replied that they them selues are not far from harlottes which being no Commissioners for the purpose so diligently obserue such proceedings and that they which couete after such knowledge doe feede in theyr myndes vppon no better than carren And as it maie be seene by theyr apparell distincte from honest women that Curtesans are in that populous City so to beable to say it constantly that many thousands of them are therin placed it must procede of experieÌ„ce And it should not be reported in the heariÌ„g of Christians excepte it were euideÌ„tly declared Yea neither theÌ„ also if we rightly vnderstood our Sauiour sayng Ioan. 8. Lethim which is without syn emoÌ„g you cast a stone first at her Wherfore this of many thousaÌ„d harlots in Rome shal staÌ„d for onelie aÌ„d he which dare come forth aÌ„d ê“ue it in dede shal staÌ„d to defence of his honesti Now concerning the yearely pension which the Pope you saie gathereth of them how great is it Mary vppon a thirty thousand duckates And howe manie harlotes are there Manie thousandes you saie But I aske how manie Make a gheasse as you do vpoÌ„ the annual peÌ„sion gathered of them Are there think you thirty thousande harlottes or thereabout Nay are ther three or foure thousands of So many as you would haue seme to be there Surely within this number you can not welcome because ye affirme that manie thousandes are there Goe to then if there can not by your accompt be lesse than three thousand for of two thousand only no man euer sayeth there are many thousandes euery one paieing ten ducketes by the yeare the whole pension maie easely be made vp And thinke you that any man disposed to make a vaÌ„tage would gather no more of such persons as so lightly come by their mony If but three thousand tippling houses were in anie Citie a very fauorable Prince would not make so litle of them for excises c. as thirty thousand duckates by the yeare But if he were a couetous and greedie Prince hauing suche a foule companie in his Citie of whome he might take large exactions euen for iustice sake would he be contented with an yearely pension of so litle value So few thousand duckattes agree not with so manie thousand harlottes and therefore ye shal doe wel to make areuew and mend the lye where it is You procede further as it were to a greater mater which if it be so ye make a third lye although in deede I suppose that it is but the second lye in this place set more abrode aÌ„d dilated For he maintayneth you saie brothel houses c. How proue ye that I think ye wil tel vs here again of the thirty thousaÌ„d duckats specially because ye speke also of a most fiâ—thy lucre to which duckats we haue aÌ„swered before And now we say further that he taketh no annual vantage of harlotes at al but such as commeth from euerie one that dwelleth in the Citie by auncieÌ„t tribut and custome But you saie further he maintaineth them I would ye were so maintained But by what meanes Defendeth hâ— theyr cause as he would the causes of honest persons Doth he prouoke them by immunities and priuileges to tarie Is he offended when anie good man either mercifully doth conuerte them to a better kinde of lyfe or iustlie punishe them for offending againste the Lawe Wil ye see how they be maintained They muste not dwell in haunted or great places but in bycorners and lanes They must not ryde abrode in coches or chariotes but walke a foote in the streates They muste not goe in apparell all lyke other women but weare a shoorte vayle of one certaine colour vppon theyr heades that they maie be knowen for harlottes And if they lyke strumpets doe offende against anie of these orders they paie a greate forfait Of whiche pointe if ye will gather that the Pope serueth therein his owne lust and lucre what men are ye so to peruerte that for whiche praise is due vnto him Shoulde he not punishe them at all Or in punishing them should he not doe it to the terror and example of others Ye will aunswere perchaunce that he shoulde haue none suche in the Citie Obiecte then onelie that against him and slander him no more with procuring aduantage in maintaininge of whores nor defame hym no more that he seeketh his owne lucre by settinge greate Forefaites or trybutes vppon heÌ„ And then coÌ„cerning the permitting of theÌ„ in the City If Canelâ— aÌ„d sinkes becoÌ„mendable theÌ„ let M. levvel crie on as he did in his â—ast sermon against him that M. Harding vvil defend 〈◊〉 cause of harlottes I aunswere you that in temporal gouermente it is not euil in respecte of a worse which els would follow to lette harlottes and bawdes * lye with dishonor aÌ„d shame in the sinkes of great Cities like as Minstrels Daunsers Iugglers Vsurers and other of vnhoneste and vile behauiour of life are suffered to remaine euen in LoÌ„don it selfe and that when al the Superintendents of EnglaÌ„d shal be at theyr conuocation And this I speake touching ciuill policie for concerning the spiritual gouernement there is in Rome daily and vehement preaching against them In the beginning of Lent and before Easter the Pope doth solemly accurse theÌ„ Besides this they shal make no testament before theyr death nor afterwards be buried emong Christians except they did repent in tyme of theyr life How say you then Proue not these things in the iudgemeÌ„t of an indifferent man that the Pope wil haue no harlots at al in Rome if either experience of ciuil policy should perswade it or force of his spiritual sword and sentence could winne it And yet dare you so lewdly to write that he mainteineth brothel houses c. Of a monasterie made by the blessed Pope Pius Quartus charges and charity in which the Harlottes conuerted from their wicked trade of euill life through publike preaching or priuate exhorting should be receaued and kept in all honestie of such a house and maintenaunce of them to such a life we haue hearde and they which haue ben at Rome are certaine But of any procuring of their contynuaunce in their filthe and harlotrie you haue heard perchaunce but you should not haue so stoutly obiected it before ye had bene more sure of it Bring furth your Author that we may see whether ye be not light of credit Or proue your owne sayings true if your selues be the Authours that ye be not conuicted of impudencie If these things would haue pleased vs that is Apolo harlottes brothel houses c we needed not to haue departed from these mens felowship emoÌ„g whom such enormities be in their chiefe pride and price I would this were true Confut 170. For then no doubt but if ye were in company of good Catholikes such as be as sorie as you for enormities and coÌ„plaine thereof as hartely as you though not so vndiscretely ye would repent you of
ready to diminsh the numbre of Ceremonies that the greatest papist in the world would not aske more fauor in the questioÌ„ aÌ„d cause of theÌ„ First if the Scripture doth alow anie order or fashioÌ„ it is not vaine If the whole Church hath generally receiued ani it is not vaine If it be but a particular Ceremony of one couÌ„trie and be not agaiÌ„st the faith or good maners it is not vaine Yea if anie thing be in it which helpeth to amendement of life it is not vaine By so many waies and for so many causes a ceremony maie wel continue as ye shal finde in that verie epistle of S. Augustin Epi. 119. c. 18. 19. And had you the face so to alleage this holy Doctours complaining of ceremonies as though he would haue as few as you What Sacrament haue you about which ye doe occupie oile What thinke you of the fast of lent What of Alleluia betwixt Easter and Witsontide What vse haue you of any Octaues Cap. 7. 15. 18. Yet of these Ceremonies he maketh mentioÌ„ in the foresaied Epistle and reckoneth that they are to be vsed and regarded Gregory c. if the Church saieth he shall depend vppon one man Apolog. it will at once fal doune to the ground Ye belie him shamfully he hath no such words at al. Conf. 203 Yet the protestaÌ„t may think this impossible that you should haue no more regarde of your honestye Let him seeke then if he be learned and iudge by his owne senses whether any such proposition is ther to be found But is there not a like vnto it Ye as so like as Rome is to Constantinople or Gregorie S. Peters successour to Nestorius of Constantinople an heretike For if a man should seeke for his life to find in that epistle but some resemblance of that which the Apology reporteth he findeth no more but this which I shal declare for th'vnlerned sake Iohn Bishope of Constantinople affected the title of Vniuersal Bishope S. Gregorie then Pope of Rome coÌ„plaineth thereof to Mauritius the Emperour declaring good causes aÌ„d reasons why such presumptioÌ„ should not be suffred Emong other he maketh this argument Lib. 4. epist. 3â— Surely we haue knoweÌ„ manie Prelats of the Church of CoÌ„staÌ„tinople to haue falleÌ„ into the goulfe of heresie and to haue ben not only heretiks but archeheretikes also Nowe for example he nameth Nestorius and Macedonius then bringeth he in therevpon this conclusion If therefore in that church vndoubtedly of Constantinople anie pul vnto himself that name of Vniuersal Bishope ergo which hath ben the iudgement of all good men the whole church which God forbid falleth froÌ„ her state wheÌ„ he falleth which is called Vniuersall An excellent argument vndoubtedly For if the only or Vniuersall Bishope should be at CoÌ„staÌ„tinople that see hauing no priuilege of coÌ„tinuing stil in the right faith as appereth by the archeheretikes which sate ther and al the world being bound to obey the Vniuersal Bishope this one absurditie grauÌ„ted a thousand would folow and that one Bishoppe erring all the whole Church should go a straie Loe this is al that may seme to geue any occasioÌ„ of reporting that which the Apologie hath attributed to S. Gregorie And wher find we here that if the church depeÌ„d vpon one maÌ„ â–ª it must at once fal doune to the ground Wil they yet defend theyr lying Or dare they yet stil abuse the old fathers â—s the Church aÌ„d that Church al one in coÌ„cluding Is depeÌ„ding vpon one man and that man al a like The successor of S. Peter and Bishop in that chaire in which neuer yet was fouÌ„d any archeheretike to set furth naughty doctrin is he al one with a Bishope of ConstaÌ„tinople â–ª which neither succedeth any Apostle and hath bene a defender of heresies let vs see now therfore whether you wil coÌ„fesse your errour in mistaking S. Gregorie Or mainteine your impudencie in misusing of him The bishâ—ps sayth Bernard who now haue yâ— charge of Gods church Apolog. ar not teachers but deceauers they are not feders but begilers thei are not prelats but pilates These words spake Bernard of yâ— B. who nameth him self the highest Bishop of al of yâ— other Bishops likwise which then had the place of gouernement How then Confut. Did S. Bernard forsake al papistrie and abandon the Pope because of those faâ—ltes which he fouÌ„d If he did why taried he in his moÌ„kes cote vnto his death If he did not what vnwise meÌ„ be you to for sake the Church for euil maners sake But coÌ„sider further WhoÌ„ called he deceauers â–ª begâ—â—ers pilats Al the whole order of Bishopes and gouernoures of the Church froÌ„ the Pope dounward Or spake he of some certain only If he noted but some certain aÌ„d â—heÌ„ worthely those other some which were not infected might wel preserue the state of the Church in truth of maners and doctrine that ye need not to feare an vtter destruction 〈◊〉 it and so through wretched foly depart out of it If he spake generally of al then wil I coÌ„fesse that ye are not so much to be blamed for your departing from that Church nor for anie your applieyng of S. Bernardes Authorie to that purpose But because I am sure this is false therefore I charge you and blame you How proue I this I proue it by those very bookes in which as you saie the foresaid wordes against the Pope and Bishopes are For concerning Eugenius him selfe he saieth in the third boke after much complaint or reproufe made of the euil maners of the Court of Rome Haec ad te Berna de CoÌ„s lib â–ª 3 noÌ„ de te scribo I writ this vnto thee not of thee And immediatly he declareth by example how Eugenius refused bagges of monie which came out of Germany and condemned a greate riche bisshop by likelyhode notwithstaÌ„ding his mony And how he gaue of his own vnto an other poore bisshop to geue vnto the officers in the Court least the bisshop should seeme niggish and vncourteous if he should haue nothing rewarded them Now Doth it greaue thee to heare this And I ê™ S. Bernard doe tell it so muche the more gladly by how much thou hearest it the more greauously The Pope theâ— him selfe was none of those deceauers begilers or pilates whom you mention Furth then were al the Cardinalles and Bishops deceiuers c. No neither al they as you may reade it proued in the fourth boke of that worke by the exaÌ„ples of two great Legats The one was Cardinal Martine Cardinal Martin which being sent legate into Dacia a countrie ful of gold and siluer returned yet so poore that for lacke of mony and horses he coulde scarse reach vnto Florence The Bishope of which place gaue him an horse without mention making of any mater to be done for it Yet the legat aÌ„d Cardinal Martin was 〈◊〉 soner at Rome but the bishop of Florence
put case these Abbates and Bishops haue no knowledge Apolog. What if they vnderstaÌ„d nothing what religion is nor howe we ought to thinke of God I put case the pronouncing and ministring of the lawe be decayed in Priestes and good counsell faile in the Elders as the Prophete Micheas saieth the nyght to be vnto them in stede of a vision and the darkenesse in stede of propheÌ„siyng Or as Esaias saieth what if all the watchmen of the Citie are become blinde What if yâ— salt haue lost his propre streÌ„gth and sauerines And as Christ sayeth be good for no vse scant worth the casting on the dunghill The lesse knowledge you would make the bishops and Abbats to haue Con. 280. the more miracle it wil be that without knowledge they haue such learning as their bookes and preachings and doinges doe testifie Take for an example the Catholike Bishops of England Is there among them all any one against whom you may come with your textes of Micheas Esaias or Christ our Sauiour Yet you put the case they haue no knowledge I aunswere that your case is a verie hard one But yet to remedie somewhat this matter if our Bisshops should be so vnlearned and ignorant I thinke it were better for the common wealth to set them to Schole than to put them in prison Or if they be nothing mete for lerniÌ„g to set them rather at libertie being suche as can hurte the procedinges nothing for lacke of good life and knowledge than to kepe them in so preciselie and politikely as though euerie worde that they should speake were able to coÌ„found an heretik Howe then if the Pope haue seene none of these thinges Apolog. and haue neuer reade either the Scriptures or the old Fathers or yet his owne Councels I aunswer â–ª but first Con. 284 I will also put a case What if there were no shame in a man What if there were no regarde of the sight of God What if in all thinges he should seeke for this onlie howe to fill the peoples eares and to make them gather of an exceading greate word somewhat at the least Wâ—â—ld there be anie discretion or staie in suche a one of putting cases of deniyng moste manifeste truthes of slaundering worthie persons and goeyng against sense and reason So is it with the Authours of the Apologie For how theÌ„ say they if the Pope haue neuer readen either the scriptures or the old fathers or yet his owne CouÌ„cels How then Are ye not ashamed to put such a case as neither euer yet happened nor euer is like to come to passe by any reason Shew the occasion of this your suspition and feare Declare your selfe to be of greater experience and consideration than those are which quake for feare where no cause is Name anie one Pope that hath not bene so learned that you might welthink him to haue readen the Scriptures Ye can name none at al. You put only a case with how then if he hath neuer readen the Scriptures And I aunswer that if it be so it is a great miracle And that except you bring furth some certificate of it it is not to be beleued But neither you meant it I suppose to affirme it only ye thought it enoughe to speake much as thoughe you could bring furth somwhat And to leaue it to your Reader to suspect somwhat although you proued nothing I confesse vnto you I can not tel what to saye to such What thens and What yfs But if you haue any arte in iudging of them I pray you if the skye should fal were not many larkes like to be taken And if such kindes of What yfs as you haue put might be folowed in other examples were not manie fooles like to be made and preferred by it and many Wyll Sommers would they not be found in England which would quickly saie what if all the Councell be vnlearned And what if poore knaues haue as great a gift of wisedome and knowledge as the Noble and Learned of the world Thus far concerning this matter The 11. Chapiter confuting a blasphemous Lye BY manie smal practises at length an habite is goten and he that refrayneth not his tongue and thought in the lesse shal make it so fond and slipperie that it will offende in the greater And the Apologie of England whyles it toke not good heede inough to speake trulie of men it is come to that blind audacitie that it belieth God him selfe For this cause therefore that the Authours thereof maie the better consider of theyr rashnes and the Indifferent Reader may the more plainelie see that he muste not truste euerie Sprite I place this lie by it selfe as a singular one without felowes and without coÌ„parison and I call it as it deserueth a Blasphemous lye For thus they saie in defence of theyr discession from the Catholike Church Though we haue departed from that Church whiche these men cal Catholike Apolog. by that meanes get vs enuy amongst them that want skyl to iudge yet thys is inough for vs it ought to be inough for euerie wyse and good man and one that maketh accompt of euerlasting life that we haue gone from that Churche which had power to erre which Christ who can not erre told so long before it should erre Where find ye this in anie Ghospel Con. 322 Or why tel ye not your Reader of it that he also might perceaue it Or why directe ye him not to the place at the leaste where he might seeke it Can it be any other than wicked impudencie to make Christ saie that which he neuer saied If Christ hath foreâ—old it in deede that our Churche shoulde erre shewe vs that and there is nothing to be replied Fathers Councels Stories Apologies Replies Reioynders al other labours maie be spared onelie that place were to be shewed where Christ hath so plainly coÌ„founded vs. For this you maie be sure if ye can proue that our Church maie erre you shal perswade al the sort of vs to forsake it and get vs to an other of whiche we maie be sure it can not erre But forasmuch as ye can bring furthe no such word of Christ why make ye such a wretched crake as though ye were departed from a church that may erre to a better congregation or as though Christ should beare witnes vnto the goodnes of your doeynges by his foretelling that our Churche should erre Here ye are to be pressed aÌ„d here should ye be enforced to aunswer For by this place it will quickely be seen who hath woÌ„ne or who hath lost For if it were S. Ambrose or S. Augustin that did affirme anie thing the Catholike would so farre accepte it as he should see other Fathers to agree to it and the heretike woulde so litle make of it that if all the fathers bysides did saie with them he woulde not be bound to folow theyr authority because they al were meÌ„ But if Christ
plaied at dice neuer so much The Popes would needes make 〈◊〉 the realme triâ—utary to them Apolog. Ergo 〈◊〉 most iustly haue forsaken them It is not for Diuines to alleage anâ— such temporal cause Confut. â—49 of mony mater 〈◊〉 their defence in departiÌ„g froÌ„ the churcâ—â— For seeing that the Popes Authority â—â—meth froÌ„ God what discharge of my 〈◊〉 is that to me if he do more than 〈◊〉 shuld by right and Conscience Do noâ— temporal princes somtimes oppresse theiâ— Subiectes and yet continew in their place and authority aboue their subiectsâ— Your Argument therefore and fact is naught And if the argument were true yet haue you no occasion to depart from the See of Rome vnto which in Quene Maries time you were reconciled considering that no tribute was required of you no not so much as the restitution of the Abbey landes The Second Chapter conteining certaine Absurdities of the English Apologie They be not mad at this day Apolog. so many free cities so many Kings so many Princes which haue falleÌ„ away from the seate of Rome and haue rather ioyned themselues to the Gospell of Christ. HOW thinke you then Confut. .16 by coÌ„mon reason May any Protestant say that AL free Cities AL Kinges AL Princes and AL Christen men and womeÌ„ froÌ„ the highest to the lowest were mad in these last ix hundred yeares in which yow disdaine and yet confesse the Pope to haue ben obeied of all Christendome and him selfe in so saying be nothing madde Or can you reproue your Aduersaries if they be so vnmannerly and hasty in their termes as to call yours so many free Cities c. madde where your selues iudge that all your Forefathers for hundred of yeares together haue bene madde when they all folowe â–ª with one consent Papistrie If it were a synne in the Heluetianâ— to deliuer their own countrie from foreâ— gouernment Apolog. specially wheÌ„ they were 〈◊〉 proudly and tyranniously oppressed yet to burthen vs with other mens faultes or them with the faultes of theire forefathers it is against all right and reason Why then do you obiect against the Catholiques the euill liues and deedes of Popes Confut. 177. Cardinalles Monkes Friers Priestes which may be founde in anie sorte or condition of men after some continuance of tyme and age And why tel you abiding in Englande tales vppon Italy Spayne or other countries of Aloisios Casios Diasios and others to burthen thereby the knowen and auncient Church In tymes past Apolog. where the first Christians our forefathers in making their prayers to God did tourne them selues towardes the Easte there were that sayed they worshipped the Sunne and reckened it as God And you Confut. .191 to proue your selues the sweete Sonnes and exacte folowers of Antiquitie haue altered the olde maner and custom of the Catholike Church by charginge your Ministers to praye towardes the sowth and that in the chiefest tyme and place of all your deuotion and Religion If you knew whether to turne your selues after the putting awaye of the olde faith and ceremonies thereof why chose you the south rather than the East And why remembred ye not the first Christians vsage Except notwithstanding the remembrance of it you regarded not what they had don and practised How absurdly then cal you them the first Christians and your forefathers whom ye disdain or be ashamed to folow in the maner of their praying That old Father Augustine denyeth it to be leefull for a monke to spende his tyme slouthfully Apolog. and vnder pretensed holinesse to liue all vpon others And who so thus liueth an olde father Apollonius likeneth him to a theefe See the pity which these men take of the old Fathers Confut. 239. because their sayinges are not regarded and see the pityful absurdity in which themselues are taken whiles they would seeme to alowe the old Fathers S. Augustine liketh not the idlenes of Monkes but ydlenes put away did he not alow the order of them His booke is De opere Monachorum of the labour of Monkes prouing that none of them must so thinke hym selfe addicted to the seruice of God in praying reading or in spirituall exercises that he should not sette his handes to corporal labour And he maketh it not a case of necessitie that euerie Monke must labour but he impugneth theyr sayinges which made a necessitie of it not to labour wyth the bodie for theyr lyuing but to serue God and man by the labour of mynd only as in praying preaching and such like Nowe therefore if S. Augustine would haue had the very Order it selfe and profession of Monkes destroyed he should haue made short and saied not that such monks as wold hold the opinioÌ„ that they should not labour bodily ought to be sette therevnto but simplie and plainly he would haue concluded that all Munkerie should be taken away And then how could he make a whole Booke De opere Monachorum of the labour of Monkes except he would find some what where nothing is and build a house without labourers But you whom the idlenes of Monkes offendeth and the neglecting of the old Fathers orders shew to vs I pray you your refourmed Monasteries Let Heretikes shevv their monasteries And if your factes haue declared before and yet hytherto your rayling tongues can testifie that ye hate the verie Order and Rule of Monkes nor would abide a laboriouse and a vertuous Monke in your companie how vnsensiblie doe you confesse the olde Fathers to haue spoken againste idle Monkes whereby they signifie no abhomination to be in the Order it selfe your selues allwayes so mockingly and spitefully handeling not distinctly idle Monkes but without all addition Monkes As maye appeare by Iohn Foxes no litle booke of Actes and MonumeÌ„ts to name one for all and by your great muse in the next sentence folowing these words of which I speake where you wote not whether to name them droues or heardes of Monks as though no other title might be geuen vnto them besides that which is proper for brute beastes Concerning the old Father Apollonius if idle Monkes be theeues what call you them which doe robb and spoile not only the idle but the laborious and holy Monkes And robbe them not of their house land and goodes only but of their fame and estimation and robbe againe not only the Monkes but the iust and true owners of such goodes as were bestowed vpon Monasteries But put the case al Monks had bene theeues He that robbeth a theefe is he not him selfe a theefe And if by stelth a true mans landes be taken from him should it not returne in conscience vnto him againe if truth and Iustice were sought for and not gaine or priuate lust How well therefore your Procedinges agree with truth and honestie Apolog. lette it be iudged by the spoyle of Monkes and Monasteries The old Councell at Carthage commaunded nothing to be readde in Christ hys Congregation
marie were much greater After which maner a very discreet and sadde Merchante of London might saie vnto you that for greate good cause Apology wold be so much ouerseen mary aut integra percipiant aut ab integris arceantur either saieth he let them receaue the whole De cons. dist â— caâ— CoÌ„peri eihter let theÌ„ be kept from the whole Of receiuing therefore he speaketh not of geuing Why is it not al in a maner one and can both be receiued except both be geuen No thei cannot But who shal constraine the Priest to geue both Or who shal coÌ„pel the Bishopes whom God hath set to gouerne his church who shal compel theÌ„ to make a law that both be geaueÌ„ For as they sâ—al see it expedient for the present state of the peple ouer which thei haue authority so may they to some geue both to some geue one to some in forme of bread to other in forme of wine aÌ„d some also they may kepe froÌ„ receiuing in anie kind at al like as by their discretion they shal see the diuersity of cases to require And if ye could iÌ„pugne this by any means yet could ye not iÌ„pugn it by Gelasiê° aÌ„d ê“ue by him that both kinds ought to be geueÌ„ SecoÌ„dly I note against you that neither the peoples receiuing in both is proued by Gelasius to be of absolute necessity vnder peril of committing sacrilege For he speketh but of one certain kiÌ„d of persons How proue I that By his own words For in his coÌ„muandement that they which were noted vnto him should either receiue the whole or abstain froÌ„ the whole he laieth in this cause betwen QuoniaÌ„ nescio c. Because they be staid with a superstitioÌ„ I caÌ„ not tel what ergo take superstitioÌ„ awaie and the case of the Receiuer is altered And he doth not forbid a vertuouse and right beleuing maÌ„ to receiue in one kind vpoÌ„ good coÌ„sideratioÌ„s Shew ye now â–ª that the sacrament ought to be geaueÌ„ in both kinds â–ª aÌ„d that some sorte of people might not receiue vnder one alone or confesse that ye haue made a duble lie vpon Gelasius What can be sayd more plainly then that which Ambrose saith Apolog. bread and wine remaine stil the same they were before and yet are chaynged into an other thing As plaine as he speaketh Confut. 94. you vnderstand him not and if you do because nothing can be saied more plaine then doe ye abuse him most shamefully The beginning of the sentence or periode out of whiche you take certaine wordes for your purpose Lib. 4. de Sacr. c. 4. is this in englishe If there be so great power in the word of our Lord Iesus that thinges which were not should begin to be how muche more is it effectual and workinge vt sint quae erant in aliud commutentur that thinges which were be and be chaunged into an other thing Vpon the construction of which latine wordes our present question consisteth The Apologie coÌ„strueth thus â–ª vt that vnderstaÌ„d say they â–ª panis vinuÌ„ bread and wine Sint quae erant should remaine styll the same they were before coÌ„mutentur in aliud and should be chaunged into an other thing Now the true interpretatioÌ„ is thus to be made Vt quae erant that the thinges whiche were Sint be in aliud commutentur and be chaunged into an other So that quae eraÌ„t is nominatiue case to the verbe sint and not panis vinuÌ„ as the Apologie faineth For in S. Ambrose argument there is this antithesis or opposition from not being to being and from being to an other being As if God hath made nothing somewhat muche more of somewhat he may make another thiÌ„g Before the world began the Heauens waters and Earth had no existance or being at al. God spake the word and so of nothing he made theÌ„ to haue a beginning and being but bread had a being when it was yet vnconsecrated and after the wordes of consecraâ—â—on it keepeth stil a being because it is not annihilated and vtterly made nothing yet it keepeth not still the same being it had before because it is no more natural bread but is turned by the omnipotencie of Gods worde into the bodie of Christe As in example of the meate whiche we eate be it fishe or fleash it had a being in it selfe before we did eate it â–ª anâ— after it is once digested it hath a being for we are not fedde with nothing and our meates are not annihilated in vs but conuerted into our bodily substance yet they keepe not the same being whiche they had before For then should theyr bodies which fed alwaies vpon veale mutton capons wodcockes c. consist not of mans fleash but of calueflesh shepes flesh c. And such men were quickely to be set to schole or reformed in theyr opinion least by much vsing of the foresayd meates they might proue in theyr own concepte as wise as Calues Capons or Wodcockes This example wel considered it will appeere that S. Ambrose saieth right lie that quae erant sint the things which were keepe a being as bread dothe when it is consecrated but not as the Apologie abuseth S. Ambrose that Sint quae erant they should remaine styll the same they were before For bread is conuerted by consecration into the bodye of Christe and so keepeth styll a being but not the same whiche it had before Cyrill saieth Apolog. when we come to receiue these mysteries all grosse Imaginations must quite be banished Grosse Imaginations in S. Cyrill Confut. 107. doe signifie not the Catholique beliefe of the Faithfull whiche confesse them selues to receiue vnder the forme of bread perfecte God and perfecte man One Iesus Christe but the carnall thoughtes and opinions of Nestorius and lyke Heretiques whiche diuide Christe that is but one and imagine that the Blessed Virgine was Mother of Christ man not of the worde God as though the manhoode had anie personall subsistence separate from the Godheade Of whiche false principle it woulde folow that the bodie of Christ which Christians receiue in the Sacrament should be the bodie of a pure man And therforâ— he inueigheth against him and saieth Num hominis comestionem c â–ª what doest thou pronounce this ouâ— Sacrament to be the eating of a man and doest thou dryue irreuereÌ„tly the mind of the faithful to grosse imaginations c. Now the Catholikes which beleue that they receiue not the fleash of a bare man which could not but minister verie carnal and grosse thoughtes but the fleash of God and man that by consideration of the presence of suche 〈◊〉 maiestie our vnderstaÌ„dings should yeldâ— vnto his wordes by faith and put awaie all carnall Imaginations concerning the mysteries iudge you whether we be giltie of grosse imaginations and whether you haue rightlie vnderstanded S. Cyrill or no. As Chrysostome very aptly writeth Apolog. we say that the
came also thither And seeking the fauâ—â— of his frinds in a certain cause of his owâ— at length he coÌ„meth to Cardinal Martin Yea sayth he Decepisti me Nesciebâ—tibi imminere negotiuÌ„ tolle equuÌ„ tuuÌ„â— ecce in stabulo est you haue deceued me I knew not ye had any sute in haÌ„d Take your horse to you loe yonder he is in the stable This is one and he I truste no deceauer or Pilate An other Cardinal Gauâ—rid is Gaudfridus Bishope of Cartres which many yeres together was at his own charges Embassadour and legat froÌ„ the Pope in the costs of Gascoigne Of whoÌ„ he telleth that ther was a sturgeoÌ„ brought vnto him by a certain priest but I wil not take him sayd the Cardinall except I pay for him Againe a Ladie of the towne where he lodged brought vnto him for deuotioÌ„ and good wil three treen disshes with a towel he behâ—ld theÌ„ he praised theÌ„ but in any case he would not take them And at both these tymes S. Bernard was present And saieth herevpoÌ„ vnto Eugenius O that we might haue store of such meÌ„ geueÌ„ vnto vs as thes were whoÌ„ I brefly haue spokeÌ„ of If therefore the Pope him selfe was good and some Cardinalles and Bishopes were holie men how can you withoâ— impudencie drawe S. Bernard to such 〈◊〉 sense as thoughe he should condemâ—â— the whole See and Church of Romeâ— And if as I saied before you thinke him not to speake generally what helpeth it your cause in departing from the Church to proue that some Prelates be Pilats Secondly I might wel and truely say that S. Bernard speaketh against the maners of the Court of Rome and not against the faith of the Church of Rome And though he should name the Pope for his euill behauiour which he doth not a Pilate yet concerning his Authoritie and office he geueth vnto him all the titles of excellencie that are found in the Scriptures from Abel to Christ. Affirming besides him to be the shepheard not only of shâ—pe but of all other Shepheardes also â–ª and Others to haue bene called to take parte of the cure but hym to haue fulnes of power with other such wordes more of like sense Thirdly I aunswere he neuer spake so vnreuerentlie of the Pope in all hys workes And that the testimony which you alleage is not in the bookes ad Eugenium The old Father Epiphanius saieth Apolog. it is an horrible wickednes Epiph. and a sinne not to be suffred Haere 61. for any man to set vp any picture of Christ him selfe See how these felowes caÌ„ amplifie and â—et furth a lie Confut. â—35 Epiphanius they thinke â—aketh for theÌ„ and therfore they dresse â—im in their own colours Ye find not in hiÌ„â—either these greauous and mightie terâ—es horrible wickednes and Synne â—ot to be suffred Neither these precise â—onclusions that any man shal not set â—p anie picture Neither this aggrauaâ—ing additioÌ„ of Christ him self He speaâ—eth quietly and he speaketh not geneâ—ally but against a certaine kind of Imaâ—es or honor done to them as appeareth by the words istiusmodi vela such kinâ— of veiles And he prescribeth nothinâ— against the Image of our Sauiour Christâ— If ye wil not leaue this place but proâ—â— that it maketh against Images Pluckâ—â— out first these lies and repaire the testimonie making it neither better neither worse then Epiphanius doth permit you and then shal you be otherwise answered The old fathers Origen Chriysosâ—â— exhort yâ— people to reade the scriptures Apolog. to bye them bookes to reason at home betwixt theÌ„selues of diuine maters wiâ—es with their husbaÌ„ds parents with their childreÌ„ These men condeÌ„ne yâ— scriptures as deade â—lemeÌ„ts And as much as eueâ— they may barre the people from them Ye ioyne these two Fathers togeather as though they both confirmed your lyes Confut. 236. But Origene neither speaketh of byeing bookes Ho. 9. in Leuit ca. â—16 nsither of reasoning at home 〈◊〉 the scriptures but of comiÌ„g to church aÌ„â— heariÌ„g the scriptures and of thinking afterwardes at home vpon the keping of them in mynde and folâ—wing them Then as concerning S. Chrysostome he speaketh agaynst suche as neglected the reading of Scriptures and thought this to he a sufficient excuse for them that they were no Monkes Ho. 2. in Matth. as who shuld saâ—e we haue wife children and household with other things besides to thinke vpon and therefore it is not our vocation to looke in the lawe of God and by that to amende our liues He speaketh likewise against other which loued to haue faier and trym books of the Gospel for ostentation sake not to reade them and profit by them Of which sort ther may be found at this preseÌ„t som in the world which liuing loosly and regarding their soules health slenderly cary yet the testameÌ„t or some parte thereof bouÌ„d vp in goldeÌ„ forel and hang it about their necks like a Iewel But as for the biyng of Scriptures he spaketh it by occasioÌ„ oÌ„ly in reprouiÌ„g such as had books in their cupbords aÌ„d no vnderstaÌ„ding or sense of them in their mind For after he had saied Hom. 3â— in loan This hauing of bookes coÌ„meth of the Iewish ambition and craking vnto whom the coÌ„maundementes were geuen in letters and vnto vs not so but in the tables of our hart which are of fleash least he shuld sem to derogate somwhat hereby vnto the written Scriptures he addeth yet I do not forbid it to gette books yea rather I pray you most ernestly get them but so that we maie repere often in our minde both the letters and sence the of them He was not therefore so careful of it that euery man shoulde bye the scripture but this he studied for that euery man should be diligeÌ„t in bearing away of the scriptures readen â–ª or preached in the open church Proue ye now that S. Chrysostome exhorted all and singular of his people to bye them bookes especially in the vulgar tounge And iudge ye whether he had so little discretion to moâ—e al therevnto which verie few could bring to passe the raritie and pryce of the written bookes being considered Nowe as concerning the other lie that wiues at home with theyr husbandes or children with theyr parentes should reason betwixt themselues of diuine maters either I vnderstand not your englishe or els ye abuse S. Chrysostom most shamefully For if ye meane that al that reasoniÌ„g which you imagin signifieth no more but that the father shuld instruct his sonne aÌ„d the wife geue eare to her husbandes good counsel then surely you must pardoÌ„ me I neuer vnderstood this much before that reasoning of diuine maters should haue so litle question in it But if reasoning betwixt parties doth importe an argueing to aÌ„d fro with obiections solutions replies resolutions diuises suppositioÌ„s c. And if reasoning of diuine maters doth signifie the questioÌ„ proponed not to be of so smal
hys Prophetes often and ernestly commaundeth the King c. To wryte out the booke of the Lawe for hym selfe Ye bring this place to proue Conf. 303 that temporal Princes haue as much to doe with Religion as Bishoppes and Priestes For the Kinge saye you muste write out the Lawe Deut. 17. But whie leaue ye out that whiche foloweth accipiens exemplar takynge the Copie of the Priestes of the Trybe of Leuie By which woordes it is clearlie perceyued that it is not in the Kynges handes to meddle with Scriptures but as he receaueth them of his betters in that authoritie the Priestes King Ioas bridled the riot and arrogancie of the Priestes Apol. We finde no such wordes in the text Conf. 307 4. Reg. 12. Iosue receiued coÌ„maundements Apolo specially touching religion We haue readen the whole Chapiter Iosue 1. Confut. .305 and we find no suche specialities there but onelie that he shoulde passe ouer Iordane And diuide the lande of Promise and be of good cumforte and strength with other lyke woordes all to the Temporall Gouernement of the â—eople but of Religion Sacrifice Praying for the people expounding the Law c. no one sentence Yea rather as it appereth in the first setting of him in his office the scripture saieth expressly 〈◊〉 any thing be to be done for this Iosue Eleazar the Priest shal aske counsel 〈◊〉 the Lorde Nu 27. At his worde vndoubtedly at the Priests he shal goe furth and come in c. Which of the two then 〈◊〉 nerer to God aÌ„d worthier by his office He that speaketh himselfe with God or he that heareth God his word by any interpretatour He which geaueth the commaundement or he which must obey it Doe no more so with the scriptures aÌ„d if none shal let you to make your own sense vpon them yet neuer take so much vpon you to put in the text it self which is not of the Scripture And further consider whether this be not to adde and take awaie from the Scripture to make that of the plural nuÌ„ber which is of the singular only To suppresse those wordes which being put in doe dissolue the knoâ— of the question To put that in whiche is not at al in the text To alleage sayinges that can not be found And to misconstrue sentences that are founde And then when you haue considered all this conferre therewith that which ye finde in the Apocalipse of S. Iohn that If any man adde vnto these things Apo vl God shal lay vpon him the plagues that are written in this booke And if anie man diminishe of the wordes of the booke of this prophecy God shal take his part out of the booke of life and out of the holy Citie and from these things which are writteÌ„ in this booke The 7. Chapiter conteining the flat lyes of the Apologie There haue ben wittely procured by the Bishop of Rome certaine persons of eloquence enough Apolog. not vnlcarned neither which should put their helpe to his cause now almost desperate NAme the Pope which hath procured them Confut. 9 Name the Persone which haue ben procured and ye shal either confesse your faultes or stand gyltie for two lyes Proue also that he wylely procured ani meÌ„ to help his cause because this word wylely maketh your lye aÌ„d slauÌ„der more greeuous For either you meane that he did it in dâ—de and that he would not be sene to doe it either that he did it boldly and manifestly but yet vsed a witty and subtil meane vnto it ConcerniÌ„g the first he neded not to be ashamed to defend his cause He might boldly without reproch choose any of the lerned aÌ„d eloqueÌ„t Catholiks for that purpose For the faith which the whole Churche opeÌ„ly coÌ„fesseth â–ª what dishonesty at al is it to coÌ„maund aloud that the best lerned shuld declare it and by declaring of it coÌ„meÌ„d it that wheÌ„ iust cause is geueÌ„ of it it mai be knoweÌ„ for a truth sufficieÌ„tly pued ConcerniÌ„g the second it were a small part of policy to labour by a fancy to perswade the whole world in a falsitie Princes desirous to restrain the gospel sought many wayes Apolog. but preuailed nothing now almost the whole world doth begyn to opeÌ„ their eies to behold yâ— light What place hath your gospel in Spain Conf. 1â— What place in Italy What successe hath your gospel in France WheÌ„ Lady Marie was once proclaimed Queene how preuailed your preachiÌ„g Did ye not flee beyond sea into free Cities And why into those more thaÌ„ into ani other but because ye preuaile not with Princes but such as cal you to their fauour of whoÌ„ yet ther are so few and so weak in al ChristeÌ„dom that in the rekning they make a litle somme And now say you the whole world almost doth begyn to open their eyes A worshipful begining after xvâ— yearis But why say ye not without almost that al the whole world begiÌ„neth to opeÌ„ their eyes You haue a coÌ„science I trow in making a lye and therfore you add almost How much theÌ„ lacketh I pray you If Loâ—aÌ„ Paris Bonony Padua SalamaÌ„ca CoÌ„pluâ—uÌ„ and other great Vniuersities but smal â—ortioÌ„s of the whole if these were lightened by your gospel would ye put out your almost What meane ye by this almoste Perchance all is ouercomed with you sauing Rome itselfe and the small Cities about it Nay haue ye not greate and Princely states as of Florence Vrbine Genua Ferrara Millaine Venice Treuers Mentes Colone Salisburg and the Catholike Cantones And sundrie Countries as Bauarie Sauoy Burgundie Loraine Brabrant Flaunders Holland Artoys Henaut Friseland Guelderland Cleueland Prussia Carinthia And many Ilandes as Sicilia Corsica Sardinia Maltha and the ZelaÌ„ds And many kingdoms as Naples FraÌ„ce Spaine Pole Bohemie Hungary and Portugale and the Empire it selfe which see well enough how darke your gospel is But no matter for these small peeces What say you then to the new Indians which alone are greater than all whom we haue rekened If you lacke but them alone haue you all the world all most No This is so great a lye that â— might turne it backeward and say the whole world almost doth defie your Gospel All theyr trauayle hath in a manner come to naught Apolog. How say you to the late general CouÌ„cel Conf. 15 â–ª which had so woÌ„derful good successe and which is so executed in Rome it selfe that not only the Bishopes but Cardinals also are sent to theyr cures and goe obediently vnto them No bodye driuing it forwarde and without anie wordly helpe King Harry the eygth then is no body with you the Duke of Saxonie Lantgraue of Hesse King Edwarde the sixth the Villaines of Boheme the Hugonites of France c. Al these then are no body On the other syde our cause againste the wil of Emperours If Charles alone had not geuen more to clemencie which ouercommeth most of all noble personages
bycause he fansied him not wroÌ„gfully placed Pipine in his rome Chilperike was so good a Prince Confut. that He was commoÌ„ly called stupidus a dolt He was also wholy geuen to belly chere aÌ„d loue of womeÌ„ And therfore the whole realme of Fraunce made ernest sute to the Pope that they might be loosed from theyr othe made vnto him wherby it appereth that the Pope folowed not an only fansy of hys own but the requeste and aduise of a whole Countrie Now as for placing of Pipine wrongfully I knowe not how they could make it probable except he were made kinge against the good willes of the nobility aÌ„d communaltie of Fraunce For whereas euery common wealth is greater thaÌ„ the Prince which gouerneth it and maie depose the same vppon lawfull cause and whereas ryot and doltishnes are causes sufficient so to does as making the prince vnable to gouerne it wel it foloweth coÌ„sequeÌ„tly that if the whole state of FrauÌ„ce deposed Chilperike and erected Pipine ther was not fault coÌ„mittedin so doying He vtterly destroyed the state of the most florishing Citie and commoÌ„ wealth of Florence Apolog. his owne natiue countrie How great words vtterly destroied and Confut. florishing Citie It was neuer more quiet thaÌ„ it is now vnder the Duke For by naturall reason vnder one certaine heade peace is better maintained then in nuÌ„ber of families aÌ„d factioÌ„s be they neuer so smal And by experieÌ„ce they do feele that they haue lesse stur aÌ„d vprising thaÌ„ they haue knowen whereas vnto fourtie 〈◊〉 which they had before aboute the 〈◊〉 place they haue not one as nowe All these were Popes Apolog. all Peters sucesâ—â— all most holy fathers whose seueral â—â—oordes we must take to be as good as 〈◊〉 Ghospels Who told ye so Con. 184 Wher find ye it so Who 〈◊〉 taught you to lie so For not only the â—opes words but also his priuat writings 〈◊〉 taken to be subiect vnto errours and â—gnorance as other mens doings are but â—ot his definitiue sentence vpon any maâ—â—er to be generallie beleued The selfe same meÌ„ which haue led theyr 〈◊〉 at Rome Apolog. in yâ— holy city in the face of the most holy father who also were able to se 〈◊〉 theyr secrets at no time departed froÌ„ 〈◊〉 catholike faith as for exaÌ„ple LaureÌ„tius â—alla Marcilius Patauinus Frauncis â—etrarke Hierom Sauanorola Abbote 〈◊〉 â—oachim Baptist of Mantua before al â—hese Bernard the Abbat haue many a time much coÌ„plained of it geauing yâ— world 〈◊〉 â—lso somtime to vnderstand that the Biâ—hop of Rome him selfe by your leaue 〈◊〉 verie Antichriste Fyue lyes I will note at the leaste 〈◊〉 this one sentence Confut. 207. First of al these whoÌ„ ye name no one 〈◊〉 did lead his lyfe in Rome but Laurence Valla. Secondly they were not well able to see the Popes secretes whiche lyued 〈◊〉 in the Citie with him familiarly Thirdly concerning your lye that 〈◊〉 no tyme they departed from the Catholike faith Laurentius Valla was 〈◊〉 fangled Marcilius was a plain heretike â–ª Abbate Ioachim vttered heresie which was condemned but submitting himselâ— to the Catholike Churche he escaped foâ— his owne person Fourthely of the faultes of Rome 〈◊〉 Bernard hath complained but neuer 〈◊〉 the Popes tyranny and barbarous prydeâ— Fifthely it was the speciall grace 〈◊〉 Luther and the blindnes or follie of thâ— foresaid persons to geue you to vndeâ—stand that the Pope should be very Anâ—tichrist For the making of which lye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wil neuer so much aske our leaue we haue no such Authoritie to geue it vnto â—ou and therefore I praie you quiet your selues and neuer trouble vs more hereafter with such requestes We Apolog. saieth Hosius wil bid away with 〈◊〉 same scriptures c. It behoueth not 〈◊〉 man to be expert in the law scripture 〈◊〉 to be taught of God It is but lost about that a man bestoweth vpon the scriptures For the scripture is a creature â— bare letter This is Hosius saieing This is not Hosius saying Conf. 21â— Nay of set purpose he reherseth it for an heresie to declare how the new Ghospellers of this 〈◊〉 haue proceeded still from naught to worse and are now come some of them to such a diuine spritishnes that they contemne the studie of the Scriptures as a carnall thing and vnprofitable and will not haue anie man vse the testimonie of them But God forbid saieth Hosius that we should euer so much as think these things Hosius de expr ver Dei which belong not to a ChristiaÌ„ man For we hold with S. Hilarius who iudged heresie to come from the vnderstanding not from the scripture Seeing therefore that Hosius hath so expresselie declared him selfe to 〈◊〉 from Zwenkefeldius heresie whichâ— woulde not haue the Scripture to be 〈◊〉 credite what impudencie is it so boldâ—â— lie to chardge him with it as thougâ— it were his opinion to haue the 〈◊〉 put away Yet this so greate impudencie 〈◊〉 howe it shall be maintained For allthough it be perceiued of the Authors 〈◊〉 the Apologie that Hosius wil sone 〈◊〉 against them and saie that they doe 〈◊〉 wronge yet rather than they will 〈◊〉 seeme to eate theyr woorde and to 〈◊〉 vnable to defende that Note the stomach whiche 〈◊〉 had once sayed in the firste edition 〈◊〉 the Apologie they increase theyr 〈◊〉 and shame in the second edition 〈◊〉 whereas in conscience they should haue cried Hosius mercie and 〈◊〉 confessed theyr mistaking of him which had bene a token of good natures and such as especially should be in the professours of an holy Ghospel yet in theyr seconde Edition and further deliberation vppon the mater they not only doe not reuoke theyr slaunder but make Argumentes to defende it And firste to that whiche Hosius mighte truelie saie vnto them that they doe hym wronge and that the woordes whiche they obiecte againste hym are not hys owne woordes but the woordes of the Heretike Zwenkefeldius they aunswere But howe then Apolog. In the second edition if Zwenkefeldius make Exclamations on the other syde and saye that the same verie woordes are not hys but Hosius owne wordes Confut. If he will be so shamelesse as to obiecte that vnto Hosius as Hosius owne for whiche Hosius expressely reproueth him Or if he wil be so folish as to professe that opinion whiche he wil put await from himself when he is chalenged of it he is a meete witnes for the Apologie But howe is it likely and probable that ZweÌ„kefeldius might so doe It foloweth For tel me Apolog. where hath Zwenkfeldius euer writen them What if so much be not tolde you Confut. will it folowe that because you knowe not where to finde them in Zwengelfeldius therefore they are not in him at all Or because it is not told you wher ZweÌ„kfeldius hath writeÌ„ theÌ„ therfore Hosius doth alow them For herein is the pointe whether
by the name Apolog. of the highest Prelate the vniuersall Bishoppe or the head of the Churche S. Hierome ad Damasum Con. 247 The Councel of ChalcedoÌ„ â–ª and Victor de persequutione Vandalica these haue geauen the for sayd titles vnto the Bishoop of Rome Which of them euer sayd that both the swordes were committed to you Apolog. S. Bernard saiteth it lib. 4. de consideratione ad Eugenium Con. 247 Whiche of them euer sayed that you haue an Authority to cal Councels Apolog. There folowe a broune dosen moe of such which of them Con. 248 Which either nede no aunswer because the Catholik Church hath no suche Articles as you aske question of Or because it is not bound to answer euerie gentleman controllers busie questions although it be able either by expresse Authoritie or els by necessarie consequence to declare good and sufficieÌ„t cause and reason for euery thing that it aloweth But touching this present question Socrates Hist. Tripart lib. 4. ca. 9. doth plainely testifie against you What one error haue they amended From what kind of Idolatry haue they reclaimed the people Apolog. Here is a suspicioÌ„ reised of more thaÌ„ one error Con. 291. aÌ„d of more thaÌ„ one kind of Idolatry to be in the church and ther is no ê“batioÌ„ annexed to ê“ue that which is sayd But herein your bliÌ„dnes aÌ„d ignoraÌ„ce doth vtter it self that ye know not what is truth aÌ„d right worshippiÌ„g of God which obiect errors aÌ„d Idolatry to th'church of God in which church the techer of truth th' holy Ghost Ioan. 14â— is alwaies presideÌ„t and shal be vnto the worlds end Again if you coÌ„sider what hath ben don of late in general couÌ„cels aÌ„d what is don daily both by pÌ„ching aÌ„d writing against euil life and heresy you can not iustly find fault with the heades of the Churche as though they had no regard what the people did beleue and folowe Then further I say if you willo biect ignorance vnto the Catholykes that they knowe not what is true Religion then doth it remaine that you tel your owne mindes and answer theyr Confutations and Replies Before which tyme to insulte vpon them and to crowe out a lowde from what kinde of Idolatrie haue they reclaimed the people is to triumphe before the victorie and to goe merelie awaie with the sentence whiles the mater is a hearing yet in the consistorie But if you obiecte this crime to the Catholikes that they knowe wel inough what Idolatrie is and see the kindes of it and yet reclaime the people from no kind thereof this trulie is so heighnous and so vile a fault that ye shoulde haue euidentlie proued it before ye had so artificiallie concluded it For a plaine answere to whiche fowle suspition let any reasonable maÌ„ be iudge whether it be lykelie and possible that they which with great paines and daunger of bodie haue prouided verie Idolatours in deede to be conuerted vnto our faith would wittingly suffer an Idolatry to be at home before theyr eies aÌ„d yet not take a litle paine to opeÌ„ theyr mouth but once against it The FraÌ„ciscans and they of the societie of Ihesu haue and dâ—e take exceding greate paines about the barbarous people in the East and Weast India and with hazard of theyr temporal lyfe they venter to bring the Infidels to the knowledge of the life euerlasting Therefore surely it is bysides al reason and likelyhod that of so manie of the same order and profession as liue here in Europe emong vs no one should be fouÌ„d so honest so hardy or so faithful as to reclaime the people from theyr Idolatrie if anie were in them at all Why doe they so vncourteously or with such spite Apolog. leaue Princes out as though they were not either Christen meÌ„ or els could not iudge will not haue theÌ„ made acquainted with the cause of Christian Religion nor vnderstand the State of theyr owne Churches And why doe you so openly and so licentiously râ—yse a fowle suspition Con. 297 against the Cleargie where no cause is The teÌ„poral princes are solemly warned before of the general councel when soâ—uer it is to be kept Theyr Legats haue honorable and meete places for them in the Couâ—cel house that they may not be ignorant of that which is done in debating and examining the cause of religioÌ„ They be humbly and hartly thanked for theyr helpes and assistance and presence made in the cause of the Churche They be sent home with peace And say you that princes are so lefte out as though they were no Christen men whose Embassadours you maie vnderstand to be interteyned and vsed so honourably What ys the Pope Apolog. I praie you at this daye other than A Monarche Or A Prince Or what be the Cardinals who must be none other nowe but princes and Kinges Sonnes We neuer hearde anie wyse man call Con. 299 the Pope A Monarche But a Prince he is in deede either as the worde Prince maie signifie the Chiefe in all Priestelie function either as it signifieth a man so indued with Temporalties that he maie worthely be a Kinges felow But saie you what other is he than a Monarche or a Prince As who shoulde thinke that he sate imperiallie vnder his clothe of Estate and hearde Embassadours out of all quarters of the world and gaue kingdomes or toke them awaie at his pleasure and after such maters of weight dispatched then that he went to hunting hauking plaieing dauÌ„sing feasting c. as worldely Princes doe For such a thing do the coÌ„moÌ„ people imagine a Monarche or prince to be one that ruleth al and liueth in al pleasure That you therfore may be corrected of your lie aÌ„d the simple Reader of his error I say that the Pope is no Monarche at al. And I confesse boldly that he is a Prince by reason of the Temporall and greate IurisdictioÌ„ which he hath ouer S. Peters patrimonies but as Pius the fifthe that now liueth did answer agreably to his holines and wisdom Licet Princeps sum antiquius tamen Pastoris quà m principis nomen agnosco so to say the like in English I geue you to vnderstand that although the Pope be a prince yet he acknowledgeth and taketh the office of a Pastor to be the more former and principal with him than the Office of a Prince By this office then of a pastour he gouerneth and fâ—deth his flocke he sendeth non residents home to theyr cure he apointeth out Preachers and Bishopes for the new found lands he calleth CouÌ„cels endeth CouÌ„cels wheÌ„ it shal please him he goeth in visitatioÌ„ as this last yere he did through althe parish churches of Rome he excommunicateth such as wil not repent as he doth Courtesanes expelling them bodyly also out of the Citie he succoureth such as wil conuerte for which purpose his predecessor Pius the fourth of blessed memorie built a peculiar Cloister
aduersaries we proue that these three be so with vs that they are not with them it is vnreasonably and impudently set furth in print where he that will may iudge of it that we should be of any other minde than can be proued by euidence of some externall signes We are come to that Church Apolog. wherin they themselues can not denie if they will say truely and as thei think in their owne conscience but all thinges be gouerned purely and reuerently and as much as we possibly could very nere to the order vsed in the olde tyme. Here againe our owne conscience is brought furth against vs Conf. 269 as though thei did see by their sprite what we thinke in wardly though we outwardly shew all signes to the contrary Many Catholikes liue out of their Countrie other many lye in prison within their Country some write whole bookes against the procedings And al I thinke doe speake against them when they may do it without daunger of displeasure What should we doe more to declare that the newe Gospel is damnable Yet al this notwithstanding we thinke in our conscience say the Authors of the Apology that al thinges be gouerned purely and reuerently emong them c. Haue they any honesty which set such faces vpoÌ„ maters Let vs see in al that while of the first syxe moneths in which the Councel sate at Trente of so many Apolog. so manifest so often confessed of them and so euident errors what one errorhaue they amended But what are they first Con. 291. that we may knowe them These men vse of course Apolog. to denie all thinges be they neuer so cleere yea the very same which they presently see and beholde with theyr owne eyes This lye is of the same sute with his foresaied felowes Conf. 317. because it layeth such thinges to our charge as our doeinges proue to be most false and incredible For al the Scriptures we haue receiued and excepte we had commended them no protestant could euer haue trusted them The old Councels and Fathers we more esteme than Protestantes doe we refuse no laufull testimonie of any age That which we see with our eyes we do neuer deny though we vnderstand such thinges as come vnder our senses otherwise than the heretikes doe To whom therefore may I compare these Aduersaries which wil make vs beleue that we see well inough that which we do deny and sometimes denie that which we do see I thinke they are disposed only to make sporte aÌ„d so to plaie in maters of religion like as idel speÌ„ders of theyr wit and time doe in the deuising of mad mery games For when halfe a dosen such are agreed togeather one of them for example laieth handes vpon a quiet man that passeth by And whyle the innocent looketh backe vpon him in commeth an other that helpeth to holde him so fast as though it should be for the kings auantage to haue such a one made sure With that he that without cause is so apprehended wondreth at the matter aÌ„d asketh what they meane aÌ„d stretcheth his power to break away froÌ„ them But he begiÌ„neth no soner to resist but straitwaies they cry helpe Sirs helpe for the Lordes sake this felow is mad see how his colour chaungeth see how he panteth c. And with that the rest of the brotherhoode sore moued with bitter compassion make in to him and for lacke of other sprites there they possesse him and holde him and crie vnto him and kepe such a sturre about him as is able to bring many a man halfe out of his wittes and to perswade with other that stande by and consider the thing that vndoutedly the felow that suffreth the violence is mad and not that they which goe so sadly and constantly to the holding of him should be any thing madde After which sorte if the Authors of the Apologie haue concluded to cry out vpon vs that we can not denie that we knowe in our owne conscience that we knowe for a truth such and such thinges as we lay against them to be false and if they will needes enforce it vpon vs that we can not deny but all thinges are gouerned purely and reuerently amonge them what remedy but patieÌ„ce and to suffer them to cary vs into Bedlem with so many holy and learned men our forefathers as already they haue condemned if they will not be answered with our open confession in worde and deede But if this be vnreasonably done of them to burden vs with such a Conscience as can not be gathered of any our external acte Iudge thou Indifferent Reader whether this be not properly facing of a lye The 10. Chapiter conteining the Problematicall or Hypotheticall lyes with how then what ifs and put case Not so impudent and open faced as other but not vnworthy to be noted and no lesse shameful than the worst of all But I put case Apolog. an Idoll be set vp in the Church of God And the same desolation which Christ prophesied to come stand openly in the holy place It should not long continue Con. 192. I beleue to graunt your case For wheÌ„ Antichrist him selfe shal come he shal be quickelie destroied and neuer haue any successour openlie to syt in his Chaire after him What if some theefe or Pirate inuade and possesse Noes Arke Apolog. I thinke the Arke woulde sinke Conf. 192 And whereas God him self keepeth the Arke his Church and prouideth it to be a place of safety in which the iuste seed shall be preserued to let a Pirate and Theefe to possesse the Arke were as muche to graunt as to lette there be no honestie no Faith no laufull Authoritie in the Church Yea it is as much to saie as I put the case there were no God Howe then if I call furthe those for witnesses Apolo whom them selues haue vsed to honour What if I saie that Adriane the Bishop of Rome did fraÌ„kly confesse that all those myscheefes braste out first frâ—â— the hygh throne of the Pope Mary ye lie Con. â—06 if ye saie so But howe then yf Zwenkeseldius make exclamation on the other syde Apolog. and 〈◊〉 that the same verie wordes be not 〈◊〉 but Hosius owne wordes If he will be so wise as to recall his owne woordes Con. 217 the Churche is mercifull to al that repent If he wil be so desperat as to denie that which is in sighte that shal helpe him nothing in theyr iudgmeÌ„t which knowe Hosius to be a Catholike But howe if the thinges which these men are so desyrous to haue seeme new Apolog. be founde of greateste Antiquitie Contrariwyse howe if all thinges well nie whiche they so greately sette out with the name of Antiquitie hauing bene well throughly examined be at length founde to be but newe and deuised of verie late Verely they wil be strange cases Con. 230. when any suche fall But I
once saie the word both partes wil submitte theÌ„selues vnto it because it is impossible that he should speake anie vntrueth His authoritie therefore being for so good cause so great with vs either ye can ê“ue that Christ hath fortold as ye report of him or ye can not proue it If ye can not what an impudencie is it againste Christ himself so to belie him and what an iniurie â—s it to the Reader so to abuse him by the name of Christe But if ye can shewe it where Christ hath foretold that our Churche shoulde erre doe so then and speake not so mightie woordes againste vs without anie prouing of them at all But howe is it possible that ye should proue them Christ hath a Church For this first ye will not denie that Christ hath a Church otherwise his Incarnation and Passion hath bene in vaine if he haue not her for whoÌ„ he toke flesh The Churc◠〈◊〉 visible aÌ„d shed his blud This church theÌ„ of Christ is it visible or no Visible it must nedes be because it coÌ„sisteth of meÌ„ â—nd meÌ„ are creatures coÌ„sisting not of pure and simple soules but of soules and bodies togeather And Christ saieth of it Math 5. The Citie can not be hid that is set vpon an hyl Being then visible The Churche hath order in it Sap. 11. shal ye see good order in it or no Vndoubtedlie he that hath made al things by nuÌ„ber weight and measure muste not let that to be without order which he estemeth most of al other thinges For 〈◊〉 is the bodie of Christe Eph. 4. compacted and knit togeather through euerie ioynt wherewith one ministreth to an other hauiÌ„g in it distinction of offices and duties to rule to obey to preache to heare to minister to receaue This Order then The order in the Church must continue Dan. 7. shal it for anie tyme be lacking in Christes Church or shal it continue to the worldes end It muste needes continue because the kingdome of Christ is euerlasting and no power is hable to destroie the order which he taketh The Apostle also most expresly telling vs that Christ hath geuen Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes Pastoures and Teachers â—ph 4. to finish and perfite the holy to worke in the ministery to build vp the bodie of Christ. Which bodie whereas it caÌ„ not be perfited vntill al they be borne that shal be saued soules it foloweth that this Order which I speake of must continue so long vntil all meete togeather in vnity of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God which wil not be til al be borne that shall so meete togeather and that is at domes day and not before These grounds then so standing I say vnto you for as much as the Church of Christ consisteth of a visible cumpanie of men which is kept in order and vnitie by reason that euery one knoweth his place and keepeth himselfe within his boundes least he loose his place and for as much as this cumpanie and order must continue to the worldes end without dissolution or distruction I say therfore vnto you that either our Catholike Church is the true Church of Christ or els that Christ hath no Church at al. For besides our Church ther is none that hath bensene to coÌ„tinue in any form of religioÌ„ euer sensth ' Apostles time hitherto As in exaÌ„ple before Luther brake out froÌ„ his cloister and Rule ther was not in al the world anyone cuÌ„pany of Luther aÌ„s ZuiÌ„gli aÌ„s Caluinists or any other sect that braggeth at this day of the light aÌ„d knouledge of the gospel Wel ther might be in corners some faithles meÌ„ and womeÌ„ that in hart were heretical like as at this present if harts were sene many shuld be fouÌ„d eueÌ„ in EnglaÌ„d it self to dout of th'iÌ„mortality of the soule aÌ„d th' IncarnatioÌ„ of Christ c but ther was no opeÌ„ coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of theÌ„ nor apê“ued form of ministratioÌ„ emoÌ„g theÌ„ nor any face or shew of a Church For yourselues do say that Martin Luther aÌ„d Hulderik ZuiÌ„glius wer the first that came to the knowledge aÌ„d preaching of the Gospel so that if they were first it foloweth that before they came ther was no congregatioÌ„ of ê“testaÌ„ts in al the world or if it were it was not visible or if it were visible it had no true preachers or if it had true preachers Luther aÌ„d Zuinglê° need not to be praised of you for most excelleÌ„t meÌ„ eueÌ„ sent of God to geue light to the world because there were in the coÌ„gregatioÌ„s of the sincere in the Lord as illumined preachers of the word as they But wher as the truth is as you say that Luther and ZuiÌ„glius were the first that cam to the knoulege aÌ„d prechiÌ„g of the Gospel which is none in dede and wher as it remaineth to this day not oÌ„ly in the bokes that are writeÌ„ but in the memories of meÌ„ that knew those daies that before Luther and ZuiÌ„glius made a tumult in ReligioÌ„ ther was not in al ChristeÌ„doÌ„ any other ê“fessioÌ„ of faith thaÌ„ was sene in our Church which we know to be Catholik it foloweth that your church caÌ„ not possibly be the Church of Christ the coÌ„tinuaÌ„ce of which your church caÌ„ so litle be ê‘ceiued that yourselues know it begaÌ„ to com furth in Frier Luther and Sir ZuiÌ„glius time In whiche Churche there was so little order that ye can name neither SuperintendeÌ„t nor minister nor preacher nor broâ—her of it that liued before the most excelleÌ„t meÌ„ Luther and Zuinglius and which Churche was so inuisible that ye neuer sawe so much as any forme of communion table pulpit vestiment or other thing vsed in it Yet we see this by experience that when a cumpany of heretikes doth mete togeather they wil not be longe without theyr preacher euerie one is so readie to be preacher and they can not be without some place and they wil make harde shifte but they will haue a good place which is the cause that so many requestes haue bene made to Gouernours of certaine Countries and so manie Religious houses and Churches haue bene hewed and squared for the receiuing of the newe Ghospel Therefore if there was anie congregation extant of this your Church before Frier Luther lay with Nonne Katerine and begate manie foule and fi lt hic opinions of his owne braine and if that Church was the true Apostolik Church and had so continued from the beginning theÌ„ had they places to resort vnto and they vsed such order as they had receiued of theyr Forefathers and you are hable to name the place and tel vs theyr Order But we can he are of no such thing ergo there was no Church of yours at all as then Add then now vnto this that Luthers Church began with Luther and so furth euery Church sens Luther hath begon with the Diuiser of it And consider that the true Church of Christe can haue no suche
for thee â—eter I haue praied that thy faith should not â—aile and thou being once turned confirme thy bretherne Againe to S. Peter he committeth his whole flocke saying Ioan 21. feede my lambes fede my sheepe To S. Peter then as the singularly chosen the promises are made and the priuileges are by praier obtained aÌ„d the charge by expresse worde is committed Nowe for confirmation of these wordes consider the effectes that haue folowed what heresie was euer mainteined by the See of Rome What question was there euer in the Church of Christ and not referred to that See and determined or pacified by it What See hath continued in al tempestes but onlie the See of Rome Who can shewe theyr succession from the Apostles but onlie the Bishopes of Rome What See is preferred in the writinges of holy Fathers but the See of Rome onlie That is the Chaire vnto which perfidiousnes can haue no accesse 〈…〉 That is the chaire of vnitie in which God hath put the doctrine of veritie 〈…〉 That is the Chaire in which euill men are constrayned to speake good thinges that the faith of the Christians may be out of doubt with them whiles it shall depend vpon the infallible promises of God and not vpon the deceiptful coniectures of men This Churche therefore being the Church which we cal Catholik in which the chiefe Master of the worke laied S. Peter as the first stone next to himselfe and in which there is a continual rew of Bishops one vpon an other to the meruelous strengthning and beautifieng of the whole building against which Church it is impossible that any wind or weather should so preuaile as it might ouerturne it for it is builded vpon a sure Rocke in which Church also there is the presence of the Holyghost sent of our Sauiour to teach it all truth and to tarie with it for euer these thinges being most euident and consequent what a blaspheâ—ouse lye is it to say that Christ hath told longe before that this Churche should erre For what other thiÌ„g is that to say but to blaspheme either the wisedoÌ„ of God as though he had not erected a church that should not erre or his power as though he could not bring it to passe or his Charitie as though he would not or his veritie as though he had not sayed poynting to S. Peter Math. 1â— vpon this Rock I wil build my Churcâ—e and againe I haue prayed for thee Peter Luc. 22. that thy Faith might not faile But for this tyme this is inough to note only the blasphemie he that wil see is more largely betraied and conuinced let him reade Doctor Saunders booke lately set furth of the Rocke of the Church The 12. Of the Contradictions Martin Luther Hulderycke Zuinglius Apolog. â—74 a being most excellent men euen sent of God to geue light to the worlde firste came vnto the knowledge of the Gospell ERgo before their tyme Confut. ther was a generall darknes in the world I wysse it is not so harde a matter to find out Gods Church Apolog. .24 for the Church of God is set vpoÌ„ an hill glistering place Ergo Luther and Zuinglius could not be the first that shoulde see the Church Confut. except either Christ had no Church at all in the world wheÌ„ Luther was borne or except a Citie set vpon an hil and for that purpose vndoubtedly sette that it might be sene should not yet be sene before Luther came in with his lanthorn We saye we haue no meede at all Apolog. 125. by our owne workes and dedes Ergo it booteth not to labour Confut. except it be for nothing God hath plucked vs out from the power of darknes Apolog. 225. to serue the liuing God to cut away all the remanents of synne and to worke out Saluation in feare and trembling Ergo that is not without some meede and rewarde Confut. by which we worke our saluation Our Aduersaries must be heaued froÌ„ their mother Apolog. 194. that is from this vaine coloure and shadow of the Church Ergo ye should vtterly dâ—spise the Church Confut. especially as it is now if yoâ—r aduersaries mother be of no substance but a vaine colour only To say truely Apolog. 192. we doe not despise the Chuâ—che of these men how so euer it be ordered by them now adayes â—rgo the Catholiks Church is no vaine colour of a Church Confut. seing that your selues dare not despise it 〈◊〉 popes had neuer hitherto leisure to 〈…〉 and earnesâ—â—â—e of those matters Apolog 19. 〈◊〉 some other cares do let them and â—iuers waies pul them Item â—61 they compt these thinges to be but coÌ„mon and trifling studies and nothing to appertaine to the Popes worthines Ergo being so carelesse Confut. they would neuer haue perceiued the case of their Religion nor procured men to defend it There haue ben wylily procured by yâ— Bishop of Rome Apolog. certaine persons of eloquence inough and not vnlearned neither which should put their helpe to this cause now almoste despaired of Item In deede they perceyued that their owne cause did euery where goe to wracke Ergo it appeareth Confut. that the Popes haue had care of the cause of Religion In this point that is lifting vp the Sacrament consisteth nowe all theyr Religion Apolog 250. Ergo al is not in salt Confut. water c. In these thinges they meane salt water Apolog. 255. Oyle spittle Palme they haue set all their Religion Ergo all is not in lifting vp the Sacrament Confut. What fault haue they once acknowledged and confessed Apolog. 209. Why burden ye then vs with not amending manifest and ofte confessed faultes Confut. Of so many Apolog 291. so manifest so often confessed by them and so euident errours what one haue they amended Why aske you then Confut. what faulte we haue once confessed For so much as we were most ascertened of God his will Apolog. 327. and compâ—ed it a wicked thing to be careful and ouercuÌ„bred about yâ— iudgments of mortal men Therefore ye should haue neuer called a Synode of mortal men Confut. Yet it foloweth Therefore we thought good to remedie our Churches by a prouincial Sinod Apolog. But what neded a remedy by a Synod Confut. if mortal mens iudgmentes are not to be cared for Our cause against the wil of Emperoures from the beginning Apolog. .15 against the willes of so many Kinges in spite of the Popes and almost maugre the head of al men hath taken encreace c. You neuer nede then Confu to aske leaue that your Gospel may procede if it be so victorious and triumâ—hant that maugre the head of al men almost it take encrease Let them geue the Ghospell free passage Apolog 133. let the trueth of Ihesu Christ geue his clere light