and with an honest Mind which you require in others to have spoke plainly what you aimed at rather than prepossess Mens Minds in favour of your Cause by the Impressions of a Name that in truth did not properly belong to it It was not therefore without ground that I said I suspected you built all on this lurking Supposition that the National Religion now in England back'd by the publick Authority of the Law is the only true Religion and therefore no other is to be tolerated which being a Supposition equally unavoidable and equally just in other Countries unless that we can imagine that every-where but in England Men believe what at the same time they think to be a Lie c. Here you erect your Plumes and to this your triumphant Logick gives you not Patience to answer without an Air of Victory in the entrance How Sir is this Supposition equally unavoidable and equally just in other Countries where false Religions are the National for that you must mean or nothing to the purpose Hold Sir you go too fast take your own System with you and you will perceive it will be enough to my purpose if I mean those Religions which you take to be false for if there be any other National Churches which agreeing with the Church of England in what is necessary to Salvation yet have established Ceremonies different from those of the Church of England should not any one who dissented here from the Church of England upon that account as preferring that to our Way of Worship be justly punished If so then Punishment in Matters of Religion being only to bring Men to the true Religion you must suppose him not to be yet of it and so the National Church he approves of not to be of the true Religion And yet is it not equally unavoidable and equally just that that Church should suppose its Religion the only true Religion as it is that yours should do so it agrecing with yours in things necessary to Salvation and having made some things in their own nature indifferent requisite to Conformity for Decency and Order as you have done So that my saying It is equally unavoidable and equally just in other Countries will hold good without meaning what you charge on me that that Supposition is equally unavoidable and equally just where the National Religion is absolutely false But in that large Sense too what I said will hold good and you would have spared your useless Subtilties against it if you had been as willing to take my Meaning and answered my Argument as you were to turn what I said to a Sense which the Words themselves shew I never intended My Argument in short was this That granting Force to be useful to propagate and support Religion yet it would be no Advantage to the true Religion that you a Member of the Church of England supposing yours to be the true Religion should thereby claim a Right to use Force since such a Supposition to those who were Members of other Churches and believed other Religions was equally unavoidable and equally just And the Reason I annexed shews both this to be my Meaning and my Assertion to be true My Words are Unless we can imaginâ—… that every-where but in England Men believe what at the samâ—… time they think to be a Lie Having therefore never said nor thought that it is equally unavoidable or equally just that Men in every Country should believe the National Religion of the Country but that it is equally unavoidable and equally just that Men believing the National Religion of their Country be it true or false should suppose it to be true and let me here add also should endeavour to propagate it you however go on thus to reply If so then I fear it will be equally true too and equally rational for otherwise I see not how it can be equally unavoidable or equally just for if it be not equally true it cannot be equally just and if it be not equally rational it cannot be equally unavoidable But if it be equally true and equally rational then either all Religions are true or none is true for if they be all equally true and one of them be not true then none of them can be true I challenge any one to put these four good Words unavoidable just rational and true more equally together or to make a better-wrought Deduction but after all my Argument will nevertheless be good that it is no Advantage to your Cause for you or any one of it to suppose yours to be the only true Religion since it is equally unavoidable and equally just for any one who believes any other Religion to suppose the same thing And this will always be so till you can shew that Men cannot receive false Religions upon Arguments that appear to them to be good or that having received Falshood under the appearance of Truth they can whilst it so appears do otherwise than value it and be acted by it as if it were true For the Equality that is here in question depends not upon the Truth of the Opinion imbraced but on this that the Light and Perswasion a Man has at present is the Guide which he ought to follow and which in his Judgment of Truth he cannot avoid to be governed by And therefore the terrible Consequences you dilate on in the following part of that Page I leave you for your private Use on some sitter Occasion You therefore who are so apt without cause to complain of want of Ingenuity in others will do well hereafter to consult your own and another time change your Stile and not under the undesined Name of the true Religion because that is of more Advantage to your Argument mean only the Religion established by Law in England shutting out all other Religions now professed in the World Though when you have defined what is the true Religion which you would have supported and propagated by Force and have told us 't is to be found in the Liturgy and thirty nine Articles of the Church of England and it be agreed to you that that is the only true Religion your Argument for Force as necessary to Mens Salvation from the want of Light and Strength enough in the true Religion to prevail against Mens Lusts and the Corruption of their Nature will not hold because your bringing Men by Force your way applied to the true Religion be it what you will is but bringing them to an outward Conformity to the National Church But the bringing them so far and no farther having no opposition to their Lusts no Inconsistency with their corrupt Nature is not on that account at all necessary nor does at all help where only on your grounds you say there is need of the Assistance of Force towards their Salvation CHAP. VIII Of Salvation to be procured by Force your way THere cannot be imagined a more laudable Design than the promoting the Salvation of Mens
Souls by any one who shall undertake it But if it be a Pretence made use of to cover some other By-Interest nothing can be more odious to Men nothing more provoking to the great God of Heaven and Earth nothing more misbecoming the Name and Character of a Christian. With what Intention you took your Pâ—…n in hand to defend and incourage the use of Force in the business of Mens Salvation 't is sit in Charity we take your Word but what your Scheme as you have delivered it is guilty of 't is my business to take notice of and represent to you To my saying that if Persecution as is pretended were for the Salvation of Mens Souls bare Conformity would not serve the turn but Men would be examined whether they do it upon Reason and Conviction You answer Who they be that pretend that Persecution is for the Salvation of Mens Souls you know not Whatever you know not I know one who in the Letter under consideration pleads for Force as useful for the promoting the Salvation of Mens Souls and that the use of Force is no other Means for the Salvation of Mens Souls than what the Author and Finisher of our Faith has directed That so far is the Magistrate when he gives his helping Hand to the furtherance of the Gospel by laying convenient Penalties upon such as reject it or any part of it from using any other Means for the Salvation of Mens Souls than what the Author and Finisher of our Faith has directed that he does no more than his Duty for promoting the Salvation of Souls And as the Means by which Men may be brought into the Way of Salvation Ay but where do you say that Persecution is for the Salvation of Souls I thought you had been arguing against my Meaning and against the things I say and not against my Words in your Meaning which is not against me That I used the word Persecution for what you call Force and Penalties you knew for in pag. 21. that immediately precedes this you take notice of it with some little kind of Wonder in these Words Persecution so it seems you call all Punishments for Religion That I do so then whether properly or improperly you could not be ignorant and then I beseech you apply your Answer here to what I say My Words are ` Iâ—… Persecution as is pretended were for the Salvation of Mens Souls Men that conform would be examined whether `they did so upon Reason and Conviction Change my word Persecution into Punishment for Religion and then consider the Truth or Ingenuity of your Answer for in that sense of the word Persecution do you know no body that pretends Persecution is for the Salvation of Mens Souls So much for your Ingenuity and the Arts you allow your self to serve a good Cause What do you think of one of my Pagans or Mahometans Could he have done better For I shall often have occasion to mind you of them Now to your Argument I said That I thought those who make Laws and use Force to bring Men to Church-Conformity in Religion seek only the Compliance but concern themselves not for the Conviction of those they punish and so never use Force to convince For pray tell me When any Dissenter conforms and enters into the Church-Communion is he ever examined to see whether he does it upon Reason and Conviction and such Grounds as would become a Christian concerned for Religion If Persecution as iâ—… prâ—…tended were for the Salvation of Mens Souls this would be done and Men not driven to take the Sacrament to keep their Places or obtain Licences to sâ—…ll Ale for so low have these holy things been prostituted To this you here reply As to those Magistrates who having provided sufficiently for the Instruction of all under their Care in the true Religion do make Laws and use moderate Penalties to bring Men to the Communion of the Church of God and Conformity to the Rules and Orders of it I think their Behaviour does plainly enough speak them to seek and concern themselves for the Conviction of those whâ—…m they punish and for their Compliance only as the Fruit of their Conviction If Means of Instruction were all that is necessary to convince People the providing sufficiently for Instruction would be an Evidence that those that did so did seek and concern themselves for Mens Conviction but if there be something as necessary for Conviction as the Means of Instruction and without which those Means will signify nothing and that be severe and impartial Examination and if Force be as you say so necessary to make Men thus examine that they can by no other way but Force be brought to do it If Magistrates do not lay their Penalties on Non-examination as well as provide Means of Instruction whatever you may say you think few People will sind reason to believe you think those Magistrates seek and concern themselves much for the Conviction of those they punish when that Punishment is not levell'd at that which is a hindrance to their Conviction i. e. against their Aversion to severe and impartial Examination To that Aversion no Punishment can be pretended to be a Remedy which does not reach and combat the Aversion which ' 〈◊〉 plain no Punishment does which may be avoided without parting with or abating the Prevalency of that Aversion This is the Case where Men undergo Punishments for not conforming which they may be rid of without 〈◊〉 and impartially examining Matters of Religion To shew that what I mentioned was no Sign of Unconcernedness in the Magistrate for Mens Conviction You add Nor does the contrary appear from the not examining Dissenters when they conform tâ—… see whether they do it upon Reason and Conviction For where sufficient Instruction is provided it is ordinarily presumable that when Dissenters conform they do it upon Reason and Conviction Here if ordinarily signifies any thing for it is a Word you make much use of whether to express or cover your Sense let the Reader judg then you suppose there are Cases wherein it is not presumable and I aâ—…k you whether in those or any Cases it be examin'd whether Dissenters when they conform do it upon Reason and Conviction At best that it is ordinarily prâ—…sumable is but graâ—…is dictum especially since you suppose that it is the Corruption of their Nature that hinders them from considering as they ought so as upon Reason and. Conviction to imbrace the Truth Which Corruption of Nature that they may retain with Conformity I think is very presumable But be that as it will this I am fure is ordinarily and always presumable that if those who use Force were as intent upon Mens Conviction as they are on their Conformity they would not wholly content themselves with the one without ever examining and looking into the other Another Excuse you make for this Neglect is That as to irreligious
shall only advise you not to be so severe hereafter in your Censure of Mr. Reynolds as you are where you tell me that the famous Instance I give of the two Reynolds's is not of any moment to prove the contrary unless I can undertake that he that erred was as sincere in his Enquiry after that Truth as I suppose him able to examine and judg You will I suppose be more charitable another time when you have consider'd that neither Sincerity nor Freedom from Error even in the establish'd Doctrines of their own Church is the Privilege of those who join themselves in outward Profession to any National Church whatsoever And it is not impossible that one who has subscribed the 39 Articles may yet make it a Question Whether it may bâ—… truly said that God imputes the first Sin of Adam to his Posterity c. But we are apt to be so fond of our own Opinions and almost Infallibility that we will not allow them to be sincere who quit our Communion whilst at the same time we tell the World it is presumable that all who imbrace it do it sincerely and upon Conviction though we cannot but know many of them to be but loose inconsiderate and ignorant People This is all the reason you have when you speak of the Reynolds's to suspect one of the Brothers more than the other And to think that Mr. Chillingworth had not as much Sincerity when he quitted as when he return'd to the Church of England is a Partiality which nothing can justify without pretending to Infallibility To shew that you do not fancy your Force to be useful but that you judg so upon just and sufficient Grounds you tell us the strong probability of its Success is grounded upon the Consideration of humane Nature and the general Temper of Mankind apt to be â—…rought upon by the Method you speak of and upon the indisputable Attâ—…station of Experience The Consideration of humane Nature and the general Temper of Mankind will teach one this that Men are apt in things within their power to be wrought upon by Force and the more wrought upon the greater the Force or Punishments are So that where moderate Penalties will not work great Severities will Which Consideration of humane Nature if it be a just Ground to judg any Force useful will I fear necessarily carry you in your Judgment to Severities beyond the moderate Penalties so often mention'd in your System upon a strong Probability of the Success of greater punishment where less would not prevail But if to consider so as you require i. e. so as to imbrace and believe be not in their Power then no Force at all great or little is or can be useful You must therefore consider it which way you will either renounce all Force as useful or pull off your Mask and own all the Severities of the cruellest Perseentors The other Reason of your iudging Force to be useful you say is grounded on the indisputable Attâ—…station of Experience Pray tell us where you have this Attestation of Experience for your moderate which is the only useful Force Name the Country where True Religion or Sound Christianity has been Nationally receiv'd and establish'd by moderate Penal Laws that the observing Persons you appeal to may know where to imploy their Observation Tell us how long it was tâ—…ied and what was the Suâ—…cess of it And where there has been the Relaxation of such moderate Penal Laws the fruits whereof have continually bâ—…en Epicurism and Atheism Till you do this I fear that all the World will think there is a more indisputable Attestation of Experience for the Success of Dragooning and the Severities you condemn than of your moderate Method which we shall compare with the King of France's and see which is most successful in making Proselytes to Church-Conformity for yours as well as his reach no farther than that when you produce your Examples the consident Talk whereof is good to countâ—…nce a Cause though Experience there be none in the case But you appeal you say to all observing Persons Whether where-euer True Religion or Sound Christianity have been Nationally receiv'd and 〈◊〉 by moderate Penal Laws it has not always visibly lost ground by the Relaxation of those Laws True or False Religions Sound or Unsound Christianity where-ever establish'd into National Religions by Penal Laws always have lost and always will lose ground i. e. lose several of their Confoâ—…ming Professors upon the Relaxation of those Laws But this concerns not the True more than other Religions nor is any Prejudice to it but only shews that many are by the Penalties of the Law kept in the Communion of the National Religion who are not really convinced or perswaded of it and therefore as soon as Liberty is given they own the dislike they had many of them before and out of Perswasion Curiosity c. seek out and betâ—…ke themselves to some other Profession This need not startle the Magistrates of any Religion much less those of the True since they will be sure to retain those who more mind their secular Interest than the Truth of Religion who are every-where the greater number by the advantages of Countenance and Pâ—…ferment and if it be the True Religion they will retain those also who are in earnest of it by the stronger tie of Coâ—…science and Conviction You go on Whether Sects and Hercsies even the wildest and most absurd and even Epicurism and Atheism have not continually thereupon spread themselves and whether the very Life of Christianity has not sensibly decay'd as well as the Number of sound Prosessors of it been daily lessen'd upon it As to Atheism and Epicurism whether they more spread under Toleration or National Religions establish'd by moderate Penal Laws when you shew us the Countries where fair trial hath been made of both that we may compare them together we shall better be able to judg Epicurism and Atheism say you are found constantly to spread themselves upon the Relaxation of moderate Penal Laws We will suppose your History to be full of Instances of such Relaxations which you will in good time communicate to the World that wants this Assistance from your Observation But were this to be justified out of History yet would it not be any Argument against Toleration unless your History can furnish you with a new sort of Religion founded in Atheism However you do well to charge the spreading of Atheism upon Toleration in Matters of Religion as an Argument against those who deny Atheism which takes away all Religion to have any Right to Toleration at all But perhaps as is usual for those who think all the World should see with their Eyes and receive their Systems for unquestionable Verities Zeal for your own way makes you call all Atheism that agrees not with it That which makes me doubt of this are these following words Not to speak of what at this time
to be necessary Means will not be allow'd by you to be pertinent in a debate about necessary Means when possibly those very Neglects may serve to make other Means seem requisite which really are not so Yet if you are not of those who will never think any such Discourse pertinent you will allow me to mind you of it again as not impertinent in answer to your last Letter wherein you so often tell us of the sufficient Provision made for Instruction For wherever the Neglect be it can â—…arce be said there is sufficient Provision made for Instruction in a Christian Country where great numbers of those who are in the Communion of the National Church are grosly ignorant of the Grounds of the Christian Religion And I ask you whether it be in respect of such Conformists you say as you do in the same Paragraph That when the best Provision is made that can be for the Instruction of the People you fear a great part of them will still need some moderate Penalties to bring them to hear and receive Instruction But what if all the means that can be not used for their Instruction That there are Neglects of this kind you will I suppose take the word of a Reverend Prelate of our Church who thought he could not better shew his Good-will to the Clergy than by a seasonable Discourse of the Pastoral Care to câ—…re that Neglect for the future There he tells you that Ministers should watch over and seed their Flock and not enjoy their Benesices as Farms c. Which Reproach says he whatever We may be our Church is free of which he proves by the Stipulation and Covenant they make with Christ that they will never cease their Labour Care and Diligence till they have done all that lieth in them according to their bounden Duty towards all such as are or should be committed to their Care to bring them to a Ripeness of age in Christ. And a Page or two after having repeated part of the Promise made by those who take Orders he adds In this is expressed the so much NEGLECTED but so necessary Duty which Incumbents owe their Flock in a private way visiting instracting and admonishing which is one of the most useful and important Parts of their Duty how generally socuer it may be disused or forgetten P. 187. He says Every Priest that minds his Duty will find that no Part of it is so useful as Catechistical Discourses by means whereof his People will understand all his Sermons the better when they have once had a clear Notion of all those Terms that must run through them for those not being understood renders them all unintelligible Another Part of the Priest's Duty he tells you is with relation to them that are without who are of the side of the Church of Rome or among the Dissenters Other Churches and Bodies are noted for their Zâ—…al in making Proselytes for their 〈◊〉 Endeavours as well as their unlawful Methods in it They reckoning perhaps that all will be 〈◊〉 by the increasing their PARTY which is the true Name of making Converts except they become at the same time good Men as well as Votaries to a Side or Cause We are certainly very REMISS in this of both hands Little pains is taken to gain either upon Papists or Nonconformists The LAW HAS BEEN SO MUCH TRUSTED TO that that Method only was thought sure it was much valued and others at the same time as much NEGLECTED And whereas at first WITHOUT FORCE OR VIOLENCE in forty Years time Popery from being the prevailing Religion was reduced to a bandful we have now in above twice that number of Years made very little Progress c. Perhaps here again you will tell me you do not see how this is pertinent to the present Question Which that you may see give me leave to put you in mind that neither you nor any body else can pretend Force necessary till all the Means of Perswasion have been used and nothing neglâ—…ted that can be done by all the softer Ways of Application And since it is your own Doctrine that Force is not lawful unless where it iâ—… necessary the Magistrate upon your Principles can neither lawfully use Force nor the Ministers of any National Church plead for it any where but where they themselves have first done their Duties A Draught whereof aâ—…apted to our present Circumstances we have in the newly publish'd Discours of the Pastoral Care And he that shall press the use of Force as necessary before he can answer it to himself and the World that those who have taken on them the care of Souls have performed their Duties were best consider whether he does not draw up an Accusation against the Men of that Holy Order or against the Magistrate who suffers them to neglect any part of their Duty For whilst what that Learned Bishop in the Passages above cited and in other places mentions is neglected it cannot be said that no other Means but Force is lest Those which are on all hands acknowledg necessary and useful Means not having yet been made use of To vindicate your Method from Novelty you tell me 't is as old as St. Austin Whatever he says in the place you quote it shews only his Opinion but not that it was ever used Therefore to shew it not to be new in practice you add that yon think it has been made use of by all those Magistrates who having made all requisite Provisions for the instructing their People in the Truth have likewise requir'd them under convenient Penalties to imbrace it Which is as much as to say that those Magistrates who used your Method did use your Method And that certainly you may think safely and without fear of being gainsaid But now I will tell you what I think in my turn And that is if you could have found any Magistrates who had made use of your Method as well as you think you have found a Divine that approves of it you would have named those Magistrates as forwardly as you do St. Austin If I think amiss pray correct me yet and name them That which makes me imagine you will hardly find any Examples of it is what I there said in these Words All other Law-makers have constantly taken this Method that where any thing was to be amended the Fault was first declared and then Penalties denounced against all those who after a time set should be found guilty of it This the common Sense of Mankind and the very Reason of Laws which are intended not for Punishment but Correction has made so plain that the subtilest and most refined Law-makers have not gone out of this Course nor have the most ignorant and barbarous Nations mist it But you have out-done Solon and Lycurgus Moses and our Saviour and are resolved to be a Law-maker of a Way by your self 'T is an old and obsolete Way and will not serve
time of War agaiâ—…t 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Enemies without any municipal Laws Judges 〈◊〉 â—…ny â—…rson with Superiority establishâ—…d amongst them but 〈◊〉 all their private Differences if any aâ—…ose by the extempory Determination of their Neighbours or of Arbitrators 〈◊〉 by the Partieâ—… I ask you whether in such a Commonwealth the Chiestain who was the only Man of Authority amongst them had any Power to use the Force of the Commonwealth to any other End but the Defence of it against an Enemy though other Benefits were attainable by it The Paragraph of mine to which you mean your next for an Answer shall answer for it self L. 2. p. 56. You quote the Author's Argument which he brings to prove that the Care of Souls is not committed to the Magistrate in these Words It is not committed to him by God because it appears not God has ever given any such Authority to one Man over another as to compel any one to his Religion This when first I read it I confess I thought a good Argument But you say this is quite besides the business and the Reason you give is For the Authority of the Magistrate is not an Authority to compel any one to his Religion but only an Authority to procure all his Subjects the means of discovering the way of Salvation and to prâ—…cure withal as much as in him lies that 〈◊〉 â—…emain ignorant of it c. I fâ—…r Sir you forget your self The Author was not writing against your new Hypothesis before it was known in the World He may be excused if he had not the Gift of Prophecy to argue against a Notion which was not yet started He had in view only the Laws hitherto made and the Punishments in Matters of Religion in use in the World The Penalties as I take it are laid on Men for being of different Ways of Religion which what is it other but to compel them to relinquish their own and to conform themselves to that from which they differ If this be not to compel them to the Magistrate's Religion pray tell us what is This must be necessarily so understood unless it can be supposed that the Law intends not to have that done which with Penalties it commands to be done or that Punishments are not Compulsion not that Compulsion the Author complains of The Law says Do this and live embrace this Doctrine conform to this way of Worship and be at ease and free or else be fined imprisoned banished burnt If you can shew among the Laws that have been made in England concerning Religion and I think I may say any where else any one that punishes Men for not having impartially examined the Religion they have embraced or refused I think I may yield you the Cause Law-makers have been generally wiser than to make Laws that could not be executed and therefore their Laws were against Nonconformists which could be known and not for impartial Examination which could not 'T was not then besides the Author's Business to bring an Argument against the Persecutions here in fashion He did not know that any one who was so free as to acknowledg that the Magistrate has not an Authority to compel any one to his Religion and thereby at once as you have done give up all the Laws now in force against Dissenters had yet Rods in store for them and by a new Trick would bring them under the lash of the Law when the old Pretences were too much exploded to serve any longer Have you never heard of such a thing as the Religion establish'd by Law which is it seems the Lawful Religion of a Country and to be complied with as such There being such Things such Notions yet in the World it was not quite besides the Author's business to alledg that God never gave such Authority to one Man over another as to compel any one to his Religion I will grant if you please Religion establish'd by Law is a pretty odd way of speaking in the Mouth of a Christian and yet it is much in fashion as if the Magistrate's Authority could add any Force or Sanction to any Religion whether true or false I am glad to find you have so far considered the Magistrate's Authority that you agree with the Author that he hath none to compel Men to his Religion Much less can he by any Establishment of Law add any thing to the Truth or Validity of his own or any Religion whatsoever That above-annexed is all the Answer you think this Paragraph of mine deserves But yet in that little you say you must give me leave to take notice that if as you say the Magistrate's Authority may do much towards the upholding and preserving the true Religion within his Jurisdiction so also may it do much towards the upholding and preserving of a false Religion and in that respect if you say true may be said to establish it For I think I need not mind you here again that it must unavoidably depend upon his Opinion what shall be established for true or rejected as false And thus you have my Thoughts concerning the most material of what you say touching the Magistrate's Commission to use Force in Matters of Religion together with some incident Places in your Answer which I have taken notice of as they have come in my way CHAP. III. Who are to be punished by your Scheme TO justify the largeness of the Author's Toleration who would not have Jews Mahometans and Pagans excluded from the Civil Rights of the Commonwealth because of their Religion I said I feared it will hardly be believed that we pray in earnest for their Conversion if we exclude them from the ordinary and probable Means of it either by driving them from us or persecuting them when they are among us You reply Now I confess I thought Men might live quietly enough among us and enjoy the Protection of the Government against all Violence and Injuries without being endenizon'd or made Members of the Commonwealth which alone can entitle them to the Civil Rights and Privileges of it But as to Jews Mahometans and Pagans if any of them do not care to live among us unless they may be admitted to the Rights and Privileges of the Common-wealth the refusing them that Favour is not I suppose to be looked upon as driving them from us or excluding them from the ordinary and probable Means of Conversion but as a just and necessary Caution in a Christian Commonwealth in respect to the Members of it Who if such as profess Judaism or Mahometanism or Paganism were permitted to enjoy the same Rights with them would be much the more in danger to be seduced by them seeing they would lose no worldly Advantage by such a Change of their Religion Whereas if they could not turn to any of those Religions without forfeiting the Civil Rights of the Commonwealth by doing it 't is likely they would consider well before they did it what ground
external Communion In this lording it over the Heritage of God and thus overseeing by Imposition on the unwilling and not consenting which seems to be the meaning of St. Peter most of the lasting Sects which so mangle Christianity had their Original and continue to have their Support and were it not for these establish'd Sects under the specious Names of National Churches which by their contracted and arbitrary Limits of Communion justify against themselves the Separation and like Narrowness of others the Difference of Opinions which do not so much begin to be as to appear and be owned under Toleration would either make no Sect nor Division or else if they were so extravagant as to be opposite to what is necessary to Salvation and so necessitate a Separation the clear Light of the Gospel joined with a strict Discipline of Manners would quickly chase them out of the World But whilst needless Impositions and moot Points in Divinity are established by the Penal Laws of Kingdoms and the specious Pretences of Authority what Hopes is there that there should be such an Union amongst Christians any where as might invite a rational Turk or Infidel to imbrace a Religion whereof he is told they have a Revelation from God which yet in some Places he is not suffered to read and in no Place shall he be permitted to understand for himself or to follow according to the best of his Understanding when it shall at all thwart though in things confessed not necessary to Salvation any of those select Points of Doctrine Discipline or outward Worship whereof the National Church has been pleased to make up its Articles Polity and Ceremonies And I ask what a sober sensible Heathen must think of the Divisions amongst Christians not owing to Toleration if he should find in an Island where Christianity seems to be in its greatest Purity the South and North Parts establishing Churches upon the Differences of only whether fewer or more thus and thus chosen should govern tho the Revelation they both pretend be their Rule say nothing directly one way or â—…other each contending with so much Eagerness that they deny each other to be Churches of Christ that is in effect to be true Christians To which if one should add Transubstantiation Consubstantiation Real Presence Articles and Distinctions set up by Men without Authority from Scripture and other less Differences which good Christians may dissent about without endangering their Salvations established by Law in the several Parts of Christendom I ask Whether the Magistrates interposing in Matters of Religion and establishing National Churches by the Force and Penalties of Civil Laws with their distinct and at home reputed necessary Confessions and Ceremonies do not by Law and Power authorize and perpetuate Sects among Christians to the great Prejudice of Christianity and Scandal to Insidels more than any thing that can arise from a mutual Toleration with Charity and a good Life Those who have so much in their Mouths the Authors of Sects and Divisions with so little advantage to their Cause I shall desire to consider whether National Churches established as now they are are not as much Sects and Divisions in Christianity as smaller Collections under the name of distinct Churches are in respect of the National only with this difference that these Subdivisions and discountenanced Sects wanting Power to enforce their peculiar Doctrines and Discipline usually live more friendly like Christians and seem only to demand Christian Liberty whereby there is less appearance of Unchristian Division among them Whereas those National Sects being back'd by the Civil Power which they never fail to make use of at least as a pretence of Authority over their Brethren usually breath out nothing but Force and Persecution to the great Reproach Shame and Dishonour of the Christian Religion I said That if the Magistrates would severely and impartially set themselves against Vice in whomsoever it is found and leave Men to their own Consciences in their Articles of Faith and Ways of Worship true Religion would spread wider and be more fruitful in the Lives of its Professors than ever hitherto it has done by the imposing of Creeds and Ceremonies Here I call only Immorality of Manners Vice you on the contrary in your Answer give the Name of Vice to Errors in Opinion and Difference in Ways of Worship from the National Church for this is the Matter in question between us express it as you please This being a Contest only about the signification of a short Syllable in the English Tongue we must leave to the Masters of that Language to judg which of these two is the proper use of it But yet from my using the word Vice you conclude presently taking it in your Sense not mine that the Magistrate has a Power in England for England we are speaking of to punish Dissenters from the National Religion because it is a Vice I will if you please in what I said change the word Vice into that I meant by it and say thus If the Magistrates will severely and impartially set themselves against the Dishonesty and Debauchery of Mens Lives and such Immoralities as I contra-distinguish from Errors in speculative Opinions of Religion and Ways of Worship and then pray see how your Answer will look for thus it runs It seems then with you the rejecting the true Religion and refusing to worship God in decent Ways prescribed by those to whom God has left the ordering of those Matters are not comprehended in the name Vice But you tell me If I except these things and will not allow them to be called by the name of Vice perhaps other Men may think it as reasonable to except some other things i. e. from being called Vices which they have a kindness for For instance some may perhaps except arbitrary Divorce Polygamy Concubinage simple Fornication or Marrying within Degrees thought forbidden Let them except these and if you will Drunkenness Theft and Murder too from the name of Vice nay call them Vertues Will they by their calling them so be exempt from the Magistrate's Power of punishing them Or can they claim an Impunity by what I have said Will these Immoralities by the Names any one shall give or forbear to give to them become Articles of Faith or Ways of Worship Which is all as I expresly say in the Words you here cite of mine that I would have the Magistrates leave Men to their own Consciences in But Sir you have for me Liberty of Conscience to use Words in what sense you please only I think where another is concerned it favours more of Ingenuity and love of Truth rather to mind the Sense of him that speaks than to make a dust and noise with a mistaken Word if any such Advantage were given you You say That some Men would through Carelesness never acquaint themselves with the Truth which must save them without being forced to do it which you suppose may
be very true notwithstanding that as I say some are called at the third Hour some at the ninth and some at the eleventh Hour and whenever they are called they embrace all the Truths necessary to Salvation At least I do not shew why it may not And therefore this may be no Slip for any thing I have said to prove it to be one This I take not to be an Answer to my Argument which was That since some are not called till the eleventh Hour no body can know who those are who would never acquaint themselves with those Truths that must save them without Force which is therefore necessary and may indirectly and at a distance do them some service Whether that was my Argument or no I leave the Readâ—…r to judg but that you may not mistake it now again I tell you here it is so and needs another Answer Your way of using Punishments in short is this That all that conform not to the National Church where it is true as in England should be punished What for To make them consider This I told you had something of Impracticable To which you reply That you used the word only in another Sense which I mistook Whether I mistook your meaning in the use of that Word or no or whether it was natural so to take it or whether that Opinion which I charged on you by that Mistake when you tell us That not examining is indeed the next end for which they are punished be not your Opinion let us leave to the Reader for when you have that Word in what sâ—…nse you please what I said will be nevertheless true viz. ` That to punish Dissenters as Dissenters to make them consider has something impracticable in it unless not to be of the National ` Religion and not to consider be the same thing These Words you answer nothing to having as you thought a great advantage of talking about my mistake of your word only Buâ—… unless you will suppose not to be of the National Church and not to consider be the same thing it will follow thâ—…t to punish Dissenters as Dissenters to make them consider has something of Impracticable in it The Law punishes all Dissenters For what To make them all conform that 's evident To what end To make them all consider say you That cannot be for it says nothing of it nor is it certain that all Dissenters have not considered nor is there any care taken by the Law to enquire whether they have considered when they do conform yet this was the End intended by the Magistrate So then with you it is practicable and allowable in making Laws for the Legislator to lay Punishments by Law on Men for an End which they may be ignorant of for he says nothing of it on Men whom he never takes care to enquire whether they have done it or no before he relax the Punishment which had no other next End but to make them do it But though he says nothing of considering in laying on the Penalties nor asks any thing about it when he takes them off yet every body must understand that he so meant it Sir Sancho Pancha in the Government of his Island did not expect that Men should understand his meaning by his gaping but in another Island it seems if you had the Management you would not think it to have any thing of Impracticable or Impolitick in it For how far the provision of Means of Instruction takes this off we shall see in another place And lastly to lay Punishments on Men for an End which is already attained for some among the Dissenters may have considered is what other Law-makers look on as impracticable or at least unjust But to this you answer in your usual way of Circle That if I suppose you are for punishing Dissenters whether they consider or no I am in a great mistake for the Dissenters which is my Word not yours whom you are for punishing are only such as reject the true Religion proposed to them with Reasons and Arguments sufficient to convince them of the Truth of it who therefore can never be supposed to consider those Reasons and Arguments as they ought whilst they persist in rejecting that Religion or in my Language continue Dissenters for if they did so consider them they would not continue Dissenters Of the Fault for which Men were to be punished distinguished from the End for which they were to be punished we heard nothing as I remember in the first Draught of your Scheme which we had in The Argument considered c. But I doubt not but in some of your general Terms you will be able to find it or what else you please for now having spoken out that Men who are of a different Religion from the true which has been tendred them with sufficient Evidence and who are they whom the wise and benign Disposer and Governour of all things has not furnished with competent Means of Salvation are Criminals and are by the Magistrate to be punished as such 't is necessary your Scheme should be compleated and whither that will carry you 't is easy to see But pray Sir are there no Conformists that so reject the â—…ue Religion and would you have them punished too as you here profess Make that practicable by your Scheme and you have done something to perswade us that your End in earnest in the Use of Force is to make Men consider understand and be of the True Religion and that the rejecting the true Religion tender'd with sufficient Evidence is the Crime which bonâ fide you would have punished and till you do this all that you may say concerning punishing Men to make them consider as they ought to make them receive the true Religion to make them imbrace the Truth that must save them c. will with all sober judicious and unbiassed Readers pass only for the Mark of great Zeal if it scape amongst Men as warm and as sagacious as you are a harsher Name whilst those Conformists who neglect Matters of Religion who reject the saving Truths of the Gospel as visibly and as certainly as any Dissenters have yet no Penalties laid upon them You talk much of considering and not considering as one ought of imbracing and rejecting the true Religion and abundance more to this purpose which all however very good and savoury Words that look very well when you come to the Application of Force to procure that End expressed in them amount to no more but Conformity and Non-conformity If you see not this I pity you for I would fain think you a fair Man who means well though you have not light upon the right way to the End you propose But if you see it and persist in your Use of these good Expressions to lead Men into a Mistake in this Matter consider what my Pagans and Mahometans could do worse to serve a bad Cause Whatever you may
imbrace the Truth you have gain'd your Point and overthrown Toleration by the usefulness and necessity there is of Force For without being forced these two Men would never have considered Which is more yet than you know unless you are of his private Council who only can tell when the Season of Grace is past and the time come that Preaching Intreaty Instruction and Perswasion shall never after prevail upon a Man But whatever you are here concerned to make good are you not also concerned to remember what you say where declaring against the Magistrates having a power to use what may any way at any time upon any Person by any Accident be useful towards the promoting the true Religion you say Who sees not that however such means might chance to hit right in some few Cases yet upon the whole matter they would certainly do a great deal more harm than good And in all Pleas making use of my Words for any thing because of its usefulness it is not enough to say that it may be serviceable but it must be considered not only what it may but what it is likely to produce and the greater good or harm like to come from it ought to determine the use of it You proceed and tell me That I not content to say that Force your way applied i. e. to bring Men to imbrace the Truth which must save them may be serviceable to bring Men to imbrace Falshood which will destroy them and so is proper to do as much harm as good which seems strange enough I add to increase the Wonder that in your indirect way it is much more proper and likely to make Men receive and embrace Error than the Truth And that 1. Because Men out of the right Way are as apt and I think I may say apter to use Force than others Which is doubtless an irrefragable demonstration that Force used by the Magistrate to bring Men to receive and imbrace the Truth which must save them is much more proper and likely to make Men receive Error than the Truth And then you ask me How we come to talk here of what Men out of the right way are apt to do to bring others into their i. e. a wrong way where we are only inquiring what may be done to bring Men to the right way For you must put me in Mind you say that that is our question viz. Whether the Magistrate has any right to use Force to bring Men to the true Religion Whether the Magistrate has aright to use Force in matters of Religion as you more truly state it P. 78. is the main Question between us I confess But the Question here between us is about the usefulness of Force your way apply'd which being to punish Dissenters as Dissenters to make them consider I shew'd would do more harm than good And to this you were here answering Whereby I suppose it is plain that the Question here is about the Usefulness of Force so apply'd And I doubt not but my Readers who are not concerned when the Question in debate will not serve your turn to have another substituted will take this for a regular and natural way of Arguing viz. ` That Force your way apply'd is more proper and likely to make Men imbrace Error than the Truth because Men out of the right Way are as apt I think I may say ` apter to use Force than others You need not then ask as you do How we come to talk here of Men out of the right Way You see how If you do not I know not what help there is for your Eyes And I must content my self that any other Reader that has Eyes will not miss it And I wonder that you should since you know I have on several Occasions argued against the Use of Force in Matters of Religion upon a Supposition that if any one then all Magistrates have a just Pretence and Right to use it which has served you in some Places for Matter of great Reproof and in others of Sport and Diversion But because so plain a thing as that was so strange to you that you thought it a ridiculous Paradox to say That for all Magistrates to suppose the Religion they believed to be true was equally just and reasonable And because you took no notice of the Words adjoin'd that proved it viz. Unless we can imagine every where but in England or where the National Religion is the true Men believe what at the same time they think to be a Lie I have taken the pains to prove it to you more at large in another place and therefore shall make bold to use it here as an Argument against Force viz. That if it have any Efficacy it will do more harm than good Because Men out of the right Way are as apt or apter to use it And I shall think it a good one till you have answered it It is a good and a sure way and shews a Zeal to the Cause still to hold fast the Conclusion and whatever be in debate return still to one ' old Position I arguing against what you say for the Use of Force viz. That Force used not to convince by its own proper Efficacy but only to make Men consider might indirectly and at a distance do some Service towards the bringing Men to imbrace the Truth After other Arguments against it I say that whatever Efficacy there is in Force your way apply'd i. e. To punish all and none but Dissenters from the National Church makes against you And the first Reason I give for it is in these Words Because Men out of the right Way are as apt or apter to use Force than others Which is what you are here answering And what can be done better to answer it than to the Words I have above cited to subjoin these following Now whereas our Author says that Penalties or Force is absolutely impertinent in this case because it is not proper to convince the Mind To which you answer that though Force be not proper to convince the Mind yet it is not absolutely impertinent in this case because it may however do some Service towards the bringing Men to embrace the Truth which must save them by bringing them to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper to convince the Mind and which withâ—…ut being foâ—…ed they would not consider Here I tell you No but it is much more proper and likely to make Men receive and imbrace Error than Truth because Men out of the right Way are as apt and perhaps apter to use Force than others Which you tell me is as good a Proof you believe as the thing would admit For otherwise you suppose I would have given you a better And thus you have certainly gain'd the Cause For I having prov'd that Force your way apply'd whatever Efficacy it had would do more harm than good have not sufficiently proved that it cannot
Nonconformity are intended to make all Men consider where 't is known that a great Number under the Magistrates Power are dispensed with and privileged from those Penalties How many omitting the Jews are there for example in the King of England's Dominions under his Care and Power of the Walloon and French Church to whom Force is never apply'd and they live in Security from it How many Pagans are there in the Plantations many whereof born in His Dominions of whom there was never any care taken that they should so much as come to Church or be in the least instructed in the Christian Religion And yet must we believe or can you pretend that the Magistrates use of Force against Nonconformists is to make all his Subjects consider so as to be convinc'd of and imbrace the Truth that must save them If you say in your way you mean no such Indulgence I answer the Question is not of yours but the Magistrates Intention though what your Intention is who would have the want of Consideration or Knowledg in Conformists exempt from Force is visible enough Again Those Penalties cannot be supposed to be intended to make Men consider which are laid on those who have or may have already considered And such you must grant to be the Penalties laid in England on Nonconformists unless you will deny that any Nonconformist has or can consider so as to be convinced or believe and imbrace the Truth that must save him So that you cannot vouch the Intention of the Magistrate where his Laws say nothing much less affirm that Force is intended to produce a certain end in all his Subjects which is not applied to them all and is applied to some who have attained that end already Unless you have a Privilege to affirm against all appearance whatsoever may serve your Cause But to learn some Moderation in this I shall send you to my Pagans and Mahumetans For whatever charitable wishes Magistrates may sometimes have in their Thoughts which I meddle not with no Body can say that in making the Laws or in the use of Force we are speaking of they intended to mâ—…ke Men consider and examine so as to be convinced of and heartily to imbrace the Truth that must save them but he that gives himself the Liberty to say any thing The Service that Force does indirectly and at a distance you tell us in the following Page is to make People apply thâ—…mselves to the use of those Means and Helps which are proper to make them what they are designed to be In the Case before us What are Men designed to be Holy Believers of the Gospel in this World without which no Salvation no seeing of God in the next Let us see now whether Force your way applied can be suted to such a Design and so intended for that End You hold That all out of the National Church where the Religion of the National Church is true should be punished and ought to have Force used to them And again you grant That those who are in the Communion of the National Church ought not to be punished or be under the stroke of Force nor indeed in your way can they If now the effect be to prevail with Men to consider as they ought so that they may become what they are designed to be How can any one think that you and they who use Force thus intend in the use of it that Men should really be Christians both in Perswasion and Practice without which there is no Salvation if they leave off Force before they have attained that effect Or how can it be imagined that they intend any thing but Conformity by their use of Force if they leave off the use of it as soon as Men conform Unless you will say that an outward Conformity to the National Church whose Religion is the true Religion is such an imbracing of the Truth as is sufficient to Salvation Or that an outward Profession of the Christian Religion is the same with being really a Christian which possibly you will not be very forward to do when you recollect what you meet with in the Sermons and Printed Discourses of Divines of the Church of England concerning the Ignorance and Irreligion of Conformists themselves For Penalties can never be thought by any one but he that can think against common Sense and what he pleases to be intended for any End which by that Constitution and Law whereby they are imposed are to cease before that End be attained And will you say that all who are conformable have so well considered that they believe and heartily imbrace the Truths of the Gospel that must save them When perhaps it will be found that a great many Conformists do not so much as understand them But the Ignorance or Irreligiousness to be found amongst Consormists which your way of talking forces me in some Places to take notice of let me here tell you once for all I lay not the blame of upon Conformity but upon your use of Force to make Men conform For whatever the Religion be true or false it is natural for Force and Penalty so applied to bring the irreligious and those who are careless and unconcerned for the true into the National Profession But whether it be fitter for such to be kept out rather than by Force to be driven into the Communion of any Church and owned as Members of it those who have a due Care and Respect for truly religious and pious Conformists were best consider But farther if as you say the opposition to the true Religion lies only in Mens Lusts it having Light and Strength enough were it not for that to prevail and it is upon that account only that Force is necessary there is no necessity at all to use Force on Men only till they conform and no farther Since I think you will not deny but that the Corruption of Humane Nature is as great in Consormists as in Nonconformists in the Professors of as in the Dissenters from the National Religion And therefore either Force was not necessary before or else it is necessary still after Men are Conformists Unless you will say that it is harder for a Man to be a Professor than a Christian indeed And that the true Religion by its own Light and Strength can without the help of Force prevail over a Man's Lusts and the Corruption of his Nature but it has need of the help of Force to make him a Conformist and an outward Professor And so much for the Effect which is intended by him that uses it in that use of Force which you defend The other Argument you bring to shew that your indirect and at a distance Vsefulness of Force your way apply'd is not by accident is the frequent Success of it Which I think is not the true Mark of what is not by accident for an Effect may not be by accident though it has never been produced but once
obliged to answer when I have produced those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince Men that they ought to go to Mass. But if you had not omitted the 3 or 4 immediately preceding Lines an Art to serve a good Cause which puts me in mind of my Pagans and Mahumetans the Reader would have seen that your Reply was nothing at all to my Argument My Words were these Especially if you consider that as the Magistrate will certainly use it Force to force Men to hearken to the proper Ministers of his Religion let it be what it will so you having set no time nor bounds to this Consideration of Arguments and Reasons short of being convinced you under another c. My Argument is to shew of what advantage Force your Way apply'd is like to be to the True Religion since it puts as much Force into the Magistrate's hands as the openest Persecutors can pretend to which the Magistrates of wrong Perswasions may and will use as well as those of the true because your Way sets no other Bounds to Considering short of Complying And then I ask What Difference there is between punishing you to bring you to Mass or punishing you to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sâ—…fficient to convince you that you ought to go to Mass To which you râ—…ply That it is a Question you shall then think your self oblig'd to answer when I have produced those Reasons and Arguments that are proâ—…er and sufficient to convince Men that they ought to go to Mass. Whereas the Objection is the same Whâ—…ther there be or be not Râ—…asons and Arguments proper to convince Men that they â—…t to go to Mass for Men mâ—…st be puâ—…h on till they have so coâ—…dered as to comply And what differnce is there then bâ—…n punishing Men to bring them to Mass and punishing 〈◊〉 to make them consider so as to go to Mass But though I preâ—…d not to produce any Reasons and Arguments proper and conviâ—…e to convince you or all Men that they ought to go to Mass yet do you think there are none proper and sufficient to convince any Men And that all the Papists in thâ—… World go to Mass without believing it their Duty And whosoever believes it to be his Duty does it upon Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince him though perhaps not to convince an other that it is so or else I imagine he would never believe it at all What think you of those great Numbers of Japaneses that resisted all sorts of Torments even to Death it self for the Romish Religion And had you been in France some years since who knows but the Arguments the K. of France produced might have been proper and sufficient to have convinced you that you ought to go to Mass I do not by this think you less confident of the Truth of your Religion than you profess to be But Arguments set on with Force have a strange Efficacy upon humane Frailty and he must be well assured of his own Strength who can peremptorily affirm he is sure he should have stood what above a Million of People sunk under amongst which 't is great Confidence to say there was not one so well perswaded of the Truth of his Religion as you are of yours though some of them gave great Proofs of their Perswasion in their Sufferings for it But what the necessary Method of Force may be able to do to bring any one in your sense to any Râ—…ligion i. e. to an outward Profession of it he that thinks himself secure against must have a greater Assurance of himself than the Weakness of decayed and depraved Nature will well allow If you have any Spell against the Force of Arguments driven with Penalties and Punishments you will do well to teach it the World for it is the hard Luck of well-meaning People to be often misled by them and even the Confident themselves have not seldom fallen under them and betrayed their Weakness To my demanding if you meant Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince Men of the Truth why did you not say so You reply As if it were possible for any Man that reads your Answer to think otherwise Whoever reads that Passage in your A. p. 5. cannot possibly think you meant to speak out and possibly you found some difficulty to add any thing to your Words which are these Force used to bring Men to consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince them that might determine their Sense For if you had said to convince them of Truth then the Magistrate must have made Laws and used Force to make Men search after Truth in general and that would not have served your turn If you had said to convince them of the Truth of the Magistrate's Religion that would too manifestly have put the Power in every Magistrate's hands which you tell us none but an Atheist will say If you had said to convince them of the Truth of your Religion that had looked too ridiculous to be owned though it were the thing you meant and therefore in this strait where nothing you could say would well sit your purpose you wisely choose to leave the Sense imperfect and name nothing they were to be convinced of but leave it to be collected by your Reader out of your Discourse rather than add three Words to make it good Grammar as well as intelligible Sense To my saying That if you pretend it must be Arguments to convince Men of the Truth it would in this Case do you little Service because the Mass in France is as much suppos'd the Truth as the Liturgy here You reply So that it seems that in your Opinion whatsoever is suppos'd the Truth is the Truth for otherwise this Reason of mine is none at all If in my Opinion the Supposition of Truth authorizes the Magistrate to use the same Means to bring Men to it as if it were true my Argument will hold good without taking all to be true which some Men suppose true According to this Answer of yours to suppose or believe his Religion the true is not enough to authorize the Mastrate to use Force he must know i. e. be infallibly certain that his is the True Religion We will for once suppose you our Magistrate with Force promoting our National Religion I will not ask you whether you know that all required of Conformists is necessary to Salvation But will suppose one of my Pagans asking you whether you know Christianity to be the True Religion If you say Yes he will ask you how you know it and no doubt but you will give the Answer whereby our Saviour proved his Mission John V. 36. that the Works which our Saviour did bear witness of him that the Father sent him The Miracles that Christ did are a Proof of his being sent from God and so his Religion the True
Men use consideration which is a means not necessary to that but another end viz. finding out and imbracing the one true Religion For however consideration may be a necessary means to find and imbrace the one true Religion it is not at all a necessary means to outward Conformity in the Communion of any Religion To manifest the consistency and practicableness of your Method to the Question what advantage would it be to the true Religion if Magistrates did every where so punish You answer That by the Magistrates punishing if I speak to the purpose I must mean their punishing Men for rejecting the true Religiâ—…n so tender'd to them as has been said in order to the bringing them to consider and imbrace it Now before we can suppose Magistrates every where so to punish we must suppose the true Religion to be every where the National Religion And if this were the case you think it is evident â—…nough what advantage to the true Religion it would be if Magistrates every where did so punish For then we might reasonably hope â—…hat all fâ—…lse Religions would soon vanish and the true become onâ—… more the only Religion in the World Whereas if Magistrates should not so punish it were much to be fear'd especially considering what has already happen'd that on the contrary false Religions and Atheism as more agreeable to the Soil would daily take deeper Root and propagate themselves till there were no room left for the true Religion which is but a foreign Plant in any Corner of the World If you can make it practicable that the Magistrate should punish Men for rejecting the True Religion without judging which is the True Religion or if True Religion could appear in Person take the Magistrate's Seat and there judg all that rejected her something might be done But the mischief of it is it is a Man that must condemn Men must punish and Men cannot do this but by judging who is guilty of the Crime which they punish An Oracle or an Interpreter of the Law of Nature who speaks as clearly tells the Magistrate he may and ought to punish those who reject the True Religion tender'd with sufficient Evidence The Magistrate is satisfied of his Authority and believes this Commission to be good Now I would know how possibly he can execute it without making himself the Judg 1. What is the True Religion unless the Law of Nature at the same time deliver'd into his Hands the 39 Articles of the One only True Religion and another Book wherein all the Ceremonies and outward Worship of it are contain'd But it being certain that the Law of Nature has not done this and as certain that the Articles Ceremonies and Discipline of this One only True Religion have been often varied in several Ages and Countries since the Magistrate's Commission by the Law of Nature was first given there is no Remedy left but that the Magistrate must judg what is the True Religion if he must punish them who reject it Suppose the Magistrate be commission'd to punish those who depart from right Reason the Magistrate can yet never punish any one unless he be Judg what is right Reason and then judging that Murder Theft Adultery Narrow Cart-Wheels or want of Bows and Arrows in a Man's House are against right Reason he may make Laws to punish Men guilty of those as 〈◊〉 right Reason So if the Magistrate in England or France having a Commission to punish those who reject the One only True Religion judges the Religion of his National Church to be it 't is possible for him to lay Penalties on those who reject it pursuant to that Commission otherwise without judging that to be the One only True Religion 't is wholly impracticable for him to punish those who imbrace it not as Rejecters of the One only True Religion To provide as good a Salvo as the thing will bear you say in thâ—… folâ—…wing words Before we can suppose Magistrates every where so to punish we must suppose the True Religion to be every where the National That is true of actual Punishment but not of laying on Penalties by Law for that would be to suppose the National Religion makes or chuses the Magistrate and not the Magistrate the National Religion But we see the contrary for let the National Religion be what it will before the Magistrate doth not always fall into it and imbrace that but if he thinks not that but some other the True the first Opportunity he has he changes the National Religion into that which he judges the True and then punishes the Dissenters from it where his Judgment which is the True Religion always necessarily precedes and is that which ultimately does and must determine who are Rejecters of the True Religion and so obnoxiâ—…us to Punishment This being so I would gladly see how your Methâ—…d can be any way practicable to the advantage of the True Religion whereof the Magistrate every-where must be Judg or else he can punish no body at all You tell me that whereas I say that to justify Punishment it is requisite that it be directly useful for the procuâ—…ing some 〈◊〉 Good than that which it takes away you wish I had told you why it must needs be directly useful for that purpose However exact you may be in demanding Reasons of what is said I thought here you had no cause to complain but you let slip out of your Memory the foregoing words of this Passage which together stands thus Punishment is some Evil some Inconvenience some Suffering by taking away or abridging some good thing which he who is punish'd haâ—… otherwise a Right to Now to justify the bringing any such Evil upon any Man two Things are requisite 1. That he that does it has a Commission so to do 2. That it be directly useful for the promoting some greater Good 'T is evident by these Words that Punishment brings direct Evil upon a Man and therefore it should not be used but where it is directly useful for the procuring some greater Good In this case the signification of the Word directly carries a manifest Reason in it to any one who understands what directly means If the taking away any Good from a Man cannot be justified but by making it a Means to procure a greater is it not plain it must be so a Means as to have in the Operation of Causes and Effects a natural Tendency to that Effect and then it is called directly useful to such an end And this may give you a reason why Punishment must be directly useful for that purpose I know you are very tender of your indirect and at a distance Usefulness of Force which I have in another place shew'd to be in your way only useful by accident nor will the Question you here subjoin excuse it from being so viz. Why 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not as directly useful for the bringing Men to the True Religion as the Râ—…d
ready was the Ambition Vanity or Superstition of Princes to introduce their Predecessors into the Divine Worship of the People to secure to themselves the greater Veneration from their Subjects as descended from the Gods or to erect such a Worship and such a Priesthood as might awe the blinded and seduced People into that Obedience they desired Thus Ham by the Authority of his Successors the Rulers of Egypt is first brought for the Honour of his Name and Memory into their Temples and never left till he is erected into a God and made Jupiter Hammon c. which Fashion took afterwards with the Princes of other Countries Was not the great God of the Eastern Nations Baal or Jupiter Belâ—… one of the first Kings of Assyria And which I pray is the more likely that Courts by their Instruments the Priests should thus advance the Honour of Kings amongst the People for the ends of Ambition and Power or the People find out these resined Ways of doing it and introduce them into Courts for the enslaving themselves What Idolatry does your History tell you of among the Greeks before Phoroncus and Danaus Kings of the Argives and Cecrops and Theseus Kings of 〈◊〉 and Cadmus King of Thebes introduced it An Art of Rule 't is probable they borrowed from the Egyptians So that if you had not vouch'd the Silence of History without consulting it you would possibly have found that in the first Ages Princes by their Influence and Aid by the Help and Artisice of the Priests they imploy'd their Fables of their Gods their Mysteries and Oracles and all the Assistance they could give it by their Authority did so much against the Truth before direct Force was grown into fashion and appear'd openly that there would be little reason of putting the Guard and Propagation of the True Religion into their hands now and arming them with Force to promote it That this was the Original of Idolatry in the World and that it was borrowed by other Magistrates from the Egyptians is farther evident in that this Worship was setled in Egypt and grown the National Religion there before the Gods of Greece and several other Idolatrous Countries were boâ—… For though they took their Pattern of Deifying their deceased Princes from the Egyptians and kept as near as they could to the Number and Genealogies of the Egyptian Gods yet they took the Names still of some great Men of their own which they accommodated to the Mythology of the Egyptians Thus by the assistance of the Powers in being Idolatry entred into the World after the Flood Whereof if there were not so clear Footsteps in History why yet should you not imagine Princes and Magistrates ingaged in False Religions as ready to imploy their Power for the maintaining and promoting their False Religions in those days as we find them now And therefore what you say in the next Words of the entrance of Idolatry into the World and the it sound in it will not pass for so very evident without Proof though you tell us never so considently that you suppose besides the Corruption of humane Nature there can no other Carse be assigned of it or none more probable than this That the Powers then in being did not what they might and ought to have done 〈◊〉 e. if you mean it to your purpose use Force your way to make Men consider or to impose Creeds and Ways of Worship towards the 〈◊〉 or checking that horrible Apostacy I grant that the entranee and growth of Idolatry might be owing to the Negligence of the Powers in being in that they did not do what they might and ought to have done in using their Authority to suppress the Enormities of Mens Manners and correct the Irregularity of their Lives But this was not all the Assistance they gave to that horrible Apostacy They were as for as History gives us any light the Promoters of it and Leaders in it and did what they ought not to have done by setting up False Religions and using their Authority to establish them to serve their corrupt and ambitious Designs National Religions establish'd by Authority and inforced by the Powers in being we hear of every where as far back as we have any account of the rise and growth of the Religions of the World Shew me any place within those few Generations wherein you say the 〈◊〉 prevail'd after the Flood where the Magistrates being of the True Religion the Subjects by the Liberty of a Toleration were lead into False Religions and then you will produce something against Liberty of Consâ—…ience But to talk of that great Apostacy as wholly owing to Toleration when you cannot produce one Instance of Toleration then in the World is to say what you please That the majority of Mankind were then and always have been by the Corruption and Pravity of humane Nature led away and kept from imbracing the True Religion is past doubt But whether this be owing to Toleration in Matters of Religion is the Question David describes an horrible Corruption and Apostacy in his time so as to say There is none that doth good no not one and yet I do not think you will say a Toleration then in that Kingdom was the cause of it If the greatest part cannot be ill without a Toleration I am afraid you must be fain to find out a Toleration in every Country and in all Ages of the World For I think it is true of all Times and Places that the Broad way that leadeth to Destruction has had most Travellers I would be glad to know where it was that Force your way apply'd i. e. with Punishments only upon Nonconformists ever prevail'd to bring the greater number into the Narrow-way that leads unto Life which our Saviour tells us there are sew that sind The Corrupâ—…on of Humane Nature you say opposes the True Religion I grant it you There was also say you an horrible Apostacy after the Flood let this also be granted you and yet from hence it will not follow that the True Religion cannot subsist and prevail in the World without the assistance of Force your way apply'd till you have shewn that the False Religions which were the Inventions of Men grew up under Toleration and not by the Encouragement and Assistance of the Powers in being How near soever therefore the True Religion was to be extinguish'd within a few Generations after the Flood which whether more in danger then than in most Ages since is more than you can shew This will be still the Question Whether the Liberty of Toleration or the Authority of the Powers in being contributed most to it And whether there can be no other nor more probable Cause assigned than the want of Force your way apply'd I shall leave the Reader to judg This I am sure whatever Causes any one else shall assign are as well proved as yours if they offer them only as their Conjectures Not but
that I think Men could run into false and foollsh Ways of Worship without the Instigation or Assistance of humane Authority but the Powers of the World as far as we have any History having been always forward enough True Religion as little serving Princes as private Mens Lusts to take up Wrong Religions and as forward to imploy their Authority to 〈◊〉 the Religlon good or bad which they had once taken up I can see no reason why the not using of Force by the Princes of the World should be assigned as the sole or so much as the most probable Cause of propagating the False Religions of the World or extirpating the True or how you can so positively say Idolatry prevail'd without any assistauce from the Powers in being Since therefore History leads us to the Magistrates as the Authors and Promoters of Idolatry in the World to which we may suppose their not supressing of Vice joined as another Cause of the spreading of False Religions you were best consider whether you can still suppose there can no other Cause be assigned of the prevailing of the worship of False Gods but the Magistrate's not interposing his Authority in matters of Religion For that that cannot with any probability at all be assigned as any Cause I shall give you this further Reason You impute the prevailing of False Religions to the Corruption and Pravity of Humane Nature left to it self unbridled by Authority Now if Force your way applied does not at all bridle the Corruption and Pravity of Humane Nature the Magistrate's not so interposing his Authority cannot be assigned as any Cause at all of that Apostacy So that let that Apostacy have what rise and spreas as far as you please it will not make one jot for Force your way applied or shew that that can receive any assistance your way from Authority For your use of Authority and Force being only to bring Mento an outward Conformity to the National Religion it leaves the Corruption and Prauity of Humane Nature as unbridled as before as I have shewn elsewhere You tell us That it is not true that the true Religion will preuail by its own Light and Strength without Miracles or the assistance of the Powers in being because of the Corruption of Humane Nature And for this you give us an instance in the Apostacy presently after the Flood And you tell us That without the 〈◊〉 of Force it would presently be extirpated out of the World 〈◊〉 the Corruption of Humane Nature be so universal and so strong that without the help of Force the true Religion is too weak to stand it and cannot at all prevail without Miracles or Force How come Men ever to be converted in Countries where the National Religion is False If you say by Extraordinary Providence what that amounts to has been shewn If you say this Corruption is so potent in all Men as to oppese and prevail against the Gospel not assisted by Force or Miracles that is not true If in most Men so it is still even where Force is used For I desire you to name me a Country where the greatest part are really and truly Christians such as you confidently believe Christ at the last Day will own to be so In England having as you do excluded all the Dissenters or else why would you have them punish'd to bring them to imbrace the true Religion you must I fear allow your self a great Latitude in thinkiing if you think that the Corruption of Humane Nature does not so far prevail even amongst Conformists as to make the Ignorance and Lives of great numbers amongst them such as sutes not at all with the Spirit of â—…ue Christianity How great their Ignorance may be in the more spiritual and elevated parts of the Christian Religion may be guessed by what the Reverend Bishop before cited says of it in reference to a Rite of the Church the most easy and obvious to be instructed in and understood His Words are In the common management of that Holy Right Consirmation it is but too uisible that of those Multitudes that croud to it the far greater part coâ—… meerly as if they were to receive the 〈◊〉 Blossing without any sense of the Vow made by them and of their renewing their Baptismal Engagements in it And if Origen were now alive might he not sind many in our Church to whom these Words of his might be apply'd Whose Faith signifiâ—…only 〈◊〉 much and goes no farther than this VIZ. that they come duly to the Church and how their Heads to the Priests c. For it seems it was then the Fashion to bow to the Priest as it is now to the Altar If therefore you say Force is necessary because without it no Men will so consider as to imbrace the true Religion for the Salvation of their Souls that I think is manifestly false If you say it is necessary to use such means as will make the greatest part so imbrace it you must use some other means than Force your way applied for that does not so far work on the Majority If you say it is necessary because possibly it may work on some which bare Preaching and Perswasion will not I answer If possibly your moderate Punishments may work on some and therefore they are necessary 't is as possible that greater Punishments may work on others and therefore they are necessary and so on to the utmost Severities That the Corruption of Humane Nature is every where spread and that it works powerfully in the Children of Disobedience who received not the Love of the Truth but had Pleasure in Unrighteousness and therefore God gives them up to believe a Lie no Body I think will deny But that this Corruption of Humane Nature works equally in all Men or in all Ages and so that God will or ever did give up all Men not restrained by Force your way modified and applied to believe a Lie as all False Religions are that I yet see no reason to grant Nor will this Instance of Noah's Religion you so much rely on ever perswade till you have proved that from those eight Men which brought the true Religion with them into the new World there were not eight thousand or eighty thousand which retain'd it in the World in the worst Times of the Apostacy And Secondly till you have proved that the False Religions of the World prevail'd without any aid from Force or the assistance of the Powers in being And Thirdly That the decay of the true Religion was for want of Force your moderate Force neither of which you have at all proved as I think it manifest One Consideration more touching Noah and his Religion give me leave to suggest and that is If Force were so necessary for the support of the true Religion as you make it 't is strange God who gave him Precepts about other things should never reveal this to him nor any Body else
one will deny Christian Magistrates to have that Power Since the Commission of the Law of Nature to Magistrates being only that general one of doing Good according to the best of their Judgments if that extends to the use of Force in Matters of Religion it will abundantly more oppose than promote the True Religion if Force in the case has any Efficacy at all and so do more harm than good Which though it shews not what you here demand that it can not do any Service towards the Salvation of Mens Souls for that cannot be shewn of any thing yet it shews the Disservice it does is so much more than any Service can be expected from it that it can never be proved that God has given Power to Magistrates to use it by the Commission they have of doing Good from the Law of Nature But 〈◊〉 you tell me Till I have 〈◊〉 that Force and Penalties cannot do any Service towards â—…he Saâ—…ation of Souls there will be no occaâ—…ion for the Caution I gave you not to be wiser than our Maker in that stupendous and supernatural Work you have forgot your own 〈◊〉 That it is not enough to authorize the use of Force that it may be useful if it be not also necessary And when you can prove such Means necessary which though it cannot be shewn never upon any occasion to do any Service yet may be and is abundantly shewn to do so little Service and so uncertainly that if it be used it will if it has any Efficacy do more harm than good If you can I say prove such a Means as that necessary I think I may yield you the Cause But the use of it has so much certain Harm and so little and uncertain Good in it that it can never be suppos'd included or intended in the general Commission to the Magistrates of doing good Which may serve for an Answer to your next Paragraph Only let me take notice that you here make this Commission of the Law of Nature to extend the use of Force only to induce those who would not otherwise to hear what may and ought to move them to imbrace the Truth They have heard all that is offered to move them to imbrace i. e. believe but are not moved Is the 〈◊〉 by the Law of Nature commission'd to punish them for what is not in their Power for Faith is the Gift of God and not in a Man's Power Or is the Magistrate commission'd by the Law of Nature which impowers him in general only to do them good Is he I say commission'd to make them lie and 〈◊〉 that which they do not believe And is this for their good If he punish them till they imbrace i. e. believe he punishes them for what is not in their Power if till they imbrace i. e. barely prosess he punishes them for what is not for their good To neither of which can he be commission'd by the Law of Nature To my saying Till you can shew us a 〈◊〉 in Scripture it will be fit for us to obey that 〈◊〉 of the Gospel Mark 4. 24. which bids us take â—…eed what we 〈◊〉 You reply That this you suppose is only intended for the 〈◊〉 Reader For it ought to be renderd Attend to what you hear which you prove out of 〈◊〉 What if I or my Readers are not so learned as to understand either the Greek Original or 〈◊〉 Latin Comment Or if we did are we to be blamed for understanding the Scripture in that Sense which the National i. e. as you say the True Reliâ—…ion authorizes and which you tell us would be a Fault in us if we did not believe For if as you suppose there be sufficient Provision made in England for instructing all Men in the Truth we cannot then but take the Words in this Sense it being that which the Publick Authority has given them for if we are not to follow the Sense as it is given us in the Transtation authorized by our Governors and used in our Worship establish'd by Law but must seek it elsewhere 't will be hard to find how there is any other Provision made for instructing Men in the Sense of the Scripture which is the Truth that must save them but to leave them to their own Inquiry and Judgment and to themselves to take whom they think best for Interpreters and Expounders of Scripture and to quit that of the True Church which she has given in her Translation This is the Liberty you take to differ from the True Church when you think â—…it and it will serve your purpose She says take take what you hear but you say the true Sense is 〈◊〉 to what you hear Methinks you should not be at such variance with Distenters for after all nothing is so like a Nonconformist as a Conformist Though it be certainly every one's Right to understand the Scripture in that Sense which appears truest to him yet I do not see how you upon your Principles can depart from that which the Church of England has given it but you I ndâ—… when you think fit take that Liberty and so much Liberty as that would I think satisfy all the 〈◊〉 in England As to your other place of Scripture if St. Paul as it seems to me in that Xth to the Romans were shewing that the Gentiles were provided with all things necessary to Salvation as well as the Jews and that by having Men sent to them to preach the Gospel that Provision was made what you say in the two next Paragraphs will shew us that you understand that the Greek Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies both Hearing and Report but does no more answer the Force of those two Verses against you than if you had spared all you said with your Greek Criticism The Words of St. Paul are these How then shall they call on him on whom they have not believed And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard And how shall they hear without a Preacher And how shall they preach except they be sent So then Faith cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God In this Deduction of the Means of propagating the Gospel we may well suppose St. Paul would have put in Miracles or Penalties if as you say one of them had been necessary But whether or no every Reader will think St. Paul set down in that place all necessary Means I know not but this I am consident he will think that the New Testament does and then I ask Whether there be in it one word of Force to be used to bring Men to be Christians or to hearken to the good Tidings of Salvation offer'd in the Gospel To my asking What if God for Reasons best known to Himself would not have Men compell'd You answer If he would not have them compell'd now Miracles are ceased as far as moderate Penalties compel otherwise you are not concern'd
But since you explain your self otherwise here I am not unwilling to take your Hypothesis as you from time to time shall please to reform it You answer then That to make them examine is indeed the next End for which they are to be punish'd But what is that to my Question Which if it be pertinent demands for what Fault not for what End they are to be punish'd As appears even by my next Words So that they are punish'd not for having offended against a Law i. e. not for any Fault for there is no Law in England that requires them to examine This I must confess was to shew that here as in France whatever was pretended yet the True Reason why People were punish'd was their Religion And it was for this Agreement that in both Places Religion was meant though something else was talked of that I said your plea was like that made use of in France But I see I might have spared my Pains to prove that you punish Diffenters for their Religion since you here own it You tell me in the same place I was impertinent in my Question which was this For what then are they to be punish'd that I demanded for what End and not for what Fault they are to be punish'd In good earnest Sir I was not so subtile as to distinguish them I always thought that the End of all Laws was to amend those Faults which were forbidden and that when any one was punish'd the Fault for which he was punish'd was the â—…ransgression of the Law in that particular which was by the Law commanded or forbidden and the End of the Punishment was the Amendment of that Fault for the future For Example If the Law commanded to hear not Hearing was the Fault punish'd and the End of that Punishment was to make the Offenders hear If the Law commanded to examine the Fault punish'd when that Law was put in Execution was not Examining and the End of the Punishment to make the Offenders examine If the Law commanded Conformity the Fault was Nonconformity and the End of it to make Men conform This was my Apprehension concerning Laws and Ends of Punishments And I must own my self still so dull as not to distinguish otherwise between the Fault for which Men are to be punish'd and the End for which they are to be punish'd but only as the one is past the other future The Transgression or Fault is an Omission or Action that a Man is already guilty of the End of the Punishment that it be not again repeated So that if a Man be punish'd for the Religion he 〈◊〉 I can see no other End for which he is punish'd but to make him quit that Religion No other immediate End I mean for other remote Ends to which this is subordinate it may have So that if not examining the Religion which Men have imbraced and the Religion they have rejected be not the Fault for which Men are punish'd I would be glad you would shew me how it can be the next End as you say it is of their being punish'd And that you may not think my Dullness gives you a Labour without Ground I will tell you the Reason why I cannot find any other next End of Punishment but the Amendment of the Fault forbidden and that is Because That seems to me to be the End the next End of any Action which when obtain'd the Action is to cease and not cease till it be attain'd And thus I think it is in Punishments ordain'd by the Law When the Fault forbidden is amended the Punishment is to cease and not till then This is the only way I have to know the End or final Cause for which any Action is done If you have any other you will do me a kindness to instruct me This 't is which makes me conclude and I think with me all those who have not had the Leisure and Happiness to attain the utmost resining of the Schools that if their Religion be the Fault for which Dissenters are punish'd Examining is not the End for which they are punish'd but the Change of their Religion Though Examining may perhaps in some Men precede their Change and help to it But that is not necessary A Man may change his Religion without it And when he has chang'd let the Motive be what it will the End the Law aims at is obtain'd and the Punishment ceases So on the other side If not Hearing not Examining be the Fault for which Men are punish'd Conformity is not the next End for which they are punish'd though it may perhaps in some be a Consequence of it but Hearing and Examining must be understood to be the Ends for which they are punish'd If they are not the Ends why does the Punishment cease when those Ends are attain'd And thus you have my Thoughts concerning this Matter which perhaps will not be very pertinent as mine have not the good luck always to be to you to a Man of nicer Distinctions But let us consider your Hypothesis as it now stands and see what advantage you have got to your Cause by this new Explication Dissenters from the True Religion are to be punish'd say you for their Religion Why Because 't is a Fault Against whom Against God Thence it follows indeed that God if he pleases may punish it But how will you prove that God has given the Magistrates of the Earth a Power to punish all Faults against himself Covetousness or not loving our Neighbour as our selves are Faults or Sins against God Ought the Magistrate to punish these But I shall not need to trouble you much with that Question This Matter I think will be decided between us without going so sar If the Magistrate may punish any one for not being of the True Religion must the Magistrate judg what is that True Religion or no If he must not what must guide him in the punishing of some and not of others For so it is in all places where there is a National Religion establish'd by Penal Laws If the Magistrate be commission'd by the same Law of Nature for that is all the Commission you pretend to to judg what is the True Religion by which he is authorized to punish those who dissent from it Must not all Magistrates judg and accordingly punish those who dissent from that which they judg the True Religion i. e. in effect those who dissent from theirs And if all Magistrates have a Power to punish those who are not of their Religion I ask you Whether it be of more use or disadvantage to the promoting True Religion and Salvation of Souls And when you have resolved that Question you will then be able to tell me whether the Usefulness of it which must be determin'd by the greater Good or Harm it is like to do is such as to justify your Doctrine about it or the Magistrate's use of it Besides your making the Dissenting from the