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A14363 A fruteful treatise of predestination, and of the deuyne prouidence of god as far forth as the holy scriptures and word of god shal lead vs, and an answer made to all the vain and blasphemous obiections that the epicures and Anabaptistes of our time canne make. Set forth dialoge wise, by Ihon Veron.; Fruteful treatise of predestination, and of the devyne providence of god. VĂ©ron, John, d. 1563. 1561 (1561) STC 24680; ESTC S119102 83,266 305

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were hys shepe and of hys flocke they coulde not peryshe Whyche thynge may be proued by hys own wordes and sayinges whych haue bene rehearced alredy before and now for to make the matter more playne maye be rehearced again My shepe saieth he heare my voice and I know them Iohn x. and they folow me and I geue them life euerlastinge and they shal neuer perysh and no man shal plucke them oute of my hand My father which gaue me them is greater then al and no man is able to plucke them out of my fathers hande Here we haue The properties of the true shepe of Christ as it were set out before our eyes the propertyes of the true shepe of Christ Fyrst and foremost they heare his voice and folowe hym But they that forsake the knowen truth and turne to their olde vomyt agayne doo neyther heare hys voyce nor yet folowe hym Again as Christ geueth lyfe euerlastinge vnto hys true shepe so doth he promise that thei shal neuer perishe and that no man shal plucke them oute of his hande But they whiche after that they haue beene once lighted do fall awaye againe from the good word of God Heb. vi wherof they had tasted haue not lyfe euerlasting for as the Apostle saith it is impossible that they should be renewed vnto repentaunce they do pearyshe and are pluckt out of the shepheardes hand Therefore they are none of the true sheape And the cause whye the true sheape can not pearyshe nor be pluckte oute of the shephardes hande is onlye this because that the father which gaue them is greater than all and no manne is able to plucke them out of hys hande If Sathan than were able to bryng the true sheepe of Christe into perdition we shuld be fain to cōfesse that he is greater than the heauenly father and that he is of more power than the onlye begotten sonne of God I wold woulde wishe that they whiche do so boldlye affyrme that the electe and chosen of God and true shepe of oure sauioure Iesu Christ canne pearysh would but read this place of the Gospel where it is said that there shal arise many false Christes and false Prophettes Math. iiii whyche shall doe greate tokens and wonders in so muche that if it were possyble the verye chosen shoulde be broughte into error also Wher we do learne that though the elect be manye tymes tempted wyth erroures and wyth false and lyinge sygnes yet they can not be pluckte awaye from the truthe of oure sauioure Iesu Christ For they that are geuen hym of hys father can neuer pearyshe nor yet be pluckte out of hys hand ALBION Why dothe Saynte Paule say then Obiectiō i. Cor. x. Rom. xi Let hym that thincketh hym selfe to stand take hede least he fall And againe Art thou grafted in the people of God Be not thou hye mynded therfore but feare For God is able to cutte the of agayne and to grafte other in Feare I say seynge God hathe not spared the natural braunches least he also spare not thee Moreouer oure sauioure Iesus Christe saieth Math. xii that when the vncleane spiryte is gone oute of a manne if he chaunce to come in again the ende of that man shal be worse than the beginning Wherby we do learne that though a man be sanctified in our sauiour Iesu Christ and delyuered from the spirit of infidelitye and vnbeliefe yet he may fall into it againe Yea if the elect of God can neuer pearish what nead they to be exhorted at any tyme or to be admonished and rebuked What neade haue they that Gods worde should be preached vnto theym or that they shoulde make anye prayers vnto God PHILALETHES Aunswer As for the fyrste place that ye haue aledged oute of the tenthe chapyter of the fyrst Epistle to the Corinthians it shall easelye be vnderstanded if we wyll but marke the circumstances of it We muste consider that there Sainte Paule doth wryte agaynst certayne of the churche of Corinthus whyche did liue in a carnall securitye and that beynge puft vp with a vaine confidence did forget theyr owne infirmity and weakenesse and so did fall into horrible sinnes Such vaine confidence and carnall securitye did the Prophets rebuke in the people of Israel But because that Sathan the Deuel is wont to wraste thys place for to put menne in dout of theyr saluatyon whereby it commeth to passe that manye mennes consciences are horriblye tormented we shall note and marke that there is a certain security confidence whiche is most holy godly and which cannot be separated from the true faythe By it we do wholelye reast vppon the promises of God beinge fullye perswaded in our consciences that God as a mooste mercifull and louinge father will alwaies healpe aid and assiste vs. Therefore putting a side al vaine dread and fear we do reioyce and triumph against sathan the deuell againste sinne Notwithstandinge remembrynge stil our owne infirmity and weakenesse we do withal lowlinesse and humilitye of mynde commyt oure selues vnto the mercifull kepynge and protection of almighty GOD oure heauenlye father and abyde through faith vnder the shadowe of his winges Rom viii Of this sure confidēce and trust doth the Apostle speake in many places but most specially in the viii chapiter of the Epistle to the Romains wher he saith Who will seperate vs from the loue of God trouble or anguishe persecution or hunger nakednesse or pearill of the swearde I am sure that nether death nor life neither aungell nor rule neyther power neyther thinges presente nor thynges to come nor yet any creatures either aboue or beneath shal be able to seperate vs from the loue of GOD which is in Christ Iesu our Lorde There is an other securitye or confidence Vngodly securitye and confidence which dothe rise and come of a luskishnesse when men beyng pufte vp with the giftes that they haue receiued do behaue them selues as though they were wythout all gonne shot and were in no pearil at all wherby it cometh to passe that the enemy hath them alwaies at his auauntage Therefore the blessed Apostle S. Paule doth diligently warne the Corinthians to take hede and beware of such vaine confidence and carnal security because that he did perceiue that some of them were geuen to it did please them selues in their own conceites and folishe opinions but he dothe not bid them to doubte of the good wil of god towardes them or to be in feare Against whome Paule doth speake in the .x. cha of .i. Cor. i. as vncertain of their own saluation which they haue throughe Christe in whome we are chosen afore the foundacyons of the world wer laid To be short Saint Paule dothe here speake agaynste those that were hie myneded and puft vp with a vaine confidēce and trust which was grounded vppon men and not vpon god But when he speaketh of the true securitye or quietnesse of
of his heauenly kingdom of what estate condition or degre soeuer they be whether thei be kinges or subiects poore or ryche Iewes or gentiles Dy. But thys troubleth me sore that the Apostle saith that god hath closed vp al vnder vnbeliefe that he mighte haue mercy on al. Who wold not gather by these words that God wil haue al men to be saued PHI. The holy Apostle doth sufficiently expounde him self in another place Gala. iii. when he saith that the scripture did shut vp al vnder sinne that the promise by the faith of Iesu Christ shuld be geuen vnto them that beleue Here do we learn plainly what they be vnto whō this promise doth perteine EV. It appeareth that it perteineth vnto al them that take holde vpon it by faith vnto none other But only thei that be ordeined vnto life euerlasting can take a sure hold by faithe vppon the promises of God as it hath bene already sufficiently proued by manye and sondrye places of the scriptures Therfore this promise dothe pertaine vnto them onlye And on all them that be ordained vnto lyfe euerlastynge and so take holde by faythe vppon the swete promyses that be offered vnto vs in the scryptures God wyll be merciful wythout dout PHILALETHES More ouer we must consider that ther in that place the blessed Apostle S. Paule dothe speake of the Iewes and of the gentiles declaringe and prouinge vnto them that they had no cause to boaste one agaynste an other For by the scriptures and word of God they wer conuinced found to be vnder synne and vnbeliefe But leaste they shoulde dispaire he dothe adde by and by that God wyll haue mercye on theym all not that he did speake of the hole body eyther of the Iewes or of the gentiles but of al them that shuld beleue of them both I meane from among the Iewes and the gentils DIDY Obiectiō It cannot be denied but that the fyrst part of the sentence or saiyng of Paule doth pertayne to the hole bodye bothe of the Iewes and of the gentiles For it is mooste playne and euydent that they were al synners and shut vp al vnder vnbelief Why shuld not the last part pertayne to the hole bodye of them both also PHILALETHES Because Aunswer that the promises of gods mercy do pertain only vnto those that take hold vpon them by faith But none do flye vnto the mercy of god and take hold vpon it by faith sauyng only those that god doothe lyghten and illumynate wyth hys holy spyryt But none dothe he illumynate and lyghten but those only whome he hathe ordained vnto lyfe euerlastyng As for the place An Aunswer to the place which is aleaged oute of Eze. iii xxxiii that he haue aleaged oute of the prophet Ezechiel it doth only declare that God is readye to pardon and forgeue any synner and to delyuer hym from the death that he hath deserued through hys synne trespace if he wyll repente and turne But what synners canne repente and turne vnfaynedlye excepte it be geuen them of God Ye knowe what Sainte Iames sayeth Iames. i. how that euery good gyfte cometh from aboue desendinge from the father of lyghts but to repent and turne agayne vnfaynedly vnto God and to take sure holde vpon hys mercy throughe faythe is a speciall good gyfte therefore it comethe of God and dothe descende from the father of lyghtes But thys specyall good gyfte dothe the Lord geue onely vnto hys electe and chosen I meane vnto them whome he hathe ordayned and appoynted vnto saluation from the begynninge euen afore the foundacions of the worlde were layed EVTRAPELVS we haue a notable example of the same in the two theues that hong with Christ They both receaued the lyke doctrine dyd see the like signes and tokens wherby they myghte haue knowen Luc. xxiii that Christ was the true Messias the only begottē sōne of god Yet one of thē only did repent and turne the other blaspheminge styl with thē that did put our sauiour Iesu Christ to death What other cause can we bringe of this but only that the one was chosen and the other was not ALBION I doo perceaue by youre sayinges that the promyses of God do then take effecte when they be receaued taken hold vpon by faith but where no faythe is there they be of no valewe Obiectiō Rom. iii. Why then doth Saynt Paul saye that the vnbelief of men can not make the promyses of god to be of nō effect Aunswer PHI. What say ye brother Albion cā the blindnes of any man make that the lyght of the sun shal be no light AL. the light of the sun shal be lighte thoughe all men were blinde PHI. Yet ye wil not saye that a blynde man can receiue any profit by the lighte of the sunne AL. There is a good cause why sith that he lacketh hys eies sighte PHI. And yet notwythstanding they that haue their eies sight do receiue profit of it I mene they haue the fruition of the lyghte of the sun and enioy the commodities of it AL. That is moste true PHI. So iudge ye of the promises of God they that haue faith take hold vpon them by it they receyue an vnspeakable profit of them and by them but they that haue no faith but contemne despise them can haue no profit by them that is to saye the promises of god are vnto thē of no effect whiche commeth not of the nature properti of gods promises but of mens vnfaithfulnes and vnbelief ALBION Nowe do I perceyue that they onely do enioye the benefit of Goddes promises that take holde vpon them by faith but this true faith is onely geuen vnto thē that are chosen ordained vnto life euerlasting wherby we may well conclude that the promises of God do only pertain vnto thē This thē shal be the sum of al A shorte sum of whiche hath ben sayed before that hath ben saied before how that god hath frō the begynninge ordayned and appointe some for to be felow heyers with his son Iesu christ of his heauenly kingdome and some againe for to be euerlastingly dampned in hell fyre and that whome he hathe ordayned before to enioy and possesse euerlastyng life them he hath chosen in hys sonne Iesu Christe afore the foundacions of the world were layde and that of hys free mercy and goodnesse and without any respect at al of theyr owne deseruinges or merites for to sette forth the glory of hys grace and to declare his mercye through out all the hole world But whom he hath appoynted to be the vessels of hys wrath them he hath accordynge to his righteous and vnsearcheable iudgements stirred vp for to be the examples of his iustice and for to be glorifyed by their dampnation wherin he dothe them no manner of wronge sithe that he rewardeth them accordinge to their naturall corruption whiche they haue of their first
the first born is For who wold beleue the whosoeuer is promoted to the dignity of the first born he is also ordaivnto lyfe euerlasting PHILA Answer In dede there be some whiche in thys thynge do neuer a whytte spare Paule as thoughe he dothe wrast the scriptures into a wronge sence in aledging those authorities But I answer that the blessed Apostle S. Paule did nether mistake nor yet misuse the same authorities of the holy scripture For he did see whiche thynge they wil neyther marke nor consider that God wold declare and bring to light with an earthly token the spiritual election of Iacob which elsse was hidden in the secreates of his iudgemēts For except we do refer that right of the first born which was graūted him vnto the worlde to come that is to say excepte the ryght of the fyrste born which Iacob did bie of his brother Esau Gen. xxv did pertaine to a better life al the blessing wherof here in this world he did receiue nothynge elsse but affliction trouble and aduersity must nedes be vain and folishe Seinge then that the Lorde had by thys outward blessing testified and declared what manner of blessynge he hadde prepared for his seruaunt Iacob in his kingdome he dyd not sticke to grounde his argument vpon it whereby he wente aboute to proue the spirituall election of the holy Patriarche Iacob then is chosen and Esau is refused and all by the mere predestination of god when they had yet done nether good nor euill And if ye will knowe the causes whye The cause of oure election reprobation Rom. ix Ex. xxxiii Saint Paule doth aunswer that it was done because that it had bene said vnto Moses I wil shew mercy to whome I shew mercy and wyll haue Compassyon on whome I haue compassion Wher the Lorde doth plainlye declare that he fynedeth no manner of thynge in vs wherefore he shoulde do vs good but that he taketh occasion to do vs good of his mercye onlye And that therfore our saluation is hys owne woorke and not oures Sithe then that God doth appoynt thy saluation none other where but in hym self only why shouldest thou come down to thy self Syth that he doth assigne vnto thee his mercy onlye why shouldest thou runne to thine owne merites Contente thy selfe with his mercy and set al thy workes a side Obiectiō ALBION Yet for all this both Ambrose Origene and Hierome were of opinion that God dyd dispose and deuide his grace amōg men as he did for se that they shuld vse it PHILALETHES I doe not denye it Answer Li. retract i. Cap. i. Episto ad sextum cix yea I say furthermore that S. Augustine was of the same opinion also But after that he had profited better in the knowledge of the scriptures and word of God he did not only reuoke it but also dyd moste mightelye confute it as false and erroneus Yea after his retraction rebukinge the Pelagians because that they continue still in the same errour he saith plainlye these wordes Against the Pelagiās who woulde not meruaile that the Apostle shoulde haue wanted this witty vnderstanding For when he hadde set forthe a matter which was to be wondred and meruailed at touching them that were not yet borne Rom. ix and had made an obiection to him selfe sayinge What then is there any vnrighteousnesse with God he had occasiō to answer that god had forsene the merites of them both yet he did not so but did flie to his iudgementes and mercy And in an other place when he had taken awaye all the merites before our election Home in Ioa. 8. he saith Here truelye the vaine reasoning of them canne take no place whiche do defend the foreknowledge of God against his grace and therfore do say that we wer chosen afore that the foundacions of the world wer made because that God did forsee that we would be good and not that he hym selfe should make vs good He sayth not so that saythe Ye haue not chosen me but I haue chosen you For if he had therefore chosen vs because that he had forsene that we would be good he shuld also haue knowne before that we woulde haue chosen him Let this serue for them They doe alwaies a peale vnto the fathers and yet they will follow none of theyr holesome doctrine that do so gladly reast vpon the authority of the fathers But go to let it be as thoughe he had sayde nothynge at all and so let vs come to the very matter it selfe There was a very harde question moued whether God dyd iustlye or not in thys that he dyd geue hys grace to certayne men Here Paule myght haue ryd hym self wyth one word if he wold haue had any respect vnto the workes and merites For he myghte haue answered straighte that God dyd so because that he dyd foresee their merites and woorkes But why doth he not so but rather cōtynueth styll in a Communicatyon whyche is of lyke difficultye and hardnesse Shall we saye that the holy gost which spake by his mouthe was obliuious or forgetful we se that he goth not about the bush but answereth plainly that God dothe show fauour vnto his elect because that it is his will so to do and that he sheweth mercy because that hys pleasure is so For when the Lord saith I will shew mercy to whome I shew mercye and will haue compassion on whome I haue compassion Ex. xxxiii it is as much as if he shuld say that nothing doth moue him to mercye but onlye because that he wyll shew mercy that is to say that the only thinge that moueth hym to be merciful or to shew mercy and compassion is only his blessed wil and pleasure Therfore the sayinge of Saint Augustine shal remain most true Home in Ioa. 38. Episto cvi where he saith that the grace of God doth not finde vs worthy to be chosen but maketh vs worthy I do here let passe the vaine subtelties of the schole men which canne take no place among them that contente them selues with the wholesome doctrine and heauenly wisedome of Gods worde For that is very true which an olde Ecclesiasticall wryter did wryte sayinge that they which do assigne Am. de vo ca. gentium Li. 1. Ca. 1. attribute and adscribe the election of God vnto the merites of men are wyser than it behoueth ALBION But what wyll ye saye of the reprobate and damned For Question nowe I do perceyue that God doth chuse vs of his free mercy and goodnesse withoute any respecte of our owne works and deseruyngs PHILALETHES We nede to go no farther than to the example Aunswer touching reprobation that we brought fourth last For there Iacob hauinge yet deserued nothinge with his good workes is receaued ●n to fauoure and Esau reiected ●nd cast of though he had done yet 〈◊〉 maner of euil If we should flye ●nto the workes that is to saye if