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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19164	The attestation of the most excellent, and most illustrious lord, Don Carlos Coloma, embassadour extraordinary for Spayne. Of the declaration made vnto him, by the lay Catholikes of England concerning the authority challenged ouer them, by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon. With The answere of a Catholike lay gentleman, to the iudgment of a deuine, vpon the letter of the lay Catholikes, to the sayd Lord Bishop of Chalcedon.	Coloma, Carlos, 1573-1637.; Baltimore, George Calvert, Baron, 1580?-1632. Answere of a Catholike lay gentleman to the judgement of a devine. aut	1631 (1631)	STC 5576; ESTC S117323	60,660	174

there then we heere yet they haue only a Bishop with a forraine Title and I belieue with power farre short of that which this Deuine would faine haue for my Lord of Chalcedon Where if they had Bishops Bishops Courts as we haue such lawes of auncient and late times as we haue I doubt whether they would haue euen that But to be brief I say in a word that our Kingdome is more different frō both Ireland and Holland then they two are from perfect Catholique countryes And whereas this Deuine bringeth a place of Scripture for proofe of the prouidence of God thereby to make men not so to stād vpon secrecy I may bring two to the cōtrary One is that of our Sauiour Math. 4. Non tentabis Dominum Deum tuum thou shalt not tempt thy Lord God as they do that put themselues into needlesse perils Another is that of our Sauiour also which he gaue to his Apostles when he sent thē to preach Matth. 10. Ecce ego mitto vos sicut oues in medio luporum estete ergo prudētes sicut serpentes simplices sicut columbae Cauete autem ab hominibus tradent enim vos c. Behould I send you as shep amiddest wolues be therefore prudent as serpents and simple as doues but beware of men for they will betray you c. Which admonition is as proper for our Country our tymes as euer it was for any And therefore notwithstanding our Deuines confidence I shall wish still that with sincerity and zeale men ioyne prudence or else their zeale may do more harme then good And we find by experience that the prudent secrecy of some hath beene a greater meanes of preseruing Catholique Religion in these hard times thē the ouer-hardy zeale of others And so much for the fourth Section SECT V. That their cause of publique disauowing the Bishops Authority is not pretended and feigned VVHEREAS the Catholiques in their Letter say that it was vnsafe for them to haue beene silent so long towards his Lordship so clayming publishing his Authority this Deuine saith that they pretend the cause of disauowing the Bishops power of Ordinary was the feare of daunger of the State if they had not so done Which to be meerely feigned he proueth by many reasons all of them almost alledged and answered before But as he alledgeth them heere againe so must I be faine to repeat the answers The first is because no vsuall Authority of an Ordinary which alone the Bishop claymeth but at most Extraordinary of Legates and such like was forbidden by the ancient lawes without the Princes approbation I answere as before that my Lord Bishops Authority which he claymeth is not that vsuall Authority of an Ordinary but that extraordinary of Legates and such like as appeareth plainly by the wordes of his owne Letter wherin he sayth he is not Ordinary Ordinario modo but Extraordinario as Legats Nūtio's such like Now that is vsuall Authority for an Ordinary which is had in the vsual manner therfore that Authority which he claymeth is that which is forbydden by the aunicent lawes The 2. reason because those lawes were made for Catholique tymes and in fauour of Catholique Ordinaryes not for herelicall tymes and in fauour of hereticall Ordinaries against Catholiques I answere well be it so Doth this Deuine thinke in his Conscience such an Answere would quit a man that should stand at the barre for acknowledging of my Lord Bishops Ordinaryshippe or Iudicatiue Power Sure he cannot thinke it For though the law were made in a Catholique tyme when they litle dreamed of such a change as hath beene since yet now the tymes are changed and Protestant Ordinaryes are come in place of Catholiques all the power priuiledges of the one conferred vpon the other and the Law not repealed are not men still liable What with right and what with might questionlesse a man would be found guilty For his 3. reason he saith he much suspecteth that only priuity doth not make a man guilty but granteth it of acknowledgement or participation But he asketh what need they had to take knowledge of such Authority For the Bishop he sayth wrote but one Letter of this matter which came to few hands and far fewer can be conuinced to haue seene it I answere that for the priuity though this Deuine say he suspecteth that wil not make a man guilty yet I presume he cannot be so bad a Lawyer as not to know that priuity in matter of felony or treason maketh a man accessary if he but onely know it and not discouer it If accessary then certaynely guilty and this is generall in all criminall maters without exception Why then should he make question in this matter Or taking knowledg of it I would faine heare how could any man auoyde it Suppose any man should haue been questioned for acknow ledgement of his Lordships Authority could he pleade ignorance of his Lordships clayme it being made by a Letter written to all the Catholiques of England for their satisfaction and to let them know what Authority he had Would it seeme probable that any Catholique should not see or heare of such a Letter Now that the Letter was but one that it came to few hands It is true it was but one But that one was inough and more then inough For what he sayth of the Letters comming to few hands I answere first it seemeth by the matter and manner of writing to haue beene my Lord Bishops intention that it should come to more Secondly it is well knowne that there were more copies made and some of my Lords Clergy had the care speedily to diuulge it so as it was diuulged in some remote parts of England at the very same tyme it was published heere How then can this Deuine say the Letter came but to few mens hands And for being conuinced to haue seene it in so publique a thing as that was no man will stand to proue it but presume it as any man wel may For what Catholique could be ignorant of it The 4. reason is That many monethes before my Lord Bishop published his Authority of Ordinary these Gentlemen sent Interrogatories as this Deuine termeth them vnto him to haue him declare whether he was Ordinary or no. So as he sayth they were rather desyrous he should declare himselfe to be Ordinary then conceale it It is true Catholiques saw many things they could not tell what to make of and so might be willing to know certainly and from his Lordship himselfe what Authority he had but might not the answere haue beene priuate as the demaunds were They were desirous to know but not so that all the world must know they knew had they knowne in priuate they might haue represented the inconueniency and daungers priuately to my Lords consideration But his Lordship feared some such thing and therfore made answere in such publique manner as to carry the matter cleere without reply But

of totall restitution of the Catholique fayth when Almighty God shall please the Sea Apostolique dealeth most prudently sending men hither with so much power as is necessary and expedient for Catholiques at this tyme reseruing the fullnesse of Ordinary Episcopall power till the full restitution of Catholike Religion in this Kingdome For so Catholiques are well assured that his Lordship is not Ordinary howsoeuer the Deuine cry nothing but Pastour and lawfull Pastour at euery word But men giue him the hearing only they cannot but woūnder that he should so brauely carry out the matter as if there were no Declaration or order to the contrary when he cannot but know that my Lord Bishop hath had more orders thē one to that purpose Nay that my Lord Bishop hath acknowledged the receipt of them else where though heere he do not and hath promised to cease from further stirring though we do not yet see the performance of it vnlesse it be that his Lordship indeed forbeare but that his Officers wil not be obedient to him in that wherin they may soone do his Lordship much wrong For their faults wil be imputed to him Now because this Deuine sayth Episcopall power hath beene euer obserued in the Church in all times of persecution whatsoeuer inferring thereupon that here now in England there ought to be a Bishop I would wish him to consider whether euen in the primitiue Church the persecution were like ours in some respects for though it were more bloudy● and the tormēts more various and cruel yet it was but by fits and generally the Christians had their Cripts placed vnder ground and howses dedicated to that vse wherein they had a publike kind of exercise of their faith euen by publike allowance and Priests and Clergy men were distinguished by their habit tonsure or shauing of their crowne as it is vsed now generally in the Catholique Church But our case is farre different for heere we haue much ado to heare Masse in a corner as priuate as may be without discouery how much lesse might we haue those other things which belong to the Authority of an Ordinary But of this againe in another place These things considered since none of these spiritual cōmodities which this Deuine speaketh off are necessarily cōnected with the Authority of Ordinary neither are so necessary but that a man may be a good Christian and Catholique without them they cannot be the true motiue of pursuing the matter with such violence and heate to the greater scandall and harme of the Catholique cause then all the Authority my Lord Bishop would haue or this Deuine haue for him wil do good and therefore men are induced to thinke that the true motiue is Ambition desire of Rule interest in the fortunes of Lay men disposing of Legacies in maius bonum as would be pretended iudgemēt of controuersies betweene party party without their consents and by little and little to draw into practise a vexation by the seuerall tribunals vpon Catholiques This I will not say but surely there be great presumptions for it for if their reasons were good they would carry things with more tēper they would with a litle more patience endure to heare men propound their reasons to the cōtrary they would quietly expect the determination of the Sea Apostolique and obey it when it commeth besids that in their very discourses they cānot but bewray somwhat of their minds concerning Legacies monyes for pious vses But I will say no more of it but passe to another Section SECT IIII. That the Temporall daungers are not meerly pretended THE Deuine in his 4. Section laboureth by many reasons to proue that the tēporall Daungers are but pretended which is but euen the same that he said in the former Section in other words For though he sayth in the title that their motiues were worldly yet in his discourse he sayth that those were not their true motiues but their passionatenesse to Regulars and so he sayth heere yet I must yield to follow him though he saith but the same things ouer againe His first reason to proue the daungers to be only pretended is because they neuer mentioned those daungers till approbation was moued to Regulars which was about Easter 1627. whereas Episcopal Authority had beene restored since the yeare 1623. I answere first that wheras he sayth that Episcopall Authority was restored I see not how that can be said to be restored which neuer was for when was there euer a Bishop of Chalcedon in Englād with power of Ordinary in England before this mans predecessour Secondly Catholiques did little dreame at first of any such Authority as my Lord Bishop challengeth For the forraine title of Chalcedon gaue thē some assurance that he was not to be a Bishop like as in former Catholique tymes And though they heard somtymes of the word Ordinary amōg some of my Lords Clergy yet they made no great matter of it not knowing any great ground Notwithstanding they were desirous to know what Authority the Bishop had and for that cause vsed all the meanes they could to see his Letters or Faculties but they could not get a sight of them which made them begin to suspect somwhat and so they began to be a litle more carefull then before especially hearing of diuers things done by my Lord of Chalcedons officers as Excommunicating of some and threatning others as also comming to see the Letters Patents wherby his Lordship did create his Archdeacons true and lawfull Rulers and Ecclesiasticall Superiours of the Laity which when they saw they began to cōsult among themselues what was fit to be done And all this was before that euer my Lord of Chalcedon moued any thing about Approbation of Regulars And without question they would haue done what they did for their owne security though the matter of Approbation had neuer beene moued to Regulars It may be when they saw the flame breake out so strōg against Regulars who were otherwise exempt by challenging of a thing which could not belon● but to a proper Ordinary in his Diocesse it might quickē them make them go about what they were doing with a little more speed and therupon they drew certaine points concerning my Lord of Chalcedons Authority in which they were desirous to be resolued and all of them concerning themselues and such as they had heard many of my Lord of Chalcedons Officers and friends speake of as things that were like to be put in practise But because it was not fit for thē to go vpon vncertaine reports they were desirous to know of my Lord of Chalcedon himselfe what his Lordship did conceiue to belong vnto him so that this Deuine is cleane out of his way in making the matter of approbatiō of Regulars the cause of the Laymens stirring His second reason to proue the daungers to be pretended only is because no man hath beene in daunger since the restitution of Episcopall Authority For answer to

we aymed at by adioyning this Declaration In the meane tyme seeing for diuers respects we haue not the freedom to present our selues in person hūbly to lay downe our owne Cause before his Holines we beseech those Catholiks who are lyke to fynd freer accesse vnto him and who shall light vpon these wrytings to be intercessours for vs vnto his Holines that he will vouchsafe to expresse his mind and giue sentence of this controuersy which we now haue with the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon to the end all occasions of further scandall dissention may be entierly cut off quyte remoued as we hope they will if his Holynes will be pleased to giue it in such a manner as his resolution may be publickely diuulged and openly made knowne to all For if it be only expressed in priuate ech party may eyther affirme or deny what they thinke good so that the strife begun will rather take increase by that meanes then be any whit extinguished as experience hath cleerly taught vs hitherto Moreouer we most earnestly crau● that in our behalfe they will humbly beseech his Holines not to resolue of any thing in this busines wherby our King● most Excellent Maiestyes indignation may be prouoked against vs or we brought yet further into his displeasure Lastly we intreat them not to censure or condemne these our proceedings with disparagment to our honour esteeme seeing we haue alwaies yet byn ready as the whole world may witnesse to lay downe with all humility our very liues fortunes whensoeuer a iust cause for the defence of our faith shall require it REASONS GIVEN to Monsieur de Chasteau-neuf Embassadour Extraordinary of the most Christian King to shew that the Authority of a Catholike Ordinary heere in England is incompatible with this tyme place FIrst we professe in the sight of God that from our harts we reuerence Episcopal Authority as knowing it to be Gods institution and that we vnfaynedly wish the times were such as we might submit our selues therūto whatsoeuer hath byn sayd of vs to the contrary is very slanderous In the next place we do with al reuerence and humility declare that according to the lawes and state of this Kingdome as now they are we conceaue that the authority and iurisdiction of an Ordinary is not only inconuenient and vnusefull but impossible to be executed so dangerous to be obeyed nay euen acknowledged as that we cannot be obliged thereunto And we do verily belieue that vpon many and weighty reasons whatsoeuer hath byn affirmed to the contrary that his Holynes hath had no intention to oblige vs vnto it nor will after information how things stand heere There are heere many Statutes of the Kingdome in force which make it highly penall in some cases with losse of goods liberty and in others of life to acknowledge any other Authority or Iudicature then such as by the same statuts are authorized which though we are obliged not to regard when there is question of any doctrine of fayth yet when a man shall run hazard of vtter ruine for admitting and acknowledging of externall iurisdiction and authority which importeth not faith but practise of things not necessary but according to tyme and place we conceaue that we cannot be obliged to imbrace it If it be sayd that it is Capitall for a man to receaue a Catholique Priest into his house and that yet many receaue them with all the hazard and that therefore we might aswell receaue an Ordinary into our houses acknowledging his Authority The answere will make it appeare that the obiection proueth nothing agaynst vs. For first it is certayne that euen for the reason of being so Capitall and that there are so many lamentable examples among vs not only of friends who haue discouered and betraied other friends for receauing Priests eyther for interest licentiousnesse of lyfe reuenge frailty or for some other passion but of Seruants who haue betrayed their Maysters Nephews Vncles Grandchildren children their Parents Daughters their very Mothers yea and euen Priests themselues sometymes who haue fallen and betrayed Catholikes we neyther are nor can by any humane authority be obliged to take Priests into our houses Many of vs indeed do it out of deuotion and zeale for the comfort of our soules by celebrating Masse and receauing the most necessary and daily Sacraments and many of vs also do it not But howsoeuer we thinke it a very ill consequence to inferre that therefore a man is or may be obliged with the hazard of his estate of lyfe to acknowledge or submit to the Authority of an Ordinary for the practise of some thinges without which we yet finde by experience and Gods grace we haue alwayes subsisted in these sad tymes because forsooth out of voluntary deuotion zeale many of vs are contēt to run the highest hazards in receauing of Priests for the so necessary and dayly exercise of our Religion through want whereof we also find by experience of Saxony Denmark and many other countries in Germany Religion hath in effect wholy fayled Besides a Priest who is a Person of our owne election being first authorized as fit and capable by the Sea Apostolicke may haue entrance into our houses and exercise his function in a much more priuate and safe manner then it is possible for an Ordinary to doe especially when he will carry himselfe as Ordinary For in that case besides seruants there must be alwayes Officers parties and witnesses who do not all and euer vow so much as discretion or yet to continue constant in the Catholicke fayth And for our parts the dangers being such as they are it will be impossible to secure vs in this poynt where sometymes it happeneth that an vndiscreet word vttered euen without ill meaning may turne to our losse of goods and life Besides if we could abstract from the danger of offending the State it is to be considered that our Mariages and Testaments and the lyke are made lyable heere to those Ecclesiasticall Courts and Tribunals which are setled by the lawes of this Kingdome and are executed by certayne Chancellours and Commissaries for that purpose who may often oblige and sentence vs in the affirmatiue whereas a Catholike Ordinary or Iudge would perhaps do it in the negatiue and so we should be tossed betweene two ●ockes Agayne if a Catholicke Ordinary should p●onounce any sētence at which the party might be grieued which must needs occurre somtimes his final remedy would be an appeale to Rome which yet it would be Capitall for him to make besides the charge of prosecuting such a suite and the impossibility for the most part of vs so much as to send or write to a place so distant and so contradicted by the State heere for the bringing of such a suite to an end And to shew both the inconueniences and impossibilities of executing the power of a Catholicke Ordinary in such a

Your Lordships letter consisteth of foure points whereof we conceiue the second principally to concerne vs which is of your Authority as Ordinary deliuered by you vnto vs in these words As for the Authority wherewith I demaunded it that is as great as any Ordinary hath or can haue to demand the same of Regulars or Diocesse 2. And makes me a Iudge in prima instantia 3. And therby makes me as true absolute an Ordinary in Englād as other Ordinaries are in their Diocesse 4. By my Briefe it is cleere that I am delegated by his Holines to an vniuersality of causes belōging to Ordinaries 5. And haue been styled by the Cardinals de propaganda side Ordinarius Angliae Scotiae These passages with the whole scope of the second part of your Lordships letter argue your Lordship to assume your Authority ouer the Lay Catholiques to be as great in England and Scotland as any Ordinaries exercised heere in Catholique tymes and now is exercised in Cath. Countreys The extent of this assumed Authority concerning the Laity we shall humbly craue leaue to lay open to your Lordship First an Ordinary hath power of questioning proouing of Wills Secōdly of granting administratiōs Thirdly of deciding of Controuersies of Tythes Fourthly of Cōtracts Mariages Diuorces Alimony Bastardy And fifthly of slaunders with many others in all which causes examinations are to be taken vpon oath and sentences and censures will follow Now cōtrouersies of this nature haue mixture with temporall Authority concerning our temporall Fortunes and haue beene by our temporall Lawes Statutes so assisted altered and directed both in the tyme of our Cath. and Protestant Princes as hath seemed conuenient to the Church and state of these Kingdomes from tyme to tyme. All which are so already setled as innouation is most dangerous as being contrary both to diuers ancient and moderne lawes Now since the erecting of a tribunal about the administring course of iustice eyther distinct and much more if it be cōtrary to our lawes is an offence of high Treason that all they who submit and conforme themselues thereunto may be drawne within the cōpasse therof or of misprision of Treason or Premunire at least if they haue any litle priuity or participation thereof Besides that the execution of the Authority of this new Tribunall in so many cases as will dayly arise alloweth no possibility of secresy and wil prouoke the present gouernment to an exact search after it and suppression thereof It may therefore easily appeare to your Lordship how dāgerous it is for the Layty to submit conforme it selfe thereunto and vnsafe euen to haue been so long silent to your Lordship by whome it hath beene so claymed published Moreouer the inconueniences must be great which were to follow out of the contrariety of such sentences as would often happen between your Lordships Courtes and the Courtes of this Kingdome These dāgers are so knowne by vs haue been so maturely considered that they admit no further question thereof And if they had been so vnderstood abroad togeather with the consideration of our long sufferings and present estate of miseryes we presume no such Authority would haue beene imposed vpon vs. Neyther can we be perswaded that there is a necessity of conforming our selues thereunto as to a matter of Fayth or yet we can be obliged to loose our estates and ruine our posterities where the necessity of faith doth not oblige vs. We also most humbly beseech your Lordship to beleeue that this which we heer do represent vnto you is the sense of the Laity and we desire that it may be made knowne both heere abroad frō which we cannot recede for the reasons formerly expressed To the rest of your Lordships Letter not so directly concerning the general estate of the Lay Cath. s but rather the Regulars we humbly beseech your Lord. P that we may not be called into more interest preiudice therby thē we were in the time of your Lordships Predecessour and that these differences may be carried with such charity sweetnes candour and without noyse as may aduance that vnion wherin your Lordships desires and ours are to meete for the greater good of our Countrey And thus we must humbly take our leaues of your Lordship Your Lordships most obseruant The Lay Cath. of England A LIKE DECLARATION MADE BY the said Lay Catholikes of England to the most Excellent and most Illustrious Lord the L. Marques de Fōtany Embassadour to his most Christian Maiesty and other Ordinary Embassadors of Catholike Princes in England CONCERNING The said Authority of Ordinary pretended by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon HAuing vnderstood these days past by the testimony of sundry witnesses of credit that a grieuous slaunder is layd vpō vs the lay Catholicks of England both at home and beyond sea as if we did not respect and reuerence Episcopall Authority and Iurisdiction as it behoueth good Catholicks this vpon no other groūd as we are well assured then that we refused to acknowledge the pretended authority iurisdiction of my Lord of Chalcedon ouer vs we thought it a part of our duety both to God and our selues to declare as well how deeply we resent the slaunder as what is our iudgement concerning the questions now in cōtrouersy betweene vs and my Lord of Chalcedon which feeling and iudgement of ours we summarily represented before to the most Excellent Lord Marques de Fontany Ordinary Embassadour for the most Christian King in this Court and now very lately also we opened the same more at large to the most Excellent Lord Don Carlos Coloma extraordinary Embassadour for the Catholick King in the same Court who hauing before hastened his departure out of this kingdome being now hourely to depart we were forced to dispatch this matter in his presence without delay And now we desire to aduertise the courteous reader that we haue thoght good to make the same Declaration fully and distinctly to the sayd most Excellent Lord Marques de Fontany Embassadour Ordinary for the most Christian King to the other Embassadours and Agents of Catholique Princes residēt in this Court Wherupon some of highest Ranke in the name of many others deliuered to the sayd Embassadours and Agents a Copy both of the Letter aboue printed in the which we answered my Lord of Chalcedōs Letter vnto vs and of a certaine wryting also heere printed which about some two yeares past many of prime Nobility had presented to the most Excellent Lord de Chasteau-neuf then Extraordinary Embassadour for the most Christian King in this court professing themselues Authors thereof To the end that by these meanes it may be made knowne as well to the Embassadours themselues as by them to the whole world how great a wrong we conceaue to haue bin done to our Christian reputatiō by the spreading of these false reports And also what our opinion and iudgement now at this present is

which as things stand will rather hinder then help Now for our auncient lawes which our Deuine sayth are not against a Catholique Episcopal tribunal not according to the meaning of the Law-maker howsoeuer it may be against the sound of the words I say first that as times stand it is enough to be against the letter of the Law our Protestant Iudges and men in Authority who thinke themselues fittest to be interpreters of the Law will haue great aduātage against vs if they shal be able by the very words of the aunciēt lawes to bring vs with in compasse of Treason or Premunire And if now by word writing they publish to the world that we dy not for Religion but for Treason although we suffer but by the lawes made in this time of Protestancy how much more colourably would they thinke to do it whē we shall suffer by the auncient Lawes made and practised in Catholique tymes and not disallowed or contradicted by the Sea Apostolique And it may be this very thing if it had been so knowne to his Holines as the Catholiks Letter saith well for it is no disparagement for any man to say that he doth not know all particular Lawes and Ordinances of all Countryes it is most probable his Holines would neuer haue put the Catholiques into any the least occasion of such offence especially being a thing wholy needlesse at this time Secondly a man may perhaps also say it is against the meaning of the law in some sort For though it were neuer the meaning of our Catholique Auncestors to hinder the lawfull exercise of Ordinary Ecclesiasticall power yet their end was as this Deuine confesseth to restrayne the exercise of extraordinary power or Legatiue by reason of the disturbance which it did many times cause in the vsuall courts of Iustice of this kingdome Why then may not a mā say they meane of such power as my Lord Bishop would haue heere considering the presēt state of things For heere be now vsual Ecclesiastical courts of Ordinaries or Bishops but they are Protestāt Bishops say you I graunt it but yet in their Courts they retaine the same forme of iustice in great part the same kinds of causes they had aunciently and though it be true that they haue not true Ecclesiastical iurisdiction as being Branches cut of from the roote which is the Sea Apostolique yet they exercise it de facto by the Kings authority so as all both Protestants and Catholiques must be subiect vnto them so much as concerneth the outward gouerment or forum externum Now my Lord Bishops Authority in this case suppose it Ordinary for the present for disputatiōs sake is of no lesse hinderance or disturbance to the Ordinary Courts and course of Iustice then was Legatiue in ancient times nay more for the Legatiue court was a Superiour court and therfore did not medle in Ordinary and dayly matters but in some particuler cases and euents Whereas my Lord Bishops Court if he were Ordinary would answere ex aequo as I may say and directly to the Ordinary spirituall Courts heer and might challenge the hearing and determining of all causes as due to it selfe excluding the other as vsurper In which respect I thinke that as this Deuine sayth the law-makers neuer intended to hinder the restitution of Catholique Episcopall iurisdiction so I am of opinion with him thus farre though they would not hinder it when tyme should be for it so yet that in such tyme and circumstances as now we are in and so long as it were not in their power to hinder but that Protestants should b●are the sway as they do they would neuer haue lyked the restitution of it in such manner as his Lordship desireth To which though I am the rather induced by considering how the Catholique Bishops who in Queene Maryes time exercised their Authority and kept their courts vpon the suppression of Religion and their Authority and the substitution of others in their place forbare the exercise thereof as hurtful rather then any way vsefull nay euen impossible Thirdly not to stand guessing what would haue been the mind of the Law-makers in this particular case suppose my Lord of Chalcedon were Ordinary heer to come to the true playne meaning of the Law which this our Deuine acknowledgeth to wit that by it is forbidden the exercise of a legatiue tribunal I say this law precisely and directly toucheth his Lordships Court which he would erect For though be not a legate à latere yet he is a Delegate of the Sea Apostolique and his power is of the same kinde with Legatiue though inferiour vnto it And this is manifest by the words of his owne Letter saying he is Ordinarius not Ordinario modo but extraordinario modo as Legats Nuncio's and the like though he be not yet so truly Ordinary as any of them whose power is expressed in the Canon Law his Lordships power being wholy out of the Commō Course Therfore the law is much more against it then against the power of a Legate Secondly the very manner of conferring the Authority by speciall Commission doth manifestly shew him to be a Delegate for that is proper to Delegation Thirdly he hath his Iurisdiction ad beneplacitum which is essentiall to Delegation But what need I stand further prouing so manifest a thing whē as both his commission hath the expresse word Delegamus and his Holines his Nuncio of Paris in a Letter vnder his owne hand speaking of my Lord Bishop of Chalcedons Breue sayth Delegationis suae Breue sufficienter ostendit c. by word of mouth he did not only tell diuers that will iustify it that my Lord was not Ordinary but proued also by the Cannons that he could not be Ordinary His Lordships Power then being rather Legatiue then Ordinary and euen not that legatiue which is expressed in iure and whose power in that respect is called Ordinary because it is belonging to the office of a legate by law it is plaine that the ancient Law doth properly touch his Lordships power and Tribunall For suppose when Englād was Catholique a man had come in hither all the Bishopricks being ful with such a speciall title and commission and chalenging such Authority heere as his Lordship now doth what would other Bishops say In what Ordinary Tribunall should he sit Must he not erect himselfe a new one Nay suppose his Lordship should haue byn Bishop of Canterbury and one come in as he doth Bishop of Chalcedon by speciall Commission would not his Lordship think that man to offend against this ancient law in such a case And whosoeuer should acknowledg or submit himselfe to such Authority liable to the penalty there appointed Certainly he would And why not then in this case You will say now there be no Catholique Ordinaries as thē there would be What then say I againe Doth that alter my Lord of Chalcedons Authority Doth not that remaine the same

THE ATTESTATION OF THE Most Excellent and Most Illustrious Lord DON CARLOS COLOMA Embassadour Extraordinary for Spayne OF THE DECLARATION made vnto him by the Lay Catholikes of England Concerning the Authority challenged ouer them by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon WITH THE ANSWERE OF A CAtholike Lay Gentleman to the Iudgment of a Deuine vpon the Letter of the Lay Catholikes to the sayd Lord Bishop of Chalcedon Superiorum permissu M. DC XXXI The Approbation of the famous Preacher and Deuine and most ancient amongst the Doctours of Diuinity of Sorbone now liuing SEing the ground of this whole Controuersy among the English Catholiks is therin placed that the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon seemes to challeng more vnto himselfe then is graunted by the faculties giuen him by the Sea Apostolike from whence it comes that out of the diuerse opinions iudgemēts which are with heat framed by many there arise debats in this present tyme both dāgerous and hurtfull To the appeasing quieting whereof no remedy seemes more to the purpose then to make fully knowne to all the true sense and feeling of the Catholikes that his Holynes doe more clearely lay open his mind concerning the faculties graunted to the sayd Right Reuerend Lord Bishop To both which this present Declaration of the English Catholikes is most necessary therfore I iudge it worthy to be published in print that it may be perused of all Dated at Tornay the 29. of April 1631. Iohn Boucher Sorbone Doctour in Diuinity Chanon and Archdeacon in Tornay and Censor of Bookes THE DECLARATION OF THE Lay Catholikes of England concerning the Authority challenged ouer them by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of CHALCEDON WEE Lay Catholickes of the realme of England haue vnderstood from sundry parts of the Christian world that a foule aspersion is cast vpon our honour reputation for that we are iudged to frame a lesse reuerēd conceit of Episcopal Authothority and iurisdiction and not to render it that Obediecne which may be thought fit The only cause of this is taken from thence that we refuse to submit our selues to that power Authority which the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon hath long since pretended as due vnto his place and to the which as we are assured vpon strong motiues he still layeth clayme taking it as graunted him from the Sea Apostolike This pretended Authority of his hath byn maintayned by sundry Treatises as well written as printed which warrant his Ordinariship and assure him of as much power as is granted to other Ordinaries in what Catholike Diocesse soeuer and warne vs that the same Obedience is to be performed towards him on our part Moreouer we are told that hitherto we were not a Church as long as we wanted a particular Bishop but a flocke without a Pastor an Army without a Generall a Ship without a Pilot a spirituall kingdome without a spirituall king a family without the good mā of the house in a word no true or perfect Christians And although as soone as we had returned an answere to a Letter sent vs from my Lord Bishop presently diuers scandalous wrytings which his Lordship neuer sought to suppresse nor seemed to dislike of were spread abroad and we therin traduced with no small disparagement to our reputation and preiudice to our cause especially in the opinion of the vnlearned yet we chose rather to forgoe our proper and priuate interest then by standing out with vehemency for our owne right eyther affoard vnto others a subiect of scandall or giue way to the daunger of an ensuing Schisme Wherfore in silence we left the decyding of this matter to those who by their Highest power in the Church of God were as well his Lordships as our Superiours But seeing there haue not wanted many both at home and abroad who in a matter nothing belonging to them and who could not so much as pretend any Authority ouer vs haue notwithstanding vsurped the freedome of giuing iudgment in our cause with great domage to our fame and honour which we endeare aboue our liues we haue thought good to declare and auouch entierly and faithfully before God and man these ensuing points First we sincerely belie●e professe that Episcopall Authority in the Catholick Church was ordained by God and as it beseemeth good Catholickes we honour it with all reuerence and daily beg with our best wishes that the diuyne Goodnes will once be pleased to send a tyme in which that authority which is truly giuen and which we account full necessary in the Catholick Church may safely be established amongst vs and we without increase of persecution acknowledge it and as humbly submit our selues vnto it as they do who liue in coūtries not liable to lawes enacted against Religion of which kind very many and those seuere and capitall be heere with vs in force Which fauour if we could but obteyne of his diuine Maiesty truly we should esteeme our selues thrice-happy Furthermore we declare openly that for as much as belongeth to the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon we honour and reuerence him in all duty take him to be a true Catholick Bishop sent hither by the sea Apostolick to administer the Sacrament of Confirmation as we thinke to gouerne that part of the Clergy which is cōmitted to his charge but not to be our Ordinary either after an ordinary or extraordinary māner because we in no case belieue that any such thing hath bin hitherto declared by the sea Apostolicke seeing that the tymes into which we are fallen do no wayes permit vs to obey such Authority without endangering the losse of our goods such a losse as cannot be recouered Neither do we only thinke that the Sea Apostolick hath not as yet bestowed any such office power or authority vpon the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon but moreouer we rest assured that it is not the intentiō of his Holines to grant it him herafter vntil those times returne which may promise that this power will rather serue to support Religion then to ouerthrow it and vntill it may be lawfull for vs to imbrace it freely without so many so great difficulties and dangers which as things now stand is altogeather impossible for sundry and weighty Reasons alledged by vs in the Letter aformētioned in the beginning of this cōtrouersy to my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon which for that the Reader should not peraduēture light on or we be inforced often to repeate the same thing we thought good to set downe in this place a Copy thereof togeather with a certayne Declaration made and presented to my Lord de Chasteau-neuf his Excellency at that tyme the most Christian Kings Embassadour Extraordinary in Englād before whome many Catholicks some of chiefe dignity esteeme amongst vs acknowledged the same for their owne So as the iudicious and vnpartiall Reader will easily perceaue the state of our cause which was the thing