further to confer with her be given An Introduction shewing the occasion of the Dialogue Ensuing UPon a time I had in me a moâ—ion To take some cognizance of that Devotion Which in Old Lincoln's great Cathederal Is used in the way Prelatical Which I confess did outwardly appear Right glorious for to please both Eye and Ear. But when I call'd to mind the greatest end Of Divine Worship which is to amend Mans pravity by good edification I found that Worship a meer desolation One thing to me prodigious did appear Above the rest 't was two men which did wear Great Linnen Coats and one had on his back A Red Cloath ty'd as some men tye their Pack These did themselves divide from all the rest And walked Eastward bowing down their brest At certain places and obedience yeelded Vnto a cover'd Board which there was builded Where on a Cushon each man kneeled down And when their Arms on other two were thrown They seem'd to pray having their eyes cast down Upon two Printed Books where having shown Their skill in Reading he on th'right hand rose And turning West he did his Book unclose And therein read a Chapter which Paul wrote In th'second of the Corinths which I quote The rather for because methinks it might Have given these two Readers much more Light Than to have worship'd Wood or Cloth utensels Or ty'd themselves in Pray'rs to what mens pensels Had measur'd out This read some other things They also read and then a Black man brings Them off their stage bearing a silver Mace Before these white men to their former place Now when these Obsequies and Postulations Were finished then many made Orations Around the Quire but what was said or sung If I should say I know I should but wrong My self and them for there was such confusion Of Voices that wer 't Truth or wer't Delusion Nor hurt nor profit did thereof ensue To me sith what they said I no whit knew Yet these strang sights do cause me stil to wonder Why Prelates do against the Papists thunder So much because of Image-adoration For if that Wood or Stone built in the fashion Of Tables may adored be by Saints What lets the same when some like Men it prints Especially if Christ his form it beareth As reverend as a Table it appeareth Now having these mens doings thus far viewed I left them all within their stalls impued And having heard that some in Prison lay Because they could not close with that fine way of Worship I therefore anon repaired To see how these distressed persons fared And being come unto their lodging place I found the Prisoners with erected face To Heaven with their knees prostrate before The mighty God whom they did there adore With Pray'r and Praises which I understood And so far fervent that I gain'd some good By this Devotion for my cogitations Provoked were to heav'nly meditations And Christian conference with those distressed About the end reserv'd for all the Blessed These things I thought upon when home returned And in the sence thereof I partly mourned And partly did rejoyce I also thought How these things might into some form be brought For others and my own edification In Truth to stand and to have Preservation Somewhat by this means from the several snares Which do or may lye hid in Forms of Pray'rs And sith the Prison and the Minster were The places wherein I these Prayers did hear I therefore have the Conference compiled Between these two And now to be reviled For this my work it is my expectation From all such persons as in this our Nation Are preresolv'd to follow Mans Invention But hap as'twill that shall be no prevention To me from speaking Truth and more than that To speak if I do know 't my soul doth hate But now of time I 'll make no more expence But let the Goal begin the Conference The CONFERENCE CHAP. I. The Argument About Antiquity The Jayle doth first Dispute The Minster makes Repply The Jayle doth her Confute Jayle I Greet thee well thou great Cathederal Now shining in thy Form Prelatical Whilst others lye within my Cells because They can't conform to thy Prelatick Laws Whose case yet seemeth just and good to me Although 't is true they do dissent from thee Cathedral Is this a Jayle-like-greeting what 's the cause Thou thus declin'st thy work to take a pause About Religion and I further strange To hear the Jayle once intimate a Change 'Twixt her and me who wont with one consent All talk that 's too religious to prevent Jayle 'T is I even I thy old deluded Friend Which us'd to keep in hold whom thou didst send Without a due inquiry of their câ—use And now behold such as do keep God's Laws Thou hast again committed unto me And let'st the breakers of his Law go free Cathederal Fy my Old Friend It grieves me thus to hear Thee side with those who do against me bear So great an opposition that if they Should freely speak perhaps my glorious way Might get a blot now therefore I advise thee Be gon lest I for this attempt chastise thee Jayle Perswade me not for I 'm concern'd to know The Truth from Falshood full as much as thou Now therefore give me leave with thee to reason About Religion whil'st we have a season Wherein to do it for the day 's at hand We must give an account how here we stand Cathederal Thou reason 'bout Religion When didst thou Take thy degrees the Liberal Arts to know Thou art prophane and I a Holy Place Nor can I with thee reason ' thout disgrace Sith therefore thus I may my self abuse I think it best thy offer to refuse Jayle Religion is not ty'd to Humane Learning For this is plain to all men of discerning That God hath chose the foolish and the poor Of this world rich in Faith Yea furthermore It seem'd well-pleasing to the Lord that Babes Should see true Light whilest th'wise lie in dark shades Cathederal 'T is true the Scripture speaks of such a thing When first the Gospel-Light began to spring But since that time 't is said th'unlearned do The Scriptures wrest unto their overthrow And this O Jayle is like to be thy fate Unless thou keep thee to thy former state Jayle Th'unlearned and th'unstable ones which do The Scriptures wrest unto their overthrow Are Learned Jews and famous Athens Scholars And not the poor who are our Saviours followers Th' first Churches were unlearned yet had skiil In holy Writ to know Gods holy Will Cathederal My other reason may suffice though this Should fail the Disputation to dismiss Defile not then my place by thy intrusion Nor think thou here to vent thy new Delusion for each must know their place and keep the same Or else receive their due deserved blame Jayle I do presume no holiness can be A good pretence this Conference to flee Nor yet can I thy place more holy
deem Than other places this though strange it seem I can prove true for in the Gospel day Distinctions of this kind are done away Cathederal It seems then I no holier am then thou In thy conceit but Scripture doth us show There 's holy ground as well as ground prophane Place where God will be worship'd and again Place where he will no Sacrifice accept But th'Off'rer and th' Oblation both reject Jayle The Scripture shews that such esteem there WAS Of Place but shews that such esteem should pass Away from Christians wherefore I say Thy Ground or Place no holier is this day Than other places wherefore every where Men may with holy hearts in prayer appear Cathederal My Place must needs be holy for this cause It builded was therein to teach Gods Laws It consecrated was also by those Whom God to minister his Word there chose So was not every place then thou dost ill Thus to compare thy Place with this my Hill Jayle Were all this proved which thou never can Yet mine 's as holy seeing such a man As Christ hath sanctifi'd each place so far As therein he 'll accept of holy Prayer And Paul i' th Jayle at Midnight sang an Hymn Such as few singers ever sang in thine Cathederal Well I perceive I must with thee engage In a Religious contest ere this Age Doth terminate Then let us now propose The Point to be Disputed and then close In Argument The Question then shall he About the Church Whether 't be Me or Thâ—e Jayle No Question like to this the Church once found Will for our finding all Truth prove a Ground So clear that we no Truth shall need to know But she will strait be ready it to show Then fit thy self thy Church for to maintain For that 's the thing I question to be plain Cathederal Dost question that then that will I defend Against thy Opposition Now descend To some particularities that we The reason of thy doubt may fully see And fairely Answer Then let 's see the ground Thou hast to prove thy Church and Doctrine sound Jayle Well then the first place where I shall detect thee For no true Church now let who can protect thee Is thy Minority or want of Age To be esteemed for that Matron sage Espous'd to Christ 'bove sixteen hundred years Ago whilst thou as yesterday appears Cathederal Blis me Did ever any creature know A Jayl that had a more unshamefac'd brow Than thou in this What do not I well know ye To be of Leidens breed of Munster trow ye For shame leave talking of Antiquity Thou art in no respect so old as I. Jayle Alas I see thou knowst me not i' th least Whilst thou deriv'st my line from that mad beast Of Munster ' gainst whose pranks I did protest Even in those dayes as Cassander hath prest Me forth in Print and sith he doth acquit me Thy Callumny in this case cannot hit me Cathederal What wilt deny thy Father do not each My Pulpits sound thee forth when there I preach For such an Upstart Yea my Doctors all There shew thy Radix this their Volumns shall Attest yea th'Papists whom thou sayst acquit thee Say Munster as thy Patriarch befits thee Jayle Thy Doctors and the Papists sometimes say I am no older than that Germans fray Yet otherwhile they both confess I came Down from th'Apostls times now then for shame Insist not on their witness which appears In its Concordance like two Dogs by th' ears Cathederal Sure thou dost wrong both Papists and my Men Beware how thou dost thus imploy thy Pen For if thou shew not from sufficient ground Where they themselvs in this case thus confound I will requite thee as a false accuser And of these reverend Clerks a great abuser Jayle First Willet in 's Synopsis Papismi Opposing Papists 'bout Antiquity Observes that Bernard names some Sectaries Who Pedobaptisme did much despise They 'r call'd Apostolicks because 't is thought From th'Postles times these Sectaries came out Cathederal I find that Willet speaks to this effect But those bore not the name of thy proud Sect Men may deny to baptize Infants so They may deny Believers Baptism too So then this Instance thee no way assists Vnless these men were prov'd Anabaptists Jayle The Papists in their Book of Motives say Th'Apostolicks were such as at this day Are called Anabaptists yea that name They do expresly give them and the same Thy old Friend Marbeck gives to some in Rome In Anno Dom. One hundred fifty one Cathedral I read these Books and must confess I find These things are so What then Thou art behind Some which do boast of their Antiqâ—ity From such like proves to wit the Papacy But yet all this cannot evince the truth Of their Church-state nor yet of thine forfooth Jayle If I no better Plea in this respect Can shew than th'Papists thou shalt me reject As one that 's noval but at present I Am not engag'd for my Antiquity 'T is thou O Minster which must now engage To prove thy self Christs Church in point of age Cathederal Come on I reason thus from Featly's mouth That Church is of full age whose Doctrine's Truth Perpetual unchanged and I say Such is my Doctrine wherefore now I may Conclude with him that thus my Church is true Thy Answer now bring forth to open view Jayle I do deny thy Minor and I say Thy Doctrine which gives enterance to thy way Of Church-ship is not true nor yet so old As in the Scriptures to be found enrol'd For thou without Christs Soul-converting Word Thy Church with carnal members hast bestor'd Cathederal 'T is true my Members now are wholly such When I receive them as no word can touch In order to Conversion yet I say The holy Scripture will evince my way Was not our Father Abra'm and his Seed Brought into one Church-state search now and read Jayle I search and find That unto every Nation To every Creature good news of Salvation For Faith and for Repentance must be taught Before into Christs Church they can be brought Contrary-wise 't is clear that Abr'ams Seed Had no such Obligation that we read Cathederal The Parents do believe and so the Child For Abra'ms Seed in Holy Writ are stil'd Gods Covenant which Abram is the same That 's made with us now therefore here again See how thou err'st making Parental-Faith So needful to let in to th'Churches Path. Jayle The Scripture shews most plain that Abrams Seed In Gospel-times are such as own his Creed Also the Scriptures quite dissolve that Plea Of Parent-interest in a Gospel-day The Jews are Abrams Seed and yet 't is plain That makes them not in 's Covenant remain Cathederal I tell thee Christian-Infants are as free To Gospel-Priviledges as we see The Children of the Jewes were in their time To Legal Rites thus doth my Doctrine shine And is most Antient being not deny'd Till such
hands being sent to a Friend of mine The party sending it supposing it gave very clear evidence against the Anabaptists I therefore searched what it said in that respect and found in their Answer to the ninth Question the very thing which we hold in the point of Baptism clearly asseâ—ted and proved The Question and Answer are verbatim as followeth Question What are the publick means which Christ hath appointed to Salvation Answer Christ hath appointed that fit men shall be ordained his Ministers to disciple the uncalled and to baptise all that are Disciples Mat. 28. 19 20. Mark 16. 15. This is all they say in that Book concerning Baptism nor quote they any other Scriptures whereupon I wrote is followeth What! shall nigh fixty of wise learned men Yea of the prime be contradicted when After no small debate they published This Book which seems with Zeal and Truth bespred Our Catechisers grave learned all How can a work by such performed fall Good Reader bow thine heart to understand What 's true though 't be from an unlearned hand The wisdom of the wise must come to nought For so it was foretold and now is brought In part to pass since thus much may be said Ev'n of these men they quite destroy the trade Of their so much adored baptizing Of Infants Wherefore them this song I 'l sing Our Catechisers must be catechiz'd How and what persons ought to be baptiz'd For here they lie i' th dark and will not see What 's true what 's false though by themselves it be Made manifest in this their little Book To every Reader who doth please to look In page the one and thirtieth where they say Concerning Baptising This is Christ's Way That such as are uncall'd must first be taught Now Infants are uncall'd and therefore ought By their direction not to be baptized And yet as though all this had not sufficed They further tell us All that are Disciples Baptiz'd must be into the sacred Titles Of Father Son and Spirit Then they cite Mathew the eight twenteth which gives light With Mark the sixteenth full to what they say And we say th' same and thus they cast away Their Infant Baptisme sith Infants can Be no Disciples made by th' wisest man That is amongst this Catalogue I mean Or else their skill is more than we have seen For sith Disciple doth import a Learner By others teaching he 's a weak discerner That taketh new-born Infants for to be Disciples Thus we may mans folly see Cathederal As for the Presbyters let them maintain Their plea. But for Tradition 't is most plain It stands with me And tho thou hast now shown Some few who did thy way of Baptism own Thou dost not prove that ever these men taught ' Gainst Infant Baptisme yet this thou ought To shew but this can in no wise be shown For 't is most clear they did my Baptim own Jayl Because I hate disingenuity I grant some Antients did with thee comply But yet I say th'most Antient if not all Such doctrine taught as doth in question call Thy Infant Baptisme And some did so Oppose it that their lives they did forgo In opposition to it in our Nation When first upon our Land it made invasion But ere I come to speak of these sad dayes We 'll cast our eye on some doctrinal rayes Of th' Antients that the mist they may expel And clear our way First Jerom doth us tell The Lord commanded first to teach and then Baptise such as appeared faithful men And Justin Martyr doth the same avow And Athanasius doth that truth allow Haimo avoucheth this for verity And Rabinus the same doth testifie Beda is of this mind and plainly saith Th' Apostles did instruct men in the Faith And then baptise them So Strigelius Did likewise teach So did Eusebius Basil and Austin do this Doctrine own Cyprian before them did the same make known With others whom I now refuse to name Sith these are persons of the greatest fame And now O Minster pray thee well observe What strength I have from Records which preserve The mem'ry of our Nations first reception Of Gospel-light see therefore this collection Out of Fabian his right ancient story In the fifth part where though he greatly glory Of that great Monk Augustine call'd by name Yet unto his and thy no little shame He doth confess that Brittons Bishops did Refuse to baptise Infants tho much chid By that great Monk Their reason was they say Such things had not been taught them till that day Yet they the Gospel long before obeyed And in the love thereof were firm and stayed But now alas for this their just denyal Of Austins motion they strait met with tryal For Fabian relates how they were slain And Fox upon Augustine layes the blame At least in part and can assign no cause But that they did not bow to Austins Laws Now Minster if we take the perfect time When in this Land the Gospel first did shine Which was more than four hundred years before Austin the Monk set foot upon our shore During which time no persons were baptized That I can find till they were catechised Then 't is most clear my Baptism thine out dates Four hundred years as Fabian relates In this our Island and in other places Mine hath the old foot-steps thine noval traces But why do I thy doing daign to name Baptisme for in truth it is a shame For to vouchsafe it such an appellation Only I use it ' cause our disputation Doth so require But Sprinkling never can Suit with God's Word delivered unto man For his direction in that Ordinance Of Baptizontes sith that clear instance In John the third and twenty third hath said The Reason why John Baptist us'd his trade In Enon was because of plenitude Of Water which doth Sprinkling Clear exclude From being Baptisme As also doth The act of Philip and the Eunuch both Sith both went into th' Water for to act What Baptisme requires in th' outward fact Yea Christ our Lord who knew the Father's will Went Into Water Baptism to fulfill Now whether Scripture or thy Doctors be The safest guide herein I leave to thee Cathedral Doubtless O Jayl in this bend of quotations Thou' rt guilty of no small falsifications I ask thee whether thou hast read each Father Whose words in this sort thou hast scratch'd together If not as doubtless not sith thou' rt unlearned O how presumptuous then art thou discerned Jayle I answer freely some I 've read not all The Works of these whose witness forth I call The most I 've read even as they are translated By those to whom thy self art ' sociated Which therefore must more claim thy estimation Than if they were the fruit of my translation Cathederal Whereas my Sprinkling thou so ill dost brook Thou mayst remember if thou please to look Into
impos'd upon us The test of Antiquity Let every soul be subject to the higher Powers He that enjoyneth this to every soul whom hath he exempted from subjection to Earthly Powers I may not demand or ask these things but of him of whom I know I shall obtain them I am his Servant and am killed for his Doctrine And do offer the best and greatest Sacrifice which he hath commanded Trajan the Emperor did send to Pliny to make enquiry of the manner of the Christians Life and afterwards to persecute them them Pliny writ again That after he had throughly enquired with most cruel torments until such time as he delivered them into the Hangmans hand to see them executed yet he never did find any other thing but that they accustomed to assemble at certain times to sing praises unto Christ as unto God Thus have I of my Faith confession made To which the test of th' Antients I did add Not that I think there 's any such like plea Drawn from Antiquity which more doth weigh Than doth the Holy Text which I have brought In proof of every point nor is there ought So truly Antient as their divine sayings But sith some tell us tales to your dismayings As though there 's nothing in Antiquity Which standeth with that Antient Verity Which now I hold I for this cause have brought These Witnesses to shew that whilst thou thought Antiquity was on thy side thou dost In very deed of empty nothings boast For sith I can from thine own Allegations Out of the Fathers bring such clear quotations For what I hold then doubtless I might shew Yet many moe and them both full and true For what I hold and had I th' skill which thou Hast in the Antients writings might them show And herein I could wish that men of parts Who love the Truth might so improve their Arts. Cathederal As touching this thy tedious Confession To speak to ev'ry point would be oppression Unto my patience Then wait my pleasure For I to answer it must take some leisure But I remember thou didst me detect As one inconstant But that 's thy defect Jayle Sith to thy charge I laid Inconstancy I 'le make 't appear For when the Papacy Possession took of the Commanding Pow'r Thou then turn'd Papist as 't was in an hour When Protestants got head thou didst the same When Neuter N O L thou promptly bore his frame Cathederal Why must we not subject unto the Pow'rs We are not their Commanders they are ours So that if they command we must obey Tho Pa. Prel Pres or a compounded way The Mass-book Comon-Pray'r-book or else neither If so the King command I 'le observe either Jayle God's Worship never stood on such a pin To turn with Man's breath either out or in God's Faithful Ones in this case did withstand The things that mighty Kings did oft command And yet as Kings they ever them obeyed And for their peace and good devoutly prayed Cathederal This point with others hath been controverted What I hold and what thou holdst is asserted We will therefore appeal to him for tryal Who doth no falshood own nor give denial To any Truth And now for a Conclusion I do conjure thee pray against Delusion Jayle That is my pray'r but I 'le not pray with thee Till in the Truth we shall united be Which we may be if we our selves deny And learn of God in due humility Which when thou dost in Truth 't is in my mind Not here but in the Jayl I shall thee find Cathederal What! is the Jayl and Truth so near united This dreadful doctrine will make men affrighted And few will find the Truth for if 't be so There 's few to seek the Truth to Jayl will go Now fare thee wel keep that place as thy treasure And I 'le keep this and here enjoy my pleasure Jayle Adiâ—u Cathederal go take thy fill Of Organ-Musick And sith 't is God's will I 'le back to that unpleasant Cell of mine Where some Truth 's known which else would never shine In its bright splendor Also there our God Doth shew himself a Father by his Rod. CHAP. VII The Arg. The Jayl doth soberly reflect upon the Conference And several things to that effect having some reference MY Muse thou' rt now return'd into the Jayl And canst not with the Minster yet prevail To bow her ear to Truth that it might win Her to the Antient Truth and from Romes Sin Now sith in this place of disconsolation None can deprive thy heart of meditation Let us reflect upon what sights wâ— have seen In yonder Minster who as some great Queen Doth seem to sit in joy in pomp and pleasure With wealth mirth other such like treasure But yet in this Reflection let us give Precedency to Christ's Church which doth live This day in Jaylâ— in holes and dens of Thieves VVhose life though such yet there is nought that grieves A sinful Generation more than that Her being here 's not wholly extirpate Lord I have viewed thy most holy House Thy Church as it at first erected was And with the beauty thereof I was moved There to sit down as th' place I chiefly loved In which Church I have seen my Saviour sweet Rise up and wash his poor Disciples feet There have I seen such as do minister Deny themselves of all things sinister There were thy Servants clâ—d like other men Their Instruments of Musick were not Tin There have I seen thy Servants generally Perform their Duty all in Charity There have I seen thy Spirit giving Graces Whereby each one were fitted for their places There have I seen those Graces exercised And none for doing so have been despised Nor persecuted But each one required To seek with choicest gifts to be inspired There did I see a holy Discipline The exercise whereof made Zion shine And many other precious things I saw In point of observation of God's Law And having heard the Minster laid great claim Unto thy Churches Interest and Name And yet by her most earnest procuration Some men she did surprize by captivation And lock't them up within my gates because They would not cease to keep thy Antient Laws At this I marvelled and therefore went To see what her pretence and practice meant For I suspected deeply by these doings Her feet were stray'd from Zions Antient goings Because from those men I could nothing gather That shew'd them guilty of what she would father On them to wit that they were Peace-disturbers Wheras in truth 't was cause they were Vicecurbers Which caus'd them to be shut within my barrs Under pretence of Law turn'd into snares Now when I came into the Minster walking I veiwed certain men which there were talking Gallants of all sorts they appear'd to be And seem'd to live in mirth and melodie On my right-hand there ' spide I a Convention From whence proceeded very hot contention For Money-matters