there I shew also the reason wherfore and why And therfore I wene it wyl appere plain that I myssetake not the letter of his treatyse at all that his reason runneth out in dede agaynst euery kynde of men For there is neyther spyrytuall man nor temporall but he maye take harme by habundaunce But so is there as I there saye neyther spyrytuall man nor temporall but he maye wyth haboundaunce do good ¶ But nowe the declaracyon of his mynde in thys answere mendeth al the mater For here he declareth y t by these wordê of his in a maner stranglynge he meaneth the mynyshynge of some feruour as though a man wolde say that by almost killyng with a clubbe he ment the geuynge of a fylyppe in the forhed wyth his lytle fynger ¶ But syth that in this .vi. chapiteâ— of hys his great mortall stranglyng is nowe strangeled away and tourned into venyall synne we shall for this mater trouble you no leÌ„ger but eueryman maye take haly water and go home to dyner for seruyce is all done here for to day ¶ The counsayle of saynte Bernarde that he there speketh of to the pope Eugenius is in good fayth as me thynketh very well brought in And I wolde aduyse euery spiritual man to folowe yt and to take good temporal men to hym and let theym do all hys temporall besynesse for hym This thynke I good as for myne owne mynde but yf there be in any parte any lawes made all redy to the contrarye by suche folke as yt can not bycome me to contrall Howe be yt I suppose that myche parte of they re temporall besynesse is done by temporall men in dede ¶ As for his acte of parliament that he speketh of I suppose veryly that the clergye wolde not be agaynst yt And suche actes are there all redy made mo then one good and suffycyent but yf he meane to sette an addycyon therto that â—he kynges grace sholde expressely be bounden by the acte that yf he gaue any lycence of mortysynge into the chyrche yt shold be voyde excepte such cases as thys good man lyste to lymyte and geue hym leue Syth his hyghnes is now moued by this good maÌ„ here therto his grace may agre to it when yt pleaseth hym ¶ As for the great mater that he maketh of that I neuer in all the tyme that I was conuersaunt in the court could perceyue any of the noble men aboue the nombre of seuen and yet not nowe so many that euer thought yt good that any possessyons of the chyrche sholde wyth oute a lawfull cause be taken awaye there from I meruayle mych what he meaneth and what subtyll conceyte he conceyueth in his wyse breste that he so mutereth and muÌ„bleth vpon that word as though suche communicacyon eyther on the tone syde or the tother were of suche hygh importaunce that yt were eyther felonye or some heyghnouse mysprisyoÌ„ eyther in tellyng the tale agayn or els in kepyng yt counsayle so longe For I wote nere in good faythe in whyche of the twayne this good man fyndeth y e faute or whether he fynde any or none But yf he fynde any in which of the twayne so euer he fynd yt he fyndeth but his owne foly For nowe shall you good readers se what lytle insyght the man hath in any thyng that he readeth Fyrst he reherseth a parte of my wordê wryten in myne Apologye fo 130 where I saye that I neuer founde in all the tyme whyse I was conuersaunt in the courte of all the nobylyte of this lande aboue the nombre of seuen y t euer I perceyued to be of y â— mynd that yt were eyther ryght or reasonable or coulde be to the realme profytable wythout lawfull cause to take any possessyons awaye frome the clergye Nowe vpon these wordê ye shall se what he gathereth by whych ye shal se what wyt and what lernynge the man hath These are his wordes lo. Syth mayster More sayth that he hath not knowen aboue seuen wherof he sayth thre are dede that were of the mynde that yt were reasonable wythout cause to take possessyons fro the clergye in whyche wordes yt is coucluded that he knew seuen of that mynde whose opynyons yt lyketh hym to reherse and putte in writynge and in prynte also ¶ This man hath a special insyght in inclusyues and exclusyues when he weneth that in my wordes it were included that I knewe .vii. of that mynde that yt were reasonable to take awaye possessyons fro the chyrche wythout cause My wordes you wote well that I neuer knewe aboue seuen that wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye possessyons fro the chyrche thought eyther ryght or resonable or that yt coulde be to the realme profytable What include these wordê now Do they include as he saith y â— I say that I knew .vii. y t thought yt reasonable Thys maÌ„ ys so connynge in hys inclusyues exclusyues that he dyscerneth nothynge bytwene compulatyues and dysiunctyuys This man I se well neuer lerned the rule that almoste euery boy can that to the veryte of a dysiunctyue yt suffyseth any one parte to be trew Let hym now lerne yt therfore and thenne shall he perceyue that my wordê include no farther but that I saye that I knewe seuen which among them all thought some one of those thre thynges that is to wyt eyther some of them some one and some of them some other or els al seueÌ„ some one of those thre thinges that is to wyt eyther ryght or reasonable or profytable wythoute any determynacyon whyche of the thre And neyther includeth those wordes of myne that I say all seuen thoughte yt ryght nor that all seuen thoughte yt reasonable no nor yet that all seuen thought yt profytable But yt hangeth not vppon hys determynacyon but vpon myn owne declaracyoÌ„ which of these thre thinges whyche of those same seuen thought or whyche one of the thre they all thoughte and neuer one of those thre thynges is determinately included to any one of the seuen For yf I wolde saye that I neuer knewe in all my lyfe any man aboue the nomber of seuen that had ben eyther at Alkayre or at Salem or at Bizance do these wordes include that I saye that I haue knowen seuen that haue ben at Salem That am I sure they do not But I maye well stande by those wordes yf I sayde after that I haue knowen seuen persons that haue bâ—n al seuen at Bizance but as for Alkayre or SaleÌ„ I neuer knewe any one that hadde ben at any one of them both ¶ And in lyke wyse wyll I well stande by myne other wordes and veryfye theym wyth a good excludyng of this mannes includyng For I say and very trouthe yt is that I neuer found any noble man aboue the nombre of seuen that wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye possessyons fro the clergye thought yt eyther ryght or reasonable or that yt coulde be for the realme profytable I founde
tyme with this good man entre in this mater in to seryouse ernest argumentes But I shall shew hym a good mery cause wherfore that though I be of hys mynde therin yet I dare not aduise them there to The cause is that I se them haue so greate desyre feruent concupyscence towarde it that I am aferde to counsayle theym folowe it bycause of the scrypture that sayth Post concupiscentias tuas ne eas After thy concupyscences goo thou not ¶ I wyll make no lenger tale vpon this mater For if you rede my .xxvii. chapyter in whyche my wordes are that we now dyspute vppon I truste you shall not thynke theym so very farre out of the way but y t they maye be wryten without offence of Chrystes gospell well inough ¶ And also concernynge this word proude worldely countenauÌ„ce wherof we speke here vouchesaufe good readers to rede my .xxx. chapyter of myne apologye whych begynneth in the lefe .174 The .xi. chapyter HIs .xi. chapyter begynneth in the xxxvi lefe wherin fyrst he sheweth y t I reherse ryght and constre amysse thys worde of his And therfore ¶ You shall fynde my wordes good readers vppon these whole wordes that he reherseth here in the .xxxiiii. and .xxxv. chapyter of myne apologye of whyche to tone begyyneth fo 183 the tother begynneth fo 184. ¶ Here this man declareth that the worde of his boke whyche here also he well trewly reherseth do not importe that hym selfe sayeth y e thyng whych I by those wordes and amoÌ„g other by thys worde therfore afferme there that he sayth as of hym selfe But he sayeth that the wordes proue playne that he sayeth yt but onely of the reporte of mych other folkes thynkynge and not as of hys owne sayenge ¶ Surely neyther nowe nor in any place of myne apologye I neyther haue done nor intende to charge thys man that his mynde purpose was suche in his intent as the great lykelyhed of his wordes wold geue men occasyon to thynke But vn the tother syde that the wordes haue geuyn me good occasyon and suffycyent to saye as I there haue sayde who so rede the sayd two chapyters of myne apologye shal by the whole cyrcumstauÌ„ce of the mater very wel I suppose perceyue And you shall ouer that yf after those two chapyters redde you retourne to his owne declaracyon here in hys .xi. chapyter wel perceyue also that to kouer slyly that ouersyghte of his for surely I thynke yt was none other he leueth oute properly in one place this worde therfore wheruppon a good pyece of all the mater hangeth For in the ende of the .xxvi. lefe so thus he handeleth wylyly the mater And in that he sayth that I saye playnely those wordeâ— my seflfe he sayth playnely agaynste the â—etter of the sayde treatyse whyche ye that they haue punished many persoÌ„â— which mych peple haue iudged them to do vppon wyll and not that I sayd so my selfe ¶ Now good readers in this rehersall of hys own worde he reherseth his own wordes wrong For here he leueth oute as I told you the worde that maketh the mater Whyche he rehersed hym self in the whole context before For his wordis were not that they haue punished many persons whych mych peple haue iuged them to do vpon wyl but that therfore they haue punyshed many persons whyche mych people haue iudged them to do vppon wyl c. Nowe when he sayth hym selfe that they haue punyshed many therfore that is to wyt for the same cause and hathe before also shewed a cause of his owne dyuynacyon to hath vsed the same word therfore in y e same fasshyon before and this worde therfore which sygnifyeth for the same cause hath here in his laste clause nonecessarye place to the complement of the sentence folowyng it appereth that he sayth therin two thynges bothe that they therfore that is to say for y e same cause next before spokeÌ„ of the cause y t him self ther imagineth haue punished many and also that as he sayth yt so myche people iudged the same ¶ And this shall you the more clerely marke yf you tourne these wordes And therfore they haue punyshed many whyche myche people c. in to these wordê wherof the sentence is allone And for that cause they haue punyshed many whyche myche people c. ¶ And therfore that is to saye for that cause whych I before told you that is to wyt that you shold not perceyue thys poynte this man in hys laste rehershall as you haue herde bryngynge the thynge to the tryall lefte his therfore oute But reade my sayd two chapyters than as for the sentence of his open wordes I trust you shall byleue me As for the secrete meanyng of his mynde I pray you byleue hym For so that you byleue not the shrewd wordes of hys boke I wolde to chose you sholde byleue well of the good man hym selfe ¶ Now where he saith in y e .xxxvii. lefe that he thynketh I chaunge his mater bycause I wolde be lothe to haue yt reported that myche people take yt so veryly I chaunge not his mater But trouth yt is y t I am loth to haue that thyng so reported about For trewly y e report abrode is nought all though yt were not vntrew ¶ And were as for the farther maintenaunce of hys mater he sayth that yf I make serche therin to knowe the trouthe I shall fynde that myche people take yt so that many whyche haue ben punyshed for heresye the spyrytualtye haue done yt of no loue but of wyll for such euyll mynde as in the booke ys there ymagyned of them he hath of lykelyhed hym selfe made serche to fynde yt so For as for me though I go not aboute to serche that poynte of purpose yet I haue talked wyth many one in this meane whyle yet I thaÌ„ke god it is not my fortune to fynde out that same mych people that take yt so And yf there were myche people that so dyd yt were they re owne faute wherin I can not deuyse what the spyrytualty myght do to chaunge theym but onely praye god to mende theym And as for me yf there were myche people that so toke yt as I truste in god veryly there is not I wolde as my dutye were be surely very sorye for theym but in thys cause of trouth trewely I wolde not flater theym For though that sorte of people were neuer so myche in dede yet is the trouth in that poynt so clere agaynste theym that yf they re myndes were suche yt were bothe great shame for theym to saye yt and also great synne to thynke yt ¶ And surely that they re sayenge ys false and noughte in hys owne secrete iudgement you maye se good reders by this y t he laboureth so sore to put yt from hym selfe and wolde be so lothe to haue yt taken for hys owne And therfore whyle hym selfe thought they re sayeng so false he sholde
the fauour of his owne deuysynge he was lothe to scrape theym out but excuseth the dyuysynge of them thus And yf yt be sayde that these cases fall so seldome that yt ought lytle to be pondered so may it be sayd lyke wyse that yt falleth but seldome that the wytnesses in heresye stand in any fere of theym that they accâ—se ¶ Nowe yf thys answere of hys were good trew y t it happeth as seldome that the wytnesses stand in any such feare then he soyleth hiâ— owne reason hym selfe For than hathe he no cause to complayne for the law to kepe the wytnesse close made but for to serue in that specyal seldome case where it happeth such feare to fall ¶ And therfore is hys laste cause veryly not very shamefaste where he maketh as though the lawe were made generall to prohybyte all men that they sholde not haue knowledge of the wytnesses in no case ¶ And as for in this poynte of hys wheruppon all his whole mater hangeth to shew you that he sayth playn vntrew and groundeth all this gere of alwaye kepynge wytnesses close vppon a playne open lye I wyll for thys tyme take none other wytnesses agaynste hym but hys owne playne open wordes For in his seuenth chapyter of hys dyuysyon lo thus good readers he sayth And in the chapyter there that begynneth Statuta quedam it is decreed that yf the byshoppe or other enquerours of heresye se that any greate daunger myghte come to the accusourâ— or wytnes of heresye by the great power of theym that be accused that then they maye commaunde that the names of the accusours or wytnesse shall not be shewed but to the bysshoppe or enquerours or suche other lerned men as be called to them and that shall suffyce though they be not shewed to the party And for the more indempnyte of the sayde accusours and wytnes it is there decreed that the byshoppe or enquerours may enioyne such as they haue shewed the names of such wytnes vnto to kepe them close vppon payne of excommunycacion for dysclosynge that secrete without theyr lycens And surely this is a sore law that a man shal be condempned and not know the names of them that be causers therof ¶ Now good chrysten readers here you se playnely by his own wordes that the cause of that law is specyall serueth but where as there is feare that the wytnesses myghte stande in dayngeour by reason that the person detected were a man of great myght and power which happeth very seld and almost neuer tyll it bâ— well nygh paste remedy And therfore now you se by these wordes of hys owne that those other wordê of his are to shamfull where he now sayth here that y e law is generall forbedeth all men that they sholde not haue knowledge of the wytnesse in no case vpon my fayth except this good man se better how to salue this sore than I se I wolde not haue wryten such another poynt in my boke for more than all the paper coste and the prentynge to ¶ But nowe as I saye syth you se that al these greâ—es of his be gone saue in this one onely case of so great probable feare whyle he groundeth all the remanaunt vppon a greate open vnâ—rewth it is you se well a very seldome gryefe that is lefte For I neuer sawe nor to my remembraunceâ— redde nor trust in god neuer shall se the nede that euer any great man whoâ—â— folke neded to fere was condemned in thys realme for heresye saue onely syr Hugh olde castle ones in the tyme of kyng Henry the .v. that was than lorde Cobbam nor yet he neyther tyll that thorowe his heresye he fell to treason to and wolde haue ben the captayne of heretykes in a sodayne traytorouse insurreccyon ¶ And therfore as for thys harme that this good man telleth vs here that ryseth by the suite ex officio in heresye this poynte is as you se both reasonable yf it happed and in lawe suffycyently prouyded fore and yet besyde y â— so selde happeth here in this realm y t it was foly for hym to speke therof and yet no more toucheth in dede the suite ex officio thanne yf the suit were bygon and pursued by some great man that wolde fered not to professe hym selfe for accuser And thus is this case vtterly nothiÌ„g to purpose all the remanauÌ„t is as you se also by his owne wordes proued grounded vpon great vntrouth And therfore all this y t he hath sayd set asyde for nought let vs now se what other harme the good man fyndeth ferther Lo good readers therin thus he sayth Also syr Tho. More denieth not but that by reason of the law ex de hereticiâ— ca. Ad abolendam which is recyted in the .vii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse â— a man may be dreuen â—o a purgacyon wythout any offence in hym or be accursyd as yf he be notably suspected and yet not gylty as it may well be and yet he wyll not condescende that that lawe shulde be chaunged but sayth in fortyfyenge therof that veryly he thynketh that he whiche can not be proued gylty in heresy and yet vseth such maner of wayes that all hys honest neyghbours wene he were one therfore in theyr coÌ„scyence dare not swere that he is any other is well worthy to do some penaunce Truely thys is a merueylous persuasion that a maÌ„â—hulde be put to hys purgacyon bycause hys neyghbours dare not swere that he is no heretyke ¶ Now good readers bycause thys good man begynneth here to fortifye hys worde wyth that that I dyd not in my sayd .xl. chapyter of myne apologye denye that a man may be dreuen to a purgacyon wythout any offence in hym or be accursed as yf he be notably suspected yet not gylty I wyll fyrst brynge you forth myne own wordes wryten in the sayd chapyter and afterwarde than shall we se whyther he can take suche greate holde vppon my wordes as he wold it sholde seme Lo good readers these are my wordes folio .220 It may be somtyme albe it very seld it happeth that in heresie vpon other vehement suspycyons wythout wytnesses a man may be put to hys purgacyon and to penaunce also yf he fayle therof whyche thynge why so many sholde now thynke so harde a lawe as thys pacyfyer sayth there do I can not se nor those wyse men neyther that made the law And yet were they many wyse men and not onely as wyse but peraduenture many mo also in nomber than those that thys pacyfyer calleth many now that as he sayth now do fynde the faute For though it be alledged in the extra de hereticis yet was that law made in a generall counsayle And veryly me thynketh that he whyche can not be proued gylty in heresye and yet vseth suche maner of wayes that all hys honest neighbours wene he were one in dede and therfore dare not swere that in theyr
conscyence they thynke hym any other is well worthy to do some panauÌ„ce for that maner of byhauour wherby he geueth al other men occasion to take hym for so noughty ¶ Now good readers where thys man taketh me that I say a man may be dreuen to his purgacyon wythout offence you se well I say not so but I say that he doth a great offence well wurthy were to be dreueÌ„ to his purgacyoÌ„ to do penauÌ„ce to if he be not able to purge hym selfe but haue vsed hym selfe so lyke an heretyke in all good folkes opinioÌ„ y t he can fynd no good folke y t dare in theyr coÌ„scieÌ„ce swere that they thynke other wyse This saye I is a great offence and worthy to dryue hym to this poynte And this good man sayth that I denye not but that he maye by the law be dreuyn to it without offence ¶ And where as he sayth I denye not that he may be dreueÌ„ therto without wytnesse wherfore not I praye you For the suspycyons beyng proued by wytnesses to be notable and vehemeÌ„t wyll they not be cause sufficyent to dryue hym to pourge hym selfe of that infamy or els to do penauÌ„ce for bryngyng hym selfe therin to but yf there be wytnessys of hys expresse heretycall wordes No sayth this good man meruayleth y t I could thynk this any reason But why he sholdÌ„ so meruayle at y â— mater or why I shold be ashamed to thinke so therof telleth vs this good man no tale at all but onely sayth Truely thys is a meruelous persuasion that a man sholde be put to his purgacyon bycause hys neyghbours dare not swere that he is none heretyke ¶ Meruelouse god where was this mannys mynde whan he wrote these wordes do I say y t he shall be put to his purgacioÌ„ bicause his neighbours wyl not swere with him nay I say y â— whaÌ„ there be by wytnesses sworen byfore his face suspicions of heresie ê“ued vpoÌ„ hym thaÌ„ may thordinary put hym to such purgacyon to proue whyther they wyll swere wyth hym or no. For whan they wyll not but refuse it what mad man wold say that he shal be put to that purgacyon thaÌ„ whan he hath fayled therof and yt all redy paste This man speketh here as one that perceyued no pyece of the mater ¶ For where as I declare that he is in great offence y t so vseth hym self y t none of his honest neighbours dare swere that in theyr conscyences he is any other than an heretyke this maÌ„ taketh it as though they that sholde swere wyth hym in his purgacyon sholde precysely swere that he were none heretyke where as theyr othe shall not be what he is in dede but what them selfe thynke of hys othe they shall not swere that he is none heretyke but that they byleue that he hath sworen trew in denyeng tharticles sayd vnto hys charge Lyke as in the wageour of a lawe they shall not swere that the defendaunt oweth not the money but that they byleue that he swereth treuth ¶ I meruayle in good fayth y t thys good man handeleth thys mater in this maner without any tellynge why meruayleth so mych y t I wold thynke that law reasonable But surely though he coulde make me a proper reason for his part and my selfe another for the same syde also yet wolde I thynke my selfe ryght vnreasonable yf I shold vpoÌ„ his reason myn aduise counsayle this realme in a mater concernynge the conseruacyoÌ„ of the fayth to alter and chaunge that law that was made by so great aduyse by an whole generall counsayle of all chrystendome wherin there were I dowte it not men that had as good zele to kepe innoceÌ„tes out of trouble as any of vs twayne and mych more reason also than we both haue to But that point that I shewed hym in my apologye that the same prouisyon that is made in y e saw ad abolendaÌ„ was also made in a generall counsayle y e tale he letteth go by as though he herde it not ¶ But than he cometh forth wyth a worde or two of a ferther fawte in the law which eyther the man vnderstandeth not what in meneth or ellys is it herd for any man to thynke y t he meneth wel These are his wordê so And veryly the law is that theyr othe in that case shulde not be accepted for the sayde chapyter Ad abolendam is that yf a man be notably suspected of heresye that he shall purge hym selfe after the wyl of thordynarye or be accursed and so the purgacyon of hyâ— neyghbour wyll not serue Lette euery man therfore consyder whether the sayd law be indysferent or not And yf it be not lette them put to theyr hande to haue it broken And thynke veryly they shall deserue great thanke of god yf they tourne it to a more indyfferent waye then it is at nowe For vnder thys maner the moost innocent man that is may of malyce be reported to be suspected of heresye and be not so in dede and so be dreuen to hys purgacyon or be accursed and then there is another law that yf he in that case of an indurate mynde stande so accursed a yere he shal be punished as an heretike and that is by the law Extra de hereticis ca. Excâ—municamu◠¶ This prouysyon good readers y t he speketh whyche is in the lawe ad abolendam recited in the .v. boke of the decretalis in the tytle de hereticis y t such as were suspecte shold purge them selfe at the arbitrement discrecion of thordynary was as I before haue sayed afterward loked vppon alowed in the generall counsayle called consiliuÌ„ latranense as euery man may soone perceyue that wyll well consyder the paragraffe excoÌ„municamê° afterward in the same tytle For where as y e law there saith Qui inueÌ„ti fuerit sola suspitione notabiles nisi statim innoceÌ„tiaÌ„ suaÌ„ congrua purgatione moÌ„strauerint these wordê congrua purgatione be referred vnto the tother law ad abolendaÌ„ therof made byfore as bothe appereth by such doctours as wryte vpoÌ„ y e lawes also to hym y t wyl coÌ„sider it wel it wel appereth by y â— self text For in y e paragraf ExcoÌ„ be rehersed part of the very wordes of the lawâ— ad abolendam wherby we may se y t the counsayle there loked vpon that lawe And so was I saye that prouisyon which this man calleth so vnreasonable not onely made by pope Lucius the .iii. but after also made agayne by ratificacyoÌ„ by pope Innocent y e .iii. in an hose generall couÌ„saile And rede the stories who so wyll and he shall fynde bothe by Platiua and Cronica cronicaruÌ„ to that both this pope Lucius and thys pope InnoceÌ„t were very vertuouse men And here had it ben reasoÌ„ now therfore y t this good man sith he fyndeth in this point so gret a fawt in y e wittê of both these good popes in
in dede ¶ For where he sayeth that yf I wolde remember my self well how often the coÌ„stitucion prouincial made agaynste the statute de Silua cedua hath ben put in execucyon of late dayes to the gryefe of many lay men I wolde not haue sayde so generally that there is not any one constytucyon prouinciall that he speketh of to any mannes gryefe or grudge put in execucyon in the tyme of any of the prelates that are now lyuyng and affermeth that the same constytucyon hath of late in the tyme of dyuerse of the same prelates that nowe be ben put in execucion to the gryefe and grudge of many persons within this realm Fyrst as towchyng myne owne rememberaunce in good faith I can not remember one And as to his owne remembrauÌ„ce vpon which he affermeth it to haue ben done so lately to the grudge and gryefe of so many he shall perdon me though I byleue hym not tyll he proue it or at the leste wyse name them that haue had the wynnyng them also y t haue borne the losse so that I may my self proue whyther it be trewe or not For excepte he do the tone ellys haue I good cause in y e meane whyle in this poynte to gyue no greate credence to hym ¶ For fyrste I can scantely byleue that vppon the persons bare worde for allegacion of the coÌ„stytucyon prouyncyall his paryshen wold let hym haue it And yf there happed any man that wold yet am I sure they were so few that it were so dowble foly to lay that for any cause of diuisyon which were done bothe but by a few and also not without the parties wyll and rather of his own pryuate deuocioÌ„ thaÌ„ for any fere of coÌ„pulsioÌ„ ¶ Now if the person wold take it of hys parishon byforce I se the comen experyence therin suche that I dare boldely saye the whole paryshe wold not suffre hym And yet yf it were taken in dede neyther sholde the person enioy y e profyte nor the paryshen bere the losse but sholde at the kyngê comen lawe recouer a ryght large amendes For well ye wote his daÌ„mages sholde be tared hym not by .xii. prestes but by .xii. temporall men his costes by the kynges iudges that are no prestes neyther ¶ Now yf this man wyll saye that many of the personys haue in y e tyme of the prelates that now be lyuynge or that were lyuyng at the tyme that hym selfe wrote those wordes recouered in any of the spyrituall courtê the tythe of such woodê agaynst the statute by force of that prouinciall coÌ„stytucyoÌ„ I wyll se this man proue it ere I byleue hym in it For the dayngeour of that suit may be pâ—raduenture more than I suppose the person wyll put in perell for his tythes And also the paryshen maye soone stoppe the suit in the begynnyng by y e kyngê prohybycyoÌ„ wherby y e kyngê iudges shall se whyther the person sewe for suche tythes or not wyll not therin suffre hym to procede ¶ And therfore tyll thys good man make me better proues of this mater than hys owne bare sayenge he geueth me no cause agaynste so many lettes to the coÌ„trary therin to byleue his word But I durst wel warrauÌ„t it that if he come ones to the namyng of the partyes so that the specialtyes of the maters may be sought out and made appere you shall surely fynd it vntrewe ¶ Now than to mayntayne withall hys great word of confederacyes he bryngeth forth that some prestes say styll that those tythes mortuaryâ—s also for al the statutes be theyr dewtyes styl that they which pay them not be accursed I haue espyed thys good man is a man of sadnesse no great gamener For yf he were he wolde neuer be angry for an angry worde spoken by a man that is on the lesynge syde Hit is an olde courtesye at the cardys perdye to lette the leser haue hys wordes And in good fayth in thys mater I here no suche talkyng at all And veryly this deuyce of his to put thys for a cause of diuisyon is in my mynde a very chyldyshe thynge ¶ But thanne goeth he ferther that prestes make partycular confederacyes to mayntayne obytys prestes wages and to haue more at byryalles than they haue bene wont to haue or ellys to shewe them selfe not content that is to saye to aske more than they can gete and bycause they can not gete it shewe them selfe not content that is to wytte lowre and loke angerly and say they be not pleased Be not these hygh maters and mete for that heyghnouse name of confederacyes ¶ And yet goeth he ferther wyth an other heyghnouse confederacy that yf a preste haue a besynesse to do in some countreys other prestes wyll as it is sayde so confeder whyth hom at arbytrâ—nentes and other metynges or ellys make theym suche frendes pryuyly that the tother partye though he be of right good substaunce a haue also good ryghte yet shall he sometyme haue mych a do to obtayne yf ¶ Is not here good readers a wonderfull heyghnouse worke and well worthye y e name of confederacies of the spyrytualte that but in some countreys nor there neyther of any certayntye but as some saye some prestes in the besynesse of a nother preste wyll and yet but somtyme neyther at arbytrementes confedere wyth they re good worde to helpe forthe theyr felowe or ellys to make hym frendes Ye and thenne what a myschyefe he sheweth that enseweth therupon The tother party hath he sayth myche a do to obteyn his ryght and yet that but somtyme neyther But as for lese his ryght by they re meanes he sayeth not that any man dothe Be not these heyghnouse confederacyes thynges mete for thys man to make a boke of diuysyon for And yet as though he had very well acquyte hm selfe he knytteth yt vp wyth these wordes And these be some of the confederacyes of presâ—es that I ment of and not the gatherynge to gether of the clergye at the conuocacyons ¶ In good fayth I sawe not howe he sholde meane any other thynge nor that neyther well For the name of confederacyes taken to an euyll parte as thys man taketh yt dothe sygnyfye a metynge and gatheryng to gether and a determynacyoÌ„ of certayne euyll folke conspyrynge to gether aboute an euyll thynge to be done wyth a couenaunt and promyse by eche of theym made vnto other eche to stande wyth other therin Nowe where as at conuocacyons good men come to gether to do good and therfore he coulde not call theym confedâ—racyes as he nowe sayeth he ment not to do yet I douted somewhat whyther he so ment or not bycause the conuocacions be at the leste wise comen asseÌ„blies to gether wher of he myght hap I thought to geue a good thyng an euyl name But these maters y t he now speketh of I could not ymagyne that euer he ment to cal them confederacyes wherin he
neyther seeth assemblies nor can assygne and proue any conspyracy mutuall ê“myse in assystyng eche other about the procurement of any thynge at all good or bad For where as he sayth y t these be some of the confederacyâ—s that he ment I am sure no man douteth but that these be eyther all he coÌ„federacyes that he fyndeth or ellys at the leste wyse the greatest And thenne are those that he calleth here partyculare confederacyes so chyldyshe that in good faythe I myche meruayle that his herte could serue hym for very shame to speke of theÌ„ And theÌ„ the tother y t be taketh for generall coÌ„federacyes he neither seeth nor assygneth so mych as any asseÌ„bly about theym or promyse or abettement to procure and pursue theym And therfore though some prestes wold here or there speke of them as theyr owne affeccyon sedeth theym this is farre fro the nature and name of confederacye ¶ And yet when he hath al to gether done whyle he proueth nothynge at the vttermoste though all that he sayeth were as trew as yt is not but that they wolde fayne haue the tythe of tymber styll and that they wolde fayne haue the mortuaryes styll and that some wolde fayne haue greater wages and some wolde fayne haue more money at the beryalles then for all they re fayne wyllynge they can gete when they wold onely fayn haue yt and yet in dede gete nought of yt nor other folke nothynge lese to make now so great a mater of this and call yt an hyghnouse name of confederacyes ys as me semeth somewhat lyke to hym that wolde nedes haue an accyon agaynste his neyghbour bycause his neyghbours hoâ—se stode and loked ouer his hedge For he sayde that he sawe by hys countenaunce that he wolde haue eaten hys grasse yf he coulde haue goten to yt For as for that that the hedge letted hym was lytle thanke to hym for hys wyll was neuer the lesse And thus hys .xix. chapyter you se good readers howe lytle reason is in yt The .xx. chapyter HIs .xx. chapyter begynnynge in y e lxxvi lefe hath so lytle effecte substaunce in it and so faintly defendeth his formare mater whyche yt pretendeth to defende that I puroose to make no longe worke aboute yt ¶ For yf you rede fyrste his wordes as they lye in mine Apology fo 159 in the seconde syde begynnynge at these wordes And here me thynketh I myghte saye ye shal there good readers fynde that I reherse those wordê of his euyn whole wyth those wordes in them which he wold in the begynnynge of this his .xx. chapyter make men byleue that I had wythdrawen as though they were wordes of suche substancyall effect that I wold not haue it appere in my boke that he had wryten so piththely ¶ Afterwarde in a nother place where they be rehersed again fo 162 then preÌ„ter of lykelyhed left them out of ouersyght hast And surely they be not of so great weyght but y t if the authour had hym selfe left them out in his boke of dyuysyon yt had made lytle mater And yf he had ouer that left out the whole clause then hadde he lefte in hys boke one lye the lesse and hys boke the better by so myche For wherby proueth he that the spyrytuall rulers pretende theym selfe to be so clene and pure that there ys no defaute in theym but all in the people alone and in theym selfe no maner faute at all Where herde he euer any spyrytuall man saye thys by the whole spyrytualtye or by any one man therof ¶ They confesse theym selfe to be men and synners And they confesse and knowledge also that the very cause of thys chyefe myschyefe that nowe begynneth to make dyuysyon that ys to wytte the execrable heresyes whyche myschyefes thys good mannys euyll dyuyses with chaunge of good lawes were lykely to mayntayne yf men wolde folowe theym dyd bothe begynne and ys also sette forthe auaunced forward by those vngracyouse folke that are suche amonge the spyrytualtye as Iudas was amonge thapostles thys not in thys realme onely but in otheâ— countreys to As by frere Luther and preste Pomerane Otho the monke and frere Lambert frere Huskyn and Swynglius here in Englande Tyndale frere Barns George Ioy some other suche as with the sede of sedycyouse heresye haue so wen and set forth dyuysyon ¶ Thys thynge the spyrytualtye bothe knoweth knowledgeth And therfore they do not pretende as thys pacifier sayth they do that there hath ben no faute amonge theym but all amonge the people And therfore this good man where he sayeth that I lefte out thre wordes in that clause of his which yet I did put in indede hym selfe hadde somwhat amended hys mater with leuyng in of one lye the lesse yf he had left out the whole clause all to gether ¶ As to that y â— he sayth I chaunged his wordes in y e ende froÌ„ these wordê the syghte of grace that ys spoken of before wyll not appere into 〈◊〉 wordes the syghte of grace tha◠〈◊〉 spoken of byfore be wyth you noâ— and euer more amen therin he sayeth very trewe For syth â—e was fallen into preachynge I not onely in the fyrst place rehersed hym as he spake hym self but afterward also in the seconde place I toke the payne for hym to mende his collaâ—yon in that poynt make yt ende some what more lyke a sermoÌ„ with a good gracyouse prayour Then goeth he forthe and in the same lefe and the next folowyng he maketh a suspicyouse mater and can not tell what mynde I was of in chaungynge his worde spyrytuall rulers into this worde prelates But loke good readers vppon the place and you shal se that I dyd yt of good cause For I do not there saye that he sayth prelates but I saye there that peraduenture he wyll saye so And also besydes this that there yâ— no very great dyfference betwene these wordes the prelates and the spirytuall rulers the chauÌ„ge from this worde the spyrytuall rulers into this worde prelates semed me the more mete and more proper for the mater that the pacifier speketh in that place where he speketh of auâ—horite y t they pretende and obedyence that they clayme ¶ Howe be it rather then I wolde geue any cause of dyuysyon agaynst me to hym that vseth to make great dyuysyons vpon smale groundes I shall be content to geue hym his own worde agayne And therfore I pray you good readers euery of you meÌ„de your bokis in the stede of prelates in that place put in spyrytual rulers And wheÌ„ you so haue done y e chauÌ„ge shal for the mater not be very great yet so myche as it shal be shal more serue me then hym ¶ But yet to make me sory y t euer I was so farre ouersene as to take a way his gay golden worde of spyrytuall rulers from hym he begynneth as it were with a great thret â—
nothynge ellys but onely Bizances wrytynge and els wold also Salem haue thought that his owne wordes of exhortacy oÌ„ agaynst the great turke and his own rehersynge of that exposycyon of the apocalyps had bene styll the pacyfyers wordê agaynst myne apology ¶ And finally in the very ende to shew that he could write not in onely prose he endeth all the whole booke in this wyse with a gloryouse ryme And thus the gloryonse trynite haue in his kepyng bothe the and me and maketh Bizance praye for no mo but for theym two after the maner of the good manne â—ryme a mustarde maker in Cambrydge y t was wont to pray for hym self and his wyfe his chyld grace to make good mustarde no more ¶ And thus you se good readers y t where this man is so cuÌ„ning in greke wordê y t he can shortely fynd y e fawt where I fayle in y e nature of an apologye hym selfe in his own dyaloge so well coÌ„serueth the propertye of a dialoge expresseth it so naturally y t it could neuer be done more naturally not though he that wrote it were euyn a very naturall in dede ¶ But where he semeth to haue meruayled whan he redde myne apology that I wolde make obieccyons agaynst his wurke whyle he neuer wrote any thynge agaynste no booke of myne in good fayth yf he had I wolde neuer haue bene the more hasty but somwhat peraduenture y e lesse leste it myghte haue semed that some desyre of reuengynge myne owne dyspleasure had excyted me therto where as nowe no worldely profyte growynge to me thereby there is mych lesse cause for any good man to thynke that I wolde take the labour to wryte agaynst a wurke I wyst not whose but yf that it had at the leste wyse semed to my selfe that there were suche thynges therin as god wold geue me thaÌ„ke to geue meÌ„ warnynge to be well ware of them ¶ And where he sayeth he wyll not touch euery thyng partycularly but take an other order all out of order in answerynge therunto I can not let him iÌ„ his own boke to vse what order that beste maye serue his purpose But me thought and yet thynke that I my selfe toke a very playne open way whan the chapyters of his whiche I wold answere to I perused al waye euery thynge in order Whiche order while he foloweth not with me how you shall fynd it your self shall good reders iudge vpon y e ende But yet in the meane whyle at the fyrste face it semeth not that wyth lepynge out of order he meaneth to make you the mater very playne ¶ Nor all he sayth he wyll not answere neyther for auoydynge of tedyousnes And of trouth yf he haue as he semeth to signyfye any other bysynesse I thynke it be somwhat tedyouse to hym to answere all to gether ¶ Finally where he saith that he supposeth to make it appere as by hys answeres and by his consideracyons and his declaracyons that myne obieccyons are lytell to be pondered fyrste for his argumentes made agaynste the lawes wherby the fayth is preserued and heresyes kept vnder those argumentes all his answeres wyll neuer be able to mayntayne And as to y e remanaunt in good faith the better that he maye make you his innocent mynde appere the gladder a greate deale wyll I be therof nor nothynge purpose I therin by thys present booke to do ferther than to make you clerely perceyue that how well so euer hym selfe here declare hys good menyng my selfe was not causeles there moued to fynd fawte in his wrytynge The .ii. chapyter IN the .ii. chapyter begynnynge in the fyfth lefe he bryngeth forth y e fyrste consyderacyoÌ„ whiche is that I in the 89. lefe of myne apology confesse that murmur and discensyon agaynst the clergye was thaÌ„ all redy farre gone onwarde in hys vnhappy iourney that afterwarde in the .106 lefe of the same boke I bryng in a very darke senteÌ„ce wherby it appereth that I mene that the dyspleasure grudge bytwene them is in dede neyther so greate as he maketh it and yet growen to so greate as it is but euyn now of late But who so loke there in that place shall I suppose fynde it nothynge darke but yf it be suche a man as lyste not to vnderstande it ¶ And where I saye there that this dyuysion such as it is whyche is no thynge such as this man maketh it is not growen to so greate as it is but synnys that Tyndalys bookes and Frythys and frere Barons bygan to go abrode therin he wold seme to saye the contrary byddeth me loke better vppon the mater and I shall fynde it otherwyse And in dede with better lokyng theron I fynd it somwhat otherwyse For I fynde y e tyme of such encreace as I speke of mych shorter than I there assygne that by a greate deale For it was groweÌ„ the greater by thoccasyon of the selfe same boke of the diuysyon though y â— maker as hym selfe sayth and as I truste to intended it not of purpose And therfore where he saith that sith I confesse that there was diuysyon at the tyme of the makynge of myne apologye it appereth that I haue no mynde to haue it ceaced bycause that I seke not out the causes and deuise the remedyes veryly good readers I neuer toke accoÌ„pted my self for a man mete able to make a reformacyon of such two great partes as the spyrytualtye and the temporaltye of this whole realme be And veryly yf I knewe some suche great causes as thys man setteth forth for trewe whych I knowe for false and that I than knewe the wayes to reforme them to I wolde vse other wayes towarde it than sedycyouse slaunderouse bookes For as I haue expressely declared in myne apologye neyther neuer dyd I nor neuer entende to do put out abrode in prente vnder colour of reformacyon fawtes that were hatefull and odyouse to here eyther of the tone parte or of the tother and specyally so many at onys as yf they were all trewe were not all lykely to be remedyed at ones but the more parte for the whyle remaynynge lytell remedyed sholdâ— but make eyther parte to the other more odyouse and bothe partes more infamouse amonge suche other yf any suche any where be as wold be gladde and reioyce to here mych euyl spoken of them bothe ¶ And thys I saye all though that all were trewe And now wolde I mych lesse vse that maner in makyng rehersall of those thynges wherof many be false and vntrew and many other also very tryfeles the very chyefe thynges that thys pacyfyer desyreth to haue reformed be lawes all redy well made whyche he wold haue made wurse For where they haue ben by wyse men well deuysed for the repressyng of heresyes some by perleament in thys realme some by the generall counsayle of chrystendome those deuyseth he so to be chaunged now as the chaunge whyche he desyreth
though by goddes grace he desyreth not that it so shold yet out of dowte in dede sholde turne to thencoragynge of heretykes and encreace of heresyes wyth the mynysshement and decaye of the catholyke chrysten fayth wherupon wold not fayle whych almyghty god kepe from vs his greuouse indygnacyon vpon vs. And therfore god kepe vs from suche reformacyons ¶ Now to laye to me therfore as a greate fawte that I blame his boke in those vntrew some sayes that vnder colour of ceacynge dyuysyon excyte and set forth dyuysyon but yf my selfe coulde ceace it Whan suche bookes make it is myche lyke as yf he wold say that there ought no man to blame hym that wolde burne vp a nother mannes howse but he that wolde buylde it agayne ¶ And therfore with thys good reason of his be putteth me in remembraunce of an answere that a man of myne made ones myche after the same fashyon I had sometyme one with me called Clyffe a man as wel knowen as mayster Henry Patenson This Clyffe hadde bene many yeres mad but age had taken from hym the rage so that he was metely well waxen harmlesse among folke In to Clyffes hed came there some tyme in his madnesse such imagynacyons agaynst images as these heretykes haue in theyr sadnesse For lyke as some of them whych after fledde and ranne awaye and some fell to thefte and were caught pulled down of late vpoÌ„ LondoÌ„ brydge thinmage of the blessed martyr saint Thomas so Clyffe vpon the same brydge vppon a tyme fyll in talkynge vnto an image of our blessed lady and after suche blasphemyes as y e deuyll putte than in hys mouth and now a dayes bloweth out by y e mouthes of many heretykes whyche seme they neuer so sad be yet more madde than he he sette hande vppon the chylde in her arme and there brake of y e necke And afterwarde whan honest men dwellers vppon the brydge came home to myne howse and there blamed Clyffe before me and asked hym wherfore he brake of the chyldys necke in our ladys arme whan Clyffe hadde herde them he began to loke well and erenestly vpon theÌ„ and lyke a man of sadnesse and grauyte he asked theym tell me â—hys amonge you there haue you not yet sett on hys hed agayne No ê™ they we can not No ê™ Clyffe by y e masse it is the more shame for you Why speke you to me of it than ¶ And euyn thus answereth me now thys good man whyche where hys sedycyouse some sayes set forth diuysyoÌ„ and breke the chyldys necke rekeneth it a shame for me to fynde any fawte wyth hym for y e brekynge but yf my selfe coulde glew it together agayne ¶ And therfore where he sayth that I sholde haue proued that all the causes that he layeth as causes of dyuysyon be no causes of dyuysyon or ellys I sholde haue deuysed the remedyes albe it I haue answered hym therin all redy yet thys I saye therin ferther that I haue proued wel clerely y t the very chyef cause y t he sayeth is layd very vntrewly that is to wytte the mysse handelyng the people to theyr destruccyon vppon suspycyon of heresye Whyche cause yf it were as trewe as yt ys false were so weyghty that it were well wurthy to be layde for a mater of dyuysyon And whyle it is not trewe yet by suche kookes beynge blowen aboute in euery parte of the realme for trewe maye well mysse happe to make a dyuysyon whyle the dwellers in euery quarter aboute by credence geuen to the booke may at the fyrste face wene that though it be not so there as they dwell them selfe yet wene I saye that it were so in al other places Wherof though they shall by leysoure perceyue the contrary wyth serche yet they that aske no ferther questyon shall byleue it styll And so a rumour onys begonne and spredde abrode ys not after soone remoued ¶ Nowe as for hys other causes of thys dyuysyon dyuerseâ— I haue towched and shewed suffycyentely that they be not suffycyent But as for me to peruse hys whole booke of dyuysyon thorow was no parte of my purpose For yf those thynges that I dyd towche hadde semed to me tollerable I wolde in good faythe haue bene lothe to haue towched theym eyther In whyche whyle with hys consideracyons and declaracyons he goeth about now to shew that he than ment none harme I wyll not therin mych hynder hym but be gladde rather to forther hym in thexcuse of hys menynge and so dyd I as I haue sayd euyn in myne apologye to But though I be glad to excuse his own mynde in the menyng yet can I not excuse his vnwyse folowynge of false wyly counsayle in the doynge The .iii. chapyter THe .iii. chapyter coÌ„teynyng hys secoÌ„d consyderacyoÌ„ rede and coÌ„syder it who so lyste for I can se nothynge in it to be consydered by me For in effecte in conteyneth no thynge ellys but that he wolde the clergye shold as myche as they may auoyde all accasyon of murmure and grudge of the temporaltye towarde them but yf it be pharysaycal grudge ye and though the dede that they sholde forbere were good in whych poynt bycause that one poynt wolde waxe a songe worke I wyll fall in no dyspycyons But in as farforth as he geueth any man good counsayle and wysheth all thynge well so farforth shall he and I not varye but and he call me to hym I wyll syt and pray for yt wyth hym ¶ But yet where he sayth in th ende of the chapiter that I endeuour my selfe very myche to oppresse al them that wyll shew suche thynges of the spyrytualtye in dede some suche as haue made suche lyes I haue tolde yt theym But as for any oppressyon let hym proue one and let hym call that one .xx. And if he can ê“ue none as I wote well he caÌ„ not then good reders let hym be beleued therafter ¶ More ouer where he sayth that I in my mynde proue yt an intollerable defaute in the people for mysse iudgynge the clergy where as I thinke they haue no cause so to do and that therin I leue theym as though all the whole cause and pryncypall defaute were in the temporaltye wherin he sayth that my iugement is farre deceyued in this poynte good reder he sayth somwhat to me yf he sayde trew And sure yf he thought that he wrote herein trewe then wysedome wolde he sholde haue wryten myne owne wordes in And yf he fered that yt wolde be founden false then honestye wolde that he sholde haue leste hys owne wordes oute But veryly good readers and he seke thys seuen yere he shall in all myne apologye fynde you no suche wordes of myne But he shall fynde farre the contrarye For I do there I wote well in suche places as I shewe that men were vnreasonable that wolde take thys thynge or that thynge suche as I reherse of hys bryngynge forthe for any reasonable cause of dyuysyon there
haue sayd this vnto him sinnys to glose his fyrste wordes wythall And yet I meruayle that he coulde thynke theyr sayeng worth the reheâ—synge agayne For who can byleue y t any spyritual man wold be so madde as to call worldely honour vsed to goddê dishonour the honour of god I can scant byleue that any laye man wolde so tell hym at the leste wyse not wyth that adieccyon that he now putteth new therto ¶ But now yf it so be that vn the tother syde all spyrytuall men wold wyth one voyce to gether call the honour of god that wordly honour that worldely folke do to the chyrche and vnto spyrytuall persons for the deuocyon that good lay men bere to god and vnto spyrituall ê‘sons for goddis sake by reason of theyr holy orders and honorable romes that they bere in Chrystes chyrche though some of theym as this man sayth sometyme do not they re dutye therin but leue some parte of theyr dutyes towarde goddes honour vndone therfore yet for the deuocyon of the temporall persons that for goddis honour do iâ— they may all well call yt goddes honour in dede And therfore is thys good man in that poynte full answered as solemne a mater as he made therof ¶ But nowe concernynge hys formare wordes of the agrement of all spyrytuall folke to gether in y e mayntenaunce of theyr wordly honour for al they re pryuate dyspleasures and dyssensyons in other thynges among theym selfe wyth whyche he cometh in after here agayne and referreth hym to the commen opinyon of mych parte of the people bothe spyrytuall and temporal whether laye men so saye or not I saye that though al men so sayde yet is no man at dyuysyon wyth theym therfore For there is no cause wherfore any man shold For yt is none vnreasonable thynge that syth those thynges whych thys man speketh of that is to wyt those spyrytuall dygnytees to whyche he sayth suche worldely honour apperteyneâ—h are lawefully theyr owne eche of theym sholde in all laweful ways and such as are by no law prohybyted helpe assâ—ste other to kepe them though there be for pryuate maters of theyr owne varyaunce suyt betwene theym And thys may they with better coÌ„scyeÌ„ce do eche for other than eche of them for them selfe For in thys that they do for other is there not the synne of ambycyon that thys man here speketh of And this is the parte not onely of spyrytuall men relygyouse and seculare bothe but of euery good temporall man to and not onely to do so for them but euery man also for other And therfore what reason hadde those same some that so tolde this man yf there were any some suche in dede to take thys thynge for any cause of dyuysyon or why dyd not he so rather tell theym than putte they re founde tale in hys boke ¶ But than one pretie pyece he hath of two partes by whych he weneth that the spyrytualtye can in no wyse escape but that they muste nedys be betrapped in the tone For when he hathe sayde that the people saye that spyrytuall men be sometyme neglygent in kepynge or grauntynge charyte or in spedy doynge of iustyce or in duely mynystrynge some of the seuen sacramentes or in playne dylygent instructynge of the people then with a proper pyece of two partes thus he concludeth the mater And yf yt be not so as the people saye then are the spyrytuall rulers bounden to helpe the people oute of that iugement or ellys they be not wythout offence theym selfe And on the tother syde yf yt be as the people saye â— then are spyrytuall men bounden to reforme yt ¶ As for thys two handed sworde some yonge lustye freee wold boldely bete of wyth a two handed staffe and tell this man agayne that yf the peple as he putteth for the tone parte sayde in such thynges not trew than seeth he not nor no man elles neither what the spyrytnal rulers coulde do to put theym oute of that iudgement but tell theym nolite iudicare et non iudicabimini and so wyll that syde of the sworde do this man lytle seruyce And then on the tother syde yf the people in these thynges saye trew as yt is well lykely they do than trewe yt is that the spyrytull men be bounden to reforme yt But than is yt as trew agayne that the thynge beynge but suche as this man reherseth that ys to wyt neglygence but in some in doyenge of some parte of theyr dutye and that also but sometyme is no cause of dyuysyon to sette the whole temporaltye agaynge theym all and that syde of the sworde y e frere wold wyth this ende of his staffe bete harde vnto this mannes own hed ¶ Now goeth this man farther fo 27. and sheweth that myne answere to his wordes whyche you reade in the .xix. chapyter of myn Apologye be very darke by the reason that I vse therin so often this word Some saye whyche is he sayth done after a raylyng fashion But as you know wel good reders I haue takeÌ„ y t word Some say of his boke in whyche I redde yt so often that yt falleth somtyme into my penne ere I be ware ¶ And as for the raylynge fashyon yf I durste be bolde to tel so sadde a man a mery tale I wolde tell hym of the frere that as he was prechyng in the countrey spyed a pore wyfe of the paryshe wysperynge wyth her pew felowe and he fallynge angrye therto cryed oute vnto her alowd holde thy bable I byd the thou wyfe in the rede hode Whyche when the houswyfe herd she waxed as angry agayn and sodaynly she starte vppe and cryed oute vnto the frere agayn that al the chyrch rang theron mary syr I beshrew his harte that bableth moste of vs both For I do but wysper a word with my neighbour here thou hast babled there al this houre And surely good readers saue for lettynge of the word of god in this good mannys sermone I durste well in the same worde Some saye beshrowe hym and beshrowe hym agayne that moste hathe raysed therwyth of thys good man or me For reade my wordes there when ye wyll and you shall fynde that I wyth that worde do but in a maner playe wyth hym But by saynte Mary he how well so euer he ment hys wordes wyth his many Some sayes brynge good men in slaunder and obloquye of the people and peraduenture in parell to wyth vntrewe surmysed talys of mysse handelynge folke for heresye and all coloured vnder some sayes to make the lyes seme somewhat lykely Suche shrewd Some sayes lo be no mery sportynge but be sadde and erneste rude raylynges in dede ¶ Then he toucheth myne answere made in the sayde chapyter of myne apology double confuteth yt y t I saye that he hath herd some laye men say the contrary For fyrste he sayth he neuer herd lay man say to hym the coÌ„trary but that al y
sometyme mo to yet not one of them al wil openly be called an accuser but wil be content to be taken and knoweÌ„ for a wytnesse called in by the court sworen and to tell the trouth as of an necessyte not as accusers of theyr neyghbour of theyr own offre wyllyngly what shall the ordynary do then ¶ Agaynst this parel this good maÌ„ geueth vs this remedy If they wyll not be hys accusers yt is to thynke that they do yt of some malyce or crafte rather then for the trouth of the mater ¶ I wene good readers that there is no man but when he hereth this answere he wold wene there were yet for the farther remedye some other more mater behynd For what madde man wolde thynke that this were a suffycient remedy so fully prouyded For thys mater that yf there were any heretyques they could not fayle so fully to be detected by thys waye of accusacyon that there sholde nede no suyte ex officio bycause they that knowe yt maye eyther holde theyr peace yf they lyste or ellys yf they wyll algates detecte any man maye be taken and accepted for accusers and yf they wyll not openly be taken so then be taken for malycyouse and craftye and therfore byleue theym not but bydde theym lyke false harlottes hense and go gete theym home ¶ But howe shall we do yet for one thynge For thoughe that they re refusynge to bycome open accusers were a coniecture to lede vs somewhat to byleue them false or malycyouse yet were yt not so great a coniecture on that syde nor so sure but that we might be therin deceyâ—ed and they bothe charytable and trew and the man y t they detected a very perylouse heretyque in veâ—y dede And then for oughte that this man deuyseth yet we sholde nede the suyte ex officio to buste oute this mater better or ellys that man that they detected shall yf he be suche as they sayde he was teache heresyes styll and do myche harme a great whyle ¶ Also good readers thys good man hathe no suche cause so sore to mysse truste suche a denouncer onely bycause that he refuseth to be taken of his owne offre for a partye and an open accuser consyderynge that he refuseth not to be broughte in by processe and depose in y e parties owne presence as a wytnesse and wyll be content that his deposycyons hym selfe standyng by be publyshed redde openly byfore y e world And therfore any wyse man wold wene y t this good man to proue that we shold not nede the suyte ex officio yf he wolde make hys suyte by waye of accusacyon suffycyent to serue in the stede he had nede to haue diuised some â—arther thing theÌ„ this But this good hoste of ours prayeth you for this feste to be mâ—ry with such as you haue for here is al your fare sauyng that to make vs lyke this meate the better fyl our belyes somwhat the better ther wyth he geueth vs therto one lytle messe of sauce to it in shewynge vs a cause wherfore it is good reason that we shold geue theym no credeÌ„ce that detecte a man of heresy and yet wil refuse to become his opeÌ„ accusers And y e cause that he geueth vs is this Fâ—r vf he say sayth this good man that he dare not for â—ere of his lyfe auow yt I haue shewed a meane in the seueÌ„th chapyter of the sayd treatyse how the wytnesse may be saued from dauÌ„ger as by shewyng the mater to the kynge and his counsayle and that theâ— it is not to suppose nor to thynke but that they wyll prouyde suffycyently for the indempnyte of the wytnesses in that behalfe ¶ Nowe good readers herde any man euer any reason made for suffycyent by any man that any reason had in his hedde and handeled so insuffycyently Be this wyse reason he maketh as though no man detectynge any man of heresye excepte he surmysed the mater of falshed malyce wolde refuse to be hys open accuser for any thynge saue for onely fere nor for no lesse fere neyther then onely the fere of deth And then for that fere he hath as he sayth diuysed suffycyent remedye ¶ Now that none other thynge can set a man to make hym selfe a partye and an open acâ—user but onely fereâ— I wene there wyll no man graunte hym and that no lesse fere then onely fere of deth and adde fere of all bodyly harme thereto that wyll I wene euery wyse man lesse grauntâ— hym ¶ But nowe let vs consyder whether the fere that hym selfe graunteth to be suffycyent to let a detectour from takynge vppon hym to be an accuser be so suffycyently prouyded for by thys good man that yt muste nedes be that by hys prouysyon that fere shall be quyte gone For yf that yt maye be that all hys prouysyon not wythstandynge the mannys fere maye styll remayne in his harte then may yt also be perdy that be hys deteccyon neuer so trew yet he maye for that fere refuse to make hym selfe a partye and become an open accuser ¶ Consyder nowe therfore what is the remedye that he hath dyuysed in his seuenth chapyter He reherseth yt here agayne that vppon coÌ„playnt made to the kynge and his couÌ„sayle it is not to suppose nor thiÌ„ke but y t they wold prouyde sufficieÌ„tly for thindemnyte of the wytnesse in that behalfe ¶ I am content to graunte hym for the whyle that they wyll suffycyently prouyde for thindempnyte of the wytnessys But fyrst all this prouysyon is in our case here very nedeles And his prouysyon in the seuynth chapyter of his dyuysyon is brought in for another maner of mater that ys to witte agaynst a prouisyon made in the spyrytull lawe by whyche yt is there deuysed that in some case for drede of perell that may fall to the wytnesses the ordynary shall not suffre the ê‘tie that is detected to knowe who hath wytnessed agaynste hym And nowe wolde this good man bygyle his readers in this chapyter make theym wene that that specyall prouysyon in that one specyall case whych prouysyon I wene was yet in Englande neuer put in vre were a comen order in euery mannys case But consyder good reader that our case is now that the maÌ„ refuseth not to be a wytnesse but is contente both to be sworen when he is as a witnesse called in and to auowe then hys deposycyon trewe byfore the iudge in the partyes awne presence and if he maye so be vsed as a wytnesse wyll neyther be afrayed nor a shamed nor desyre to putte the kynges counsayle to any busynesse aboute the prouysyon of his indempnyte at all And therfore in our case thys good mannys prouysyon deuysed for wytnesses shall not nede for our wytnesses yf he lette the suyt ex officio procede and receyue them as onely witnesses ¶ But on the tother syde yf this good man putte a way that suyt and wyll receyue no man
as I sayde before euery wyse man well woteth there are many other affeccyons bysyde all suche feare that lette men to become accusers in heresye and yet letteth them not to do otherwyse truely and charytably theyr dewtye both in secrete detectyng of them and also in open berynge wytnesse agaynst them whan they be called forth and coÌ„maunded by y e court to depose that wyll neuer as I sayed of theyr owne offre make theym selfe a party and openly become theyr accuser ¶ Now what if there were but two wyâ—nesse of the mater suche as were well able playnely to proue y e thyng yf neyther of both maye be herd but yf the tone shold become thaccusour whan the tone were made party thaÌ„ were the profe lost But we shal not nede myche I warraunt you to care for this case For of theÌ„ both you shal haue neyther nother that wyll ¶ How be it yet hath this good maÌ„ at last founden a good way for that For lo syr thus he sayth And than yf the wytnesse wyll not auow it but an other wyll geue credence to hym and auoâ— it than it semeth reasonable that they that wyll geue credence therto and wyll reporte it be taken aâ— accusers takynge those wytnesses for theyr warraunt yf they be denyed ¶ If he thynke it lykely that none of them wyll become accusours that were present and herde it them selfe than is it yet lesse lykely that he wyll become the accusour that hereth it but at a seconde hand And therfore me thynketh that this deuice is not mych wyser than the deuice that a good felow deuised ones for his neyghbour that had a greate hylloke in his close whiche for planynge of y â— ground he couÌ„sayled hym to haue it away Mary ê™ his neyghbour I muste carye it than so farre that it were lesse losse to me to geue away y e close all Mary neyghbour ê™ the tother I shall soone fynde a way for that For I shal deuise a pronisioÌ„ y t it shal be had away yet neuer caryed hense For euen there as it lyeth lo dygge me a great pytte cary it neuer ferther but berye it euen in that Where shall I thaÌ„ lay that hepe ê™ his neyghbour that cometh out of the pytte At that the tother stâ—dyed a lytle But whan he hadde well bythought hym mary ê™ he euen digge another greate pytte vnder that and bery me that hepe there ¶ So this man wyll in any wyse lo haue awaye this hyllocke this suyte ex officio that he sayeth dothe here myche hurte howe shall we haue yt away say we without yet mych more hurte Good remedy sayth this good man shortely shall I deuyse Putte accusers in the stede of that suyt and they shall do myche better who shall be thaccusers say we Mary sayth he they that here them They wyll not say we bycome accusers in no maner case No wyl they sayeth he then be they but false shrewes what remedy then say we to supply the sayde suyt A redy waye sayeth he take some other that heareth the tother that herd the heretike speke He will myche lesse bycome accuser saye we then they that herd yt theym selfe what hath this good man farther to saye then bydde vs take then a nother that wyll And euer we folowe styll say we shall neuer fynde hym and that word he denyeth not but alwaye byddeth vs go gete one And now yf the second man were coÌ„tent or the fyftenth after yet hath this man marred all thys mater with one thynge For you wote well that yf y e wytnesse that sayth he was present and herd it his owne eares wyll refuse to bycome thaccusar hym self this good man wyll that y e ordynary shall take hym for malycyouse or false Now than yf we gete with longe labour some other man to accuse yet hym that herde it and wold not be thaccuser hym selfe syth the bysshoppe must take hym alwaye for malycyouse or false in the mater he maye neuer accept hym therin for a wytnesse For yf we take hym for frauduleÌ„t maliciouse to the partye this mannes credence is tenne tymes lesse in all reason than his is that afterwarde deposeth to his harme where he was fyrst forsworeÌ„ whyle he wold fayne haue done hym good and that man wolde not this good man byleue after in no wyse ¶ And thus bothe for the tone cause and the tother for lacke of an accusour and credence of the wytnes you se playnely good readers that by this mannes deuice yf we dygge vp and bery this hylloke ex officio we shall whan we haue all done say he what he lyste make leue that neuer wyll than be voyded as great an hyllokâ— of heretykes in the stede ¶ And this you se good readers that this good man sheweth vs yet no leâ— but that for any thynge that he sayth here yf the suit ef officio were chauÌ„ged as he wolde haue it and in stede therof truste all vnto accusours of whyche for any thynge that he deuiseth we were lykely to fynde few as I feare me veryly rather none at all it were well lykely to come to passe as I sayd that y â— stretes sholde swarme full of heretykes ere euer they were conueÌ„ted and repressed by his way Of which sayenge of myne as mych meruaile as he saith he hath yet sheweth he nothynge as you se wherfore he shold meruaile of it nor to the thynges that I preue it wyth he no more answereth than though he neuer herd them ¶ Whyche dealynge of his you may clerely perceyue euyn by the very same lefe wherin I wrote those wordes of which he meruayleth so mych and hath so lytell cause For there lo my wordes be these For surely yf the conuentynge of heretykes ex officio were lefte chaunged into another order by whyche no man sholde be called be he neuer so sore suspected nor by neuer so many men detected but yf some man make hym selfe party agaynste hym as hys accusour the stretes were lykely to swarme full of heretykes byfore that ryght few were accused or peraduenture any one eyther These were lo my wordes in myne apology against which you haue herd what he sayth Than bycause he shold not nede to meruayle at the mater I shew by by what maketh me so to say For there it foloweth thus ¶ For what so euer the cause be it is not vnknowen I am sure that many wyll gyue to a iudge secrete informacyon of such thinges as though they be trew yet gladly he wyll not or perâ—â—uenture dare not be opeÌ„ly knoweÌ„ that the mater came out by hym ¶ Consyder here good readers that as to bycome open accusars I speke here of two lettes One y â— men wyll not another that some men dare not And yet that they dare not I put as the more rare more seldome Now cometh thys good answerer and for the more seldome y t is to wyt
bere wytnesse that there is lytle witte therin and lesse good wolde growe therof yf folke wolde folowe his inuencyon and make of the lawes a chaunge ¶ Now that you haue good reders hâ—rd what we saye bothe before Now shall you se how substancially this man defendeth his fyrst wordes agayne These are so in this xvi chapyter of hys newe boke hys wordes Nowe by reason of this obieccyon I wyll speke somwhat father in thys mater then I dyd in the sayde treatyse And fyrste I wyll saye thus that yf ys to me a great meruayle to se mayster More so faire ouerseen or elâ—ys yf he be not oâ—â—rseen therin that then he wolde yf he coulde deceyue other and make theym so farre ouerseen to byleue that yt shulde be one lyke reason of a periured wytnesse that wyll loke lyke a lambe and saye contrarye to that he hathe deposed before and of a wytnesse that cometh to depose in a matter that he was neuer yet sworne vppon For when a wytnesse ys broughte in that was neuer sworen vppon the mater byfore the iudge maye not by the lawe refuse hym nor iudge any defaulte in hym oneles he knowe a suffycyent cause hym selfe in that behalfe or that the partyes do alledge yt but he muste byleue that he ys honeste good and indyffâ—rent tyll the contrarye be shewed as euery man ys in charytye bounde to do of hys neyghbour But when a wytnesse hathe deposed in the courte and then wyll offre hym selâ—e to depoâ—e to the contrarye that he sayde byfore the iudge maye wyth good conscyence mystruste and thynke that he doth yt of lyghtnes of mynde hatered or for corâ—upcyon of money ¶ If I were in thys poynte ouersene I nede not greately to be ashamed of the ouersyghte For then hathe there bene many suche other men ouersene also as I wolde not wyshe to be wyser And I no more entende to deceyue other men in thys mater thanne many other haue entended that vsed and allowed thys thynge that I defende now byfore such men as wyth the coÌ„dycyon that I were neuer worse I wolde neuer wyshe to be better This maÌ„ maketh as though it were great shame for me to liken to gether a person ones periured and a person that was neuer yet ones sworen I wolde in dede be a shamed to lyken theym to gether in euery poynte all though there were no more dyffereÌ„ce betwene theym but that the tone had a longe nose and the tother a shorte But I am not mych ashamed to say that for some purpose where he speketh of the tone I maye speke of the tother and lyken them well ynough to gether For I may say as I said that lyke wise as he that hath for sworen hym selfe may fayne hym selfe to saye trew and loke lyke a lambe and yet be a woulfe in dede euyn so I saye maye he that neuer was sworen byfore ¶ Ye sayth thys man but yet these two be not lyke For he that was neuer sworen there is no cause to mystruste nor presume that he wyl play the woulfe in a lambes skynne But he that hath bene forsworen is of reason to be mystrusted and yt is to be presumed y t he wyll play the woulfe in a lambes skynne ¶ Marke yet in the meane whyle y â— yf I could make no father answere yet hadde I wonne and he loste For his fyrst wordê were in his boke of dyuysyon that he that confesseth hym selfe forsworen shold in no case be receyued to swere agayne the contrarye bycause that though there seme a good cause to byleue hym in his seconde othe yet yt maye be that he dothe but fayne and I sayde so may he to fayne and dyssemble that neuer was sworen byfore And then yf the onely power and habylyte to fayne were a cause suffycient to put any oue man from berynge witnesse vppon his othe euery man were by reason repelled for euery man ys able to fayn This was as you se y e thynge that I then sayde Whyche thynge neyther this maÌ„nor any man elles is able to confute nor proue the forsworen man and the man vnsworen vnlyke in the poynte that I lykened them that is to wit in powre and abylyte to fayne And farther then that went not I. For I had no farther cause in answerynge hym there whyle he wente no farther there nor sayde none other but that he that was forsworen may fayne And nowe reade your selfe his wordes and loke whyther I say trewe ¶ But nowe thys beynge proued as yt is proued playne that he hathe a fall in those wordes whyche he spake byfore let vs a lytle se whyther wyth thys leysour after hys mater agayne consydered a freshe he haue caughte any better holde now And surely me thynketh not one whyt ¶ For where hys newe reason resteâ—h in thys that he whyche confesseth hym selfe ones forsworen is by reason mystrusted as one not onely to be able to swere false and wylyly cloke hys falshed vnder a colour of trouthe but also presumed that he so wyll do in dede to thys I saye that he sayeth trouthe as longe as there is no greater presumpcyon on the tother syde to serue for hys seconde othe But when the case happeth that there is as yt happeth in the case of this lawe than ys the presumpcyon that he wyll swere false gone as I shewed you byfore And then that presumpcion by a greater presumpcion beyng purged this man forworne and the man vnsworn are in the thynge that I resembled them for waxen well lyke agayne And that the sayde presumpcyon ys purged I shewed you byfore in that it is now a greater presumpcyon for his seconde othe that he wyll not foâ—swere hym selfe to the parell of his frende and hym selfe to ¶ Then goeth he farther and enforceth his reason with the reason of the lawe before y e peragraph Licet was made And therin thus he sayth In so mych that byfore that parag Licet was made the iuge myght none otherwise haue done of iuâ—â—yce but to haue refused to haue taken any farther examynacyon of hym And yf he hadde and the other had sayde contrarye to that he hadde sayde byfore hyâ— saynge hadde ben voyde in the lawe ¶ And thys thynge wherwyth he thynketh his reason made the sâ—renger maketh his reason a great deale febler For whyle the generall rule of refusynge suche wytnesse in all cases was made so longe byfore it appereth playnely that necessyte found the faute and caused oute of the generall rule this case to be made an excepcyon and so the lawe made by better delyberacyon ¶ And in such other horible crymes the same lawe is vsed in temporall courtê and was also before that law made by the chyrche ¶ But agaynste all thys yet thys man maketh me this reason what the makers of the sayde peragragh ment to put into the dyscrecyon of the iudge that yf he saw by euydent tokens that yt is not done of lyghtnesse
not agree nor stande to gether And therfore me thynketh yt wolâ—e not be so lyghtly passed â—ueâ— as mayster More doth passe yt ouer For yt is a dangerous thynge to fall into the lefte censure of the chyrche ¶ There were two causes for whyche I answered hym not one a generall cause concernynge all hys maters of lawes of the chyrche wherin he fyndeth fautes of whych I shall speke afterwarde A nother specyall cause there was concernynge thys excoÌ„munycacyon And that was that me thought yet thinke that he spake therin so chyldyshely that I was a shamed on his byhalfe to medle with yt and to make open hys chyldyshe handlynge therof ¶ But nowe syth I se hym compte for so great a conqueste that he put me to sylence therin what purpose can he dyuyse for whyche I sholde haue answered any thynge to that poynt had I made any professyon to proue euery worde wronge that he sayd in all hys hoke he knoweth that I sayde not that I wolde medle but wyth those certayne thynges that I there speke of ¶ But now suppose that there were in that law such faute as he allegeth what could myne answere ameÌ„de the mater or his boke of diuisyon either If men were accursed as he mysse taketh it could my boke or his boke take away the curse No but we may put the parlyament in mynde to make a lawe His boke alone is as able to put theym in remembraunce therof as hys and myne to gether And yet for that poynte neyther nedeth myne nor hys neyther For the parlyament hath made all redy a lawe for these inquysycyons Whych yf thy myght lawfully make in such forme as they haue as I am sure they myght theÌ„ am I sure y t they fall not in excoÌ„munycacyon for it Now if they myghte not laufully make it therby fel ther in what could the parlyameÌ„t farther adde vnto it that might deliuer them of yt And therfore I can not in good fayth se to what purpose he wrote of that poynte hym selfe ¶ No but thys lawe is one great cause of dyuisyon betwene the spyrytualtye and the temporaltye That wolde I very fayne wyt howe For temporall men be not I wote well so farre ouersene as to be angry wyth the spyrytual men here now for that lawe that a pope made at Rome ere they were borne And the spyrytuall men haue also as lytle cause agayn of any grudge agaynst the temporaltye for the mater And therfore why he sholde put yt in hys boke of dyuysyon for a cause of diuisyon I can dyuyse no reason Foras for that that he wolde shold seme a cause here is to vnresonable where he sayth As long aâ— that law siddeth so vnrepelled sâ—me prestes that se yt wyll saye that they that do agaynste yt be accursed and so may lyghtly fall theâ—by into a wrongfull and vntrâ—w iudgement whych though yt be no great offence oneles yt be of pryde by dyspysynge of the temporall power in that behalfe yet yt wolde be eschewed And also yf they that be so noysed to be accursed here of yt they wyll be dyscoÌ„tented And so grudges and varyaâ—nces maye ryse and encrease by occasyon of yt ¶ Thys is a very colde tale as dede as euer was dore nayle For before hym selfe broughte in thys babelynge of his owne about that lawe whych babelyng is yet as I haue shewed you to no purpose at all I neuer herd any maÌ„ talke any such worde of that lawe in my dayes nor in good fayeth no more I wene dyd he neyther ¶ Nor I dare saye he hereth no where yet any prestes saye that the iustyces of the peace be accursed for enquyrynge agaynste heresyes none I dare saye but suche prestes as be heretyques And therfore thys whole tale of his saue for the malice that yt meaneth ys euyn a very tryâ—lynge ¶ For as for y e mocyoÌ„ y t he maketh so often to haue that lawe repelled bycause yt is he sayth agaynst the lawes of the realme excepte he mokke I wote nere what he meaneth For yf the realme here may repell yt theÌ„ by y t the law is here made to the coÌ„trarye yf yt were contrary as yt is not yt is repelled all redy And yf he thynke that the realme here can not reâ—ell yt thenne wereto wryteth he and prenteth that pyece in his boke of dyuysyon as a thynge for whyche the temporaltye the spyrytualty of thys realme sholde fall in varyauâ—ce for where neyther the makynge nor the repellynge lyeth in neyther nother of theyr handes ¶ But surely the repellyng though yt be the thyng that is spokeÌ„ of is not yet the thynge y t ys ment in thys mater as yt aypereth in these wordes And therfore me thynketh yt wolde not be so lyghtly paâ—sed ouer as mayster More doth passe yt ouer For yt is a daungeroâ—s thynge to fall into the lefte censure of the chyrche And yf yt be sayde that the sayde lawe ys voyde bycause the chyrche hadde no authoryte to make yt And that yt is therfore not to be fered And I wyll yet say therto that though yt were voyde that yet as longe yt standeth so not repelled yt were good to eschewe it and not to fal wylfully into the dauÌ„ger of yt and therfore yt were better to repelle yt then to lette yt stande styll and rather do hurte then good ¶ Here you may se good readers that where as otherwyse to repell that law then it is repelled lyeth not in oure handes yf oure lawe were agaynste yt and where as of â—routhe yt nedeth no repellynge at all but the lawe of the realme standeth ther wyth well ynough he maketh as though al â—he iustyces of peaâ—e were accursed there by as ofte as they geue the iuryes in charge to enquyre of heresye therfore leste they sholde wylfully fal into the censures of the chyrhe wherof as he sayth the leste is a dauÌ„gerouse thyng ye may playnly se that these wyly shrewes whych abuse his labour meane in all thys mater nothynge ellys but that they wolde not haue heresyes enquyred of And yet they nede not so greatly to care therfore for any great thingê y t by such inquisycioÌ„s are in heresyes presented But yet thus declare they theyr good wylles these wyly shrewes y t thus deceyue this good symple soule set hym so euyll a worke ¶ If he fere so myche y e ceÌ„sures of â—hâ— chyrche as he maketh for and vndâ—rstande and byleue Summa Rosella so surely as he pretendyth yt hadde ben better for hym to examyne well hys boke of dyuysyon and thys his seconde boke also by the tytles of Summa Rosella and se well why ther hym selfe varye not fro SuÌ„ma Rosella be by y e senteÌ„ce of SuÌ„ma Rosella fallen in the censures of the chyrche hym selfe by some such maner of wrytynge as hys sayde bokes haue ¶ But now cometh this good pacifiâ—r forthe wyth a goodly pyece to
sayth What maysâ—er More meaneth to chaunge these wordes spyrytuall rulers into prelates I can not teâ—l But nowe by occasyon of the wordes that mayster More hathe spoken I wyll saye fartheâ— in the mater then I hadde thought to haue done ¶ Howe happy was I so y t I had not the grace to let his owne worde stande For now wyll he saye farther in the mater thenne euer he hadde thoughte to haue done And that ys sayth he this That I thynke veryly that if so great an ouersyght fell in to prelates and spyrytuall rulers that they wolde take vppon them to preache herely that they wolde that the people sholde byleue theym therin and to take yt to be catholycall that they preached For who wolde preache any thynge but suche as they wold haue theyr audyence byleue ¶ Byleue me good readers that thys man weneth he sayeth well fauoredly in this poiÌ„t wherin he taketh such pleasure that afterwarde fo lxxix he falleâ—h into the same agayn and sayth thus Maysâ—er More goâ—th about onely to proue that all my tale ys losâ—e bycause prelates pretende not to be byleued yf they preache heresye as he taketh yt that I sholâ—e saye they do And yet I sayde not so in dede And yf I dyd say so I sayde but trewly For yf they dyd preache heresye yt is certayne that they wolde loke to be byleued as I haue sayde byfore ye and yf they wolde preache and saye that yf they preched heresye that they wolde the people sholde not byleue theym yet yf they dyd after preache heresye in dede they wolde loke that the people sholde byleue theym For they wolde saye that they were no heresyes that they preached For who wyll confesse that he preacheth heresye ¶ Nowe good readers here haue I ioyned you to gether this good maÌ„nis gaye wordes in two places wherin I perceyue he pleaseth hym selfe ryght well But to th entent that you may se whether he haue so good cause as he weneth consyder well his wordes and myne byfore wheruppon he cometh to thys poynte For he maketh as though I wythoute occasyon geuyn of his wordes hadde writen that the prelates pretende not to be byleued yf they wolde preache heresye Wherin whether he saye trew or not you shall se by hys owne wordes whyche are these The lyghte of grace wyll not come as longe as the spirytuall rulers pretende that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyate of god that the people are bound to obay them to accepte all that they do and teache wythoute argumeÌ„tes resysâ—ence or grudgynge ¶ Nowe good readers fyrst consyder well here in these wordes of his what wysedome the man hath shewed in makynge suche a mumblynge of chaungyng spyrytuall rulers into prelates For when he saith here that the spyrytuall rulers pretende that theyr authoryte is so hyghe what doute is there but though he meane other rulers mo besyde whom he calleth no prelates yet he meaneth prelates to ye prelates specyally to And then when he sayth that the prelates the other spyritual rulâ—rs pretende this or that may I not wel say that he sayth y e prelates pretend this yes veryly that I may And yet in so chauÌ„gyng his worde I chaunge it to his aduantage not vnto myne in y t I make his odyouse sayenge myche lesse and nothynge more And thus fyrste you se good readers this mannys myche ouersyght in fyndynge of that faute ¶ Now consyder farther good readers y t he sayth in those wordes not that the spyrytual rulers y t is to saye both the prelates all the remanaunt to pretend theyr authorite to be hygh and so immedyatly deryued fro god that the peple are bouÌ„d to obey them in this thynge or that thynge one or twayne or tenne or twentye but vtterly to accept and obaye not onely all theyr teachyngê but also al theyr doynges to and neyther argue resyst nor grudge at any maner thyng that they wold eyther teache or do ¶ This generall thynge he saythe And therfore though I deale as you se so fauorably with him in my .xxvii chapyter of myn Apologye as to dyuyde y e mater aske whether he meÌ„t yt by theyr whole authoryte or part I myght well vpon these wordes of his haue taken it y t he had very shamfully belyed them had sayde y t they had preteÌ„ded to haue theyr whole authoryte iÌ„mediatly of god euery whit For if I wold so haue sayd his generall wordes wolde well haue warraunted myne Also syth his saynge is so generall and extendeth vtterly not onely to all theyr techyngê but also to al theyr doynges to sayth that they pretend y t by goddes immediate ordynaunce the people shold accepte all to gether both al y â— euer they say all y t euer they do by how many maner thynges myght I haue confuted his saynge and haue proued it false ¶ But yet his sainge beyng such I toke but one thyng y t was such as for y e mater y t we both specially spake of was next at hand And therfore I sayde that they pretende not to haue suche an authoryâ—e that men sholde obay thâ—ym in all thynges for they pteÌ„de not to haue authorite to bynde mâ—n to byleue and obay them yf they wolde preache heresyes But they pâ—â—ynly professe that if they so wold men shold not byleue theym nor obey them therin ¶ Here you se that where he sayth that he ment not that the prelates woâ—de preache heresye he speketh all besyde the purpose For I sayde not that he eyther so sayd or so ment But I sayde and yet saye that in those wordes he sayde that yf they wolde preche heresies they do now pretende that by the authorite whyche god hathe geuyn theym the people were thenne therin bounden to beleue and obey theym And in hys so sayenge I there sayde and yet saye that he sayth very farre vntrewe and that they pretende yt not but playnely preteÌ„de the coÌ„trary And thus in this poynt that he maketh a mater without grownd or cause and that hym selfe with his owne wordes gaue me good occasyon to wryte the thynge that I wrote this you se good readers proued very playne ¶ But now consyder his other wordes wherin he lyketh hym selfe so well and weneth y t he proueth y t the spyrytuall rulers of the realme pretende that yf they wolde preche heresye the people were by goddes ordynaunce bounden to byleue obey them therin bycause they wold than say y t it were none heresye In thys poynt hys reasonynge hath I promyse you a lytell more subtylte than substaunce and yet but symple subtylte neyther ¶ Fyrste as for his case that yf all the spyrytuall rulers wolde preche heresye yf he had ment of the spyrituall rulers of all chrystendome I wolde haue admitted his case none other wyse but as men put admitte a case impossyble to se what myghte ensew theron yf it
deryued of god as to be obayed therin but wyll be content that men grudge and argue and resyste them therin and pull them from the awter and suffre them to mynyster no sacrameÌ„tes noâ— any such other thyngê lyke than shal by thys good mannes newe declaracyon the light of grace appere by and by Hath not thys pacyfyer here good readers wyth myche laboure at last brought thys mater to a wyse conclusyon◠¶ If he wyll nowe go fro thys agayne and put in his other generall wordes agayne whyche for his aduauntage he lefte out in that place than is all gone agayne that he goeâ—h aboute and all myne answere made as I haue shewed you good and all his owne wordes nought ¶ In the lefe alsoâ— lxxxi these are hys wordes where I saye that as longe as the spyrytuall rulerâ— wyll pretende that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyately deryued of god that the people are bounde to obaye them wythout argument or resystence c. By these wordes I confesse that they haue authoryte immedyately deryued fro god But as I sayd before in the seuenth chapyter mayster Morâ— hath a ryght greate and a ryght inuentyue wytte wherby he can lyghtly tnrne a sentence after hyâ— appetyte And so he doth here c. ¶ What hygh wytte or inuentyue I haue to turne a sentence let y e reders iudge But surely the heygth of my wyt can not reche so hygh as to perceyue in those wordes of his the sentence that hym selfe turneth them to nor I trow no mannes els tyll these wordes They haue authoryte and these wordes They pretende to haue authoryte be bothe one thynge whyche they were neuer yet And therfore before his coÌ„fessioÌ„ that he now maketh here new I myght thaÌ„ well take that excepcioÌ„ which I haue brought there to a litle better effect than doth his here whiche wyth all hys wrestelynge and al hys new declaracyons bryngeth all togyther euer the lenger vnto the wurse conclusyon ¶ For nowe to colour this his ouersyght with all he telleth vs whiche maner of pretences he ment in those wordê which he wold here so fayne defende And than in stede of pretendynge to be by goddes ordynauÌ„ce byleued obayed in all thyngê as well wordes as dedes he bryngeth forth here a few amountyng in a some totall to the infynyte nomber of foure ¶ The fyrst is that the order and disposicyon of the thynges y t are to be disposed of y e chyrch be to be disposed by the prestes whyche poynt to put as for a mater that hath made dyuysyon bytwene theym and vs is a poynt of smal reason as farre as my reason can geue me For I remeÌ„ber not of any varyaunce that euer arose bytwene them vs for that poynt ¶ The secunde is that all chrysten prynces must subdue theyr execucioÌ„s to bysshoppes not to preferre them aboue them I can not tell you whyther there be any suche lawe made or not But I can tell you well that though there be this poynt wyll not serue his purpose y e value of a blew poynt For I am sure he neuer sawe in hys dayes any bysshoppe in thys realme vse that pretence agaynst the kynge or that euer there arose any diuisyon theruppon ¶ The thyrde is y t no charge shold be set vppon clerkes by laye power I neuer herde yet any dyuision ryse vppon thys poynt in my dayes nor he neyther in his I dare saye For I neuer saw the day yet nor he neither but that whan any nede of the kyng the realm requyred it they haue euer more ben redy to set taxes vpoÌ„ them selfe as lyberally and as largely as any man well myght wyth any good reason requyre ¶ The fourth is he sayth that yf a seculare iudge be neglygent in doyng of iustyce that thanne after monicion to amende it geuen to the iudge yf he wyl not than y e spyrytuall iudge may compel hym to it or ellys supply his â—ome and here the cause ¶ If I shold loke now for thâ—se .iiii. lawes it myght pâ—raduenture happeÌ„ that I sholde fynde that thys man had mysse taken some of theÌ„ as well as he hath mysse vnderstonden some of the other that he hath spokeÌ„ of before But syth that I neuer knewe grudge or diuisyon ryse here vppon any of them me nedeth neuer to loke more for the mater For sith this man neuer saw that any spyrituall iudge hath interprysed in defawt of iustyce to geue any such monicion or to supplye the rome were that law neuer so vnreasonable yet to say that vpoÌ„ that lawe the temporaltye hath here coÌ„ceyued such grudge as it hath ben a cause of diuisyon this pacifier of diuisyon may be mych ashamed y t euer he deuysed it For I dare say that as well this fourthe cause as many of all his other be suche as the people neuer neyther talked of nor thoughte vppon nor before his own boke had neuâ—r redde nor herde of And therfore by the puttynge in of such thynges euery chyld as I sayd in myne apologye may sone perceyue that his bokes labour enteÌ„de not to quenche but rather to kyndle diuisyon ¶ And therfore verely with his seyenge here euyn in the ende and conclusyon suche causes of his dyuisyon whych causes but by hym selfe the peple neuer herde of I maye well saye onys agayne good readers is not this gere by this good pacyfyer brought vnto a wyse conclusyon ¶ To those wordes wryten in myn apology the .169 lefe this good man answereth thus And now to thys conclusyon of mayster More I wyll say thus that I beseche almyghty god that the ende of all these maters may come to thys conclusyon that the very groundely causes of these dyuisyons that now be not onely in thys realme but also in maner through all chrysten realmes maye come to perfite knowledge For surely I do not take it that they began eyther by heresyes or apostasyes as mayster More in his apology meaneth that they â—â—lde do ¶ Here you may se good readers y t this good man wold be loth y t it shold appere that y e diuisioÌ„ parel harme haue any where sproÌ„geÌ„ vpoÌ„ heresies begon set forth by false apostatase wedded freres monkes as clerely as it is knowen y t by thoccasioÌ„ therof there haue ben slayn iÌ„ Almain within these very fewe yeres aboue .lxxx. M. persoÌ„s in one somer yet synnys among the Swychis whan zuyngliê° was slayne many thousandes killed to and the warre bygonne by the heretykes and the lashe by goddê great goodnes layed in theyr own neckys as falsely as Fryth bylyeth the catholykes and agaynst the playne and open knowen trouth wolde wyth shame inough to hym self make men wene y t the catholikes begaÌ„ y e warre ¶ But than goth he ferther saith And yf mayster More wyll nedyly endeuour hym selfe to hyde the truth therin aâ— it semeth he hath done in this chapiter and
dyuerse other places of his apologye by kepynge secrete suche abusyons and pretences as in my conscyence haue ben moste pryncypall causes of thys dyuysyon wherof parte be recyted in the sayd tâ—eatyce and part in thys answere but not all ¶ Of these there had nede in dede to be mo some more trew and some of a lytell more substauÌ„ce to than be the most parte of these y t this good man hath layed forth yet ¶ Now here he sayeth that I kepe secrete such abusyons and pretences as be the pryncypall causes of the dyuysyon wherof hym selfe hath he sayth shewed some eyther he meaneth that those which I kept secrete be those that hym selfe hath wryten or other besyde theym If he meane other then eyther hym self knoweth theym or not If he knowe them not how knoweth he that I know them or that there be any suche at all If hym selfe knowe theym and shewe them not then he hydeth theym and kepeth theym secret hym self as wel as I. Nowe yf he meane but those that hym selfe hath wryten how can I kepe those secrete that he hath writen Can I bothe gather vppe all hys bokes and go hyde theym and also make theÌ„ y t haue redde them go vnreade them agayne or forgete what they haue redde ¶ But now after this lyke wyse as he is wonte wheÌ„ reason fayleth hym to fal to preachyng so here bycause reason faileth hym he falleth to prayenge and therin thus he sayth I beseche almighty god that he haue no power to do yt but that the trouth maye come to fyghte therin thoâ—gh he resyste yt all that he can For yf yt were knowen and the fautes charytably reformed all these dyuysyons wolde shortely haue an ende ¶ Nay perdye this man seeth well ynought that though the fautê of the spyrytualtye were neuer so fully reformed yet could not all that suffyse to brynge all dyuysyons to an ende but yf one thyng be done whych wyl neuer be done wherof which he forgeteth I gaue hym warnynge in the .116 lefe of myne Apologye in these wordes But now if thys pacyfyer to cease and quenche thys dyuysyon coulde fynde the meanes to make all the whole clergye good yet for all that syth he layeth for causes of this dyuysyon that some men saye thys by the clergye and some men saye by them that were all the clergye neuer so good in dede and serued god neuer so wel this diuisyon by his own tale yet could not for all that cease except he coulde prouyde farther that no pytuouse pacyfyer sholde in lamentynge of dyuysyon putte forthe a boke and saye that some lay men say that some of the clergye be noughte and loue they re ease and theyr welth and that some saye that those that seme beste and take moste labour and payne be but hypocrytes for all that and serue god but for vayne glorye to gete theym selfe laude and prayse amonge the people ¶ Also yf defautes sholde be charyble reformed as this man sayth he wolde haue theym yt wolde be nede then to sette a lytle more charytable folke aboute yt then those haue ben that haue begyled thys good man wyth euyll counsayle in hys bookys and haue made hym vnder pretexte of pacyfyenge dyuysyon sette forthe and encrease dyuysyon wyth dyuysynge and spredynge abrode causes of murmure and grndge makynge in some of them an elephaÌ„t of a gnat and for olde grudges bryngynge forth some suche as the people neuer had herd of tyll they redde his bokê and some of the very worst whyche were most effectuall causes yf they were trewe bryngyng forth by hepes wyth a fygure of some say and very playn lyes in dede Is this the way good readers for a pacifyer to make peace wyth and put awaye dyuysyons ¶ And nowe hymselfe handelynge the mater thus he taketh of his charyte great thought leste I go about to hynder hys holy purpose And therfore sayth I doute me very sore that maister more goeth obout rather to marre all then to endeuoyr hym selfe to make all well ¶ Whyche be the lykelyheddes now good reders that lede this good man into this gret fere Bycause I make open the shrewde mynde of hys demure countenaunce and the harmful intent and purpose of his holy holesome wordes Bycause I wolde haue the temporaltye and the spyrytualtye as the bodye and the soule of one man loue well to gether and agree and neyther of theym be glad to here euyll of other nor to geue eare to false sedycyouse slaunder but the good folke of eyther parte drawe bothe by one lyne accordynge to both the law is to represse and kepe vnder the bad and among other vyces specyall suche pestylent heresyes as elles wolde oppresse the catholyque fayth prouoke the dyspleasure of god and fyrste sow deuysyon and afterwarde rere rebellyon in y e realme as they haue done byfore thys tyme both here and in other places and y t I to thys entent geue myne aduyce to kepe styll those good lawes that bothe thys realme and all the corps of chrystendome haue long vsed and approued Bycause I thus do so therfore this good man fereth that I go about to marre all ¶ But whyle his bokes go aboute on the tother syde to make the world wene that heresyes be no causes of dyuysyon and to haue heretyques lyue in the lesse fere wyth many malycyouse some sayes falsely slaundereth the ordynaryes of cruell wrong full handelyng of the peple to dryue them by drede or by shame or other tedyouse besynes to sette heretyques alone and go aboute wyth balde reasons the beste not worthe a ryshe to put away the good lawes y t haue ben made agaynst theym vnder colour of a feruour to the faith exhorte men to go wynne the holy land and in the meane whyle yet wyth suche wyly wayes labour wyth heretyques to fyll vp the â—tretes at home by the decay of the crysten catholyke fayth prouoke y e wrath of god vpon al our heddes whych our lord rather turne vpon theyrs that so wold haue it his bokes besyly goyng about this gere hym 〈◊〉 goeth about ye se well peâ—dye to make all thynge euyll ¶ But now wyll I fyrste fynyshe vp his .xx. chapiter wherin he goeth forwarde thus And in thye chapyter mayster More layth dyuerâ— other obieccyons to proue the sayde letter vnreasonable whych were very tedyouse to reherse at length And therfore I shall as shortely as I can touchâ— some of theym ¶ Ye knowe well ynough why they be tedyouse to reherse Surely bycause they be very tedyouse to answere But where he sayth he wil reherse some of theÌ„ he begynneth first to shew y t I had no cause to doute of his wordes wherin he sayth that the spyrytuall rulers pretende theyr authorytye to be so hygh so immediately deryued from god c. I hadde sayth he no cause to doute of what authoryte he ment For he sayth that his wordes were playn ynough y
surmyseth y t this is This was lo y e cause that made me to speke therof whych cause this maÌ„ gaue hym selfe and therfore nedeth not to meruayle as he doth wherfore I spake therof ¶ And therfore thus haue I good readers now replyed to euery chapyter of his boke by row saue onely y e last thre which go about a good viage into the holy lande a great way farre of fro me And I haue not leped to fro now forwarde now bakward in such maner as he playeth in his answere made vnto me without eyther order kepte or cause apperynge wherfore saue onely the cause that euery man may spye that he wold not haue it sene what places he lefte vntowched Which is in a maner the moste parte of all togyther that in my boke towched the thre chapyters of his And I haue on the tother syde not lefte any one pyece vnproued that my selfe spake of before or that any thynge perteyned vnto me ¶ And therfore where as in the begynnyng of the .xxii. chapyter Symkyn Salem geueth hys sentence vppon the sayde answere to the sayde apologye and alloweth the sayd answere well me thynketh that yf he consydered not onely how myche he hath lefte vnanswered how mych of his owne wordes vndefended whyche he nothynge hath towched at all but ouer that how febly he hath defended those thynges that he hath towched here Salem beynge indyfferent had ben like to haue allowed it but a lytell ¶ For settynge asyde for the whyle all the remanaunt yf he go but to the very pryncypal poynt alone wherin he laboreth to chauÌ„ge and put awaye those good lawes y e chauÌ„ge wherof suche as he deuyseth the decaye of the catholyke fayth and the encreace of heresyes wolde folowe in that poynt alone I say we laye agaynst hym the comen coÌ„sent of this realm And he layeth his own reasoÌ„ agaynst it We laye agaynste hym the consent of y e generall couÌ„sayle And agaynst this he layeth his owne reason We lay agaynst hym the generall approbacioÌ„ of all chrysteÌ„ realmes And agaynst this he layeth his own reason And what is hys owne irrefragable reason that he layth agaynst all this Surely no more as you se but that by those lawes an innoceÌ„t may sometyme take wrong Agaynste this reason we lay hym that yf this reason sholde stande than agaynst malefactours there could no law stande We laye agaynst it also that by his deuyces yf they were folowed by the encreace of heresyes many innocentes must nedes take mych more wronge ¶ To thys answereth he that he wyll not answere that And nowe when Salem seeth that he can not answere that seeth that al the weigth of the mater hangeth vpon that than Sym Salem geueth sentence that he hath answered very well But surely yf suche answeryng be well I wote not whyche way a man myght answere yll ¶ And therfore where as Symkyn Salem sayth that yf this good man wyll he wyll cause a frende of hys answere all the remanaunt he may do this good man a myche more freÌ„dly tourne yf he make hys frende answere this better fyrst that this good man hath answered allredy How be yt yf they lyste thus to geue ouer thys and assaye what they can saye better to any other pyece let theym a goddes name hardely go to for me And yf they saye any thynge metely to the mater I wyll put no frende to payne to make them answere but at leasure coÌ„uenient shal answere them my selfe And where they say well I wyll not let to saye so And where they say wronge I wyll not lette to tell theym But on the tother syde yf they go no better to worke nor no nerer to the mater then thys man hath done I shall peraduenture let them euen alone and lette them lyke theyr wrytynge theym selfe and no man ellys ¶ But now lettynge passe all specyall y t poyntes I shall answere y e generaltyes y t thys good man speketh of Form in the lefe .xc. these are hys wordes And now shall I saye somwhat farther in a generalytye as mayster More hathe done and that yâ— tâ—is that al that I speke in the sayde treatyse was to appeace this diuysyon and not to begynne any neâ—â— coÌ„tynue yt And therfore how they can saue theyr conscyence that saye I dyd rather intende a dyuysyon then agrement I can not tell theyr one conscyâ—nce shall be iudge And I entended also somwhat to mâ—â—e that myght be occasyon to put awaye abusyâ—â—â— euyll examplys and heresyes and not to â—â—crâ—ase theym or maynteyne theym I dare boldely saye ¶ To this I answâ—re that yt neyther was nor is my mynde that men shold thynke y t he ment eâ—yl him self as I haue in many placê of myn apology testified But verily I thought yet thinke y t by some wyly shrewis his boke was so mysse handeled that yt ment nought though he ment wel For where as he sayeth that wyth hys boke of dyuysyon all hys purpose was to appease dyuysyon I wyll not contende wyth hym vppon hys owne mynde But surely thys wyll I saye that yf I hadde ben of the mynde to sow and sette forthe dyuysyon I wold haue vsed euen the selfe same ways to kyndle yt that he vsed as he sayth to quenche yt ¶ Thenne goeth he farther and sayth And farther as mayster More knoweth better then I mentire est contra mentem ire that is to say to lye ys when a man sayeth agaynste hys owne mynde in good fayth in all that treatyse I speke nothynge but that I thought was trew ¶ To thys I answere that in dede suche a thynge I haue redde and as I remembre in Aulus Gellius Whyche thynge though I haue now no leasure to loke for yet two poyntes I remembre therof One that yt ys there mentiri and not mentire whyche infynytyue mode in what boke of grammer this good maÌ„ hath founde I can not tell I was aferd yt had ben ouersene in the prentynge But I haue loked the correccyons and there fynde I no faute founde therin ¶ The tother poynte I remembre that there ys a dyfference putte betwene mâ—ntiri mendacium dicere that is as we myghte saye betwene hym that wyttyngly lyeth and hym that telleth a lye wenyng that it were trewe And here yt is sayde wittyngly not to tell a lye perteyneth to a good man And not to tell a lye vnware is the parte of a wyse man And surely syth the scrypture sayeth that he that shortely byleueth is ouer lyghte thys good man to byleue so many lyes so soon and wyth so many some sayes to set theym forthe in prent to the rebuke and slaunder of the spyrytual iudges and make men wene they mysse handeled men for heresyes though the mannys innocent mynde made the synne the lesse yet was the thyng at the lest no lesse then a very great lyghtnesse ye and also a great profe towarde the reprofe of
his wordes that folow next where he goeth farther thus And farther I wyll acertayne mayster More aâ— farre as in me is that I neyther hadde any sotle shrewes counlayle ne any euyll counsayle at the makynge of the sayde treatyse whyche he calleth the boke of dyuysyon as ys sayde before ¶ To thys I answere that all be yt thys good man and I be at myche varyaunce here in dyuerse thynges yet for the good and playne professyon of the catholyque faythe that I fynde in hym in good fayth I mych better loue hym then in that poynt to beleue hym For yf he sayde therin trew then were all the fautes onely hys owne in whyche as I haue often sayde I myche rather thynke that some sotle shrewes haue deceyued hym ¶ And besyde sondry other thynges that lede me so to thynke one very stronge thynge ys thys that euery man maye well se by hys boke that all suche as haue resorted to hym to tell hym any suche thynges as vnder some sayes he put oute agayne haue alwaye tolde hym euyll and neuer told him good And of misse handlynge for heresyes haue euer tolde hym lyes and neuer tolde hym trew For where as the punyshement for heresyes hathe ben very lytle any where saue euen here at hande and here but ryght done to them and that wyth myche fauour to they haue made hym good sely soule byleue that ordynaryes mysse handle men for heresye in maner thorow oute the realme ¶ Also where as such slaunderouse clamour hath bene sondry tymes of late in al y t euer complayned playnly proued false before the kynges most honorable couÌ„sayle not one man cam to tell hym nothynge therof nor not one some say therof wryten in all his boke and ouer this where as myne owne self haue playnly told hym â—he same thyngê in myn apologye by writing yet which most meruayle were of all saue for such wyly shrewes euery man may well se that he neuâ—r redde yt For he sayth not one worde therto And therfore yt is eth to perceyue what so euer hym selfe saye whych is loth of his goodnes to put other folke in faute y t there be some wyly shrewes so myche about hym y t they neyther suffer hym any thyng to here but y t them self lyst to tel him nor yet any thinge to rede but where them selfe lyste to turne hym ¶ And nowe syth I haue here answered these generalytyes of hys I wyll not longe encumbre you with any generaltyes of myn own but generally I wold y t al were well And so helpe me my sauiour none other wise but as I wold wishe none heretike one halporth harme y t had clerely lefte hys heresye and were well tuâ—ned to god But on the tother syde who so sticke styl therin rather wold I wyshe hym sorowe to his synne wherby there are many folke many tymes amended then prosperousely to procede in hys myschyefe to the losse of his own soule and other mennys to And towarde that poynte agaynste all male factours in the spyrytualtye and the temporaltye to wold I wyshe all good folke of bothe partes to agre and eche loue other wel and stycke faste to the fayth whyche were like sore to decay by the chauÌ„ge of these good lawes that thys good man goeth aboute to destroye For whose vnreasonablenesse therin the better to be perceyued wyth the dauÌ„geour and parell that wolde ensewe theron I wyll desyre you good readers to resorte to myne Apologye and begynnynge at the lefe 270 rede vnto the lefe 287. wherin you shall I truste be well and fully satysfyed And vnto all that euer ys in all that spoken thys man hath nothynge sayd ¶ And where as in confutynge the fautes that thys man fyndeth in the suyte ex officio and the lawes made agaynste heretyques I haue vsed some examples of the comen lawe whyche this man hathe labored to proue vnlyke and I haue therin clerely confuted hym a freshe yt maye peraduenture happen that he wyll now take a nother waye therin and saye that in such poyntes those spyrytuall lawes maye be reformed and those temporall to ¶ How be yt yf he so saye but yf men forgette what hath ben sayd before ellys shall they se that his sayenge wyll not serue hym ¶ For fyrste as I haue sayed ofter then ones all redy the same thynges in the comen lawe be not to be chaunged For yf they be there shall come therof more harme thanne good And yf yt happen one innocent to take harme by the lawe there shall fyue for one take more harme by the chaunge ¶ More ouer yf we sholde for that cause chaunge those teÌ„porall lawes that ys to wytte bycause some innocent maye somtyme take harme by them we must chaunge by the same reason all that olde vsed lawe that a man maye be arrested and remayne in pryson tyll he fynde suertyes for the peace vppon the bare othe of hys enmye that sayth he is a ferde of hym For by that law may some tyme an innocent take harme to And yet muste that lawe stande yf we do well For ellys shall there by the chauÌ„ge mo innocentes take more harme ¶ What trouble haue there many men in Walys by that they be compelled to be bounden to the peace bothe for them selfe and for theyr seruauntes and other frendes to And yet is the order there so necessary that in many lordshyppes yt maye not be forborne ¶ And surely yf we fall to chaungynge lawes vpon y e symple grouÌ„d we muste then chaunge so many that it wolde not be well ¶ Bysydes thys yf men sholde reforme and chaunge a lawe bycause that an innocent maye somtyme take harme therby then must they when they haue chaunged it chaunge yt yet agayne after that chaunge yet chaunge yt agayne so forth chauÌ„ge after chaunge and neuer cease chaungynge tyll the worlde be all chaunged at the daye of dome For neuer can all the wyttes that are in yt make any one penall lawe suche that none innocent may take harme therby ¶ How be yt yf a newe lawe were drawen and putte forthe to be made agaynst any such myschiefe as wold els do mych harme good reason yt were to take an excepcyon to the byl and shewe that innocentâ—s myghte be myche harmed by thys poynt or that and therwyth prouyde the remedye and putte it in the lawe and stoppe as many such gappes as then coulde be spyed Ye and yf after the law made men foud notable harme that good folke were myche wronged by it and the lawe suche that it eyther myghte be forborne or els the meanes founde to be chaunged to the better good reason wold it to make prouysyon for it ¶ But surely to come forth as thys man cometh here agaynste so good lawes so well made and by so great authoryte so longe approued thorow the whole corps of chrystendome in thys realme ratyfyed specyally by parlyament and that vppon a profe not wythout
The debellacyon of Salem and Bizance THe Debellaâ—yon of Salem and Bizans somtime two great townê which being vnder y e great turke were byâ—wene Easâ—er and Michelmaâ— last passed thys present yere of our lord M.v. C. thyrty 〈◊〉 with a meruelouse metamorphosyâ— enchaunted and turned into two englyshe men by the wonderful inuentyue wytte and wychecrafte oâ— Syr IohnÌ„ Some saye the Pacifiar and so by hym coÌ„uayed hyther in a Dialoge to defende his dyuysyoÌ„ agaynst y e Apology of Syr Thomas More knyght But now beyng thus bytwene the sayde Mychelmas Halowentyde nexte ensuâ—â—â—e in thys Debellacion vaâ—â—â—â—shed they be flâ—dde â—ense and vanyshed are bycome two townys agayne wyth those old names chauÌ„gedâ— Salem into Hierusalem and Bizancâ— into Constantinople the tone in Grece y â— tother in Syria where they may se them that wyll wynne them that can And if the Pacifier conuaye them hyther agayne tenne suche other townys with them embatayled in suche dyaloges â—yr Thomas More hath vndertaken to put hym selfe in thaduenture alone agaynst them all But and yâ— he lette them tary styll there â—he wyll not vtterly forswere it but he is not mych mynded as yet age now so coÌ„mynge on warynge all vnwyeldy to go thider geue thassaulte to such well walled townys wythout some suche lusty company as shal be somewhat lykly to lepe vp a lytell more lyghtly ¶ The preface Syr Thomas More to the chrysten readers IF any man meruayle as I wene some wyse menne wyll that euer I wold vouchsaufe to bestow any time about makynge answere to the pacyfyers dyaloge consyderynge his faynt his feble reasonyng I can not in good fayth wel excuse my selfe therin For as I sodaynly went in hande therwyth and made it in a breyde so whaÌ„ I synnys considered how lytell nede it was I merueyled myne owne selfe and repented to that I hadde not regarded the boke as it was wurthy and without any one worde let it euyn alone ¶ How be it good reders what one thynge or twayne specyally moued me to make answere to it and how it happed me to fall in hand therwyth and to spende and lese a lytell tyme about it to make the mater the more playne vnto you that thynge shall I shew you ¶ As soone as myne apologye was ones come out abrode anone herde I worde that some were very wrothe therwyth And yet in my mynde had there no man cause neyther precher nor pacyfyer no nor none heretyke neyther For I hadde but spoken for my selfe and for good folke and for the catholyke fayth without reproch or reprofe to any mannes person or wyllyng any man any harme y t were wyllyng to mende And who so were wyllyng to be nought styll had cause to be wroth wyth hym self you wote well and not with me ¶ But all this wolde not serue me for very wroth were they wyth me Howbeit theyr causelesse anger dyd not gretely greue me For I was not so farre vnreasonable as to loke for reasonable myndes in vnreasonable menne ¶ But than herde I shortely that thykke threfolde the pennys went to wurke and answeres were a makyng diuerse by dyuerse very great cuÌ„nyng meÌ„ And of this trayuayle of such great mouÌ„tayne hyllys I herd myche speche made almoste euery weke so ferforth that at laste it was tolde me for trouth that vnto one lytell pyece one greate cunnynge man had made a long answere of twelue whole shetys of paper wryten nere to gyther and with a smale hande ¶ But in good fayth I coulde but laugh at that For as for that pyece I was very sure that the cuÌ„nyngest man that coulde come therto neyther in tenne shetys nor in tenne querys neyther wryte as nere as he coulde sholde neuer answere it well ¶ For that pyece was the answere y t in myne apalogye I make as you se there vnto certayne sermons wherin my dyaloge was towched for wrytynge agaynst Tyndals false translacyon And wherin was also defended agaynst my confutacyon Tyndals wyse chapyter in which agaynst my dyaloge he laboreth to proue that the worde was before the chyrche in all his chapyter neuer towcheth y e poynt and the sermon that defended hym walketh as wyde as he ¶ It was tolde me as I say that answere was made to that place and what shyfte there was founde to the remanaunt that coulde I not here But to the fyrst poynt I herde saye that there was deuysed ' that where as I reherse that the precher spake of poysoned brede I rehersed hym wrong For he spake but of moulden brede And this pyece it was tolde me that in y t new answere it was reasoned at length set forth very lusteâ—y ¶ But come the boke abrode onys I shall sone abate that corage For fyrst syth he taketh recorde y t he sayd but mouldy brede yf I brynge wytnesse also that he said poysoned bred than can his wytnesse stande hym in none other stede but for to proue for hym that he sayd bothe ¶ Secundly shall I proue that he sayd poysened brede by such meanes that men shall se by reason y t though the tother were possyble yet was it farre vnlykely ¶ Finally shal I ferther proue that though y e man had sayd not poysened brede but onely moulden brede yet shall I proue I saye that as the case stode that same not poysened brede but moulden brede was yet for all that a very poysened worde ¶ Heryng therfore that this gaye boke was made of the .xii. shetys of paper lacked but ouerloking that many mo were iÌ„ hand y e shortly shold come out lyke as an husband whose wife were in her trauayle herkeneth euery hande whyle and fayne wold here good tydynges so syth I so myche herde of so sore trauayle of so many so cunnynge aboute dyuerse answeres I longed of theyr longe laboure to se some good spede and some of those fayre babes borne that they trauayled on ¶ And when these great hyllys had thus trauailed longe from the weke after Ester tyll as myche afore Mycheâ—mas the good houre came on as god wold y e one was broughte a bed with sore labour at laste deliuered of a dede mouse The moder is yet but grene good soule hath nede of good kepyng women wote what caudell serueth agaynst her after throwes ¶ Now after that the boke was out and came into myne handes and that I sawe the maner and the fashyon therof two thynges onely moued me to wryte and medle wyth yt One that I sawe therin folowed and pursewed the selfe same shrewed malicyouse intent that was purposed in his fyrst boke of diuysyon that is to wyt to make thordynaryes with fere of slaunder and oloquye seue theyr dutyes vndone and lette heretyques alone and ouer that wyth an euyl newe chaunge of good old lawes labour to putte heretyques in corage and therby decaye the fayth ¶ This was in dede the very specyall poynte
that made me wryte yet agayne And yet founde I so lytle reason in hys reasonynge that me thought yt sholde not nede For thys wyste I very well that who so euer had wyt and wold conferre and compare to gether the wordes of hys answere wyth the wordes of myne Apologye sholde sone perceyue that hys answeres were euyn very dull and dede ¶ But thenne was there a nother thynge that I consydered in yt whyche poynte vnprouyded for myghte soon deceyue the reader For all be yt the pacyfyer hath in some places put in myne owne wordes where yt pleased hym yet hathe he for the moste parte vsed a prety crafte to mysse reherse my mater and leue my wordes oute Ye and besydes this the man hath in some places lefte oute some of his owne mysse rehersed them to make the reader wene that in the reprouynge theym I hadde wryten wronge ¶ Now had I supposed to remedy those thingê make him an answere in thre or foure leues wyth onely poyntynge the reader to the places wyth wrytynge in what lefe he shold fynde the mater For the wordê ones redde the trouthe sholde shewe yt selfe ¶ But whyle I was thus mynded and went there about hys answere in his dialoge had fouÌ„den such a way wyth walkynge to fro kepynge no maner order and therwyth makynge me seke so longe for some one place y t I saw wel I shold soner answere hym all new then fynde out for many thynges the place that I sholde seke for ¶ I made therfore in few daysâ— this answere that you se. And some suche places yet as I had happed to finde I haue remytted the reader vnto in myne apologye where for his redye findyng I haue noÌ„bred himâ—the lefe And yet haue I for some folke done somwhat more to For I se wel surely many men are nowe a dayes so delycate in readynge and so lothe to labour that they fare in other bokes as womeÌ„ fare with theyr primer which though they be content to saye some tyme y e fyftene psalmys ouer y t the psalmys of the passyon to yf they fynde them al fayre lette out in order at length yet wyll they rather leue theym all vn sayde then turne backe to seke theym out in other partyes of theyr prymer ¶ And therfore leste some readers myghte happe in this boke to do the same some places of thapologye myche necessarye and not longe that wyth myche sekynge I fortuned to fynd out to ease the reders labour make all open vnto hym I haue put in also into myne answere here Ye and yet ouer thys in the thynges of moste weyghte I haue put into thys boke hys owne wordes to And so shall you good readers wythout any payne of sekynge haue all the mateâ— playn and open afore your yien that ye shal well se that I loue the lyght no lesse thenne thys pacyfyer wolde fayne walke in the darke For as the darke is in this mater all hys auauntage euen so ys veryly the lyghte in lyke wyse myne And where as there are some that coÌ„mende his answere for the compendyouse breuite therof and shortnesse I nothinge therin enuye the mannes prayse For lyke as no man can make a shorter course then he that lacketh both hys legges so caÌ„ no man make a shorter boke than he that lacketh as wel wordes as mater And yet when by the places conferred well to gether the feblenesse of his answere shall appere then shall he lese the prayse of shortnesse to For when yt shall wel be sene y t he sayth nothyng to the purpose then shall euâ—ry wise man thynke hys boke to longe by all to gether And that ye may wel perceyue that so it is in dede let vs now leue of the preface and fall vnto the mater The fyrste chapyter IN his fyrste chapyter he toucheth thre thinges One that I haue deceyued hys hope in that I haue not in myne apologye dyuysed some conuenyent wayes to reforme and redresse the dyuysyon betwene the temporaltye and the spyrytualty to whyche poynte I wyll answere after in the touchyng of hys seconde chapyter The tother poynt is that syth he neuer found any faute in any worke of myne of whyche for other â—ettis he neuer redde none he merueleth mych therfore that I make such obieccyon agaynste his and namely in that worke whych I wolde name an apologye whyche name sygnyfyeth as he sayth an answere or a defence ¶ Now where this good man declareth what thynge an Apologye ys and sayth that yt is an answere or a defence for whych cause he the more meruaileth that I wold in that boke wryte agaynste any treatyse of hys who neuer hadde any thynge wryten against any worke of myn as though that therfore my wrytynge agaynste his worke wold in no wise agre with the name of my boke I myghte answere hym that the touchynge of his boke was but an incident as I shew in the .100 lefe of my sayde boke and not my pryncypall mater and therfore of many noughty thynges I touche there but a fewe and suche as were in no wyse to be dissembled But now meruaile I myche more wherfore he shold so meruayle that I wold in y e worke which I name an answere or a defence wryte agaynst his worke which nothynge wrote agaynst myn For if the thynge that I wryte agaynst his wordes be an answere or a defence in dede thenne though it be not a defeÌ„ce for my self yet is the cause of all his meruayle gone For in that boke that is called myne apologye yt is not requyred by y e nature of y e name that yt be any answere or defence for myne owne selfe at all but if suffyceth that yt be of myne owne makynge an answere or defence for some other And as these titles Caluicium Sinccii Moria Erasmi be names conuenyent for those bokes of theyres though the maters in those bokes sygnifyed by those names do not onely pertein vnto Sinecius Erasmus or peraduenture to neyther of theym both at al so may my boke well bere the name of an answere or a defence yf it be an answere or a defence made by me though yt were all made for other folke and not one pyece therof made for me ¶ So is yt now that myne apology is an answere and a defence not onely for my formare bokes wherin the new brethern began to fynde certayn faâ—tes but ouer that in the self same parte wherin I touche the boke of dyuysyon it is an answere and a defence for many good worshyppefull folke agaynst the malycyouse slaunder and obloquye so generally sette forth with so many salse some sayes in that sedycyouse boke ¶ The selfe same pyece ys also an answere and a defence of the very good olde and longe approued lawes bothe of thys realme and of the whole corps of chrystendome which lawes thys pacyfyer in his boke of dyuysyon to thencoragynge of heretyques and parell
theÌ„ self toke y â— name euangelicall arrogantly to them self both by theuangelycall lyberty that they pretended as folke that wolde lyue vnder the gospell and vnder no mannes lawe besyde bycause they wolde also byleue nothynge ferther than y e very scrypture all which they take now vnder the name of the gospell For y e new lawe they take for nothyng ellys but for the declaracyon and perfeccyon of the olde ¶ Now whan they had taken thys name comeÌ„ly vpon them self the catholikes tellyng them y t they neyther lyued nor byleued accordynge to the gospell letted not yet to call them by the same name to that not to theyr prayse but to theyr rebuke shame And some turned in wrytyng y t name of theyrs in scorne in stede of euaÌ„gelicos wrote theÌ„ pseudo euaÌ„gelicos ¶ Now yf this man can not bere it that I call them as the old folke do though I wolde my selfe leue it for his pleasure y t wolde make ye wote well but a small chaunge For other folke wyll call theÌ„ styll yet by what name they lyst and neyther I nor he can lette them ¶ But to th entent he may be somewhat the lesse discontent with me for callynge heretykes by a good name he shal vnderstande that vpon suche occasyon such maner it is no newe begon thyng so to do For a certayne sorte there were of the heretikes that were y e Manicheis which were fyrst amonge them selfe called by y e name of Cathari that is to wyt pure and clene afterward the catholikes called theÌ„ by y e same name And so doth saynt Austayne also call theym in his wrytynge But yet he declareth bothe theyr false heresyes theyr secrete shamefull lyuyng for such that though he call them by the name of pure and clene as we call now these bretherne euangelycall yet he ment that they were neither pure nor clene in dede no more than these folke in lyuynge or bylyefe folow the very gospell in dede ¶ But than cometh he forth vppon me somwhat solempnly with a very foly and with a solempne lye For lo good readers these are his wordes I warraunt you wyse and trewe And now wyll I saye somwhat ferther concernyng thys mater and that is thys I meruayle mych how mayster More durste for offence of hys conscyence and for drede of the kynges dyspleasure and of the whole realme brynge vp such a slaunderouse name in this realme and put it in prynt that may lyghtly touche not onely many of the comon people but also of the greatest of the realme as well spyrytuall as temporall yf he and other of hys affynyte lyâ—te to call any of them one of the blessed bretherne or of the good brethern And in this poynt it semeth that he forgate the honour of the realme whyche he semed moch to regarde whan he sayd he coulde not thynke it to the honour of the realme that other realmes shuld wene that the whole clergye of this realme shulde be so farre fallen into the grudge and indygnacyon of the whole temporaltye as he sayth it is spoken to be in the sayd treatyse whyce he calleth the boke of diuisyon for certaynly it is more dyshonour to the realme to haue it noysed that the realme is full of heretykes than that the temporaltye grudgeth agaynste the spyrytualty and so he esheweth and fleeth the lesse sclaÌ„der though it were all true that he sayeth and renneth heedlynge into the greater ¶ And now wyll I saye somewhat ferther concernynge thys mater and that is thys I meruayle mych how this man durst for offence of his conscyence dyspleasure of god brynge vp suche a slaunderouse lye vppon me and wryte it in hys boke that I sholde wryte in myne apologye that the realme is full of heretykes ¶ If the case were nowe no better vppon my parte nor no wurse vpon his but that in myne apologye there coulde no suche sayenge be founden what rebuke were it yet vnto hym yf he were a man openly knowen by name as now the shame cleueth not on hys chekes but he soone shaketh it of whyle hys name is not at hys booke But nowe syth that in myne apologye I playnely wryte the contrary what wordes wyl there serue to saye to thys man the thynges that he were in this poynt wery wel worthy to here ¶ Râ—de good chrysten readers the xlvii chapyter of myne apology begynnynge in the .260 lefe and there shall you playnely se that I saye playne the contrary For where as thys pacyfyer dyd in hys boke of dyuisyon vnder the name of some other bylye of lykelyhed some of the spyrytualty than surmyttynge that they as of polycy noysed that the realme is full of heretykes more than it is in dede as he now bylyeth me here surmysynge that I do say the same ye shall there se that I shewe it to be vnlykely y t any polytyke spyrytuall man wolde so saye for polycy syth so to say were for them for the cause that I there shew very far agaynst good polycy And there I ferther shew y t some heretykes haue â—alsely made that noyse and there I tell for what cause And afterward iÌ„ foâ— 268. I shew y t for all theyr besy bragyng they be yet in dede but a few ¶ Now good reades whan I thus haue wryten there in both the places so open and so playne that the realm is not full of heretykes nor hath ther in but a few though y â— few be in dede ouer many growen mo also by neglygence in some parte than there hath bene in some late yeres passed how may this man fynde in his harte for shame to wryte in this wyse and as it were with such authoryte so solempnely chekke me falsely for writyng y t the realm is full thaÌ„ excuse his lyke fawte by myne yet in the coÌ„parison make myne the greater to But now is all the craft of y e comparyson dyscouered the glory of that argumeÌ„t defaced whyle you se y t his fawt is trew that myne he feyneth fyndeth not in myn boke but playn and expressely the contrary and that he spynneth that fyne lye without flex fetchyng it out of his own body as the spider spynneth her cobwebbe And thus is my fawte fayre wyped awaye hys lyeth styll in his necke and another now layed vnto it ¶ Now as thys was no lytell foly for hym to lese his credence with that openlye that myght be so soone and so playnely controlled and reproued so is his fyrst poynt also no lesse foly than that wherin he merueyleth so mych that I dare for my conscyence and for dyspleasure of my prynce of the whole realme brynge vp that slaunderouse name in the realme to call these heretykes the bretherne consyderynge that it maye lyghtely touche not onely any man of y e comen people but also of the greatest of the realme as well spyrytuall as temporall yf eyther
not I saye aboue seuen that thought any one of all these thre is not this trew yf I found seuen y t thought all thre yes forsoth trewe ynough though I neuer found any one y t euer thought any two of the thre And nowe therfore though I neuer founde any noble man so vnryghtuouse or so vnreasonable as to thynke yt ryght or reasonable wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye any possessyons from the clergye yet haue I founde seueÌ„ that haue thought yf ryghte and reason wolde bere yt they coulde tell howe that as for worldely polycye some of the possesseons taken awaye myght be to the realme profytable And some one hathe thought that yt wolde be peraduenture profytable to the realme that the lordes hadde the landes whose auncestours had mortysed theym And peraduenture he that so thought shold not haue lost a grote by yt And some other hathe thought that it wold be more profytable to put yt into hospytalles of some certayn new fashyoned foundacyon and therof neyther make prestes the maysters nor no laye men neyther but some good sad honest vertuouse wydos that wolde be tendable tendre to syke folke and that shold yerely yelde a compte vnto thordynarye And some other haue thought yt better to dyuyde cant yt amonge good pore husband men that shold tyl the ground theyr own handes take the lande for theyr labour with dyuers other dyuyses mo euery man after hys own mynde And what harme was there nowe in any of all they re myndes y t thys good wise man wold haue my wordes seme so heygnouse vppon a sentence that hym selfe includeth in theym and whyche sentence of hys reason excludeth from theym and in whyche as you playnly se proued thys man woteth nere what he meaneth And to th entent y t he shold wel knowe that the mater is nothynge ferefull therfore wrote I that thre were dede bycause he sholde well wyt that there were yet the more parte a lyue And therfore yf the good man thynke any great heygnouse offence in the mater lette hym come to me hym selfe and I shall brynge hym to some of theym that shall not make yt straunge to say agayne the same to hym selfe and than he may vse it at his pleasure as his hygh wysedome shal thynke conuenyent Than sayth he farther in the secoÌ„de syde of the .xviii. lefe y t he can not tel what cause I wold thynke a cause resonable to take any possessions from y e chyrche But yet syth yt is implyed in my wordes that some cause lawefull and resonable there may be he thynketh he sayth y â— peraduenture yf I were asked the question therin by theÌ„ y t haue authoryte to do it I wolde shewe what I ment therby There shal in good faith nede no gret soleÌ„ne examynacyon of me by men of authoryte for that mater For I wyll not stycke to tel yt vnto hym selfe but haue tolde yt al redy to hym and euery man ellys that lyste to reade yt a good whyle a go in my booke of the Supplycacyon of soules and there maye thys good man go seke yt yf yt please hym and then vse yt as yt lyke hym ¶ But fynally after his harte some what eased he cometh to hym selfe agayne and endeth the chapyter very well wyshynge the clergye the grace that the apostles had and declarynge that he neuer desyred them thapostles pouertye and exhortyng theym that haue aboundaunce of possessyons to be well ware so to vse yt as yt be not a let of the deuocyon that they sholde haue to god and the charyte that they sholde shewe to they re neyghbour In these thre thynges he sayth as me thinketh very specially well And I praye you hartely good readers euery man theâ— rather at my pore request what so euer he wrote before thynke now that he ment then but thus The .vii. chapeter HIs seuenth chapiter begynneth in the .xix. lefe and therin vppon a sex leues he argeweth agaynste a lytle doute that I moued vpon the begynnynge of his fyrste chapyter of hys dyuysyon whych wordes of his and myne theruppon begynne in myne apologye fo 101. And the same poynt is touched agayne there fo 106. When you haue there redde what I â—â—y then may you rede here hys answere wherin he declareth y e mater and argueth it by cases of law mych after the maner of a motable case ful wel fauoredly in good fayth and wyth longe labour proueth at laste that yt must be taken in such wyse as he seeth y t among other construccioÌ„s I coÌ„strued his minde my self though I was loth to do so bycause y t waye was the worste for hym selfe But nowe he remedyeth that wyth a lyne or twayneâ— wherin he declareth y t he ment not to preferre euery seculare preste byfore those that are in relygyon wherin I wold haue trusted him as well vppon his worde as vppon the reason that he layeth for it now whyche saue for the truste that I haue to his word I wold wene he neuer thoughte on whan he wrote the dyuysyon but rather ended y e clause in suche wyse as yt happed wythout any respect peradueÌ„ture to theÌ„crease and growynge of the sentence in the ende ¶ I was ones halfe in mynde here to haue kepte scoles wyth hym yet in this poynte ones agayne euyn all of pleasure and to haue broughte yt yet agayne in questyone whether the cyrcuÌ„staunces of his wordê were able to proue that he ment otherwise than he now argueth y t it muste nedê be taken And then yf the cyrcumstances so dyd whether commen vsage and acceptaunce of a worde sholde agaynste the cyrcumstaunces of the mater haue lyke strength in all other thynges as yt hath in maters of law and whether the reason vsed in the courtes in maters of law be of lyke strength in euery other thynge as they be when they be made in mateâ—s of lawe and of lyke vygour and force in euery place abrode as they be in the courtes in whyche they haue ben longe receued and accepted for sure and stable groundes ¶ And whyther in this poynte betwene hym and me beynge no mater of the law nor perteynyng to the iudgement of any court but to be consydered by the whole people in euery mannes reason at large the cases of the lawe of thys realme that he bryngeth in whyche be iudged and sure and shold serue the tone parte in the lawe though the mater were the weyghte of a thousande pounde sholde hycause we be englyshe men and our mater wryten in Englande and in Englyshe wordes stande for a sure and an insoluble argument though the lawes both ciuyle and canon that are called the comen lawes of all chrystendome besyde vs were as peraduenture they be in the selfe same cases full and whole to the contrarye And yet wolde I besyde thys a lytle haue assayed so to shake his cases of London and Mychelmasse y t per aduenture to many
hym selfe sayth he dyd his wordes semed playnely to shewe that he rekened the state of chauntry prestê to be a state of more perfeccyon than the state of relygyouse folke And therfore thobieccyon coÌ„tayned mater of great effecte and whych he mych neded to answere and to declare that he ment not so but that he ment as he now declareth that dyuysyon is bytwene seculare prestes more lamentable than bytwene relygyouse bycause the seculare prestes be more abrode and therby theyr varyaunce more knowen Whyche exposycyon few men I wene wold haue thought vpon before But now that he sayth he ment so I am very well content therwyth and wolde that all folke sholde take it so to yet is it ye wote well but very wynter ware and a scuâ—e as colde as a â—ay The .viii. chapyter HIs .viii. chapiter begynneth in the secuÌ„de side of his xxv lefe and preteÌ„deth to answere my wordes wryten agaynste his in the .xix. chapiter of myne apology whyche begynneth folio 116. And now he sayth that I say there that I wote not wel what he meneth in that he sayth that the spyrytualtye call the worldely honour of the chyrche and of spyritual persons the honour of god And therfore he sayeth here that he wyll so doeth declare therin what he there ment therby ¶ But here is now y e crafte where as I did there shew what I thought he ment therby and therfore made answere to those thyngê y t I thought he there ment now the mater beyng chaunged here by hys new declaracyon he bryngeth in myne answers made there and confuteth them for insuffycyent now whan hys new declaracyon hath made a chaunge in the mater as though I had than menâ—â—o answere this that I was not than ware that he wolde now saye nor I wene hym selfe neyther ¶ But rede fyrste good readers the xix chapyter of myne apologye begynnyng fo 116. and there shall you se those wordes of his suffycyently answered for the thynge that me thought he ment And than after that done consyder hys answere here in whyche for all hys holy pyece of a sermon what doth he tell me He telleth me that honour is onely dew to vertue that no man may couet honour without offence excepte it be to the honour of god and that inordynaâ— appetyte of honour is dedely synne and that yf a spyrytuall man wolde accepte honour by reason of any spirytuall dygnyte and that god were therby dyshonoured thanne that honour were not to be called honour but dyshonour and that yet some laye menne saye that spyrytuall men call it an honour to god All thys whole tale for all thys holy sermon is yet to the mater in mayntenaunce of hys formar wordê whiche he wold here seme to defeÌ„de vtterly tolde in vayne For fyrste in all this tale he telleth vs not well what he calleth worldly honour whyche he sayth the spirytualty calleth the honour of god which was the thynge that I sayed I wyste nere what honour he ment For where he wolde seme to declare it there is hys declaracyon both very bare yet agaynst hym to For in the secunde syde of the xxvi lefe he drybbeth in a worde of spyrytuall dygnite thus he sayth Then I mene ferther that yf any spyrytuall man wolde accepte a worldly honour by reason of any spyrytuall dygnyte god were therby dyshonored as it may be by many circumstances as yf for suche worldly honour charyte be in any maner broken or denyed iustyce delayed any of the .vii. sacramentes not â—nely mynystred or the people not dylygentely and playnely instructed that then it is not to be called honour to god but rather dishonour and that yet some saye men say they call it an honour to god And surely the truth is that many saye men saye that for the mayntenaunce of such worldly honour spyrytuall men bothe relygyouse and seculer be neglygeÌ„t somtyme in such thinges as be before rehersed and that yet they call suche worldly honour the honour of god ¶ Here he hath told vs that yf any spyrytuall man wold accept a worldly honour by reason of any spyritual dygnite wherby god were dyshonored that honour were not honour But yet he telleth vs not what maner of worldly honour it is that he meneth to be accepted by reason of a spirytuall dignyte nor yet what maner thynge suche worldly honour is nor touchyng that spyrytual dignite he telleth not whyther he mene a desyre in any man to attayne any spyrytual dignite for some kinde of worldly honour y t he thynketh shold folow theron or els some worldly honour by reason of any spyrytuall dygnyte that the man hath all redy ¶ I let passe his cold and vnsauery tolde tale of cheryte denyed and iustyce delayed and some of the seuen sacramentes not duly mynystred for mayntenaunce of such worldely honour as some spyrituall men bothe seculares and relygyouse by reason of spyrytuall dygnytees accepte as some laye men saye A pore tale and a colde by my faye to be tolde for a cause of an heyghnouse vniuersall dyuysyon For thys were an endeles dyuysyon yf euery suche â—awte of some sholde vppon euery some saye be layed for a cause of dyuysyon agaynst the generall body ¶ And yet bysyde all thys I saye that hys fyrste wordes are nothynge mayntened wyth all thys mater For hys fyrste wordes spake of a consent and agrement wherin seculare prestes and relygyous for all the varyauÌ„ce bytwene them selfe for other thynges yet agre togyther about the mayntenaunce of that worldely honour that they call the honour of god And here he speketh but of another mater that is to wyt y t for the mayntenaunce of wordely honourâ— spyrytuall men both relygyouse and secular be neglygent somtyme in some maner breke or denye cheryte delaye iustyce do not dewly ministre some of the seuen sacramentes nor dylygently plainely instructe the peple ¶ All this tale as you se to wcheâ—h y e pryuate fawtes of some such as for the mayntenauÌ„ce of that worldly honour which they call goddes honour thus mysse vse them selfe But thys tale is nothynge sybbe to hys other tale that he tolde and I towched before For that spake of such agremeÌ„t all in one that is to wyt an holdynge togyther whych sygnyfyeth a maynteynynge eche of other agaynst other men in mayntenauÌ„ce of that worldly honour that they call the honour of god in lyke wyse as for maters of theyr owne they be one agaynste an other amonge them selfe ¶ And thus you se playnely good reders y t this maner of mayntenyng of his formar wordê is a clene going from them and a seuyng of them vnmayntened and bycause he cometh vppon me byfore in another place with casys of law were in the lawe a very playne departure and sholde in any of the kynges courtes yf I demurred vppon it vtterly marre all his mater ¶ And so it appereth that some other some
poynt wherin al the mater standeth this man in this .ix. chapiter of his speketh not one worde And therfore in this thing staÌ„deth myn answere made in y e sayd .xx. chapiter of myne apolpgye clene and clere vntouâ—hed as euery maÌ„ may perceyue that readeth yt And therfore where in y e secoÌ„de syde of his .xxxii. lefe this man saith thus And to th entent I wold haue this mater the better loked vpâ—on I wolde here aduertyse syr Thomas More not by waye of argument but for clerenesse of conscyence to consydre whyther ye the more charytable waye fyrste to make restytucyon and paye dettes and releue extreme pouerte and then to do the tother yf he haue to do bothe or elles to do the fyrste and let the tother passe For this his good aduertysement I veâ—y hartely thanke hym answere hym as hym selfe wolde wysshe I sholde that surely me thynketh as he doth that the more charytable waye of the twayne were that y t hym self here moueth ¶ But than lo by and by he geueth me another good lesson wherwith he wolde I sholde amende myne owne fawte that he wolde it shold seme I had in myne apologye made agaynst hym For than lo thus goeth he ferther forth And yf he thynke that this waye that I moue be the more cherytable waye that than he helpe it forwarde rather than the other and than not to blame any man that maketh that mocyon as though he were agaynst treÌ„tallys obitis such other For he is not agaynst them dyrectely but onely entendeth to haue them chauÌ„ged into a more cherytable ordeâ— For though prayours be ryght expedyent and helthfull to the soule yet they serue not in all caâ—es as to dyscharge dettes or restytucyons where there ys inough to paye them wyth no more than there can be founden any one salue that can hele all maner of soores ¶ I neyther haue done that I wote of nor wyllyngly inteÌ„de to do blame hym for any part of this cherytable mocyoÌ„ but thynke his mocyon ryght good and that the fruyte therof yf it be folowed wytâ—e more yet than him selfe sayth he myndeth For he sayth as you se that he myndeth but to chaunge obitys and trentallys and those other thynges into a more cherytable order that is to wytte in to payeng of dettes and recompensyng of wronges in them that haue not of theyr owne bysyde and in them that haue than to paye the dettes and recompence wronges fyrste and do the tother after But me thynketh there wyll come yet a ferther profyte of this order to For where as here we speke but of hym that payeth his det and recoÌ„penseth his wrongê of whiche folke many a man is able well to do y e tother whan bothe those twayn be done there is to the tother sort of menne also bysyde to whome those wronges are done and those dettes owynge of whyche sorte there be many that yf theyr wronges were ones recompensed them theyr dettê payed them were able and wolde do those other thynges also them selfe which now for lacke be not able so sholde there of lykelyhed be the selfe thynges y t brynge as his fyrste boke sayth rychesse into the chyrch by this good order encreaced And therfore not onely haue I no cause to blame thys good man for the mocyoÌ„ of this good cherytable order but also no more haue the multytude of the prestes whiche myghte of lykelyhed wynne as mych by thys waye as by the tother and more excepte the multytude of prestes wolde for y e redynesse to take it where it is all redy moue theym that haue it to do these other thyngê fyrst leue theyr dettê vnpaied theyr wroÌ„gê vnrecoÌ„peÌ„sed which y t the multitude of prestê do I neuer herd yet aâ—y honest laye man that wolde for very shame say For I thynke it were harde to mete with a prest that wâ—re so wreched but that yf he were asked in y t point his adâ—â—ce couÌ„sayle he wold in so playn a point though it were but for very shame well playnely couÌ„sayle the trouth And if percase there were some fouÌ„den so shamelesse that they wolde geue counsayle contrary yet am I very sure they shuâ—de be farre the fewer parte and not as thys good mannys fyrste booke sayth the more parte and the multytude ¶ And therfore syth this order that this good maÌ„ here moueth is so good and so cherytable I neuer blamed hym for the mocyoÌ„ But though this mocioÌ„ in this boke be good I myght well and so I dyd blame his other booke not for this mocyon but for another mater that is bycause it labored vnder pretexte of an vntrew report to brynge the spyrytualtye in slawnder and obloquy amonge the temporaltye by makynge men wene that of this cherytable order whyche he now moueth the multytude of the spyritualty induced men to y e coÌ„trary ¶ This is lo the thynge that I blamed And therfore lyke as thys good man sayeth that one plaster can not he le all soores so surely thys same salue of this good cherytable mocion can not serue this good cherytable man to salue and he le well this vncherytable soore ¶ In this mocion of this cherytable order thys good manne waxeth so warme that of a good zele he falleth in remembraunce of the soule which our lorde perdon of the moste noble prynce of very famouse memory kynge Henry the .vii. father to the most excellent prynce our souerayne lorde the kynge that now is wherin after mencyon made of obitys and chauntrees lettyng the dew examynacyon requysyte for restytucion sodaynly thus he sayth How be it the ryght noble prynce of blessed memory kynge Henry the .vii. father of our souerayne lorde the kynge that now is wylled restytucyons to be made But how hys wyll was performed I can not tell How be it what so euer was done therin I suppose hys good entent suâ—fyseth to hym ¶ What yf thys good man can not tell By lykelyhed there is nothyng owynge to hym therof For yf there were than were it lykely y t he could tell For he coulde tell than that all the wyl were not performed I haue herde I wote well that the kyng our souerayne lorde delyuered great substaunce into thexecutours handes to fulfyll the wyll wythall Whyche how they haue bestowed thys good man maye yf he haue thauthoryte call them to the rekenynge And yf he neyther haue authorite to call for the accompte nor haue nothyng owyng to hym neyther the mater than towcheth not hym so nere nor so specyally perteyneth vnto hym y t he shold greatly nede to geue all the worlde warnynge thus y t hym selfe is not made of counsayle how the kynges wyll is performed ¶ But here wyll this good man say y t I do but mocke him wherin I wyl not greately stycke wyth hym But surely for my pore wyt me thynketh it somwhat more ciuilite in some such poyntes as this is a lytell
merely to mokke hym thaÌ„ wyth odyouse ernest argumeÌ„tes seryousely to preace vppon hym Whyche I wolde also be very loth to do for chargyng of myn owne conscyence And therfore in all thynges y t me thynke are of greate weyght though I touche his wordê I accuse not his own mynde intent For in good fayth I haue of y t man good trust y t he meneth no wurse but wold all thyng were well hym self but euer more my mynde geueth me y t some wyly shrewes abuse y e good mannes simplicyte The .x. chapyter HIs .x. chapyter begynneth in the xxxiii lefe wherin he towcheth certayne wordê of myne wryten in the .xxvii. chapyter of myne apologye that begynneth fo 162. wherin he varyeth not mych with me sauynge in that I say that yf the prelates of y e chyrch wold wythdrawe from theyr worldely coÌ„tenaunce as is kepynge of honestley men in theyr seruyce and kepynge of a good wurshypfull table and wold bestow theyr plate the moste parte of all theyr mouables at ones vppon poore folke and yerely after the moste of theyr yerely reuenus to of whiche mynde I sayd I durste warraunt well that some prelates be yf that wolde as I saye there amende all these grudges that I durste be bolde to warraunt as well also that yf the prelates so dyd the selfe same folke that now grudge and call them proude for theyr countenaunce wold than fynde as great a grudge call them ypochrytes for theyr almoyse and wolde saye that they spende vppon noughty beggers the good that was wont to kepe good yomen and that therby they both enfeble and also dyshonour the realme ¶ Vppon these wordes of myn this good man maketh me forsothe a full goodly sermoÌ„ in the .xxxv. lefe of his booke where he begynneth it with these wordes I can not se. And veryly yf he had there left gone no ferther it had ben well inough For as for the thyng that he speketh of it appereth by hys wordes he can not se very well in dede ¶ Bycause chryst commaundeth in the gospell y t we shall not iudge and that saynt Poule sayth also who art thou that iudgest another maÌ„nes seruaunt and agayne byddeth vs that we iudge not before the tyme al whiche places are vnderstand of iugyng certayne and determinate persons to do euyll in the thynges that we se them do where the thynges be but indyfferent of them selfe and maye be done not euyl onely but well also this good man therfore layeth these textys to touche me for iudgyng that some folke whom I neyther assigne by name nor as yet knowe not who they be wyll do euyll hereafter by mysse iudgynge other men ¶ I wene verely that saynt Poule hym selfe at the tyme whan he forbode vs to â—iudge before the tyme did euyn than iudge that some wolde after that misse iudge and iudge before the tyme to ¶ And albe it that our sauyour saith that who so call hys brother fole is gylty to the fyre â— yet he ment not of him y t wold say that there were some folys abrode in the worlde For yf he so ment than wolde there not tenne fyrys be payne inough for hym that wrote these wordes in the scrypture There are of folys an infynyte nomber ¶ And bycause this good man vseth somtyme thys fygure of examynacyon I wolde wytte of mayster More thiâ— that I wolde nowe wytte thys one thynge of thys good man Suche sawtes as he fyndeth wyth the spyrytualty wryten in hys boke of dyuysyon whyther dyd he than iudge y t some of the spyrytualtye wolde fall in them any more after or not If he iudged that all theyr fantasyes towarde those fawtes were all redy passed before and that none of them wolde neuer do more so than hadde he lytel cause to write all that wurke vppon theym And vn the tother syde yf he iudged that some of them wolde afterwarde do some such thynges agayne eyther but yf he gaue theym warnynge or ellys though he dyd as I dare saye what so euer hym selfe saye in some of those thynges he dyd than syth y e tyme in which he iudged in his mynd made hym selfe therof sure y t some of theym wolde do some suche euyll thynges afterwarde as were at the tyme of the same iudgement of hys mynde not comen hym selfe fell as you se by hys owne argument in the daynger of that prohybycyon y t hym selfe bryngeth in by whyche saynte Poule forbedeth and sayth Nolite ante tempus iudicare Iudge you not before the tyme. ¶ Now yf he say that I tell whom I mene though not by name yet by a sygne and a token in that I saye euyn the same wyll than call theym ypocrytes for theyr almoyse that nowe call theym proude for theyr worldely countenaunce he muste consyder that I neyther tell nor can tell who be they nor though I saye the same I saye not yet all the same And therfore no more mysse iudge any man determynately and in certayne than he that wolde saye thus as many men saye in dede Euyn they that go now full fresshe in theyr garded hosyn and theyr gaye golden reuen shyrtes and in theyr sylken sleuys that nought haue to bere it out but gamynge wyll ones I warrauÌ„t you fall fro gamynge to stelynge start strayt out of sylke into hempe Thus sayeth and thus iudgeth ye wote well many a man and yet meneth not that it shall so mysse happe them all but that some shall amende and do better and that yet hys worde wyll be veryfyed in many so doth it proue in dede and he that so sayth before is farre inough fro the dayngeour of all those textes whych this good man precheth to me ¶ But than he sayth ferther that he trusteth that those prelates whom I saye I durste warraunt to be of such mynde wyll not dyfferre theyr good purpose for no suche suspycyon that happely wyll neuer come ne yet for no such vncherytable wordê though they were spoken in dede And thervppon he descendeth to the makyng of actys of perleament ¶ If those prelates that I mene of rekened them self very sure y t all the wytte and the lernynge that is in the worlde or within this realme eyther were eyther in theyr owne hedys or in this good maÌ„nes and myne which peraduenture for myne owne mynde colde agre well with this good man in this poynt and aduise those prelates that I speke of to folowe theyr owne mynde therin and out of hande euyn so to do thaÌ„ haue I lytell dowt but that they wold euyn so do in dede But some of them haue ofter ben as I suppose than onys where they haue herde both wyse and good folke to and peraduenture yet sholde here agayne yf it were as thys man wold haue it spoken of in the playne open perleament that wolde not fayle to dyssuade it and laye no lytell causes why ¶ But I wyl not at this
not haue told yt after them Nor nowe sholde he not sende me to serche and seke theym but to saue hys owne honesty leste men myght thynke he fayned he sholde seke out brynge forthe some of those shrewd sayers hym selfe ¶ A nother thynge thys man toucheth in the same chapyter concernynge that seconde sorte of people whome I saye in some places of myne Apologye that thys man calleth polytyques And here he declareth that he doth not so and proueth yt by lyke wordes spoken of a good mannys mouthe by an hypocryte of whome a man maye say Thys man vseth hym self as he were a vertuouse man and yet cal hym not vertuouse And so myght this man saye y t they spake heresyes as of polycye and yet call theym not polytyque ¶ But here must he now consyder y t who so speke suche wordes in such fashyon by an hyprycryte sayth yt in hys desprayse and in detestacyon of suche hypocrysye and therfore he that so sayeth sheweth y â— by such wordes he taketh not y e hypocrite for vertuouse And therfore reade good readers this mannys whole processe of hys thre sortes of people to gether whych you shall fynde in the .xxi. chapyter of myne apologye fo 123 and then yf you fynd his wordes of theyr spekyngâ— suche heresyes as of polycye in lyke maner spoken by hym in dysprayse of heretyques as he putteth here his sample of those wordes spoken by a good man in dysprayse of hypocrites not spoken by a way of geuynge theym by that worde as of polycye a colourable excuse for defence of sewynge they re heresye than am I contente that euery man take yt that I mysse reporte hym shamefully And ellys I truste loke in all the places in whyche I speke therof and you shal soon iudge that vpppon hys wordes vsed to suche purpose as he there vseth theym I may wel vse the wordê of hys polytykes in suche wyseâ—as I vse yt ¶ And as for the tynkar and the tyler that he speketh of in the ende of the chapyter and sayth god forbede but that theyâ— were dysmyssed and wente home aboute theyr besynesse yf they can by any reasonable and trewe allegeaunce so order theym selfe that yt maye appere that they oughte to be dysmyssed of iustyce therin holde I well wyth hym and god forbede ellys to for els myghte they lese betwene theym the tone the pryce of hys trewell and the tother of his clouted ketyll But loke good readers in myne Apology the .xlviii. chapyter whych begynneth fo 272 and that done I doute not but you shall fynde for the tylare and the tynkare for heresy there called in of offyce this good word so spoken here but a very vayne worde of offyce and that the tynkare wolde haue tynked oute of hys pannes botome a reason that wolde at the leste wyse rynge a lytle better then thys The .xii. chapyter HIs .xii. chapiter begynneth in the xxxviii lefe whych bycause yt ys a good swete sermone a shorte made vnto my selfe to put me in remembraunce howe I shold â—ere the lyke lyght fautê of other men as I some tyme fall in my self I shal take his chapyter in here euyn hole Lo good readers thus yt sayth MAyster More in the .217 lefe of hys Apology speking of defautes that as he thynketh shulde haue ben leyde for causes of thys dyuysyon concludeth thus If there be such a dyuysyoÌ„ wherby it appereth that he doubteth whether there be any diuysyon or not for this coniunccion yf purporteth alway a doubte And after in the same Apologye fo 241. he confesseth playnely that there is a dyuysyon and maketh no doute at yt and he calleth yt there the late spronge dyuysyon And so in one place to make a doute whether there be suche a dyuysyon or not and in a nother place to agre that there ys suche a dyuysyon semeth to be a varyaunce and contradyccyon in yt selfe howe be yt surely I do not intende to laye that varyaunce to hym as for any notable defaute For a lyke thynge may soon happen in any man by a lyght ouersyght But the cause why I speke of yt is this to put hym in remeÌ„braunce that he hereafter ought the rather to beare suche lyghte defauteâ— of oâ—her the more charytably syth he hym selfe hath lyke wyse ben oueâ— sene For we be all â—rayle ignorant and vnstable though we be estymed and taken as angels in cure conuersacyon And therfore ys yt sayde in the fyrste boke of the folowynge of Cryste the .xvi. chapyter that no man is in this worlde wythout defaute no man wythoâ—te burden no man suffycyent to hym selfe no man wyse ynough of hym selfe Wherfore yt behâ—ueth eche one of vs to beare the burden of other to comforte other to helpe other to enformâ— other and to instructe and admonysh other in al charytie And yf we wyll note well the sayde wordes we shall the sooner lerne thys lesson to do in al thynges as we wolde be done to and to do nothyng that we wold not haue done to be And that is as I takâ— yt one of the moste souerayne doctrynes that is to instructe a man how he shall in eâ—ery thynge conceâ—nynge hys neyghbour kepe hym selfe in a clere conscyence lerne yt who so may◠¶ Lo good readers fyrste he bryngeth forth myne ouersyght in contradyccyon vsed betwene myne owne wordes and after wyth good wordes and fayre excuseth my faute by suche ouersyght of frayltye as maye soone happen in a man And then he puttâ—th me after in remembraunce that I muste bere suche thynges the more charitably in other men syth I am ouersene lykewyse my selfe He fareth in all this tale as though we sat to gether playeng at post For fyrste he casteth my contradiccion as a vye to wyt whyther I wold geue yt ouer with a face And bycause that wyll not be falleth after to treatye and wold fayâ—e parte the stacke and diuide all such ouersyghtes betwene vs. But all this is in vayne for I am as sure of this game and there lay xx.li vppon yt as he that hathe thre acys in his hande ¶ For loke good readers in his own fyrste chapyter of thys booke of hys and there shall you se the thyng thaâ— shall serue me suffycyently shewâ—â— euyn by hys owne wordes that there ys no suche contradyccyon in myne And than loke myne auswere to the same and than shall you se yt yet more clerely Or ellys yf any man be lothe to tourne the leuys and loke bakke ye shall nede to take no besynesse in tournynge bakke at all For he soyleth hys argument hym selfe agaynste hym selfe euyn in the makynge therof and all wyth one worde vnware ¶ For nowe rede yt agayne and you shall se that he sayeth hym selfe in the tone place I saye If there be any suche dyuysyon And so bycause thys coniunccyon If he sayth inporteth all waye a doute therfore he sayth that fo .217 I doute whyther there be any
suche dyuysyon or not And after he sayth that in the tother place I confesse that there ys a dyuysyon and call yt there the late sprongen dyuysyon Lo nowe he forgetteth thys lytle shorte worde this monasyllable Suche whych he rehersed fyrste in bryngynge forthe my fyrste place and then by and by eyther of forgetefulnes or ellys of wylynesse leueth oute in hys illacyon that he maketh vppon the same wordes of myne ¶ Nowe good readers you se well that to saye there is a dyuysyon and to saye there ys no suche dyuysyon be nothynge contrarye at all For I dyd in dede not deny but that some dyuysyon there was that ys to wytte some lytle varyaunce in some place begonne and by some fewe naughtye folke blowne forthe to farre For a lytle waye ys to farre in suche a thyng But than meane I a dyuysyon such as yt ys not suche a dyuysyon as thys man by hys booke maketh yt I maye well wythoute contradyccyon saye to hym There ys a dyuysyon and yet saye that there ys no suche dyuysyon as he speketh of For yt is not all one to saye there ys a dyuysyon and â—o saye there ys suche a dyuysyon ¶ Nowe yf I wolde stycke wyth hym vpon tryflys I coulde proue hym that If dothe not alwaye purporte a doute as he sayeth that yt alwaye dothe but ys sometyme vsed to conferme a certayntye As yf a man say he that dyeth in dedely synne shal go to the deuyll yf goddes word be trewe douteth not of the trouthe of goddes worde but by the trouthe therof meaneth to coÌ„ferme the damnacyon of theym that dye in dedely synne ¶ But I saye not this as though yt sholde be lyke in myne For I do not in dede take If there in such fashion And therfore I wyll not do here by If as thys man doth by As in hys chapyter nexte byfore in heresyes spoken as of polycye vsynge y e sample of wordes spoken by a good man in reprochynge of hypocrysee to be lyke hys owne wordes spoken in the mynyshynge of they re blame that vnder suche pretexte of polycye wolde speke and sow aboute playne and open heresye I nede here no suche wayes for my wordes For here haue you sene your selfe by his owne wordes that there ys in my wordes no contradyccyon at all The .xiii. chapyter HIs .xiii. chapiter begynneth in the xxxix lefe and by y e rehersynge of diuerse wordes of his owne in dyuers other places of his boke here he declareth his mynde that he entended not in his boke of diuysyon to brynge in among the people any hatered agaynste the spyrytualtye ¶ Now in dede I do my self declare expressely in many places of myne apologye that what so euer wordes I speke therin yet I ment euer more th entent of hys boke and not of hys person And all though that in some places I say the pacyfyer here doth this or that to this euyll purpose or that yet I mene euer the dede his the malyce of the purpose some other wyly shrewys whyche not beynge fully of so good catholyke mynde as I thynke all waye this man is hym self which openly dysprayseth these new broched heresyes and with detestacyon of them reherseth them by name haue abused his playn simplycyte makyng him wene good sowle y u while he dyd put in of his own good mynde these good wordes whych he reherseth here and with them here there in some sondry places pretyly powder y e boke it coulde not be taken that there were any hurt ment in the hole worke togyther how euyll wordes and how malycyouse so euer the sotle shrewys made hym stuffe vp y e boke with bysyde Was not that a synful wily way of theÌ„ to begyle a good symple soule so For I wysse it is eth to se that yf the good man were not of hym self very simple playn those dowble wyly shrewes coulde neuer deceyue hym so as to make hym wene that these wordes whych he reherseth here in his .xiii. chapyter were any maner token that his boke of diuisyon ment not to brynge the clergye in hatered amonge the people ¶ For who were there that so intendynge wolde yet for shame vtterly say that there were none good and not rather to kepe his credence in slawnderynge the body wolde caste in sometyme an excepcyon of some In suche crafte is no great sleyght It is but a comen playne poynt and as easy to spye as a longe nose vpon a lytell face specyally whyle as clerely as he sayth that there be many good yet as you maye se folio .238 of myne apology he sayth playnely that it is harde to fynde any one with out that poynt that yf he saye therin trew the very beste is very nought and as badde as a very beste And for y e ferther profe of this point rede myne answere to hys .xvii. chapyter in thys boke ¶ And where he speketh here of the fere that he wold euery man sholde haue of the leste censures of the chyrche as though he therin ment myche the fauour of spyrytuall men consyder the place euyn here in hys new boke where he speketh of inquysycyons oâ— heresyes in his .xvii. chapyter and you shall well perceyue that they that made hym there put those wordes in ment lytell good to y e clergye For it is there layed in a mater full chyldyshly to theyr charge as though they wolde haue all the iustyces of the peace and all the iuryes of the realme accursed for enquyrynge of heresye ¶ But yet is it of all thyngê a vâ—ry specyall pleasure to se how he vseth here for a playne apparent profe of hys good mynde towarde the spyrytualty that he wisheth wel for them and prayeth god to sende them habuÌ„dauntely zele of sowles pitye good doctryne and deuowt prayour And sayth that than a new lyght of grace sholde shortely shyne c. and that he sayth also that it is great pytye and mych to be lamented that the spyrytualtye do not faste and praye and do other good dedes to ceace the dyuysyon withall but y t all that euer they do therin moste comenly is that they take it that they that fynde defawte at theyr abusyons and mysse order loue no prestes but do all of malyce that they do to destroye the chyrche and to haue theyr goodes and possessyons them selfe and that therfore the clergye thynke it a good dede to se them punyshed and therfore that is to saye for that same cause haue they punyshed many persons which mych people iudge to haue ben done of wyll c. And sayth also that they do coÌ„tinue styl after theyr old course preteÌ„dyng by coÌ„federacyes worldly polycye and strayte correccyons to rule the peple where he vseth these thynges whyche I haue here rehersed out of his .xiii. chapiter of this his newe boke and somwhat made them more playne with addyng therto his owne other wordes wryten in his diuysyon as you maye rede
thre wurshypfull wytnesses whiche stand yet all vnsworne that is to wyt Some saye and They say Folke say And than hath he now brought forth other two whome he maketh as me semeth bothe as wytnesses iudges to that is the good sely sowle Symkyn Salem and his ryght honest neyghbour brother Byzance Well I am content I y t all his fyue wytnesses be sworeÌ„ wel examined how they know the thyngê that they reporte than those spyrytuall iudges of whom they shall so speke and proue set it be layed vnto theyr charges And yf you fynde of suche so many and theyr dealynge so cruell or vniuste as this man maketh it or any thynge well towarde it than am I content that ye shall for them byleue all the remanauÌ„t the wurse And yet is y t I wysse somwhat with the most And than am I content that you byleue also that this man had for that cause a necessary occasion and a profytable to put y t tale in his bate makynge boke ¶ But in the mene whyle I laye agaynste hym for y t point and agaynst all his fyue wurshypfull wytnesses to the dede the reporte of y e gretest and the moste honorable temporall lordes of the kynges most honorable counsayle and other ryght wurshypfull temporall men of the same with them whiche by the gracyouse commauÌ„dement of the kinges hyghnesse haue examyned dyuerse suche complayntes at the suit of y e partyes theÌ„ selfe and theyr frendes haue theruppon founden the same complayntê false that thordynaryes haue done them but ryght and that wyth great fauour to ¶ And therfore as for thys poynte the treuthe beynge so substancyally proued vppon this syde by all hys fyue forenamed wytnesses on the tother syde sette I not fyue strawes And therfore good reders as for this poynt his puttynge of that pyece in hys boke of diuisyon had neyther necessyte nor profyte excepte it were eyther necessary or profytable to sow a euyll sede agaynste good folke of vntrew reprouable slaunder in hys owne wrytynge vnder the colour of some other meÌ„nes vnproued wordê ¶ Than resteth there as farre as I can se but one cause byhynde y t shold excuse hym And that is that it was a thynge profytable for the people to know that though a man of a lyghtnesse or of a passyon growynge of ignoraunce or of frayltye speke and â—alke heresyes at lybertye yet but yf he defende it opinatyuely he shold not be taken for an heretyke therby Deryly good readers yf thys tale were trewe yet wolde I wene as I sayde this tale vnto the people as good vnwryten as wryten a great dele better to ¶ As for thys good man or any man ellys I can not let theym to wryte what they lyste and saye they thynke it good be it neuer so badde in dede But I durste in my conscyence no more vse thys fashyon of wrytynge concernynge heresye than I wolde vse it in wrytynge any boke wherof I wolde speke of eyther treason or any other felony excepte some other necessary occasyon sholde happely dryue me therto as no good occasyon in hys booke of dyuysyon droue this good man therto ¶ If I were agayne to reade in Lyncolns Ine there were in hande wyth a statute that touched treason and all other felonyes I wolde not let to loke seke out and reherse whyther any heyghnouse wordes spoken agaynst the prynce were for the onely spekynge to be taken for treason or not ¶ Nor I wolde not let in lyke wyse to declare if I founde out any casyâ— in whyche a man though he toke an other mannes horse agaynst the law sholde yet not be iudged for a felon therby And this wolde I not onely be bolde there to tell them but wolde also be bolde in such french as is peculiare to the lawys of this realme to leue it wyth them in wrytynge to But yet wold I reken my selfe sorâ— ouer sene yf all suche thynges as I wolde in that scole speke in a redyng I wolde in englysh into euery mannys hand put out abrode in prent For there is no such necessyte therin as is in the tother For in y e places of court these coÌ„panies must nedes be taught it oute of whyche companyes they must after be taken that shal be made iudges to iudge it But as for the comon people to be tolde that tale shall as farre as I se do many folke lytell good but rather very great harme For by perceyuyng that in some thinges were no thynge the perell that they ferede some may waxe therin more neglygent and by lesse ferynge y e lesse dayngeour may soone steppe into the more And therfore haue I wyste ere thys the iudges of a great wysedome in great open audyence where they haue hadde occasyon to speke of hyghe mysseprisyon or of treason forbere yet the sayenge of some suche thynges as they wolde not haue letted to speke among them selfe ¶ If any man wold happely thynke that it were well done that euery maÌ„ were taught all and wollde aledge therfore that if he know surely what thynge wolde make hys behauour hygh treason or heresye than though he wolde aduenture all that euer were vnder that yet wold he be peraduenture the more ware to kepe hym selfe well from that as many a man though he byleue that he shall abyde greate payne in purgatory for hys venyall synnes dothe for all that no greate dylygence in forberynge of them and yet for y e feare of perpetuall payne in hell taketh very greate hede to kepe hym selfe frome those synnes that he surely knoweth for mortall ¶ As for suche venyall synnes as folke of fraylty so comenly do fall in that no man is almoste any tyme wythout theym though the profyte wolde be more yf men dyd wene they were mortall so that the drede therof coulde make menne vtterly forbere theym yet syth it wyll not be that men wyll vtterly forbere them the knowlege of the trouth is necessary for them leste euery tyme that they do suche a veniall synne in dede wenyng that it were mortall the doyng of the dede wyth the conscyence of a mortall synne myghte make it mortall in dede ¶ But of any such kynde of veniall synnes as be not so mych in custume and may be more easyly forborne I neuer founde any wyse man to my remembrauÌ„ce that wold eyther wryte or teche the comune peple so exactly as to say though you do thus farre yet is it no dedely synne but wyll in suche thynges syth the veniall synne it self is a drawyng toward y e dedely rather leue the people in dowt and in drede of dedely synne and thereby cause them to kepe them selfe farre of from it than by tellynge theym it is but a venyall synne make them the lesse aferde to do it and so come so myche the nerâ—r to mortall synne and assaye how nere he canne come to it and not do it tyll he come
puttyng awaye of that law be better for the kepyng of the catholyke fayth in this land ye or better other wyse for this land without the minisshement of the fayth in the same than am I well coÌ„tent that ye compte thys good man bothe for very wyse and for very faithfull to But now yf you fynde by myne answere on y e tother side y t al his reasoÌ„s in this poynt are not worth one rysshe towarde the profe of any necessary cause of chaunge but hys reason and his argumentê alway such therin y t eyther they be byelded vppon a faâ—se ground or ellys yf he make any that happen to be true yf ye fynde it yet but such as by the selfe same reason yf men wolde vnwysely folowe it there myghte no lawe neyther longe laste nor yet no law be made yf you fynd I say his reasons agaynst this law but suche ye wyll than I dowt not thynke it but good reason for all his riall reasonyng to let y e law stand ¶ But than yf ye fynde â—erther yet as I wote well ye shall that the chauÌ„ge that he wolde make vnder a nedeles pretence of preseruyng innocentes out of dayngeour and parell and can not proue that thys hundred yere any one was wronged with it sholde cause heretykes to be bolde take corage encreace and for lacke of this law the catholyke fayth to dekaye than wyll you not I wote wel let to tell thys man that he lacketh in this mater how gay so euer he make it either wyt or which wurse were loue to the chrysten fayth ¶ The tother thynge y t I requyre you shall your selfe se reasonable For it serueth to the clere perceiuyng of vs bothe how both he and I bere our selfe in this mater And I shall not requyre therin parcyally for my parte but a requeste indyfferent and egall for vs bothe syth ye shall the clerer therby perceyue where about we bothe goo and where any of vs bothe swarue a syde fro the mater and to hyde the trouth out of syghte slynke into lurkys lane ¶ My request is no more but that it maye lyke you to take the laboure and payne for perceyuynge of the trowth from the begynnynge to peruse the whole mater as farre as perteyneth to the chaunge of this lawe ¶ Reade fyrste hys owne wordes in his owne boke of dyuysyon And after reade myne answere in myne apologye whyche you shall fynde in the fourtyth chapyter the .218 lefe and his wordê to therwyth And whanne those two thynges be bothe fresshe in your mynde reade thanne this his fyftenthe chapyter of thys booke wyth myne answeres euery where added therunto and than haue I whan this is done lytell dowte of your iudgement ye shall se the mater proue agaynste thys good man playne ¶ In hys .xv. chapyter good readers he wolde make men wene that he suffycyentely proueth thre thynges The tone is that it were none hurte to chaunge now this olde lawe The secunde thynge is that it were great hurte to kepe it The thyrde that suche samples of the lawes of thys realme as I resembled vnto the suit ex officio I resemble against reason they be so farre vnlyke ¶ Into these thre poyntes therfore wyll I deuyde thys chapyter that the reader may the better se in what parte he is ¶ I shall reherse you fyrst here his whole wordes togyther that he bryngeth for the fyrste poynte Lo good readers these they be THen to the conuentynge of men before spyrytuall iudges ex officio and wherupon mayster More sayth in his apology fo 219. that yf it were lefte the stretes were lykely to swarme full of heretikes Heryly I mâ—ruayle right moche at his sayeng therin and that for this cause It is certayne that no man maye after the lawe be detected of heresye but that there is some man that knoweth the cause before why he oughte so to be For yf it be secrete in hys owne breste none can be hys iudge but god onely that is the sercher of manâ— herte And yf any wyl â—dâ—owe that he knoweth the caâ—se and wyl denounce hym as an heretyke therfore thaÌ„ it is reasoÌ„ y t he be taken as his accuser And yf he wyll not aduow to be his accuser yf yâ— to thynke that he doth yt of some malyce or crafte rather then for the trouth of the mater And yf he saye he daâ—e not for fere of hiâ— lyfe auow yt I haue shewed a meane in the .vii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse how the wytnesse maye be saued from daunger as by shewynge the mater to the kynge and hys counsayle and that then yt is not to suppose nor so to thynke but that they wyll pronyde suffycyently for the indempnyte of the wytnesse in that behalfe And this remedye mayster More denyeth not to be conuenyent for this realme And yet he wyll not assent that a lawe be made that yt shall be so And then yf the wytnesse wil not auow it but an other wyl geue credence to hym and auow yt then yt semeth reasonable that they y t wyll gyue credence therto a wyl reporte yt be taken as accusers takynge those wytnesse for theyr warraunte yf yt be denyed ¶ In these wordes lo good readers you se howe he proueth hys fyrste poynt that of the chauÌ„ge of this law by puttynge awaye this suyt ex officio wherin wythoute any specyall accuser offerynge hym selfe as party the suspecte may be called in before the iudge ex officio that is to wyt by reason of his office there could none harme growe at all ¶ And howe dothe he nowe proue vs this poynt He proueth yt as you se fyrst by certain reason put presupposed for a grounde then after that by a certayne order that hym â—elfe shortly diuyseth and setted vp vppon the same Hyâ— ground and his foundacion is this yt is certayn he sayth that no man may after the law be detected of heresye but that there is some man that knoweth the cause before why he ought so to be ¶ Very trouth yt is that no man can be detected except a man detect hym self but yf some other se some thyng in hym wherfore he sholde seme nought some one thinge or other that they whych perceyue it suspect hym therfore them selfe And therfore as for this ground this good man and I wyll not greatly stryue ¶ Then foloweth his order that he dyuyseth byesdeth vp theruppon thus And yf any wyll aduow that he knoweth the cause and wyll denounce hym an heretyke therfore then is yt reason that he be taken as his accuser ¶ This is a ryght good reason and the spirituall lawe wyll not refuse so to take hym accept hym for an accuser yf he will and then wyll they not in that case vse the suit ex officio For in that case it nedeth not But nowe what yf he that knoweth it secretly detecteth it peradueÌ„ture four or fyue and
where they dare not he deuiseth a remedy whych seldome yet or neuer suffycyentely shall serue the mater And the tother cause that I call moost commune as in very dede it is that cause he neyther denyeth nor any one word speketh of it but softely slynketh besyde it as though he hadde neuer redde yt what maner of answerynge good readers call you this ¶ More ouer lest he myght deny me that I sayde trewe therin I layed there for the profe the playne comen experyence whiche this good man hym selfe I am very sure but yf he be a recluse and haue ben all his lyfe knoweth well to be true and in dede he sayth not nay ¶ Then go I there farther yet and I declare what profyte there cometh to the commen weale to geue suche folke herynge such folke I saye as this good man wolde haue reiected backe and taken for false or malycyouse bycause they come secretly and wyll not theym selfe openly bycome accusers Therin lo these are my wordes â—And yet shal he sometyme geue the namys of dyuerse other whyche beynge called by the iudge and examyned as wytnesses agaynst theyr wyllys both knowe and wyll also depose the trouthe and he that fyrste gaue enformacyon also and yet wil neuer one of theym wyllyngly make hym selfe an open accuser of the party nor dare peraduenture for his earys ¶ This thynge good readers euery man euery where fyndeth trewe that any order of iustyce in his hande And in these wordes you se well I tolde hym there ones agayn not onely that some dare not but that though men dare they wyll not excepte the thynge do pryuately touche theym selfe for the causes of the commen weale become open accusers And as I agayne there tolde yt hym so he here agayne forgeth yt ¶ Then go I yet forthe a lytle farther and these are there my wordes And this fynde we not onely in heresye but in many temporall maters amonge our selfe wherof I haue had experyence many a tyme and oft both in the dysclosynge of felonyes and somtyme of myche other oppressyon vsed by some one man or twayn in a shyre wherby all theyr neyghbours sore smarted and yet not one durste openly complayne ¶ Lo thus I there declared good reders by coÌ„men eyperyence that if meÌ„ shold do as this man here deuyseth reiecte euery man for malycyouse crafty y t wil geue secrete informacioÌ„ but yf he be coÌ„tent to bycome an accuser opeÌ„ly there sholde myche harme growe therof not in heresyes onely but besyde y t in myche other myschief to To al this gere you se good readers that this good man playeth as though he caÌ„e in in a muÌ„mery for any one word he sayth whyche shold not so haue scaped hym ye may be very sure but that he sawe full surely that he coulde neuer answere them For though he wold haue denyed all that I speke of myne owne experyence yet in the lyke thynges so many men of worshyp dayly do proue the thynge trew that I tell yt for that he could nothyng wynne in his cause by al that denyenge And yet dyd I not myne own selfe my besynesse in such wyse but that I can yf nede requyre proue it playne inough But of thys gere as I sayd he denyeth nothynge nor answereth nothyng neyther thervnto And sure maye you be y t if he had coulde he wold not haue fayled to haue done the tone ¶ And therfore good readers my wordes stand styll so sure that thys good man hath not yet nor neuer shal whyle he lyueth be able to voyde them with all the crafte he can but that yf men wolde be so farre ouersene as in thys mater to folow hys deuice to put awaye thys olde lawe the suit ex officio and truste that all wolde be well holpen by meane of open accusers it wolde at lengthe come to passe the thyng that I haue sayd that y e stretes were well lykely to swarm full of heretikes ere euer that ryght few shold be therof accused or peraduenture any one heretyke eyther ¶ And now good chrysten readers syth you se so clerely that by suche chaungynge of that law y e catholyke fayth shold decaye I care not now greately what he saye for his second parte syth he hath so fowle an ouer throwe in the fyrste vppon whiche fyrste parte all the mater hangeth For though he coulde in his seconde parte make you now good profe not onely that there myght but also that there dyd hath done greate harme grow by that suyte whiche he shall neuer proue you whyle he liueth but at sundry tymes that of late where it hath ben so surmysed it hath alway be proued the contrary yet syth you se well that by this chaunge that he deuyseth while we wold helpe these harmes that he speketh of that is to wytte that no man sholde be conuented of heresye causelesse we shold by the prouydyng for that harme be the cause of farre more hurt and harme in the stede that is to wyt that when that suyte were so chaunged the catholyque fayth sholde dekaye and heretyques so sholde encrease that by such insurreccions as they haue here byfore made not in other countreys onely but in this realme of EnglaÌ„d haue also atteÌ„pted y â— same put yt vppon the parell assey to robbe spoyle and kyll also myche innocent people openly and tourne folke from the fayth by force and worke other maner of maystryes many mo suche aâ— myne harte abhorret so myche as to reherse or name Syth euery man may se I say that suche harme were in parel to fal by this chaunge of hisâ— there wyll I wene no wyse man folow his fonde deuyse in puttyng this law away all though he proued wel in his seconde parte that there were harme in the kepynge whyle he can not defende the coÌ„â—rorye but y t there were incoÌ„parably mych more harme in the leuynâ—e ¶ But by what waye he proueth y â— there is great hurt in the kepyng that shall we now coÌ„syder After whyche well examyned I shall agayne retourne good readers efte soon vnto the fyrst that this suyt ex officio takeÌ„ onys away the stretes wâ—re lykely to swarme full of heretykes And as clere as you se that ponte al redy and that this man hath therin neyther answered nor ones touched suche thynges as your selfe se that I sayd therin before yet shall I make yt you anon with the farther foly of his deuyse double ere we deê‘te so clere ¶ Concernynge the seconde parte thus lo thys man begynneth But â—o putte the partye that 〈◊〉 complayned on 〈◊〉 answere and to condempne hym yf he saye contrarye to that the wytnesse haue sayde not knowynge who â—e the wytnesse ne who be hys accusere yt sâ—meth not reasonable to be accepted for a law For as I haue sayde in the sayd treatyse yf he that is accused knewe theyr names that accused him he myght percase allege and proue so
great and so vehemenâ— cause of rancour and malyce in theÌ„ that accuse hym or beare wytnesse agaynst hym that theyr sayengeâ— by no law ought to stande agaynst hym as yf there were two men that had sworn the deth of an otherâ— and bycause they can not brynge yt about they ymagyne howe they maye brynge hym to all the shame and dexacyon that they can and theruppon they apeche hym of heresye yf he in thys case knewâ— theyr names he myght proue theyr rancour and malyce And bycause he knoweth them not he can not proue yt And also the wytnes may be such as shaâ— haue his landes by eschete after hys deth And yf it be sayde that these cases fall so seldomeâ— that yt ought lytell to be pondred so may yt be said lyke wyse that it falleth but seldome that the wytnessâ—â— in heresye stand in any feare of them that they accuse And then to make a generall lawe to prohybyte all men that they shulde not haue knoweledge of the wytnes in no case yt is not reasonable ¶ Now good readers one thynge opened vnto you whiche is trouth which thys man of wylynesse hydeth from you and wold make you wene the trouth were coÌ„trary deuyde after that knowen all this myschyefe vnreasonabylnes that he telleth vs here into .xx. partes with the bare knowledge of y e one trouth nynetene and a halfe of all hys false fayned mychyefes are gone ¶ The trouth is good chrysten readers that except onely one case wher of he speketh in his seueÌ„th chapiter of his deuysyon where to let the partie know the wytnesses were parell to whyche I haue answered hym bothe in myne apologye fyrste and synnys euen in this same chapyter byfore elles in all other cases the wytnesses whose deposicioÌ„s shal be takeÌ„ layed agaynste hym to proue hym an heretyque and vppon whyche deposycyon sentence of condemnynge hym for an heretyke shall be gyuen agaynste hym he shall se theym and shall here they re deposycyons to So that yf there be any suche great causes as this good man here ymagyneth that myght happen of enimyte or hope of lucre or any mych lesse either the iudge both may and wyll coÌ„syder them before the sentence ¶ But why shall he not know them forth with when he is fyrsâ—e conuented For yt were not well done he shold no more then the kynges couÌ„sayle that many tymes call malefactours byfore them vppon secrete informacyon fyrste vse alway there by by to dysclose who told them the mater and what whych if they shold and by and by brynge hym forth then though the suspecte wold coÌ„fesse happely some thynge therby the sooner yet sholde it be but that thynge which he thought the tother knew where as whyle y e thyefe knoweth not who hath gyuen the informacyon and yet thynketh by his examynacyon that among his many felowes though they be theuys all yet some false shrewes there be he mysse gesseth among and weneth yt were one where in dede yt was a nother so in stede of one felonye to lyght there cometh twayne ¶ But at a nother time in an other place byfore he shall haue any iudgement theruppon he shall coÌ„menly se them sworen and here them speke to ¶ And here I â—â—y coÌ„menly bycause that sometyme percase in poynt of iugement he shall not haue theÌ„ brought forth and sworen in his presence nor ê‘aduenture neuer heare them speke in the mater For they may happen to be some y â— deposed and died to before hym selfe were taken and some happely that were his felowes coÌ„fessed his felonyes at the galowes when they were on the lather And some ê‘aduenture bycame approuers vhen they were caste and called for a coroner and the lawe kepynge no store of him but hangyng hym vp forthwith vseth yet his informacyon all these other to whych may happen to coÌ„e so many to gether so likely to be trew that his lyfe may go therfore and he well worthy to and yet neyther hym selfe nor thenqueste neuer here any one witnesse sworen neither the fyrst nor the second neyther at thendyghtynge nor at hys arreyghnynge neyther ¶ Nowe maye yt so fortune in lyke wyse and sometyme so doth it to that folke some good and honeste depose in cause of heresye agaynst some one man that is detected therof And happely there depose also some other of hys owne affynyte and in deposynge agaynst that one man detecte by theyr deposycyons a nothâ—r man of y e selfe same coÌ„panye y t is then walked farre of no man can tel where y e appereth playnly vpon al theyr othes ê‘aduenture the very chyefe heretyke of all If he happe longe after when these wytnesses be dede to come agayne in to y e couÌ„trey and teache heresyes a freshe and one or twayne detecte hym they shall now be sworen and shall be brought forthe face to face byfore hym that he shall obiecte agaynste theym what he can byfore his iudgement passe But yet those olde deposycyons shall not serue for nought but are admonicula probationis though the men be dede And agaynst all reason were it that it were otherwyse Howe be yt what they sayde he shall here and also who they were ¶ Lo this is good chrysten readers the maner of that suyte wherof this good man wold here make vs wene the contrarye and that men were coÌ„menly condempned of heresye by deposycyons of those men whome he sholde neuer knowe And therfore syth the trouth is in dede that all the wrong whych he speketh of he grouÌ„deth vpon a playn vntrouth though he make not thys lye wyttyngly him self but hering some folke say so weneth that yt were trewe yet is as I sayde before all his reason spylt and as I tolde you the harme y t he sayeth in that poynt if he shold dyuyde it into â—wenty partes xix partes and an halfe were nowe clerely gone For there remayned but y â— one case which he wolde haue here seme comen and yet in his seueÌ„th chapytre of his fyrst boke he declareth hym selfe that the case is but specyall that is to wytte where the witnesses are kepte away for fere elles in all the remanaunt this mannys harmes that he layeth here agaynste the law be very clerely gone ¶ And therfore his two gay cases of swerynge a mannys deth wynnynge a maÌ„nys land by eschete haue place but in the specyall point of that one specyall lawe And yet are his two cases suche as well consydered are of no great effect For yf we shold regard those two cases y e publyshynge of the wytnesses names wold seldome remedy the mater For yt myght then as well hap that such folke myghte hyre other that sholde beare suche false wytnesse as do the thynge theym selfe and of lykelyhed so wolde they rather do ¶ But seynge that his cases for the farre fetchynge and lykelyhed of so seldome fortunynge were lykely to be takeÌ„ for fonde yet for
al theÌ„ y â— were membres of that generall counsayle and in all the wyttê of al chrysten regyons that haue vsed and allowed y t lawe for good euer synnys reason wolde I say that he sholde at the leste haue layed some reason here wherfore y e lawe can not please hym that he whiche though he be not proued gysty of the dede is yet proued suspecte shold purge hym selfe after tharbitrement of thordynarye that is to wytte in suche maner wyse as thordynary sholde thynke conuenyent vpoÌ„ the qualytees of y t person cyrcuÌ„stauÌ„ces of y e cause coÌ„sydered ¶ Suppose now y t there were none other maner of purgacion but by his neyghbours swerynge wyth hym that those wordê ad arbitriuÌ„ epi were not writen in the law were it yet reason to accepte his oth in what so euer maner the man wolde hym selfe deuyse it and with as few handes as hym selfe lyste appoynt and with what maner folke so euer hym selfe wolde brynge ¶ Nay syr For it may so be y t there shal be good cause why somtyme and in some place that thordynary sholde not putte some man to that kynde of purgacion which yf he dyd were he neuer so noughty he shold be sure of compurgatours peraduenture mo than inough ¶ For it hath ben sene in many cuÌ„treys ere this somtyme in england to that some euyll precher prechyng playne opeÌ„ heresyes shold yet if he myght haue ben put to such purgacyoÌ„ haue lacked none handes to lay on the boke with hym that he neuer spake suche wordes How be it where y e wordê are opeÌ„ playn heresye y e law hath ê“uided an other way for y e remedy good inough ¶ But thaÌ„ haue there ben some prechers such ere this y e techyng playne heresies to theyr familiars secretely wold prech in such wyse abrode that theyr wordê shold haue two senses one bote serue for eyther legge like a shypmans hose so shold be tempered as the peple shold haue occasyon alway to take them to the wurst and hym selfe yf he were examined wold say before thordinary swere to that he neuer ment but the beste ¶ Now whan it shold by good wytnesses appere y t his maner was such the peple toke mych harme therby alwaye toke his wordê so that they thought he so meÌ„t theÌ„ y â— he purposed by them to set forth aduauÌ„ce those thyngê y t were stark heresies in dede yf thordinary shold thaÌ„ appoint him with other coÌ„purgatours to purge this suspicioÌ„ were these suspicioÌ„s neuer so vehemeÌ„t he shold lacke no coÌ„purgatours to purge hym self euery weke thaÌ„ do as he dyd before And many good symple folke takyng him eueÌ„ as he ment shold fall into his heresyes y â— whyle wene while he preched so styll y t to byleue y e way were no perell ¶ And therfore those wise men that made y e law left y e thyng in thordinarys discrecioÌ„ to assigne hym that is proued suspect of heresy such kynde of purgacyon as the cyrcumstaunces of the person and the peple and the tyme shall most requyre ¶ And therfore wyll thordynary to some man so suspecte somtyme assygne hym to purge his suspycyon y t with his lewd maner of prechynge he is fallen in to the greate hurte of his herers that he shall openly confesse y t those heresyes that the people toke hym to mene be very salse here syes in dede and openly shall deteste them and swere that he so byleueth them to be and swere that he neither ment to teche theym nor neuer was mynded y t any maÌ„ shold take hym so nor neuer wold afterward teche nor hold heresies but abiure theÌ„ for euer ¶ And yet for the ferther purgacyoÌ„ of such suspicioÌ„ the ordynary myght also enioyne hym some certayn thynges to do suche as maye declare the more clereli y t he is not of such mind as open prechyng agaynste the selfe same heresyes the doynge of some suche thynges as those heresyes dyd stande agaynste ¶ And now by this purgacyon thys good shall he do that yf he wolde after preache the same thynges agayne though he vsed agayne such a nother wyly fashyon yet wolde his audyence then thynke thus as many as hadde any mynde to be good eyther this man meaneth nowe by his wordes to teache vs that poynt that hym selfe hath abiured and then lette vs not lerne the thynge of hym that he wolde in no wyse we shold or elles he meaneth to tâ—ache yt vs styll for al his abiuracion And then wherfore sholde we be so madde to byleue a false wreche y t wold make vs byleue now that that thynge were trewe whyche hym selfe hath openly coÌ„fessed and sworen to be false ¶ But then wyll happely this good man say that this abiuracyon is perylouse for iubardye of the relapse The parell of deth by relapse is not vppon euery abiuracyon But of trouth he that is abiured vppon such thynges proued as maketh hym not sleyghtly but very vehemently suspected yf he fall after into heresye putteth hym selfe in parell to fall into the fyre And very good reason yt is that yt be so And a man may some tyme be so suspecte of felony by reason of sore presumpcyons y t though no man saw hym do yt nor hym selfe neuer confesse yt but saye and swere to that he neuer hadde yt yet may he be founden gyltye of yt and theruppon haÌ„ged for yt and haue no wroÌ„ge at all ¶ And thus this prouysyon for purgacyon at the dyscrecyon of the ordynarye is not I truste so vnreasonable nor they so vnreasonable that made yt nor they so vnreasonable y t ratified it nor al they so vnresonable y t thys two or thre huÌ„dred yere haue accepted and allowed yt but that yt maye nowe stande by thys good maÌ„nys leue at this daye as well as yt hath standen all this whyle before But yet is there one thiÌ„g y t he taketh for a thing very sore For thaÌ„ is there sayth he a nother law that if he that is so proued suspect refuse to pourge hym self at the discrecyon of thordynary and be for hys conâ—umacy excommunycate that in that case yf he of an obdurate harte stande so accursed an whole yere he shal be punyshed as an heretyke And that ys as he sayth by the law Extra de hereticis capitulo Excommunicamus ¶ This prouisyon was made as I tolde you in the sayde generall counsayle And where he bringeth it forth as though yt were a very sore thyng and a cruell yt is in dede very fauorable For sauynge that I wyll not do as he doth go fynd fautes in their doynges that were so many so mych better and had so myche more wytte then I elles could I lay a lytle better cause to proue that prouysyon ouer fauorable then euer this good man shall fynde whyle he lyueth to proue that prouysyon to sore And surely he that beynge proued suspect
harme that neuer dyd the dede that were layde to his charge And of trouth this conclusyon is so clere that yt nedeth no profe at all And therfore though he wanne al that poynt yet hadde he loste the mater But let vs now a lytle se whether he wynne thys poynte or no. ¶ And bycause the effecte of all hys answere lyeth all waye in this that he sayeth all waye that the sample of the comen lawe that I laye is not lyke the thynge that I resemble yt vnto in the spyrytuall lawe I shall fyrste reherse you myn owne wordes in myne apologye and then shall I reherse you hys wordes here â—â—at when you haue herd bothe twâ—yne whether they be lyke or vnlyke ye â—aye the mâ—re surely iuge These were 〈…〉 aders mâ— wâ—rdes And 〈…〉 thynketh tâ—at he whych can not be proued gyltyâ—â—n heresye and yet vâ—eth suche manâ—r oâ— wayes that all hys honeste neyghbours wene he were one and therfore dare not swere that in theyr coÌ„science they thynke hym any other is well worthye me thynketh to do some penaunce for that maner of byhauour wherby he geueth all other folke occasyon to take hym for so noughtye And by the comeÌ„ law of this realme many tymes vppon suspycyon the iuges a warde write to enquyre of what fame and behauour the man ys in his countrey and hym self lyeth somtyme styll in pryson tyll the retourne and yf he be returned good that is to wyt yf he be in a maner purged then is he delyuered yet he payeth his fees ere he go And yf he be retourned noughte then vse the iuges to bynde hym for hys good aberynge and som tyme suertyes wyth hym to suche as theyr dyscrecyon will allowe And then to lye styll tyll he fynde theym is somtyme as myche penaunce to the tone as the spyrytuall iudge inâ—oyneth to the tother For the tone cometh to the barre as openly as the tother to the consystorye and somtyme hys feters waye a good pyece of a fagotte bysydes that they lye lenger on the tone mannys legges then the fagotte on the tothers sholdre And yet ys there no remedye but bothe these must be done both in the tone court and in the tother or ellys in stede of one harme whych to hym that deserueth yt not happeth seldome and as seldome I am sure in heresye as in thefte and myche more seldome to ye shall haue tenne tymes more harme happen dayly to folke as innoceÌ„t as they and of innocentes many made nocentes to the destruccyon of theym selfe and other to bothe in goodes bodye and soule ¶ To thys pyece lo good reader thys is this good mannys answere Then he goeth further for mayntenaunce of the sayde suyte Ex officio and resembleth it to arestyng for suspecyon of felonye and to the suertye of good aberynge and to indytementes wheruppon men be put to answere at the commen lawe And how farre these resemblances varye from the suyte Ex officio he in some place openeth yt hym selfe But yet for a more playne declaracyon therin I shall saye a lytle farther in that mater Fyrst as to the arresâ—ynge for suspycyon of felonye yt is in dede an olde lawe of thys realme that for suspycyon of felonye a man may be arrested so that he that doth arresâ—e hym vppon a reasonable cause doth suspecte hym but yt is a generall rule that he shall neuer be put to answere vpon that arreste but proclamacyon shal be made that yf any man wyll lay any thynge agaynst hym that is so suspected that it shal be herde yf none such coÌ„e he shal be delyuered without fine or aâ—y other punyshmeÌ„t with a good exhortacioÌ„ of the iudges that he shall take good hede howe he ordereth hym selfe in tyme to come And then mayster More lykeneth the penaunce of suche a man that hath ben in pryson vppon suspycyon of felonye and so delyuered by proclamacyon to the bearynge of a fagotte for heresye For he sayth that the one of them shal come as openly to the barre as the other to the consystory And that sometyme his fetters shall â—ey a good pece of the fagot besydes that they lye lenger on the one mannys legges then the fagotte on the other mannys shulder but he reherseth not howe they lye many tymes lenger in pryson for heresye then they do eyther for suspycyon of felonye or for good aberynge And ouer that I dare say that there are but few but that they hadde wel leuer abyde the payne to be thryse acquyted by proclamacyon and peradueÌ„ture ofter theÌ„ ones beare a fagot for heresy ¶ Howe goeth nowe good readers thys answere of thys good man vnto the purpose to proue the trouble of hym that ys arrested vppon suspycyon of felonye to be vnlyke to the trouble of hym that ys sued ex officio for heresye touchynge the poynte that I resemble theym for ¶ The point ye wote wel sor whyche I speke of tharrestyng for suspycyon of felonye is to shew that lyke wyse as yt may happen a man for heresye to fall in trouble sometyme though he were none heretike iÌ„ dedeâ— so may yt happen a man somtyme to be troubled vppon suspycyon of felâ—nye though he be no felon in dede and yet bothe the tone lawe necessarye and the tother to and neyther of bothe maye be forborne Hathe this good man proued vs the contrarye of this that you se well he hath not And then hathe he not perdye proued them vnlyke ¶ He weneth he sayth somewhat whan he telleth vs that vpon tharrestynge vppon suspycyon of felonye he shall not be put to answere tyll he be indighted What is hys trouble the lesse for that If he lye in pryson tyll the sessyon as he maye happe to do were it not more his ease to be putte to answere before and acquytte yf he be not fawty for of suche folke we speke than for lacke of puttynge to answere lye styll in pryson y â— lenger ¶ As for that that in conclusyon yf no man laye nought to his charge at the sessyons he shall be delyuered by proclamacions so shall he that is suspected of heresye to For yf there be nothynge founden agaynste hym he shall neyther be dreuen to abiuracyoÌ„ nor purgaâ—ioÌ„ but be deliuered quyte how so euer that eyther thyâ— man myssetake or wolde make other men myssetake the mater to the contrary ¶ And as to that that the tone shall pay no fyne no more shall the tother neyther ¶ Yf this man wyll peraduenture say syth that thordinary fyndeth the man not suspect in the ende why dyd he take and arreste hym for suspecte in the begynnynge Bycause that in the begynnyng the man semed vpon good consyderacyons suspecte and semed lykely to fle and vppon his examynacyon the mater full serched out the causes of suspycyon so well auoyded that thordynary declareth hym for dyscharged wythout any other purgacyon But yet hath it myshapped hym to haue some harme
the meane whyle and so hath it hym also that was arrested vppon suspycyon of felony that neuer was after indyghted but delyuered forth fre vpoÌ„ the proclamacyon ¶ I se no great dyfference bytwene these two men in all this mater yet saue that the tone lyeth at his owne fyndynge the tother at the bysshoppes coste ¶ For where as this man sayth that he whyche is delyuered by proclamacyon hath alwaye geuen hym by the iustycê a good lessoÌ„ at his departing yf the bysshoppe geue not the tother a good lesson at hys departynge to thaÌ„ is he somwhat to blame in dede but in â—ood fayth I here saye that he doth so to And therfore where is this dyfference yet I loke alwaye for that For as for the shame of open brynging forth is both one as I said sauynge that the sessyon hath comeÌ„ly mych more people present to gase vppon the tone than in the consystory loketh vppon the tother ¶ And where thys man sayth that they lye lenger in pryson for heresye than they do eyther for suspycyon of felonye or for good aberynge yf he speke of those whyche are in conclusyon founden in no more fawte concernynge heresye than those are that are deliuered by ê“clamacioÌ„ be fouÌ„deÌ„ at the sessyon concernynge felony I dare be bolde to tell hym nay And I am very sure the trouth wyll proue so to But now yf he speke of those that appere vppon th ende in suche fawte that by the law they be boundeÌ„ to abiure than is it good reason that they lye lenger in dede And so lye there as reasoÌ„ is sometyme some for felonye to repryed vpon causys froÌ„ one sessyon to another and somtyme kepte you se well all the whole yere and more And that somtyme such as are in conclusyon neuer indyghted neyther but after all that delyuered by proclamacyon and yet good causes in y e meane whyle why they were kepte so And therfore where as this man sayth that they be in worse case that bere a fagotte very trouth it ys somewhat and so is it reason they be For they be not fawtelesse but conuicted of the fawte And our dyspycyoÌ„s is of innocentes that happen by the lawe the tone lawe or the tother to take harme without theyr fawte For yf he wolde compare the fawty with the fawtye than must he coÌ„pare the tone berynge the faggotte with the tother at the very fyrste tyme borne vppe wyth the rope ¶ And therfore I dyd in that place not onely shewâ— that he that is innocent maye by arrestynge for felonye happe to haue as myche harme as he y t is innocent and arrested for heresye but that he maye happen to haue sometyme also as mych harme as he that for the fyrst tyme is founden fawty in heresye and playnely conuycted therof And surely saue for the ferther perell vppon hys ferther fawte so maye it happe in dede and yet as I sayed in my dyaloge the lawe muste nedes be kepte but yf you wyll by the chauÌ„ge haue fyue theuys for one And thus as for this pyece of arrestynge for suspycioÌ„ of felony the case hath he not proued vnlyke towchynge the purpose that I putte it for but for my parte very stronge And so hath thys good man in thys fyrst pyece of the thyrde point a very great fall ¶ Than cometh he nexte vnto another case that I spake of also that is to wyt arrestynge vppon good aberynge And where as in myne apologye that pyece is the thyrde y e pyece in hys answere he maketh the secoÌ„d and I se why well inough For syth hym selfe seeth that he answereth it so slenderly he wrappeth it vp in the myddes bycause it sholde be the lesse marked and wold ende with another pyece wherin hym selfe weneth thaâ— he sayth somwhat better ¶ Now as for this good aberynge to th ende y t ye may se the better how gayly this good man answereth it I shall fyrste reherse you the wordes of myne apology that he maketh this answere to ¶ After that I haue she weth there that y e iudges of the spyrytuall court be not so folysshe but that they had leuer not medle with any man saue onely vppon some suche open inquisycyon as are indyghtementes of felonye for auoydynge of obloquy sauyng that necessyte compelleth them to take thys way for feare that with sufferaunce of heresyes to go forth grow all myghte at length thorow goddes displeasure very farre grow to nought I say there farther thus folio .225 Necessyte somtyme causeth also both the temporall iuges and the kynges counsayle to put some folke to busynesse or dyshonestye somtyme wythout eyther iury or bryngynge of the accuser to the profe of the mater in the partyes presence For yf the iudge knowe by sure enformacyon that some one man is of such euyll demeanure amonge his neyghbours that they may not â—ere it and yet that the man is bysyde so vyolent and so iuberdouse that none of them dare be aknowen to speke of it wyll there no iudges vpon many secrete coÌ„playntes made vnto them without makynge the party preuye who tolde hym that tale bynde that busy troubelouse man to good aberynge I suppose yes and haue sene it so to and wronge wolde it be some tyme wyth good pore peasyble folke in the countrey but yf it were so done amonge And my selfe whan I was chauncellour vpon suche secrete enformacyon haue put some out of coÌ„myssyon and offyce of iustyce of the peace whyche els for mych money I wold not haue done yet yf I were in the tone rome styll and they in the tother agayne but yf they be mended wherof I neyther than sawe nor yeâ— here any lykelyhed I wold put them out agayne and neuer tell them who told me the tales y t made me so to do◠¶ Lo good readers here you se that in thys pyece I mene nothynge els but that where as this good man fyndeth a fawte that the spyrytual iudge sholde medle wyth any man for heresye without an open accusour complaynyng to hym or an open presentemeÌ„t in y e begynnyng I shew there that necessyte is the cause and forth wyth afterwarde I proue it whiche thys good man dyssembleth here and inuerteth here thordre for the nonys And I shew that necessite lest mych more harme sholde grow theron causeth the temporall iudges the kynges honorable counsayle to to putte some man to busynesse somtyme and so to dishonesty both without eyther indyghtemeÌ„t or open accusour or suffryng hym to make answere eyther and thus be they fayne to do but yf they shold suffre many great harmes to growe Now marke well I requyre you how substancyally thys good man answereth thys These are hys wyse wordes so And then as to the arrestynge for good abearynge trouth it is that a man by commaundement of the iustyces may so be arrestyd but he shall neuer be put to answere vppon that arrest but onely bounde and suretyes with hym of
the felde But nowe that you may se what strength he hath in that warde I shall fyrste brynge you forth that warde agaynst whyche yt fyghteth In myne apologye fo cc.xxii these are mye wordes lo. And bycause thys pacyfyer taketh yt for so sore a thynge in the spyrytuall lawe that a man shall be called ex officio for heresy where he shal not know his accuser yf we sholde chaunge the spyrytuall lawe for that cause theÌ„ hadde we nede to chaunge the temporall to in some suche poyntes as chaunge yt when ye wyll and ye shal chaunge yt into the worse for aughte that I can se but yf it be better to haue mo theuys then fewer For now yf a man be endyghted at a sessyons and none euydens geuen openly at the barre as many be and many maye well be For thendytours may haue euydeÌ„ce gyuen them a ê‘te â— or haue herde of the mater ere they came there and of whome be they not bounden to tell but be rather boundeÌ„ to kepe yt close for they be sworen to kepe the kynges counsayle and theyr owne shall then the partye that is endyghted be put vnto no besynesse aboute his acquytayle And who shall tell hym there the names of his accuser to entytle hym to his wryte of coÌ„spyracye This pacyfyer wyll peraduenture saye that the same twelue men that are hys endyghtours are his accusers therfore he may know them But what helpeth that his vndeserued vexacyon yf he were fauteless For ameÌ„des the law geueth him none agaynst any of them nor it were not well done he sholde but may wheÌ„ he is after by other .xii. acquyte go gette hym home and be mery that he hath had so fayre a day as a man getteth hym to the fyre and shaketh his hatte after a shoure of rayne And nowe as yt often happeth that a man cometh into a shoure by his own ouersyght though somtyme of chauÌ„s and of aduenture so surely though somtyme yt happe that a man be accused or endyghted of malyce or oâ— some lykelyhed whyche happed hym of chaunce and not his faute therin yet happeth yt in comparyson very selde but that the partye by some demeanure of hym selfe gyueth occasyoÌ„ that folke haue hym so suspected ¶ In this pyece my purpose is good reders as you se to shewe that lyke wise as a man shall in the suyt ex officio for heresye not knowe his accuser so may yt also happen many tymes that no more he shall neyther when he is at the comen sawe indyghted of felonye And I shewe also therin as you se that though yt maye tometyme happe eyther of malyce or chauÌ„ce yet yt seldome happeth for all that that the partye so falleth in trouble without some defaute of hym selfe and that the commen generall lawe maye not for such seldome specyall happes be forborne To this pyece lo this good man answereth me thus And then mayster More sayth yet farther that vppon indytementes at sessyons the indyters vse not to shewe the names of theym that gaue them informacyon And he sayeth farther that they may not shewe theyr names For they may not dysclose the kynges counsayle nor theyr owne But as I take yt that prohybycyon of openynge of the counsayle in this case is onely to be vnderstande of theyr own coâ—â—sayle amonge them selfe after that they be sworne but for openynge of the names of theym that gaue them informacyon before they were sworn I know no prohibicyon And yf they wyl not shew theyr names they be not bounden to do yt for they be not bounde to helpe the partye to his wryt of coÌ„spyracy but as they lyste to do in conscyence ¶ Nowe good readers all this pretendyd defence is nothynge ellys in effecte but a fayre confessyon that yt is in dede trew the thyng y t I sayd my selfe that he whych is endyghted of felony maye be as for any aduâ—tage that he can take therby as ignoraunt somtyme who be his accusers as he shall in the suyte ex officio And therby may happen somtyme that he whyche is fautelesse shall not be all saued harmelesse and when he hathe hadde his harme shal be remedylesse And yet for all that the lawe not vnreasonable nor for auoydynge of myche more harme may not be forborne And therfore as for my purpose euen at that poynte myghte I haue left and neded to go no farther And then as you se this good man had ben quyte answerelesse ¶ But yet went I farther where me neded not and that this good man sayth that I dyd of necessyte wherof for this mater I hadde of trouth no nede And yet wolde I not nowe but I so hadde done in dede For I haue therby the better broughte to lyghte what lacke thys good man hath of any suffycyent answere For these are there lo good readers therin my farther wordes Nowe yf thys pacyfyer saye that yet here ys at the leste wyse in a temporall inge an open cause apperyng whereuppon men maye se that the iudge calleth hym not but vppon a mater broughte vnto hym where as the spyrytuall iudge maye call a man vppon his owne pleasure yf he bere the partye dyspleasure thys is very well sayde as for the temporall iudge But what sayth he now for the temporall .xii. men For ye wote well they maye do the same yf they were so dysposed and then hadde I as leue the iudge myght do it as they For in good faith I neuer saw y e day yet but that I durste as well trust the trouth of one iudge as of two iuryes But the iudges be so wyse men that for the auoydynge of obloquye they wyl not be put in the truste And I dare saye the ordynaryes be not so folyshe neyther but that they wolde as fayne auoyde yt to yf they myghte sauynge that very necessyte leste all sholde fall to noughte compelleth theym to take this waye ¶ Here you se that I meane in this wordes that though the pacyfyer wolde tell me that the temporall iudge hath by suche endyghtement at the leste wyse an open cause apperynge wheruppon a man maye se that the iudge calleth hym not of hys owne mynde but vppon a mater broughte vnto hym I wolde them graunte hym that thys is in dede a good ease to the temporall iudge to kepe hym oute of obloquye And the spyrytuall iuges be not so vnwyse but that they wold be glad of such a nother pauyce sauynge that they be bounden to take the tother waye and suffre them self euyl peples obloquye for auoydyng of the harme y t ellys wold folow by the decay of Cristes catholyke faith Whyche thynge I there proue well to as you shall after se. This as I saye wolde I haue graunted allway thys good man But then I wold allwaye therwythall haue tolde hym to that yet all that tale of hys hadde nothyge touched the poynte but that alwaye for all this tale the man that was indyghted yf the mater
were in dede vntrew was neuer the nerer the knowledge who were his accusers to gete any amendes therby no more then he that is called of offyce for heresye byfore a spyrytuall iudge And here nowe what he sayth to this and whyther we be by his answere for the poynt y t was meÌ„t by me any one ynch yet the nerer Lo good readers this is hys proper answere And theÌ„ bycause he caÌ„ none otherwise do but coÌ„fesse a great dynersyte betwyxte them that be put to answere ex officio and them that be putte to answere before the kynges iustyces vppon indytementes at the common lawe for there the iudges haue suffycyent and apparant mater to put theym to answere vppon and in the other there is none but that the spyrytuall iudge vppon a dyspleasure may do yt ex officio yf he wyll Therfore he goeth yet farther and sayeth that the .xii. men maye yet do the same and make a man to be called that is not gyltye yf they were so dysposed And trouth yt is they may indyte a man that is absent and that is also not gyltye and be vntrewe yf they wyll but yet in suche case the .xii. men be knowen that do yt and be also compelled to be vppon the inquyrye for they maye not be vppon it but they be therto assygned and also the partye vppon they re verdyte shall not be put to answere before theym as yt is vpon the suyte Ex officio but before the kynges iudges before whome the indytemeÌ„t is no atteynder to the partie but that he maye be founde not gyltye not wythstandynge that indytement And though mayster More saye that he neuer saw the daye yet but that he dursie as well truste the treuth of one iudge as of two iuryes I thynke the iudges wyll can hym but lytle thanke fâ—r that preyse for surely inryes must nedely be beleued and trusted And therfore it is not the maner of the iudges to laye vntrouth vppon a iurye ne yet to commende theym that do yt but yt be proued afort them oâ—â—ecorde after the order of the lawe ¶ Here you se good readers y t touchynge the poynte that we spake of all thys tale helpeth nothynge but goeth all aboute a nother mater to proue a nother dyfference betwene y e suyte of offyce and indyghtementes as though I had sayd there were no difference betwene theÌ„ at all But I was neuer yet so madde to be of that mynde For theÌ„ must I say they were both one And then were euery endytement a suyte of offyce euery suit of offyce an indyghtement yf there were no dyuersytees betwene them at all ¶ And therfore yf his dyuersyte shall serue aughte for the purpose he muste make yt appere that the suyte of offyce bycause of that dyfference and bycause yt is not lyke indyghtementes in that poynte is therfore in heresye eyther very clerely nought or ellys that at the lest wyse yt were somwhat better that they sholde neuer put any man to answere in heresye but eyther vppon open accusacyon or psentement had byfore For els if he wene to wynne this poynt of me with shewynge forth a dyfference if his differeÌ„ce proue me no such thyng as I tel you he may for the mater as wel brynge vs forth any verse dyfference at aduenture that he lerned at grammer scole ¶ Now wheÌ„ he hath layed al his dyuersyties on an hepe wold theruppon coÌ„clude y t bycause of those diueâ—syties y e suyte of officio were nought and vnresonable I say y t foloweth nothing For it proueth yet no farther at the farthest but y t the order of the comen law were better not y t the tother were nought For it myght well be for al that y t the coÌ„men law might be good ynough though they y t secretly or openly come now enforme the queste came either secretly or openly and lykewise enformed the court ¶ And now saw I well that to this poynte was there none answere for this good man agayne but to tell me y t in such thingê as they now trust the questes it were parell in stede of â—uryes so myche to truste the courte by cause the iuges myght then fayn mater agaynste men and say they were secretely enformed To this syth I saw what truste the realme must nedes put in y e iudges handes so farre aboue the wheyghte of the fyrste endyghtement that serueth for nothynge but for an informacyon and seynge also what maner of men they be that be chosen to be iudges so that there is nothynge of so great weyght but that yt well may be put in they re handes I rekened theym of suche trouth that saue for euyll folkes obloquye to them selfe warde elles to the people there sholde come none harme though the truste that we put in theÌ„dytours were in stede of them put in the iudge hym selfe This I there sayde lo and this I thynke in dede For as I sayde there I neuâ—r saw yet the day but y t I durst as wel truste the trouthe of one iudge as I durst truste the trouth of two iuryes What hath this good man answered me nowe to this To all this gere here is lo his worsyppefull answere I thynke the iudges wyll can hym but lytle thankâ— for that prayse For surely iuryes must nedes be beleued and trusted And therfore yt ys not the maner of the iudges to lay vntrouth to a iurye ne yet to commende them that do yt But yt be proued afore them of recorde after the order of the lawe ¶ This answere of trouthe is not worthe a straw For as for y t he sayth the iudges wyll for that prayse can me lytle thanke that word were somwhat yf I hadde sayde it for theyr thanke But I sayd it in good sayth not for theyr thanke at al but bycause yt is very trouth y t I neuer saw the day yet in dede nor neuer I truste in god I shall but that I may wel and so wyll I do in dede â—rust the trouth of one iudge as well as the trouth of two iuryes I wolde here wytte of this good man what disprayse is this to any iury what vntrewth is there here layed vnto them or to any one man of them I wyll vse one worde now this ones whych this good man vseth often For now wyll I saye a lytle farther and that is this though this man maye happe to thynke the sayenge straunge I wyll not let to beleue the trouth of some one man of whose trouth I make my selfe sure doute nothyng at al euen as wel as the trouthe of a great many at ones though they be all suche as I beleue euery one of theym as well as I beleue hym selfe And I also byleue some one iuge alone not in connynge but in trouthe as well as I wyll beleue both hym selfe all his felowes to For some one man may be suche that if he shold tel me a
tale as of his own ê‘fyt knowlege I wold so litle doute yt to be trew y t I could beleue yt no better though all the town told yt with hym Lo what a great vntrouth I lay here to the iuryes ¶ And this I say for my selfe And now wyll I with this good mannys leue saye yet a lytle farther and I wene I shaâ—l not say so alone I suppose veryly that there be very few but so that it myghte make a fynall ende in theyr mater excepte happely some such as trust more in the fauour of the countrey then in the trouthe of theyr cause they wold rather be content to put yt whole into the iudges handes then trouble the countrey wyth callynge vppe of the iuryes whose trouth yet many tymes deceyueth them that in an euyl cause haue very great truste vnto theym ¶ And yet in all this saye not I that the commen order and longe conâ—ytynued law of this realme to trye the maters by iuryes in felony or treason neuer to ê“cede but vpon endyghtementes is not good nor that the coÌ„trarye waye were better Mary two thynges I saye that in treason and felonye this ordynarye lawe of endyghtemeÌ„tes is many tymes fayn to be holpen forth by a nother meane myche lyke in many thynges to the suyte ex officio and that ys by dylygent polytyque serche and examynacyons bysyde both by the kynges honorable couÌ„sayle the iuges iustyces of peace euery man for theyr ê‘te in euery ê‘te of the realm els wold there many such mischiefê passe by by indightemâ—t neuer wold be fouÌ„deÌ„ And some great and clerely proued felonyes byfore dyuerse and ryghte worshypfull of the kinges counsayl haue I wyste ere thys that neuer coulde be goten to be founden by endyghtement in they re countreys for all that How be yt suche examynacyons hathe caused yet many myscheuouse people to be brought to they re punyshement and haue put also many suche other vnthryftes in fere made them refrayn fro theuyng and drawe them selfe to thryfte or elies not wytstandynge that there are yet theuys ynough there wold be wythout doute many mo ¶ The tother thynge that I wyll say is this that all these dyfferences dyuersyties that this good man putteth here betwene indyghtementes the suyte ex officio proueth nothing that the suyte ex officio is not good but onely at the very vttermost that the ordre not to procede wythoute an open presentement were better For 〈◊〉 sayd before though this lawe by endyghtemeÌ„tê be better in felony now yet were not the tother waye nought yf the lawe were so that the iudges myght procede and put feloÌ„s to answere without endyghtementê as in treason is vsed in thys realme by the lawe marshall vppon warre rered as we sawe by experyence in captayne Quintyn captayn Genyn Corbet and â—elke And yet is that lawe not euyll thoughe that oure owne comen law be better and that though we truste the iuryes neuer so well yet myght we truste the iudges as well And this maye I saye me thynketh without any dysprayse or fawte fyndynge in the iuryes at all For let him assygne me two iuryes of very well knowen good men than yf he wyll aske me what fawte fynd you syr in these men I wyll answer hym Mary syr no fawte at all I. I take them all for good men trewe and thynke they wyll not saye but treuth nor I neuer sayd nor thought other wyse But thaÌ„ wold I assygne hym by name one of oure iudges agayne and say now syr that I truste the trouth of your two iuryes well what fawte is that that you fynde in thys iudges trouth that maketh you to chekke me so bycause I wyll trust hâ—m no wurse than I wyll truste them For that is ye wote well al that euer I sayde that I wolde trust the iudge as well and not that I wolde truste hym better And yet yf I had sayd I wolde of the bothe trusâ—e the iudge better I hadde not by that word neyther dyspraysed the trouth of iuryes For he that sayth he wyll better bysene .xxiiii. than .xii dysprayseth not the trouth of the petit iuries but byleueth theym well also saue suche as be founden false And thus I haue shewed you that I may well say the wordes that I sayd without any fyndynge of any fawte in any iuryes And it appâ—reth also metely well that hym selfe can not well say the contrary without some maner of dystrust in theyr trouth And yet syth theyr wurshyppys be so well knowe that this good mannys dystruste can not apayre it they wyll I dare saye forgeue hym How be it sith the iudges wold as this man sayth and as I dare also saye they wolde be sore dyscontent wyth me yf I dystrusted the â—routh of the iuryes the iuryes may now no lesse do agayne of courtesye than for his wurse opinion of the iudgê trouth somewhat be angry wytâ— hym ¶ Nor herin se I none other shyfte for this good man but for the mayntenaunce of hys mater to saye that in the comen law the law wold be good inough in felonye though the truste were put in the iudges to putte traytours and felons to answere wythout indyghtement but in heresye it coulde not be good before an ordynarye and wolde saye for hys cause a dyuersyte bytwene the tone iudge the tother and saye that oure iudges be good men and worshypful euer 〈◊〉 ben and euer shall and that the ordynaryes be and euer haue bene shal be very false nought Other shyfte hath this man none that I se than euyn to saye thus And veryly his boke of diuisyon saue that it saith nothynge to the prayse of temporall iudges that I now remember yet to the dysprayse of the spyrytuall for those algates that be now saith euyn in effecte as mych ye and rather yet wurse to saue that y e colour of some say saueth hym from sayenge it hym selfe ¶ But now yf he defend hym selfe with that fasshyon agayne what the iuryes wyll say that can I not tell for the panellys be not yet called But as for oure iudges I knowe theyr wysedoms and theyr wurshyppys such that I am very sure in his so sayenge and his so lyenge vppon the spyrituall iudges they wolde can hym no thanke at all ¶ And veryly that the spyrytual ordinaryes be not at these dayes lykely to be such y e temporall iudges beyng so good as they be there is amonge many other one lykelyhed this that he hath chosen the tone that hath chosen the tother the kynges gracyouse hyghnesse hym selfe whiche hauyng on both sydes very good to chose of hath I dare say ben as cyrcumspecte in chosynge of thordynaryes as of y e iudges And yet leste in theyr absence the offycers of theyr owne choyse might happe to misseordre y e maters his grace kepeth not two bysshoppes of all the realm out of theyr diocises nor
chapyter of his is clerely wrested awry For as though he had all proued whâ—re all is dysproued he fynysheth hys chapyter thus And thus it appereth that maysâ—er More can neyther proue the suyte Ex. officio to be lyke to the arrestynâ—e of men for suspycyon of felonye for good aberynge to puttynge of men to answere vpon indytemeÌ„tes ne yet to them that may be accused by .xii. men and knowe not of it and thaâ— for the causes before remembred Wherfore it semeth that though it were clerely putte awaye the stretes shulde not swarme full of heretykes neuer a whyt ¶ This good man sayth here I can not proue any of al these thyngeê like But euery man may wel se that lyst to loke backe and rede it that there is not any one piece of all these that he speketh of but I haue very playnely proued it very lyke for y e purpose entent that I resemble it for And this shall euery man clerely se that wyll aduise pyece by pyece ¶ And therfore whyle vpon dyfferences dyuersytees that he putteth bytwen them such as let them not to be lyke in the thyng that I lyken theÌ„ for he bosteth in conclusyon y t I can not proue them lyke I shall shewe you what thyng now this bost of his is lyke ¶ If it had come in this good maÌ„nes hed to diuise a law and wryte a boke therfore to kyll vp all the band dogges thorow out all y e realmâ— wherin his tyme as vnwysely as it were bestowâ—d had not yet ben so ill spent as it hath ben in this and than wold lay for the cause y e bandogges do spende vitayle wyll somtyme byte folke to yf I wolde than wryte agaynsâ—e his wyse boke and say that he myght by that reason kyll vp houndeâ— and grayhouÌ„des all for they must eate to and wyll somtyme byte chyldren to but lykewyse yet as they maye not yet for all that be forborne bothe for the pleasure that they do and also for that they helpe to take vs some suche bestes of venory as men eate and hunte and kyll also suche other bestes and vermyn as ellys wolde destroye mych vytayle so the band-dogges may not be forborne neither for they both defende husband mennes howses fro theues helpe folke home with theyr bestes to somtyme such as wold not ellys come home now myghte this good man by this reason y t he vseth here write agayne defend his polytike deuice agaynst bandoggê therin answer me thus Fyrst y t for defence of folkes houses there shal nede no bandogges at all for men may make theyr seruauntes watche or make fast all theyr dorys and whan theâ—es wolde breke in defende theyr howses them selfe And as for suche bestes as wold not come home yf they be not ouer heuy they may bere them home and those that be to heuy to be borne home taye ropes to there taylys and drawe theym home And than myght he saye yet a lytell ferther and that is this that he merueiled mych y t I could for shame and fere of myne own conscyence resemble lyken together gentle houÌ„des or goodly greyhouÌ„des to such il fauored mastâ—ffes And thaÌ„ to proue them very farre vnlyke put his dyfferencê his dyuersitees and saye a mastyffâ— hath you wote well a great iolte hed a great mosel a thycke boystuouse body where as a greyhouÌ„d hath a ê“perhed with a goodly smal long snowt fayre long sleÌ„der sydê the houÌ„dê yet mych lesse lyke ¶ And theruppon myght he there coÌ„clude as he nowe concludeth here and saye thus ¶ And thus it appereth that maister More can neyther proue y e mastyfes to be lyke to y e greyhouÌ„des nor to the tother gentle houndes neyther and that for the causes before remeÌ„bred wherfore yt semeth that though all bandogges and mastiffes were clerely putte awaye yet mennys houses sholde be defended well inough and they re bestes broughte home well ynough to so they sholde so ¶ Now yf he ryally tryumphed vppoÌ„ this and thought he had auoyded me well I could no farâ—her go therin in good fayth but let him take that glorye to hym And surely wyth any wyse man that readeth ouer here in this chapyter both hys wordes and myne and one after a nother consydereth wherfore I resemble theym together shall fynde I dare boldely warraunt that wyth his dyfferencê and hys dyuersytees he wynneth lyke worshyppe in thys ¶ But now to turne agayn as I ê“mysed to the fyrste poynte that ys to wyt his deuise of open accusers coÌ„syder well this good chrysten reader that where as this good man in his boke of diuysyon where he wold haue the suit ex officio left of he theÌ„ reserued vs yet both open accusacyons and presentementes to put heretyques to answere vpon But nowe in this .xv. chapiter of his in his boke of Salem Bizance for fauour towarde the catholyque fayth he dyuyseth no more agaynst heretyques but open accusers alone and sayeth that open accusers shall suffycieÌ„tly serue the mater And vnto y t here y t I say and that euery man seeth that no maÌ„ wyll in heresy make hym self a ê‘tye by way of opeÌ„ accusyng therto saith thys good man nothynge ¶ He seeth perdy very well that in many thynges forboden by sondry statutes for the comen weale as agaynste the great excesse of apparell and some such other thynges y e law dothe inuyte and hyre euery man to thaccusynge of the brekers of y e same by geuynge theym the tone halfe of the forfaytoure And yet for all that as longe as many lawes as sore as haue ben made agaynste suche excesse of apparayle and as myche as some men myght haue wonne by the suyt yet howe fewe folke haue ben founden that haue taken those accyoÌ„s and therby accused those offenders the kynges courtes can declare and the lytle amendement may shew ¶ Ryottes be open thynges and enquyrable with paynes also set vpoÌ„ y e concelours yet many great ryottes go by vnfounde y e coÌ„celours neuer spokeÌ„ of a statut was there fayn to be made y t it myght be pursued punished by the kingê couÌ„sayle without presentement and that euen by suyte in maner ex officio to For though the partyes that made the ryot and the partye vppon whome yt was made were so well agreed agayne that neyther nother wolde by they re wylles haue the mater moued or any more spoken of it yet may the kyngê counsayle vpon secrete informacion cause the kynges atturney to make a byll of the ryot and put the partyes to answere and sende for what wytnesses they wyll ¶ Nowe thys man wyll not be so madde I trowe to lay me for a defference that in the suyte ex officio there is none accuser and that here the kynges atturney is For as I haue sayde byfore yf the spyrytuall courte sholde assygne in lyke wyse an offycer of they re owne
they confesse ones ye and yet theyr one ye more trewe vppon theyr bare worde then they re twyse naye vppon a solempne o the and yet confesse they not so symplye but that it is commenly holpen wyth some suche cyrcumstaunces as make the mater more clere ¶ Nowe as to those thyngê that I wrote in my dialoge coÌ„cernyng great crymynouse wytnesses to be taken in great criminall causes he answereth wyth no worde at all How be yt to say the trouth he the lesse neded For he geueth ouer here al that faute that he founde in the chapyter In fidei fauorem as a thyngeâ— wherin hym self seeth now that he was ouersene than and therfore he setteth that here passe by as though he hadde neuer spoken therof and stycketh onely vppon y t one case of hym y t is ones forsworen ¶ But now let vs se what he sayth here coÌ„cernynge this selfe same case Fyrst he saith y t y e lawes though they must deuyse suche waysas euyll persons maye be punyshed yet the makers of the lawes must as mych as in them is prouyde that innocentes shal be saued harmelesse This is very trew as myche as in them is the tother poynt beynge prouyded for to that offendours maye be punyshed But then say I y t yt is not in all the wittes of the world for punyshemeÌ„t of myscheuouse wreches to dyuyse a sawe in suche wyse that men maye be sure that none innocent can take harme therby And then yf he graunt me this whyche whyther he graunt or no yet very trew yt is then say I that his onely reason agaynst the suit ex officio and agaynst this lawe to that is to wytte that innocentes maye take harme therby if such a reason y t yf it were folowed iÌ„ euery law wher by mysseguyded folke are punyssed there shold no law stand for theyr punysheneÌ„t at al but lest it myght misse happe that some innocent myght take harme we sholde lette all myscheuouse folke alone therby suffre many mo good innoceÌ„t men take harme ¶ But then goeth this good maÌ„ ferther sayth y t the punishement of an offender must be by a dew a reasonable order And y â— is very trew also therfore we shal agre well in that But than goth he ferther and sayth I caÌ„ not se what dew or resonable order of tryal it is that he y â— vpoÌ„ his oth hath fyrst clered hym self hâ—s neyghbour of heresyes sholbe after contrarye to his fyrste othe be receyued agayne as a wytnesse to condemne hym that he clerâ—d byfore and that in the same courte and in the same mater ¶ Though this good man can not se yt other men can se yt and haue sene it dayly do se it to wel ynough I haue sene suche thynges as thys is my selfe proued I can not tell howe often that in the excuse of a thefe some haue taken an othe that the felon was with hym in hys owne house at suche tyme as the felonye sholde be done in a nother place And a man wolde haue wente he hadde ben credyble and sayd trouth And yet afterwarde hathe hym selfe confessed that the feson and hym selfe also were at the robberye bothe twayne and hys bare worde then more trewe then byfore was hys solempne othe And euery man that hathe medeled myche wyth suche examynacyons hath a sure experyence that this ys a commen fashyon of murderers and theuys and such as are theuys receyuours of whome at the fyrste face some seme honest men are so some tyme reputed and come forth for declaracyon of them that are suspected and in trouble and depose for them and yet after vppon some other occasyon in examynynge of the mater begynne to be suspected theym selfe and afterwarde confesse yt to bothe of them selfe and theym whom they came to clere by theyr periury before And I am very sure there be not a fewe that haue herd suche euydence geuen in causes of felony dyuerse tymes to the iurye ¶ But hereuppon bycause I spake in myne apologye of suche witnesses in felonye thys good man maketh here adâ—ute what maner wytnesses I mene whyther I mene y e .xii. men that are the iury or other wytnessys that are brought into the court for to enforme theÌ„ And thaÌ„ fyrst if I mene the .xii. men than he answereth me certayn thynges to shew that he can skyll of the law But veryly as for me I shal put hym out of that dowt that I ment not them For I neuer toke the .xii. men for wytnessys in my lyfe For why shold I call them witnesses whose verdycte the iudge taketh for a sure sentence concernynge the facte without any examynacyon of the cyrcumstaunces wherby they know or be ledde to byleue theyr verdicte to be trew ¶ And also wherfore shold I mene to call them wytnesses whome I se desyre wytnesses at the barre to enforme them in the mater as wytnessys enforme a iudge He myghte therfore haue spared hys labour in y e pyece well inough For I neyther ment tht iurye nor neuer toke theym for wytnesse ¶ If he wyll aske me what they be than I saye they be the iury And yf he wyll wyt ferthermore what persoÌ„ they represent of those y t are vÌ„suall in other courtes wherin there be no iuryes vsed than can I metely wel tell hym to yf the tale were as necessary as it wolde be longe ¶ But than cometh he to the tother parte and sayth And yf mayster More by that terme witnesse mene suche wytnesse as be somtyme brought into the kynges courtes to geue euydencys to an â—nqueâ—t than to that wytnesse no suche wytnesse as the wytnesse bene in the spyrytuall courte that shall acquyâ—e or condempne the partyes for of those wytnesse so brought into the kynges court to geue euydence to an â—nqueste at the comon lawe no mencyon shall be made in the recordes ne the iury be not bound alway to folow tho wytnesse For yf the iury of theyr owne knowlege or otherwyse know the trouth agaynsâ—e the sayenge of suche wytnesse they be bouâ—den to fynde accordynge to the trouth and let tho wytnes go And yet yf it haâ—ned that such collaterall wytnes fyrst testyfyed vpon theyr othe that the partye were not gylty and after it were informed the iudges that they reuoked theyr fyrst sayeng and wold saye that the partye were gylty I can not thynke that the iudges wolde any more calle them to here theyr sayenge therin And though they wolde yet as I sayd before it were farre vnlyke to thys case For theyr sayenge there is but as an euydence whiche the iury sholde not be bounde to byleue but as y â— truth is I can not se therfore how mayster More can proue his sayenge that suche wytnesses that is to say suche as be periured in â—he same court shulde be afterward receyued as wytnes in any of the kynges courtes ¶ Now good readers euer more remember this that
swereth contrary wyse to theyr bothe parell harme therfore in y â— case reason bereth y e law y t in such heyghnous crimes his secuÌ„d oth shold be receyued ¶ Here haue I shewed you a reason whych semeth me sufficient that bothe in heresye and felony the iudges sholde be content not withstandyng the fyrste othe in some case to suffer hym swere the contrary ¶ But now for the teÌ„poral courtes let vs put some case for a sample to se whyther y e iudges wolde yf y e case happed so here y e witnes again or not ¶ I wyl not put the case in treason wherin thâ—re wolde I wene be no dowte but that yf after his euydence gyuen vppon his othe in clerynge there the prysoner he happed euyn sodaynly there at the barre to repent hym selfe say that he was hyred to be forsworen that he was forsworen in dede than wolde tell another tale far coÌ„trary to y e fyrst ere euer he went fro the barre wold his tale not be herd trow you yes and the iury so desyrynge as peraduenture they wold the iudges wolde swere hym to I suppose and very good reason wolde bere it that they sholde ¶ But as I say let treason go and come but euyn vnto felonye If two or thre wytnessys wold at the barre excuse vppon theyr othes some one man of felony and afterward whan they were stepped fro the barre happed to be herde rowne and reioyce to gether that they had geuyn good euidence for acquytayle of theyr felow with whom them selfe had ben at the same robbery if they were sodaynly brought agayn to the iudges the iury not yet departed fro the barre and beynge seuerally questyoned in that sodayne abashement seynge y t god had so vttred theyr falshed bygan to haue remorce and came forth wyth y e trouth and agreed in the cyrcumstauÌ„ces and told all one tale confessynge both the prysoner them selfe gylty and wold be conteÌ„t to swere that this tale were trew conâ—rary to the othe y t they sware there byfore wolde not the iudges trowe you geue them the herynge yes yes I dowte not and the iury to ¶ And thus you se clerely good readers y t in this poynt if this man had wysely wrought he sholde haue geuen it ouer ¶ And now albe it y t here I myght ende this chapyter and haue no nede at all to go any ferther yet to the ferther openyng how lytell holde there is in the causes that he layeth of dyssymilitude vnlykenes bytwene the wytnessys brought into a spirituall court the wytnesses brought in to y e temporal for informacyoÌ„ of the iury I meruayle mych yf hym self know not that lyke as the iury may yf they se cause why way the wytnesses at lyght and quyte the prysoner for all the wytnesses wordes so may the ordynary do to For in his estymacyon the power lyeth to way and consider the qualytees of the wytnesses and all suche other cyrcuÌ„stauÌ„ces as may mynysshe or encreace theyr credence ¶ Ye and vnto the tother syde the wytnessys are not in the temporall courtes wayed and estemed so lyght but that the iury shall yf they byleue them not be somtyme dreuyn to yeld a good rekenynge why For though the wordes of the wytnestes be not entred in the recorde yet in attaynt they shall agayne be geuen in euydence agaynst the petyt iury and testyfye by the court and by the othes of them y t before herde them depose ¶ And thanne yf it appere vnto the graund iury in theyr conscyence that the petyt iury wylfully of some corrupte mynde regarded not the wytnessys and therfore in the geuyng of theyr verdycte passed agaynste theyr owne conscyence euery man well woteth that they shal be attaynted ¶ And necessyte hath also dreuen the kingê grace his couÌ„sayle for y e sure punyshmeÌ„t of felons to prouide y t yf the iury lykewyse regard the wytnessys so sleyghtly y t the iudges thynke they quyte the felon agaynste theyr own coÌ„scyence they bynde theÌ„ sometyme to appere before the kyngê couÌ„sayle And there haue there dyuerse iuryes bene proued so to haue myssevsed them self therin that they haue ben punysshed therfore ¶ Now wyll I good readers come vnto that piece which as a thyng all redy coÌ„futed of it self vnworthy to be touched I wold haue passed ouer not ones vowchsafed to write one word therin sauyng y t I se him to haue takeÌ„ such labour therabout y t he semeth to wene y t he hath defended it well whiche whither he haue well defended or not your selfe shal good readers iudge These were his wordes in his boke of diuision Thys is a daungerous law and more lyke to causâ— vntrew and vnlawful men to condempne innocenteâ— then to condempne offenders And it helpeth lytell that yf there be tokens that it is not done of hatered nor for corrupcyon of money that it shold be taken for somtyme a wolfe may shew hym selfe in the apparell of a lambe And yf the iudge be parâ—yall such tokens maye be soneâ— accepted then trewly shewed ¶ To thys pyece these were my wordes in myne apology folio 229. Syth euyll folke vse not to make good folke of theyr counsayle in doynge of theyr euyll dedes those that are done sholde passe vnpunyshed mo lyke be commytted a fresshe but yf they were receyued for recordes to theyr condempnynge that were of theyr counsayle and parteners to the doynge whyâ—he kynde of folke wyll not lette to swere twyse naye before they confesse ones ye and yet theyr one ye more trewe vppon theyr bare worde than theyr twyse naye vppon a solempne o th and yet confesse they not so symply but that it is comenly holpen with some suche cyrcuÌ„stauÌ„ces as make the mater more clere Nowe se you well that as hym selfe sheweth the lawe prouydeth well agaynste all lyght receyuynge of such confessyon And yet thys pacyfyer sayth that all that helpeth lytle bycause the iudge may be parcyall and the wytnesse maye be a wolfe shewynge hym selfe apparelled in the apparell of a lambe whych apperynge in apparell pore men that can not apparel theyr speche with apparell of retoryke vse comenly to cal a woulfe in a lambes skynne But what order may serue agaynst suche obieccyons what place is there in this world spyrituall or temporal of whyche the iudge maye not haue some saye that he is or at the lest wise as he sayth here maye be parcyall And therfore not onely such wytnesse shold be by this reason of his reiected in heresye treason murder or felony but also by his other reson of a woulf in a lambes skynne all maner of wytnes in euery mater For i euery mater may it happeÌ„ y â— he y â— semeth a lambe may be in dede a wolf and be nought where he semeth good swere false where he semeth to say trew And therfore this patche of this pacifyer coÌ„cernynge witnesse euery wyse man may
experyence that whyle there hathe in long whyle but in two dyoceses very fewe bene punyshed for heresye the slaunder that he soweth toucheth some very few no lesse theÌ„ though he wrote in theyr names How caÌ„ he therfore for very shame saye that yt is no dyffamacyon Weneth he the reders of his worke were all such folys that he myght auoyde his playne open dede wyth his bare bolde worde where he sayth yt appereth euydentely nay where euery wyse man that readeth yt seeth well hym selfe that yt well appereth euydently yes ¶ Nowe goeth he farther wyth a nother pyece and sayth Nor yet my wordes proue not that I wolde haue al spyrytuall iudges chaunged For the spyrytuall iudges that be nowe maye be iudges styll and haue al the propertyes before rehersed as well as other for any thyng that I haue sayd And yet mayster More taketh yt otherwyâ—e and sayeth I wolde haue such iudges as haue no spyce of any of the sayd poyntes And he sayth that tyll suche iudges may be founde heretykes may make mery for a lytle season whyâ—e men walke aboute and seche for such iudges which he weneth wyll not be done in a wekes worke ¶ Here he leueth oute agayne the place of myne that he toucheth For when that is ones redde all hys gay tale is gone For there shall you se that I consyder hys wordes and declare two wayes that the good man myght meane of whyche twanne he taketh here the tone and the tother he letteâ—h slype And yet in takynge his wordes as he wolde nowe seme my wordes whyche he dyssembleth here turne vppe aâ—l his tale and that the man sawe full well and therfore wynked of theym But I shall brâ—nge theym in agayne here and repeâ—e theym for hym Lo good readers in y â— .xlvi. chapiter fo 253. after hâ—s wâ—rdes rehersed at length thus I 〈◊〉 myne owne Iâ— thys processe lo good readers this pacyfyer declareth that he wold haue the kynges hyghnes and hys counsayle so specyally loke vppon thys mater that neyther innocentes sholde be punyshed nor yet wylfull offenders go wythoute dewe correccyonâ— who could ende and coÌ„clude all hys mater more frutefully But now the specyall ways wherby he dyuyseth that the kynges hyghnesse and his counsayle sholde bryng this thynge about be twayne The tone is yf they prouyde that neyther men that be proude nor couetouse nor haue any loue to the worlde be suffred to be iudges in any cause of hâ—resye The tother ys that the byshoppes shall arreste no man for heresye tyll the desyre that spyrytuall men haue to cause men abiure heresyes and to punyshe theym for heresyee be ceased and gone And surely I thynke that his two dyuyses wyll serue suffycyently for the tone parte that ys to wytte that none innocentes shall be punyshed But I fere me very sore that they wyll not serue halfe so suffycyently for the tother parte that ys to wytte that wylfull offendours go not with oute correccyon For now to begynne with his fyrst dyuyse that none be suffred to be iudges in cause of heresye y t are proude or couetouse or haue loue to y e world yf he meane of suche as haue none of these affeccyons wyth notable enormyte then tyll he proue theym that are all redy worse thenne he proueth them yet that is to saye tyll he proue yt otherwyse by some of they re outragyouse dedes in the dealynge and myshandelyuge of men for heresy y t he here defameth them of theÌ„ he hath yet proued and that he proue they re cruell wrongful dealynge otherwyse then by somesayes or by hys owne sayenge the kynges hyghnes hys counsayle can se for all hys holesome counsayle no cause to chaunge those iudges that are all redy but to leue them styll and them serueth that dyuyse of nought And on the other syde yf he meane that the kynges hyghnesse shal suffer none to be iudges in cause of heresye that hath any spyce at all eyther of pryde or of couetyse or any loue at all vnto thys worlde heretykes may syt styll and make mery for a lytle season whyle men walke about and seke for such iuges For yt wyl not be lesse then one whole wekes worke I wene both to finde such and to be sure that they be suche ¶ Here haue you herd good reders a resonable cause why that I sholde take hym that he wolde haue the spyrytuall iuges such as shold haue no spice of pride couetouse nor worldly loue For either he must meane so or elles as I sayde he must meane on the tother maner which I reherse fyrste and whych he wold now seme to mean But then as I haue sayd yf he ment in the fyrst fashyon as he wolde now seme all his tale is ouer turned For then hadde he no cause of any suche complaynte For he nâ—yther hadde hym selfe when he wrote nor any man elles preued by any of theym the contrary And then neded he not to spende oute hys profounde wysedome in makynge suche exhortacyons to the kynges hyghnesse and his counsayle to se with so great dilygence as though they had be so long neglygent to the thyng that him self could not say nay but y t it was metely well ynough all redy And thus you se good reders that he lefte oute and dissembled that fyrst part of my wordes bycause he wysâ—e nere what to saye therto And therfore syth except he meÌ„t in the fyrst maner which he could not do without the marryng of all his mater you se well that him self droue me to thynke that he wold haue the kynges grace and his counsayle se dylygently that there shold be no spyrituall iudgê but they y t had no spice of pryde couetise or worldly loue at all And then myghte heretyques as I sayd whyle suche iudges were in sekynge make mery for a lytle whyle And I kepte my selfe metely well wythin my boundes For where I sayde yt wolde be a wekes worke to seke theym I wene yt wold he fourtenyght ful ere we founde them ¶ But then gooth he farther somewhat aboute to shewe that I haue mysse handeled his wordes wyth ioynynge myne owne vnto his haue made yt seme that he sayeth myche worse by the spyrytualtye then he eyther sayde or ment But when you haue herde all hys tale and myne to you shall well se good readers that he shall neuer whyle he lyueth conuey this gere so clene For these are fyrste his wordes here And he sayeth that yt wyll be the more harde to â—ynde suche iuges For he sayth that I haue putte that mater oute of doute that where no men wolâ—e haue wende â—oneste to haue founde theym that there I saye yt wyll be meruaylouse harde to â—ynde any one of theym eyther prelates seculere prestes or relygyouse persons For he saythe that I saye playnely that haue they neuer so many vertues besyde that yet I saye yt wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man
well inough offendours punyshed to ¶ To thys coÌ„meth forth this good maÌ„ in this wise Now veryly to those wordes of mayster More I dare say thus that mayster More or he had spoken tho wordes had occasyon by reasonable coniecture to haue doubted more at the mater thenne he hath done and to haue thought it very lyke that yf the same lawes shulde sâ—onde as do nowe in euery poynt concernynge heresye that many innocentes that be not gylty myghte vppon suspeccyon of heresy be dryuen to pourge theym selfe after the wyll of the ordynarye and yet be not gyltyâ— ye and ouer that mayster More myghte haue reasonably doubted as I suppose in conscieÌ„ce he ought to haue doubted more then he hath done that somtyme innocenteâ— myghte happen vppon the suyte Ex officio or vppon lyght complayntes by fauour of offycers or â—ppon malyce or dyspleasure be arrested before examinacyon and yet mayster More hym selfe assenteth that the examynacyon shulde be before the arreste And he myghte haue doubted also that some innocentes myght by suche periured persons as be aboue rehersed in thys chapyter be somtyme condempned And therfore the sayde wordes of mayster More wherby he taketh vppon hym to saye as it were in hys owne auctoryte to performe it that innocentes by the same lawes as be all redy made for heresye shal be saued harme lesse well inough myght happeÌ„ to be of small effect to helpe an innocent man or woman that shulde happen to be wrongfully troubled in tyme to come agaynst hys wordes before rehersed ¶ Now verily to all these wordê of this good maÌ„ I dare say thus that I whaÌ„ I wrote the wordê had yet haue very good coÌ„iecturs to put litle dowt therin For though I myghte thynke y t this harme and this harme myghte happe yet syth I haue well sene it proued y t the spyritual iudges haue vsed theÌ„ self iÌ„ these maters not onely so truly but ouer y t also so fauorably y t no maÌ„ can ê“ue in this realm suche harmes to haue happed yet but where as such thynges haue ben of late surmysed the trouth hath ben well proued contrary byfore the kyngâ—s honorable counsayle I had and haue very good cause to thynke that as they haue done well hytherto so shall they well do hereafter ¶ And syth all thys good mannes grownd is no more to take away wel approued lawes with but y e harme maye happe sometyme to some good man therby whyche reason he maye make agaynst the beste lawe that all the worlde can make I dare be bold to warraunt that that colde reason so feruentely sette forthe in suche a weyghty mater is not well worthe a ryshe ¶ And yf men wolde go aboute to chauÌ„ge these old long proued lawes I wolde as my duyte is praye god geue them y e grace to make the chauÌ„ges good but for that lytle wyt that I haue I veryly byleue and thynke that â—f any chaunges be made rather more slacke then streighter then shal the chaunges be made rather farre worse then better And thus ende I good readers this good mannys xvii chapyter The .xviii. chapyter HIs .xviii. chapyter begynneth fo lxix Wherin he begiÌ„neth first wyth the ca. vt inquisitionis negocium li. vi wherby yt appereth that all lordes and rulers temporall be prohyhyted that â—ey shall not in any maner take knowâ—edge or iuge vppon heresye And vpâ—on this hym self addeth vnto it in hiâ—â—oke of dyuysyon that he y â— enquyretâ— of heresy taketh knoweledge of herâ—â—y and y t him selfe sayth not so alone but that Summa Rosella sayth so to And hereuppon he concludeth that yt sholde seme that all the iustyces of the peace be excommunycate and al stewardes in letys all enquestes to as many as medle wyth all For whether in letys they may or not that he sayth he dowteth but he sayth y t I say they may but he telleth not where I say so nor as I veryly thynke he neuer founde yt in any boke of myne I saye in myne apologye fo 227. that in euery lete they do so whyther they lawfully so maye do or not thereof speke I nothynge all be yt I thynke they may well ynough bothe wythout offence of the kynges lawe or parell of câ—rsynge eyther ¶ For I lytle doute but that â—here were of the clergye at the mâ—kynge of the statute mo men then â—e y t vnderstode Summa Roselâ— as well as thys good man doth yf Summa Rosella were then made and in mennys handes ¶ And I doute not also as lytle but y t there were at those days in the clergye mo then one that were of counsayle in the makynge of the statute that vnderstode the chapyter vt inquisitionis as wel as this mam doth and as well as he that made SuÌ„ma Rosella to And that they well vnderstode that the sayde chapyter ment of suche inquysytours and suche inquysycyons as they make that are in the corps of the lawe called Inquisitores heretice prauitatis of whyche there are in some places specyall offycers to enquyre procede and do therin as thordynaryes do and ment not of such inquyrours and suche inquysycyons as do none other wise inquyre but onely by way of informacyon to brynge the mater to the ordynaryes knowledge ¶ For as for the minour of this good mannys argumeÌ„t that he that enqnyreth of heresye taketh knowledge of heresye so dothe euery denouncer euery accuser and in a maner euery wytnesse to take vppon theym knowledge of heresye in some maner wise for they take vppon theym as they well maye that thys thynge or that thynge is heresye But thys is not the knowlege that the law forbedeâ—h but the knowledge that we call holdynge ple vpon yt whyche our inquysycyons do not but onely serue to brynge the mater to the ordynaryes handes whyche ellys sholde peraduenture not haue herde therof ¶ And for thys cause to be sure that by these inquysycyons no man shold fall in daunger of any examynacyon yt was substancially prouyded in the sayde statute y t thynquistcyoÌ„ and the endyghtemeÌ„t of heresye shold serue the ordynarye nothynge to the procedynge in the mater but that he shold begynne hys processe agaynste the partye a freshe wythoute layenge that endyghtement vnto hys charge ¶ And therfore where as this good man by the hygh authorite of SuÌ„ma Rosella denounceth here al the iustyces of peace accursed I dare be bold by the hyghe authoryte of Summa Angelica to denounce them all assoyled agayne And therfore where as this good man wenynge that he had well wonne hys spurrys in thys poynte tryumpheth vppon me and sayâ—th And to thyâ— lawe mayster More anâ—wereth not But passeth yt â—uer as a thynge that â—â— yt semeth he lytâ—e regardeth but onely that he sayth that the lawes of thys realme and of holy chyrche in heresyes maye well stande to gether for oughte that he seeth And yet yt appereth that vppon thys lawe they do
were possyble as saynt Poule putteth the case that yf an angel came from heuyn preched a coÌ„trary gospell yet the same angel shold not be byleued But now syth he putteth it but by the spyrytuall rulers of one realme I admytte the case as possyble but yet as suche a case as I truste in god this good man shall se the skye fall fyrste and cache larkes ere it happen though it maye be lykely inough to happen in some one or twayne or some feweâ— agaynste whome the remanaunt shall preche and teche the trouth ¶ But now sayth thys good man thus If it so happened in them all than wolde they all pretende that by theyr authoryte gyuen them of god the people were bounden therin to byleue and obaye theym For they wolde than saye that theyr heresyes were none heresyes ¶ I am content lo to graunte hym all thys and I aske hym now what than For all thys good readers proueth you se very well no more but that yf that case happened that they also preched they wolde thanne al so pretende But all this proueth neuer a whyt that the spyrytuall rulers eyther now do or at any tyme haue done pretended theyr authoryte such Now consyder than for what purpose he speketh of suche pretendyng He sayeth you wote well theyr pretendynge of theyr authoryte to be so great that they people shold obay them without argument grudge or coÌ„tradiccyon in all y t euer they eyther say or do This he layth I say for so sore a cause of this diuision which he maketh in his boke y t he sayth the lyght of grace wyl not come to ceace it tyll they ceace so to pretende ¶ And therfore good readers syth thys is the thynge y t he sayth and the purpose that he sayth it for makyng it a cause of dyuysyon present how can he maynteyne hys sayenge with a case fayned wherby it may be that they wyll so pretende hereafter where as euer hytherto hym selfe sayth not naye but y t they bothe haue pretended and yet pretende the contrary Can he mayntayne y t the temporalty is at dyuision wyth the spyrytualty now all redy bycause it maye peraduenture happe here after by a farre fet possybylyte that they maye than no man woteth whan pretende peraduenture a thynge wherof they presentely pretende the contrary and protest also that yf the case sholde so mysse happe hereafter they desyre now for than y t no man sholde therin than byleue theym Saw you euer good readâ—rs any man with suche a symple subtyltye caste all his mater in the dust so shamfully Now where he sayth to maynâ—ayne hys mater here withall that it is not to suppose y e spyrytuall rulers wyll pretende that such authoryte as they haue of the grauÌ„te of prynces is immedyately of god I say that therin he sayth trouth and y t I suppose that they wyll not But yet let hym selfe loke wel in his own boke of diuisioÌ„ he shall fynde that hym selfe sayth y â— contrary there of that he now sayth here and sheweth some thynges whiche he bothe sayth that they haue but by the meane of prynces and the good mynde of the people and yet sayth also that they pretende to haue the same thynges immedyately of god As for ensample both theyr aâ—thoryte to haue y e tenth part for tythe and the thyngeâ— whyche they enioy by the name of y e lybertyes of y e chyrch wherby theyr persons be in many thynges pryuyledged in this realme byfore y e persoÌ„ of a say man These thynges hym selfe sayth y t they haue but by a meane and not immedyately of god And yet he sayth in this same xx chapyter that the thynges whych they call the lybertyes of the chyrch they pretende to haue immedyately of god and for all that he sayth now that it is not to suppose y t they wyll pretende so And thus you maye se good readers that for the defence of thys place he is dreuyn to a shrewde narow streyte whan to defende one fawte he is fayne to make twayne ¶ Now where as he saith I myght haue satysfyed my selfe wel inough and y t the letter of his wordes were playne you se that in the rehersynge agayne of hys own wordes fo lxxx he is fayne to suppresse stele away these hys owne generall wordes all that they do or teche to make hys wordê seme playne For as you se they standynge styll his wordes are playne agaynst hym For hym selfe now coÌ„fesseth y t they pretende not to do by authoryte immedyate fro god suche thynges as they do by authoryte gyuen them by prynces ¶ But bycause I wold fayne fully satysfye hym I shall now shew you y t with his new declaringe y t his wordes were well inough he hath made his mater out of all measure wurse ¶ For now rede his wordes agayne fo lxxx thâ—re you shall se y t he saith y t he meneth onely of such authoryte as y e spirituall rulers pretâ—Ì„de to haue immâ—diately of god And yet after he declareth it ferther better on y e secunde syde of the same lefe in y e .xiiii. lyne y t he meneth onely such authoryte not as they preteÌ„de to haue but as they haue in dede iÌ„mediately of god And to th entent men myghte se y t he meneth not of authorite falsely preteÌ„ded but truely had iÌ„mediatly of god he putteth for y e sample theyr authoryte in ministracyoÌ„ of y e sacrameÌ„tes ¶ Thys is hys owne exposicyon of his owne wordes whyche he wolde haue taken for so playne that he is angry with me that I could not spye it and so satysfye my selfe before ¶ Well go to now let vs reherse his owne wordes agayne as hym selfe for his owne aduauntage folio .lxxx. reherseth them let vs plant in hys owne exposicioÌ„ with theÌ„ to make his senteÌ„ce y e more clere thaÌ„ shal we se to what good conclusion he bryngeth all in conclusyon For than commeth hys whole tale to thys As longe as the spyrytuall rulers wyll pretende that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyately deryued of god in suche thynges as they haue theyr authoryte immedyately of god in dede as in the minystracyon of the sacramentes and such other thynges lyke that the people are bounden to obay them wythout argument or resystence so long the lyght of grace wyll not appere ¶ Now good readers here be now hys owne wordes wyth hys owne exposycion therin And how lyke you them now For now the senteÌ„ce hath he brought at last with myche wurke to none other but that the lyghte of grace wyll not appere as longe as the spyrytuall rulers pretende to be obayed and not resysted in the mynystracyon of the sacramentes suche other thyngê lyke bycause they haue theyr authoryte therin immedyately of god in dede But than on the tother syde whan so euer they wyll not pretende theyr authoryte so hygh therin nor so immedyately
great grounde cause euer synnys founden so profytable for preseruacyon of the fayth and proued se necessary vpon thys mannes own deuyces that without great encreace of heresyes they can not be forborne nor neuer can be chaunged but eyther to the strayghter or ellys to the wurse to come now forth and for appeasynge of dyuysyon so we fyrste a slaunder that maye make dyuysyon and than labour to chaunge those lawes vpon none other grouÌ„d but onely that an innocent may happe to take harme by meane of false iudges and than proue not any wronge done but by false some sayes onely agaynste whyche false some sayes the trouth is proued contrary bothe by iuste examynacyon before the kynges counsayle and ouer that playnely by thys one poynte also whyche no man can denye that there ys no lawe prouyded agaynste so great a cryme by whyche lawe lesse people haue in thys realme be punyshed therfore to come nowe thus as thys good man dothe and procure the chaunge of these lawes so olde so good and so necessarye and to make theym more easy wherwyth heretyques wolde war bolde whyche thynge hym selfe as you se denyeth not in the ende what is this good chrysten readers but to procure that the catholyque chrysten fayth myght fade and fall awaye ¶ And yet as for thys man hym self to tell you for conclusyon what I thynke all be yt there are as you se ryghte euyll and perylouse thynges in hys bokes wyth deuyces that wolde make heresyes encrease yet syth he professyth so playnely the catholyque chrysten faythe and by his exhortacyon also towarde the conqueste of the holy lande declareth hys mynde zelouse and â—eruent towarde yt I rather byleue though hym selfe therto saye naye that in those thynges whyche he wryteth so perylouse and so noughte some wyly shrewes begyle the good innocent man than that hym selfe in hys own mynde meane all that harme ¶ But yet for as myche as in thys poynt without syght of maÌ„nes hart we can but go by gesse who so goth by gesse may be deceyued For as hym selfe sayth a wolfe maye loke symply lapte in a shepes skynne I shall therfore trust the best and leue the trouth to god And concernynge suche euyll wrytynges syth yt must nedes be that he wrote them eyther deceyued by some shrewys or ellys but of hym selfe I can no more do for hym but hartely praye for hym thus If shrewys deceyue hym god sende theym shortely from hym If he wrote them of his own mynde thanne syth the thynges be noughte he wrote theym eyther of euyll wyl or of ouersyght If he wrote theym of malyce god geue the euyll man more grace If he wrote theym of folye god geue the good man more wytte ¶ And thus I beseche our lorde sende vs euerychone bothe the spyrytuall and the temporall to bothe wytte and grace to agre to gether in goodnes and eche to loue other and eche for other to praye and for those y â— of both partes are passed into purgatorye and there praye for vs as we praye here for theym that they and we bothe thorowe the merytes of Chrystes bytter passyon maye both wyth our own prayours and the intercessyon of all holy sayntes in heuyn auoydynge the eternall fyre of hell haue pyty powred vpon vs in the very fyre of purgatorye whyche in those two places veryly burneth soules And fynally for our fayth and good workes whych his grace workynge wyth the wylles of thoses y e wytte haue geueth eche good man here good geue vs in heuen to gyther euerlastynge glorye ¶ Prynted by w. Rastell in Fletestrete in saynte Bridys chyrch yarde the yere of our lorde 1533. Cum priuilegio The fautes escaped in the pryntynge of the fyrste part of thys boke fo pa. li. the fautes the ameÌ„demeÌ„tes iii. ii xxii in tenne shetes in .xii. shetes nor    nor in tenne in .xii. v. ii vi oloquye obloquye viii i. ii thre two x. i. x. an a ano a xii ii xii wyt to wyt into xiii ii xvi fole full xv iâ— i. appere â—â— by appere by xviii i. vii fayle whyche fayle to fal which xx ii xxi in conteyneth it conteyneth xxii i. x. that than xxv ii ii of a trew of trew xxv ii xi A And xxxiii ii xix all also xxxix i. xv wordes wordeâ— were xl ii x. yf but yf xlii ii v. pouerty and pouerte nor wold them no lesse then they haue and xliiii ii v. hycausâ— bycause xlv ii xvi iudge iudged xlv ii xviii persons prestes xlvi i. i. betwen prestes betwen other presteâ— xlvi i. vi the prestes the seculer presteâ— xlviii ii xx folke prestes â—â— ii ix therto therwyth lxi ii xxiiâ— iâ— to the is the lxvii i. vâ— no more I no more lxx i. xiv noneces no neces lxxxiii i. xvi aduowter aduowtry lxxxv i. iiii all talkynge all such talkyng lxxxv ii xiii founde fonde lxxxvi ii xii as ys lxxxvii i. iiii wolde they wolde lxxxvii ii xxxiii ther farther lxxxviii i. xxii proued prouyded ci i. xxii thys hyâ— The fautes escaped in the seconde parte fo pa. li. the fautes the ameÌ„demeÌ„tes iiii i. xix playne so playne v. ii i. certayne a certayne v. ii iiii setted setteth v. ii vi hys ground his foundacyon is thys All thys muste be in the great letter vii â—i xi vs therto vs viii i. v. Be By xxi ii xiii in hys hath in hyâ— xxvii i. vii admonicula adminicula xxviii ii iii. made is made xxxvii i. viii meaneth meaneth not xxxvii ii xii hadde it dyd it xli i. iii. it prouyded it was prouyded xlvii i. xxiii dyaloge opologye xlviii i. v. sheweth shewed xlix i. xix so to some to l. ii ix was was not lvi â— viii them then lx ii xxi proueth proue yet lxii j. v the contrary wythout some the coÌ„trary that is to wyt that he wil not trust a iuge so well thys can he not sayâ— wythoute some lxvii j. xviii felony for felony or for lxxi ij vii Almayne of Almayne lxxii j. ii Chryst with all whose Chryst with all whose lxxii ii xxi laâ—ys lanys lxxiiii ii viii But For lxxv ii xiii yf yâ— lxxviâ— ii viii than that lxxx i. xxii If he If we lxxx ii xiiii vp vppon lxxxiii ii xv xvi testyfye be testyfyed lxxxvii ii ii reason that reason xcv ii v. though thought xcviii ii xxiii an englysh englyshe ciii ii xxiiii haue any loâ—e haue loâ—e ciiii ii xi them then cxi j. xi that I and I cxi ii xxii founde fonde cxviii j. iii. doute not also dout also cxviiâ— ii xviii examynacyon excoÌ„munycacyon cxxvi j xviii xix xviii cxxxi j. x. so double double cxxxv j. xx purâ—ose purpose cxxxix ii xii be hygh be so hygh cxlvi j viii than doth than he doth cl j xv ble tably clii j. iâ—ii all thyng euyl all thynge well clii j. v. I fyrste fynysh I fynyshe â—lix j. xiii boldenesse and