up a new name for our Ministers the men in black Are not these excellent Servants of Jesus Christ holy men of God that teach the people nick-names for us What will please those who can neither indure the men in white nor the men in black Or what will reform those who after they have been admonisht of the foulness of this crime in others and think they were too sharply rebuked for it commit it impudently themselves N. C. He confesses with shame and sorrow that the common people have too much reproached your Ministers as they went along the Streets l P. 239. C. So much the more reason for a a deeper blush and greater confusion in his face that he should still continue the reproaches But mark I pray his base hypocrisie for I can make nothing else of it who will not forbear even when he is confessing a sin with shame and sorrow to make himself merry and so to take away all sense of it They should not have reproached them saith he if they met them sober and their present gesture was not bowing and reeling What was this but to abate the edg of his reproof and to make the guilty smile when he should have made them cry Reproof did I call it No. He hath none for so petty a crime as this It is but a trifle to call a good Minister Baal's Priest Black Devil as one lately called an excellent person For this is all he hath to say to it It was and is very uncomely to reproach them when they meet them sober c. Very uncomly O! How mild and gentle the man is grown on a suddain How cool and lost is his breath after all his blostering as if he would not molest a feather He is as tender as that Gentleman who told us the main thing in which all Gods people generally from the hâ—ghest to the lowest have been too unskilful is denying self and contemning those allurements of gain which puff up the mind of men with boasting and vain glory m Short Discourse concerning the work of God in this Nation 1659. pag. 5. or as those that said the Brownists who had faln into a damnable Schism as I told you the last time n Out of Mr. Gifford pag. 329. of the Continuation were a little over-shâ—t in some matters Alas for them that they should be such shrewd men at getting mony and so unskilful in self-denial Verily it is a defect It is not well that they have gone so farr from the Church of God Nor is it a comely thing that his Ministers should be reviled No it is very uncomely They ought to have passed them by civilly o P. 240. of his Answ indeed they ought But how if they do not Why they may be Saints for all that as far as I can perceive only not so mannerly as he wishes they were Or if they be not they may think themselves to be so notwithstanding any thing this Gentleman hath to say who dares not displease them And here if you observe it he hath given us a notable proof of his disingenuity and spightful folly in thrusting into his Book so many idle stories whose Authors we know not where to find and of which he himself hath no assurance I could tell you saith he of a Link-boy c. Could tell us What more than he hath told us No. Who he was saith he I cannot tell p Ib p. 48. A pretty piece of hypocrisie to make a show as if he would not tell a story and in that very breath to tell as much of it as he knows And a fine way of writing falsly to blot Paper with stories taken up in the Streets of he cannot tell whom One of M. Bucer's Pharisees I see is revived that easily believes tales and having rashly believed them loves to spread and scatter them abroad q Continuation pag. 260. And he is so much the worse because when he distrusts them yet he will not stick to report them I shall not meddle with the private stories notoriously false which he hath helpt to blow about though if he go on at the rate he hath begun he may be brought in danger of the Statute against the Spreaders of false News you may find another absurd passage in his Book p. 266. which he dares not affirm upon â—â—s word For it was used he saith if I mistake not by one of your Preachers and it was this or to this effect c. I have discovered so many of his mistakes that I can see no reason to believe it It might be a a Preacher of your own who spoke those words or he might not speak to that purpose but some other But they say p. 292 they are reported p. 240. If fame may be trusted p. 244. and such like Authorities are brought as the strongest warrant he hath for his tale wherewith he abuses the people and slanders his neighbours You may wonder indeed as I find a great stickler r W. Walwyn Fountain of Slander discovered 1649. p. 8. in the late times notably discoursing That Religious people are so ready to catch and carry aspersions from man to man and not have so much honesty and charity as first to be fully satisfied of the truth of that which they report and that the taking away of mens good name should be thought no sin among them But truly saith he I do not wonder at it for where notional or verbal Religion which at best is but Superstitiâ—n is Author of that little shadow of goodness which possesses men it is no marvel they have so little hold of themselves for they want that innate imbred virtue which makes men good men that pure and undefiled Religion which truly denominates them good Christians and which only gives strength against temptations of this nature This is the great defect of your Philagathus who hath so little even of that innate honesty which is in many men short of Christianity that he doth far worse things than those which displease him in others He finds fault with me for looking so far back as 1642 and that when there was a good cause for it and when I quoted good and undoubted Authorities but he most basely drags in a vagrant story s P. 140. which his Ignorant Readers may think to be piping hot as he speaks in another place out of the Pulpit when in truth it is so old that he knows not the Original of it For the Crocodile of Time and the Dog of the Discourse were laught at long before he saw the University With such stories I doubt not he is able to furnish us without any number though we had not his word for it Every boy can do as much And rather than fail he for his part is so unworthy that he will stoop to believe Libels and thence increase the long list of his tales which he hath mustered up N. C. You wrong him surely
people yet they ceased not to cry out that to deny the dispossession was in a sort to deny the Gospel It appeared so evidently said the Author of the brief Narration to be the finger of God as though we our selves should forsake it and with Judas betray our Master yea with Pharoah set our selves to obscure it yet the Lord if he love us will rather make the stones to cry out and utter it Yea the Devils themselves to acknowledge it then it shall be hid And I would advise them that slander this work and persecute the Servants of God without cause * For Darrel you must know was imprisoned to take heed lest they be found even fighters against God Now would you know what the business was which made these men stickle and clamour in this fashion It was briefly this When Mr. Darrel and his friends prayed by the Book the boy or as they said the Devil in him was but little moved but when they used such prayers as for the present occasion they conceived then the wicked spirit was much troubled He acknowledged them also to be powerful men and that he was much tormented by their powerful preaching ** Disco very p. 35.48.49.50 This was it which tormented the Bishops also to see such mean persons do such wonderful things or to use their own words It cannot be indured said the Narration c vid. p. 6. that these kind of men which are accounted the off-scouring of the world should be thought to have such interest in Christ Jesus as that by their prayers and fasting he should as it were visibly descend from Heaven and tread down Satan under their feet whereas other men ☞ who account themselves more learned excellent and wise than they do not with all their Physick Rhetorick pomp and primacy accomplish the like But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise and the weak things of the world to confound the mighty A place of Scripture as well applied as that in the 4th of St. Matthew He shall give his Angels charge over thee c. and very fit to stir up the peoples hatred against their Governours who appeared against this Holy Cause as they called it and laboured to suppress this mighty work of God N. C. I haue no leisure to hear these old stories long since dead and buried C. Nor have I any need to look so far back For this very Scriblers Book which you tell me of is a bundle of such like lewd and impudent tricks and shifts as I have mentioned though the truth of it is they are so poorly managed that any one may see he is a meer bungler in his own trade and elther for want of wit or through the violence of his passion cannot understand so much as common sense N. C. O Luciferian Pride O attempts to outrail Ralyhakeh You may make another Lucian in time I had almost said another Julian if you persist in this way C. You have his words by heart a p. 31. of his answer and it is most stoutly and resolutely answered But I must tell you it hath been alwaies thought as Mr. Chillingworth well observes a mark of a lost and despairing cause to support it self with impetuous outcries and clamours the faint refuges of those that want better arguments And little doth he know whom he imitates in these brutish exclamations I never saw any man more like that fellow in Lucian who cryed O b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 accursed wretch O damn'd villain when he could say nothing else N. C. Yes both he and we have something else to say C. That is you have a scornful and supercilious way of pittying those whom you have a mind to vilifie which carries with it some shew of goodnesse when it proceeds from a great disdain of others and an high opinion of your selves You may remember it is like without sending you to a Book of undoubted credit where you may find it who it was that said publiquely He intended to have preached before the poor wretch viz. his late Majesty then near his death upon 14. Isa 18.19 c. but the poor wretch said he would not hear me Another also having jeered our Divine Service as much as he pleased at last wiping his mouth sanctified all with a sigh or two over us as poor deluded Souls and then we were much indebted to his charity N. C. You will be called to an account one day for your malevolent and mischievous writings C. That 's another way you have to astonish and delude the Multitude by thundring out Threatnings and denouncing Judgments against us in which this Gentleman is very powerful and may pass for a Boanerges There being this device also accompanying it to make the Art more effectual which is to cry out Blasphemy if we do but mention any of your Follies to tell the people as T. W. doth a Epistle to a new sermon câ—lled the Fiery Serpents 19. Febr. 1668. that you wish we have not sinned the sin unto death and to bid us take heed that some do not think as this scribler speaks we have done despight to the spirit of grace b p. 101. of sober Answer Thus I remember some wrote a letter to Bp. Mâ—ntague c Annexed to the appeal of the Orthodox Ministers as they called themselves to the Par. against him printed at Edinburg 1641. wherein they do bat charitably hope he hath not committed the Unpardonable sin exhorting him to recant publiquely of his malitious Errors and Heresies or else they tell him he could never have Salvation But after this as if they were in no danger do they what they would a fit of railing follows wherein they upbraid him with his birth and parentage nay with his very looks and visage in such vile language as I will not name and at last conclude in this fashion If you can love the Lord Jesus and do belong to his Election of grace d p. 31. N. C. Me thinks you have an art beyond all these having shifted and put me off thus long from what I was going to say that your Book is answered and C. And soberly too as the Title pretends N. C. Yes C. That 's strange when he roars and cries out so hideously as we have heard and complains that he is in a passion that I have made him spit and sputter nay spue in my very face N. C. Do not use such words C. They are his own confessions a p. 14.31 289. And he acknowledges withall that he was impatient till he came out against me that he could not find a man so imprudent and desperate as himself b pag. 2.3.31 and having lay'd about him very furiously he puffs and blows and saies he is overheated in so much that he is fain to cool himself again with some Holy breath and falls to prayer when he can exclaim against me no
others ought to believe They might still justly ask how those men came by their faith what was the cause and grounâ— of it If they said the Spirit perswaded them How could they tell there was such a Spirit or that a divine power wrought in them unless they saw it by its effects which were the Demonstration to Unbelievers If you say it was known by the change of mens lives the exception against that as no sufficient proof of Christianity is because many who believed were not throughly changed but still lived ungodlily even iâ— the Corinthian Church There was some change also wrought in several men by mere Philosophers and among the Jews before the Preaching of Christ there were many very good men and women If by Spirit you will at last say is meant the ancient Prophesies without the extraordinary Interpretation by the Holy Ghost which appeared many ways to be in the Apostles that will not do neither as you have heard unless you will imagine the Apostles preached to the Jews only for that would have been to alledg one unknown thing for the proof of another and as if we should offer those for Sureties for whose credit we need Certificates and Pledges The Question I say would still have remained How do you demonstrate those Prophesies to be Divine Revelations on which we ought to rely N. C. No more words I am satisfied C. And you are satisfied I hope that this is a man not worthy to be credited and that instead of Philagathus a name borrowed I think from Mr. Dents plain mans pathway to Heaven he deserves to be called Antilegon * The name of another person in that Dialogae a meer Caviller and Contradicter that loves to wrangle and scold and gainsay right or wrong The very Spirit of the ancient Sophisters whom Plato cals by that name of Contradicters and opposers e In sophista 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he seems to me to be such a master in the Faculty that he can shut his eies when he pleases and fall a quarrelling with any thing that comes in his way But I hope after this Discovery of his tolly he will cease to prate and outface and labour to prove what he saith otherwise I have some hope that none who read this will give him any credit unless it be perhaps some goslings of his own brooâ—ng f They are Bp. Whites words to a nameless pamphleter p. 118. Be not ang y for I assure you I have not the leaâ— spark ofâ—r nor was he able with all his scurrility to provoke me to kindle against him all the time I read his Book N. C. You boast a little too much C. I must say it that he and you may know how much I contemn such opposers who may provoke one to laughter but not to anger No not though they should be so unmannerly and clownishly despightful as this rude scholar of that Cynick Philosopher I named is who professes to have vomited his gall or as he calls it delivered his stomach in my face N. C. It sticks in your stomach sure you mention it so oft C. He loves repetitions which makes me lay it in his dish again But as I was going to tell you it immediately 〈◊〉 be to my mind these words of Mr. Burrough g Vindication againsâ— Mr. Edwards p. 3. and that was all the hurt it old me There is an odious disease in Nature casting up the excrements at the Mouth which is no lesse noisome than dangerous and therefore the Physicians call it Miserere mei Deus Thus exulcerated minds affected with the like malady in Morality being surcharged with superfluity of choler and malice and not able to contain break forth into distemper of words and pour it out in unsavory language such we must leave to a miscrere and if they will not pray of themselves we must do it for them and say Lord have mercy on them That 's all I have to say about this to your cholerick Antilegon And if you have a desire since they say some hold him for a wit that he should continue to discharge himself in this manner for the service of the cause I am so little concerned about it that you may put forth another Petition and never trouble me in the language which some of you used against another Gentleman that he may have free leave and liberty to run at the Mouth though it be not natural that excrements should come up stairs as long as he pleases to scrible still without check or controul because as it is humbly conceived all the danger of him is want of vent and the more he is prohibited the more perhaps he will do that which he is forbiddâ— by Lawful Authority and the more 〈◊〉 will think himself considerable if opposes by them whom he rails at h To the Supream Authority of the Nation the humble Petition of certain peaceable people against c. 1659. N. C. Why do you then meddle with him C. You forced me to it by your continual talking and urging of me otherwise I assure you I should have despised him and let him alone N. C. I confess I had a mind to her what you could say about this Demâ— stration of the Spirit and of Power because it was commonly said you forsooâ— the General current of Divines in yoâ—â— exposition C. Just so Heshusius dealt with gooâ— Melancthon whom he boldly accused of Blasphemy and said he treacherously and prophanely plaid or made sport with the Scriptures because he preferred the most antient writers of the Church before his Authority i So Paulus Ebetus tels us in his preface before his Comments on this Epistle to the Corinth And you have not forgot I suppose what some said of Mr. Baxter because he left the modern opinion concerning the sin against the Holy Ghest though he endeavoured to establish a better in the room of it But if it will do them any pleasure still to bawl and make a noise I will give my self no further trouble about this matter in which I have been too long already And therefore I will not give my self the like liberty in ripping up every one of his gross errors and vain braggs which if I should carefully spread before your face so that you might plainly discern them it would make a volumn five times as big as his Which is such a fardel of Ignorance and impudence of disingenuity spight and evill surmisings of such false dealing downright lying pervertings of my meaning wrangling without cause vanity presumption abuse of holy Scripture idle shifts and excuses for faults that I never yet saw the like in so great abundance in any book in my life nor I think ever shall N.C. A very high charge proceeding it will be thought from your vain-confidence and the height of your pride for which he hath given you so many buffets C. I feel them not nor have any thing the
justifie him For so all Instruments do help the principal cause And yet by a self contradiction this opinion makes Faith to be of no moral worth and so no vertue or grace yea I think it lays the blame of mans infidelity on God For the assertors of it have a device to make it a passive Instrument from whence follow these absurdities N. C. I will not trouble my brains about it but I see I may omit a Question which he asks you viz. Do you not think that good works are the Instrumental cause of our Justification as well as Faith C. I must tell you in brief that all the Questions he propounds to me in that place are such as he would never have askt if he had but attain'd a smattering knowledg in Mr. Baxter's writings whom he commends just as he discommends me without understanding him For he would have taught him That neither Faith nor any work of ours are causes of our Justification either Principal or Instrumental u Confess of Faith pag. 31. and other places Disput of Justific pag. 75. N. C. But there is one Question he asks wherein he prays you to speak out for it is suspected there is a Snake in your Grass C. A Maggot in his Brain N. C. And that is are not Faith and Obedience both one and the same thing C. He hath a resolution in Mr. Baxter Our first Faith is not the same with Obedience to Christ how should it yet it essentially contains are solution and Covenant to obey him x Confess of Faith p. 38 39. But there is no end of these impertinent Questions You will ask me next how I prove my self not to be a Papist N. C. No I 'le let the rest alone because I see what you will say and this indeed was not the main thing that you and I first intended to debate Yet there are some Questions about this matter in another place to which I would gladly have though it be but a brief Answer C. Where shall we find them N. C. There where he comes to your description of Faith pag. 63. C. I remember the place Where I find him in the same posture that the Bishop of Galloway did his Reprover vexing himself with his own anger tumbling and weltring in the puddle of his tumultuous thoughts whereof he cannot rid himself bragging most vainly but producing nothing that may be accounted worthy of an answer y Defence pag. 169. For I having told you that the Faith our Saviour speaks of in those words Joh. 6.29 This is the work of God that you beleive on him whom he hath sent viz. justifying and saving Faith is an effectual perswasion that Jesus is sent of God He very gravely tells me that I deny Faith to consist in assent or perswasion which are the same thing and so contradict the men of my way Was there ever such a giddy-braind man as this set a cock-horse who posts away without his Errand and tells the world I deny Faith to be an assent or perswasion when I tell him it is Doth he no◠deserve to have his fingers rapt or to be soundly scourged that takes Pen in hand to confute a Book and never minds or else understands not what he writes against N. C. But you say Faith consists not in a bare perswasion c. C. True That saving Faith which I speak of doth not consist in a bare assent to the Truth of the Gospel but yet it is an assent though it be something more Assent is the General nature of Faith but there is a difference between Faith that is saving and Faith that is not saving which I there expressed by the word effectual And here again he blunders and keeps a pudder to make a plain ching obscure N. C. You will not say it was plain sure C. Yes but I will though nothing can be so plain and clear which th◠mans confused thoughts shall not trouble The difference I made between this Faith which our Saviour speaks of and a bare perswasion that he came from God was this that it is a perswasion of that Truth with its fruits and effects Which I expessed in these words becoming his Disciples sincere Profession of his Religion and living according to it For unless our minds being convinced of the Truth it have this effect upon our wills to make us consent to obey it and sincerely purpose to do according to our perswasion and unless also if we live we make good this purpose and both profess and perform obedience to the Gospel we do not the work of God which our Saviour speaks of nor have that faith which will bring us to everlasting life This he might have found affirm'd by Mr. Baxter in as round words as mine if he had spent that time in reading and meditating which he spends in scribling It 's all one saith he z Appendix to Disput of Right to the Sacraments p. 509. in my account to believe in Christ and to become a Christian c. To be a believer a Disput of Justif p. 77 78. and to be a Disciple of Christ in Scripture sense is all one and so to be a Disciple and to be a Christian and therefore Justifying faith comprehends all that is essential to our Discipleship or Christianity as its constitutive causes To which he adds this Proposition Those therefore who call any one act or two by the name of Justifying Faith and all the rest by the name of works and say that it is only the act of recumbency on Christ as Priest or on Christ as dying for us or only the act of apprehending or accepting his imputed righteousness by which we are justified c. do pervert the Doctrine of Faith and Justification ☞ and their Doctrine tendeth to corrupt the very nature of Christianity it self I could add a great deal more with as much ease as I can write but that I think this sufficient to be replyed to his long babble about the Nature o◠Faith and we must not suppose the world at leisure to read the same thing over perpetually If it do not satisfie him let him enjoy the vain conceit of his own skill nay let him crow over me and bear himself with the same pertness to use an expression I have somewhere met with that a Daw sits cawing an◠pecking upon a Sheeps back He will be but a Jack Daw for all that N. C. You grant then that there may be a perswalion where it is not effectual C. Who doubts of it But it is not saving Faith which was the thing 〈◊〉 were speaking of As he might have observed had he not kept such a cawing to himself that he could not hear us N. C. He makes account the Questions he asks you there are unanswerable C. He doth so And not to dissemble they seem to be no less subtil and profound than the admired Cryptick Question of Chrysippus if you ever heard
that he thought letter upon letter might be as necessary as precept upon precept line upon line twice over which are the Prophets words Isa 28.10 C. He prophanes the Holy Scripture throughout his whole Book by using its words on every common and trivial occasion But let him repeat it a thousand times till he hath made his own head ake as well as his Readers I shall remain as innocent and you as guilty as before only he himsef will appear more boldly Ignorant For he is like those men who write of Countries they never saw who commonly tell a great many tales I have great cause to be confident that he never read this Act seriously about which he talks so much but only poured a flood of words with a great noise out of his own unfurnisht brains With these he hoped to make his credulous Readers like those who live near the falls of Nilus deaf to any other Information though never so certain N. C. You cannot think him so bold as to charge you with breaking an Act the matter of which he did not understand C. Then he is a dishonest man if having read it and understood it he would not confess the truth which is this Within two or three days after his Majesties return he desired the Parliament which then sate speedily to dispatch an Act of Indemnity which he had promised After it had passed the Commons he went to the Peers k Speech in House of Peers July 27. 1660. and expressed his impatient desire to have this Act presented to him for his Royal assent Accordingly upon Aug. 29. 1660. this Act was passed as an Act of free and General Pardon Indemnity and Oblivion And in the Preface to it these two intents and purposes of it are expressed First that no crime committed against his Majesty or his Royal Father shall hereafter rise in Judgment or be brought in Question against any one to the least indamagement of them c. Secondly To bury all Seeds of future discords and remembrances of the former Accordingly the Former part of the Act is for Indemnity and provides for mens safety by acquitting releasing and discharging all persons from all crimes save those excepted afterward committed from Jan. 1. 1637. till June 24. 1660. And then the other part which concerns our present-business is for Oblivion in these words To the intent and purpose that all Names and terms of distinction may be likewise put in utter Oblivion be it enacted that if any person or persons within the space of three years next ensuing shall presume maliciously to call or alledg * The particle Of is to be left out as appears by the Chancellours Speech made afward where he recites these words of or object against any other person or persons any name or names or other words of reproach any way tending to revive the memory of the late differences or occasions thereof that every such person so as aforesaid offending shall forfeit and pay unto the party grieved if he be a Gentleman ten pound c. This clause the Lord Chancellor at their adjournment Sept. 13. 1660. commended in his Majesties Name to their and all mens remembrance Now mark the Ignorance and the Malice of this Philagathus as he falssly stiles himself His bold Ignorance in that he would have the world believe I have violated nay horribly violated l Pag. 7. of the Preface this Law as it is an Act of Indemnity for in that stile he speaks when I have not so much aâ— a power to punish any man though he were not acquitted and discharged His malice in perswading you that it is the drift of my Book to provoke the Magistrates to break it in pieces in their anger as Moses did the Tables of Stone m Ib. p. 6. when it hath no design in those passages which have so netled him but either to shew that they act not according to their declared Principles in times past or that they have not so behaved themselves as to deserve the name of the only or most knowing and godly people which they commonly assume to themselves In which I will shew you by and by how they break this as well as other of his Majesties Laws But first let us mark again how rashly and impudently he charges me with the breach of this Law as it is an Act of Oblivion which must be distinguished from the other though they He confused as all things else in his head and how he manifestly discovers he never read it or with no care to understand it The Act saith we shall not object against any person any name or names or other words of reproach under such a penalty But this man saith with a bold face it is expressly provided in the Act of Indemnity that the crimes therein mentioned as forgiven should no more be objected to any man under a certain penalty p. 249. The same he saith in another place n Pag. 88. without any stick and that those old things must never more according to that Act be so much as rehearsed o P. 142. which is less then objected And more then this he affirms that we may not so much as speak of any Ordinance of Parliament which was formerly made p P. 254. and therefore like a man of an exceeding nice and tender Conscience he dares not so much as seem to know or remember that ever there were any such Ordinances q These are his very words as I mention A special way to Answer me by saying nay by knowing just Nothing But judg now of the modesty and sincerity of this man who makes bold as he speaks to take me to task for the breach of a Law whose words he never recites nay always puts other words of his own making in the room of them And judg of his discretion and understanding Who can let it enter into his thoughts that the Law prohibits us so much as to remember what was done in the late Times Suppose we hear them call us shortly the old and the implacable Enemy must we not so much as seem to call to mind that this was the stile of those days If they begin to talk of the Holy cause and the Good old cause must we according to this new Doctor seal up our lips and make as if we never heard of such a thing before What may we not so much as write a true History of what is past This is the thing no doubt they would be at We must forget as I told you at our last meeting r Contin of the Debate p. 66. all that is past and now believe you cannot err nay were always innocent This will be a fine way to keep posterity in Ignorance that you may do the like again and never be suspected till it be too late to prevent it A most admirable contrivance for which he will be well rewarded if he can make it good to turn us
herefore it is lawful to go about that â—ork which cannot be done unless we â—â—st discover them and then shew the rottenness of them and let the people see how much they have been cheated by them I could add a great deal more out of other Papers but I think it time to make an end having sufficiently shewn that all that this man and his pertakers talk about these matters is only smoak and vapour which will not abide the touch and that they deal with the Act of Oblivion as they do with the Divine Writings If they get a word by the end they make a great noise and cannot tell when to have done with it never minding the sense At they cry Free grace and the Covenant 〈◊〉 grace the Covenant of Grace so they cry the Act of Oblivion the Act of Oblivion But look into either of them and consider them well and you will find they are no such thing as thâ—â— which they mean by them N. C. Let the world judg between you For I will meddle no further iâ— this matter C. It is the greatest favour I would desire of you all that you would iâ— down calmly and after both sides heard indifferently judg between us You would soon see I make no doubt that his Book and not that which m As he pretends p. 26 of the preface he writes against is a fiery invective But the mischief of it is that many of you will never read what we write You will only hear of one ear and believe what a man of your party saies and then all' your own For which Partiality if you judg not your selves God will Among those also who will read our writings there are so few I doubt that consider or that are able to make a tryal and discern when a cause is well maintain'd and when not as Mr. Baxter n Preface to his Confession of Faith speaks that he who will confidently pour out words how far soever he digress from the Truth or mark is as soon believed as he that gives the soundest reason But then let such a man pretend zeal for Religion which is the cause of all this stir let him bawl and cry aloud and say his Adversary is an enemy to it or hath laid a train to blow it up and that He is come forth with great hazard to himself to prevent that mischief and shall be a Martyr if he dye in the quarrel o As that man tells us p. 26 of the pref He will be sure to be admired and held in great Veneration by the Ignorant people When he hath once fill'd their ears with the sound of these things his work is done to purpose and it will be hard to get a word we have to say to enter into them Especially if the man who hath ingaged the affections of unwary Souls in this manner joyn a shew of Mortification contempt of the World dislike and hatred of all sin together with his zeal for the cause of God and Godliness When they see men go simply in the Streets saith the Bishop p Speech at Lisnegarvy I named the last time and bow down their heads like a Bulrush wringing their necks awry shaking their heads as though they were in some present grief c. when they hear them give great groans and cry out against this and that sin not in their own hearers but in others especially their Superiours and finally make long Prayers when I say the multitude hear and see such kind of men they are by and by carried away with a marvellous great conceit and opinion of them And with such shews have many Pharasaical Teachers drawn the multitude after them who have not their senses exercised to discern between good and evil but judg only by the outward appearance N. C. God send you and me a right judgment in all things C. We must not only pray but labour for it by subduing our Passions and laying aside all Prejudices so that we may with indifferent and equal minds consider and try all things and be inclined by nothing but truth N. C. It is a hard matter to keep our selves from being byassed by something or other And the goodness of any man is apt I confess not only to draw and incline my affections to him but to make me of his belief C. Are there no good men think you who want judgment and are of a weak understanding Must you believe all they say because you know they will not deceive you They may be deceived themselves They may be ignorant and then be transported by their zeal as this man is to talk of things they understand not N. C. I will not easily believe him without strict examination whatsoever credit I give to others C. You had need be the more careful because the confidence which some men use may make you too much presume of their knowledg As I doubt this mans boldness in his Assertions and in his Rebukes will deceive many He beseeches me for instance with no small scorn to reconcile two passages in my first Book which he saith are as opposite one to the other as the East and West or to make a greater sound the Artick and Antartick Poles q P. 274. both which you must think he hath seen as he past through all the Signs of the Zodiack of their Sufferings One is in p. 95. where I say that according to the Covenant you ought to have some Form of Divine Service because you bound your selves to reform according to the best reformed Churches The other is pag. 223. where it is affirm'd that you took Scotland for the best reformed Church and therefore they must be the pattern Now I pray Sir saith Philag What Liturgy had they wont to use in Scotland or When was the Church of Scotland for the use of a Liturgy If they were always against and without a Form of Divine Service by their good will how are men bound by the Covenant to use a form of Divine Service every time they meet by being bound to reform according to their pattern And he concludes with a piece of Latine imprting that a Lyar ought to have a good memory N. C. That might have been spared But I think he hath charged you shrewdly C. I think the stroke will return with a vengeance upon himself and he will find he hath wounded his own credit and not mine But I confess the reading of this made me sigh to think that the Nation should be thus abused by every forward and daring man who hath so good an opinion of himself as to write Books and become a publick Instructer of others If wise men will not take care to remedy it they must be content to see themselves as well as us over-run with folly And what remedy is there but that no man be the judg of his own Abilities but every work pass the approbation of discreet and judicious persons This was never
which is a marvel seeing I never read them in all my life N. C. How not read them C. It is as I tell you upon my honest word N. C. And yet he is not content to mention it once but repeats it again k P. 122 195. C. And would put a jealousie into you that I have such a fire kindled in me as makes me burn with desire to ofter Sacrifice to another Idol I am a shamed to set down his words they are so lewd Nor can I imagine what should bring such things to his mind which are so far from my thoughts but his own filthy inclinations or what should make him mention some things l Batchelors prettiaess Wives c. See p. 23 122 153. so often and in such a manner as he doth but his love to smutty Discourse He is not content to make mouths at me of whom he hath so little knowledg but in effect at St. Paul himself who commends those that preserved themselves Holy in a single life m P. 153. As if he placed perfection in wedlock or was of that Gentleman's mind who taught the people this lesson in the late times n Some Flashes of Lightaing c. Sermoâ— upon 1 Cor. 11.10 11 12 1648. P. 172. God needs such a vessel as Christ to put himself in Christ needs such a vessel as you to put himself in God would run every way settle no where be bounded in nothing if he did not settle in his Son The Son would rest no where have no content if it were not in thee Men would run every way rest no where if not bounded by a wife N. C. Why do you not let such abominable stuff lie buried in oblivion C. I had rather have been ignorant of it than put to the trouble to detest it But since it is divulg'd and comes in my way I thought it a piece of very fit dirt to stop such a foul mouth as his withal N. C. I wish he had not open'd it in these matters C. Nor would he if he had been indued with a little of that virtue which St. Bernard so much commends in his last Sermon upon the Canticles Modesty I mean which he calls among other things the Praise of Nature the Sign of all Honesty the First fruits of Virtue the Sister of Continence the Preserver of Purity the Keeper of our Fame the Beauty of Life and the special Glory of the Conscience But his whole Book â—s a stranger to this excellent quality and writ in such a manner that they who can like it are in a worse condition in my judgment than those who love to feed upon coals and ashes He is come to such a pitch of boldness that he will undertake to tell you not only what Authors I read but how much I have read in my Books And that for instance I had no more wherewith to charge T.W. than what I produced o Pag. 51. Which is the greater piece of impudence because I have sufficient reason to conclude that he hath not read his Works himself and so cannot tell what absurdities I have observed Nor hath he read W. B. later Works though he commend them for the good and savoury passages that are in them His former p P. 194. indeed he thinks he hath read I say he thinks for he repeats it that he hath read more in them than I pretend to have done A Huge piece of Learning He might have safely left out his I think and spoken more confidently for if he had read but one line it would have been enough to make good his word Because whatever I have read I have pretended Nothing at all in that matter but spoken only of his new Sermons But he will make you an amends for this diffidence for he hath a great secret to tell you with open mouth concerning the Conforming Ministers some of which he saith are known or judged to be arrant Socinians q Pag. 70. And how doth he know it think you Is it by Revelation Verily to use one of his own words for any thing that I can perceive he doth not know it but only suspect it And then how dare he or others judg them to be Socinians Mark I pray his partition They are either known or judged to be such that is they are judged to be so sometimes though they are not known to be so These are men of a very nice and tender Conscience who take upon them to sit in the Judgment Seat and pronounce sentence of Condemnation upon their Neighbours before they understand their Cause or have any assurance that they are guilty of the Crime When such men have Power proportionable to their Malice Lord have mercy upon us If judgment and knowledg be divided in this manner who is there that may not be voted to destruction They will clap their hands and cry as a man goes along thinking no harm A Socinian a Socinian and straightway the Hounds are let loose N. C. Use I beseech you more civil terms C. You have forgot I perceive your own phrase so common in the late times when you incouraged one another to go a Parson hunting But you will remember it when you have power and the people as I was saying will run like so many Dogs to tear the Innocent in pieces For my part I wish he may be questioned by those who have Authority about this matter that he may either make good his suggestion or else be branded for a malicious Scribler N. C. There is nothing of malice I am confident in his words C I crave your pardon if I do not believe you I have cause to think he knows not One. For among all my acquaintance I could never meet with a man that knows or suspects so much as one single Minister to be of that perswasion And one would think that Conformists should be known to one another better than to such triflers as he Therefore I cannot but look on this as a piece of his disingenuity and spight of which I told you I would give an instance Socinian he knows is an odious name and so he would willingly fasten it on some of us if he could the better to stir up the Peoples hatred against all those whom they please to imagine men of that strain And for the very same cause I doubt not he talks of our Idolizing Grotius It is a popular word as was said the last time we met together which he hath not yet forgot Whensoever they would have any thing hated it is but saying that such and such make an Idol of it and immediately the People will abhor both it and them Thus they said we made an Idol of the late King And you may easily know with a little recollection who it was that told a Gentleman when he said Grace and pray'd God would bless the King a little before his Death Your Idol shall not stand long But they dare
will suppose from his words who never guesses aright that I was a Reprover of others in those days when the truth is I was then but a boy newly come from School so they will be apt to imagine I was at least an applauder of that which I now condemn But the most quick-sighted of that lying faction I hope I may have leave to use those words of a very great person a His Highness Prince Rupert in his Declaration 1642. p. 3. will never be able to find the time the place the man or woman when where and before whom I signified the least approbation of so great a crime as I always accounted it Let Philag himself when he hath more knowledg of me be sent to all the places where I have lived to trace my steps and when he returns let him put the worst he can hear of me in Print I shall not blush to read it N. C. You are very confident C. Not that I shall escape all slanders for I have already met with good store and have been admonisht also to expect them if ever I went about to promote any publick good or to remove any old or newly settled evil This every body can teach us it is so common Let such a man saith one of the late times b Fountain of Slander discovered resolve that according to the good he would do so shall his aspersions be Nor let him think when time and his constant actions have worn out one or two or ten aspersions that he shall be therefore free but if he continue to mind their good he shall be sure to find new ones such as he never dreamt of nor could imagine Such an one is this now cast upon me by Philag who snarls at my heels very often and would fain fasten if he could but now barks perfectly in the dark as a worthy person somewhere speaks without the help of Moon-shine to direct him in his snarling He may as well accuse me of Witchcraft as of any thing of that nature or say that I worship the Man in the Moon for it is as true as that I so much as favour'd any thing that any men call Sacriledg N. C. He cryes you mercy if he be misinform'd Ib. p. 82. C. Let him ask mercy of God and repent of such gross hypocrisie as makes him wantonly play with a mans good Name and when he hath abused it think he hath made amends with a word saying I cry you mercy Sir N. C. Have you not spoken concerning others C. Not without good ground and great cause to vindicate our selves from their proud contempt and the odious name of Time-servers and to take from them that unjust reputation which they affect of being more knowing and more godly than all orâ—ers N. C. You might have put amore candid construction upon their silence c Ib. p. 82. about Sacriledg C. He can tell me nothing to alter my opinion but only that it is possible their silence might spring from no other cause but this that they had not the same notions and apprehensions concerning Sacriledg as some have or that they did think that Church-lands would not have been so disposed of as they were c. A very doughty Champion To have such an extraordinary motion to undertake your defence and to be able to perform so little when he comes to the business is a very great shame N. C. Why Is this nothing C. What doth it amount to It is possible there were other causes and it is possible I have hit on the right and more than that it is possible he may think so when I have told him the unlikelihood of his Did they not know how many people had of a long time gaped for the remnant of the Church-Revenues Were they not inform'd by one of their own Authors in Queen Elizabeth's time that too many of their Scholars coveted and craved them with great hunger While they hear us speak saith the Author of the Ecclesiastical Discipline against Bishops and Cathedral Churches it tickles their ears looking for the like prey they had before of the Monasteries Yea they have in their hearts already devoured the Churches Inheritance They care not for Religion so they may get the spoil They could be content to crucifie Christ so they might have his Garments Our Age is full of spoiling Souldiers and most wicked Dionysius's who will rob Christ of his golden Coat as neither fit for him in Winter nor Summer They are cormorants and seek to fill the bottomless Sack of their greedy Appetite They do yawn after a prey and would thereby to their perpetual shame purchase to themselves a Field of Blood d It is quoted in Bishop then only Doctor Bancrofs Sermon at Pauls-Cross 1588. p. 9. who admonished them elsewhere that by their out-cries they might farther impoverish the Church but they should be sure to be little better for it Thus T.C. more sharply inveighed against the wickedness of some who then followed them than I have done against any now He made bold to say the Age was sull of such irreligious men as I think abound now and yet I must be thought wicked ungodly and malicious for such a supposal and he no doubt a zealous reprover of sin But let that pass This so early and open declaration of the evil Spirit that then ruled in the Enemies of Bishops should have taught and admonished all your Ministers one would think in such a tumultuous and audacious Age as ours to take all occasions to warn men against such wickedness For that the chief of them esteemed it so I make no doubt whatsoever this Ignorant Apologist surmises Mr. Rich. Vines I remember very honestly gave the Parliament a touch of it by citing in a Sermon not Printed a place concerning Sacriledg out of Mr. Hildersham on the 51. Psalm But he tells Mr. Baxter in a Letter to him e Which he Printed upon another occasion in his third Disput about Ch. Government and Worship p. 350. that it did not please and adds withal that most are of opinion that while the Church lies so unprovided for the donations are not alienable without Sacriledg And therefore it is most probable the Annotators were of that mind and so should have indeavoured at least to prevent the farther growth of this profaneness by some cautions against it if not told that High Court with the freedom and plainness which they seem to affect what the Lord Bacon hath said viz. That the Parliament of England oweâ— some satisfaction for the many injuries and unjust oppressions formerly done by them to the Church and therefore should be far from going about to increase that debt There was a pious man one Mr. Vdal f Minister at St. Austinsgate that ventured an undoing in this cause being sequestred and more than that put into the First Century of Scandalous Ministers for writing a Book called Noli me tangere In which saith
take him to be either so conscientious or so wise as he would perswade the world be is who boldly changes the words of a Book which he tells you is known in Court City Country and Vniversities y P. 292. Oâ—e would think he is past feeling 〈◊〉 these matters and cares not what he doth if he can but promote the Cause and make the Ignorant believe my Book is Answered N. C. He was willing he tells you to decline the word Persecution C. Was he so He should have declined also the falsifying of Books and the altering other mens words especially in such a case as that which we debated which he should first of all have sincerely represented and then said what he pleased But in stead of this he impudently chops and changes my words more than once all after as he thinks good You say these are his words p. 246. the N.C. do but fansie themselves to be great sufferers which he had said before also p. 231. And if you look further he will tell you that I manifestly affirm they have no cause to complain of any hard things which they suffer at this day p. 250. And in one or two places my words are dwindled into these You can tell them they do but fansie themselves to be under sufferings pag. 248 z And in the Preface pag 31. And yet my words were Since you fansie you are persecuted when you are not c p. 190. 237. So he is contented to report them in one place a P. 237. and no more that I can observe For though he declines the word as much as he can he plainly signifies that he believes the thing telling us upon this occasion of their being Martyrs and of a Martyrology he could write as I before noted But to pass by this fraudulent way of writing which he is often guilty of let you and I debate this business together if you please N. C. With all my heart for it akes when I think of what he saith of their sufferings C. But you must give me leave to note before we enter upon it that the nature of man is very apt to complain and none more than your selves Who I have always observed are a very delicate and nice sort of people that make a lamentable noise if all things go not after your mind nay put the finger in eye and cry Persecution upon very small causes And therefore we must not be too forward to believe all that this man tells us N. C. You make them like little Children that cry before they be hurt C. They partake very much of the quality of little ones in that particular who are so tender that they cannot indure so much as the scratch of a pin They must have all their desires granted and not be restrained in the least of their Liberty otherwise all the Nation shall ring with the doleful noise of Persecution Antichristian Persecution Immediately your people fansie they prophesie in Sackcloth and are in a Sackcloth condition and carried into the Wilderness even those who live in as good houses and wear as good Chamlets fine Cloth and Silks as any body else For which I can find no cause but the high esteem they have of themselves which makes them look upon all the favours which are done them as small and any the least cross as exceeding great What the precious Sons and Daughters of Sion to be thus used Is it not a sad thing that they should be persecuted to the very gates of Sion yea into the very gates of their Trade N. C. I shall not indure this language C. It is your own b W. B. Seas Truths p. 113. and others But if you will not hear it I will let it alone N. C. And all your Stories which you are going to tell C. There was a Book c Army Harmless pag. 2. indeed which told us of many persons who suffered in extremity and others like to do more for their Non-comportment with the Presbyterian way though they judged the same to be manifestly sinful and altogether repugnant to the Word Do you believe this complainer N. C. No no. They called any little thing suffering in extremity C. And why should we not think that Philag is of the same humour now since others N. C. I pray come to the business and tell me no more of these stories C. I 'le omit the most displeasing to you and only tell you as a proof of this complaining humour that there was a Party in the late Usurpers days who talkâ— as lowdly as Phil. can do of the Persecution of the Saints the crucified Cause of Jesus and said that the Rulers Priests and Souldiers had gotten Christ upon the Cross once more through the High Treason of the Judas's of the Times And what was the matter think you Nothing but this a few persons were secured and some were cut short as they tell you in their Liberties d Image of our Reforming Times Praef. p. 45. an 1654. Nay so grievous it was to some to be crossed and contradicted and brought a little lower in the world than they were that they would not only tumble the whole Nation upside down but go cross even to their own publick professions rather than not have their wills For this I remember was the plea of those who turn'd their Masters out of doors after they had called themselves a few days before and seemed to take a pleasure in styling themselves the Faithful Servants the Faithful Army of this Parliament that if it were not done it would be the undoing of some Families And how many think you were they for whom all that noise and bustle and confusion was made Some Officen of the Army tell you that in these words e Humble Representation to the Lieft. Gen. Nov. 1. 1659. pag. 7. We are not ignorant of the grea argument why this Parliament was interrupted What Must nine Families be undone at once No by no means Have a care of such precious Creatures and deal tenderly with them Those mine may be more worth than all the Nation beside at least have a better opinion of themselves and therefore What is there to be considered so much as their concerns N. C. I have heard enough of this enless it were better Now to the purpose C. This is much to the purpose For you see what a stir some men are apt to make if they be in danger to be less than they were before and how much they prefer the satisfaction of a few before the publique tranquillity Such men you may be sure will murmur and repine when they are brought down indeed as thinking they receive a great injury when they are not in place of power and dignity and are used hardly when they do not rule and govern us N. C. But this is nothing to those who have lost all C. But it shews that we must not presently believe mens condition so
alteration in him N. C. Dimness of sight can never be recovered by stripes C. That 's true But yet he that shuts his own eyes or blindfolds himself with his hand may by Correction be made to open the one or to take away the other A sharp Medicine also instilled into the Eye will remove this Pin and Web better than all the fairest speeches and strongest reasons in the world However if Bedlam cannot reduce such a one yet it may restrain him from infecting others N. C. You are very severe methinks I did not think you had been still of so harsh a spirit C. I only repeat your own words that you may see what your reasonings were when you came to settle a Government among us For my part I love clemency so much that I think we may say of it in the words of one of your Writers in those Times as of fair weather it is pity it should do any harm But if is do it is a cruel pity f Mr. John Good win's Quaeries Questioned 1653. pag. 13. He hurts the good who spares the bad Yet I delight in meekness and gentleness and as I would have been glad to have seen more of it practised by them who most plead for it so I would to see no need of any thing else to be used now Nor should the Magistrate though he have so large a power go to the utmost therof but upon extream necessity For his end being the same with our Saviours not to destroy mens lives but to save them I suppose him to be the wisest Magistrate who can most easily attain it and govern the Church and State with the least punishments For severity of Laws is an Exprobration of the Magistrates want of care in not preventing that extremity of offence which doth require them All which considered nothing seems to many wise and moderate men more conducing to your good and the Magistrates honour than a due execution of those Laws you are now under lest by your wanton contempt and bold breach of them you make it necessary they should be changed for more rigorous which God forbid Why do you shake your head N. C. To hear you talk on this fashion C. There are none of you but would say the same were you in Authority You would not leave men at liberty to do as they pleased And though some particular persons suffered that could not conform you would say it is better it should be so than the Publick Order be disturbed and that those small punishments would prevent greater and that they were beholden to you for your strictness since without it they might grow so wild that you should be constrained to severity For you did not think it safe heretofore so much as to connive at those who would not be obedient to the established Government and Discipline That as Mr. Case told the Lords was next door to a Toleration It is a Toleration in Figures though not in words at length g Sermon before the Peers March 25. 1646. Nor are the Independents of a different mind who keep an Uniformity when they have power in their hands as we see in the Churches of New England where they agree in their practices though not in their Principle Some being for that way of Church-Administrations as it is called by the Direction of particular Rules in Scripture which seem to them very clear but others to whom those Scriptures seem to be mis-applied conforming to it upon the more General Rules of Scripture viz. of Charity and Christian Peace Which is according to a Maxime planted in the Nature of things as we are told by one here in a Preface to a Book of a New-England Teacher h Mr. James Noyes of Newbury in N. E. Temple Measured 1647. which do often act contrary to the Rule of their particular Nature for the Conservation of the Universe And were we saith he as well grounded upon it as our Brethren of New-England be we should both the more prefer the Peace and Tranquillity of this Church which is a General good above our own private inerest and the less censure them who upon the same Principle have sometimes taken and will doubtless have the wisdom always to take just Animadversion upon them that cause Divisions and are disturbers of the Churches peace though they may haply plead their Conscience and transform themselves into Angels of Light N. C. Conscience is a tender thing and must be tenderly dealt withal C. So Mrs. Hutchinson said and yet they banished her out of New England for all that N. C. I thought they had had a great regard to Conscience C. The very same which his Majesty hath here who tells you just as the Court told her Your Conscience you may keep to your self but if you shall countenance and incourage those that thus transgress the Law a small fault you think who transgress it your selves you must be called in Question for it and that is not for your Conscience but for your Practice i Proceeding of the Court holden at New-Town 2 Octob. 1637. pag. 34. N. C. What Law do they transgress The Law of God C. That was her Question and this was their Answer which may serve you Yes the Fifth Commandement which commands us to honour Father and Mother which includes all in Authority N. C. There is not one example in Scripture to justifie such punishments as those for difference in judgment C. Still you will run on in your mistake You may hold your own judgment as they told her partakers when they alledged this so as the Publick Peace be not troubled or endangered by it and no body will trouble you For the King doth not challenge power over mens Consciences but when they do such things as discover a corrupt Conscience it is his duty to use his Authority to reform both k Ib. pag. 28. And if they complain of his severity and say he uses them hardly they add a new fault to the former and further indanger the Publick Peace by estranging as much as in them lies the hearts of the people from him N. C. It would be better therefore if such Laws were never made as occasion people all this trouble C. Now you run back again Some Laws we must have so that if these be altered others must come in their room And though you may be better contented with them yet others may as much dislike them as you do these And if their disobedience be not punished it had been as well or better not to have punished your disobedience before If it be then the persons are changed but still there will be sufferers N. C. It is very true And What would you have men do in this case C. What Be as patient as they can For it is an excellent thing as some body I remember speaks when men who cannot be active without sinning as they judg are passive without murmuring Of this Christ and the
Primitive Christians have set us an example and it is glorious in it self comfortable to those in whom this virtue is and the best way to thrive and prosper and attain their end The old N. C. being deprived took this course and neither thought it a just cause for a separation from us nor complained after this Scriblers manner but quietly submitted to the sentence Have you not seen the Protestation made by those who were suspended or deprived in the third of King James N. C. No. C. I 'le tell you then two or three Branches of it We hold say they l protestation of the Kings supremacy c. 160â— â—â—anch 8th that Kings by virtue of their Supremacy have power yea also that they stand bound by the Law of God to make Laws Ecclesiastical such as shall tend to the good ordering of the Churches in their Dominions and that the Churches ought not to be disobedient to any of their Laws c. But in case the King should command things contrary to the Word they declare m Branch 9th that they ought not to resist him therein but only peaceably to forbear obedience and sue unto him for grace and mercy and where that cannot be obtained meekly to submit themselves to the punishment And further n Branch 11th that he may by his Authority inflict as great punishments upon them for the neglect of his Ecclesiastical Laws as upon any other subjects c. N. C. I wish however that the punishments had been less C. Or they more patient Christians N. C. For then we should not have had these sad complaints of sufferings hardships and miseries C. And Persecution N. C. No he will not call it so though he confesses the N. C. in Scotland live in a hotter climate than we do here C. We understand his phrase very well They are intolerably persecuted though you be not N. C. He only says such severity being used against them as would make a mans heart to bleed o P. 244. of his Book C. Yes if Fame may be trusted as he adds which we know hath brought many a lye to him and is as little to be trusted as himself For you may be sure of this that they are better used a great deal than they used others heretofore N. C. Whence shall I have that assurance C. From a little Book newly come forth there and said to be published by Order where in answer to these complaints of Severity I find these words p modest and free Conference between a C. and a N. C. â—â—ant the present distemperâ— in Scotland 1669. p. 11. and more you may read p. 60. I must so far justifie the rigour you have met withal as to shew it is far short of yours The people are required to do nothing but live peaceably and joyn in worship whereas you made them swear to you And the Ministers are not made swear to maintain the present establishment mark this and to root out the contrary as you did they are only required to concurr in Discipline and to promise submission to Episcopacy A great peice of business most grievous and severe Impositions What will they conform unto who cannot away with such small things as these Must such reasonable Laws as these be changed only to humour them If they be not then there is no help for it they must be deprived And if they are so far from submitting to Episcopacy that they set themselves against the Government they may with the greater reason be sharply dealt withal who are so fiery as to oppose that which is so innocent But yet I can hear of no such terrible proceedings against them as this man talks of For the fore-named Book tells us q P. 32. whatsoever noise they make about Persecution it is more on the side of the C. than of the Nonconformists For to an ingenuous spirit it is a far greater trial if he be not above such things to be aspersed and railed at every where and made the hatred of the people than to suffer a little in the world Which suffering also I must tell you though it may conduce in the end much to their good yet it puts their Governours to a new trouble to inflict it after they have been long troubled nay persecuted by their perversness and fierce oppositions For tell me I pray you they are the words of St. Austin r Against Cresconius quoted in this case long ago 〈◊〉 plain Declar. 1590. pag. 68. when a man that is in a Phrensie doth vex the Physician and the Physician binds him whether do both persecute each other or no If that be not a Persecution which is done to his disease then certainly the Physician doth not persecute the phrantick or mad-man but he persecutes the Physician His Application is that the Penal Laws of the Princes were as the Bands of the Physician to bind the phrensie and furious out-rage of the Donatists Who made such a clatter there about their Persecution and grievous sufferings as this Philag and others do among us O said they when any Law came forth against them now your Bishops have inflamed the Rulers to persecute us They have made them our Enemies to deprive us of that liberty which Christ hath left us We ought not to be compelled our wills were made free and you may not offer a force to them And so they run on in long Declamations against the Catholick Church for using them so cruelly for all the world like this bawling Writer of yours who I think in my Conscience would have been more modest if he had not been so gently used N. C. Phy for shame C. I know what I say there is always less murmuring and men are more thankful for the liberty which is allowed them when Laws are strictly and constantly executed But now the Nation is filled as he confesses with clamours and noises of their great sufferings and miseries which he repeats in a most doleful manner I cannot tell how often This he begins withal p. 5 6 7. And again we meet with it p. 79 80. And thrice s P. 149 220 229. more before he comes to a tedious set discourse about it p. 231 c. In which he makes their contempt a part of their suffering a thing which they pour on us far more than we on them and Excommunication also which is commonly for their obstinate contempt of the Court nay the want of those degrees in the University which they may have a mind unto and of Dignities and Offices are thrown in to make up the tale though he pretends that he cares not to mention them whereby we may see how sorely they are hurt who have list and leisure to think of such things And yet he hath not done with it neither but we find him bemoaning their condition again t P. 283. as if like the poor Samaritan they were stript of their rayment wounded and half dead
know very well that many men who are converted to you are so far from being good that they become worse than they were before More haughty and conceited of themselves more unmannerly to their betters disobedient to their Masters and Governours unbridled in their language unpeaceable and troublesome to their neighbours It is an easie matter to say I wrong you but I know what I say and others have said it before me It is an old observation of Mr. R. Bernards c Separatists schism p. 29.30 1608. That as soon as ever men enter into the way of separation immediately they grow peremptory and though never so simple yet presently they see the truth without any study and can partly champer against us and condemn us all for false Christians and false Churches Nay they are so bewitched with that way that they are nothing like themselves in what was good and laudable in them Before humble and tractable then proud and wilfull before they could find the word work and themselves moved by our preaching but afterward they judg the Minister to have lost the power of his Ministry because they themselves are in affection altered blaming the Teacher when the fault is in themselves They can with understanding judge between cause and cause reason and reason but then they lick up all which comes from themselves as Oracles be they never so absurd And have we not all seen how light they all make of this great sin of Separation The N. England Ministers themselves complain That there is scarce any truth or error now a days can be received but it is maintained in a way of Schism directly contrary to the gathering and uniting Spirit of Jesus Christ d Mr. Allen and Mr. Shepherd Defence of the 9 positions p. 27. And what should be the reason think you that men are so ready to follow this evil Spirit that is in the world but that they have no sense of spiritual wickednesses nay look upon Divisions Separations and all the evil consequences of them not only as innocent but holy things While the Devil as Mr. Greenham e Grave Counsels and Godly observations p. 37. well observes Was known only by horns and claws or by the hollow voice he was wonderfully feared but being now revealed to be a more secret Adversary a spiritual Tempter a privy overthrower of Souls no man almost regards him And therefore as some have feared him too superstitiously so now it is come to a more dangerous extremity that he is not feared at all He enters into mens hearts securely and they are not aware of it He rules and domineers there and they rejoyce at it thinking they are full of the Spirit of God O how happy would it be if all would labour to throw this Devil out which possesses too many Pride high conceit of their own knowledge glorying in their gifts crowing over others as carnal or moral men together with all the rest of his company which I have mentioned This would be a better work than to perswade them they are already converted when they are become Proselytes to a party and too many of them as far as we can see by their fruits like those made by the Pharisees who were no less laborious and perhaps successful than your selves N. C. You are mistaken we do not call this Conversion to become N. C. C. You may speak for your self and such as you know very well for too many do They glory in the Conversion of those who have only changed their Vices not their Natures and of prophane or neglectors of Religion are become Schismatical proud censorious and highly presuming of their knowledge which they have got in a moment in one word have exchanged the sins of the flesh for those of the Spirit Tertullians f Pervenimus de calcaria in Carbonarium L. de carne Christi Cap 6. words are an exact description of them if you do but invert the Proverb They go out of the Cole-pit into the Lime-kill where though they become white yet they remain still dirty and defiled And look how much these excell other men in zeal and earnestness in height of fancy and warmth of affection in fluency of speech and notable strains of Devotion in so much the worse condition they are As men in a frenzy saith Irenaeus g L. 1. Cap 13. pag. 54. out of Hippâ—â—rates the more they laugh and appear to be vigorous and strong doing all things like men in health nay somethings above what any sound men can do so much the more dangerous is their disease in like manner the higher these people are in their own thoughts the greater store they have of Religious heat the more vehemently they bend their thoughts and strain their unpurged Souls drawing the Arrow as he speaks beyond the Bow the less wise they are or rather the more mad and furious and the more unlikely ever to return to any sobriety of mind I would not for all the World be guilty of that Envy which this ill-natur'd Adversary would make you believe I am infected withall I rejoyce I thank God not only that men are made truly good whosoever be the instrument of it but that they are made wiser and better than my self Yet I am taught for all that by your own Books to lessen the number of such Converts as this man braggs of For they have informed us for many years of an evil generation that have separated from us in whom as one of them tells us h Fountain of Slander opened p. 25. 1649. you shall see Christ and Belial God and Mammon in one and the same person Christ in show and the other in reality They let themselves loose to lying and dissimulation slandering and backbiting and all kind of circumvention God Religion Reason Virtue are but meer termes and notions with them serving them to no other purpose but to deceive the more effectually And that particular of lying is confirmed by Mr. H. Peters himself who to cry quit with those among you that exclaimed against the Army as guilty of many Crimes said there are some other diseases as much considerable among others which may be of greater influence and the last he mentions is a spirit of lying and false Witness bearing even to the undervaluing of our enjoyments i A word to the Army and two words to the Kingdom 1647. pag. 9. Much more I could relate to this purpose from some of your own mouths which if it should have been writ by any of us I know what you would have said of us N. C. Truly you have said too much to gratifie the common Enemy and so far saith Philag k Preface pag. 10. as a man may gather from your Book you would sooner promote a Cassandrian design viz. of Union betwixt Protestants and Papists than that betwixt C. and N. C. For you instigate Rulers to much severity against N. C. but never against Papists C.
words which will be thought too scornful by many of you now That a set Form of prayer is lawful much need not be said the very newness of the contrary opinion is enough to show the Vanity and falshood of it The truth of it is it was so new that there were few of those old Divines but they opposed it in their constant practice This Dr. now named Dr. Sibbs Mr. Hildersham Mr. Dod Mr. Bradshaw c. alway using one Set Form of Prayer before their Sermons and some of them in their Families For which the last mentioned gave this reason as Mr. Gataker tels us in his Life i Life of Mr. Wil. Bradshaw published by Mr. Clark p. 67. in Fol because he sitation in prayer is more offensive than in other discourse unto profane ones especially whereof in mixed multitudes and meetings some lightly too many usually are And he affirmed this also to have been Mr. Th. Cartwrights practice with whom he sometimes conversed And Mr. Clark I remember confesses that Mr. Sam. Crook who dyed no longer ago than 1649. was the first man who brought conceived prayer into use in those parts where he lived in Somerset-shire k Collect of 〈◊〉 o◠〈◊〉 Diviâ—â—â— p. 38 〈…〉 If you would see more of this you may read Dr. Prestons Book called the Saints daily Exercise l 〈◊〉 6. 1 31. p. â—â— set forth by Dr. Sibbs and Mr. Davenport where you will find this Question largely handled whether we mâ—y â—se set Forms of Prayer and resolved assirmatively For which he gives many reasons N. C. I 'le seek them when I am at leisure C. Only remember this for the present that he saith he knows no obâ—ection of weight against it How do you like this Doctrine now N. C. Is not the Spirit straitned in stinted Prayer And doth not a man find his Spirit bounded and limited when he is tyed to a Form C. That 's the main objection he tells you to which he gives three substantial Answers The first is that those very men who are against this and use this reason do the same thing daily in the Congregation for when another prays that is a Set Form to him that hears it who hath no liberty to run out though his Spirit should be more large but is bound to keep his mind upon it And therefore if that were a sufficient reason that a man might not use a set Form because the Spirit is straitned it would not be lawfull to hear another pray though it were a conceived Prayer because in that case his Spirit is limited Secondly he tells you though the Spirit be limited at that time yet he hath a liberty at other times to pray as freely as he will It is no general ty though he be then bound up And Thirdly he adds that there is no ty and restraint upon the Spirit because there is a ty to words For the largness of the heart stands not so much in the multitude and variety of Expressions as in the extent of the affections which have no ty upon them when we are tyed in words N. C. Too many words will not do well in any other thing Let us therefore make an end of this C. I shall only tell you that if you turn a leaf or two further m Saints daily Exercise p. 84. you will find another case resolved about the gesture of Prayer which he would have to be very reverend especially in publique And that Mr. Hildersham exhorts to kneeling as the fittest gesture And complains of those that neglected it as also of such as would not sit bare at the reading of the holy Scriptures wishing withall that when we come in and go out of the Church we would give some signification of such reverence as now is rather derided than approved By all which you may see without travelling through the rest of the Authors which he mentions that they will not down with your squeamish stomacks and have been thrust out of doors by a number of frivolous writers among you who can better humour the childish fancies and the corrupt appetites of the professors of this Age. This very man is one of them who jeers those old Puritans as they were called as well as us when he compares a man that uses a Form of Prayer to an Horse in a Mill * Page 97. of his Book which goes round and round and cannot easily go out of his way if he do but jog on though he be hood-winkt and blindfolded N. C. But Religion as he sayes is like to suffer greatly by the not reading of those good writers C. That 's spoken only upon supposition that our Ministers have made them to be rejected but if they have been the cause of it themselves he can tell you another story Doubt not of it he can find you Authors enough as good as they if not better and as many as you please twenty or forty or more Say how many you would have for it 's all one to him whether it be twenty or forty n Pag. 55 56 57. one is as soon said as the other and they shall be such Treatises that there are not better extant in the World of those Subjects N. C. Do you think he will write against himself C. That 's a very small matter with one that minds not what he writes In a twelve moneths time you may think it is easie for a man to forget what he hath writ and so no wonder that he who told us in 1668. that some good Scholars were put to such hard shifts as to beg their bread the Laws at that time being too hard for them and too strictly observed to let them get any sufficient employment for a livelihood o Rebuilding of London p. 331. c. should tell us now 1669. that the severe Ordinances signified next to nothing where he was conversant and should ask to what purpose it is to mention them as long as I tell of no Execution done by them p Sober Answ p. 254 255. But he can do a great deal more than this comes to in an hours time or so he can forget what he hath said and say the contrary In the 31. page of his Preface he tells you that he hath endeavoured to restore me with a Spirit of meekness notwithstanding that but two leaves before p. 26. he had excused himself for not making a milder answer flesh and blood being not able to bear some of my expressions In his Book also if you mark it he desires you to believe he is far from being one of those who say as if we were the Jews or Gentils he speaks of in another place For what acquaintance should we perswade our people to joyn with you Or how came we to ow you so much Service q Page 221. And yet he hath not writ many leaves before he tells us in plain termes without excepting himself that the N.