Do you feel that they say true for instance when they tell you that our Saviour turn'd Water into Wine and that he raised Lazarus from the dead N. C. No I know these things otherways C. Then you must know the rest by the same means that you know these viz. by believing Eye-witnesses of these things who you find are persons worthy to be credited N. C. But I feel the Commands of Christ are exceeding good and agreeable to humane Nature which the Apostles have delivered to us C. That is you find it good to live soberly and peaceably to be charitable to others and to take up your own Cross with Contentedness and Patience N. C. Yes C. But may not these things be felt by Heathens as well as you And may not they by Experience commend the practice of these Vertues to us N. C. I think they have done it C. Then this Experience of the goodness of Christ's Commands is no proof of our Creed by which we are distinguished from Heathens No nor will your Experience prove to any man that Christ's Commands are excellent any farther than he believes that you say true when you tell him what trial you have made of the best kind of Life and that you are a person fit to judge of the Difference of things N. C. Methinks I feel that Jesus Christ is in the Heavens and in great Power and Glory there C. Whatsoever you feel in this matter it is the Effect of your belief not the Cause of it I mean you first believe that he is in Glory before you can feel any good hopes in your Soul of immortal Life And you believe his being in Glory upon good Reasons else you do not know but entertain your self with a pleasant Dream both of his Glory and yours And lastly whatever you feel it is no proof of the truth of the thing but only of the truth of your Belief It is to be proved otherwise that Christ reigns gloriously in the Heavens and is able to bring us into his everlasting Kingdom only your being so mightily affected with it proves that indeed you believe it But you had best look you have good Reasons for your Faith For all the Severities of the Religious men among the Turks prove likewise that they believe strongly in Mahomet though I hope if they quote their Experiences never so much you will not be a Disciple to their Prophet and hope he will take you by the hair of the head and pull you up to Heaven N. C. I find that you are able to talk more rationally than I can in these matters But yet I find likewise there is another kind of Spirit in our people than in yours For they delight more in Heavenly Discourse and are alwayes talking of Religion when they are together which argues they are not of so slight a Spirit as others who love to discourse of unprofitable things C. Do you and I talk frothily as your phrase is and spend our time in unprofitable Chat Is this Discourse earthly and not at all pertaining to Religion And deal sincerely with me do not you sometime when you are together pass the time away in speaking against Bishops and Common-Prayer and the Government Do you not know some that are ever complaining of the Times in which we live and saying the former Dayes were better than these And are the Reasons of this murmuring so Heavenly as you suppose Do they not say the Nation was in more Credit and had a better Reputation abroad and they a better Trade at home and such like things N. C. I cannot deny but I have heard some Professors talk thus But there are a great number that you shall scarce ever hear talking of any thing else but Heaven and Jesus Christ and the business of their Souls C. And such people there are in all Parties and Sects in the Christian World who perhaps are never awhit the better for that N. C. How irreligiously you talk C. Not at all For unless they take a true delight in God and in that Heavenly Discourse above all other things and unless they understand what they say and delight also to do God's will in all things I think they had as good be talking of or doing something else N. C. Can they possibly be better imploy'd C. Yes that they may For if they only tumble out a great many words and Phrases which they have learn'd they had better be Studying what the Religion of Jesus Christ is And if they talk of those matters meerly as it is a Duty and be not so heavenly-minded as that whensoever they have leisure it is the greatest joy that can be to be thinking or discoursing of them they will do this after a very bad fashion when some other good thing they might have done better as visited the Sick inquired after the Wants of the Poor or ordered some Parish-business And again unless they be very prudent and do not think they must needs draw the Company wherein they are who are ingag'd perhaps in other necessary Business to hear their discourse I think their room as we say would be better than their company or that it were better that they would hold their peace For if a man take himself to be bound in Conscience to be always speaking of these things as I doubt many do it is the effect of Superstition which makes Religion a great burthen to a man's self and others For whether he and the Company be disposed or no this he thinks is his Business which he often manages very dully and without any Taste thereby rendring Christianity Contemptible and making himself also still more flat and indisposed for all honest imployments All which considered I leave you to judge whether that man had not better have bestow'd his time otherways for then he might at the end of it have been good for something whereas now he is good for nothing at all but mopishly sits bewailing himself and complaining of the deadness of his heart N. C. Ought not a man to be always thinking of Heaven C. No He may and ought sometime to think of other things And he should do it without any Scruple not fearing that he is ill imploy'd when he doth not break God's Commands N. C. He may be meanly imploy'd C. That is he is but a Man and not yet come to the degree of an Angel N. C. But when others are recreating themselves as you call it ours are talking of Heaven C. If it be their choice and if they do not neglect any necessary Business nor censure others that do not as they do I have nothing to say against them But as I told you there are so many such like people in all Religions that you must not imagine this is a thing peculiar to yours And if they think they offend God if they do otherwise and if they condemn those that now and then innocently recreate themselves and sigh over them as
IMPRIMATUR Nov. 7 1668. Tho. Tomkyns Reverendissimo in Christo Patri ac Domino Dom. Gilb. Arch. Cantuar à Sacr. Dom. A Friendly Debate Betwixt two Neighbours The one A CONFORMIST The other A NON-CONFORMIST About several weighty matters Published for the benefit of this City by a Lover of it and of pure Religion Prov. 15.32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul but he that heareth reproof getteth under standing To the Reader Reader DO not throw away this little Book as soon as ever thou meetest with something that offends thee but sit down rather and consider upon what account thou art offended If it be onely because the Author contradicts thy Opinions and perhaps accuses them of folly thou hast cause to turn thy displeasure from him upon thy self for presuming so much of thy own infallibility which if thou wilt not pretend unto then read on further and consider whether he contradicts thee with reason or without and howsoever it prove thou wilt not repent thee of thy pains For if he reprove thy Opinions without reason thou wilt be more confirmed in them if with reason thou maist exchange them for better It is possible indeed that some things may seem to be expressed too tartly and severely and others too lightly and merrily but let not that put thee out of humour neither nor make the reason which is offered less considerable For the Author I can assure thee hath no gall in him nor was in any passion when he write these things but intended onely as naturally as he could on a sudden to express such Discourse as Neighbours are wont to have in their private conversation in which if there be nothing that is smart or pleasant they can scarce keep one another from sleeping He is very well aware under what great prejudices we all labour and considers how hard it is to dispossess an Opinion though false nay ridiculous which a man hath suck'd in with his mothers milk and which hath been impressed on him by education confirmed by custom much encouraged by the consent and practice of those with whom he daily converses and hath perhaps his complexion and natural temper to befriend it and incline him to it Vpon such considerations as these he cannot be angry with those against whom he writes but rather pities them and is sorry they consider not such things themselves and so repress that heat and passion wherewith they advance their own private late inventions against publick Decrees and ancient Constitutions One sort of men he confesses are apt a little to move his indignation who pretend to the greatest niceness of conscience and have handled the matter so as to b◠thought the most religious of all others and yet make no scruple to do those things continually which are utterly contrary to good conscience So I believe an understanding Heathen or Turk would resolve were he made judge in the case and had first their Principles and then their Practices laid before him Such the Author thinks deserve to be rebuked and if there be any thing spoken with sharpness in the ensuing Discourse it is when he hath to do with them Yet in that case he hath used due moderation not studying to vex men but onely to awaken and convince them For he is very sensible that when we go about to displace any Opinion and introduce another in its room we usually lose our labour if we either fail to propound our mind dexterously or use not such meekness as may shew we have a good will to those from whom we differ Where these are wanting instead of inviting men to receive a Truth we find they are commonly further alienated from it Now he hath some confidence he is not much defective in the first having taken care to express his mind clearly and in plain words and contrived his Discourse into the form of a Dialogue to make it more easily apprehended As for the Later he cannot but think that he hath done his duty and testified his kindness every where even to those against whom thou mayest think him most severe But if thou judgest otherwise then he earnestly beseeches thee to overlook it and pass it by as an inconsiderate and hasty expression and to weigh rather what Truth is here presented to thee than in what manner it is delivered In short If it had not been to fill up some vacant pages he had made almost as short a Preface as those words of the Son of Sirach according to which he expects the success of his labour Ecclus. 21.15 If a skilful man hear a wise word he will commend it and add unto it but as soon as one of no understanding heareth it it displeaseth him and he casteth it behind his back Examine all things and judge righteous judgment Octob. 20. 1668. A Table of the principal matters contained in this Discourse THe occasion of it pag. 1. All are not Christ's Ministers who pretend to it 2 3. Of powerful Preaching 4 5 15. Of spiritual Illumination 6 c. The great proof of Christian Religion is the Spirit 9 10. Of Spiritual and Logal Preaching 11 c. Of the necessity of Good works to our justification 13 14. Who are the most Soul searching Preachers 16 17 c. Vpon this occasion Mr. Watson's late Book of Repentance is a little examined 20 21 c. Mr. Bridges his Ten Sermons considered especially that about the Difference between New Testament spirit and Old Test spirit 25 26 c. By what means this whole Nation came to be over-run with folly 34 Mr. Bridges one of them that helps to continue and increase it 35 unto 40. Of Spiritual Preachers 40. c. Of applying Promises 43 44 c. Of Experimental Preachers 47 c. Foolish Application of Scripture 49 51. A Comparison between the discreet Conformists and the mon-conformists 54. Of the Seal that some pretend God hath given to their Ministry 55. Who are the most guilty of being Time-servers 57 c. The Annotations commonly ascribed to the Assembly men say nothing of Sacrilege 59 c. Several other instances of Men-pleasing 64. Of forsaking Principles 66 c. None more guilty then they that accuse others of it 68 unto 79. Of the calling of the present Ministers of our Church 79. Of praying by the Spirit 89 to 92. Pretence to it hath brought Religion into contempt 87 c. Concerning a Form of Prayer 93 c. Of the Common Prayer 97 c. That some things may be done concerning the Worship of God which he hath not expresly commanded 101 c. That the enjoyning things indifferent makes them not unlawful 104. All do not think our Forms of Prayer and other Orders unlawful who speak against them or suffer others to do so 110. Of Will worship 113. None more Superstitious then they who seem most afraid of it 117 c. The reason men are no more affected with a good Form of Prayer 120
not know them perhaps you would admire them above most of your own N. C. Then I should conclude they had the Gift of Prayer but suppress it C. So they have but it is both in you and us onely a Natural gift or acquir'd by Exercise and Practise and Imitation N. C. Now you speak prophanely C. I speak the sense of the soberest of your own Party as I verily believe who would say the same if they durst but deal plainly with you And as simple as I am I dare undertake to justifie the truth of what I say against any of them if they have the face to contradict it N. C. I see you leave the Spirit of God nothing to do in our Prayers C. Would you would see how you forget your self Did I not tell you what the Spirit of Prayer was how that God bestows it upon us when he gives us a sense of himself and of our needs and stirs up in us holy desires and passionate longings after his Righteousness which we should express in such words as are becoming that Majesty with whom we have to do And this is the reason that we take care to chuse our words and not leave them to extemporary invention especially in the publick Service of God N. C. Do you think they will ever want Words whose hearts are full of Desires or can great Affections ever fail to furnish us with plenty of Language C. Yes that they may For all experience tells us that very great and high Affections are too big for Words and make a man at a stand for want of Expressions which no man sure will think a seemly thing in a publick Congregation And the passions of Admiration and Reverence of God restrain a mans forwardness of speaking to him and make him like a few words best which he is not then in a fit case to invent Aâ— for lesser Affections and superficial Heats I grant they seldom let a man want words if he have tolerable Parts and make him speak more readily than he would do at another time yet they are not able ever to furnish him with those that are fit proper and decent Which methinks should make you not quarrel with a sober form of words at least in our publick Devotions N. C. Would you could perswade me that a Form of words is lawful to be used it would go a great way to perswade me to come to your Church C. Strange that you should be so inapprehensive It is so lawful to use a Form of words that I have shewn you it is in a sort necessary that is we can have no security that the Service of God will always be performed well without one N.C. I confess I do not yet apprehend you C. Observe then I say the best of men though their hearts be full of good desires may from some cause or other want such words as are fit and proper to express their meaning In this case they must hack in an unseemly manner or make a stop or use such words as are too rude and slovenly or speak broken and imperfect language or at the best such as is too hard and obscure and unintelligible by the Vulgar None of which things are to be permitted in the publick Worship which ought to be performed with the greatest solemnity and gravity And therefore to prevent that Undecency and secure the Service of God from all that is unhandsome you must consent to a prescribed Form of words wherein men shall address their humble and hearty Desires to him For though some men at some times may pray well enough yet other men and the same men at other times may be very confused and full of Tautologies and it 's well if they endeavour not to supply these defects with rude Clamours brutish Noises and a deal of the Holy Scriptures wofully misapplied Beside how can you persuade any strangers to be of our Church or to hold any Communion with us if they do not know how we worship God And how should they know that unless you can produce something which by a general consent is own'd for his Service This no doubt is one reason why all Churches in the world have had their publick Forms of Prayer that they may let every body know how God is served by them and why the best men in Reformed Churches have wished those happy days might come of amity and friendship that they might by a Common Counsel and Consent form a certain Liturgy which might be as a Symbol and Bond of Concord among them all And truly I cannot advise how your Ministers can justifie themselves in separating now from all the Reformed Churches as well as ours with whom they covenanted to maintain an Uniformity not onely in Doctrine and Discipline but Worship also To me they seem to live in an open breach of one branch of that Covenant of which they are so tender For they do not endeavour in their place and calling to reform according to the example of those Churches N. C. What should they reform now they have no power C. Themselves and their Congregations which they take the boldness to gather who ought to serve God according to the Covenant after the example of the best Reformed Churches all of which have an Order and Form of Prayer and never imagin'd that those written Forms did bind up and stint the Spirit This is a peculiar phansie of your own who have no Form at all in any of your Conventicles or Meetings though it is in the power of your Ministers to have one as well as to hold such Meetings and though they be bound by their League and Covenant to do their endeavor to imitate those that have Nay I much question whether they use the Lord's Prayer They that do I believe have the least company such is the prejudice which they contrary to their Covenant have sowen in peoples minds against Forms of Prayer even that of the Lord's Which thing considered it makes me astonish'd at your impudence in pretending such niceness of Conscience and fear to break your Covenant when you break it every time you meet together without some Form of Divine Service N. C. They onely covenanted to reform this Church of England according to the example of the best Reformed Churches which they cannot do C. Onely do you say Is that a less thing then to reform a particular Congregation Methinks they should think themselves obliged to do what they can when they cannot do what they would and to do that in a part which they cannot do in the whole that is bring in some Form of Prayer into your Churches for so no doubt you esteem them N. C. I do not think they can if they would C. Why N.C. Because most of us think Forms unlawfull C. That 's their fault who either taught you to believe so heretofore or do not instruct you now to believe otherwise Though it were a very casie thing for them to do
by rightly representing them to the World They ought not to betray the Church wherein they live by a base and unworthy Silence Even the meanest Child of us ought to speak when you are about to kill our Mother Your long Nails wherewith you now scratch her Face must be shewn the people who see them not while they behold your hands lifted up to Heaven But besides these two there is a third sort between both who are dissatisfied only with a few things allow our Ministers to be good men and wish for Peace but yet for private respects hold fair correspondence with the Furies now named keep up the Separation hold Conventicles suffer the people without reproof to be fierce and violent against us connive at a great many of their false and absurd Opinions let them alone in their rude and insolent behaviour take not sufficient care to instruct them in the Truth to bring them to a modest and peaceable temper In short to qualifie them for Compliance with us Do not smile at the word for I can demonstrate it might soon be brought about if they pleased N. C. How I Pray Can you do more than all the men in the Kingdom C. Let them perswade their people but to be of their mind and the business is done N. C. Do you think they do not C. No I warrant you If they did the people would conform though they cannot For that which keeps this sort of Ministers from Conforming is not any thing to which the people are bound but something particularly required of them N. C. You have revealed a Secret to me C. It is easy for any body to find out that hath a mind to it There being nothing plainer than this that they would have read those prayers which I would have you hear if something else had not been in the way which you are not concerned in and that is renouncing the Covenant Let them then but perswade you to do all that they can do themselves and in order to that give you Reasons why it should be done and then I may hope to see you and I go to the same Church together And for them that do not stand upon the Covenant for there are some such they haâ—… the greater reason to exhort you to come nay to come themselves and bring you along with them But lest they should not do their duty give me leave to speak to you in those very words which they have writ to others and if you think they have now any weight in them as I believe you once thought they had we shall not be long separated N. C. What have they writ C. In a Book call'd A Vindication of the Presbyterial Government c. You will find a speech of your Ministers and Elders in the Province of London to those that had left their Communion and stood in divided Congregations from them Which if it had any force then in your opinion ought to prevail with you now to come and joyn your self again to us whom you have forsaken I will cite you some Passages of it in their own words And let me begin with those which you find pag. 130. in a distinct Character as the strength I suppose of what they had to say If we be a Church of Christ and Christ hold Communion with us why do you separate from us If we be the Body of Christ do not they that separate from the Body separate from the Head also We are loath to speak any thing that may offend you yet we intreat you to consider that if the Apostle call those Divisions of the Church of Corinth wherein Christians did 〈◊〉 separate into divers formed Congregations of several Communion in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper Schisms 1 Cor. 1.10 may not your Secession from us and professing you cannot joyn with us as Members and setting up Congregations of another Communion be more properly called Schism Thus they plead for Unity and Uniformity in those dayes 1649. And we say the very same now Be just I beseech you and either pronounce that they had no reason on their side when they wrote those words or that we have reason too who use the same to you Hear also what they say a little after and think one of us speaks it to you You gather Churches out of our Churches and you set up Churches in an opposite way to our Churches and all this you do voluntarily and unwarrantably not having any sufficient cause for it For you acknowledge us to be the true Churches of Jesus Christ and Churches with which Christ holds Communion This I dare say is the Judgment of every true Fresbyterian that the Church of England is a true Member of Christ's Body and that Christ holds Communion with her and hath not cut her off because of any Ceremonies she uses from him the Head of the Church If so consider I beseech you as they intreat their Brethren of the Separation How dare you refuse to hold Communion with those whom Christ Jesus holds Communion withall How can you with a safe Conscience thus separate your selves from those who are not separated from Christ Is it nothing to make a Schism in his Body Do you not rend your selves from him when you thus rend your selves from it Think seriously on it before you sleep that you may at least in purpose and resolution presently unite your self to us from whom you have departed N. C. But I am told that every Separation is not a Schism C. To this they answer in that Book and pray mind it The godly Learned say that every unjust and rash Separation from a true Church that is when there is no just or at least no sufficient cause of the Separation is a Schism And that there is a negative and a positive Schism The former is when men do peaceably and quietly draw from Communion with a Church not making a head against that Church from which they are departed The other is when persons so withdrawing do consociate and withdraw themselves into a distinct and opposite Body setting up a Church against a Church which let me tell you by the way is your Case my good Neighbour which Camero calls a Schism by way of eminency and farther tells us there are four Causes that make a separation from a Church lawful First when they that separate are grievously and intolerably persecuted Secondly when the Church they separate from is Heretical Thirdly when it is Idolatrous Fourthly when it is the Seat of Antichrist And where none of these four are found there the Separation is insufficient and Schism Now we are fully assured that none of these four Causes can be justly charged upon our Congregations therefore you must not be displeased with us but with your selves if we blame you as guilty of positive Schism What say you now my Neighbour Was this good Doctrine then or no If it was it is so still and I beseech you make good
use of it N. C. Some think it is a sufficient cause to separate in that there are such sinful mixtures tolerated among you and that your Congregations are miscellaneous Companies of all Gatherings and all sorts are admitted even to Sacramental Communion C. That 's the very Objection which your Ministers and Elders saw framed against them by the Separatists And what they answer to them we return to you First That this Charge is not true the Rule of the Church of England being as full and strict for Church-Members that shall come to Communion as that of the Assembly there cited pag. 133. which is this That they must be visible Sainst such as being of age do profess Faith in Christ and obedience to Christ according to the Rules of Faith aud Life taught by Christ and his appostles Secondly Suppose there were some sinful Mixtures say they at our Sacraments yet we conceive this is not a sufficient ground of a Negative much less of a Positive Separation The Learned Author forementioned tells us that Corruption in Manners crept into a Church is not a sufficient cause of Separation from it This he proves from Math. 23.2 3. and he adds also this Reason for it Because in what Church soever there is Purity of Doctrine there God hath his Church though overwhelm'd with Scandals And therefore whosoever separates from such an Assembly separates from the place where God hath his Church which is rash and unwarrantable The Church of Corinth had such a profane Mixture at their Sacrament as we believe few if any of our Congregations can be charged withal and yet the Apostle doth not perswade the Godly party to separate much less to gather a Church out of a Church N. C. What do you tell me of the Doctrine of a Forreign Divine C. They have made it theirs by approving what he says in their Book And besides they tell you there were many Godly and Learned Non-conformists of the last Age that were perswaded in their Conscience they could not hold Communion with the Church of England in receiving the Sacrament kneeling without Sin yet did they not separate from her Indeed in that particular act they withdrew but yet so as that they held Communion with her in the rest being far from a Negative much more from a Positive Separation from her Nay some of them mind the words even then when our Churches were full of sinful Mixtures with great Zeal and Learning defended them so far as to write against those that did separate from them who these Good and Learned men were they tell you in the Margin Mr. Cartwright Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham Mr. Bradshaw Mr. Ball. N. C. Then we shall communicate with men in their sinâ— and we must not be led to that by the greatest Examples C. To prevent that they will advise you that if any Brother offend you you are not to separate from him for this is not the way to gain but to destroy his Soul but to tell him of it privately and in an orderly way to bring it to the Church And when you have done your Duty you have freed your Soul and may safely and comfortably communicate in that Church without Sin N. C. I perceive you are read in our Writers And trely you have now told me so much from them that I shall not have so hard an opinion of you as I had before And I hope this will preserve me from being guilty of the sin of Schism because the Nature of that consists in an open breach of Christian Love C. This will not serve your turn but you must come and joyn in Communion with us again For they tell you that as he who denies a Fundamental Article of the Faith is guilty of Heresie though he add not Obstinacy thereto to make him an Heretick So he that doth unwarrantably separate from the true Church is truly guilty of Schism though he add not Uncharitableness thereunto to denominate him a compleat Schismatick You may read the words if you will pag. 137. And afterward they tell you that to make a Rupture in the Body of Christ and to divide Church from Church and to set up Church against Church and to gather Churches out of true Churches and because we differ in some things therefore to hold Church-Communion in nothing this we think hath no warrant out of the word of God and will introduce all manner of confusion in Churches and Families and not onely disturb but in a little time destroy the power of Godliness Purity of Religion Peace of Christians and set open a wide Gap to bring in Atheism Popery Heresie and all manner of wickedness Thus they And how fast all this is a doing by your means who now will have no Communion with us in any thing because we differ in some things is apparent to all the world For the love of God and of the Church nay of your own Families consider of it in time and repent that so they may not be brought to utter Confusion but the Gap may be stopt which you have opened too wide already to Atheism Irreligion and all the rest of the Wickedness which comes powring in it self upon us Do not continue that Separation any longer which you have rashly begun lest you be found guilty of that very thing your selves which you condemned so much in others and profess is by all good men to be abhorred Read what I have now said over and over again and seriously lay it to heart lest your own Books be opened at the day of Judgement and Sentence be pronounced against you out of them Nay desire your Ministers to read it and to expound the reason to you why they should ssparate now more than Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham Mr. Ball and such like did heretofore Intreat them to let you know how they excuse thewselves from the guilt not only of withdrawing themselves from our Communion which they call Negative Schism but also of making an head against us and drawing themselves into a distinct and opposite Body and setting up a Church against a Church which they call Positive and Schism by way of Eminency Ask them which of the four Causes of Separation they alledge to make their Departures from us necessary What we have done that should make it unlawful for them to communicate with us or rather How we have separated our selves from Jesus Christ and made him disown us If they be not able to give you very good satisfaction in this and in all the rest I hope you see what you are to do according to their own Advice and Counsel N. C. I suppose they will say that they are persecuted which will justifie their separation C. I cannot imagine what they should pretend unless it be this But bid them shew you what hath befalen them that should deserve that name And likewise shew that the Persecution is grievous nay intolerable for else they have told you it will not warrant