mislike onely he sayd that he vnderstoode not of our comming Then we beginning with the first part of his sayd booke did demaund of him with what reason he could charge the Queenes Maiesties most mercifull gouernment and vs that at this time professe the Gospel as he did in yâ— Preface of his said booke with unused and strange crueltie and torments practised vpon his fellowes in religion seeing that the Authors and professors of their Religion had most cruelly burnt aliue so many thousands of vs for the maintenance of our Religion onely besides diuers other wayes of most horrible torments whereas none of them was euer executed for Religion but either for treason or some other notorious crime punishable with death by the Lawes of the Realme Whereunto he answered that he was punished for Religion himselfe and had bene twise on the Racke and that racking was more grieuous then hanging and that he had rather chuse to be hanged then racked Whereunto one of vs sayd that belike Master Campion being the Popes tender Pernell accounteth a litle racking of him selfe to be more crueltie then the roasting quicke of many thousands of vs. You must quoth Master Campion consider the cause the cause why and not the punishment onely It hath bene euer your maner sayd we not onely to vse petitione principij but totius also not only to require a principal point in controuersie but euen the whole it self to be graunted vnto you as that your cause is good and that you be the true Church of Christ as you continually presume and take vnto you But thanks be to God the contrarie hath bene so prooued that a great part of Christendome doeth euidently see it And many thousands who were before of your Church haue fled to vs from it as from the synagogue of Antichrist And concerning his racking Master Lieutenant being present sayde that he had no cause to complaine of racking who had rather seene then felt the racke and admonished him to vse good speache that hee gaue not cause to be vsed with more seuerity For although said he you were put to the racke yet notwithstanding you were so fauourablie vsed therein as being taken off you could and did presently go thence to your lodging without helpe and vse your handes in writing and all other partes of your body which you could not haue done if you had bene put to that punishment with any such extremitie as you speake of Besides this Master Beale one of the Clarks of her Maiesties priuie Counsell being by chaunce present demaunded of him before all the companie there assembled whether that being on the racke he were examined vpon any point of Religion or no Whereunto he answered that he was not in deede directly examined of Religion but moued to confesse in what places he had bene conuersant since his repaire into the Realme Master Beale sayde that this was required of him because many of his fellowes and by likelihood he him selfe also had reconciled diuers of her Highnes subiectes to the Romish Church and had attempted to withdrawe them from their obedience due to their naturall Prince and Soueraigne Whereunto he answered that forasmuch as the Christians in olde time being commanded to deliuer vp the bookes of their Religion to such as persecuted them refused so to doe and misliked with them that did so calling them Traditores he might not betray his Catholike brethren which were as he sayd the temples of the holy Ghost But it was replied by Master Beale that it was conuenient in policie for the Prince to vnderstande what such as were sent from the Bishop of Rome her Maiesties and the Realmes mortall enemie did within her dominions and to knowe her foes from her faithful subiects specially in such a time as this wherein we liue that this inquirie did not touch the cause of Religion After this we came to the matter of his booke And first where he chargeth vs that we haue nowe of a sudden cut off many goodly and principall partes of the holy Scriptures from the whole body thereof of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as hee writeth and for example and proofe thereof he nameth first the Epistle of Saint Iames which Luther that flagitious Apostata saith he in the Preface of the same Epistle and in his booke De captiuitate Babilonica nameth contentious puffed vp drie or barren as a thing stuffed with strawe and iudgeth it vnworthie the Apostolique spirit wee answered that if Luther had so written yet Master Campion did vs wrong to charge vs with violating of the Maiestie of the holy Bible for reiecting of the sayde Epistle of S. Iames who doe and alwayes haue receiued the same Epistle Yet we prayed him that he would shewe these wordes in the places by him noted which he sayd he would if he had the bookes The booke wherein was Luthers Preface to that Epistle being deliuered him when he had read some part of the sayd Preface and found that Luther did allowe and commend that Epistle as in deede he doeth testifying that though it were reiected of some olde writers yet he commended it and tooke it to be good and profitable which wordes of Luther when Master Campion had read he shut the booke and sayde that it was not of the true edition We answered that the print was not lately published being almost fourtie yeeres sithence and that we had searched all other printes that we could come by and found them to agree with this and that we thought there was no other and therefore we prayed him that he would shewe some edition wherein it was so set downe as he alleaged it in his booke He sayd he thought it was so as he had alleaged in the same booke of Luther in the Dutch tongue Then we offered to bring him the Dutch booke for the triall of the trueth of the Latin translation but he refused to see the same But it was aduouched vnto him as the trueth is in deede that it was likewise in the Dutch booke as he had read it in the Latin for that we had made conference thereof Then he desired to see Luthers booke De captiuitate Babilonica This booke also we deliuered to him and desired that he would shewe those wordes there He read the wordes in Latin which are these in effect I passe ouer saith Luther that many doe very probablie affirme that this Epistle is not Saint Iames the Apostles nor worthie the Apostolike spirit Here Master Campion thought that he had founde at the least that Luther had sayd that the sayd Epistle was not worthie the Apostolike spirit But wee prayed him to consider that Luther spake of other mens iudgement and not of his owne as in the same place is most euident to see and also before in his Preface to that Epistle he expresly deuideth his iudgement from theirs But Master Campion much vrged the wordes very probably whereby saith
away our sinnes and heale all our diseases through the righteousnesse of Iesus Christ our onely saluation Open our eyes we beseech thee that wee may at this time beholde and so frame our hearts that we may gladly embrace thy most holy trueth as thou hast left it vnto vs by thy holy seruants the Prophets and Apostles Graunt this knowledge and loue of the trueth with dayly increase not onely to vs O Lorde who through thy grace alreadie make profession thereof but also vnto all those that yet set them selues against the same that they acknowledging the trueth of thy word may cleaue to it forsaking all superstitious vanities and seeing the all sufficient righteousnes sacrifice of thy only sonne may lay hold of it denying them selues renouncing their own merites falsly named righteousnes Graunt vs these things O heauenly Father for thine onely sonnes sake Iesus Christ our alone sauiour redeemer in whose name we aske the praying as he hath taught vs Our Father c. Walker We haue in the forenoone entreated of the Canonicall scriptures and of their sufficiencie Now we haue to entreate of fayth God graunt vs grace that we may see the trueth and hauing fayth may rest in it to our endelesse comfort Let vs before we enter into the matter declare somewhat concerning the state of the question We holde therefore that we are iustified by fayth onely and that freely no other woorkes concurring for that purpose And yet we set not downe a bare and naked fayth as our aduersaries charge vs. For we confesse that fayth hope and charitie are coupled and lincked together and that loue is the greatest But we affirme that fayth onely is that instrument whereby we lay holde vpon the loue of God which is the onely foundation of our saluation By that title therefore wee exclude all mens workes and vertues as meritorious and onely looke to the merits of Christ. Camp I will declare to you my meaning also Wee are agreed that God doeth iustifie and for Christs sake onely through his grace and through his mercie alone through his Sacraments and through baptisme Thus farre we agree but herein we disagree For we say that when God doth iustifie he doth giue vs of his grace three distinct giftes fayth hope and charitie and these are as three causes of iustification and charitie a principall cause which frameth the first act in vs. We say therefore that as grace is put in vs in iustification so also our righteousnesse is enlarged through good workes and is inherent in vs. Therefore it is not true that God doeth iustifie by fayth onely Charke Campion you are not to vse your old sleight in running from the matter and loading one thing vpon an other The question is whether we be iustified by faith onely that is now that which is in question to be decided 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and you are not to change the state of the question Walker Well let your declaration stande for defence although we agree not For there are sundry causes of iustification finall and middle But faith is the first thing in vs that receiueth iustification and yet it is not of vs. Camp I grant that there are mo causes then one Walker Well though I be an olde man and haue bene long from the vniuersitie I meane yet to examine you in the grounds of these things and to go with you from poynt to poynt and so we shall find out our disagreement best I pray you what is the Etymon of fayth Camp It is called fayth Quia fit quod dictum est Because it is performed that is spoken as I take it Walker That is true Dicitur a fiendo quia Dominus fidelis est Because the Lorde is faythfull standing to his worde and keeping his promise with vs. But in vs fayth is a certaintie or sure perswasion and therefore it is called by the Apostle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or elenchus foundation or argument It is therefore the ground and before all other things that come after it as the foundation is before the building Camp I grant it But what inferre you hereof Walker This I inferre Fayth is the grounde and before all things that come after it Ergo it is before hope and charitie Camp In nature it is before them but it doth not iustifie before they do come Walker Prius and posterius First and last bee taken diuers wayes It is not before Tempore but Dignitate ordine Not in time but in dignitie and order Camp That is contrarie to S. Paul For he sayth Charitas est maior Loue is greater Walker You must vnderstand what Paul meaneth therby It is Maior duplici respectu It is greater in a double respect In respect of God and in respect of men and so extendeth further Camp Uery well I like your causes well but it is simplie greater and more excellent Walker Let me proceede then It is greater in that it is more necessarie to the life of man and also in diuturnitie because it neuer dieth nor hath any ende Camp I grant you all this But what are those to the matter of iustification But let me adde a thirde also that it is digâ—…ior because faith and all good workes are nothing without loue But let vs heare your argument Walker The ground is before that which is grounded vpon it and in all good order we vse to set the most worthie first Thus therefore I reason Faith is the foundation ergo before the other Camp If you meane in dignitie it is not true It is before in order but not in dignitie For the roote is not more worthie then the tree though it be afore it Walker Paul sayth Fundati radicati in fide speaking of the assuraÌ„ce they had in their saluation And it was necessarie they should be thus grounded and rooted in the faith before they could bring forth the fruits of faith The fruits were good works which were not the cause of their iustification but the effects of men engraffed in Christ iustified already this root was before the fruit Camp I grant as before In order but not in worthinesse For the fruit is more worthie then the roote Walker Omnis causa efficiens est dignior effectu Euerie efficient cause is more worthie then the effect Camp I deny that faith is the efficient cause of good works It is a cause antecedent but not efficient But we are agreed vpon this Let vs go to another argument Walk Uerie well it is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a sure argument of things that are not seene a thing vndoubted Camp Where is the place It is called the foundation of euerlasting life and an argument of things not seene because I knowe it is by no other argument but by fayth But what inferre you Walker You shall heare anon What is Subiectum fidei the subiect of fayth and what is Obiectum fidei the obiect of fayth In quo
⧠A true report of the Disputation or rather priuate Conference had in the Tower of London with Ed. Campion Iesuite the last of August 1581. Set downe by the Reuerend learned men them selues that dealt therein Whereunto is ioyned also a true report of the other three dayes conferences had there with the same Iesuite Which nowe are thought meete to be published in print by authoritie IMPRINTED AT LONDON by Christopher Barker Printer to the Queenes most excellent Maiestie Ianuarij 1. 1583. ERRATA A. signifieth the first page B. the second The numbers shewe the line  Faulte Correction C. ii a. line last commoda for commoda D. ii a. 25. in the margent Normam Limam D. ii b. 36. both loth D. iiii a. 27. lewd lowd D. iiii b. 19 Proofe processe H. iiii line last by in D d. iiii b. 9. iustified infected To the Reader MAster Campions Booke being at large answered shortly after our conference with him which was concerning certaine points in the beginning of the fayd booke onely and our sayd conference also being partly remembred in the saide answere of his booke though we had immediatly vpon the sayd conference set downe in writing certaine notes of the same out of our fresh memorie to all euents Yet we thought there was no cause the whole booke being confuted why we should publish our dealing with him concerning a fewe pointes in the beginning thereof onely specially Master Campion being now dead and not to replie thereunto himselfe so that we layd aside our notes and without all thought of any publishing of them at all But there hauing bene sithen by others the fauourers of him and his cause partly in print but in written Pamphlets much more dispersed wherein Master Campions surmised glorious conquest against vs is exceedingly set forth and some of them so confidently that in the conclusion thereof the Authour saithe The Catholikes by the iudgement of those that were not wedded wholy to will did get the Goale And againe In my soule I protest that in any indifferent iudgement the aduerse protestaunts were quite confounded and if I were not a Catholique already the onely hearing of that conference would haue made me one Vpon such vntruthes and impudencie of such writers we were partly of our selues enclined and by the often and earnest exhortations of others importuned and by some of great authoritie almost inforced to set downe the true report of the saide conference whereby we trust that all those Catholiques as they woulde be called that haue any sparke of shamefastnesse left may blush for Master Campions sake being so manifestly deprehended in so many lyes so braggingly aduouched and in print in the Lattin tongue published to the worlde Surely we doe thinke our selues and may say in trueth that if we had bene so openly conuicted so many wayes and in such sorte as Master Campion then was we should while we liued be ashamed to shewe our faces And we haue indeede heretofore out of our fresh memories then made reporte of diuers partes of this our conference vnto diuers persons as occasion hath serued and not dissembled that we found not Campion such a man as by his challenge and booke and other mens reportes of him we looked for and that vpon this our conference with him we verely thought the booke published in his name to haue bene none of his But by such Pamphlets as these be and like reports by word his surmised victories against vs were so speedily suread abroade that diuers Gentlemen and others neither vnlearned nor of them selues euill affected gaue not much credite to our sayings of that value is the first report in some eares and heades which hath among other things moued vs not a litle to set downe at the last this our true report of our saide conference vpon hope that trueth in time may take place We doe knowe they will cauill at this as our biting of a dead man whome being aliue they will say we could not all matche But the trueth is we doe defende our selues against the backebitings of many slaunderous reporters who doe yet liue and lurke in euery corner by false reportes and writings continually indeuouring to suppresse or at the least to blemish the trueth vpon euery least occasion offered or sought As first they began so they continue For whereas diuers of vs at diuers times had conference with Campion and his fellowes the time being such that so many of vs as could get leaue when we had once conferred with him his fellowes departed into the countrey from whence we were called and others remaining in the citie assaying whether it might please God that they coulde doe any good with them to their reformation this was foorthwith by reportes and pamphlets euery where so framed and dispersed as though Campion like some great beare or Lyon rather as they woulde haue him seeme had shaken vs all off like cowardly curres one after another But that religion can not long stand that is vnderpropt and stayed by such impudent lyes as amongest many other things may well appeare to all that with indifferencie without foreiudgement will reade and consider our true reporte of the sayd conference Which why we haue not published it before and why we doe publish it nowe we haue shewed the true causes howsoeuer they shall cauill that vpon misliking of our parts we haue not published it hitherto and find fault also that we haue published it nowe Surely we with good conscience may affirme this our report in the substance of matter to be most true though our memorie could not alwayes retaine the order or the very wordes wherein euery sentence was vttered A. Nowell W. Daije A true report of the conference had with Campion and others by the Deane of Paules and the Deane of Windsor in the Tower of London the last of August the 23. yere of the Queenes Maiestie and of the Lord 1581. WE the Deane of Paules the Deane of Windsor being sent to the Tower to haue conference with Master Campion and his fellowes in matters of Religion and by order of Master Lieutenant admitted into the Chappel of the Tower whither the said Campion and others were brought shortly after our meeting sayd to Master Campion that we came thither to the end to do him good if it might please God to giue such good successe howsoeuer he or any other should thinke otherwise of vs. And because it should not seeme to him that our meaning was to take any aduantage against him by our sudden comming to him we our selues being prepared for the Conference we sayd we intended to deale with him in no other matters then such as were conteined in his owne booke by him so much studied written and so lately published in print wherin he hauing made so large a Challenge as he had we sayde we thought he could not thinke himselfe to be suddenly taken as unprouided Of which speach he seemed not much to
and whether he knewe them to be true He answered that he wrote his booke as he traueiled and that he coulde not we knewe cary a librarie about with him and therefore he was forced to giue credite to his notes We said it was more credible that he brought the saide booke ouer with him readie framed by the common and long conference of him selfe and his fellowe Iesuites at conuenient opportunitie suddenly to be published rather then that he did write it in his trauels hauing so much besides to do being destitute of his librarie as he said which is the vsual maner as we said of you all hūting thereby for popular praise of speedie writing But when howsoeuer you did write your booke said we you haue vsed ouermuch boldnes so cōfidently to publish in print these slaūderous reportes of such men as you haue named being not able to make any proofe of that wherof you accuse them And vpon these such good grounds of yours you doe most vnreasonably and vntruly charge vs all as those that haue rased mangled and spoyled the body of the holy Bible The third testimonie or proofe alleaged against vs by Master Campion in his booke is taken out of the Centuries written by Illiricus and others which booke being giuen into his handes and the like demaunde made as before he would neither reade nor once open the booke neither yet made he any answere thereto knowing that he could make no exception to the print as he did before to Luthers bookes seeing that booke was neuer printed but once And besides where they as Historiographers had only set down the iudgements of S. Hierome Eusebius Epiphanius and of other ancient fathers concerning this Epistle of Saint Iames of Tobias the bookes of Macchabees c he knewe that he could not thereby proue his assertion that they suddenly cut away so many goodly partes of the holy Bible much lesse that we had so done as he doeth in his booke charge vs. For which causes chiefly he would not as much as once open those bookes and for the same cause he woulde not looke vpon Kemnisius whome and vs by him he had likewise falsely charged When Master Campion could not shew these words out of any of those books by him alleaged nor any good matter to proue thē nor vs suddenly to haue rased mangled and spoyled the holy Scriptures as he chargeth vs of desperation in our cause to haue done then did we shewe him that we had not nowe suddenly as he vntruely reported cut off any part or line of the body of the holy Scriptures but made onely a difference betweene those bookes of the Scriptures that be commonly called Canonicall and of all men be taken for vndoubtedly true from those that haue bene long ago suspected of many and are called Apocrypha according as was before set downe by the ancient Doctors of the Church aboue a thousand yeres since more And for the proofe hereof we alleaged the testimonie of Saint Hierome In Catalogo Scriptorum ecclesiasticorum where he thus writes of the Epistle of Saint Iames named by Master Campion The Epistle of Saint Iames is sayd to be published by some other man vnder his name And of the second Epistle of Saint Peter he saith in the same booke that it is denied of many to be his by reason of the difference of the stile To this Master Campion answered that Hierome spake not of his owne iudgement but reported what others sayde of them We answered if Saint Hierome so reported of other mens sayings of those Epistles and did not him selfe gainesay it that it was a manifest token that he did not greatly mislike their sayings And seeing in S. Hieromes time and before those Epistles were doubted of you doe vs great wrong sayd we to charge vs that we haue suddenly cut them off from the body of the Bible who in deede notwithstanding the former doubtes of them gladly receaue and allowe them We alleaged againe S. Hierome In Prologo Galeato et Epistola ad Paulinum where hee sheweth his owne iudgement what bookes of the Scriptures of the olde Testament are to be taken for Canonicall and which haue bene doubted of which Epistles quoth we haue bene written and printed in all Bibles by the space of these thousand yeres and more to warne al readers of that difference of the said Apocrypha from the true Canonicall and to arme them as it were against the errour of confounding the Canonical Scriptures with these Apocrypha for the which cause as it seemeth hee also nameth that Prologue Galeatum as an helmet for defence against that error But nowe sitchence the Tridentine Councill some Popish printers haue left out the sayd Prologue and Epistle of S. Hierome who yet declareth this his iudgement likewise in his Preface to the first booke of Esdras also Sherwin one of Master Campions fellowes answered to these allegations that Hierome did Iudaizare and more was not ◅ayd to these places We also alleadged Eusebius who hauing made rehearsall of those bookes of the newe Testament which be vndoubtedly true nameth also such as were gainesayd and writes thus Quibus vero contradicitur c. those bookes that are gainesayde though they be knowen to many be these The Epistle which is attributed to S. Iames the Epistle of Iude the latter of Peter the second and third of Iohn And the same Eusebius in another place affirmeth plainely the sayd Epistle of S. Iames to be a counterfaite or bastard Epistle To this authoritie they said that it was true that he so said and as we alleadged them and that when he wrote it was lawfull for any man to doubt of those bookes that he called Apocrypha but seeing by the Church that was by the Councill of Carthage now also by the Councill of Trident they were receiued for Canonicall it was blasphemie they said to doubt of the authoritie of those bookes To that was replied that the Synode of Laodicea helde them for Apocrypha Yea said they but that Synode was not generall No more was that of Carthage said we No said they but that of Carthage was after confirmed by a generall Councill in Trullo So was quoth we the Synode of Laodicea which helde them for Apocrypha confirmed also by the same generall Councill in Trullo as there is to be seene But howe doth this agree that not long before you did saye absolutely that S. Iames epistle was written by the same spirit that S. Iohns Gospell was written with and now you ground the credit of S. Iames Epistle and the other vpon these Councils But said we these Councils had no authoritie to make any maner writings Canonical that was not before Canonicall For by the iudgement of S. Augustine in many places of his bookes there are two things requisite to proue any writing Canonicall one is the testimonie of the Church in which the authour liued
it was straight answered Master Sherwin you may see that the Apostle speaketh there of faith in working of miracles euen by the wordes of the Apostle him selfe who saith If I should haue all faith so that I could remoue mountaines and haue not charitie I am nothing And when he cryed still omnem fidem all faith and that therefore it must conteine our faith also els we had none at all It was answered by vs If you will not beleeue vs yet let Saint Chrisostomes exposition be of some authoritie with you who calleth it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 faith not of doctrine but of miracles saith Saint Chrisostome euen as we also do say which faith the wicked may haue as our Sauiour Christ teacheth and therefore all faith to worke miracles doeth not conteine that true faith which doeth iustifie him that hath it Further they obiected Saint Pauls wordes in his Epistle to the Galathians Faith worketh by charitie We answered that vnlesse faith doe worke by charitie it is no faith at all but that made nothing against our iustification by faith onely But here they reasoned against vs thus If faith onely iustifie then it iustifieth without charitie But that was contrary to the text of the Apostles Therefore onely faith doeth not iustifie We answered this Syllogisme consisteth of foure termes For it is one thing to say that faith onely doeth iustifie and another that faith is not without charitie For when we say that onely faith iustifieth we meane not to denie that charitie is ioyned with that faith which iustifieth being inseparably vnited vnto it but that onely faith and not charitie is the meanes by which we imbrace Iesus Christ our iustification and righteousnesse And this we indeuoured to make manifest by an example The fire quoth we hath heate and light which qualities can not bee seuered in that subiect yet the fire burneth by heate onely and not by light Nowe if any will reason thus If the heate of the fire onely burne then it burneth without the light of the fire but that it can not doe Therefore it burneth not by heate only They should shewe them selues to be absurd that so woulde reason sayd we And such is your reason against the iustification of faith only because it can not be separated from charitie Likewise though the parts of mans bodie be ioyned together and one is not without another in a perfect bodie yet doeth the eye onely see and the eare heare onely and euery part hath his distinct office Then Master Sherwin alleaged out of the Epistle to the Ephesians Ipsius sumus factura creati in Christo Iesu in bonis operibus That is We are his workemanship created in Christ Iesus in good workes We looked in the Greeke Testament and found 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad opera bona vnto good workes and so answered that Saint Paul saith not we are the creatures of God in Christ thorowe good workes but that we are created of God in Christ to do good workes which Master Sherwin looking vpon the greeke Testament coulde not denie Further we told Master Sherwin that if he tooke that place in that sense that we were created in good workes he was contrary to Master Campion who graunted that good workes doe come after the first grace and not to be ioyned with our first creation in Christ Iesus as Master Sherwin would haue it And besides that we did admonish him that the place by him alleaged did of all others most effectually make against theÌ„ and for vs. For immediatly before the wordes by him alleadged Saint Paul sayth thus Gratia enim estis saluati per fidem hoc non ex vobis Dei enim donum est non ex operibus ne quis glorietur That is You are saued by grace through faith and that not of your selues it is the gift of God not of workes least any man should boast himselfe In this sentence of Saint Paul euery parcell quoth we maketh for vs and against you The cause of our saluation is the grace of God the instrument whereby we receiue it is faith the false cause alleadged by you is here excluded that is our workes Master Campion alleadged Qui instus est iustificetur adhuc He that is righteous let him be more and more righteous And thereupon he sayde he would not refuse to subscribe that we be iustified by faith onely so that we would subscribe that being so iustified we ought afterward to walke forward more and more in the workes of righteousnesse We graunted that we would so subscribe But M. Sherwine said vnto M. CaÌ„pion Take heed what you do Then sayde Master Campion If you will so subscribe and graunt withal that those good workes are meritorious or do merite I will subscribe to faith onely Doe you nowe come in with your merite sayde we we will none of it neyther will acknowledge any merite quoth we in respect of our iustification or of the kingdome of heauen but only the merites of Christs passion And so our subscribing was dasht by master Campions addition of merite to that which before he promised without any mention thereof But you doe knowe well sayde master Campion that often mention is made in the scripture of this worde merces that is of rewarde for our good workes And that at the last iudgement it shall be sayde Come into the kingdome ye blessed For I was bungrie and ye fed me c. So that these good workes are mentioned as a cause or a meane at the least of entering into the kingdome of heauen We deny not sayd we but the worde merces is often mentioned in the holy Scriptures and that God will rewarde our good workes farre aboue our deseruing but that merces is ex misâ—…ricordia Domini dantis non ex merito hominis accipientis That reward is of the mercie of God giuing it and not of the merite of man receiuing it For when it is sayd He that giueth a cuppe of colde water shal not loose his reward if you take that reward to be the kingdome of heauen and the lande of the liuing to be giuen for the merite thereof surely you make it to be of more easie purchase than any land in this worlde can be be it neuer so little And concerning the last iudgement the wordes of our Sauiour Come possesse the kingdome prepared for you before the beginning of the worlde may giue you to vnderstand that it is not giuen for the merite of any their good workes which they coulde not doe before they were any thing And the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Take ye the inheritance of the kingdome sheweth that it is giuen to vs in Christ as inheritaunce which the Father giueth to his children freely and is not purchased by our good workes Besides that though our Sauiour Christ will of his speciall grace and fauour remember those almes done to the poore in his name and
pray all indifferent readers to consider of these maner of dealings For Saint Augustine in that place writeth against the wicked opiniō of those who mistaking Saint Paules wordes of Iustification by sayth without workes do by an euill securitie neglect to liue well not seeking by true faith the helpe of God to the ouercomming of their owne euill concupiscences but doe despise the workes of righteousnes by a dead faith do promise to them selues euerlasting life These be Saint Augustines expresse wordes in that place truely translated which they haue most vntruely and malitiously alleaged against vs against the heresie as they terme it of iustification by faith onely which they woulde haue the simple people to mistake as though wee woulde exclude all things vniuersally sauing faith onely and did vtterly cast away all care of good workes godly life yea and all desire of Gods grace to assiste vs as did they against whom S. Augustine in that place did write But we protest before God and all good men that we neuer meant to make faith the chiefe and onely cause of our iustification but that the grace and mercie of God by our sauiour Iesus Christ promised to the faithfull in his holy worde is the principall and originall cause and very fountaine of our iustification and that faith not a dead faith as they thought against whome S. Augustine doth write but a liuely faith being wrought in our hearts by the said word of God and by the operation of the holy ghost beleeuing Gods promise of his mercy in Christ is the instrumentall cause in vs whereby onely wee receiue our iustification without the merite of our workes and yet being iustified we are most boundē to walke in all good works as much as it shall please God to giue vs grace thereunto for the which we ought to sue by cōtinuall most heartie prayer Which our doctrine you may see to bee most contrarie to the wicked opinion of those against whom S. Augustine writeth in that place and that therefore it is most falsely and malitiously alleaged as against vs who by faith onely iustifying vs meane not to exclude the doing but the merites of our good workes which is no heresie wherewith these men would charge vs but the very truthe it selfe taught in the holy Scriptures and by the auncient godly fathers and learned doctors set down in the very same wordes which we do vse as hath bene before at large declared Of the conclusion of our conference the Pamphleters write thus At the last the Protestantes did make a doe as though some thing had bene wonne when in my soule I protest there was not but in any indifferent audience the aduerse Protestants had bene quite confounded For Master Campion and Sherwin too would haue sayde much more in defence of their cause but one of them by his Commissioners authoritie suddenly made an ende cutting them off from all further speache Thus they do write In deede when we had continued very long and the sunne shining vpon our faces in at the South windowes and the throng being very greate and by occasion of both the heate so intollerable that some of vs were fayne to go out of the chauncel to take breath and to returne againe and Master Campion and wee being nowe come to a very neare point of agreement in the question of iustification as is afore noted in the end of our conference we turning to Master Lieutenaunt sayde If it shall so please you let vs here make an ende With a good will sayd he and so we brake off And here is all the Commissioners authoritie which they speake of that wee or any of vs did take vpon vs. And thus ended our conference with Campion the iudgement of the trueth of their or our reportes whereof wee doe leaue vnto God and to those who were present thereat Surely we by our notes set downe whiles our cōference was yet fresh in memorie and by sundry conferences amongst our selues sithen and with other also who were there present yea and by diligent perusing of the pamphlets written against vs haue endeuoured to set downe all poyntes that were dealt with in our sayd conference with as much trueth concerning the substance of the matter as our diligence and memory and the remembrance of other also could possibly attayne vnto Alexander Nowell William Daiie ¶ The three last dayes conferences had in the Tower with Edmund Campion Iesuite the 18 23 and 27. of September 1581. collected and faithfully set downe by M. Iohn Feilde student in Diuinitie Nowe perused by the learned men themselues and thought meete to be published Ianuarij 1. 1583. ⧠To the Christian Reader grace and peace THou hast here gentle Reader a true report of the whole substance of the conferences had in the Tower the last three dayes faythfully gathered out of the notes of diuers that wrote there and afterwarde perused by the learned men them selues and nowe lastly published by authoritie If any man be inquisitiue why they were set forth no sooner he may vnderstande that being priuate conferences it was thought not much requisite to make thē publikely knowen neither had they bin now set forth if the importunitie of the aduersaries by their sundry vntrue and contrary reportes made and scattered amongst their fauourites had not euen perforce drawen thē forth If Campions answeres be thought shorter thē they were thou must knowe that he had much wast speach which being impertinent is nowe omitted although I protest nothing is cut off from the weight and substance of the matter for of that I made conscience and had speciall regarde Againe if the repliers speaches seeme to be more ample it is because their authorities then alleadged onely in Greeke or Latine are nowe at large put downe both in Greeke Latine and English But for the arguments and answeres I was euen religious faythfully to reporte them as they were Wherein I appeale to all the hearers in Gods sight to whose grace I commit thee Iohn Feilde ⧠A remembrance of the conference had in the Tower with Edmunde Campion Iesuite by William Fulke and Roger Goade Doctours in Diuinitie the 18. of September 1581. as followeth AFter that Master D. Fulke had made a godly prayer for direction in that action that it woulde please God to confirme the faithfull and to confounde the obstinate and wilfull that Campion denying to pray with them had superstitiously all to be crossed himselfe Master D. Fulke beganne with this preface in effect D. Fulke Where as there hath bene some proceeding with you before and we are come by order to the thirde chapter of your booke where you slaunder our Church of Englande the whole Church of God for the definition of the Catholike Church for that we define it so as it shoulde be inuisible we come to prooue both by the Scriptures and Fathers that it is inuisible But this I woulde haue knowen vnto you that our
and to morowe whole the same man but not the same in substance of his body and blood Goade Well seeing you haue none other answere I will leaue this argument and commit it to the iudgement of the learned to iudge of your answere Fulke Thus I will proue that Christ is not present in his naturall body in the Sacrament Whatsoeuer is in the sacrament is voyd of sense or insensible But Christ is not insensible Ergo Christ is not in the Sacrament Camp Your maior and your minor are both vntrue in some sense Fulke This is your olde shift to trouble the hearers vnderstanding with proofe of both partes that you might not be espied in the poynt of controuersie Campion That you say vnsensible it is true if you meane the spirituall grace which is not subiect to sense Fulke I meane by insensible voyde of life or sense Campion Then I deny your maior Fulke I proue it out of Epiphanius lib. Anchorato Campion Reade the place Fulke The wordes be these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Campion What worde builde you vpon Fulke I haue read the wordes where he sayth it is insensible if you vnderstand it Campion You might haue brought the Latine booke Fulke Then you would haue cauiled that it was not rightly translated but you were best confesse your ignorance Campion I pray you helpe me Fulke If you vnderstand it your selfe I neede not Campion I vnderstand Latine better then Greeke Yet I trust I haue Greeke ynough to answere you withall Reade it in Latine Fulke Nay I will reade it in English that other men may vnderstand it as well as you For we see what our father tooke in his handes as it is contained in the Gospel that he arose at supper and tooke these things And after he had giuen thankes he said This of me is that And we see that it is not equall nor like neither to the incarnate image nor to the inuisible deitie nor to the lineamēts of his members For this thing is of long shape or rowle fashion and voyd of sense as concerning power And yet hee woulde say through grace This of mine is that and no man doth discredit the saying Camp You lose time we should not credit our eyes but faith What haue you gotten by this place Epiphanius saith none must discredit the presence of Christ in the Sacrament because it is a long white thing Fulke You vnderstand not the place Campion The meaning is wee must not credite sense but faith you haue gained nothing by this place Fulke Yes more then you would willingly afford First that the sacramētal bread in that time was not such a round thin cake as you vse in your Masse but a rowle of bread Secondly that the sacramēt was not equal with Christ and thirdly that it was an insensible thing void of life hauing not so much as that power of sense Campion He sayeth that we should not credit our sight but faith we must beleeue Christ to be present Fulke As Christ hath sayd and meaneth Campion That which I see is voyde of sense it is against your selfe it teacheth vs to beleeue faith Fulke You know not the argumēt of the booke nor of the place Campion Yes as well as you Fulke Then shewe it afore this company you that will challenge the whole Church of England and make profession of vniuersall knowledge Camp I wil answere any challenge I haue made Fulke Yea euen as you doe this Shewe vs the argument which the Doctor handleth in this place if you can Campion I haue sayd you are not able to reply Fulke Yes if you wil shew the argument I will replie Campion You do not Fulke I do not therefore I cannot I wil first shew the argumēt of the place he speaketh of images namely he sheweth how man is made after Gods image yet is not equall with God although Christ being the image of the Father is equal with him This he sheweth by example of the sacramēt which is the image of Christ in such sort as man is the image of God For it is not equal with Christ nor like vnto him either concerning his humanitie or deitie but a mere insensible thing as that which hath no power of life whereas Christ is all sensible all of power all incomprehensible concerning his Godhead Campion Reply against mine answere if you can The exterior forme or colour which we see is that which he sayth to be insensible Fulke He speaketh not of colour hee speaketh of that which Christ calleth his body Is the exterior forme called the bodie of Christ Is the colour of bread the image of Christ Epiphanius sayeth that of which Christ sayde This is my body is voyde of sense Therefore he sayth the whole Sacrament or whatsoeuer is contained in it is insensible Campion That is Christ is not seene but vnder the exterior forme or colour For no substāce cā be seene Are not you Doctor Fulke and yet I see nothing but your colour and exterior forme I wil abide by this that the substāce of any thing can not be seene Fulke I will not vouchesafe to replie vpon this answere too childish for a Sophister Camp You are very imperious You come I trowe to pose me as a Grammar scholer and to take me vp with checke at your pleasure I know no cause why I shoulde take it at your handes I am the Queenes prisoner and not yours Fulke I would you were the Queenes true subiect Goade Whatsoeuer is naturally present in the Sacrament is beneath vpon earth But Christ touching his body is not beneath vpon earth Ergo Christ touching his body is not naturally present in the Sacrament Campion I deny your minor Goade Christ touching his bodily presence is in heauen and onely in heauen therefore not vpon earth Campion I deny your Antecedent it is partly true and partly false ordinarily he is in heauen but miraculously his body also is in earth Goade I will ease you of your distinction Christ is no way present on earth touching his body Therefore neither ordinarily nor yet miraculously Answere to the argument briefly Campion As briefe as you wil. He is some way present vpon earth touching his body Proue your antecedent Goade I proue it thus If Christ touching his bodily presence be any way present vpō earth then he is to be sought vpon earth But he is not to be sought vpon earth Ergo no way present vpon earth Campion I deny your Minor Hee is some way to be sought vpon earth in the Sacrament but not by his ordinary presence Goade Mine argument is against all distinction Campion Will you not giue me leaue to distinguish Goade I say he is no way bodily present on earth which vtterly taketh away your distinction And I proue it by the Apostles reason Colos. 3. 1. Si consurrexistis cum Christo. c. If ye be risen together with Christ seeke those things that are
labijs charitatis meae And againe Verte sermonem meum in fraudem Do you thinke this speach proceeded of the holy Ghost Nay rather howsoeuer it displease you to heare of the matter it proceeded froÌ„ a prophane spirit as I haue said to charge the holy ghost with fraud to pray for such an effect that Holofernes might be taken with her loue snared with her kisses Camp There be no such wordes in the booke Charke Here you are manifestly ouertaken for they are worde for worde in the 9. Chapter and after your translations the vulgar and Vatablus Camp Is that to be esteemed fraude which the holy Ghost deuiseth Is it fraud to deceiue the deuill blame you her who did that she did to a good end and for the deliuery of the Church Char. What dealing is this Euen now he denied the words now finding them strong against his cause he would auoid them with a distinction of good intents to iustifie bad parts Thus you Papists hold against the word of God that we may do euill that good may come of it No Campion Gods spirit is alwayes like it selfe It is not agreeing with the maiestie of the spirit of God for any woman to pray that a stranger should be taken with the snare of his eyes looking vpoÌ„ her or that she may deceiue by lies This story therfore this practise proceded not froÌ„ the holy ghost Camp It is a shame for you to bring that example She desireth God that it will please him to turne the wickednes of Holofernes to the deliuerie of his people She prayeth not as you say that he should sinne Charke She doth pray for it in plaine words and set out her selfe in sumptuous apparell and ornaments to that purpose It is a shame for you Campion to mainteine any such absurditie and againe to deny and misconster the manifest wordes of that you would haue Canonicall scripture We stand before the face of God for the maintenance of his truth and giue such honour therunto that we acknowledge with our harts coÌ„fesse with our mouths that it is perfect full and sufficient and that there is no prophanation in it but you would haue that to be matched with holy scripture which is far vnworthy that honor What say you to the argument the place Let him be taken with the snare of his eies in me turne my speach into deceit or fraud This is a praier for successe in a matter of sinne most vnseemly for the holy ghost Camp I receiue this booke first because the Nicene couÌ„cill hath allowed it then I say further that this was her meaning that whereas God had giueÌ„ Holofernes ouer to fleshly lust that he might be taken with the loue of his eies towards her to be besotted with her yâ— she might the better performe her determinate purpose she prayeth that God will turne his sinne to the deliuery of his distressed people And what doth she commit worthy of blame in this Charke This is not only worthy of blame but also to be condemned as sinfull and sauouring of a prophane spirite that shee prayeth God to blesse her lyes and falshood her tentations and allurements to lust For the Lord hath appointed good wayes for good purposes and for the performance of that his worke he needed not her deceit For as Iob saith God needeth not any mans lie or any mans fraude Which is also true of the fraude and dangerous allurements mentioned in that chapter Camp What Chapter what Chapter Charke The ninth Chapter Reade and acknowledge the words you haue denied Here Campion read in his owne booke saying he perceiued we builded vpon our owne tâ—…slation Camp Well this is mine answere It was not truely and formally fraude but materially in the formall act fraude as for example when the people of the Iewes were commanded to steale from the Egyptians it was in the act theft but not formally theft So Abrahanis intent to kill his childe was to do murther in the act but formally it was no murther Charke You woulde nowe in steade of a short and schoolelike answere drawe me to a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the place in hande to the examination of newe matters Therefore to take you where you will needes be I say the Hebrewe worde hath not that signification that it shoulde import theft but a spoyle which was iust and commanded of God as after a victorie or for a rewarde of their labours seruice in Egypt therefore no theft But this fraude is another thing So the first example is vnlike proueth nothing no more do the rest For Abrahams act was no murther nor intent of murther but a duetiful obedience and seruice to God who had expresly commanded it Lastly you can not thinke that the Magistrate in taking the life of a transgressor or taking away yâ— head of a traytor is a murtherer No this duetie of iustice is layd vpon him by his office from God and can not but ignorantly be called murther And such was the warrant for Abraham in his office Camp I meane killing as it respecteth the taking away of life and no otherwise Charke How do you confound the speciall with the general All murther is the taking away of life but all taking away of life is not murther To kill and to take away life from the wicked by the sworde of iustice is iust and in no respect to carry the name of murther which is euermore euill Walker Concilium Laodicenum The Councill of Laodicea hath left out Toby Iudith the booke of Wisdome Ecclus Baruch Maccabees Esra the third and fourth and in the newe Testament Luke the Apocalyps these are the wordes Quae autem oporteat legi in authoritatem recipi haec sunt Genesis Exodus c. But those which ought to be read receiued for authenticall are these Genesis Exodus c. Where the forenamed bookes are omitted Camp The Laodicene Councill was particular and not generall And againe it reckeneth vp those bookes that were vndouted and not douted of in that part of the world But what maketh this to proue that they were douted of of that Catholike Church They were douted of in that Church or in that part of the Church Ergo they were douted of of the whole Church How holdeth this Therefore it is plaine that these bookes were not doubted of in that whole Church For the same Nicene Council accepteth Iudeth as Hierome testifieth in the preface to Iudeth Further because the Church of Rome approueth them it followeth not that we should dout of them Walker Then you confesse that the Council set not downe al that we should receiue And where you make the Councill particular it was prouinciall and further was confirmed by the sixth generall Councill holden at Trullo Constantine being president as Bartholomaeus Caranza writeth fol. 71. and therfore we may with them leaue out of the Canon Tobie Iudeth the
versatu◅ fides circa quod In what and about what is fayth occupied Camp Subiectum fidei The subiect of faith is man to whom God hath giuen the gift of fayth and thereupon man is denominate faythfull Walker Doth man consist of one part or more Camp Man doth consist of bodie and soule Walker Whether doe I receyue fayth into my bodie or soule chiefly Camp Fayth is receyued into the soule by the instrument of the bodie Walker What part of the soule is it receyued by For the soule hath diuers potentias faculties Receyue we it per memoriam voluntatem or intellectum by the memorie will or vnderstanding Campion I answere the soule doth receiue it per intellectum by vnderstanding illumined by fayth because that part was properly corrupted by errour Walker Why then Intellectus humanus is subiectum fidei in quo versatur and so intellectu nos cognoscimus deum Mans vnderstanding is the subiect in which faith is and so by the vnderstanding we know God Camp Intellectu illuminati per fidem cognoscimus I grant we know God our vnderstanding being illumined by fayth Walker And what now is obiectum fidei The obiect of faith Camp Obiectum fidei is truth inspired from God Walker Whether it be inspired or no Truth is Obiectum still Aeterna veritas est deus ergo Deus est obiectum fidei promissio Euangelij Gods worde and his trueth is the obiect of fayth and so sayth Thomas of Aquine one of your owne doctours Camp It is no obiect to me till I looke to it God as he is to be knowen is the obiect of fayth and as hee is to bee loued of charitie Walker It is true but God is incomprehensible and wee knowe so farre of him as he hath reuealed of himselfe as in creating to be Almightie in gouerning to be wise in preseruing to be true and helping to be good and in his promises to be sure and true and so much he hath reuealed of himselfe And this to apprehend is sufficient to saluation Camp To apprehend these things effectually so that we also obey his commandements and not onely to grant them to be true but also to apply these things to our selues through the passion of Christ this is saluation and sufficient Walker Hact enus conuenit Hitherto we agree But Paul Rom. 4. writeth Non haesitans fide nititur promissione Not doubting in fayth and leaning vpon the promise So that there were two things the promise which must be beleeued that it is true and the power of God that he is able to performe Camp Concedo I grant it And that made the fayth of Abraham to be fruitfull and meritorious Walker What meritorious But that is Perergon I will come neerer to the matter You will graunt likewise that hope hath suum subiectum obiectum her subiect and obiect Camp Yea that I will that it is in the same soule of man but more properly in voluntate affectu then in Intellectu in the will and affection then in the vnderstanding Walker That is verie true Nowe tell me what is Obiectum spei The obiect of hope Camp The good of the life to come Walker But what was the obiect especially of Abrahams hope Camp The same that is common to all other men but seorsum the comming of Christ the Messias promised to him and his seede after him Walker What commoditie is promised to vs in Christ Campion Saluation which is to haue eternall life with Christ. Walker This promise being beleeued and knowen by faith is looked for by hope euery Christian mā hath a great desire to this saluation promised Either he hath or shoulde haue as Saint Paul Cupio dissolui esse cum Christo I desire to be loosed and to be with Christ. Camp When God hath enlightened his heart by charitie then he hath that desire stedfast Walker Well then I wil leaue the obiect of hope and come to the subiect of charitie What is the subiect of charitie Camp The affection of man Walker What is the obiect Camp It is God as he is beloued quatenus appetitur propter se. Walker Uery good then you see the foundation and causes with the whole order of our iustification what neede all the worlde haue any more but first to beleeue these things next to looke for that which we hope for thirdly to loue him who hath made vs this promise and hath giuen vs these great benefites Nowe see whether we are iustified by faith alone or faith hope and charitie But I leaue the persecuting of this to Master Charke Camp I graunt that this is the order of our iustification wherein these doe ioyntly con◅re and worke together Charke You may not auoyde the point and issue of the question as you did in the forenoone which is that Faith only iustifieth It is a chiefe question and you can not carry the matter so vprightly betwixt the olde popery and the newe but we shall easily finde you out you say faith onely doeth not iustifie but with faith hope and charitie also are requisite as causes and merits of our iustification This is your cunning and newe Poperie to mention onely hope and charitie yet vnder these wordes you carry the olde Poperie which addeth popish shrift penance pilgrimages and other satisfactions all which you would match with the death of Christ if you might recouer your kingdome But I haue to proue against you that Faith onely doeth iustifie without these merits and workes which you adde as though the righteousnesse of Christ were not inough Camp I denie it for you haue it not in all the word of God that faith onely doeth iustifie Charke Surely if you acknowledge any doctrine to be true in all the Scripture this of iustification by faith onely will be proued most trus if any plaine this will appeare most plaine And thus I proue it Euery doctrine the substance and sense whereof is conteined in Scriptures is true But the substance and sense of this doctrine Faith only doeth iustifie is conteined in Scriptures Therefore this doctrine Faith onely doeth iustifie is true Camp I answere that this proposition Faith onely doeth iustifie is not to be founde in all the worde of God and therefore I denie the Minor Charke I haue affirmed in my Minor that the substance and sense of this proposition Faith only doeth iustifie is conteined in the Scriptures For proofe hereof I haue in the worde of God eleuen places all negatiue excluding works in the matter of our saluation Namely Rom. chap. 9. verse 11. where the Apostle saith Not of workes Againe chap. 11. ver 6. Not of works Also Galat. 2. ver 16. Not of workes Moreouer Rom. 4. 6. Without workes Chap. 3. ver 21. Without the Lawe And so in the rest Camp Let me answere them Here the rest of the places were demaunded by them that wrote and by others Charke Turne further to these places
a false and grosse interpretation and thus I proue it If your distinction be good then there is either a third couenant or the couenant of the lawe is mixed with the couenant of the Gospell But no man will say that there is a third couenant and the Apostle proueth that in the work of our iustificatiō the couenant of the law doth no way participate with the couenāt of fayth therefore your distinction saying as it is a burden is not good and your interpretation absurd and false Camp I answer to the Minor that the law is considered two maner of wayes The couenant of the lawe as it is of the lawe is no way mixed with the couenant of the Gospell but as it is the couenant of the lawe eternall of the lawe morall of the lawe of nature it is mixed with the new testament Christ hath renued it in the lawe of charitie Moses gaue it one way and Christ another Moses the lawe maker and Christ the law giuer Praeceptum nouum do vobis vt diligatis inuicem I giue you a newe commandement that ye loue one another Charke What absurde speaches are these to make a substantiall distinction of the lawe in regard of the minister or of the time The morall lawe and commandement of God is euermore the same in substance Camp I vnderstand not what you meane I say it is mixed but as it is mixed it is not called Moses law but y◠law of Christ who gaue it more perfectly c Charke Againe I say this is absurde for the lawe of God was alway the lawe of God and therefore the same and exacteth the same obedience which because no man can performe no man can liue thereby Camp You are still gathering absurdities Charke I must gather them where you scatter them For what materiall difference can there be made of one and the same thing The second couenant offereth life onely by faith in Christ the former onely by workes and these cannot be confounded as you confound and huddle them together Thus your answeres are from the arguments Camp My answeres are to the purpose What is it that you would haue more of me Charke Is your answere to the purpose that mixeth confoundeth the two couenants which are so opposite by the Apostles place alledged that he which cleaueth to the one can receiue nothing by the other For the couenant of the lawe can beare no transgression and to iustifie vs the couenant of fayth needeth no satisfaction or workes on our part Christ hauing most fully wrought and satisfied for vs. Therefore it is the pride of man to thinke and the errour of man to teach that the righteousnesse of Christ is not sufficient without addition of our righteousnesse Camp Well shewe me but that negatiue sola onely in all the Scriptures Charke This is a new matter I woulde haue the olde first satisfied Camp Shew it me can you not shew it Charke Seeing you would shift off the former argument by crauing a newe I am contented to proue that exclusiue tearme which you call negatiue Whatsoeuer excludeth all other causes in iustification that remayneth a sole cause Fayth excludeth all other causes in iustification Faith therefore remaineth a sole and onely cause Camp Proue your Minor Charke The absolute negatiues so often repeated in the Scripture Not of workes Without workes Not of the law Without the law do plainly exclude all other causes Camp Will you by this argument exclude al causes besides fayth Then with good workes you will also exclude the mercy of God What is your meaning Charke What a vanitie is there in this question Understande you not that I speake onely of causes in vs excluding no former causes as the eternall decree and loue of God the obedience and righteousnesse of Christ Camp Proue that Sola fides onely fayth is in the scripture Charke I haue proued it and why doe you not answere the argument Camp What argument would ye haue me answere Charke The last All other causes in vs are excluded by the worde of God where it is sayde so often Not of workes Not of the lawe therefore sola fides fayth onely remaineth by many testimonies of the Scriptures Campion This fides is Christian obedience and hath good workes Charke I graunt as the good tree hath good fruite necessarily so fayth hath good workes but these good workes though they be not separated from fayth are yet separated from being any cause of iustification with fayth As light though it bee not separated from fire yet it is separated from the force of burning for the heate burneth and not the light of fire Campion But where proue you that sola onely is in the Scripture Charke My argument hath fully and plainly proued it you neither will nor can answere it Therefore to proue it againe because the text Deut. 6. hath the negatiue Thou shalt serue no strange gods Christ Mat. 4. addeth the worde ONELY Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him ONELY shalt thou serue So we by the same warrant and worde do in this question of iustification take these words Not by works Not by the law to import as much as faith onely for al works whatsoeuer being excluded by these negatiue speaches faith alone remaineth Camp Why doth he say Thou shalt worship by fayth onely Char. I had hedged you in before that you should not leape ouer to run at large in your bie questions I sayd Christ Mat. 4. thus alledged against the tempter Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serue This negatiue ONLY is not in Moses yet added by Christ for interpretations sake to expound words importing it as I haue said before so do we in the matter of iustification finding all righteousnes by workes or by the lawe so oftentimes excluded doe conclud thereupon that fayth onely doth iustifie Camp The word adorabis doth of necessitie infer so much and therefore Christ doth well to expound it by onely But the worde iustifie doth not necessarily inferre the excluding of workes And therefore you do not well to inferre Faith only iustifieth Charke What do you not blush to bring this strange false distinction against a cleare truth of God Or wil you ouerthrow a maine pillar of Poperie for auoiding the force of one poore argument Doth the word adorabis exclude all other creatures and necessarily inforce that God alone must be worshipped Thē Cāpion condemneth al images all adoration of the crucifix all inuocation worshipping of saints For to adore or to worship sayth he importeth that adoration worship is due to God only so he excludeth all creatures frō worship euen the crucifix that they say must haue the adoration done to it which is due to Christ himself Camp What needeth all this it foloweth not which you say There is much differēce betwene to adore to reuerēce or serue For latria or to adore
is due to God onely and dulia to serue is that which I may yeeld to any Saint or creature Charke Yes the speach needeth and the argument foloweth For your verball distinction of Greeke wordes to deceiue English people is vnlearned and impious to saye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is for God onely which yet as I sayde you allowe to the bare image of Christ and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for Images Can all knowe and keepe a iust weight and measure in their deuotions giuing no more but iust 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to saintes To bee short the errour and vnlearnednesse of your distinction appeareth that not vnderstanding the vse and proper signification of the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you haue allowed it to be giuen to Images being a worde that noteth as base and as slauish bondage as any worde in the Greeke tongue so by your distinction the worshippers of the Church must be as bondmen to their Images Thus you see onely is gathered fitly of the negatiue and that your distinction is both false and also against your owne doctrine of Image worship Campion I saye it is gathered from both and the negatiue not sufficient alone but because of the matter speaking of God Charke Why then I perceiue you will borrowe of me for a neede Before you said Adorabis included onely nowe you come to me and say it is gathered also of the negatiue This is al I can desire Camp Fayth onely as it is a good worke ioyned with hope and charitie doeth iustifie Charke I woulde not haue you to abuse the companie in graunting fayth onely and yet you will expounde it Fayth not alone It is a straunge onely that is not alone Furthermore Fayth as it is a good woorke doeth not iustifie being alwayes imperfect but as it apprehendeth the righteousnesse of Christ which is perfect That is as it is a piece of obedience to the promise of God it doeth not iustifie but as it apprehendeth the precious promises Campion You are still charging mee with abusing the companie but if you will giue mee leaue I will declare howe fayth is a woorke There is an habite which is called Fides and the act of this habite within a man is credere to beleeue an act interior proceeding from this habite An act exterior proceeding from this habite is to professe this fayth consonant to the Apostle With the heart I beleeue and with the mouth I confesse Nowe I saye to beleeue is fyrst a good woorke and to professe this fayth is also a good woorke As to giue an almes to fast to doe penance c. and this fayth Abraham had And your saying is contrary to Saint Iames. Abraham pater noster nonne ex operibus iustificatus est offerens filium suum Deo Abraham our father was he not iustified by woorkes offering vp his sonne Charke My saying is not contrary to Saint Iames but your obiection is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 farre from the question in hande Wee dispute what be the causes of saluation and you runne out to the notes and effects of him that is iustified Campion Let me oppose Is it not reason that I shoulde oppose Charke Yes when you are thereto appoynted and you shall fynde enowe to answere you Yet because you haue so often chalenged vs to answere you an argument though I come not with any commission to suffer you to proue your erronious doctrine I will notwithstanding suffer you to oppose and make an argument in this matter First giuing the companie to vnderstande that you woulde deceiue them with an opinion that our aduantage is great in replying but it is not so If your cause were good and your skill great you might make it harder to reply then to answere For the answerer may with a worde deny the proposition and so soone take from the replyer all his weapons But make your argument Here Campion paused long before he coulde frame his argument Whereupon Master Charke sayde a Syllogisme Campion a Syllogisme Yet staying longer Master Charke sayde We shall haue it anone Camp He that was iustified for beleeuing was iustified by a good worke But Abraham was iustified by beleeuing Ergo Abraham was iustified by a good woorke The Maior is out of Saint Iames Chapter 3. Suppleta est Scriptura dicens c. Charke Proue your Maior in the sense we dispute of and I wil answere you to two other Syllogismes Camp It is easely proued Charke Howe can you proue it out of Saint Iames that fayth is a good woorke When Saint Iames sayeth Abraham was iustifyed by good woorkes his meaning is that Abraham is declared and knowen to be iust according to that phrase Wisedome is iustified of her children Againe all the people and Publicans iustified God Campion I will none of your interpretations the question is cleare with me Charke I woulde fayne haue of your answeres so they were to the purpose of the argument Campion Proceede and proue somewhat for your cause Charke I haue proued more then you can answere And because you generally slaunder vs that our doctrine concerning this and other principall poyntes of religion is against the Doctours although the Scriptures bee large full and sufficient ynough and are the onely touchstone for the tryall of sounde and true doctrine yet I will not sticke a little to followe you in this Cyprian Basill Ambrose Theodoret Hierome Gennadius all these Greeke and Latine Fathers doe flatly and fully teache that we are saued by fayth onely Campion Bring mee one of them and I will answere you Charke There is a notable place out of Basill 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where of purpose disputing of humilitie among other notes hee sheweth that wee must attribute all to the grace and ryghteousnesse of God who alone is our glorie our wisedome and our iustification Thereupon falling into this question hee sayeth a man must acknowledge him selfe voyde of true righteousnesse and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is a man must knowe that hee is iustified by onely fayth in Christ. I English it to your hande because you deale not with the Greeke Campion I acknowledge your places and yet your doctrine is vtterly newe For the Fathers when they vrge that doctrine they dyd it in respect they had to deale with Iewes and Infidels and Pagans And further by faith they meant Christian religion excluding Paganisme and not excluding charitie and good workes Charke Our doctrine newe and yet the auncient Doctours teache it I aske with what conscience or iudgement you can saye it Dyd the Apostle writing to the Romanes to the Galathians to the Ephesians Churches so effectually called and reclaymed from Gentilisme that he termeth thē Saintes and brethren and affirmeth that they are no more darkenesse but light in the Lorde Did the Apostle I say writing to them deale as against Iewes and Pagans I maruayle you blush not at so fowle a shift and so palpable an errour But will you
not vouchsafe the Doctours an answere shall they be sent away before they haue receiued their answere Camp They wrote vpon occasion against an heretike hauing affiance in workes Charke Be it so then they write aswell against Papists hauing affiance in workes Camp They had affiance in workes done without Christ and are therefore reproued by the Fathers Charke This is onely sayde to shake them all off with one false distinction Agayne it was a straunge occasion you speake of that made the Fathers write an vntrueth But rather you are straunge to expounde them directly against their wordes saying Faith onely doeth iustifie I could here helpe you with a better answere which the better learned on your side vse to this obiection Camp It was the heresie that most troubled Christians in the Primitiue Church Charke This is a newe question and in doubt But howe will you euer bee able to proue that the Apostle disputing for iustification by fayth against iustification by woorkes excludeth onely Paganisme Answere this Camp I haue answered Charke In deede you haue stil somwhat to say but not to answere that point of the argument which most woundeth your cause Therefore a Syllogisme against your shift The Apostle excludeth the morall Lawe from iustifying Therefore your distinction is wast Camp But he excludeth not charitie and good workes Charke What a But is that Is there any charitie or be there any good workes not conteyned vnder the morall and eternall Lawe of God If the deedes of the morall Lawe be shut out from the causes of our iustification by S. Paul what doore can you open to let them in againe Camp I say charitie and good workes are not excluded Charke And I say this is still to begge the question and not to answere the Argument So your doctrine is sufficiently ouerthrowen Walker Besides a great sort of places that master Charke hath brought Sadolet one of your owne hath a plaine place in Epist. ad Rom. Abraham attulit tantum fidem non sua opera And againe Quantum quisque affert de sua iustitia tantum defert de diuina beneficentia c. Camp It is but lost time that you you alleadge Sadolet Hee was but a man of late yeres whose credite is not to be set against the determination of the whole Church besides his meaning was that man should not trust in his owne workes Walker You will allowe no man neither those that are against you nor with you But if he had dealt as soundly in other things as in this he had bene to be striued withall He sheweth by an apt similitude that if a man take a Potte hauing some troubled water in it and goeth to the cleare water to fill it the troubled foule water in the potte doeth not become cleare but rather troubleth and defileth the water which was cleare Euen so the more we bring of our owne the lesse we attribute to God and the lesse we receiue from God Wee must bring nothing of our owne to God It is troubled water when we mingle our workes and righteousnes with Gods Camp Let the similitude be rehearsed It is an apt similitude He that commeth to be iustified by Christ must not bring troubled water but cleare that is those good workes that he did before and those prayers that he made before his morall deedes his almes his fasting c. For all the morall workes that are done before they are troubled water but those we doe afterwards they are made cleare in the Passion of Christ although they be not in all respects perfect Charke I wil so proue that good workes haue no place in iustification that you shall not be able to answere and because the Doctors can haue no answere I will returne to Scripture Sanctification and iustification are two sundry things Therefore good workes the fruites of sanctification haue no place in iustification Camp Make your Syllogisme Charke Whatsoeuer is an effect of sanctification that followeth is not a cause of iustification that went before But charitie and other good woorkes are effectes of sanctification which followeth Therfore they be no causes of iustification which goeth before Answere if you can Camp I deny that they are onely of sanctification they are of both Charke They be disparata handled by the Apostle as diuers things also the one some degrees before the other Therfore you doe euil to confound priora posteriora the effectes of the latter with the causes of the former Camp Is this the argument that can not be answered I say whosoeuer is iustified is also sanctified and so good workes proceede from both Charke Let all men marke the absurditie of this speache If good workes proceede from sanctification and sanctification from iustification howe can good workes goe before them both as a cause seeing they come after both as an effect Thus you are entoyled Here was an open misliking of the answeres and some speach of making an ende Then M. Charke saide I woulde faine vse one argument more to turne Campion out of all his shiftes and to let the company vnderstand his weakenes and especially the weakenes of his cause Campion Let vs heare what argument this is whereof you make such bragges Charke The authoritie and trueth of scriptures for my cause maketh me so confident Therefore marke the argument well We are iustified by Imputation onely Therefore by faith onely Camp Nego Maiorem I deny your Maior Charke I proue the Maior if you so call it Christ died onely by Imputation Therefore we liue onely by Imputation and are consequently iustified by faith onely Camp I deny the argument Charke I proue it by Analogie Christ died onely through the imputation of our sinne Therefore if we liue we liue onely by the imputation of his righteousnes And therfore to say that we liue by any imputation of our owne good workes is asmuch as to say that Christ died by imputation of some of his owne sinne For this analogie and proportion betwixt the causes of Christes death and the causes of our life doth necessarily hold and must diligently be obserued Camp I answere to your similitude Charke If it be a similitude it is by good analogie and demonstration of trueth out of the scripture It is you that abuse the hearers with similitudes that are not similia my argument is demonstratiue Camp I answere then to your analogie So farre as the scripture doth intend it holdeth like as Christ did beare our sinnes so we haue in vs the iustice of Christ. The righteousnes that we haue is giuen vs by Christ. Christ had our sinnes by imputation onely because hee was not capable of sinnes inherent But we are capable of iustice inherent which Christ doth giue vs and therefore in vs we haue the iustice of Christ both by imputation and also inherent giuen by him And therefore it is called the iustice Non qua ipse iustus est sed qua nos iustos fecit Not