with Catiline for overturning the commonwealth of Rome was compelled to renounce his Praetorship and the Decemviri the makers of the Roman Lawes were taken order with even whilst they enjoyed thâ— supream authority Some Dukes of Venice and Chilpericus King of france laying aside their Royall honours as private men spenâ— their dayes in Monasteries And not long ago Christiernus King of the Danes twenty years almost after he was deprived of his Kingdome did end his life in prison Now the Dictatorship which was a Kind of Tyranny was in the peoples power And this priviledge hath been constantly observed that publick benefices granted amiss and the liberty granted to ingrate persons set at liberty whom Lawes do very much favour might be taken back again These things we have spoken of forrain Nations lest we alone seeme to have usurped any new priviledge against our Kings But as to what doth properly belong to us the matter might have been handled in few words M What way For this I am very desirous to heare B I might enumerat twelve or more Kings who for great crimes and flagitious deeds have been either adjudged to perpetuall imprisonment or escaped the just punishment of their wickedness either by exile or voluntary death But lest any blame me for relating old and obsolete stories if I should make mention of Culen Even and Ferchard I shall produce some few within the memory of our forefathers All the Estates in a publick convention judged James the third to have been justly killed for his great cruelty and flagitious wickedness towards his Subjects and did caution that none of them who had aided consented or contributed money or had been active therein to be called thereafter into question therefore That they therefore did judge the deed to be duely and orderly done it being once down doubtless they desired it might be set down for an example in timâ— coming surely no less than L Quintiuâ— sitting in judgment did Commend Serviliuâ— Ahalus for having killed before the bench Spâ— Mellus turning his back and refusing to comâ—pear into judgment and that he was not guilty of blood shed but thought him to be nobiâ—litat by the slaughter of a Tyrant and alâ— posterity did affirme the same What Subjecâ— hath ever approved the slaughter of one affecâ—ting Tyranny what do you suppose would he have done with a Tyrant robbing the good of his Subjects and shedding their blood What hath our men done do not they seemâ— to have made a Law who by a publick decreâ— without any punishment have past by a flagitiâ—ous crime committed if such like shall happeâ— in time coming for at most there is no diffeâ—rence whether you judge concerning thaâ— which is done or make a Law concerning what is to be done For both wayes a judgâ—ment is past concerning the Kind of the crime and concerning the punishment or reward oâ— the actor M. These things will perhaps havâ— some weight amongst us But I know not how other Nations abroad will take them You seâ— I must satisfy them Not as in a judiciall way I were to be called in question for the crime but openly amongst all concerning the fame not mine for I am far from any suspition thereof but of my countrey men For I am afraid lest forrain Nations will rather blamâ— the decrees wherewith you suppose you are sufficiently protected than the crime it self full of cruelty and hatred But you know if I mistake not what is usually spoken according to the disposition and opinion of every one on both hands concerning the examples you have proposed I would therefore because you seeme to have expeded what is past not so much from the decrees of men as from the springs of Nature you would briefly expound if you have ought to â—ay for the equity of that Law B. Albeit that may seeme unjust to stand at the bar to plead amongst forrainers for a Law approved from the very first times of our Scots Government by Kings by the constant practice of so many ages ago necessary for the people not unjust for Kings but Lawfull but now at last accused of illegality yet for your sake I shall try it And as if I were debating with those very men who would trouble you I first ask this What do you think here worthy of reprehension Is it the cause why is it sought for or is it the Law it self which you reprehended for the Law was sought for repressing the unjust lusts of Kings Whoever doth condemne this must likewise condemne all the Lawes of all Nations for all Lawes were desired for the very same cause Do you reprehend the Law it self do you think it Lawfull that Kings be exempted of or not lyable to the Lawes let us then see if that be also expedient And for proving that it is not expedient for the people there needs not many words For it in the former discourse we have rightly compared a King to a Physician as it is not expedient for people that impunity be permitted to a Physician for killing whom he pleaseth so it is not for the good of all that a promiscuous licence be granted to Kings for making havock of all We have no cause then to be offended with a people whose chief power it is in making Lawes if as they desire a good King to be set over them even so a Law to be set over a King none of the best But if this Law be not for the Kings use or profit let us see if the people should be dealt with to remit somewhat of their priviledge and of abrogating it not for the space of three dayes but according to our usuall way we indict a Parliament to meet within fourty dayes In the mean time that we may reason together concerning the Law tell me doth he seeme to respect the good of a mad man who looseth his bonds M. Not at all B. What do you think of him who giveth to a man sick of a feaver so as he is not far from madness a drink of cold water though earnestly craving it do you think he deserveth well of that sick man M. But I speak of Kings of a sound mind I deny that there is any need of medicine for such as are in health nor of Lawes for Kings of a sound mind But you would have all Kings to seeme wicked for you impose Lawes upon all B. I do not think that all Kings are wicked Nor do I think all the people to be wicked and yet the Law in one voice doth speak to the whole people Now wicked men are afraid at that voice good people do not think it belongs to them Thus good Kings have no cause to be offended at this Law and wicked Kings if they were wise would render thanks to the Law giver who hath ordained what he understood would not be proâ—â—table for them nor to be Lawfull for them to do Which indeed they will not do if so be they shall
seeme almost to preceive what a people can do but it is a matter of difficulty to judge what they will do or appoint to be done For the greatest part almost doth require old and usuall customes and hateth novelty which the rather is to be admired seeing there is so great an inconstancy in meat apparell buildings and in all houshold furniture B. Do not think that these things are spoken by me that I would have any new thing in this Kind to be done but that I might shew you it hath been of old that a King should answer in judgment before Judges which you did believe to be almost incredible or at least a novelty For to pass over how often it hath been done by our Ancestors as partly before we have said and you may also easily collect from history did you never hear of those who contended for the Kingdome to have appealed to Arbiters M. I have indeed heard it to have been sometimes done amongst the Persians B. And our writers affirme that the same was done by Grimas and Milcolumbus But lest you alleadge that that Kind of Arbiters were wount to be assumed by the Contenders own consent let us come to the ordinary Judges M. Here I am afraid you may as far prevail as if a man should spread nets in the sea to catch whales B. Why so I pray you M. Because all apprehending restraint and punishment is carryed on by the more powerfull against the weaker But before what judges will you command a King to compear Before them over whom he hath the supream power to judge whom he can compesce by this one word I Forbid B. What if some greater power be found which hath that right priviledge or jurisdiction over Kings which Kings have over others M. I desire to hear that B. We told you if you remember that this power is in the people M. In the whole people indeed or in the greatest part thereof I also yeeld thus further that it is in those to whom the people or the greatest part of them shall transmit that power B. You do well in holding in my pains M. But you know that the greatest part of the people is corrupted either through fear or reward or through some hope of a bribe and impunity so as they preferre their own benefit and pleasures or lusts to the publick utility and also safety Now there are very few who are not hereby moved according to that of the Poet. Good people are indeed rare scarce so many in number as there be gates in Thebes or issues of the River Nilus Now all the rest being a naughty rable fatned with blood and rapine enjoy their venal liberty and envy the liberty of others Now that I may pass from those with whom the name of wicked Kings also is sacred I also omit those who albeit they are not ignorant what is Lawfull and just or right yet preferre a quiet slougfulness to honest hazards and hesitating in their minds do frame their consultations on the expectation of the event or follow the good fortune of either party but not the cause How great this multitude will be you see B. Great indeed but yet not very great For the wrong of Tyrants may reach many but their good deeds very few For the advarice of the vulgar is insatiable as a fire is the more vehemently kindled by adding few all thereto But what is by force taken away from many doth rather increase the hunger of some few than satiat their lust And further the fidelity of such men for the most part is unstable As saith the Poet. Fidelity doth stand and fall with fortune But if they would also continue firme in their judgment they should not be accounted in the number of good subjects for they are the violators or rather betrayers of humane society which vice if not sufferable in a King is far less tolerable in a private person Who then are to be accounted the right subjects they who give obedience to the Lawes maintain and defend humane society who rather undergo all paines and Labours and all hazards for common safety than spend their time sluggishly in idleness void of all honesty who set before their eyes not their present enjoyments but the remembrance of eternity But if there be any whom fear and self interest recall from hazards yet the splendor of some notable atchievment and the beauty of vertue will raise up dejected minds and those who dare not be Authors or Leaders will not decline to become associats If therefore subjects be reckoned not by number but by dignity and worth not only the better part but also the greater part will stand for their liberty honesty and safety But if the whole common people dissent this sayes nothing to our present debate for we demand not what is to be done but what may Lawfully be done But now let us come to the ordinary judiciall sentences M That I just now look for B If any private man contend that his inheritance or some part of his land is unjustly detained by the King what do you think should this privat man do shall he pass from his land because he cannot set a judge over the King M Not at all but he may command not the King but his proxy to compear in judgment B Now see what strength that refuge hath whereof you make use For it is all one to me whether the King compear or his proxy or Advocat for both wayes the litis-contestation will redound to the Kings loss the dammage or gain will redound to him not to his Advocat by the event of the sentence In end he is found guilty that is he whose cause is agitat Now I would have you consider not only how absurd it is but also unjust to pass sentence against a King for a perty inheritance for lights in a house or for ease droppings thereof and no sentence to be past for parricide witchcraft or treason To make use of the severity of the Law in lesser matters and the greatest licence and impunity to be permitted in the greatest crimes So that that old proverb seemes plainly true Lawes are very like spiders webs which hold flies fast but let bigger beasts pass through Nor is that complaint and indignation of some just who say that it is neither honest nor equitable that judgment should pass against a King by a man of an inferrour rank seeing they see it received and admitted in debate about money or land and the greatest peers next to the King for the most part compear before the Judges who are inferiour to them in riches nobility and valour And not much above the vulgar rank and far more below the guilty than the greatest Peers are below Kings Nor yet for all this do these Noble men or Peers think it any derogation to their dignity Now if we shall once admit this that no man can be sisted before a judge unless the judge be every
by name you make a King who with authority doth oppress and with fetters and imprisonment doth bind and so let him be sent back to the plough again or to his former condition yet free of fetters B Brave words I impose no lord over him but I would have it in the peoples power who gave him the authority over themselves to prescribe to him a modell of his government and that the King may make use of that justice which the people gave him over themselves This I crave I would not have these lawes to be by force imposed as you interpret it but I think that by a common council with the King that should be generally established which may generally tend to the good of all M You will then grant this liberty to the people B Even to the people indeed unless perhaps you be of another mind M Nothing seemes less equitable B Why so M You know that saying A beast with many heads You know I suppose how great the temerity and inconstancy of a people is B I did never imagine that that matter ought to be granted to the judgment of the whole people in general but that near to our custome a select number out of all estates may conveen with the King in council And then how soon an overturne by them is made that it be deferred to the peoples judgment M I understand well enough your advice But by this so carefull a caution you seem to help your self nothing You will not have a King loosed from lawes why Because I think within man two most cruell monsters lust and wrath are in a continuall conflict with reason Lawes have been greatly desired which might repress their boldness and reduce them too much insulting to regard a just government What will these Counsellours given by the people do Are they not troubled by that same intestine conflict Do they not conflict with the same evils as well as the King The more then you adjoyn to the King as Assessors there will be the greater number of fools from which you see what is to be expected B But I expect a far other thing than you suppose Now I shall tell you why I do expect it First it is not altogether true what you suppose viz. That the assembling together of a multitude is to no purpose of which number there will perhaps be none of a profound wit for not only do many see more and understand more than one of them apart but also more than one albeit he exceed their wit and prudence For a multitude for the most part doth better judge of all things than single persons apart For every one apart have some particular vertues which being united together make up one excellent vertue which may be evidently seen in Physicians pharmacies and especially in that antidot which they call Mithredat For therein are many things of themselves hurtfull apart which being compounded and mingled together make a wholesome remedy against poyson In like manner in some men slowness and lingering doth hurt in others a precipitant temerity both which being mingled together in a multitude make a certain temperament and mediocrity which we require to be in every kind of vertue M Be it so seeing you will have it so let the people make lawes and execute them and let Kings be as it were keepers of Registers But when lawes seeme to clash or are not exact and perspicuous enough in sanctions will you allow the King no interest ormedling here especially since you will have him to judge all things by written lawes there must needs ensue many absurdities And that I may make use of a very common example of that law commended in the Schooles If a Stranger scale a wall let him die What can be more absurd than this that the Author of a publick safety who have thrust down the enemies pressing hard to be up should be drawn to punishment as if he had in hostility attempted to scall the walls B That is nothing M You approve then that old saying the highest justice is the highest injury B. I do indeed If any thing of this kind come into debate there is need of a meek interpreter who may not suffer the lawes which are made for the good of all to be calamitous to good men and deprehended in no crime B. You are very right neither is there any thing else by me fought in all this dispute if you have sufficiently noticed it than that Ciceronian Law might be venerable and inviolable Salus populi suprema Lex esto If then any such thing shall come into debate so that it be clear what is good just the kings duty will be to advert that the Law may reach that rule I spoke of but you in behalf of Kings seems to require more than the most imperious of them assume For you know that this kind of questions is usually deferred to judges when Law seemeth to require one thing and the Lawgiver another even as these lawes which arise from an ambiguous right or from the discord of Lawes amongst themselves Therefore in such cases most grievous contentions of Advocats arise in Judicatories and Orators preceps are diligently produced M. I know that to be done which you say But in this case no less wrong seemes to be done to Lawes than to Kings For I think it better to end that debate presently from the saying of one good man than to grant the power of darkning rather than interpreting Lawes to subtile men and sometimes to crafty Knaves for whilst not only contention ariseth betwixt Advocat for the causes of parties contending but also for glory contests are nourished in the mean time right or wrong equity or iniquity is called in question what we deny to a King we grant to men of inferiour rank who study more to debate than to find out the truth B. You seeme to me forgetfull of what we lately agreed upon M. What is that B. That all things are to be so freely granted to an excellent King as we have described him that there might be no need of any Lawes But whilst this honour is conferred to one of the people who is not much more excellent than others or even inferiour to some that free and loose licence from lawes is dangerous M. But what ill doth that to the interpretation of law B. Very much Perhaps you do not consider that in other words we restore to him that infinit and immoderat power which formerly we denyed to a King namely that according to his own hearts lust he may turn all things upside down M. If I do that then certainly I do it imprudently B. I shall tell you more plainly that you may understand it· When you grant the interpretation of Lawes to a King you grant him such a licence as the Law doth not tell what the Lawgiver meaneth or what is good and equall for all in generall but what may make for the Interpreters benefit
nor doth it only refute what you spoke of the greatness of that power but that also which you most shun it perspicuously declareth what power they granted to others of answering rightly was not denyed to themselves if they had been pleased to exerce that office or could have done it by reason of greater affaires B As for those Roman Emperours whom the Souldiers did choose indeliberatly without any regard to the common good of all These fall not under this notion of Kings which we have described so that by those that were most wicked were they chosen who for the most part were most wicked or else laid hold upon the Government by violence Now I do not reprehend them for granting power to Lawyers to interpret the Law And albeit that power be very great as I have said before it is notwithstanding more safely concredited to them to whom it cannot be an instrument of Tyranny Moreover it was concredited to many whom mutuall reverence did hold within the bounds of duty that if one decline from equity he might be refuted by another And if they should have all agreed together into fraud the help of the judge was above them who was not obliged to hold for Law what ever was given by Lawyers for an answer And over all was the Emperour who might punish the breach of Lawes They beeing astricted by so many bonds were hemmed in and did fear a more grievous punishment than any reward of fraud they could expect you see I suppose then that the danger to be feared from such kind of men was not so great M. Have you no more to say of a King B. First if you please let us collect together what is already spoken so that the more easily we may understand if any thing be omitted M. I think we should do so B. We seemed to be at accord sufficiently concerning the origine cause of creating Kings making Lawes but of the Lawgiver not so but at last though somewhat unwillingly I seeme to have consented being enforced by the strength of truth M. Certainly you have not only taken from a King the power of commanding Lawes but also of interpreting them even whilst I as an Advocat strongly protested against it Wherein I am afraid if the matter come to publick hearing lest I be accused of prevarication for having so easily suffered a good cause as it seemed at first to be wrung out of my hands B. Be of good courage for if any accuse you of prevarication in this case I promise to be your defence M. Perhaps we will find that shortly B. There seems to be many kinds of affaires which can be comprehended within no Lawes whereof we laid over a part on ordinary judges a part on the Kings councill by the Kings consent M. I do remember we did so indeed And when you was doing that wot you what came into my mind B. How can I unless you tell me M. Me thought you made Kings in a manner like stone seals which for the most part so seeme to lean on the tops of pillars as if they did sustain the whole fabrick whereas in effect they bear no more burden than any other stone B. What good Advocat of Kings do you complain that I lay on them a little burden seeing both day and night they do nothing else than seek out others to bear burden with them or upon whom they may altogether lay the burden so disburden themselves And in the mean time you seeme to take it in ill part that I afford them help labouring under their burden M. I also very willingly admit these auxiliaries but such would I have as may serve but not command such as may shew the way but not Lead in the way or more truly draw or rush them forward as some warlike engine and leave a King no other power but to assent to them Therefore I presently expect that having ended our discourse concerning a King you would step aside to speak of Tyrants or some where else For you have inclosed a King within so narrow bounds that I am afraid lest if we tarry longer therein you drive him out of his greatest wealth highest dignity banish him as it were into some desert Island where being spoiled of all his honour he wax old in poverty misery B. You feared as you pretend the crime of prevarication but I am afraid lest in calumniating you wrong the King whom you endeavour to defend First I would not have him to be idle unless you would appoint idle master builders secondly you deprive him of good Ministers friends whom I have adjoyned unto him not as keepers but would have them called by him to bear a part of his labour these being driven away you surround him with a band of Knaves who make him to be feared by his subjects neither do you think he will be formidable unless we allow him a great power of doing wrong I would have him to be by his subjects beloved not to be guarded by the terrour but goodwill of his subjects which armes alone do make Kings invincible unless you gainsay this I trust I shall shortly prove it For I shall lead him out of these you call straits into light by one Law shall give him so much authority and enlargment that if he desire more he may seeme impudent M. Indeed I long to heare that B. I shall then fall upon that matter that I may satisfy your desire as soon as I can A little before we have confessed that no Law can be so accurately cautioned concerning any affair but that malicious subtilty may invent some fraud This perhaps will be the better understood by the example already proposed By the Law it is ordained that no parents transmit their benefices to their bastards Here in effect the Law seemes clear yet a cheat is found out that the father substitute some other man that he may deliver that same benefice to the bastard of the former possessor Thereafter when as it was carefully ordained by Law that the son should by no means enjoy that benefice which his father had possessed before yet by this caution it was never a white the better For against that Law a paction was found out amongst Priests that each of them should substitute the Son of the other in his office And when that was also forbidden the Law was also eluded by another kind of cheat a pretender was set up against the father who might pretend he had a right to that benefice Whilst the father seemingly is a contending with this supposed Sycophant the Son doth petition the Pope for the benefice if so be that the right unto that benefice belong not to either of the parties contending for it and so the son by his fathers prevarication doth enjoy his fathers benefice and over cometh both the parties who willingly freely yeeld up their plea. Thus you soe how many Kinds of
and Spaniards have past so often out of one family into another But I do not know if our Kings have been so wise as Theopompus B. As they have not been so prudent do you imagine that the people were so foolish as to neglect an occasion so opportune put into their hand or that they were so struck with fear or seduced by flatteries as to give themselves over into slavery willingly M. Perhaps it was not But if the people which indeed might be were so blind that they did not see what might concerne their own good or being careless would not see what might be for their benefit so as to contemne it should they not then be justly punished for their folly B. It is not probable that any such thing was done seeing we may see the contrary to be observed even to our dayes For besides that wicked Kings as often as they intended tyranny over their Subjects were alwayes restrained some vestiges 〈◊〉 the ancient customes do yet continue in somâ— ancient familes For the Old Scots even 〈◊〉 our very dayes do choose their heads of clans and having chosen them do give them council of Elders to which councill who soever gives not obedience is deprived 〈◊〉 all honour and dignity What therefore 〈◊〉 with very great care observed in the parts would they be negligent of for the security and safety of all And would they willinglâ— redact themselves into bondage to him whâ—â— was to possess a lawfull Kingdome in steaâ— of some benefit and would they freely givâ— over their liberty acquired by vertue defendâ—ed by armes not interrupted for so many ages to one not expecting it without forceâ— without war For the calamity of John Balâ—oâ— doth shew that that power was never granted to our Kings besides the punishments so often taken for their Maladministration Who about two hundred and sixty years ago was by the nobility rejected because he had subjected himself and his Kingdome to the authority of Edward King of England and Robert the first was substitute in his stead The same doth also shew that perpetual custome continued from the beginning of our Government M. What custome do you speak of B. When our Kings are publickly inaugurat they solemnely promise to all the People that they will observe the Lawes rites and old statutes of their predecessors use the â—ame power which they have received from them that whole order of ceremonies doth shew the first entry of our Kings into every City from all which it may be easily understood what kind of power they did receive from our predecessors to wit none other than that they swear to maintain the Lawes being chosen by suffrages This condition of reigning did God propose to David and his posterity and promiseth they should reigne so long as they should obey the Lawes he had given them those things indeed they do as is probable that our Kings received from our Ancestors a power not immense but within certain limites bounded and limited And further there was the confirmation of a long time and the usurpation of a perpetual right by the people never reprehended by a publick decree M. But I fear it cannot be easily obtained of Kings as being perswaded by that probability to condescend to these Lawes however sworn unto or usurped by the people B. I also believe it is no less hard to perswade the people to pass from the right received from their Ancestors approved by the use of so many ages and practised by one continuall tenour I do not think it needfull to proceed by conjectures what the people is to do since I see what they have done already But if by the obstinat pertinacy of both the business come to armes he that prevaileth will give what Law and right he pleaseth to the vanquished but this will not longer continue than he who is vanquished having again gathered together his forces shall take up Armes again In all which contentions men usually still fight with very great damage of the People but with the utter overthrow of Kings For from this spring do flow all the destructions of all Kingdoms M. It must needs be so B. I have perhaps gone back further than was needfull to the end you might clearly understand what kind of Government there was amongst us of old For if I had reasoned with you according to the rigour of the Law I might have gained my poynt in a far more compendious way M. Albeit you have almost satisfied me already yet I shall willingly hear what that is B. I would then have you first of all to answer me this question Do you not approve the definition of Law set down by Lawyers who say that Law is that which the People knew when demanded by him to whom the prerogative of demanding belongeth M. Indeed I do approve it B. We have agreed that the faults of Lawes being found out they may be amended or abrogat by the Law givers M. We did so B. I suppose you perceive now that such as are borne Kings are by the Lawes and Suffrages of the People created no less than those whom we said were elected â—n the beginning And that in receiving of Lawes there will not be remedies wanting in â—he People who are the Lawgivers not onâ—y against force and fraud but also against neâ—ligence M. I perceive that clearly â— Only here is the difference that the Law â—oncerning our Kings was made severall ages â—efore and when any doth enter into the â—ingdome there useth to be no new Law â—ade but the old Law is approven and â—â—tified But amongst those who have their â—eeting of Estates at the election of every â—ing the Law useth to be made the King â—reated and approved and so to enter into â—s Government M. It is so B. Now if â—ou please let us briefly recapitulat what we â—re at accord in from the very beginning â—o that if ought be rashly approven it may â—e retracted M. I am content B. First â—f all then it seemes that a King is created 〈◊〉 the peoples sake and that nothing more â—xcellent is given us of God than a good King â—nd more pestilentious than a wicked King â— Very right B We have also said that wicked King is called a Tyrant M· We â—â—ve said so B. And because there is not â—â—ch plenty of good men so as to choose those â—ho may prove good Kings nor so great a â—â—ppiness of birth as that good Luck may â—â—fer us those that are good if we have not â—â—ch as we would wish yet we have such as â—ther consent hath approved or chance hath â—â—fered Now the hazard that occureth either in choosing new Kings or in approâ—ving such as are given us by birth was thâ— cause that we desired Lawes which mighâ— modify the Government of Kings Noâ— these Lawes should be nothing else but thâ— express image as far as may be of a gooâ— Prince M. We are at accord in that alsâ— B
of the publick tranquility and their domestick affairs nor could they justly claime any more than to ly lurking under the shadow of what ever Government they were under If that people had attempted to lay hold upon any part of Government they should have been accounted not only foolish but mad Nor should they come out of their lurking holes to breed trouble to those that did hold the helme of publick affaires in hand Immature licentiousnes was also to be repressed an unfit interpreter of Christian liberty What then doth Paul write doubtless new precept no but only these usuall precepts namely that Subjects should obey their Rulers servants their Masters and wives their hus bands nor should we think the Lords yoke how light soever doth liberat us of the bonds of our duty but vvith a more attentive mind than before to be bound thereunto so that we should omit nothing through all the degrees of duties in our relations that might any wayes make for acquiring the favour and goodwill of men And so it should come to pass that the name of God should be well spoken of amongst the Gentiles because of us and the glory of the Gospell more largely propagate For Performing of these things there was need of publick peace the keepers whereof were Princes and Magistrats albeit wicked May it please you that I set before you a manifest representation hereof Imagigine that one of our Doctors doth write to the Christians that live under the Turks to men I say of mean fortune fore dejected in mind weak and few in number and exposed to the injuries of all and every one What else I ask you would he advise them than what Paul did advise the Church that then was at Rome or what Jeremy advised the exiles in Assyria Now this is a most sure argument that Paul had a regard to those mens condition to whom he did write and not to all others because he diligently sets home the mutuall duties of husbands towards thier wives of wives towards thier hus bands of Parents towards thier children and of children towards their parents of servants towards thier Masters and of Masters towards thier servants And albeit he writes what the duty of a Magistrat is yet he doth not give them any particular compellation as he had done in the preceeding relations For which cause we shall judge that he gave no other precepts for Kings and others in Authority especially seeing thier lust was to be much more restrained that of private persons What other cause may we imagine than that at that time there were no Kings or Magistrats in the Church to whom he might write Imagine that Paul doth now live in our dayes wherein not only the people but Princes also Profess Christianity At the same time let there be some Prince who doth conceive that not only should humane Lawes but also divine Lawes be subject to his lust and pleasure and who will have not only his decrees but also his very nods to be accounted for Lawes like that man in the Gospel who neither did feare God nor reverence man who distributes the Church revenues amongst villains and rascals if I may so say and doth mock the sincere worshipers of God and accounts them but fools and mad men or fanaticks what would Paul write of such to the Church If he were like himself he would certainly deny that he should be accounted a Magistrat He would interdict all Christians to have any communion with him either in dyet speech or converse and Leave him to the people to be punished by the Lawes and would think they did nothing but their duty if they should account him not to be their King with whom they were to have no fellowship by the Law of God But there will not be wanting some Court slaves or Sycophants who finding no honest refuge become so impudent as to say that God being angry against a people doth set Tyrants over them whom as hangmen he appoints for punishing them Which to be true I do confess yet it is true that God many times doth stirre up from amongst the lowest of the people some very mean and obscure men to revenge tyrannicall pride and weakness For God as before is said doth command wicked men to be cut-off and doth except neither degree sexe or condition nor yet any man For Kings are not more acceptable to him than beggars Therefore we may truely averre that God being alike the â—â—her of all to whose providence nothing lyes 〈◊〉 and whose power nothing can resist will 〈◊〉 leave any wickedness unpunished Moreâ—â—er another will stand up and ask some â—â—ample out of Scripture of a King punished 〈◊〉 his Subjects which albeit I could not proâ—â—ce yet it will not presently follow that â—ecause we do not read such a thing therein to â—â—ve been done that it should be accounted 〈◊〉 an high crime and malefice I may rehearse â—mongst many Nations very many and sound â—awes whereof in holy write there is no â—xample For as the consent of all Nations â—oth approve that what the Law doth comâ—and is accounted just and what it forbidâ—eth is unjust so since the memory of man 〈◊〉 was never forbidden that what should not â—e contained in Lawes should not at all be â—one For that servitude was never received â—or will the nature of things so fruitfull of new examples suffer the same to be received that whatever is not by some Law commanded or recorded by some famous example should be accounted for a great crime and malefice If therefore any man shall ask of me an example out of the sacred Scriptures wherein the punishment of wicked Kings is approven I shall again ask him where is the same reprehended But if nothing done without some example doth please how many Civil statutes shall we have continued with us how many Lawes for the greatest Part thereof is not taken out of any old example but established against new deceits and that withoâ—â— example But we have already answered thâ—â—se that require examples more than was neeâ—â—full Now if the Jewish Kings were not pâ—â—nished by their Subjects they make not mucâ— for our purpose in hand For they were not first created by the people but were by Goâ— given them And therefore very justly 〈◊〉 who was the Author of that honour was 〈◊〉 punish their misdeeds But we debate thâ—â— the people from whom our Kings enjoy whâ—â—â—ever priviledge they claime is more powâ—â—â—full than their Kings and that the whoâ—â— people have that same priviledge over them which they have over every one in particulaâ— of the whole people All the rights and privâ—â—ledges of forrain nations who live undeâ— Lawfull Kings do make for us all the Nationâ— which are Subject to Kings chosen by themselves do commonly agree herein that whatever priviledge the people hath given to any the same they may require again very justly All commonwealths have still retained thâ—â— priviledge Therefore Lentulus having conâ—spired
purpose in hand nor to stay in explaining or confirming things that are perspicuous and well known M. I think we should do so if you please ask me B. Do you not think that the time hath been when men did dwell in cottages yea and in caves and as strangers did wander to and fro without Lawes or certain dwelling places and did Assemble together as their fond humours did lead them or as some comodity and comon utility did allure them M. for sooth I beleeve that seeing it is consonant to the course and order of nature and is testified by all the histories of all Nations almost for Homer doth describe the representation of such a wilde and barbarous kind of life in Sicily even in the time of the Trojans Their Courts saith he do neither abound with Counciles nor Judges they dwell only in darksome caves and every one of them in high mountains ruleth his own house wife and Children nor is any of them at leisure to communicat his domestick affaires to any other About the same time also Italy is said to be no better civilized as we may easily conjecture from the most fertile regions almost of the whole world how great the solitude and wastness there was in places on this side of Italy B. But whether do you think the vagrant and solitary life or the associations of men civilly incorporat most agreable to nature M. The last without all peradventure which utility the mother almost of justice and equity did first convocat and commanded to give signes or warnings by sound of trumpet and to defend themselves within walls and to shut the gates with one key B. But do you think that utility was the first and main cause of the association of men M. Why not seeing I have heard from the learned that men are born for men B. Uitility indeed to some seems to be very efficacious both in begetting and conserving the publick society of mankind but if I mistake not there is a far more venerable or ancient cause of mens associating and a more antecedaneous sacred bond of their civil community otherwise if every one would have a regard to this own private advantage then surely that very utility would rather dissolve than unite humane society together M. Perhaps that may be true therefore I desire to know what other cause you will assigne B. A certain instinct of nature not only in man but also in the more tamed sort of beasts that although these allurements of utility be not in them yet do they of their own accord flock together with other beasts of their own kind But of these others we have no ground of debate Surely we see this instinct by nature so deeply rooted in man that if any one had the affluence of all things which contribute either for maintaining health or pleasure and delight of the mind yet he will think his life unpleasant without humane converse Yea they who out of a desire of knowledge and an endeavour of investigating the truth have with drawn themselves from the multitude and retired to secret corners could not long endure a perpetual vexation of mind nor if at any time they should remit the same could they live in solitude but very willingly did bring forth to light their very secret studies and as they had laboured for the publick good they did communicat to all the fruit of their â—abour But if there be any man who doth wholly take delight in solitude and flee from converse with men and shun it I judge it doth rather proceed from a distemper of the mind than from any instinct of nature such as we have heard of Timâ—n the Athenian and Bellerophon the Corinthian who as the Poet saith was a wandering wretch on the Elean coast eating his own heart and fleeing the very footsteps of men M. I do not in this much dissent from you but there is one word nature here set down by you which I do often use rather out of custom than that I understand it and is by others so variously taken and accommodat to so many things that for the most part I am at a stand to what I may mainly apply it B. Forsooth at present I would have no other thing to be understood thereby than that LIGHT infused by GOD into our Minds for when God formed that Creature more Sacred and capable of a Celestial Mind and which might have dominion over the other creatures he gave not only eyes to his Body whereby he might evite things contrary to his condition and follow after such as might be usefull but also he produced in his Mind a certain LIGHT whereby he might discerne things filthy from honest this Light some call Nature others the Law of Nature for my own part truly I think it is of a Heavenly stamp and I am fully perswaded that Nature doth never say one thing and Wisdom another Moreover God hâ—th given us aâ— abridgment of that LAW which might contain the whole in few words viz. that We should love Him with all our Soul and our Neighbours as our selves all the books of Holy Scriptur which treat of ordering our conversation do contain nothing else but an explication of this Law M. You think then that no Orator or Lawyer who might congregat dispersed men hath been the Author of humane society but God only B. It is so indeed and with Cicero I think there is nothing done on earth more acceptable to the great God who rules the World than the associations of men legally united which are called Civil Incorporations whose several parts must be as compactly joyned together as the several members of our Body every one must have their proper function to the end there may be a mutual cooperating for the good of the Whole a mutual propelling of injuries and a foreseeing of advantages and these to be communicat for engaging the benevolence of all amongst themselves M. You do not then make utility but that Divine Law rooted in us from the beginning to be the cause indeed the far more worthy and Divine of the two of mens incorporating in Political Societies B. I mean not indeed that to be the Mother of Equity and Justice as some would have it but rather the handmaid and to be one of the Guards in Cities wel constitute M. Herein I also agree with you B. Now as in our Bodies consisting of contrary Elements there are diseases that is perturbations and some intestine tumults even so there must be of necessity in these greater Bodies that is in Cities which also consist of various yea and for the most part contrary humours or sorts of men and these of different ranks conditions and natures and which is more of such as can not remain one hour together approving the same things And surely such must needs soon dissolve and come to nought if one be not adhibited who as a Physician may quiet such disturbances and by a
time hoped for But lest in those I have produced there might be any ground of calumny I have not set before you Kings out of the Schythian solitude who did either ungird their own horses or did other servile work which might be very far from our manner of living but even out of Greece and such who in these very times wherein the Grecians did most flourish in all liberall sciences did rule the greatest nations or wel governed Cities and did so rule that whilst they were alive were in very great esteeme amongst their people and being dead left to posterity a famous memory of them selves M. If now you ask me what my judgment is I scarce dare confess to you either mine inconstancy or timidity or by what other name it shall please you to call that vice For as often as I read these things you have now recited in the most famous Historians or hear the same commended by very wise men whose authority I dare not decline and that they are approved by all good and honest men to be not only true equitable sincere but also seeme strong and splendid Again as oft as I cast mine eyes on the neatness and elegancy of our times that antiquity seemeth to have been venerable and sober but yet rude and not sufficiently polished but of these things we may perhaps speak of hereafter at more leisure Now if it please you go on to prosecute what you have begun B. May it please you then that we recollect briefly what hath been said so shall we understand best what is past and if ought be rashly granted we shall very soon retract it M. Yes indeed B First of all then we agree that men by nature are made to live in society together and for a communion of life M. that is agreed upon B That a King also chosen to maintain that society is a man eminent in vertue M it is so B And as the discords of men amongst themselves brought in the necessity of creating a King so the injuries of Kings done against their Subjects were the cause of desiring lawes M I acknowledge that B we held lawes to be a proofe of the Art of government even as the preceps of Physick are of the medicinal Art M it is so B. But it seems to be more safe because in neither of the two have we set down any singular and exact skill of their severall arts that both do as speedily as may be heal by these prescripts of Art M It is indeed safest B Now the precepts of the Medicinal Art are not of one kind M How B For some of them are for preservation of health others for restauration thereof M. Very right B. What say you of the governing Art M I think there be as many kinds B Next then it seems that we consider it Do yo think that Physicians can so exactly have skill of all diseases and of their remedies as nothing more can be required for their cure M Not at all for many new kinds of diseases arise almost in every age and new remedies for each of them almost every yeer are by mens industry found out or brought from far countries B what think you of the lawes of Commonwealths M Surely their case seemes to be the same B Therefore neither Physicians nor Kings can evite or Cure all diseases of Commonwealths by the precepts of their Arts which are delivered to them in writ M I think indeed they cannot B what if we shall further try of what things lawes may be established in Commonwealths and what cannot be comprehended within lawes M That will be worth our pains B There seems to be very many and weighty things which cannot be contained within lawes First all such things as fall into the deliberation of the time to come M All indeed B next many things already past such are these wherein truth is sought by conjecturs confirmed by witnesses or extorted by torments M Yes indeed B In unfolding then these questions what shal the King do M I see here there is no need of a long discourse seeing Kings do not so arrogat the supream Power in those things which are institute with respect to the time to come that of their own accord they call to councill some of the most prudent B What say you of those things which by conjectures are found out and made out by witnesses such as are the crimes of murther adultery and witchcraft M These are examined by the skill of Lawyers Discovered by diligence and these I find to be for the most part left to the judgment of Judges B And perhaps very right for if a King would needs be at the private causes of each Subject when shal he have time to think upon peace war and those affaires which maintain and preserve the safety of the commonwealth And lastly when shall he get leave to rest M neither would I have the cognition of every thing to be brought unto a King neither can one man be sufficient for all the causes of all men if they be brought unto him that counsel no less wise than necessary doth please me exceeding well which the father in law of Moses gave him in dividing amongst many the burden of hearing causes whereof I shall not speak much seeing the history is known to all B But I think these judges must judge according to law M They must indeed do so But as I conceive there be but few things which by lawes may be provided against in respect of those which cannot be provided against B There is another thing of no less difficulty because all these things which call for lawes cannot be comprehended by certain prescriptions M How so B Lawyers who attribute very much to their own Art and who would be accounted the Priests of justice do confess that there is so great a multitude of affaires that it may seeme almost infinit and say that daily arise new crimes in Cities as it were severall kinds of ulcers what shall a lawgiver do herein who doth accommodat lawes both to things present and preterit M Not much unless he be some divine-like person B An other difficulty doth also occurre and that not a small one that in so great an Inconstancy of humane frailty no Art can alnost prescribe any things altogether stable and firme M There is nothing more true than that B It seemeth then most safe to trust a skilfull physician in the health of the patient and also the Kings in the state of the Common wealth For a Physician without the rule of Art will often times cure a weak patient either consenting thereto or against his will and a king doth either perswade a new law yet usefull to his subjects or else may impose it against their will M I do not see what may hinder him therein B Now seeing both the one and the other do these things do you think that besides the law either of them makes his
so that he may bend it to all actions for his own benefit or advantage as the Lesbian rule Ap. Claudius in his Decemviratus made a very just law that in a liberall cause or Plea sureties should be granted for liberty What more clearly could have been spoken But by interpreting the same Author made his own Law useless You see I suppose how much liberty you give a Prince by one cast namely that what he pleaseth the Law doth say what pleaseth him not it doth not say If we shall once admit this it will be to no purpose to make good Lawes for teaching a good prince his duty and hemme in an ill King Yea let me tell you more plainly it would be better to have no Lawes at all than that freedom to steal should be tolerat and also honoured under pretext of Law M. Do you think that any King will be so impudent that he will not at all have any regard of the fame and opinion that all men have of him Or that he will be so forgetfull of his Subjects that he will degenerat into their Pravity whom he hath restrained by ignominy imprisonment confiscation of goods in a word with very grievous punishments B. Let us not believe that these things will be if they had not been done not long ago that to the exceeding great hurt of the whole world M. Where do you tell these things were done B Do you ask where As if all the Nations in Europe did not only see but feele also how much mischief hath the immoderat power and unbridled Tyranny of the pope of Rome brought upon humane affaires Even that power which from small beginning seemingly honest he had got every man doth know that no less can be feared by unwary persons At first Lawes were proposed to us not only drawn out of the innermost secrets of nature but given by God himself explaind by the Prophets from the holy Spirit at last by the Son of God by the same God confirmed committed to the writings of those praise worthy men expressed in their life sealed with their blood Neither is there in the whole Law any other place more carefully commendably or more clearly delivered than that of the Office of Bishops Now seeing it is Lawfull to no man to add any thing to these Lawes to abrogat or derogat ought therefrom or to change any thing therein there did remain but one interpretation whilst the Pope did arrogat it he not only did oppress the rest of the Churches but claimed a Tyrranny the most cruell of all that ever were daring to command not only men but Angels also plainly reducing Christ into order if this be not to reduce him into order that what thou wilt have done in heaven in earth amongst the damned in hell be ratified what Christ hath commanded let it be ratified if thou wilt for if the Law seeme to make but little for your behoofe interpreting it thus you may back-bend it so that not only by your mouth but also according to the judgment of your mind Christ is constrained to speak Christ therefore speaking by the mouth of the Pope Pipin is set in Childericks place of government Ferdinandus of Arragon substitute to John King of Navarre the Son arose in armes against his father and subjects against their King Christ is full of poison then he is forced by witches so that he killeth Henry of Luxemburg by poison M. I have heard these things often before but I desire to hear more plainly somewhat of that interpretation of lawes B. I shall offer you one example from which you may easily understand how much this whole kind is able to do The Law is A Bishop must be the husband of one wife than which Law what is more clear what may be said more plain One wife saith the Law one Church saith the Pope such is his interpretation As if that Law were made not to repress the Lust of Bishops but their avarice Now this explanation albeit it saith nothing to the purpose yet doth contain a judgment honest and pious if he had not vitiated that Law again by another interpretation What doth therefore the Pope devise for excuse It varieth saith he in regard of persons cases places times Some are of that eminent disposition that no number of Churches can satisfy their pride Some Churches again are so poor that they cannot maintain him who was lately a begging Monk if he now have a mitre if he would maintain the name of a Bishop There is a reason invented from that crafty interpretation of the Law that they may be called Bishops of one Church or other Churches given them in Commendam and all may be robbed Time would faile me if I should reckon up the cheats which are daily excogitat against one Law But albeit these things be most unbeseeming as well the name of a Pope as of a Christian yet their tyranny rests not here For such is the nature of all things that when they once begin to fall they never stay untill they fall headlongs into destruction Will you have me to shew you this by a famous example Do you not remember upon any of the Roman Emperours blood who was more cruell and wicked than C. Caligula M. There was none that I know of B. Now what was his most nefarious villany think you I do not speak of those deeds which Popes do reckon up in some reserved cases but in the rest of his life M. I do not at present remember B. What do you think of that that having called upon his horse he invited him to sup with him Set a golden grain of barley before him and made him Consul M. Indeed it was most impiously done B. What think you of that how he made the same horse his colleague in the Priesthood M. Do you tell me that in good earnest B. Indeed in good earnest nor do I admire that these things seeme to you feigned But that Roman Jupiter of ours hath done such things that those things done by Caligula may seem true to Posterity I say Pope Julius the third who seemes contended with C. Caligula a most wicked wretch for preheminence of impiety M. What did he of that kind B. He made his Ape-keeper a man almost more vile than the vilest beast his Colleague in the Papary M. Perhaps there was another cause of choosing him B. Some are reported indeed but I have picked out the most honest Seeing then so great a contempt not only of the Priesthood but also a forgetfulness of humanity arise from this freedome of interpreting Lawes beware you think that to be a small Power M. But the Ancients seeme not to have thought it so great a business of interpreting as you would have it seeme to be Which by this one argument may be understood because the Roman Emperours granted it to Lawyers which one reason doth overturne your whole tedious dispute
way superior to the person arraigned the inferiour rank must attend and wait on untill the King either please or be at leisure to cognosce concerning the guilty noble man but what if their complaint be not only unjust but also false For no man coming before a judge doth come before an Inferiour person especially seeing so great an honour is by God himself conferred upon the order of Judges that he calleth them not only Kings but also Gods and as much as can be doth communicat to them his own dignity Therefore those Roman Popes who did graciously indulge Kings to kiss their feet who did send for honours sake to such as came to meet them their mules who did tread upon the neeks of Emperours being called to answer in judgment did obey and being compelled by judges renounced their Popedome John the twenty second being from flight brought back was thrust into prison and scarce at last relieved by money and submitted to him that was put into his place and therefore he did approve the sentence of the Judges What did the Synode of Basile did it not appoint and ordain by the common consent of all the members thereof that the Pope is subject to the Councill of Priests Now these fathers were perswaded upon what account they did so which you may find out of the Acts of these Councills Kings then who confess the Majesty of Popes to be so far above them as that it doth overshadow them all with the top of its celsitude I know not how they think therein their dignity to be diminished wherein the Pope did not think he was disparaged to descend from so high athrone namely to stand to the judgment and sentence of the Cardinals hereby you may see how falce their complaint is who disdain to be arraigned at the bar of an Inferiour judge for it is not Titius Sempronius or Stichus that doth in a judiciary way condemne and assoile but the Law to which Kings should yeeld obedience The most famous Emperours Theodosius and Valentinianus accounted honourable I shall here set down their own words because they deserve the memory of all ages It is say they a word well beseeming the Majesty of a King to confess he is a Prince tyed to the Lawes And we declare that it is more to submit a principality to the Lawes than to enjoy an Empire And what we now declare by this our edict we will not suffer to be infringed These things the very best Princes judged right and by Law established and some of the worst see the same For Nero being apparelled in the dress of Harpers is said to have not only observed their carriage and motions but also when it came to be judged who had done best that he stood solicitous betwixt hope and fear for the victory For albeit he knew he would be declared victor yet he thought the victory would be the more honest if he should obtain it not by the flattery of the judges but by due debate and he thought the observation of the Law did contribute not for the diminution of his authority but for the splendor of the victory M Your discourse I perceive is not so insolent as at first I took it when you said you would have Kings obedient to the Lawes for it is not so much founded upon the authority of Philosophers as of Kings Emperours and Councils of the Church M But I do not well understand that you say it is not man but the Law that judgeth B Call to mind what was said a little before did we not say that the voice of the King and of the Law is the same M We did so B What the voice of the Clerk and Herauld is when the Law is published M The very same B But which of the two hath the authority from the other whether the judge from the Law or the Law from the judge M The judge from the Law B The strength of the sentence is then from the Law and the pronunciation of the words of the Law is alone the judges M It seemes so B Yea there is nothing more certain for the the sentences of judges pronounced according to the Law are ratified else they are reseinded M There is nothing more true than that B You see then that the judges authority is from the Law and not the Lawes authority from the judge M I see it is so B The Low and mean condition of him that proclaimeth the Law doth not diminish the dignity thereof but the dignity of the Lawes is still the same whether the King a Judge or an Herauld proclame it M It is so indeed B. The Law then being once established is first the voice of the King and then of others M It is so B Whilst then the King is condemned by a Judge he seemes to be condemned by the Law M That is very clear B If by the Law then he is condemned by his own voice as seemes no less than if it were written with his own hand B Why then do we so much weary our selves concerning a judge seeing we have the Kings own confession that is to say the Law Let us also consider this which is but presently come into my minde When a King in what cause soever doth sit in judgment as a judge should he not lay aside the person of all others and to have no respect to brother Kinsman friend or foe but retain only the person of a judge M He ought so to do B Ought he not to remember that person only whose proper act it is he is about M I would have you tell me that more clearly B Take heed then when any man doth secretly take away another mans goods what do we say he hath done M I think he hath stollen them B How do you call him for this deed M A Thief B How do you say he hath done who makes use of his neighbours wise as him own M We say he hath committed adultery B How shall we call him M An Adulterer B. How do we call him that judgeth M A Judge B. To others also after this manner from the actions they are about names may berightly give M. They may B When a King then is to pass a sentence he is to lay aside all other persons M Indeed he should especially those that may prejudge either of the parties in judging B How do you call him against whom the sentence is past from that act of judgment M We may call him guilty B And is it not equitable that a judge lay aside such persons as may prejudge the sentence M certainly he should if so be such persons be more regarded than the cause yet such persons pertain not to a judge Seeing God will have no respect to be had to the poor in judgment B If then any man who is a painter or a Grammarian debate before a judge concerning the art of painting against a painter he is not a Grammarian for the