For then they coulde not bee blamed Zelot Howe the Diuel hath muffled you too keepe yee from seeyng the daunger of eternall damnation which ye are in haue yee neuer hearde that whiche GOD sayth by Moses which S. Paule citeth in the 3. Chap. to the Galath Cursed is euery one whiche abydeth not in all thinges which are written in the booke of the law for to doe them by which yee may see that God with his own mouth doth lay his curse which is daÌ„natioÌ„ vppon euery one which doth breake neuer so litle of the law Ath. GOD is mercifull hee is not so senere as you woulde make him for to bee Zelot Doe ye not thinke that he is a iust and a true God Ath. I must needes thinke so Zelot Do ye thinke that when he hath vttered his iustice that he can by his mercy goe from it and so be sound vn true Nay there bee many of yee which in all thinges crie God is mercifull GOD is mercifull which neuer consider with what conditions GOD hath promised mercy neyther how it may stand with his iustice and trueth ye thinke GOD offereth mercy without exception Ath. If God bee not mercifull wee are but in an euill case Zelot He is a most mercifull and gratious God but yet not vnto any but suche as he hath promised mercy Howe many thousandd there be which are caried headlong to hell with this error which not knowing the iustice and truth of GOD doe blesse them selues where God hath accursed them For these thinges which you haue now vâ—tered are euen of the principall reasons which Satan doth seduce men withall and holde them from the truth They thinke thus I do what I can God hath made me able to doe no better God is mercifull they know not this that God made vs able in our first creation to keepe and obey his will wholly and that although we can now keepe no part of it yet he may iustly accurse and condemne vs vnto eternall fire for transgressing any part of it ye are not as he made ye and therfore ye deceiue your selfe when yee thinke that he requireth no more at your handes then ye are now able for to doe Ye deceiue your selfe when ye think that GOD can be mercifull vnto ye and you liue without repentance Ath. You woulde make a man dispaire if ye would put him out of hope in the mercie of God Zelot I would not bring ye out of hope in the mercy of God but I would bring ye ouâ— of your vaine hope which is not that which wil saue ye but doth harden and blind ye vnto damnation Ath. How can a mans hope and fayth hi God haâ—â—en and blinde him vnto damnation Now a dayes there is nothing among many of ye but damnation damnation It is well that God hath not giuen you power for to condemne 〈…〉 Zelot If it were a true fayth it must needes 〈…〉 them but being a faith which is blinde it blindeth those which haue it and hard â—â—â—h then â—in their sinnes and keepeth them from the seeking after the knowledge of Gods will and stayeth them from returning home vnto God by true repentance because it breadeth this in the hearts of men to thinke and to say we are welynough we 〈…〉 God◠〈…〉 we beleeue as well as the best of them all when as if they were riddâ— out of this notable snare of the. Deuil and brought for to see the wrath of GOD bent against them they woulde then be glad with feare and trembling to seeke after the Lorde in his woorde and to bee afraide to committe those thinges whiche might displease him Where as nowe a man mayâ— crye vntill he rende his throate ag 〈…〉 tâ—â—ir contempt of the Lordes word and agaynst their fowle sinnes before hee iâ— an mooue them at all and why because the deuill hath gotten them within this fortresse GOD is merciful God is merciful And for your other foolish words that there is now nothing but damnation damnation Do ye thinke that men are euer the sooner cast into damnation because they are told of the great danger thereof Ath. I pray yeâ— let me see what good can come thereof Zelot If I shoulde meeâ—e ye by the way and perceiue that yee were going into the way where ye shoulde light among theeues which would murther yee which were most profitable for you if I should tell yee thus ye bee well yee be well or to shewe yee that yee bee in daunger of your life if yee passe that way Ath. That were a wicked part for to let a man goe where he shoulde loose his life and not for to tell him Zelot Wherefore doe yee not see then that those which doe shew ye the daunger of damnation doe it for your profit as well as they which teach ye to auoyde some outwarde daunger If a man tell ye thus goe not that way ye wil be robbed ye wil be killed doth it follow that he will robbe or kill ye because ye say men now vtter damnation and that it is well they haue not power too condemne men And know this for certaintie that if God in his woorde doe threaten damnation and the preacher doe not shewe it to the people and teach them howe to auoide the same their blood shall be required at his hande But let vs come backe againe to the former matter to see howe well yee vnderstand your x commaundements I would knowe this of yee whether it be good for men to knowe the lawe seeing it doeth nothing but curse and condemne vs if there were no lawe there coulde be no sinne I speake both of the lawe of nature and of the lawe written and if there were no sinne there coulde bee no condemnation For this cause the lawe is called the ministerie of death and condemnation and it is called the letter which killeth 2. Corinth 3. Seeing it doeth woorke all this what profite can it bring for to know it or why should it be preached Ath. I pray ye tell me you for I am vnlearned and you are learned If it bee as you say I thinke it were good not to preach it if it doe condemne vs. Zelot What a shame is it that a man of your age shoulde haue so little skill as not to knowe to what purpose the lawe serueth It is a token ye vnderstande your x. commaundements well I will tell yee when a man knoweeth the lawe it doeth bring him to see that he is altogether corrupted with sinne both in bodie and soule that he is vnder Gods heauie indignation and 〈…〉 and that in himselfe there is no helpe at all it casteth him into feare and terrour of Gods iudgementes and so inforceth him to seeke for remedie in Christe whom before he did not greatly seeke after For looke how a man which doth not thinke himselfe sicke nor in daunger of sicknesse careth not for a Phisition so he which doeth not knowe his damnable estate by
will a little trie because ye bragge so stoutly howe well yee beleeue Ye beleeue Christ was crucified and suffred vpon the Crosse but are yee able for to prooue that yee beleeue in Christ crucified Ath. I say I doe are you able for to disprooue me Zelot Sinne is not slaine in ye therfore ye do not Ath. Howe prooue yée that sinne is not slaine in mee Zelot Because it doth raigne in ye therfore it is aliue Ath. I knowe not what yee meane by that Zelot Yee are ledde by sinne ye delight in it ye haue not mortified the lusts and concupiscences of the same And therefore yee haue not learned Christ as S. Paule speaketh Ephesians 4. Ye haue not put of the old man and put on the new man The death and passion of Christ hath not slaine sinne in yee for to beleeue in Christ crucified is for to be crucified with him as the Apostles doe teach in sundry places The reason is this Christe was not crucified for to slay sinne in him self for he had none but in his members which are ioyned and knit vnto him by faith in them the force power of his death doth shew it selfe nowe he which hath not this worke of the death of Christ in him that hee feeleth himselfe crucified concerning the body of sinne his faith in the passion of Christ is but a dead faith and cannot saue him This is the cause why S. Paule faith Rom. 8. That those which are in Christ walke not after the fleshe but after the spirite S. Iohn saith 1. Epistle cha 3. Ye know that he was made manifest to take away our sinnes in him was no sinne Whosoeuer abideth in him sinneth not he that sinneth hath not seene him nor knowne him Ath. Then by that reason yee woulde prooue that all that beleeue in Christ are perfect without sinne I thinke all are sinners Zelot Whosoeuer is borne of God sinneth not 1. Iohn 3. 9. Ath. Is there any man which can saye that hee is without sinne Zelot Not one which liueth in this flesh Ath. Then yee are contrarie vnto your selfe for euen nowe yee sayde That whosoeuer abideth in Christ sinneth not and hée which is borne of God sinneth not and now ye confesse that all are sinners so long as they liue Zelot I am not contrarie vnto my selfe but your blindnesse causeth ye for to thinke so Looke in the Epistle to the Romaines Chapter 7. and there ye shall find how S. Paule coupleth both these things together in himselfe which you iudge to bee so coutrary that by no meanes they may be founde in one man together at one time He confesseth that there was a lawe in his members rebelling against the law of his mind and leading him captiue to the law of sinne And yet a litle before in the same Chapter hee saieth That he did not commit the euill but sinne which dwelt in him The reason which he maketh is that hee did consent vnto the law and would haue doone the good but he did the euill which he hated To make the matter plaine thus it is Saint Paule was regenerate but yet not in full perfection for the remnaunt of sinne did abide in him that which the part regenerate did or coueted to doe or consented vnto that he saith he did and that which the corruption which did still remaine in him forced him for to doe that he saith he did not but sinne which dwelled in him Hee doth esteeme himselfe in the part regenerate he counteth the remnaunts of the old man to be but as excrements or as a dead carion which did abide in him and anoy him His delight and desire was vppon the good he hated the euill and therefore when he did sinne because it was against his consent and against his will it was no obedience which hee gaue vnto it he did not therefore serue sinne neyther did sin raygne ouer him but exercise a certayne â—iranny ouer him which he coulde not speake of Ath. I know not what yée meane when yée haue saide what yée can all must bee sinners Zelot Yee may very easily perswade me to beleeue that ye know not what I meane If your fiue wits were fifteene they woulde helpe nothing in this case Because ye know not what this meaneth yee know not what faith in Christ crucifyed meaneth ye know not what repentaunce meaneth yee can see no difference of sinners all are sinners say you and the death of Christ is that whiche saueth not considering that the death of Christ first killeth those whom it maketh aliue For this cause men are greatlye ouershot oftentimes when they come vnto a sicke man they thinke if he say I beleeue Christe died for my sinnes and shed his blood for me that then all is aswell as may be If it were faith in deed in the blood of Christ they must needes be in good case for al that beleeue in him shalbe saued But they stay vpon a bare fantasie which is a dead weak faith not making them to feele the power of the death of Christe Ignoraunce is so deepely setled in mens mindes that let a man be neuer so wicked neuer so far from true knowledge of God if he can make but some general coÌ„fession they neuer looke further And because they see almost all howesoeuer they liue find this it maketh them also to be carelesse and neuer for to thinke of the newe birth of which Christe speaketh when he sayeth vnto Nicodemus except a man be borne againe he cannot see the kingdome of God This newe byrth is shut out at the doores therefore no doubt God doth shutte them out of his kingdome which make no account of it Ath. Make your selfe neuer so skilfull yet yée cannot tell which man God saueth and which he condemneth Zelot It is not the will of God that wee should take vpon vs for to pronounce vppon any man and to say he is damned because we must leaue the secrete counsell of God vnto himselfe who is not bounde vnto vs to giue any account of his doings But I pray yee let vs a litle consider howe this headlesse bolte of yours is shotte foorth against true godlynesse Thus you reason no man can tell who are saued and who are damned therefore we are not for to care for tryall of our faith and repentance and that therfore the rules which are giuen in the word of God in these points are nothing worth Euery man may searche and know in him selfe whether he be in good case or not and we ought euery one for to trie our selues by that whiche the woord teacheth so plentifully I woulde wishe yee to consider what the cause is why the greatest multitude goe to destruction euen because they knowe not these thinges therefore see not the great danger which they be in but can boldly beare themselues in haÌ„d that they shall doe well enough Manye doe laugh euen in the middest of destruction I meane
A Briefe discourse of certaine points of the religion which is among the commō sort of Christians which may bee termed the Countrie Diuinitie With a manifest confutation of the same after the order of a Dialogue Compiled by George Gifforde Imprinted at London for Toby Cook dwelling at the Tigres head in Paules churchyard and are there to bee solde 1582. To the Right honourable his very good Lord Ambrose Earle of Warwick Maister of her Maiesties Ordinance Knight of the noble order of the Garter and one of her highnesse most honourable priuie Councel George Gifford wisheth increase of al true happines honour with the continuall comfert of a good conscience I Nothing doubt right honourable but that it will seeme great rashnes vnto some and no smal folly to offer and present so simple and slender a booke as this is vnto your Lordship for what doth it seeme to bring with it worthie the person of a Noble man There is no pompe in the manner of speech for it is rude and country like the matter it selfe is not handled as a disputation betweene deepe diuines but after the manner of plough men and cartars a great absurditie therefore appeareth in this that an honourable person of great dignitie should be called for as it were to stand by and hear such speak Good cause there is therfore that I shold render som reason of this my boldenes which I will willingly doe to vse that which the heathen Poet saith Si canimus syluas syluae sunt consule dignae Will not suffice for although respecting the things which I handle because they belong to the trees that are planted in the Lords Orchard they doe as farre excel the woods and groues as the vine doth the bramble bush yet neuerthelesse he hath so richly decked his base beggerly matter hee hath so clothed it in silkes from top to toe and hath hanged so many iewels vpon it that it shal finde entertainement and be thought meete for the courts of princes where as mine being very porely clad wil be reiected I wil expresse therefore a better reason of my doing which is this As those which haue corne fieldes think it not a thing vnmecte to be told by their seruāts of thistles weedes which would hinder mar the corn if they prouide not to haue them plucked vp euē so I know that it is not an vnworthy thing to shew vnto those which are of highe calling the hurtful dangerous weedes which would ouergrow and choke the heauēly seed of the gospel sowen in the Lords field When as our church therefore common wealth being the Lords husbandrie is ouergrowne with weedes almost laide waste I see no cause wherefore I may iustly be blamed for giuing notice thereof in sōe part vnto your honour Seeing their principall causes and sountaines frō whēce corruptiōs flow are to be taken away and dryed vp by those whō God hath placed in the highest roomes Among which the want of a sincere ministerie of the woorde is the greatest through absence of which there is a flood of ignorance and darknes ouerflowing the most part of the land the feare of God is banished from the greatest parte the woonderfull heapes and piles of sinne which should bee washed and cleansed away by the word do vndoubtedly with one voice cry alowd in the eares of the Lord for vengeance vpon the whole realme The papistes cannot be conuerted but hardened turned out of the way there is so foule disorder and so many stumbling blockes cast in the way The Diuell hath elbowe roome to spread abroad to plant water all kinde of errours so fewe there be to withstand him But to come to that particular which I hādle in this treatise there are the most in number who hauing Poperie taken from them and not taught throughly and sufficiently in the Gospel doe stand as men indifferent so that they may quietly inioye the world they care not what religion come they are like naked men fitte and readie for any coate almost that may bee put vpon them The life of these is exceeding prophane they haue hardened thēselues in their sinnes by reason which they gather partly out of their owne braine partly out of some sayings in the word by which they cloke defēd their own corrupt wayes I haue therefore gathered the most commō principles of their faith and religion by which they arme themselues against true repentance and right vnderstanding I haue not noted all neither haue I medled with those seuerall grosse absurdities whiche eache hath proper to himself for that should be infinite I trust your Lordeship will rightly construe my good meaning and take in good worth this simple treatise pitying the case of the poore church of Christ which is so ful of greeuous sicknesses and sores that vnlesse she be releeued and cured she wil scarce be able to continue life She cannot but most humbly craue his dutie at the hands of those which are neere about her deare Nurse From whom she hath nowe long time receiued wonderfull protection and defence against aduersaries that they make knowne her state and labour the recovery retaining of her health Because it doth stand not only with their eternal glorye in the worlde to come but also with their honourable estate in this life Which cannot be established to florish in continuance vnlesse the Lorde God haue his thrōe so erected in the middest of her that she may florishe For where he is dishonored and dispised of those whom shee nourisheth in her bosome her case is daungerous for it is against al wise pollicie to make him an aduersarie who hath all power of himselfe is able to roote out and destroy mighty kingdomes so that if she keep in fauour league with him there is no feare of any other This Lord of Lordes and most mighty king increase abundātly in yee al heauenly spirituall graces with increase of honour in this world to his glory c your eternal comforte Amen Your honours most humble to commaund George Gifford ¶ A briefe discourse of certaine pointes of the religion whiche is among the common sorte of Christians which may bee termed the Countrie diuinitie with a plaine and manifest confutation of the same after the order of a Dialogue Zelotes Atheos Zelotes VVEll ouertaken my friende Atheos I thanke you Syr. Zelotes How farre doeye◠trauell this way Ath. Iwentie myles Zelot Doe you dwell in Essex Ath. Yea not farre from Clelmeforde Zelot What call yee the Towne where yee dwell Ath. G. B. Zelot Haue yee a preacher there Ath. Wee haue an honest man our Curat Zelot Doth he teach his flock Ath. Hée doth his good will and more ye cannot require of a man Zelot Yee did commende him euen now to be an honest man Ath. Commende him yea I maye commende him I am perswaded wee haue the beste Prieste in this Countreye wee woulde bee lothe too forgoe him
against preaching of Gods woorde that it maketh men neuer the better and ye would haue them leaue talking and fall to doing I confesse there be a number which are counterfeite professors which liue not according to the Gospell and most commonly they be such as haue but a little smacke of the Gospel and yet thinke they know much because they want the meanes hauing the worde either seldome or loosely preached But I will confute your vanitie another waye in this point tell me are not these your sayinges where the woorde is sincerely preached if any seeke to frame their liues after the same when they doe eyther by woorde reprooue your euill wayes or by deede refuse your lewde maners These men are full of the Spirite these are precise fellowes these are holie Saintes these thinke them selues Gods fellowes these thinke them selues better then all other men Ath. We say so in deede there is good cause why Zelot Then I pray ye tell me howe these two thinges can hang together when ye saie there is no amendement of life and yet yee complaine that they be ouer full of the spirit ouer precise and such like May not euery man see that ye pronounce thinges directly contrarie the one to the other that there is no amendment and yet in effect ye say they amende ouer fast Ath. Wee doe not saye that any doe amende ouer fast Zelot When ye say they are ouer holy and what shoulde men be so curious and full of the spirite what is this but to say that they amende ouer fast Is not this to amend when men by due instruction out of Gods woorde come to repentaunce of their former vices and haue a care to keepe them selues from the spottes of the rotten fleshe and filthie worlde Do not you and such as you are after a sort blaspheme when yee reproche men with the spirite Is it a shame for a man nowe a dayes for to haue anye thing to doe with the spirite of God While a man doeth walke after the fleshe in the lustes of vncleannesse he is an honest man But so soone as hee is indued with any grace ye wonder at him as crowes do at an owle yee are readie to floute and mocke him out of his skinne And as if the spirite of GOD were a spirite of dishonour and shame yee mocke men with him Wee may wonder at the longe patience of GOD which hath thus many yeeres suffered himselfe to be dishonoured his spirite reuiled his woorde despised and hath not been reuenged but no doubt the longer hee hath â—aried the heauier will the stroke be Ath. Men are men what shoulde they make themselues more holy then they be Zelot If ye meane one way ye say right for it is a naughtie vice for men to seeme to be holy when they are not or to seeme to be more holy then they be but if yee meane another way as I thinke ye doe that because men are sinfull by nature why shoulde they seeke for to be better then doe ye speake verie wickedly For God calleth men to repentance to turne from their euill wayes God guideth his seruants at all times with his spirite therfore S. paule sayth Rom. 8. There Is no condemnation nowe to those whiche are in Christ Iesus which walke not after the fleshe but after the spirite And againe in the same chapter As many as are led by the spirite of God are the sonnes of God Hee sayth that if wee liue after the fleshe we shall dye in other places he doth shewe whiche are the workes of the spirite and whiche are the workes of the fleshe And you like blasphemous wretches allowe those whiche walke after the flesh and condemne those which are led by the spirite Ath. Are none indued with Gods Spirite but such as runne to heare preaching Zelot Whosoeuer hath the spirite of God can not but delight in the woorde of God whiche the same spirite hath vttered The Lorde saith hee which is of God heareth Gods worde The happie man is hee as wee haue in the 1. Psalme whiche hath his delight in the lawe of the Lorde and which doeth meditate in the same day and night We haue in the psalme 112. Blessed is the man which feareth the Lorde hee hath great delight in his commaundements Moreouer the spirite of GOD doeth not guide men without the woorde And therefore it is saide Psalme 119. Thy woorde is a lanterne vnto my feete and a light vnto my pathes S Peter sayth I. Epist 1. Hee hath beegotten vs againe not of mortall but of immortall seede which he affirmeth to bee the worde of God that indureth for euer Likewise S. Iames saith cap. 1. of his owne good will begat hee vs by the woord of trueth Seeing therfore that the holy Ghost doth guide men by the worde it followeth that all those which set light by the woorde are led not with the spirite of God but with the spirite of the Diuell I might alleadge a number of testimonies of Scripture to prooue that such as you which make so small accompt of the sacred woorde of God as there be a number yea the greatest number whiche doe not set so muche by it as they doe by an olde shoe are despicers of God worse then brute beastes Ath. Cannot men be lead by Gods spirit and serue God vnlesse they knowe the Scriptures GOD forbidde that all those shoulde bee awry which are not learned is it not enough for plaine countrie men plow men taylours and suche other for to haue their ten commaundementes the Lordes prayer and the beliefe I thinke these may suffice vs what shoulde wee meddle further I knowe men whiche are no scripture men whiche serue GOD as well as the best of them all Will yee condemne such Zelot I sayde before that men can not be lead by Gods spirite and refuse to knowe the Scriptures Neyther can they truelie serue him vntill suche time as they knowe howe for to serue him for GOD teacheth howe he will be serued and hee teacheth onlie in his worde his will is that we shal learne to know him by his worde And therefore he hath appointed the Ministerie of the woorde to continue for euer in his Church that by it men may be built vp in Christe as yee may reade Ephe. 4. For this cause S. Paule exhorteth Tymothie to bee instant in teaching in season out of season he trauelled himselfe night and daie he maketh a verie ferâ—eâ—â— prayer to God continuallie for the Collossians that they might bee fulfilled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdome and spirituall vnderstanding Collos ver 9. For this cause hee exhorteth the Christians to bee children in malice but not to bee children in vnderstanding The holy Ghost doth sharpely reprooue the Hebrewes as wee may see in the latter end of the 5. chap. of that Epistle because they were yet children to be taught when for the time they shoulde haue been teachers Againe there is
for those English Doctors whiche can alleadge no more but out of Paul and Peter Zelot It would bee a notable learned Sermon then if the Preacher shoulde speakâ— all latine Ath. Then wee whiche doe not vnderstande latine shoulde bee neuer the better Zelot If so little coulde pleasure you then no doubt a whole sermon would edifie yee much But such vayne men as you doe shew your vanitie when ye looke more after those thinges which should feede your eares then for to haue your soules conuerted Is that to be vsed which cannot edifie at all but serueth for a vaine shewe and disturbeth the minde and memorie of the diligent hearer But let this goe and let vs see the other for alleadging of writers in this matter yee haue sundrie graue men of your side which count those Sermons learned which are set foorth with all sortes of authorities and those which bring the bare worde out of the Bible they make but verball Sermons But doubtlesse they may shewe some grauitie in their beard for there is none in the matter Ath. Are they not thereby knowne for to be learned men euerye Plowe man nowe a dayes can alleadge out of Saint Paul Zelot They are thereby knowne for to bee vnskilfull men and such as are not rightly instructed in the doctrine of S. Paule They make a great shew of learning and yet want the knowledge of the dignitie of gods word When as they bring in the sayings of Plato and Aristotle as fellowes and companions with the oracles of God vttered by his Prophetes and Apostles and as though there were greater and deeper matter in those then in the Bible whereas all the heauenly mysteries and counsels of God are vttered they sticke not to count that vnlearned whiche is brought from thence and greate learning to bee in the sayinges of the other For this cause they doe also seeke for to gaâ—â—ish their sermons and as it were for to set them with pearle when as in effect they doe nothing else but as if a man shoulde mingle leade with pure golde and claye with precious oyle And because yee speake or learning tell me what ye thinke whether Saint Augustine or Saint Paule was the better learned Ath. You shoulde aske that question of such as are learned would yâ—e haue mâ—e tell yâ—e Zelot Is not hee which doth alleadge sentences out of Augustine Ambrose Hierome and Cyprian better learned then they which alleadge out of Moses Esay Peter Paule or Iohn Ath. I tolde ye before that euery man can alleadge out of these if I coulde ceade and had a Bible I coulde doe it also but to alleadge out of the other none can doe that but such as are great Clearkes Zelot Then it seemeth that they were better then Paul and Peter or Moses or els why should they be estemed to be better learned which do cite them Ath. If I might shoote my bolt I thinke they were the lâ—arnâ—der because their writings are so proâ—ounâ—e Zelot I woulde you did thinke so alone but in deede the people haue been so deluded with suche as would make a shew of learning that multitudes are of your mynde which bringeth in a vile and shamefull abasing of the most holy and sacred Bible But let me aske yee certayne questions Doe yee not thinke that if the writinges of those men were to be redde in our tongue that euerie man then coulde bee able to alleadge out of them as they doe out of the Byble Ath. I thinke they might then bee able Zelot Doe yee suppose those shoulde by and by be esteemed for to be learned whiche doe then alleadge sayinges out of them Ath. I sâ—e no cause why then they should not be counted so Zelot Is hee learned in the Bible which can alleadge many sentences Ath. A man may speake muche know little Zelot You might see likewise that men may alleadge sayinges out of great Doctors and yet themselues be great Dawes for hee is learned whom God doth teache for to vnderstande the heauenly mysteries vttered by the Prophetes and Apostles and in vttering them doeth followe the steppes of Paule and the rest The Doctours had all their true learning out of the Bible for in it is seâ—â—e foorth that wisedome whiche is aboue all Ath. The Scriptures are darke hard andâ— therefore men nowe doe not vnderstande them as the Doctors did And for this cause I haue heard preachers saye they are to be vouched Zelot Those Preachers might haue bin wiser then for to maintayne two so grosse opinions The first accusing the Scriptures of such darkenesse as though they coulde not bâ—e vnderstoode whereas in deede the principall and most necessarie poyntes the Lorde hath spoken so clearely that verye simple men maye bee taught for to see the plaine euidence of the worde The other depriueth the Churche of the true interpreter of the worde which is the spirite of God as though the Lord did not now giue such gifts as hee gaue to those Doctors which is a popish opinion also for so long as God giueth his worde to the Churche so long he giueth the interpreter of the same although not in all ages alike but whosoeuer is not blynde may easily see that in this age there bee as great giftes bestowed vppon the Church as euer were in any since the time of the Apostles Ath. Then you are one of those whiche deface the olde Fathers when yee will not allowe them for to 〈…〉 the Sermons To what vse then shoulde â—â—â— reade them Zelot That is a verye false accusation shoulde a man bee accused for deâ—â—â—ing the honour of the Lord Chauncellour because hee would denie him the dignitie and honor of the prince Likewise shall a man bee say de for to iniuâ—ie or deface the Doctors because hee will not giue them the dignitie whiche doeth belong vnto God alone The preacher is the mouth of God vnto the people and not the mouth of men hee is not for to vtter doubtfull matter and vncertayâ—e but suche as may be most euident He must say and proue euen vnto the conscience of the hearer thus God speaketh and thus hee meaneth Hee can not say Augustine saith it therefore God saieth it Augustine sayeth it therefore it is vndoubtedly true for Augustine might and did erre many wayes But hee may saie Saint Paule saith it therefore GOD him selfe saith it S. Paule saith therefore it is vndoubtedly true for looke what he saith or any other Apostle Euangelist or Prophete God hath set it downe by them it is his and not theirs they are but the instrumentes which he vsed for to vtter and penne his will his spirite in them ruled the whole in this case so that they did not nor coulde not erre nowe when the preacher doth laye open their saying not he nor they but GOD speaketh as they were the mouth of God for to set it downe so is hee nowe againe the mouth of God for to recite and declare it Ath.
it serue Zelot Howe proude and presumptuously bolde ignoraunce doth make a man It might seeme to bee a rare thing that a mortall man which is but claye and dust yea a rotten Carion shoulde aduaunce himselfe against God euen the Lorde of infinite wisedome and glorie but that wee see it dayly for to be common Ath. Doe not accuse me for to be proud I would I were as frée from all other faults if it pleased God Zelot If ye were as sicke as ye be proude a verie litle meate woulde giue yee your supper But I knowe you doe not see your pride Ath. I maruell why ye shoulde counte â—â— proude ye see how plaine I goe Zelot You thinke that pride is in the coate when it is in the heart a man may haue a kinges hearte in his breast and yet a beggers coate vppon his backe There is cause why yee doe not goe gay yee are not able for take the ragged dest begger in the worlde and giue her the same wing whiche the great Ladies haue and yee shall see her flie the same flight There is pride against GOD and against men and you are in the deepest of them euen agaynste God Ath. Prooue that because yée condemne me so sore Zelot Yee take your selfe for to bee wise and the Lorde vndiscrete and vnwise For yee charge him with follie when as yee say this doctrine doeth ouerthrowe all and yet hee hath expressed it in sundrie places of his woorde If it bee so exceeding hurtfull then surely Christ was to be blamed Saint Paule and saint Peter with the rest of the Apostles were verie vndiscrete because they haue sette it foorth It seemeth that it had been good for them to haue taken aduise of the deepe heades of the worlde whiche might haue foretolde them the daunger whiche woulde followe and haue saide Maisters take heede howe yee deale with suche doctrine it will turne yee vnto discretite O foolishe wise fleshe this matter is ouer farre beyonde thy reache thou canst neuer come within the smell of it Ath. Smell or smel not let me heare yée aunsweare the matter Zelot You suppose that your reasons are vnaunswerable and that causeth yee to bee so freshe and readie but alas man your halfepenie is no good siluer yee are in a wrong boxe I will shewe you howe childishly ye erre Forsooth say you if God hath chosen a man to saluation before hee was borne then let him doe as euill as he can hee shall not bee damned and whereas the nature of man is prone and readie to seeke after the libertie of the fleshe this doth open a doore vnto him and a wide passage vnto all euill because he needeth not to care what he doth it is appointed before hande what shall become of him This mightie and inuincible reason of yours hath neuer an eye to see with all and although it seeme for to haue good legges yet is it but an olde Criple be not led by it for yee shall both fall into the ditch Did yee neuer heare what S. Paule sayth Ephesians Chapter I. 4. these are his wordes as he hath chosen vs in him before the foundations of the worlde were layde that wee shoulde bee holy and without blame before him through loue Howe stand these two thinges together when you say if men be chosen they may liue as they lust and God sayth by his Apostle that hee hath chosen them for to bee holy and blamelesse in their conuersation And this is vndoubtedly true that those whom God hath predestinate to bee heires of glory hee hath sealed them with the holy Spirite as yee maye reade in the same Chapter They are freed from the bondage of sinne by the spirite they walke in the spirite they are led by the spirite they shewe forth by the fruites of the spirite that the flesh with the lustes and concupiscences thereof is crucified in them and that they are regenerate and 〈…〉 againe of the spirite and so become newe creatures in Christ sinne is abhominable vnto them they hate loth it no lesse then deadlie poison they pant and breath to be wholy set free from the remnantes of it Righteousnesse is deare and precious vnto them their ioye and heartes delight is in it They sigh and grone because they can not reache vnto the perfection of it The word of God doth plainely teach that the electe are thus as I haue shewed and yet men say that election taketh away all care of Godlye life Ath. I like not this that men will saye they know God hath chosen them howe can they tell Can any man tell what God will doe with him Did God euer tell them that they are elected Zelot Howe shoulde you like of this when as yee like of no goodnesse Howe shoulde you which are but a naturall man iudge of thinges spirituall You thinke a man can not tell what GOD will do with him because you are blinde and see not the way ye suppose all other are so you are an Infidell or els ye might plainly heare GOD speake in his woord and tell which shall be saued and which are in the way to damnation Doe ye suppose that it is vncertayne when the scripture telleth a man howe he shall knowe that he is chosen if the woorde of God tell him he is chosen hath not God himselfe then tolde him Read the first Chapter of the seconde Epistle of Peter and there yee shall see how a man shall knowe certainely that he is elected and that hee shall neuer fall For if a man feele that GOD teacheth him by his spirite and reneweth him by repentaunce he is sure because God sayth so that he is chosen to eternall life if at any time hee feele the grace of GOD weake in him then doeth hee doubt and stagger but yet his fayth getteth the vpper hande On the other side when a man liueth in sinne and obeyeth vnrighteousnesse God telleth him plainely that he is in the way to damnation And therefore all those which do not finde in them selues the spirituall birth at the least begunne whereby they may assure them selues that they be chosen May certainly say that as yet their state is damnable Ath. Howe can yee saye their state is damnable so long as they beléeue Can men do more then beléeue Zelot They doe not beleeue for if they beleeue then are they sure that GOD loueth them what is it else which they beleeue if they knowe they bee in fauour with God it is because he chose them in Christ If they doubt of Gods fauour then doe they doubt whether God heareth their prayers therefore they shall not receyue any thing at the handes of GOD as ye may learne in the Epistle of Saint Iames. Chapter 1. verse 6 7. and although manie of the faithfull doe doubt stagger oftentimes yet they are not like the vnfaithful which coÌ„tinue in the same but they get the vpper hande they striue by prayer by
al other meanes which god hath appointed to strengthen and increase their faith their knowledge their repentance and so farre to growe in grace vntill they come to assurance that God hath chosen them As for the wicked they know of no such faith that a man may atraine to assurance of his election they labour not about anie such matter but continue still in their blinde doubtes setting all vpon hazzard and as for their doing what they can it is nothing they cannot but sinne and therefore be damned howesoeuer they seeme for to do good workes yet before God they are no good workes because they proceede not of faith but from the flesh they are not grafted into the true vine Christ and for that cause can bring forth no fruite Ioh. 15. Ath. If GOD had chosen men before â—â—â— worlde â—o bee saued Wherefore did Christ dye for to saue them If they shoulde bee saued before his death was more then needed Wherefore should men bee taught wherefore should they prayâ— all these are in vaine Zelot You are like vnto a man whiche doeth make strife and debate betweene brethren and friendes you woulde set prayer and teaching and the death of Christ together by the eares with Gods election but doe what yee can all these will agree well together they bee so vnseparably knit in friendship God hath chosen men for to be redeemed in his sonne For the scripture sheweth that we are chosen in Christ He hath chosen men to bee instructed and called by preaching the woord he hath chosen men for to call vpon him and to worship him in holynes and righteousnes all the dayes of their life Ath. Ye speake much of preaching preaching as though it were so needful Can they make the worde of God better then it is Is there not enough set downe in the Bible for men to reade wherefore shoulde they adde more Can not men reade that Is not reading preaching Zelot Now ye seeke new starting holes There is some Colt so wilde that he will trouble halfe a dosen light men of foote for to driue him hee will in at euery gappe turne at euery lane and out at euery gate Euen so I can liken the reasoning with such as you are yee haue so many by shiftes so many cauils so many turninges that ten of the best learned in this lande shall hardly bee able to keepe ye in the way But wee must not leaue yee thus but bring yee into the way againe Preaching is not so needefull they can make the worde of God no better then it is why man they doe not preache for to make the worde better but for to make you better There is enough set downe in the Bible but you vnderstand little enough of it Men may reade it as a great number doe which peruert it and are nothing bettered by it because they seeke not helpe for to vnderstande it Reading say you is preaching Truly then I knowe a man which hath a little daughter that is a trimme Preacher I perceiue our lande is full of Preachers but yet in deede not such as Saint Paule describeth For the little girle is not apt to teach able to instruct to exhort to conuince not to deuide or cut the worde of God aright nor to open the Mysteries of it If yee leape ouer many of these ditches yee will breake your necke in the ende ye are a very skilfull man when yee take expounding and applying the worde of God for to be adding for ye aske why they should adde Ath Are not men allowed which are but readers euen by the learnedst in the lande Doe yée finde faulte with the Bishoppes or are yee one of those whiche doe not allowe of Bishops for such fellowes there be nowe a dayes Zelot I would ye should know that I am none of those which disalow Bishops when as the worde of God doth set it downe to be a worthie worke it is a very reuerende office exceedingly they are to be blamed which doe contemne it or deface it God hath ordeined the office of Bishops in his Church for to gouerne and feede his people such as would abolish this ordinance of God doe resist God and are enemies vnto the Church of Christ Ath. By my faith I like yée the better for that Zelot I like you neuer the better for your swearing Ath. I am not so precise as too make any account of swearing by my faith Zelot I thinke so for faith is no more account made of then as a packehorse all is laide on his backe Ath. I pray God we may doe no worse and then I hope wee shall doe well enough are you without sinne I doubt not but yee will commit as great offence to GOD as this or euer the weeke bee ended Pull the beame out of your owne eye If euery man woulde looke to himselfe there shoulde not bee so much finding faulte one with an other Zelot Where learne ye that prayer in the scripture The Prophet Dauid Psalme 19. Prayeth to be cleansed from his secrete sinnes although they bee neuer so small Where learned ye to speake after this sorte no woorse and that yee hope then to doe well enough Is it nothing to breake so straight a rule of Christ Doe yee not thinke that children dying in their infancie before they can speake or woorke are damned for lesse sins I speake of such as are not of Gods Church When as they haue onely originall sin You know not from how euil a roote this â—inne doth spring neither doee ye know the foulenesse of sinne and therefore ye cannot tell how much God doth abhorre it condemne it For this cause being as full of filthy vices and prophane sinnes as ye caÌ„ be thrust and of such in deede as God doth curse and hate because they seeme small vnto you ye suppose ye shal do wel ynough What if I haue greater in me or that I shall coÌ„mit greater as you say before the weeke be ended doth that excuse you I haue many secret sinnes in me which I do not see because I do not perfectly vnderstaÌ„d the law of God for these I doe earnestly intreat the Lord to make them knowne vnto me by giuing me more perfect vnderstanding of his will and also to giue me power for to cast them out I haue also many sinnes in mee which I see and knowe that cleane so fast that I cannot vtterly cast them foorth notwithstanding I hate and abhorre them I am wearie of them I fight against them I grone and sigh in my heart with sorowe for them I feele no sweetnesse in them for they are more bitter then Gall vnto my soule I am exceeding glad when I can suppresse them I haue professed and vowed a continuall warre against them and although I preuaile not so farre as to bee vtterly ridde of them yet I labour by meditation in gods worde and by heartie prayer to bring them vnder that they raigne not ouer