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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A96167	An answer to W.R. his narration of the opinions and practises of the churches lately erected in Nevv-England. Vindicating those Godly and orthodoxall churches, from more then an hundred imputations fathered on them and their church way, by the said W.R. in his booke. Wherein is plainely proved, 1. That the grounds of his narration are sandie and insufficient. 2. That the maner of his handling it, unloving and irregular. 3. That the matter of it, ful of grosse mistakes & divers contradictions. 4. That the quotations extremely wrested, and out of measure abused. 5. That his marginall notes impertinent and injurious. / By Thomas Welde, Pastour of the Church of Roxborough in Nevv-England. This is licensed and entred according to order.	Weld, Thomas, 1590?-1662.	1644 (1644)	Wing W1262; Thomason E3_18; ESTC R2769	70,175	76

in Christ Jesus leade thee by the hand into all truth and peace Thine T. W. The Reader may take a short view of some Particulars in W. R. his Narration As they are made to appeare in his Booke by the Page and Line as followeth Vnfound passages Vntrue Relations Falsified quotations Page Line Page Line Page Line 4 25 1 15 17 6 5 20 2 21 18 20 6 7. 24. 37 5 20 19 14. 24 7 5. 15 6 23 20 24 8 28 20 3. 32. vlt. 24 35 9 whole page 25 2 last 25 18. 23 18 26 39 10 25 23. 31. 40 24 39 37 whole pag.   26 5 29 17. 28 38 whole pag.   32 3 last 36 28 51 whole pag.   57 16 40 15 56 9 58 1. 2. 27 52 1. 9. 26 57 5. 10. vlt. 59 22 53 2. 11. 22 59 6. 33 60 23 c. 54 3. 10 60 11 61 38 58 33 62 11. 25. ad fin 62 11. 25. ad fin 61 21. 26 66 4 last 63 1. 9 64 1 9. 25 67 6. 12. 22 64 14 65 13 ad finem 68 4. 7. 12 67 25. 18 There are some things in W. R. his Narration that carry a face of contradiction I propound them to his review in his owne words sense and pages Thus they stand That Sacraments are to be Administred to the Members of the same Church only Narration p. 35. Art 5. vide p. 38. Art 4. The Churches do and may mutualiy partake each with other in the Sacraments p. 37. Art 31. p. 10. Art 7 That They conceive some to bee true Christians whether they be in Church estate or no. p. 33. Art 1. Whosoever becomes not a setled member of a Church they account him wicked prophane and a gracelesse person p. 29. Art 1. p. 12. Art 12. He saith concerning the judgements practises of the Churches generally in New-England That They may and doe constitute new Churches without the consent of the Christian State p. 20. last line p 49. Art 2. latter end of the Marg. Before they doe enter into Church estate notice is first given thereof to the Magistrate or the Christian State p. 21. Art 4. And by a law of the State none can enter without such knowledge given to the Magistrate p. 21. Art 2. That They may and doe set up new Churches in the midst of and against the mind of the Churches p. 49. Art 2. and latter end of Margent Notice is given thereof to the neighbouring Churches that such as please may be present p. 21. Art 4. That The Church-Covenant is that whereby all the Members of the Society are united to Christ p. 12. Art 1. Many are within the Church-covenant that are not within the Covenant of Grace and so not united to Christ p. 14. Art 3. That The Churches of New-England are of one and the same way in Discipline without any materiall difference p. 1. Art 1. They are not of the same way but sometimes of 2. contrary waies sometimes of 3. severall waies at once and that in very materiall points p. 10. Art 8. p. 16. Art 8. p. 13. Art 3. and 4. p. 27. Art 11. Objection 1 But we in New-England goe different waies so the contradictions come from our selves not from him Answ No for We are all of the same way and differ not in any materiall point as himselfe plainely saith chap. 1. Art 1. 2 His Narration speakes what the Churches in New-England doe generally as Title p. 1. Now it is impossible that they can generally goe two wayes at once Objection 2 But our writers say so and hee speakes according to them Answ Then let him make this appeare and that will bee hard to doe for his quoted Authors speake the selfe same thing An Answer to VV. R. his Narration of the Opinions and Practises of the Churches lately erected in New-England An Answer to the PREFACE IT would grieve a tender heart to heare this man call God and his Conscience to witnesse how highly he honours and loves those that are in Church waies and by and by to assault with horrible untruths and bitter invectives the Churches of New-England whom God hath beene pleased to honour in the hearts of thousands of his pretious Saints which one would thinke hardly credible that any that goeth under the notion of honesty much lesse of godlinesse should venture to doe He blames the Brethren of the Independent way as he stiles them that were and are in London for breaking a solemne agreement to produce a narrative of their Doctrine and practise and yet did not yea would not perform● it 1. Some of us professe solemnely we never so much as heard of any promise therefore were farre enough from breaking it Answ why then doth W. R. lay it upon the Independent Brethren in London without exception 2. What was done by any of them herein was freely from themselves as I am informed by them that by some manifestation of their Judgements and practises they might cleare themselves from misapprehensions and mistakes so that if they did it not themselves were like to suffer most 3. This they made performance of in their late Apologie so farre as might satisfie in a rationall way but if hee expected more where lies the fault 4. If they did not this so soone as hee would have had them let him know the extreame distractions of these times and the publique service of some of these brethren who were imployed by the State for a good space together might justly hinder greater things then this Now see what little cause the Narratour had to cast such a blot on the names of his Honored Brethren as he calles them Hee saith Many w●re drawne aside their Churches and Ministry slighted neglected deserted yea contumeliously and scornefully reproached as Antichristian Babylonish false and Null c. Answ 1. Such contemptuous speeches reproachfull carriages cast upon our Brethren of the Churches here neither are or ever were allowed by us yea our owne examples practisings writings doe and we hope ever shall beare witnesse against such loose and lavish spirits and practises And can any man then justly impute them unto us Psal 11.3 May we not say with the Psalmist If the foundations be cast downe what hath the innocent done 2. They are not alone in these reproches our selves also are fellow-sufferers with them herein from divers Sectaries now in London whose usuall tones dialects these words he mentions are not the voyce of Independents That some of our way contrary to our promise and Pactions have impetously both in Pulpit and Presse laboured to promote the popular governement to make all men disrelish and abominate the Presbyterian way Answ 1 A sad complaint if true But to shew how farre from this spirit and practise we have beene consider first how loath wee were to appeare in the case who though we had bookes of this subject ready for the presse yet by joynt consent suppressed them

Art 10. ●sw Consider first 1 The Gifts Graces and abilitie of discerning that were in the Apostles above any Minister now living who as they were able to preach with lesse time of studie so to dispatch and turne over weighty businesse with more speede and dexterity then we are 2 The extraordinary wonderfull and visible stroke of God upon the spirits and hearts of men that heard Peter at that time the meeting the language their understanding of it Gods assistance of Peter and blessing on the word all extraordinary Such a day such a Sermon such effects as never were before nor like to be to the end of the world so the power of God was remarkable in their conversion so also in their expression and demonstration of it So that there needed little triall when God spake himselfe from Heaven Answer to CHAP. VI. HE reports to recite such things onely as most neede Answer and let the rest passe Art 1. 2. That we hold that Christ hath invested with all power any that are in Church-fellowship that though they be all illiterate yet they may make examine all their Officers unmake depose them when they see cause so to doe and preach expound and apply the word with all Authority yea and doe it without any ref●rence at all to their Officers as Officers when they have them ●nsw If I did delight in retorting I could say of these words as hee of Holland Ministers Apologie They are a meere Gull for almost so many words so many mistakes The Narratour should have done well first to have proved all the Churches and Ministers in New-England men out of their wits and voide of common sense and then hee might more easily have made the world beleeve they hold and practise such a congeries of absurdities and impossibilities For else many of them there being well known to bee learned godly and sober men no wise men will beleeve him that they can hold that 1. Illiterate men can examine Pastors fitnesse 2. Depose them at pleasure 3. Preach expound and apply the word with all authority 4. And that without any reference to their Officers at all 5. And which is m●st strange that Christ himselfe hath invested these illiterate ones with all power to doe all these things For 1. It is a received practise amongst us that when any combine into a Church there is one at least of them indued with able parts of humane and divine learning that either hath been a Minister in our native countrey or is fit to be one amongst them who usually and frequently preacheth to them after they are united So that al of them are not men illiterate ☜ and W. R. himselfe knowes this to be true for the Answer to the 32. quest 42. which is very page hee here quotes directly saith this in so many words 2. That those illiterate men do examine their Ministers abilities and that we hold they ought is another great mistake for so wee should put men upon a worke beyond their reach which were idle whereas the truth is that if the suffici●ncy of such men as they intend to call into office bee not well knowne to them they use to call in the helpe and assistance of Elders in other Churches to surveigh their abilities and to informe them therein that thereby as well as by their owne experience of them and discerning of their gifts they may be able to give in their suffrage for election when the time comes 3. For their unmaking and deposing them againe when they see cause Wee hold and professe it a thing most injurious to Jesus Christ himselfe in heaven to his Ministers on earth and such a thing as not only Christ will summon Churches at the great day to answer unto but our Churches there will also expect satisfaction from them for it if they should thus depose Ministers as he saith when they see cause unlesse Christ himselfe shall see good cause to allow their fact to be done according to the rules of his owne word Wee are so farre from holding this that wee protest against such practises And to shew how wary wee are in this point no Church dares trust her owne judgement but our manner is as his quoted Authour speakes Answer to 34. q. of p. 41. Our practise is in removall of Ministers to have counsell and assistance from sister Churches 4. Whereas he saith also That we hold that men illiterate should preach with all authority which is a worke and a taske for the ablest Ministers to performe is as farre from us as any of the other For though wee deny not but in some case some able judicious experienced Christians may humbly soberly when necessity requires as in the want of Ministers being invited thereunto dispence now and then a word of exhortation to their brethren This is farre enough from Preaching in an ordinary way with all Authority which are words of his owne put in without any ground 5. But for him to adde that we hold they may thus preach when they have Officers and that without any reference at all to them is extreamly contrary to our practise and furthest from the truth For this would directly crosse Christ his institution of calling Officers in his Church and make meere cyphers of them whose Office it is not onely to preach but to rule and governe the Assembly to open the doore of speech to any in the congregation and to shut it up by silence so that none may so much as speak without his allowance ☞ And this expression of his is contrary to his owne Narration in Art 8. where he saith That some of the Acts we ascribe to our Ministers in Office are to declare unto their people the minde of God and to moderate in Church-meetings yet here he speakes cleane contrary to himselfe and the truth also ☞ 6. For him to adde That wee hold that Christ hath invested these illiterate men with all power to doe all these things so farre beyond their power and all ordinary possibility contrary to all rule and to his owne institution is to put upon us one of the grossest absurdities that ever was heard of even to make Christ crosse himselfe and to be a patron of confusion in his owne house by investing them with all power to oppose his owne rules of Order Now let us see what grounds our Nartatour hath to lay all these charges against us You will thinke sure his proofes are strong or hee would never have ventured to blemish so many thousands of Gods faithfull I servants in such sore accusations as these True hee quotes many and that I might see his bottom I have surveied all the printed Authors in every page quoted ☞ and I solemnly professe it that none of these particulars rehearsed as hee hath laid them downe much lesse in them all will any of them beare him out and I desire the Reader to try whether

Verball declarations of the worke of Grace for if they be Object 3 subtile Hypocrites they will deceive you with golden words as Marg. Art 5. 1. It may and doth satisfie our owne consciences Answ if we do use all meanes we can to finde out by the rules of the word whether grace be in them or no it they yet deceive us it s their sin not ours 2. God who often takes the wise in their owne craft 1 Cor. 1.19 laies open such hypocrites while they seeke to deceive others as frequent experience hath shewen us in the very act of their triall 3. Those that are sound doe manifest the sweet smell of their graces by such declarations Therefore it is not bootlesse Object It seemes a thing impossible to such good soules as know not the time manner of their conversion or have forgotten it to give account thereof satisfyingly to a multitude seeing also their manner of inquirie is strict and the matter inquired into the spirituall soule points Answ 1. We wonder we confesse to see a Christian a Minister of God thus to speake If it seemes so impossible for some Christians to give an account of the worke of Grace in them Pet. 3.15 what meant Peter to direct all beleevers to bee alwaies ready to give an answer to every man of the hope that is in them If they must give this answer to all even to persecutors themselves as the Text intends of the grounds of their hope is it impossible that these good soules should render account to their godly brethren who in a loving way demande it and for their owne good too 2. What if they know not the time order manner of their conversion yet if they can give any evidence of Christ now in them by the workings of his Spirit for present though they know not how Christ came at first into them its sufficient Object If an account of their grace must be given were it not better to have a set and standing rule written and recorded without variation in all the Churches ibid. ●nswer Would he have us make a New-England Primer a set forme this were a way indeede to bring all to a formall course and to teach every one though no grace or experience at all of Christ in his heart to learne by rote this forme and then all were well W. R. was as we heard even now first for common praiers and then for Overtures and shewes and now you have him for standing formes You shall see him goe further anon are not your fingers singed enough yet with such formalities It s time to cease Obiect Through your strict examinations multitudes of our English in N. E. that were reputed godly are kept out of Church-Order and themselves and little ones little better then heathens Marg. on Art 6. ●●sw Many for want of examination of themselves and tryall by others that went in common view for sound ones possibly and that not without good cause upon due triall may be found too light when weighed in Gods ballance and its better for such to be discovered here then hereafter to their eternall ruine 2. Many doe keepe out of Church-Order upon sundry other grounds above said and out of choyce and not through strait examination 3 But that the non-admitted are esteemed by us or doe live like Heathens is an untrue and unsavory imputation Where we see any breathings of Christ in any we esteeme them as Christians we love them dearely and carry our selves accordingly to them and theirs though not yet in Church fellowship with us God himselfe is our record against such calumnies where wee see no grace as yet wrought we labour in all meeknesse to bring them to Christ and in meane time take Christian care of them and their little ones as those that may bee heires of the same grace with our selves doe men all this to heathens But why are men of differing opinions and men of harsh and rugged dispositions Object 7 though otherwise Godly kept out from your Churches Marg to Art 9. 1. If mens opinions be such as destroy faith or the power of holinesse Answer as many in New-England lately were though now layed prostrate by the light and power of the word or such as doe directly crosse and eradicave the fundamentalls of our Church Governement and the persons that hold these til opinions are factious and turbulent It 's no wonder though we be slow in admitting such as wee know will destroy either the power of godlinesse or our Churches peace but if they d●ffer onely in some inferiour points as you speake and be of sober spirits it 's known we admit such and live in peace together with them 2. Wee never knew men of sowre and cynicall dispositions naturally meerely for that if otherwise they appeare godly and labour against such distempers to be kept out of Church-fellowship amongst us But if any man deny the Church Covenant or doubt of it your Church doores Object 8 are shut for ever against him p. 11. end We pray you goods W. R. speake not against common sense Answ How can wee possibly admit him into our Church Covenant that denies the Church-Covenant can wee make him doe that he denies to doe Since Gods people must be a willing people Psal 110.3 Or if he doubts of the lawfulnesse of it is it lawfull for him to enter into it doubtingly or for us to offer it seeing whatsoever is not of faith is sinne Rom. 14. last But to say our Church doores are for ever shut against him is a speech as untrue as harsh for as we waite on God to afford and on him to receive light so we are as glad when he is informed therein are ready to open our Church doores wide to receive him Some other things more slight I passe by in his Marginalls on this Chap. for brevity the substance of all which may bee referred to some or other of these heads Answer to CHAP. IIII. HE saith Art 1. 2. 6. 7. That we account a publike vocall and expresse Covenant to be the onely absolute necessary constituting forme of a true Church without which no true Church nor true members but all 〈…〉 concubine● ●sw He utterly mistakes the subject of the question for those Authors hee quotes declare not what it is that makes a TRVE Church but a ●V●● congregationall Church as it is refined according to the platforme of the Gospel And to such a Church say they is required an explicite Covenant And that they doe intend only such a Church is plaine 1. Because there are in the description of that Church they meane such particulars as himselfe layes it downe Art 6. as can belong only to a pure Church as 1 That they walke in all the holy ordinances of God 2 According to the will of God 3 In one Congregation All which wee know every Church though true doth not ergo 2. If wee hold that to every true Church

of error delivered before all the people So as it is a scandall to the people a reproach to the Minister c. all this is his own addition Then for the other cited Author Answer to 32 q. 78 he deales more grosely with him then the former who is in a manner point-blanck against him yet hee boldly gives him up for an Author his words are these we never knew any Minister that did call upon the people thus to doe i. e. to propound questions and such calling upon them is farre from us some thinke the people have a liberty to aske a question upon very urgent and weighty cause none iudge the ordinary practise of it necessary but if not meekely and wisely carried inconvenient if not utterly unlawfull and therefore such asking of questions is seldome used in any in most Churches neere True it is in the times of the opinions some were bold in this kinde but these men are long since gone the Synod and Sermons have reproved this disorder so that a man may now live from one end of the yeere to another in these congregations and not heare any man opening his mouth in such kind of questions These the Authors words ☞ Now good reader do us the favour to give righteous judgement whether these words cited by him make for him or against him where is 1 giving leave 2 a course of giving leave 3 to any 4 to obiect and urge pro and con and 6 which is horribly grosse to implead the Minister of error at the first dash and that openly before all the people c. Whereas his own cited Authors tells him the contrary 1 That it is done not often but seldome 2 Not many questions but a question 3 Not upon sleight but weighty and very urgent grounds 4 Not rashly and boldly but wisely and meekely 5 And this not per●mptorily concluded of by all but some only thinke they have a liberty 6 And not that it is now so much done but was for a time by the bold opinionist who are now chased away long agoe See what a vast gulfe betwixt the Author and W. R. Now for him to reade over distinctly all these expressions in this booke for that answer was written to himselfe from godly men in New-England yet to produce it as a proofe for his Art and the Marg. which in common sence is contrary to it I stand amazed at it and wonder with what face he could print it or having done it how he can let his book be kept from the fire thus long Yet further note our Narratour undertakes to relate only such Church-courses as are generally by the Churche in New-England practised as pag. 1. title How then can he with honesty bring in this asking of questions amongst such kind of generall Church courses of ours whereas his Author plainely saith this asking of questions is not Generally practised nor by all the Churches but sildome in any Church and in most Churches never at all and that one may live as he saith from one end of the yeere to another in our congregations and not here any man open his mouth in such kind of questions What will not W. R. boldly attempt against his brethren of the independent way and their Churches that cites these very words I have related to prove such Church courses in New-England as are generally practised amongst us Answer to CHAP. XIIII TO Marg. on the Title Some saith he grow shie of the word independent some utterly renounce it yet most owne it Answer If the word bee rightly taken as in Answer to 32. q. 46. it 's expounded for one Church that is not under the power of another or in subjection to a Presbyterie but as having received power from Christ to governe her selfe according to his lawes Then all accord to it But if the word Independent bee abusively taken as it is often with the vulgar for such a Society as are neither subject to Magistracy nor regard the counsel of other Churches but are a conceipted and selfe-sufficient people that stand onely on their owne leggs Then wee have cause to be shie of a word that may render us odious without cause To Marg. of 1 Art That wee have store of imperative Churches who may command yea compell both members and Ministers to act Ans Another slaunder without ground or proofe or truth which I leave here upon record God our consciences and our Brethren bearing us witnesse how tender our Churches are but to perswade men to act without light much more to command or compell both which very words though the thing required were lawfull are odious in the Churches of Christ most fitly becomming the Synagogues of Antichrist Hath hee a lycense to speake any thing To Art 2. We hold our Church power absolute and imperiall Answ All we use to speake of our Church-power is that it is ministeriall which is farre from absolute and imperiall words fitter for Emperours of this world then the Churches of the Saints I charge it on his conscience as in the sight of God either to make this appeare or else vindicate us as becomes an honest Christian to doe And for his two printed Authors cited for we cannot come at his private letters if there be any one word or shew of ground from them to maintaine his speech Let me beare the shame of it for I here avouch the contrary under my hand To Art 3. and Marg. That we deny all representation of Churches absent and all authoritative deputation of Messengers to act for them ●nsw 1. The Reader may well see it is his own saying not ours for he brings no proofe but from Barrow and Johnson who cannot well give in their testimony for our Church waies in New-England because they never came there yea were in their graves both or one long before ever wee had a beeing in New-England 2. There is no truth in it for we hold a Church may delegate some men and send them forth in their names and stead with authority to act for them in this or that particular businesse of trust as Act. 15.2 And yet he hath boldly now twise or thrise affirmed the same thing of us and brings no proofe at all for it and it is answered before cap. 2. Art 3. Marg. Yet some tells us saith he that Mr. P. and Mr. W. were sent hither by the Churches to negotiate for them c. Answ 1. Some tell us Sir you are a man of judgement and gravity able to instruct others You know you may not blemish your brethren and sl●nder Churches upon such poore and weake grounds as it is reported I am informed some tell us And yet how oft in your booke have you used this course of dealing towards your bretbren and their Churches Some tell us indeede is warrant enough for people that have no other businesse to make three farthing bookes of and thereby fill the world with tales but oh farre be