about the premisses I haue not thought amisse to resent in part by this postscript what occurreth vnto me in this behalfe And first of all is the wonderfull prouidence of almighty God in conseruation and continuation of the ould ancient Catholike Apostolike vniuersall faith left at the assension of our Sauiour vnto his followers and visible Church that then was and spread by them miraculously in very short space ouer all the world and continued euer since by tradition and succession of one age to another vntill our tyme vnder the protection and mighty powerable defence of the same Lord and Sauiour and vnder the gouernement of his only espouse the said Catholike Church Against which Church discent of faith therin though many new fantasyes and deuises of particular men which holy scriptures call heresies haue spronge vp in euery age with fresh and glisteringe titles of pure ghospell of new reueyled truth of godly reformation and other like pretenses and that God for more triall and exercise of his said Church for the speedier redresse perhaps of some abuses and corrupt manners crept into some part therof hath permitted the said new inuentions to preuayle grow and ruffle for a tyme as by experiēce of all ages we haue seene yet euer in the end he bringeth the same to confusion and shame accordinge to those words of the Psalme Percussit inimicos suos in posteriora opprobrium sempiternum dedit eis He striketh his enemyes in the hinder parts that is towards the end of their ruffle and confoundeth them with euerlasting shame Which prophesy of the Psalmist is principally to be vnderstood of hereticall enemyes as Tertullian Epiphanius other anciēt Fathers wryting against them do interprete and the experience of like end in all heresies past doth make yt playne And this shame and confusion of heresies heretiks which Gods prouidence doth heere fortell and in tyme also bringeth to passe so manifestly as the whole world may be wittnesse therof consisteth principally in foure points as holy Fathers do note First that euery new sect diuideth it selfe quickly into many others sects and heresies which S. Augustine sheweth largely of the Arrians and Donatists and Staphilus Lyndanus and other wryters of our time do shew the same of Luthers sect diuided into so many sects branches in so few yeares as all the world seeth And Stanislaus Rescius a learned man of Polonia◠in his late booke of the Atheisine of haeretiks sheweth out of the wrytings of protestants themselues that in the yeare 1596. when he wrote his booke which was but 4. yeares past that there were now extant in the world 270. different sects all risen out of Luthers from the yeare 1517. wherin Luther began All which he declareth at length the reason of this so great multiplication is giuen by Tertullian in his booke Of prescription against heretikes aboue 1400. yeares past sayinge That for so much as euery scholler of a sectary knoweth that his maister inuented his opinions of his owne head he will inuent also somethinge himselfe therby to shew that his witt is not inferiour to that of his Maisters And heerby they come to such confusion in the end that one destroyeth the other Wherof Luther himselfe is a good witnesse when he wryteth these words Truly God doth not fight by any other meanes with heretiks then by permittinge among them a certayne seditious spiritt of dissention by which their ouerthrow also and perdition doeth ensue So he who is a wittnesse in this cause without exception as yow know The second reproach followinge sectaryes is Contradiction to themselues in their owne wrytings and sayings and shamfull inconstancy in their doctrine The reason wherof is for that the said doctrine consystinge only in the inuention iudgment and memorye of the sectarye himselfe that inuented yt or chose to follow yt though inuented by another for whatsoeuer they alleage of scripture or other antiquity must depend of their owne new inuented interpretation of necessity it must follow that as their talents and witts discourse or memory do alter change or faile in tyme so must the doctrine also therof dependinge be altered And so eyther forgetting what they said in one time or place or matter or hauing altered their iudgment or opiniō vpon some further reason which then they saw not they must needs come to say cōtrary to that they did before In which kind of contradiction some thousands haue byn noted by learned men in Luther himselfe no maruayle seeing he was the first of that sect that inuented new opinion◠dayly And the same is obserued in Caluyns wrytings by VVestphalus Hesshusius and other Lutheran Protestants that wrote against him The third confusion that followeth commonly vpon heresie is coldnes doubtfulnesse in Religion and at length also plaine atheisme and contempt and thervpon dissolution of life neglect of conscience and other sutable effects which therfore among heretiks principally do ensue For that heresie callinge into question and shaking the very pillars and strongest meanes wherby men remayned assured before of their faith to witt the number quality and right vnderstandinge of holy scriptures tradition of the Church from whome we receaued them the verity of Ecclesiasticall storyes Christian miracles authority of generall Councells creditt of ancient Fathers and the like and breakinge downe besides the hedges and walles that were wont to be bulwarks to good life as Confession Restitution Satisfaction fastinge vowinge and other helpes of that quality this I say being once done which is the proper worke of heresy a man runneth naturally into doubt contempt of all and consequently leesing by little and little both feare and shame geueth himselfe ouer easily to all licentious liberty and sensuality of life which the Apostle calleth Desperation And thus much of the cause of this third reproach For as for the effect yt selfe to witt that these fruits haue followed in the world since heresies came in much more then euer before I could alleage both Luther himselfe and Erasmus Roterodauius and other authors of most creditt with Protestants testifyinge of their dayes and as for England yt selfe the present knowledge experience of thousands will beare me witnesse Wherfore I meane to prosecute no further these first 3. reproaches followinge heresies and heretiks to witt◠diuision among themselues contradiction to themselues and dissolution of life or propension to Atheisme though for the Readers fuller instruction therin yf he vnderstand the Latin tongue I must needs giue him notice of two famous bookes wrytten of late of that argument by two excellent learned men of our tyme taken out of the works themselues of all the Sectaryes of this age The one is of our contreyman Maister VVilliam Reynolds once fellow of new-colledg in Oxford a Protestant Preacher intituled Caluino◠turcismus that is of
A RELATION OF THE TRIALL Made before the King of France vpon the yeare 1600. betvveene the Bishop of Eureux and the L. Plessis Mornay ABOVT Certayne pointes of corrupting and falsifying authors wherof the said Plessis was openly conuicted Newly reuewed and sett forth againe with a defence therof against the impugnations both of the L. Plessis in France of O. E. in England By N. D. Tertullian lib. de praescript aduers. haereses Vinci possunt persuaderi non possunt Heretikes may be vanquished yet not persuaded Imprinted vvith licence Anno M. DC IIII. THE GENERALL CONTENTS of this booke IN THE RELATION 1. The preface and aduertisment to the Reader conteyning the occasion and summe of all Chap. 1. 2. The first Chalenge made by the L. Plessis to the B. of Eureux for iustifying of his bookes with the Bishopps acceptance Chap. 2. 3. 3. The reply of the L. Plessis with the agreement of the triall Chap. 4. 4. Diuers letters both of the King others about the successe issue of the triall Chap. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 5. Certayne obseruations of the Relator vpon the former relation togeather with a petition that the like triall might be made in England Chap. 11. IN THE DEFENCE 1. The preface shewinge the authority of the Acts Gests sett forth of this conference in French since the first edition of this relation 2. VVhat is conteyned more in these Acts. then was sett downe in my former relation Chap. 1. 3. The examen of nine places chosen by the L. Plessis for his Iustification in all which he was proued to haue falsified Chap. 2. 4. How the conference was broken vp what ensued afterward of a defence sett forth by the L. Plessis after his retyring from the combatt without a name more dishonorable then the combat it selfe Chap. 3. An examen of that defence in French as also of the answere of O. E. in English Chap. 4. and 5. The Conclusion with certayne considerations vpon the whole Chap. 6. TO THE READER Concerninge the causes of the nevv Edition of this Relation vvith a defence therof against diuers Impugners THREE or foure causes good reader haue induced me to renew this Relation and to sett yt forth againe after three years space that it was first wrytten and printed which was in the yeare of Iubiley 1600. The first reason is for that hauing to performe afterward in this third part of the Treatise of three Conuersions of England diuers points heere promised concerninge the vnfolding of sundry falsifications vsed as well by Iohn Fox as by some other English wryters of our time I thought good to lay downe the ground of my obligation and promise made in this relation to the end yt may be seene whether I do satisfie the same or no. Secondly wheras my former narration was very breefe founded only vpo certaine letters receaued from Paris at that time now I hauing pervsed the whole acts gests of that coferēce betweene the B. of Eureux Plessis Morney authentically published by authority by the approbatio of the deputies themselues that were iudges in the cause I haue come to know many particulars which then I knew not consequently I am desirous that the reader should be partaker therof in like manner for that they may import him not a little being of the subiect they are My third reason was for that there hath come to my hands since the forsaid printinge of this Relation two aduersary wrytings published against the same or at least wise against some principall points therof the one in French wrytten as is thought by the L. Plessis himselfe or by some other at his directio after the flight from the combat the other in English by O. E. otherwise interpreted Mathevv Sutcliffe who hath taken vpon him to be his procter and aduocate both vvhich wrytings I thought good in this place breefely to looke ouer by occasion of printing againe this Relation to lett the reader see what truth or substance there is in them but yet with such moderation of speach as we may imitate therin so neere as may be the courteous proceeding vsed by the aduersary partyes in this Triall in France as a little after you shall heere in deed is conuenient to the subiect handled which is Religion and to the persons that treate the same And albeit accordinge to the information which men giue heere of the nature condition of O. E. little hope is conceaued of any good correspondence from him in this point as not so powerable ouer his owne passions as to performe it yet will I hope the contrary for this tyme presuminge that his so exorbitant excesse in former wrytings proceeding of the confidence of a visard wherby he thought perhaps to passe vnknowen but now the maske being taken away and euery child being able to read and interprett vvhat the vvords O. E. do signifie to witt a person that professeth Ecclesiasticall life dignity I shall expect somwhat from him agreeable to that profession vvherin I promise againe all due correspondence on my behalfe to the end that matters of Religion may be handled in the stile they ought to be But if I be deceaued and that he vvill needs follow his ould veigne still I am like inough to leaue him in that kind and giue him ouer to others that vvill pay him perhaps his dew according to that of the ghospell tradatur tortoribus quousque persouerit vltimum quadrantem for there vvant neyther men nor matter to performe yt And so much of this For these reasons then and some other I haue byn moued to sett forth this Relation againe togeather with a defence therof encreased as yow vvill see and confirmed out of the authenticall acts sett forth by publike authority I do thinke the reading pervsing heerof vvill turne thee good Reader to singular commodity if it be done vvith indifferency and attention To Gods euerlasting glory be all referred vvhole euer preserue thee This first of December 1603. THE OCCASION ARGVMENT AND SVBSTANCE of the ensuinge triall CHAP. 1. NOtwithstanding gentle reader I may iustly presume that the report of the late combat and conference had in France betweene two noble and famous learned men concerning a triall of fidelity and falshood in alleaginge authorityes for controuersies in Religion hath come into England before this day being a matter of so notorious memory done in the presence of so great a King and of so many Princes and so neare to our countrey and vpon so markable preambles and premisses as heere are declared yet was I moued by diuers reasons and considerations to lay the same togeather in these few sheets of paper and to sende them vnto thee to reade and behold and as the importance of the thing it selfe requireth to be considered with some attention and leasure For first I weighed with my selfe that albeit the chalenges which heerafter do
follow be extant in the French tongue and consequently like also to be in England before this day yet for that euery man vnderstandeth not that language nor is it so probable that many men will take the paynes to translate diuulge the same to such as may haue neede or desire to reade it I iudged the labour not vnprofitable to performe the same from hence But besides there is another reason of more moment and more peculiar to this place to witt that albeit the former printed chalenges might come to Englishmens hands by other meanes yet the combat it selfe with the true issue therof togeather with the manner of the triall and particulars occurred therin which haue byn wrytten hither by most authenticall partyes as vnto the place where accompt of such affayres concerninge Religion is wont to be giuen could not or would not perhapps so fully and sincerely be related in England as the truth of the whole action requireth the reason wherof each man will easily coÌ„sider These then being the causes that moued me to take this little paine founded as yow see in the zeale of truth and fidelity I haue thought good to deliuer faithfully vnto you such letters as haue come to my hands about this affayre though not all For that diuers letters wrytten out of France by diuers other partyes reportinge the selfe same thing I thought not needful for me to print nor to multiply relations without necessity but to content my selfe only for breuityes sake with the letter of the K. Maiestie himselfe and with one other of the Bishop that was an actor in the cause wrytten to the Kings Embassadour in this place and to some other Cardinalls besides by them to be exhibited vnto his Holynes to whome the Bishopp well knew that the selfe same thing would be wrytten by others also lesâ—e interessed in the matter then himselfe and more then this that his said letters and reporte would be returned to France againe where all aduaÌ„tage would be taken against him by the aduersary yf in any one point he should exceed the bare truth in his narration which consideration may assure vs that he would haue great care to relate all points both truly and modestly as in his letter that ensueth may be seene that he doth and the same may be gathered also plainely by the K. letter it selfe to the Duke of Espernon which after we shall relate But yet besides these two letters there was another wrytten two dayes after the said Bishops letter by the Popes Nuntio in Paris vnto Cardinall Aldobrandino and by him to be deliuered to his holynes wherin is related verified though in very few words the very same narration which the Bishop wryteth as by the extract therof heerafter sett downe appeareth And this now were sufficient for a preface only to this matter were yt not that I haue thought expedient also to touch breifely two other points First what these two persons are which had the combat and then the briefe summe of that which passed betwene them therein For first the L. Plessis Morney his name and person is well knowne in England for that aboue 20. yeares past I saw my selfe a booke of his intituled Of the Church and notes therof translated into English and much esteemed by protestants of that time for that he wryteth more cunningly and couertly and is more plausible in shew both of scriptures Fathers then commonly other wryters of his Religion then were And for that he is a noble man borne and of the laity and not vnlearned in diuers languages and in great creditt for many yeares with this King of France whose Embassadour he was in England whilst he was yet a protestant and his Maiestie King only of Nauarre and now since his comminge to the kingdome of France much trusted also and vsed by him in his ciuill affayres and in gouernment of the towne and country of Saumur For these causes I say and for that he hath wrytten many bookes he is accompted euery where for one of the cheeife champions and head pillars of Protestant Religion in France wherby this his disgrace so notoriously receaued in that thinge wherin he made publike profession to be exact to witt in true and playne dealinge must needs open the eyes of such as are discreet and desirous in deed to follow truth and decline from falshood and so it did vs after yow see The B. of Eureux on the other side named Monsieur Person is a person no lesse eminent markable both for that his parents being great Protestants himselfe also for many yeares he being a man also of great wyet extraordinary memory and by reason of his state of life more occupied in studyes as is probable then the other comminge afterward by readinge and by Gods especiall grace to be a Catholike he became so zealous earnest and ardent therin as none do more when they are full informed that his greatest indeauours since his conuersion haue byn to conuert also others and to impart that light which God hath bestowed vpon him to as many as possibly he can In which respect the K. Maiestie of France hauinge loued him much and esteemed also before when he was a Protestant and no lesse synce that he hath byn a zealous Catholike and knowinge him to be both learned faithfull sincere made choyce of him for his especially Embassadour in Rome in the yeare 1595. to treat his great affayre for his reconciliation to the Catholike Church which hath come to that happy issue which â—ll the world seeth both for the good of his â—arson people and crowne And thus much of these 2. persons who being both of them so gratefull and well liked of the King as I haue shewed his Maiesties indifferency in iudgmeÌ„t also betwene them both the truth of the cause only excepted must needs be voyd of all suspition and consequently his sentence afterward prononced on the one side as by his letter appeareth must in reason be thought to haue proceeded of the manifest difference of the said cause and force of truth it selfe which he discouered vpon that triall Now then to speake a word or two of the action as it passed you must vnderstand that about Christmasse last there came forth a booke in Paris of the aforsaid Monsieur Plessis against the Masse which booke making shew as the fashion is of great aboundance and ostentation of Fathers Councells Doctors and storyes for his purpose great admiration seemed to be conceaued therof and the Protestants euery where began to triumph of so famous a worke published in their behalfe Whervpon diuers Catholike learned men tooke occasion presently to examine the said booke finding many most egregious deceyts shiftes and falsifications therin diuers bookes were wrytten against it one in particular by a French Iesuite discouering at least a thousand falshoods of his part All the preachers of Paris in like manner
Plessis had omitted in his allegation Which iudgments being read and considered yt was wonderfull to behould the great diuersity of affections which they styrred vp to witt of comfort and alacrity in the Catholiks and of confusion greife in the Hugonotts there present who being in number aboue 200. considered that these sentences had passed by the consents aswell of their owne iudges as of the other that there was no way left of tergiuersation And further that Monsieur Plessis being one of the cheefest men simply of their Religion in France and most accoumpted of for his learninge this his disgrace was the disgrace of all their Religion and his error inexcusable in respect of his former bragges and Protestations and of the willfull falshood now found in him Wherfore diuers of them and those also of the principall began soone after by assistance of Gods holy grace to open their harts to another cogitation for their conuersion as a little after yow shall heare The Kings Maiestie also was exceedingly moued in mynd to see what had passed as may appeare by his affectious speaches and letter wrytten to Monsieur Espernon that very night after his departure from the conference which letters we haue recyted before and the causes of his motion we shall touch a little afterward when we haue sett downe what ensued immediatly vpon this first dayes conference which was a great reason also to mooue his Maiesty the more as presently yow shall see Wherfore we shall relate the same in the very words of the printed Acts which are these that follow The next morrow which was friday the fifth of May at 6. of the Clocke in the morning came a gentleman to the Bishop of Eureux telling him that Monsieur Plessis had byn very euill that night that he prayed the Bishop to be content to haue the conference differred for that morninge but the Bishop asked him for how longe this delay should be the gentleman answered vntill that Mōsieur Plessis should be in state of health to prosecute the same Soone after this there came to the Kings chamber Monsieur de la Riuiere cheefe phisitian to his Maiestie tellinge him that the conference was like to be broken vp by reason of the L. Plessis indisposition whome he said that he had left very sicke with violent vomitts and tremblings of all the parts of his body which he King hearinge comaunded him presently to go and tell the same to the L. Chancelour to the end that he and the deputyes should not take their iorney in vaine that day to the pallace which being told vnto them and they imagininge that perhaps Monsieur Plessis his sicknesse might endure longe sent that very night late to his Maiestie to know his iudgment pleasure whether they should remayne still in Fountayne-bleau or returne to Paris The King that he might giue them more certayne answere willed the Chancelour at ten of the clocke at night to go and see Plessis to know from his owne mouth what he would do concerning the prosecution of this conference The Chancelour hauing with him at that tyme the L. President Fresnes Canay cheefe deputy for the Protestant party in the said conference desyred him to go to him which he did and brought answere that Plessis was not in state to go forward now but he would aduise vpon it in Paris which answere being related to the Chancelour by the President and from the Chancelour to the King his Maiestie gaue licence to the iudges deputyes to depart to Paris which they did the next morninge being the sixt of May except only the President Fresnes who remained at Fontayn-bleau with the King But the next day at noone about six houres after the departure of the said deputyes the President Fresnes hauing byn to visitt Monsieur Plessis againe came and aduertised the Chancelour that he was much better in health that for his part the conference might beginne againe which the Chancelour hearinge sent presently for the B. of Eureux in presence of the said president told him the newes who was gladd therof and offered himselfe presently said moreouer that as yet his bookes were not sent away Which the Chancelour hearing called for the Secretary Monsieur Mercier chosen for the part of Plessis and willed him presently to go and signifie vnto him that he had vnderstood that he was better in health contēt to returne to the conference which if it were so the B. was also ready his bookes not yet sent away though some of the deputyes were departed yet the president Fresues their chiefe deputy remained others might be nominated at or vpon the very place it selfe But Monsieur Plessis answered that he was not maister of his owne sicknes which grew more and more vpon him and that he was goinge to Paris from whence he would not depart without seing the L. Chancelour to informe him of his affayres so conforme vnto this he departed the 8. of May being Monday and the Chancelour hauinge receaued his answere aduertised the K. therof and so they went all to Paris and his Maiestie arryued there vpon the 12. of May. And about some 4. or 5. dayes after Monsieur Plessis departed to his gouerment of Saumur without takinge his leaue of his Maiestie or seing the L. Chancelour as he had promised and without sending any word at all to the B. of Eureux about the conference or further triall Thus farre goeth the narration of the printed Acts published by authority of the King deputyes that were present wherby we see the end of this action and how the L. Plessis behaued himselfe therin But about 2. monethes after came forth the aforesaid little discourse with out name of author bearinge the title of true discourse of the conference at Fontayn-bleau full of elusions disguisments and inuectiues saith the B. of Eureux sett forth by Plessis himselfe though dissemblinge his name to the end he might enioye the fable vnder this maske and ly with out blushing obtruding to his Reader what he thought best For so are the words of the said Bishopp in the refutation of this michinge discourse which conteyned as before hath byn shewed three principall points the one in peruerting the story of the Acts themselues the second in diuising new shifts and euasions which occurred not vnto him while he was in the triall the third in recriminations or obiectinge other mens falsityes in like manner Which kind of proceedinge did more yet discreditt Plessis with the wiser sort of men then his former ouerthrow in the field for that this did shew indeed that to be true which Tertullian saith that heretiks may more easily be ouercome then persuaded and that Plessis had an obstinate mynd to go forward notwithstandinge whatsoeuer was should or might be proued against him but yet diuers other of the more learned and grauer sort of his owne
side began as hath byn said to enter into another cogitation to thinke whether yt were not best by this occasion to seeke out the truth of matters indeed and that without pertinacity or passion for so much as yt was a matter concerninge the eternall saluation or damnation of their soules And this happy course amonge others tooke as in part before yow haue vnderstood the aforsaid noble man of Normandy Monsieur Sainct-Mary du Mont who being a great Protestant before was first moued towards Catholike Religion partly by the Sermons of Monsieur Buchage brother to Duke Ioyeus made afterward a Capuchin friar as hath byn declared which Sermons were principally against the falsifications of Plessis in his booke against the Masse partly also by the sight of some of the said falsifications themselues shewed vnto him in priuate by the said B. of Eureux before the conference but he was fully conuerted by the trialll it selfe and became afterward a zealous Catholike But more notorious and admirable was the conuersion of the L. Fresnes Canay cheife president for the Protestant party in the parlament Chamber called Demy party in Languedocke chosen by Monsieur Plessis himselfe for chiefe deputy on his party for this conferēce who taking the same course in enforminge himselfe found matters so euident as he became a Catholike vpon the sight of this triall and that with such feruour as he would not be absolued secretly of his heresie before held as for respect vnto his dignity and place was offered but would needs abiure publikely in the hands of the B. of Paris and so he did being a very learned man in his profession at this day is Embassadour for his Christian Maiestie with the State of Venice where his wife in like manner the last yeare by his owne especiall meanes she being a Lady of much nobility was conuerted also both of them remayned most zealous Catholiks Which two examples of Monsieur Sainct-Mary and Mousieur President Fresnes both of them being learned and earnest Protestants all their life before did greatly mooue the King himselfe for his comfort and confirmation in Catholike Religion but no one thing so much as his being present at the forsaid Conference and so he is said to haue often confessed afterward for that he saw there that which he could neuer haue imagined to witt that men of learning iudgment would willfully for maintayninge of faction wryte and publish that which they must needs know in their consciences to be false He cōsidered that these 9. places there examined were picked out by Plessis himselfe of 60. sent him by the Bishop and that these 60. were but a parcell of 500. which the said B. had bound himselfe to exhibite in 10. dayes to be discussed and that by all probability the forsaid 9. were of the least falsified and easiest to be defended of all the rest at least wise of the first 60. for that otherwise Monsieur Plessis would not haue chosen them Wherfore hauinge seene by experience that no one of those 9. was able to be defended from plaine and willfull falshood he imagined what would fall out in the rest if the conference had gone forward and if all should passe as in these 9. throughout the 500. there ready to be exhibited yea in 3500. more which the Bishop said he had gathered out and offered to bynd himselfe to conuince them of no lesse falsity and imposture then those nyne and all this out of one boooke These things I say laid togeather his Maiestie had good cause to thinke what may be thought of that mans conscience that wryteth and printeth such a booke in matters of Religion Moreouer his Maiestie could not but remember what tales the said Plessis and other such fellowes had told him against Catholiks Catholike Religion for many yeares whilst he was yet a Protestant to witt that they had no truth on their side no antiquity noe true ancient authority but all was for them and their new pretended Religio◠He could not forgett also what sollemne protestations they were accustomed to make of their owne sincerity both in wrytinge and preachinge and especially Plessis in this last contētion about his booke before yt came to the tryall offering to leese his life and honour yea to burne his owne hand yf any one place were proued to be wittingly corrupted or falsified which yet was so euidently conuinced by the triall not in one only but in euery one of the nine places as no man of reason could deny yt and the deputyes of his owne party gaue sentence against him Wherfore this hauing so fallen out and the Bishop of Eureux protestinge of his side that the places of greatest corruption remayned yet behind aboue twenty fold more in number then those that had byn examined seing also the shamfull flight of Monsieur Plessis from the continuation of the combatt and the shamelesse discourse cast abroad by him without a name wherin many matters of fact well knowne to his Maiesty were denied affirmed or disguised according to passion most contrary to the knowne reall truth therof All these considerations I say many other concurring togeather and representing themselues to his Maiesties wisdome made him to feele infinite comfort in the happy resolution he had taken of being a Catholike and to contemne from that day forward all contentious wrytings of factious sectaryes that care not what they say or wryte so they may therby hould vp their sect and faction Neyther did this euent of Plessy Mornayes conferēce worke those effects only for the openinge his Maiesties eyes and vnderstanding in Religion but of many more besides throughout France wherof though I be not so particularly informed as many others bee yet diuers persons of marke could I name besides the former two that receaued like light grace from almighty God by the same meanes and of great Hugonots became good Catholiks as the L. Baron Saligniac Liefetennant for the K. of the countrey of Lymoge togeather with his wife daughter of the Chauncelour intituled Del Hospital and sister to the Archbishopp of Ais. The L. Baron du Bonneuald a great noble man in Lymosin togeather with another Baron of Gascoigne whose name occurreth not at this present though I haue seene the narration of his conuersion wrytten out of France Monsieur du Sansay Entendent ouer the Kings Finances in France Diuers cheefe learned men also and among them some Ministers as namely Monsieur Caiette late Minister and Preacher to the Kings sister marryed to the Prince of Loraine togeather with diuers of her cheefe officers amongst which was Monsieur du lac de Barn Monsieur Rebeul Monsieur Sponde th' elder two great learned men and another Sponde brother to the former no lesse learned who at this day hath the care of the Popes library in Rome togeather with a nephew of Iohn Caluyn conuerted entertayned like wise by his
somtymes be taken for the same and then that the clause omitted was not of such importance after both these refuges largely confuted by the Bishopp as in part yow may see before vpon the examen of this place sentence was giuen against him by consent of all the deputyes which O. E. would now gladly haue reuersed Let vs see his good reasons and arguments he bringeth for the same To the first obiection of Translating falsely Images for Idolls O. E. first answereth thus As yf euery one saith he that doth translate amisse were to be charged with falsification or as yf all badd translations of the old Latyn interpreter of the Bible were so many falsifications And is not this a substantiall answere we do not say Syr Mathew that all erroneous translations be falsifications yf they be of meere error without malice but yf yt be with plaine intention to deceaue the reader and to make him apprehend one thing for another in fauour of their heresies then can yt not be denyed but that yt is falsification and wicked deceyte as heere now to translate the word Idoll in Theodorete by the word Image leauinge out those other words adored by the pagans for Gods wherby his meaninge was declared that he meant not of Christian Images but of pagan Idolls Was not this deceyt in Plessis and was not this cosenage in willfull corruption resolue yow the case out of your diuinity And where our English Sectaryes at this day in their translatioÌ„s of scripture in their Bibles do translate one and the selfe same word out of Hebrew Greeke and Latyn diuersly accordinge as yt serueth to their purposes is it not truly falsification as for example the selfe same Greeke word Idoll and Idolator they translate in some places so and in other Image and Imageworshippers the Greeke word signifyinge tradition whersoeuer traditions are reprehended they translate yt tradition but whersoeuer they are commended yt is turned into ordinances instructions c. Whersoeuer Priests are reprehended or spoken euill of there the word Priest is neuer omitted but where they are spokeÌ„ well of there must come in the words Elders Ministers and the like Though the Greeke Hebrew words be the selfe same as in the other place And almost infinite other such examples you may read learnedly laid togeather in the discouery of Maister Gregory Martyn of hereticall corruptions in translation of the scriptures And thus much to O. E. his first answere let vs see his second Besides this saith he Maister Plessis offered to prooue and most true it is that euery Image hauing idolatrous or heathen worshipp done vnto yt is Idolum And who denyeth this Syr Mathew can yow or yours proue that the reuerence we do to the sacred Images of Christ his Saints is idolatrous or heathenist Then may yow condemne all those auncient Fathers with the vniuersall Church of their tyme for heathenist Idolators which are alleaged by the Bishop in his reply to Plessis discourse and shewed out of their owne words testimonyes that they vsed Images with this Christian hononrâ— and worshipp which we talke of in the most florishing time of Gods Church wherof themselues were the cheefest flowers as namely to recyte some as they ly in his booke Prudentius Cassianus Paulinus Gregorius Nissenus Basil Theodorete Hierome Gregorius Turonensis Gregory the great Euagrius Chrysostome Bede Damascen and others to whose authorityes and sentences O. E. answereth heere not one word but letteth them slipp as though he had neuer heard of them and this is his common tricke when he hath nothing to reply yet notwithstanding shall yow heare him bragg and vaunt anon when the skyrmish is ended as yf he had fully answered all and playd his prise with great manhood And thus much about the first falsification in translatinge Image for Idoll wherin O. E. hath valiantly holpen his client as yow see Lett vs now examine what succour he geueth him for the second charge to witt for leauinge out the words adored by pagans for Gods which should haue explicated Theodoretts plaine meaning that he vnderstood not of Christian Images when he spake against such kind of Idolls To the second obiection is answered saith he vvordsâ— gentibus culta being sett downe in the allegation do rather hurt then help the Papists that vvorshipp Images vvith kissinge croachinge censinge prayinge as the gentills did their Idolls those reasons therfore that are forcible against the Idolls of the Gentills are also most forcible against the Popish vvorshipp of Images So saith he And this is all the substance of his aunswere to this obiection wherin to omit his intemperat raylinge I would haue euery man of reason to consider the folly falshood of his answere falshood in tellinge vs only that these words à gentibus culta were left out wheras Theodoret saith à gentibus culta pro dijs culta worshipped by pagans and worshipped for Gods wherin standeth the whole point of the controuersie His folly is apparant in telling vs that if these words had byn truly sett downe and not left out by Plessis yt had byn worse for vs geuinge vs therby to vnderstand that Plessis of compassion not to hurt vs more left them out but yet at leastwise this good we should haue had therby yf he had left them in as he found them that the place of Theodorett cyted by him against Images would plainly haue appeared impertinent to the purpose for that yt treated only of pagan Idolls and this had bâ—n help inough for the Papists against Plessis and O. E. who from this place of Theodorete corrupted by them would impugne Christian Images now let the Christian reader iudge what help Plessis and O. E. had need to haue to deliuer them from the note of so false dealinge And this shal be sufficient for this briefe examen of the 9. places aforesaid out of which O. E. being once gotten harken I pray yow how he craketh boasteth and vaunteth If then saith he the aduersary could not gett any ground of Maister Plessis in these places vvhich vvere chosen as principall and placed first as places of most aduantage we may well suppose yf the triall had proceeded that he would haue receaued farre more disgrace c. And againe yf a gentleman no professed diuine vpon such vnequall tearmes was able to make head against his aduersaryes much better I hope should we be able to resist yf professed diuines might procure an indifferent triall c. And yet further most ridiculous it is to thinke that this Thrasonicall Chalenger was able to make good that cause which neyther with lyinge forginge facinge nor any witt or pollicy the greatest clarks of that faction are able to maintayne And in his preface to the refutation of my relation It will plainly appeare by examination of the particulars that the L. of Plessis vvas most vniustly charged
Religion can be visible for our Sauiour Christ saith that true vvorshippers vvorshipp God in spiritt and truth but spirituall vvorshipp and true internall deuotion is not so easily seene vnlesse therfore our aduersary suppose Popish Religion to consist in the Popes myter and in cooles of monks and such like externall matters he shall hardly proue Religion to be visible And is not this matter subtilly shifted of thinke yow or may not this man play his prize in this kind of fensinge in what place soeuer True Religion saith he is not visible What then yet men that professe true Religion are visible and by them may the continuance of true Religion be visibly deduced and this was that which his aduersary meaÌ„t when he said that the visible Church or Congregation of Englishmen comming downe visibly from the tyme of S. Gregory vnto oures and professing alwayes one and the selfe same faith Religion did make a visible Church and therby a visible deduction of Catholike Religion for the space of a thousand yeares to geather and that this was not only to be seene or proued by the Popes myter or cooles of monkes as this merry madd minister iesteth but by all English Kings crownes and coronations by all parlament robes and other honourable testimonyes of our nobility both spirituall and temporall and by whatsoeuer other most authenticall proofe this scoffer can diuise And who then will not laugh to see him for ouerthrow of all this demonstration to start out behind a bush and say Lett him shew vs yf he can that true Religion is visible Wherby yow may somewhat see into the man and his witt talent Let vs passe to the second part of his booke The second part of this new edition conteyneth as before hath byn shewed a renewinge of his former chalenge wherof yt shall not be needfull for me to speake any more in this place hauinge declared before the causes and speciall motiueâ— of this needlesse renouation only I will say that whosoeuer will take the paynes to reade the briefe learned answere of VV. R. against the same and the multitude of errors ignorances lyes and frauds therin conuinced he will blush in Sutcliffes behalfe yf he be his frend or laugh and insult ouer him yf he be his enemy and whensoeuer he shall make his reply for the first edition already answered I do not thinke but that VV. R. yf the thinge it selfe be not to contemptible will vouchsafe to returne his full reioynder both to that and this or at least wise to the most principall points of them both Wherfore we shall leaue this passe to the third part wherin we shal be forced to stay and entertaine our selues somwhat longer for examination of certayne places obiected against Maister Sutcliffe by E. O. and therby see his talent in answeâ—inge for himselfe whether yt be better then for his client before and albeit I shall not be able to stand vpon the siftinge of many places heere yet will the vew of some two or three of the first giue a good coniecture of all the rest Wherfore the third part of this new edition comprehendeth as before hath byn signified the shew of a certayne answere or defence of Maister Sutcliffe his truth and honest dealing in 26. places or therabout obiected to him by E. O. as fraudulently handled And albeit before he come to the combat he do send forth those excessiue vaunts and bragges which in part you haue heard yet in the conflict yt selfe yow are like to see the poore man not a little daunted and encumbred The difference also of speach betweene him his aduersary will appeare notoriously markeable for so much as himselfe recytinge his aduersaryes words and arguments for besides his owne relation we haue nothinge therof doth scarse euer note hard speach or phrase vsed by him against himselfe wheras the others answere is a perpetuall inuectiue of intemperate scoldinge asse dolt dizard in grayne franticke lunatike estaticall owleglas and like tearmes ate the ordinary and cheefe flowers of his phrases and yet notwithstandinge yf yow stand attent to the matter and marke what passeth in the combatt yow will quickely lay the truth of these reprochefull phrases vpon Sutcliffe himselfe and say that he deserueth them for contemning so lightly so graue modest and learned an aduersary as his seemeth to be And surely yf he be the man in deed whome Sutcliffe aduentureth to name in some partes of his annswere that is to say Maister Ph. VV. I haue knowne him for such many yeares and he may hold Sutcliffe to Schoole as many yeares more in discretion vertue and true skill of diuinity yf a man may iudge of him accordinge to his wrytings but this shall appeare better by the examination of the places which I â—aue promised to discusse And yet heere yow must be aduertised that we shall not be able to make this exameÌ„ so exactly in all points as otherwayes we would desire for that we haue not the treatise yt selfe of E. O. his accusations for which cause we are forced to alleage things only as Sutcliffe is content to cyte them whome in euery thinge lightly we find both faulty false and faithlesse and therfore yf he be conuinced heere by his owne relation yow must be sure that yt is with more then euident reason The first place then obiected by E. O. against O. E. now discouered to be Mathuw Sutcliffe ys taken out of this chalenge of the first edition cap. 1. pag. 20. num 10. where he auoucheth boldly that the vse of exorcisuis blowinge salt spittle ballowed water annoyntments lights and other such ceremonyes as his words are vvere not practized by the auncient Church c. Against which false assertion E. O. obiecteth first Iohn Caluyn his maister who confesseth these ceremonyes to be very ancient And secondly he alleageth diuers Fathers that make mentioÌ„ of the same each one in their tymes Origen Nazianzen Ambrose and others Lett vs see now how this minister will deliuer himselfe of this first charge and do you marke his shifts for neuer mouse in a trapp nor dogge in a cannase did seeke more holes to runne out at thâ—â— this slippery fellow First about Caluyn he seemeth to be most troubled esteeminge more of his authority perhaps then of all the rest alleaged and therfore he saith How leglasse doth affirme for so he teasmeth his aduersary without comparison more learned then himselfe that Caluyn doth confesse yt to witt the antiquity of these ceremonyes but vvhat yf yt be true and vvhat yf Maister Caluyn do not confesse that vvhich I say to be vntruth Marke good reader do you not see heere a sound beginninge of answeringe by contrary interrogations to witt what yf yt be true and what yf yt be not true but yow will aske me what in the end is his resolution about Iohn Caluyn Yow shall heare yt many lines
this also the B. said was no reason for that perhapps other men would find other faults in other places which he had not examined and that after these first 500. now obiected were examined he offered to be bound to go ouer his whole booke page by page and lyne by lyne as Plessis desired The third petition was that if this might not be graunted that at least the Bishopp would giue him in wrytinge the first 500. places that he had noted togeather with his proofes against the same and that he might haue tyme to examine them before hands to cutt of long disputes before his Maiestie But to this the Bishopp aunswered in like manner that if he did so the other would aske so much tyme to examine them as he would delude this conference now appointed Wherfore he offered that yf the present triall might go forward he would send him 50. places the day before to prouide himselfe for the first day and so 50. the next day for the second conference and so forth for 10. dayes togeather vntill all the 500. were examined The fourth demaund was that the same order might be held in examininge his booke which he had held in wrytinge the same to witt beginninge from the first part therof c. But this also the Bishopp refused sayinge that it was only a shift for that Plessis comonly had haÌ„dled only light points in the first part of his booke wheron it was no reason to stand and leese tyme but rather as an accuser he might begin where he would and that Plessis was bound to aunswere him yet for the last vpshott to end all he offered the King to giue the whole 500. places presently into his Maiesties hands in wrytynge so to take them from him euery day by 50. at once to be examined in ten dayes as is afore said and after this he said he would bynd himselfe to remaine a whole moneth with him in Paris or els where he should thinke best to examine the rest of the 4000. After this vpon the second day of May all the iudges and comissaryes being now arriued except the President Calignon that remained sicke in Paris Monsieur Plessis gaue vp another Memoriall to the King requyring yet once againe that the Bishop would giue him in wrytinge the 500. places gathered against him or at least wayes deliuer them vp into the hands of the Iudges with commission that yf this conference were broken of they should deliuer them into the hands of the said Plessis and that duringe the conference they should deliuer him only 50. a day Whervpon the King calling the Bishop into his great gallery in the presence of the Chancelour and of Monsieur Rosny president of the finances as also of the president of Tou Cazaubon and others asked him why he would not yeld to this demaund whervnto he answered as before saying that this was but a new delay therby to gett into his hands the whole 500. places and then to seeke to answere them rather by wrytinge then by present confereÌ„ce which he might breake of by diuers occasions yf once he were sure to haue therby the places into this hands and therfore he desired his Maiestie to admitt no further delayes now but that the appointed triall might go forward which being once ended he promised most faithfully that he would stay to examine the whole booke as longe as his Maiestie should appoint or Plessis desire Whervpon the Lords present as well Protestants as Catholiks said that the Bishopp had good reason in his answers to Plessis his demaunds and thervpon the Chancelour was coÌ„manded by the King to goe pronounce this arrest vnto the said L. Plessis and that yf he would not go forward as he had promised his Maiestie would take another course proceed to the examination of his booke in his absence which message the Chancelour hauing done Plessis answered that he could not accept of yt wherat the Chancelour told him that he should looke well to his creditt for that if he should be found to be a falsifier in matters of diuinity his booke condemned in his absence yt would be a great shame vnto him whervnto the other replayed that he had rather yt should be condeÌ„ned vniustly in his absence then in his presence which answere being carried to the K. by the Chancelour his Maiestie commaunded that the examine should begin that very afternoone at three of the clocke but after vpon other busines that fell out it was deferred vntill the next day at 7. of the clocke in the morning which determinatioÌ„ of the K. being knowne there was great dealing with his Maiestie by diuers of the pretended Religion that the matter should not go forward and new articles demaunds were proposed in the behalfe of Monsieur Plessis and namely two noble men Protestants named Castelnau Chambaret as also the president Fresne Canay cheefe deputy of their side tooke in haÌ„d to deale betwene the King Plessis the Bishop after many goings commings messages answers replyes it was agreed that the B. should giue him presently 60. places in wryting of the 500. promised to prepare himselfe for the next day which the Bishop did out of those 60. Plessis chose 19. which seemed to him most defencible with which he weÌ„t to the King protesting as followeth Syr of the 60. passages sent me by the Bishop of Eureux I haue had tyme only to examine and verifie 19. and of these I will leese my honour and life yf he fynd one false I shall proue my selfe this day before your Maiestie to be another manner of man then he esteemeth me These were his words Which being heard the King sent presently for the Bishop and gaue him the list of the 19. places which Plessis had chosen to defend which list when the Bishopp had read he tould the King the deputyes that stood present with him that he found deceatfull dealinge in euery point for that these 60. places being gathered in hast and tumultuously as his Maiestie knew himselfe in lesse then halfe an houres space by his commandemeÌ„t out of certaine loose papers where aboue 800. corruptions were noted of Monsieur Plessis and put togeather as they lay in order he had chosen to defend them not as they stood in the Catalogue but by particular election to witt the 27. 39. 44. 50. 53. 56. c. And whereas there were most of the ancient fathers named in this list as corrupted by him only two schoolmen among the rest for example sake to witt Scotus and Durandus he had guiâ—fully placed them in the first ranke of his 19. placed to begin withall as captaynes of the rest therby to disauthorize the whole conference and to weary the hearers as though the cheefe moment of the triall had byn about Scotus and Durandus The K. answered that it should be good to giue
contentment to Plessis and those of his party wherein it might be for which cause he said further as before that he desired this conference might passe with all quietnesse possible and that the Bishop should abstayne as much as he could from vsing the word false or falsification and other such like as might be offensiue for that his intent was to pacifie and gaine men by this triall and not to exasperate And the same he said also vnto the Lords deputyes there present requiring them that yf they should see any man wax into bitternesse choler they should restraine him seeke to end all with good words and substantiall matter After dynner about one of the clocke the said conference was begone in presence of his Maiestie and of a great number of the cheefe nobles of France which were long to name for before the K. satte the L. Chancelour and the deputyes of both partyes before named and at his right hand satt the Archbishopp of Lyons and sundry other Bishopps and on his left hand the 4. secretaryes of State behind the King sate the Princes namely the Dukes of Vaudemont Nemeurs Mercury Dumayne Niuers Elbeuse Aignilon Ianuile and others and after them againe the officers of the crowne Counselors of State and others of the nobility and about 200. other hearers within the chamber aboue 500. in a gallery and garden without expecting the resolutiō from passage to passage wherof there were many Protestants and diuers Ministers of the new Keligion All being sett the L. Chancelour made first a briefe speech confirmed afterward by the King himselfe that the meaning of this meeting was to try out the truth of certaine allegations that were called in controuersy in the L. Plessis booke and not to dispute of any article of Religion at all to which effect also the Bishop had a breefe speech alleaging the example of Eugenius Archbishop of Carthage who being required by Hunnericus King of the Vandalls in Africa to dispute with the Arrians he refused the same without consent of other Bishopps and especially of the B. of Rome as head of all Monsieur Plessis also made a very short preface saying that as he had wrytten his books with intent to do God seruice for the reformation of his Church and would thinke himselfe happy yf he could help any thing therin so was he so farre of from all intention of willfull falsifyinge that yf he knew his right hand to haue done yt he should be the first to burne the same He made mention againe and shewed greefe that 4. thousand places should be noted as falsified by him in his booke and finally protested that howsoeuer it succeded with him his cause was particular and touched not the reformed Churches in France which were before him and would be after him c. The B. repeated againe the matter of 4000. places corrupted and offered to stand vnto yt and to verifie them as well as those 500. new agreed vpon and repeated againe breifely the whole story of this action and how guilfully Plessis had proceeded in cullinge out 19. places only of 60. offered him and of these had put in the first ranke Scotus and Durand two schoolemen about the controuersie of the Sacrament leauing out other places of S. Cyprian S. Cyrill S. Chrisostome other ancient Fathers obiected to haue bin corrupted by him in the very same controuersie of the reall presence amongst the number of these three score which fraud to the end the iudges and deputyes might see and behould he laid downe vpon the table that stood before them the whole Catalogue of the said 60. places sent the day before to Plessis which being done the King comaunded the foure secretaryes of the crowne to wryte only the conclusions and iudgments that should be giuen and not the whole speaches for yt would be ouerlonge and so the conference began the B. sayinge at the opening of the first booke Domine labi◠mea aperies os meum annunciabit laudem tuam Monsieur Plessis also prayed briefly with his hatt before his face c. OF NINE PLACES EXAMINED IN THIS FIRST DAYES conference and how they were all iudged by sentence of the deputyes to haue byn corrupted by Monsieur Plessis CHAP. II. IN this first dayes conference which endured 6. houres there could be examined only 9. places of the 19. which Plessis had chosen to defend of which nine also the first two by his art and fraude as in the former Chapter hath byn seene were of 2. schoolemen or scholasticall wryters Scotus and Durandus which being only named for exāple sake by the B. of Eureux in his catalogue of 60. places but yet after many more important then they of the anciēt Fathers which Plessis thought good to thrust backe all the said ancient Fathers and namely S. Cyprian S. Cyrill of Ierusalem S. Iohn Christostome and others cited in the same controuersie and many more in other questions to aduāce forward to the first second places of triall the said Scotus and Durandus thinking therby partly to weary his Maiesty the audience and to make the conference lothsome and contemptible by so base a beginning partly also presuming that he might more easily trifle out the tyme in wranglinge about these as he did a whole houre about the first place only of Scotus and would haue done the whole day yf he might haue byn permitted but the Bishop discouering this fraud vnto the auditorye shewed withall that his deceyt and false dealing was all one in corrupting meane authors as the best and greatest therfore that it was not so much to be cōsidered by the iudges what the wryter was that was falsified but how much with how great fraud he is falsifyed And with this they passed to the particulars The first place examined out of Scotus about the reall presence This preamble being made the B. began to read out of Plessis booke pag. 869. accordinge to his forsaid edition in 4. printed at Rochell by Hierome Hautin these words out of Scotus about the Sacrament of the Altar Iohn Duns saith he called Scot almost 100. yeares after the Councell of Lateran was not afraid to call in question if the body of Christ be really conteyned vnder the species or accidents of bread and he disputeth that it is not and his arguments are for that the quantity doth not permitt yt nor yet the locality and circumscription annexed to the nature of a true body such a one as Christ had c. Thus he And then for proofe he quoteth in the margent Scotus vpon the 4. booke of Sentences dist 10. quaest 1. Out of which place the B. did inferre two willfull and malitious deceyts of Plessis the first that he would make his Reader beleeue that Scotus the rest of the Schoolemen when they propose any matter to be disputed to and fro do doubt of the truth therof