeke other brethren The brotherhood and felloship of Christians is knowen by loue The badge of puritanisme is vnnaturall and vnkinde and vnbrotherly dealing And therefore I doubt whether they be brethren or no both considering their hereticall opinions and also their vncharitable and vnchristian rayling And yet I say notwitstanding all this vnnaturall dealing that the bishops so much as they might yea too too much haue dealt remissely against such contumatious and worthlesse disturbers of the Church And that not for any thing which appeareth in this accusers wtitings wherein they see nothing but velliacry and presumption and vanitie but in respect of their owne milde natures Christian affection and desire of peace which these fellowes scorned In the ende hee concludeth that considering the doubtfulnesse of these controuersies hee trusteth her Maiestie will take some good order for the peaceable debating of them hauing I say reuelde at full both against ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction and that before so mightie a prince whose presence he ought more to haue reuerenced hauing also at such time as hee was to speake to her Maiestie talked against all decorum with by standers yea with those that were absent nowe as it were before his death he commeth home to himselfe and prayeth her Maiestie to take some good course for the peaceable ordering of these controuersies as if all her former lawes all her care all her proceedings were not to bee valued in one haire And as if rayling and accusing deserued fauour or his dispute credite or his insolencie pardon I doubt not buther Maiestie of her wisedome seeth the impudencie of the man the weakenesse of the cause the wrong done to others but especially to her selfe her gouernement and her lawes-that others may see it I haue lightly framed this answere lest the foole should enter into conceipt of his wit and others be abused by his malice not in many words for what should I stand about that wherin is nothing but pride ignorance and choller Now because by alledging their opinions he would make the world beleeue that his clients are slandered I wil shew that he 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 smootheth some things that are hard and concealeth many things that are worse and therefore that he and his clients are to be taken as they are The words I haue set downe and by them my answere reade with iudgement iudge with equity shewe equity to trueth Obseruations vpon certaine opinions commonly holden by the puritanes and collected by the said author of the petition with answeres to their petitions and desires ioyned with the foresaid opinions The words of the petitioner TO the end it may appeare how vniustly the seekers of reformation are slandered by the bishops Petitioner and others I haue thought good briefly truly to deliuer the opinions of such as sue for reformation which I haue gathered out of their bookes and seene in their practise and heard in conference which I had with them Neither hath the man deliuered his consorts opinions truly Answere nor was it sufficient if hee had meant to cleare them from slander to deliuer some part of their opinions vnlesse he had also deliuered their whole doctrine concerning their consistoriall discipline for what excuse may it bee for an here-tike to beleeue well in some poyntes or for leude men to doe something well But this generall doctrine of theirs neyther doth he nor durst hee deliuer it was somewhat too hoat and sawcie The soueraigntie of the aldermen in making lawes iudging and excommunicating princes dissoluing the lawes of the land taking away her Maiesties prerogatiue in pardoning offences and depriuing her of the argument she hath to shewe her clemencie in in diminishing her reuenues hee concealeth Neither doth hee reueale vnto vs those mysticall rules whereby the consistoriall faction doth ouerthrowe the parliament the apologie and fayth of this Church the Vniuersities and many priuate mens interest Likewise hath he passed ouer in goodly glosing wordes and not once mentioned other dangerous poynts That therefore which hee wanteth to the intent that wee may haue a perfect draught of the alestond of this newe brewed discipline I purpose to set down and to declare vnto you both their doctrine and their practise So that you may perceiue that they are vainely tearmed seekers and sewers for reformation And that the cause wee defende is not the cause of bishops whom we leaue to defend their doings themselues but the cause of God of religion of our countrey of the prince of learning of the whole ministerie against factious mates and heretical schismatikes and enemies of the ministery learning that in these dangerous times go about to make an vproare in their countrey and a spoyle of the rewards of learning If then that which is best in
al these mens deuises be nought worth how litle is the rest thereof to bee valued sure if that which themselues confesse bee not sufferable the rest must needs be vntollerable which if the petitioner know not he is but a nouice in his owne cause and knoweth litle or nothing if he knew he is very impudent that dare defend such maner of persons They openly professe and acknowledg that they bee sinnefull men Petitioner A great matter Answere for albeit they shoulde neyther professe nor confesse so much yet woulde the same appeare but too too euidently In doctrine their leud heretical opinions In maners their pride malice crueltie couetousnesse vsury gluttonie and chamber cheare which they call fasting and colour with tearmes of godly exercises doe notoriously conuince them neither do I yet tell all for other matters I haue thought good to keepe for an ariere bāquet for that I would not haue the libeller surfet which he would percase doe if too much were set before him at once They call not themselues puritanes Petitioner Vntruth Answere for both Martin this petitioner calleth his 1 Pag. 83. consorts puritanes yea and others more honest men then eyther of the two which wee are rather to beleeue then the petitioner call them so and that rightly for commonly they appropriate vnto themselues the name of the saints of godly brethren and such like and account and call others that be not of their faction 2 Martins hay any work and his minerals prophane They esteeme also the 3 T. C. eldership a pure gouernment and other corrupt and T. Cartw. calleth his cause the cause of sincerity why then are they not iustly called puritanes percase they wil answere that they are impure filthie fellowes which in deed is true for their puritie neither consisteth in life nor doctrine for none therein can be lesse pure vnlesse it be in bare conceit but in outward shewes false semblant vaine protestations of reformation gogling of eyes and painted hypocrisie this excuse therefore that they doe not call themselues puritanes were it true yet is it vnsufficient seeing they take vpon themselues to be more pure then others as did the puritanes of old time for we may not thinke that the Cathari or Nouatians accounted themselues without sinne but were called puritanes for seuering themselues from others which they accounted lesse pure then themselues They do absolutely yeeld and subscribe to the Articles of Christian faith Petitioner and doctrine professed in the Church of England And therfore offend not against the statute made 23. of Elizabeth c. 12. concerning that purpose This is a palpable vntrueth Answere for both doe they put out certaine articles and adde others vnto the Apostles Creede And T. C. and Fenner confound person and essence in the Deitie and make the sonne to proceede from God the Father The article concerning bishoppes and homilies and Ecclesiasticall gouernement they vtterly denie and therefore are both schismatikes and heretikes and offend against that statute most directly and denie it shamefully and cauill most absurdly for where the Parliament calleth all the booke and the pointes therein conteined Articles of Religion These subscribe onely to the Articles of Faith and Sacraments Expounding faith strictly and discharging thēselues easilie and expounding statutes contrarie to the opinion of Iudges Call you this consistoriall interpretation They giue to her Maiestie all that power Petitioner that is recognised to be in her highnes by the othe of supremacie as it is by her Maiestie expounded and therefore be no traytors How can this be Answere seeing they deny her power to nominate bishops to make ecclesiasticall lawes to determine ecclesiasticall causes or to delegate others to heare and determine them and take away the last appeale and cognition from her and giue her not any tenths or subsidies how I say may this be seeing they take away both her ecclesiasticall authoritie and her reuennues and giue this power partly to Elderships partly to Synodes partly to Deacons new found creatures And therefore albeit they take the othe of supremacie yet they deny her supreme power vnder colour of the interpretation of the iniunction which abridgeth not her power in cases expressed Beware therefore Libeller and touch this string no more for it soundeth but badly in all loyall subiects eares They professe all obedience to the Lordes of the counsell Petitioner the Iudges and ciuil Magistrates and therefore be not Anabaptistes He saith they professe all obedience Answere but if he would haue excused his clyents he should haue said they performe it for the Iesuites doe in termes professe obedience yet none more factious this is a point that doeth neerely touch his cause and would haue required more diligence in clearing of it For whatsoeuer they professe in this petition both their doctrine and behauiour is contrarie They set the subiectes against the prince as hath bene shewed and haue wilfully oppugned all her Maiesties ecclesiastical lawes they vse her with bitter termes Martin saith her Maiestie is 1 Epist p. 10. 53. seduced and that God 2 Hay any worke alloweth not her gouernement and that she biddeth 1 Ibidem battell to God They teach that Ministers ought 2 Regist p. 48. not to obey the prince when he prescribeth ceremonies and fashions of apparell They accuse her maiestie eyther of ignorance being abused or vnthankefulnes to God and negligence 3 Motion with submission pap 41. in her duetie They resemble her to 4 Gilbie Ieroboam Achab Iehoram and other wicked princes They that wrote the 5 2. Admonit Admonition acuse the high court of parliament of iniquitie affirme that it shall be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha then that court and calleth the Lords politike Machiauels Penrie accuseth 6 Supplication them of betraying God and his kingdome and prophecieth of the Spaniardes to come and wast the land They affirme That our counsell 7 Epistle before reformation no enemie may truely be said to delight in iniurie and violent oppression of Gods saintes And that the Lordes cannot possibly bee said to deale in 8 Ibidem matters of Iustice They charge them with maintenance of impietie and say that with 9 Ibidem Pilate they crucifie Christ. They affirme that the Magistrates and Ministers haue walked hand in hand in the contempt of true religion They call the Iudges wicked lawyers and Atheists Vpon ecclesiasticall 10 Vdals dialogue and Martins Epist gouernours they raile most impudently calling them robbers wolues simoniakes persecutors and such like And therefore if they bee not accompted Anabaptists they haue the more wrong seeing in all disobedience and vnciuill reproches they passe the Anabaptists This is the onely difference that Anabaptistes reuell against all Magistrates these against such especially as withstand their rebellious deseignements They holde it lawfull before
barking curres as this which without reason baull at lawes and antiquitie and if they had might would bite also Article 36 There be many Churches in England that haue scarce had 12. sermons in 12. yeeres Answere The cause why in some places there are so fewe sermons preached is for that the liuing is appropried and that such as haue it haue no care of mens soules let the articulator therefore article against them and not impute their faultes to the cleargie that cannot doe withall if among the cleargie hee knoweth any that doe not their duetie or that preach not their sermons why doth he not name them that order may be taken that sermons may be had according to lawe If he can name none why doth he mention many And if there be any default herein why doth hee deface the state and not rather blame those greedie persons that by taking away the liuings of Churches are cause of this disorder Wherefore to answere him let him this vnderstand that there are mo learned Preachers and Sermons preached in England proportion for proportion then eyther in Fraunce or Scotland howsoeuer the same seeme to him to be refourmed Article 37 Erasmus paraphrasis should be had in all Churches Answere Accuse them that haue it not There is none more guilty then the brother-hoode of Puritans that condemne all good learning and care for none other bookes then the Geneua Bible Caluins institutions and Bezaes Comments excepting alwayes Caluins Commentaries on Iob and Martyrs common places in English Nor haue other cause to like of Erasmus paraphrasis but that now all their exercises bee nothing but light and fantasticall paraphrases except alwayes some heauie and malicious inuectiues Article 38 Ecclesiasticall persons shoulde not play at unlawfull games as Cardes Dice c. but they offende more then any other that pretend conformitie Answere I tolde you that this Reuellors purpose was rather to rayle then amend any matter Why doth he not name these gamesters and vnlawfull games and proue that such games as are vsed are vnlawfull nay when he hath proued what hee can I doe thinke that honest recreations that some ministers vse are more commendable then the sabothes exercises of most puritans Article 39 Non residents should distribute the 40. part of their liuing to the poore of the parish which they doe not Likewise they should mayntayne schollers Answere I knowe none more hard-hearted then the Puritans nor more bountifull then the Clergie to the poore As for Pettifoggers and Scribes they do skinne the poore and helpe them not Nothing therefore could bee more vnseasonable then this accusation For albeit the Ministerie by the spoyles of Patrons and griedie Gulles and wicked vexations of Puritans are almost now the poorest of the parish yet are they not sparing to giue euery man according to his facultie And as for some bishops it shal be prooued that they are as ready to maintayne and preferre learned schollers as the Puritans to impouerish them and spoyle them the rest let them answere for themselues Blush therefore you sacrilegious Church-robbing Puritans the ruinors of all churches and shame to talke of liberalitie and maynetenance of schollers For by your barking and by your spoyles and by your crying out against the reward of learning and by that pouertie and contempt you haue brought the ministerie into you haue almost ouerthrowen the ministery in Scotland religion in France would ouerthrow both in England And what should we els looke for at their hands seeing in racking of Rents exteremitie of dealing vsurie and vnlawfull practises of gaine and Turkish and inhumane crueltie diuers of these zelatours of puritanisme passe both Turkes and Heathen Article 40 The Queenes Iniunctions are not read quarterly as they should be Answere They are read as oft as neede is and if any negligence bee committed it is by the Puritans that bring all lawes into contempt sure they are contemned more by them then any for they openly impugne them not onely neglect them But admit they should be read very often yet would not the Puritans heare them nor obey them For they neyther respect her Maiestie nor her lawes but in despite of both seeke to establish a new gouernment and newe Iniunctions for which if they doe not shortly reforme themselues there will bee such penance inioyned them that they will better remember Iniunctions all their life long Article 41 Holy-dayes should bee spent in godly exercises Bishops bestowe them prophanely in playing at Bowles hearing Comedies and Tragedies Answere Very vnlikely it is that such fellowes as this should teach Bishops how to bestowe their time seeing there is none bestoweth these dayes worse then the hypocriticall secte of Puritans that in slaundering factious declayming against lawes and gouernours in chambring and chambring exercises yea and in worse matters doe bestowe their time in corners doing things which you may conceiue I may not vtter and therefore these are prophane and wicked hypocrites As for honest exercises why may they not be vsed vpon holy dayes so it be not in times of seruing God Wherefore vnlesse the Libeller can shew both better law and reason against bowles and other exercises well vsed and shewe cause why Tragedies may not be heard his accusation will rather seeme to proceede from malice then other cause and hee will bee taken for a prophane sencelesse hypocrite that is offended with bowling and exercises of learning and yet thinketh it lawfull to make an occupation of lying slaundering and defacing of good men and alloweth the secrete and parlour conferences of his fellowe Puritans and many other bad practises whereof some are comicall others tragicall and most of their discipline fabulous or a comicall fable Article 42 The Bishops be not without superstitious paintings in their chambers and diuers Churches haue them not abolished Article 22 To condemne the historicall and ciuill vse of painting is vnciuill and sauoureth of Turcisme Other vses of painting bishops haue none neyther is there now any superstitious vse of payntings in church wyndowes but those that are if they displease the Libeller he may haue downe at pleasure when hee will set newe glasse in their place The paintings that doe more harme are in apparell ruffes yea womens faces and their furniture wherein I would the Puritans did not commit both Idolatrie and other follie Wherefore seeing he is in the way as hee pretendeth of Reformation let these abuses of pricking pride painting be remoued also let him take heede that superstitiously he doe not make an idole of his discipline that both out of church and common wealth is to be abolished Article 43 The wiues of Ministers and Deacons should bee allowed by the Ordinary and two Iustices of peace But many forward Chapleyns regarde not this Answere In disdaine this scorneful wretch calleth learned Ministers Chapleins sparing neyther his aduersaries nor friends the Puritans that are for the most part trencher Chapleins nor others But what such lewde
al men of learning 56 In the rules of French discipline it is enacted by the Synodicall assemblie that no Minister shall possesse landes houses or tythes wherein they declare that Ministers must liue on almes and their wiues and children be turned on begging what man then hath not good cause to detest this odious discipline that doeth not onely ouerthrowe the Ministerie but the mariage of Ministers also by a necessarie consequent 57 Finally to shut vp all in one Article these men if they be not looked into will ouerthrowe religion her Maiesties authoritie the honour of the state the rewardes of learning the studie of artes and diuinitie both the vniuersities the hope of vertue the lawes of England and many priuate mens interestes I woulde say the Church also but that euery man is desirous that the same may hee ruinated but let them that seeke the spoiles of others take heede that they be not afterwarde made a spoyle themselues It is a common saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and oftentimes the spoylers are spoyled If I shoulde prosecute the whole course of their proceedings and lay it downe in Articles as the Libeller hath begonne I shoulde but wearie you with needelesse repetitions as the Libeller hath done alreadie this is sufficient to shewe vnto you that we want not Articles against these fellowes whensoeuer their cause shall come to audience yea Articles materiall and concludent and farre vnlike to the friuolous and ridiculous Articles deuised by the Libeller His Articles haue no sequel Iudge I pray you and consider of them all of them tend to this ende to shewe that some of the Ecclesiasticall state haue offended against lawes in small trifles and are to be punished which were it granted yet doeth it not followe that a new gouernement is to be embraced and the state altered which is his principall desire and seeking Contrariwise our Articles doe shewe that both their gouernement is vniust and disordered and their opinions lewde and fantasticall and their practises seditious and therefore neither to be tollerated which is that which not onely we desire but the peaceable maintenance of the state requireth and enforceth And I doubt not but all those that giue themselues to the studie of lawes or other learning or fauour the state considering these matters will hereafter discerne who they are that would ouerthrowe her maiesties lawes and that not in vaine diuers haue gone about to withstand their lewd proceedings Hauing made an end of his Articles he declareth That his purpose was onely to redeeme her maiesties lawes from captiuitie of the clergie But he abuseth first his reader for his whole booke declareth that his purpose was rather to ouerthrowe lawes then to establishe them secondly the whole Ministerie of of the Church whom he chargeth with suppressing of lawes when all men knowe that their onely desire is that lawes may be executed He would also make them more base and odious and yet nothing can be more contemtible miserable then they haue made the whole ministerie by their odious practises For wealth and riches marchants artificers husbandmen commonly goe beyond thē Fewe leaue any thing behinde them they pay foure times more to her maiestie thē any state of mē that are most charged pay it most willingly They are wronged of euery man what would these men haue more vnlesse they seeke their liues how thē did he not shame to say that the clergie keepeth her maiesties lawes in captiuitie or how shamed he not to speake of captiuity seeing not they but the Lords of the cōsistorie keepe lawes ministers subiectes yea princes in captiuitie Trauers in his booke against Bridges doeth vaunt that they had alreadie brought diuers princes vnder their yoke and excommunicated them They say as the Pope said that they haue power to giue ouer all princes to satan to bring in their constitutions they would ouerthrowe all lawes their onely will against all lawes must preuaile He further calleth the Cleargie carnall worldlings He I say whose workes are fleshlie whofe consortes are swollen with surfet and whose portion is in this world calleth others carnall worldlings and as if he were in a bedlem fitt cryeth out in his lunatike stile O England England how long wilt thou endure these carnall worldlings A strange matter that such presumptuous companions should either dare or daring be suffered to raile against the whole Ministerie or that any that is in the Ministerie or toward it should fauour this faction that bendeth all their force against learned men and Ministers or finally that any should either imagine that these men did entend reformation or endure to heare such lewde companions to call themselues authors of reformation can malicious libelling seditious practises counterfect hypocrisie notorious crueltie exceeding pride and vanitie stand with reformation no no. and therefore let this libeller that desireth to haue faithfull true English hearted men to examine these things obteine his purpose and let them examine both the ecclesiasticall state and these hypocriticall pretenders of reformation what bribes they haue taken what extortion they haue committed what tenants they haue racked what they haue purchased what they haue spent in ryote what landes they haue receaued from their ancestors what they haue left to their successors what offices they haue borne what wrōgs they haue done I doubt not but all the factious sorte will soone repent them of this course especially when it shall be shewed that their heartes are scarce English that misliking all English lawes embrace a packe of outlandish vanities that they seeke nothing but the desolation both of church countrie the ouerthrowe of her maiesties lawes honor and the confusion of the vniuersities and all men of learning And thus much sufficeth to haue answered concerning the petitioners articles resteth nowe that I answere also his interogatories and questions that hee may bee the better satisfied and you may the better conceiue of the mans ignorance and malice If diuers things bee againe repeated and rubbed ouer blame not me but blame the babbling fellowe that drewe me to it seeing he obiecteth I could doe no lesse then answere you that haue heard his demaundes with patience heare I pray you my answere hee calleth himselfe Putcase vnder the name of Putcase you shall heare the summe of his demandes and questions CERTAINE QVESTIONS AND INTERROgatories Putcase drawen by a fauourer of reformation c. Wherein he desireth to bee resolued which the Printer hath thought good here to annexe THe course is very odious and not to be suffered Answere for if euery leud questioner might frame cases against religion or lawes neyther shall religion nor lawe maintaine due credite And if euery libeller might lawfully make demaunds sounding to the infamie of gouernours and magistrates and their doings bee traduced by infamous interrogatories it would worke in short time great hatred and confusion His first fault therefore is this that hee
directions Neither is the inquisition which we haue deriued from the pope but vsed of al nations contrariwise the inquisition of the cōsistorie is like to the Spanish inquisition the papal proceeding For as in the Spanish inquisition so in the consistorie a man is called knoweth no accuser and whether hee confesse or not hee is sure to abide the order of the consistorie and what they command the ciuill Iudge performeth And therefore if all must away whatsoeuer is borowed from the pope away must the consistorie goe and their excommunication of princes and their absolute tyrannie Quaere if Christ were before the bishops should answere Putcase Quaest 17. beeing demanded of his doctrine I spake openly c. Aske them that hearde me whether he should be committed as M. Bambridge M. Iohnson and other godly ministers This question touching Iohnson and Bambridge concerneth the ecclesiasticall state nothing at all Answere For their cause was heard and ended at Cambridge before the Vicechanceller and his assistants so that it should seeme to bee a case put besides the cause in handling But in the same wee may see that these fellowes meane no lesse to ouerthrow the state priuiledges and iurisdiction of the Vniuersities then of the bishops Marke it therefore you my masters of the Vniuersities These fellowes whom you foster in your bosomes meane to touch your freehold also neither can they conceale their malice against all men of learning To answere this absurd question I say that I cannot chuse but wonder that any shoulde bee so blasphemous and wicked as to compare Christ Iesus the sonne of God vnto Iohnson a factious companion and a wicked heretike Out of Cambridge hee was expulsed for his mutinous Sermon and other leude behauiour From thence he went to Middleborough a retrait of such kinde of fellowes There hee declined into Barrowisme wherein hee now continueth hauing augmented his opinions with many newe fancies of his owne Bambridge a man somewhat wiser then Iohnson yet neyther to be compared with Christ nor any verie discreete or modest Christian Christ neuer declaimed against the state of priests nor did hee spreade newe doctrines nor did he spurne against gouernours These haue done al these things and it is the cōmon practise of all such as bee of this sort Christ did not refuse to answere directly and confessed that he was the sonne of God These stand not vpon their innocencie but vpon tearmes of lawe Neyther doth the example of our Sauiour fit them For hee being asked of his doctrine in generall coulde not otherwise answere then in generall These refuse to answere in particular poyntes which he did neuer and therefore iustly were committed A matter iustifiable both by the lawes of God also the lawes ciuill canon and common If being to answere in the Starre Chamber or Chancerie vnto certaine articles they shoulde answere That they deliuered nothing but publikely and will the examiner to aske them that heard and saw they would bee sent to other places to aduise vpon the matter Further I say it will not fall out in proofe that those men which haue bene conuented before the high Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical are either godly or wise or ministers therefore false it is that he affirmeth them to bee godly ministers and very scandalous to the state whom he setteth forth as a state persecuting Christ Iesus whereas in deed these men by defacing the Church and the gouernours thereof by teaching of erronious doctrine and by raising of stirres about a new gouernment which was neuer heard of in Christs Church do shew themselues enemies of Christ of his Church and of his Gospel and therefore together with Iohnson of whom themselues are now ashamed to bee cast out of the Church vnlesse they shew more signes of amendment Quaere Putcase Quaest 18. if by the iudiciall lawes by the Court in Chauncerie or Starre Chamber any man be forced to sweare before hee knowe the cause at least in generall whereunto he is to take his oath Suppose a man should graunt so much Answere albeit the vse be not alwayes so what will he conclude That the high commissioners proceede contrarie to lawe His purpose is so to doe but his argument will not so conclude vnlesse he shewe that they doe not also declare in generall the summe of the matter to which euery one is to answere But that he cannot doe and therefore I returne him backe to his prompters to frame his case better and doe reiect him as alledging matters not concludent In the meane while let him vnderstand thus much that the proceeding of Ecclesiasticall courtes in exacting of othes is not onely confirmed by all lawes but also by the practise of Geneua the patriarchall sea of puritans Quaere whether Bishops be not bound to confirme children Putcase Quest 19. aswel as Ministers to marrie with a Ring And whether may not popish young men not being confirmed refuse the Communion He would conclude Answere that because Bishops neglect some part of their duetie it is lawfull for his consortes to breake all lawes but the sequele is naught That children are not confirmed the fault is in parents that bring them not of these seducers that preach against confirmation not in Bishops And therefore if any refuse to receiue the Communion it is no reason he shoulde receaue benefite by his owne negligence but rather be punished for both faultes In that he ioyneth popish young men together with fantasticall young Ministers which refuse to marrie with the Ring he doeth not amisse for they doe both consent in oppugning the state and therefore are both to be punished neither will the pleading of the Bishops negligence if any be serue either of them Quaere Putcase Quest 20. whether an Ecclesiasticall Iudge may punish Bristowe for writing that our Communion booke is an apish imitation of the Masse-booke seeing the statute giueth onely that authoritie to Iustices of peace and whether Bristowe deprauing the Communion booke may be depriued of all his spirituall promotions for his first offence c. Item whether the lawe doeth not fauour the puritan as much as the papist The case is absurdly put Answere for it supposeth matters vnprobable as that Bristowe should haue certein spiritual promotions in England had onely offended in speaking against the Communion booke whereas the man did wilfully flye out of his countrie for his mislike of the state and practised diuers treasons and for the same being apprehended committed to prison died there Onely this thing is herein commendable that puritans papistes are very fitly ioyned together in this case Both deny the supremacie alike both depraue the gouernmēt-alike both rayle against our Communion booke alike and therefore that all may be alike both deserue to be vsed alike To the question I answere That the lawe accepteth not of persons but whether Th. Cartwright or Penrie or Bristowe or Allen
new gouernement at pleasure nor doth any of them doubt but that the gouerment of the Church of England is Apostolicall and that the gouernement by elders is both new and fantasticall Quaere Putcase Quaest 36. if Iohn at Stile shoulde grant there was a gouernement by elders in the primitiue Apostolicall and best Church and shoulde call the same gouernement a popedome and tyrannie whether this did not rankly smell of detestable atheisme If Iohn at Stile should say as much as this libeller hath said in his libell Answere hee might percase change his stile and bee called Iohn at Gibet for these bee matters worthy Gibets but concerning this matter I thinke Iohn at Stile will not say that there was euer such a packe of Church-aldermen as this faction vseth in their Consistories And if hee should say so hee should say vntrueth neyther were the Elders in the primitiue Church or after other then Apostles and ministers of the worde All the ancient Fathers were ignorant of this newe gouernment yet was it not Atheisme in them to say it as this wicked and hypocriticall Atheist auoweth nor are these Atheistes that impugne the fonde Consistorie or that affirme that the newe gouernment is tyrannie nay which is worse that it is meere foolerie but those that wrest Gods worde and lye shamefully to proue it For what more sottish sencelesse gouernment can there be then to make clownes iudges of learning religion and controuersies of diuinitie or more absurde then to refuse that gouernment that euer was in the church Quaere whether the Churches in Scotlande France Put-case Quest 38. the lowe countreyes Hungary Poland Bohemia Saxony Heluetia and the County Palatine of Rhene and whether Zuinglius Oecolampadius Melancthon Bucer Caluin Zanchus Martyr infinite other the most excellent diuines in all the world commending the continuance of the Eldership be all Anabaptistes Puritans rebellious Traytors Marstates Marlawes Marprinces and Maralles and D. Bancroft M. Sutcliffe c the onely good subiectes in all the worlde As we do not willingly condemne other churches in their gouernment Answere so we thinke Beza and others might haue done more wisely discretely not so rashly to haue censured ours especially pronouncing without hearing both parties and sitting iudge in his owne cause and speaking neither good diuinitie nor good lawe nor good reason yet we say if any of these aboue named should in this state go about to place the eldership so contrary to a monarchicall regiment he should haue done therein no good office nor discharged the ductie of a wise man this I say further that this libeller doeth make most shamefull lyes where hee nameth many churches and many learned men as fauourers of the new Eldership whereas in trueth they neuer knewe what it meant It is not in Saxonye Bohemia Polande Hungary nor in many places in the low countreyes and where it is the same continueth with small profit and much displeasure The countie Palatine of Rhene hath after many styrres cōditionally receiued it Heluetia neuer had it neither Oecolampadius nor Zuinglius nor Melancthon euer knew it nor I thinke the rest What a shamelesse fellow then was this thus impudently to lye nay Saxony hath superintendents and so sometimes had Scotlande and Tossane they say is generall superintendent of all the Palsgraues dominions concerning Church causes and the Churches of Strangers in Englande in King Edwardes dayes had superintendents Melancthon and Zanchus liked our bishops and therefore none of these are like to our factious Puritans And as for Doctor Bancroft and my selfe they cannot say but that wee are good subiectes nor note vs with any disloyaltie But beside vs the least of thousandes there are infinite more good subiectes and learned men of which nomber the Puritans are none all which stande against the factious gouernment of the Elderships maintaine the ancient apostolicall orders of the Church That the best Diuines in the worlde should hold with the Eldership is a fancy for all the ancient Fathers were ignorant of it and the godly martyrs of our land in Queene Maries time refused it beside them infinite learned men all which hold with bishops which these condemne chuse you therefore whether you will follow all antiquitie or Th. Cartwright Giles Wigg Iohn Penry Tauergius Caluetus and such tagrag fellowes percase great fauourers of the church-aldermen but neyther wise nor learned Quaere Put-case Quest 39. whether the Kings of France and Scotlande the princes of Condè and Orenge the duke of Saxony the countie palatine of Rhene the States of the lowe countreyes many other Dukes Princes Marquesses Earles Barons and other christian and noble potentates who haue mainteined fauoured and preferred the Ministers that stand for reformation and whether here in England the right honorable sir Nicolas Bacon Lord keeper the Erles of Bedford Warwicke and Leycester Sir Francis Walsingham Sir Amias Paulet Sir Walter Mildemay and other right noble Lordes Counsellours Countes and Countesses woulde haue countenanced and protected the Ministers that seeke reformation if they had perceiued them to bee enemies to the Queene and state worse then papistes and miscreants and whether our Prelates bee more trustie to her Maiestie and prouident to auoyde danger then these excellent personages were This argument for the consistory is drawen from the opinion of courtiers men of warre Bellipotentes sunt magis quà m sapientipotentes Ennius apud Cicer. 2. diuinat therfore seemeth to me strange in diuinitie howsoeuer it is approued as good in the consistorie that dependeth on opinion and is turned as the cloudes with the winde If the same were any thing worth then might the heresie of Arrius yea Paganisme bee confirmed also to bee as good religion as the consistorian discipline for many Emperours Kings noble men dukes countes countesses captaines yea whole States haue embraced Paganisme and condemned Christian religion and fauoured idolatrous priests and persecuted christians Constantius and all his court for the most part most of his dominions embraced Arianisme And what wonder if diuers noble men and women embraced this fantasticall Discipline for whome would not the demure countenance sober sighes and out drawen speech of these hypocrites abuse wherefore let this libeller ground him selfe vpon these mens courtly fauour muster an army ready to fight for discipline let him haue his captaines officers his marshals lieutenants ensignes sergeantes corporals drummers and fifes and let him make his aldermen gunners for if they could looke with one eye they would proue most excellent in that facultie shooting so well at randon about interpretation of scriptures hauing so long layne battering downe our State I say all these mens opinions without authoritie of Scripture wey not one pepper graine Hee is a simple man that will die in that religion that most of these fauourers of Discipline which this man hath named did and most simple that will thinke the
consistorian faction good because some here mentioned fauoured it for some had one respect some another and were men of strange Diuinitie for the most part which I could iustifie by particulars but I will not trouble the rest of those that are dead nor disgrace those that are aliue Let them be as good as they are supposed yet doe I beleeue one Father in matters of Diuinitie before them all Besides that diuers men here named neuer fauoured the Consistorie as the last French kings the Dukes of Saxony other Christian potentates neither did the Frenchmen contend for the Consistory which came to be afterwarde established but for religion And well it is knowen that both the Earle of Leycester and Sir Francis Walsingham in their latter times renounced these men confessing that they had bene greatly abused by their hypocrisie Neither do I thinke that Sir Nicholas Bacon Sir Walter Mildemay and such noble counsellours woulde fauour factious fellowes or suppose these whome the Libeller defendeth to bee good subiects Nay one of them hath spoken most earnestly in open Parliament against them and their Elderships so that this argument that standeth on such false assertions and weake authoritie cannot be good If this argument be sufficient to proue them good subiects albeit they deny her Maiesties supremacie in Ecclesiasticall causes and slander her gouernement then Papists and traitors may by the same be prooued to be good subiects for great Princes states and potentates fauour their cause The Bishops and other ministers that liue in obedience of Lawe cannot with those faultes bee charged and therefore are wronged to bee matched with these mutinous mates that with multitude and power rather then reason seeke to preuayle Yet haue they against them all the ancient fathers all counsels all learned men of time past yea all antiquitie yea many learned men of our time with whome neither for nomber nor authoritie are these fellowes to bee compared Quaere Putcase Quest 40. whether a Minister ought not to admonish the mightiest Prince of his duetie refuse to administer the sacrament vnto him if he bee a notorious offender and pronounce him to bee no member of Christ in the communion of Saintes if hee continue obstinate in open crimes and whether vnder the Law Dauid and other princes were not subiect to ceremoniall expiations and the spirituall power of Priestes and Prophets and whether Ambrose did well in vsing like authority towards an Emperour and lastly whether Zanchus Caluin Bucer Nowel Iewel Bilson and Bridges approouing the like be traytors Popes and tyrants If a minister may doe all these seruices against a prince Answere what should any neede to desire the Eldership forsoothe belike one is too fewe to suppresse a princes authoritie for this cause it is not fitting that any such power should bee granted eyther to ministers or to consistories for that which is alledged viz. that ministers may admonish princes maketh nothing for the consistory nor excommunication of princes by ministers for betwixt publike and generall admonitions and excommunication there is no small difference euery minister may vse that according to his place and calling but it were somewhat too sawcy a matter for euery hot braynd fellowe to vse this especially against princes neither did either the priests excōmunicate Dauid nor Ambrose pronounce sentence against Theodosius he did only exclude him from his owne communion nor do I find where any of these learned men euer did make the soueraine prince subiect to a cocke braynd fellowes curse If he were subiect then were he no soueraine prince then should euery minister controlle the prince which is absurd repugnant to state but as this felow doth insinuate Dauid was subiect to ceremonial expiations admitte it were so yet great difference there is betweene these expiations voluntarily vndertaken and excommunication violently pronounced as learned men haue shewed There is no other meanes whereby the 1 Machiauel histor fiorent lib. 1. Popes grewe great at the first then by excommunication shall we then recall againe the Papall tyrannie shall we establish the instrument of so many rebellions shall wee admit such foolish conditionall sentences which all Lawes condemne As for Nowel Bilson Bridges and others writing against papistes they doe not simply auowe such excommunication of princes as these would haue but prooue that other bishops may proceede therein as farre as the bishops of Rome and that with them they haue equall authoritie Quaere Put-case Quest 41. why there may not bee vnder a Christian Magistrate Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Widowes aswell as Parsons Lecturers Schoolemasters Churchwardens Collectours for the poore and Hospitall women seeing these doe and may execute in authoritie and power the whole forme of Church gouernment desired though their practise thereof is infinitely corrupted against the Canons of the Apostles to the danger of the Church and dishonour of the Realme First it is false Answere that they may execute the same authoritie that the Eldershippe may Who would not bee ashamed to affirme that our Churchwardens may excommunicate any person or that any with vs beside the Prince and parliament might make Lawes and orders but hee that shameth of nothing But suppose they doe some things which the aldermen doe yet were it no reason because these doe somewhat by lawe that we should admit a gouernment contrary to lawes to state to her Maiesties prerogatiue to al scriptures fathers antiquity yea to sence reason That which he saith that the offices of our churchwardens and hospitall men are corrupt to the danger of the church and dishonour of the real me is nothing but a sound of great words without reason for neither are the offices so corrupt as he pretendeth nor is there in thē danger or disgrace nay the worst of our churchwardens are as honest wise and learned as his church-aldermen as fit to gouerne as they yea and our collectors be as good as his deacons and that hospitals be not corrupt T.C. will looke that is a master of an hospitall and a man voy de of all corruption and good dealing Quaere whether the Ecclesiasticall high commission be not in effect an Eldership wherein some gouerne with Ministers Put-case Quest 42. who by profession are temporall Lawyers Ciuilians meere laye men and whether this gouernment consisting of spirituall and temporall persons be a meddley and lynsey wolsey discipline as the Remonstrance calleth the Eldership which is now desired Nothing is more repugnant Answere nor with lesse reason compared together then the high commission eldership If I did not tell them so much yet me thinketh that their continuall declayming against the high cōmission as proceeding contrary to lawes might teache them so much for if they be so like as this fellowe nowe recanting his rayling against the high commission pretendeth why should not wee take exceptions against the imperious aldermanship of the church as these doe against
tooke for the establishing of theirs 51 Quaere whether T. Cartw. and his fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles 2 Examinations in the starre chamber and their own confessions there enacted and decreed certaine rules and orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and subscribed them and procured others to subscribe them and by all meanes possible gone about to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her maiestie and ancient gouernement of the Church Quaere whether in their saide 3 Disciplina sacra orders which they call holy discipline all authoritie in Church causes is not taken from the Christian magistrate and giuen to their assemblies in so much that the magistrate is not so much as mentioned when they talke of their new gouernement and how the sufferance of these proceedinges may stand with the maiestie of a prince or with good gouernment 53 Quaere whether they doe not 1 T.C. pag. 162 163 417. discours of eccl discip pag. 148. 174. holde that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their said platformes of discipline is neyther increased nor diminished whether the prince bee Christian or heathen and teach not that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one in ecclesiasticall causes 54 Quaere 2 That is in part euident by their confessions in the Starre chamber whether Cartwright and his adherentes haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent and authoritie and without the sayde authoritie haue not both made secrete meetings and established diuers orders and broched new opinions all contrary to the doctrine confession and gouernement of the Church of England 55 Quaere by what presumption he durst do these things and why hee is not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults 56 Quaere whether the same seditious proceedings bee not condemned in certaine actes made in the parliament holden Anno 1584 at Edenborough 57 Quaere 3 In his examinations in the Starre chamber whether Th. Cartwright sware truely in the Starre chamber when hee affirmed on his oath that hee neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery Monarchie there ought to bee certaine magistrates like the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to depose the king c. seeing the same poynt is in Fenners booke of diuinity which one Th. Cartwr in his Epistle printed before the booke doth highly commende as a profound piece of diuinity and heauenly axiomes and doctrine and whether if some other had so sworne they should not haue bene accounted periured persons and whether by the rules of discipline it bee lawfull for the edification of the consistorie to sweare falsely 58 Quaere 4 Examinations in the Starre chamber published whether haue not T.C. and his fellowes confessed on their oathes that notwithstanding all the care that hath beene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers poyntes and whether they did wisely to subscribe such orders or duetifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused platforme of gouernment to the parliament that it might bee confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and finally whether wisedome will permit men to dissolue a state alreadie setled and to embrace a gouerment whereupon the authours themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke neuer will bee and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice 59 Quaere 1 Ibid. whether T.C. and his companions doe not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the parliament for the approbation and receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernement commanded by Gods worde doe not vtterly disclaime by a most necessarie implication her Maiestie to haue any preheminence and authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they doe not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuill magistrate but yeelde all that power to their synodes classes and consistories 60 Quaere whether Cartwr and some of his fellowes and followers were not acquainted with the conspiracie of Hacket 1 Conspiracy for reformation Coppinger and Arthington and whether they knewe not that these fellowes or some of them pretended to haue an extraordinary calling which mooued them to attempt matters which might proue very dangerous to themselues whether also they knew not that the actions which they purposed to attempt by vertue of their calling did tende to their deliuerance out of prison and to the aduancing of the holy cause as they tearmed it and thereupon at Coppingers motion did holde a puritane fast wherein prayers were made to this effect that God woulde giue successe to all such meanes as shoulde bee attempted for the deliuerance of the Saintes of God and for the setting vp of their discipline and whether T. Cartw. and the wiser sort of them did not vnderstand whereto the foresaid allobrogicall and outlandish propositions of extraordinary callings did tend and finally whether all these points being such as in part haue and may fully bee prooued against them they haue not bene mercifully dealt withall and farre aboue their desertes that they haue not hitherto bene called therefore in question 61 Quaere whether Cartw. and his fellowes challenging to their eldership authority to excommunicate princes are not like to prooue as dangerous subiectes as Sanders Parsons or Card. Allen are in maintaining the popes excommunication of her Maiestie and whether it is not likely considering the inconstancie of their discipline and resolutions that although some of them pretend now to holde that excommunication doth not take away ciuill subiection they will notwithstanding for their aduantage teach contrary to their present resolutions 62 Quaere whether some one of the reformed 1 Buchanan de iure regniapud Scot. pag. 70. brotherhood haue not mainteyned in bookes printed that princes standing excommunicate may bee put to death and that when princes will not reforme religion subiects ought to do it and that saint 2 Buchan ibid. pag. 56. 57. Paules precepts of obedience to tyrants bind no further then vntil such time as the people is strong inough to resist be able to master them by force of armes 63 Quaere whether Sanders Rosse Allen and other papistes doe not in the behalfe of poperie maintaine the very same poyntes of rebellion together with Goodman Whittingham Knoxe and their teachers Beza Hotoman Buchanan and whether both factions haue not made princes subiect to the people and populer furie and taught the same doctrine of the beginning of the authoritie of princes the papistes seeking to erect their papacy the disciplinarians endeuouring to set vp their papall presbyterie 64 Quaere whether some of the doctors of this new discipline doe not mislike with the
titles of ciuill honour giuen to princes as that of maiestie highnesse grace and such like Buchan de iure regni and with the title of Lord giuen to Noblemen and whether this poynt of discipline doeth not shewe that these fellowes meane to deale with Lordes in time as well as now they are busie with bishops 65 Quaere of master Egerton the renowned paraphraste at the Blacke Friers whether it be agreed vpon in any of their synoddicall assemblies that it shall not be lawfull for her Maiestie or the princes of this Realme hereafter to goe to the Parliament with such honourable attendance as heretofore they haue vsed the first day that it is holden in that hee did write to his brother Fenne as misliking the same and sayde 2 Eger to Fenne that shee went thither 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is with great ostentation and pompe which wordes Saint Paul vseth condemning the vanitie of 3 Actes 25.23 Agryppa and Beronice 66 Quaere why Ecclesiasticall iudges may not proceede in causes ex officio to examine men vpon their othes aswell as 4 Caluins epistles fol. pag 64. Caluin did at Geneua who put the chiefe men of the towne to their othes whether they had danced or no in widowe Balthazar 's house 67 Quaere whether it be not as lawfull for euery consistorie to depose a ciuill magistrate from his place as it was for 5 Ibidem Caluin to cause one of the sindickes of Geneua for dauncing priuately in the widowe Balthazar 's house to be deposed and if dauncing be so punished whether greater offences in princes shall not be more deepely punished 68 Quaere whether that godly and zealous man of God as they call him Giles Wigginton was not 6 Conspiracie for discipline acquainted with Copingers pretence of extraordinary calling and confirmed him in it whether hee brought not Hacket first acquainted with Copinger and Arthington and iustified vnto them Hackets pretended torments and whether he was not acquainted with their cryes made in the streetes and did not vnder his hand set downe certaine reasons to proue that vpon occasion men of extraordinarie callings might crye vp and downe the streetes and whether also he made not certeine rimes and caused them to be printed and sent them abroade a little before Copingers Arthingtons proclamation wherein is conteined That a countrie clowne should teach a prince to weare a crowne And whether Hacket was not that clowne and whether Hacket Copinger and Arthington were not with him in the counter the morning before they beganne to rise and whether these practises and seditious rimeries be sufferable by the lawes of the Consistorie 69 Quaere whether Hacket in sondrie of his examinations confessed not that the godly and zealous preacher of discipline Gi. 1 Conspiracie for discipline Wigginton affirmed That if the Magistrates gouerned not well the people might drawe themselues together to see a reformatiō made whether Hacket casting some doubtes and as it should seeme mentioning her Maiestie Wigginton answered not thus you speake of a Queene of a maygame whether Hacket also affirmed not that if Wigginton were well sifted he would declare matter of treason which if the rest of his fellowes had not bene in time reueiled would haue cost a number of innocent men their blood and finally whether these be holy practises for the glorie of their discipline 17 Quaere whether Pet. Wen. writ not a letter to Copinger dated the 25. of Ianuarie 1590. wherein he taketh notice That Copinger was labouring about matters of importance and prayeth that God would direct his labours both in matter and manner and willeth him to vse good aduice and then saith as Iosuah said sometime but in a farre diuerse course be bolde and of good courage feare not to be discouraged And whether he be not to be dealt withall as an abettor to the soresaid treasonable practises for the glorious cause of pretended sinceritie 17 Quaere whether Io. Thr. was not well acquainted with Hacket Copinger and Arthingtons intentes in that Copinger writ thus vnto him My owne deare 2 Note the brotherhood of puritans whereto it tendeth brother my selfe and my two brethen who lately were together with you in Knightrider streete he meaneth Hacket and Arthington doe much desire conference with you the busines is the Lordes owne and he doeth deale in it himselfe in a strange extraordinarie manner in poore and simple creatures much is done since you sawe vs which you would reioyce to heare of Likewise let it be inquired whether he be not an abettor and concelour of their trecherous practises and whether he holdeth that he ought not in conscience to reueile his deare brethrens treasons 72 Quaere whether the said Io. Thr. did not write a letter with his owne hand to Copinger dated the 18 of the fist 1 This is the new absurd consistorian stile moneth he meaneth as I suppose May which was little more then sixe weekes before the outrage committed by the new disciplinarian prophets and whether in the same letter deuised as may be suspected in answere of Copingers letter He reioyceth not that Copinger would 2 All this is in his owne letter to be showen vnder his hand writing vouchsafe to call him brother and saith that at his being at London he heard some buzzes abroade of a sole and singuler course and wisheth that all that beare good will to the holy cause in that perilous age would take both their eyes in their handes and be sure of their gounde and warrant before they stirred to put matters in execution and proceedeth in these wordes I know my good broiher that the greatest workes of the Lorde are wrought by the weakest instruments c. and therefore were it not for my sinnes and vnworthines I could easily perswade myselfe in regarde of my weakenesse that the Lorde might effect something by me c. but this worke that you speake of howsoeuer the instrument be compassed with weakenes must sure bee wrought by a more 3 A sanctified puritan sanctified heart then myselfe can yet boast of and therefore though in affection and goodwill I ioyne yet I resigne the honour of the worke to those that the Lorde hath more thereto enabled c. Salute good Giles with many thankes whose debtor I am in the Lorde blessing vpon Sion confusion vpon Babell Quaere I say these thinges considered whether the writer was not accessarie to the saide conspiracie and a principall man in encouraging the actors which hee calleth brethren in their wicked courses and whether all his Libels and scoffes published vnder the name of Martin as namely his theses protestations dialogues arguments laying men out in their colours and all his doings tending to the aduauncement of the holy cause as they call it did not tend wholy to an insurrection and whether hee liueth not vnder mercifull gouernours that call not the man to answere for
case the synode should determine that he should pay some part whether godly brethren or prophane men should first be payd or else for auoyding of controuersie none at all 91 Quaere of Iohn Penry whether if Moses lawes haue such continuance as they holde in this newe kingdome a bastard that is excluded out of the sanctuarie may notwithstanding intrude without calling into the ministery 92 Quaere of those that make braggs of T. Cartw. great worke against the Rhemists whether there be not many points therein conteined contrary to all the fathers to the faith of this church and all good Diuinitie and why if all bee cleare with him he dare not suffer the same to abide the censures of lerned men and lastly why any should wonder that such thinges should not bee published considering what dangerous effectes doe followe printing of hereticall and schismaticall bookes 93 Quaere if a certaine consistoriall president at Middleburg when a marchant did pursue a certaine seruant of his in lawe for wasting his goods did not threaten to excommunicate him if hee would not desist his pursute and let fall his action and whether the consistory may serue for a sanctuanie for bad men and bankruptes if they professe reformation and whether this maner of discipline dissolue not ciuill contractes and hinder iustice 94 Quaere whether that the Church-aldermen doe not sometimes meddle in domesticall matters betwixt man and wife and hinder the fathers correction of his seruantes or children whether this be not a way to dissolue the bonds of nature that giueth authoritie in this case and whether the discipline that vseth this practise bee not vnciuill and vnnaturall To conclude Quaere if the Put-case had not done his clyents and their cause more good by silence then by this weake and calumnious speaking It were an easie matter to frame infinite Questions of like sort but these may suffice to let the Libeller see his owne folie in charging others when himselfe and his fellowes lye so open besides that I would not weary thee nor disfurnish my selfe of new matter against the next encounter let him article and play the Put-case as oft as hee will hee must not thinke hee shall walke vp and downe without answere or controulment in the meane while Pag. 83. because he appealeth to iudges and craueth iustice to them wee are also content to submit our cause and doe also instantly craue iustice iudge we beseech you all to whom the execution of iustice is committed whether it bee fitting that such as declame against the ancient gouernment of the Church euer knowen to bee in the Church since Christes time against the authority and preheminence of her Maiestie against the lawes of the realme against the proceedings of Iudges and take on them to controll and reuerse the sentences of iudges and seeke the trouble of the realme and maintenance of leud factions destitute of all ground and speake for a gouernement neuer heard of but of late nor that hath confirmation of scriptures or fathers iudge I say whether such intollerable pride arrogancie and disloyalty and those that defend these trecherous dealings and opinions in bookes printed in corners and without names are longer to bee suffered the inconueniences that may growe of these courses I neede not to declare vnto you that are men of iudgement and experience the weakenesse of their cause I haue sufficiently declared Why shoulde you doubt to doe iustice in so cleare a cause and against such factious persons For their doings haue no defence nor their doctrine support beside the bare opinions of Caluin Beza their followers they haue not so much as any groūd of reason no scripture no father no history no law nor example of good gouernmēt nay they haue both scriptures fathers histories lawe and reason against them most euidently and clearely and therfore I say againe let iustice be done if any of the ecclesiastical state haue done against law let them bee punished let not religion and learning suffer for the sinnes of particulars the innocent let them not be disgraced for others offences nor let malice and faction and sacriledge preuayle against lawe and gouernement that which is now their case may be likewise yours if you respect not the cause of men yet consider that it is the cause of religion learning and gouernment and so proceed as you may declare your selues to be men carefull of the aduancement of religion and learning and the maintenance of a peaceable gouernment and God so belsse you as you shew your selues studious of religion learning peace and iustice ⧠An Aduertisement to the Reader WHereas in the former discourse somewhat hath bene said in answere of the Petitioners lewd calumniations concerning the triall of Iohn Vdal and the iudgement not long since pronounced against him which he pretendeth to be disorderlie and iniurious it may be that such as list to cauill at such things as they mislike will take exceptions against the same as if I meant to abase the high authoritie of Iudges or make the proceedings of the highest courtes of Iustice an argument for the rude populasse to dispute of or to subiect the ordinarie trials of law to the controlment or at least canuases of priuate persons Least any should either in this behalfe except against me or enter into any such conceit of me I thought good expresly here to aduertise thee that both my words and meaning are contrary Concerning matters of common Iustice betwixt partie and partie I know that no iudgement is reuersed but by writ of errour and that in matters concerning the Crowne the verdicts of Iurors and sentences of Iudges for the Queene are finall and that the lawe doeth intend that Iudges and Iurors will proceede with that indifferencie and equitie that it will not haue their doings controlled nor examined by priuate persons Neither is it any part of my meaning to call any law in question or controll the doings of so honourable persons as in that fact sate Iudges Nay this is the thing which I doe so much reprehend in the Petitioner and his faction that most saucilie and arrogantly they take vpon them to examine the doings of Princes the actes of Parliament the sentences of Iudges the verdicts of Iuries and all recordes of Iustice Neither is there any companion among them so base but he taketh to himselfe libertie to censure and controll Princes Parliaments Iudges Lawes yea whatsoeuer and whomsoeuer Among others the author of the Petition hath behaued himselfe as presumptuouslie and proudly as the best Ignorance belike maketh him bolde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the rather for that it is ioyned with impudencie What through presumption and what through impudencie he hath taken vpon him contrary to the Iurors verdict and Iudges sentence to prooue that Vdall offended not against that statute of 23. Eliz. cap. 2. whereupon he was condemned This notorious impudencie and presumption I thought good to lay open before mens
or any other offend it doeth decree them to be punished if they be caught Neither haue they wrong that are depriued of their ecclesiasticall liuings for their first offence in deprauing the Communion booke For the statute doeth not onely authorize ciuile Iudges to proceede ciuillie but also ecclesiasticall Iudges to proceede to depriuation according to ecclesiasticall lawes But this companion either did not reade the statute or would not report it for then his falshood should haue appeared and his calumniation in leauing a prouiso out of the statute should haue bene reproued Concerning the Communion booke I say it is not materiall what either Bristowe or this Put-case saith of it being both enemies of the state and lying without reason and conscience The puritans haue gone about to reforme it but their new booke is such as they may be greatly ashamed of it being full of false doctrine and fauouring a fond and loose gouernement and fraught with most vaine discourses and verball speeches Quaere Putcase Quest 21. whether adulterie is to be punished by the Ordinarie seeing the punishmēt thereof without any sauing to the spiritual court is giuen by statute to Iustices of peace and whether a man may be punished by two corporall or pecuniarie punishments in two seuerall Courtes for one and the same cause The put-case tryeth himselfe to be a very proper fellow Answere to become a procter speaker in the behalfe of adulterers fornicators Percase it concerneth him neerer then I am aware of but let him against the next time vnderstand the case better that he speaketh in For it is a shame for a procter in these cases not to vnderstand the difference betwixt adulterie fornicatiō and also to say that the lawe giueth the punishement of adultery to Iustices only for in that statute there is not so much as mentiō of adulterie but of bastardy And how bastards may be gottē in lawful wedlocke he wil hardly define considering the Common law which saieth that all children borne in matrimonie the husband being Intra quatuor maria are lawfull For my part so that adulterie and fomication bee punished seuerely I doe not care That the statute doeth not hinder the ecclesiastical Iudges proceeding it is euident for that there is no clause to annull his course neither is it the intendement of the statute to fauour such lewde persons But saith he it is no reason that one should be punished both in the ecclesiasticall ciuill courts for one fault wherein he doth not only contrarie vs but Th. Cartwright also who giueth the cognition of felonies and treasons to his newe consistorie and would haue offenders herein to acknowldge their faultes there also which is directlie contrarie to the statute lawes To answere his question I deny that offenders which are for incontinencie cōuented are twise punished for one fault for both the Ecclesiasticall and ciuile court make vp their full punishment Neither doe they against lawe that for reasonable causes the partie consenting do commute the penance This I wot if the ecclesiastical Iudges would deale as some Iustices of peace haue done in this case that fornication such matters should for the most part passe without examination or controlement Quaere if any Ordinaries haue contriued promulgued Putcase Quest 22. and published Articles in his own name without assent of her maiestic vnder seale and inforced her highnes subiectes to subscribe vnto the same and for not subscribing haue suspended or depriued them whether an Ordinarie thus doing 25. H. 8. c. 19. 1. Eliz. c. 1. may not be imprisoned and fined at the Queenes pleasure If the Put-case would haue made any inquirie Answere whether Th. Cartwright his fellowes haue offended against the statute prohibiting the making of ecclesiasticall Canons hee might haue found it out easily For the acts are euery where extant their doings knowen And yet are they not fined nor al of them imprisoned for it Neither do the ecclesiasticall Ordinaries refuse to bee punished if they can bee conuicted of any such notorious offence The subscriptions which haue bene required were no newe lawes as these fellowes conceaue but confirmations and allowances of the olde yet nothing hath bin herein done but by allowance As for the proceedinges vsed against the Consistorialls they haue bene most milde and gentle not for denyall of subscription as this man pretendeth but for other factious seditious and lewde behauiour obiected to them and remayning in record whose cause let him moue as oft as he will yet shall he neuer haue honor by it Quaere Putcase Quest 23.24 25. whether an Ordinarie may cite a man to appeare before him in his court to depose as witnesse c. Item whether a man shall be examined by othe of any thing that soundeth to his reproch c. Item whether if an Ordinary cite men Ex officio to sweare to accuse themselues in causes neither Matrimoniall nor Testamentary a prohibition wil lie against him or not Item whether the cause depending in the Starre chamber the Ecclesiastiall Iudges shoulde not cease their proceedings And last of all whether the Iudges and wisest lawyers doe not condemne the proceedings of prelates To most of this I haue already spoken Answere and doubt not but therby there appeareth neither reasō nor honestie nor law nor ought else saue malice in this demaundants questions Yet thus much I answere further First that if the Iudge could not call witnesses before him there would bee no triall nor proofe in matters of doubt Secondly that in diuers criminall causes both Gods lawes and the lawes of this realme doe require that the partie answere vpon his othe Thirdly that there lyeth no prohibition for that the Ordinarie dealeth in causes orderly and according to warrant of lawe Neither is it reason that the Ecclesiasticall Iudges should cease doing of iustice against all the perturbers of this Church because there was sometimes one matter depending in the Starre-chamber against some fewe of them For where the ecclesiasticall Iudge is prohibited to proceede in one cause yet doth he notwithstanding proceede in others of like nature concerning other parties Much rather then ought they to proceede not being prohibited and in cases that are diuerse especially now that the cotumacious dealing of the Puritans is by the iudgement of the reuerend Iudges and most sufficient lawers in England condemned and the cause now dismissed the courte and diuers consultations brought after prohibitions graunted out of some courts in that cause Neither doe I thinke that either maister Cooke a man too learned not to knowe and two wise to fauour such perturbers of the state as the seare or any Iudge or learned lawyer wil condemne the proceedings of ecclesiasticall courtes in these cases as being contrary to lawe The writte in the Register which seemeth to giue leaue to Ordinaries to sweare men in causes Testamentarie and Matrimoniall is proued to be miscōstrued
by Fitzherbert For otherwise that writte should be contrarie to infinite other lawes Vpon this error what maruell is it if Crompton a man of no iudgement hath bene deceaued seeing Fitzherbert hath also mistaken such matters Neither is it maruell that lawyers speaking for their clyents doe speake otherwise then lawe For neuer before this time was it heard that the pleading of lawyers shoulde be accounted to be lawe further then they bring lawe and reason out of lawe To make a somme therefore of these matters Master Cooke who now for his manifolde good partes is made her maiesties Solicitor shall yeelde no thankes to this Libeller for bringing his name in question to bee a fauourer of malcontentes and an enemie to the Ecclesiasticall state Neither shall any credite you hereafter for this your notorious belying the Iudges For it is well knowen that the Iudges haue resolutely both condemned the disloyall practises of this sorte of men and also allowed the proceedings of the Ecclesiasticall courtes Nor shall any allowe your malice that with false reportes goe about to enkindle a dislyking among Iudges And therefore vnlesse you set downe the state of the controuersie better and reason more sufficiently both your selfe as an ignorant Put-case and your cause as repugnant to lawe will be condemned Quaere Putcase Quaest 26. if the high Commissioners for Ecclesiasticall causes may cite men Ex officio to accuse themselues in matters neither Testamentarie nor Matrimoniall and may committe the Queenes subiectes to prison especially for refusing to take the othe And whether they ought not to take bayle and whether the writte De homine replegiando doeth not lye in that case Item what satisfaction Doctor Coosin Doctor Stanhoppe and Doctor Bancrofte will make to those that are so wrongfully imprisoned Item whether for that matter they may keepe men in prison without calling them to answere and finally whether they deserue not like punishment therefore themselues Here is great noyse Answere little wooll many wordes little witte much malice little or no reason For the high Commissioners they bee many of them men of great honor and such as will doe no wrong to any nor will proceede without sufficient warrant If they haue passed the limites of their Commission why is not remedie of lawe sought For satisfaction to these doughtie demaundes I aunswere First that no man is called to accuse himselfe but to aunswere accusations obiected by others Secondly that they haue power to call offenders before them and to examine them and that their iurisdiction were vaine if they might not punish the contumacious Thirdly that if such as are committed to prison for contempt might be bayled there were then no meanes to punish a contempt and that offenders put in prison for contempt are not baylable Fourthly that the writte De homine replegiando is not in this case grauntable as all lawyers can tell him Fiftly that they may deale in many causes besides Matrimoniall and Testamentarie Sixtly that the learned men there mentioned haue great wrong to bee thus contumeliously abused by this libeller they hauing done wrong to no man Seuenthly that men committed for disobedience are not to bee released but vpon their conformitie And finally that such libellers as take vpon them to raile at Iudges and to oppugne lawful proceedings are to haue their mouthes muzzeled vp and their malice repressed Quaere Whether any Ecclesiasticall Iudge hath conuented Putcase Quest 27. examined and committed any for matters felonious touching the Queenes crowne and dignitie And whether these practises doe not instanter instantius and instantissimè craue the Praemunire That his companions are in case of Praemunire Answere it is out of question for that they haue contrarie to the prerogatiue of the crowne brought in forreine lawes and forreine iurisdiction of more then papall Elders and made diuers Ecclesiasticall constitutions contrarie to the lawes of the realme Nay it were to be wished that they had onely offended against the statute of Prouisors But their deniall of the supremacie is a further point What then doeth that craue Let him speake in his Proctors stile It craueth consideration and the perturbers of the state craue a wiser Proctor As for Ecclesiasticall Iudges it is well knowen that they doe not deale in matters of felonie their actes are cleare if any man doubt they will refolue him Quaere Putcase Quest 28. whether any may bee imprisoned without warrant of law c. Can this libeller shew any warrant Answere he hath to accuse men vniustly If not why doeth he proceede in accusing and is so slowe in prouing If any be imprisoned vnlawfully the lawe is open Neither needeth he to tell vs of Sir Iohn Markeham in this case For that which Sir Iohn Markeham saith we acknowledge for it maketh nothing for the libellers cause Quaere Putcase Quest 29. whether it be not lesse danger to blaspheme the name of God then to speake against a Lord Bishop And whether moe Ministers haue not bene depriued within this seuen yeeres for ceremonies of men then for dronkennesse whoredome c. If it were so dangerous to speake against bishops Answere as this fellow pretendeth they would not be so reuiled nor reuelled at by such reuellers as this The cōparison which he maketh is odious Moe be punished for abusing the Consistorie then for abusing the name of God more doe these consistorials striue about the authoritie of their seate then about Gods honor But what then because some of them offend will they haue all Consistories abolished And therefore let him cease to talke of Bishops and looke bakeward home to the Consistorie that it be well swept and garnished To the second I answere that none are depriued for ceremonies but such as be rebellious against lawes and with no admonitions will be reformed which contumacie is a most odious crime and further I say that the offences which come to the cognition of ecclesiasticall Iudges are as strictlie there dealt withall as in any other of her Maiesties courtes Quaere Putcase Quest 30. why the Ministers may not refuse to weare a Surplesse as a Bishop to vse a Pastorall staffe Because the one is commaunded by Lawe Answere the other is not The Rubrike whereby they would proue the Pastorall staffe concerneth onely orders and ornaments to bee vsed in Sacraments and seruice of the Church and none other matters but suppose both were commaunded yet is it no plea for offenders to say because Iudges offende in some things that they may offende in others which is the course of these men Belike these are the times wherein offenders cal Iudges to answere and felons giue sentence against their superiours Quaere whether seekers of reformation suffer for religion Putcase Quest 31. and conscience in matters of discipline seeing their life is offered them by bishops if they will recant their opinion And whether the Popishbishops persecuted any that differed