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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A27068	Whether parish congregations be true Christian churches and the capable consenting incumbents, be truly their pastors, or bishops over their flocks ... : written by Richard Baxter as an explication of some passages in his former writings, especially his Treatise of episcopacy, misunderstood and misapplied by some, and answering the strongest objections of some of them, especially a book called, Mr. Baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies, as by law required, and another called, A theological dialogue, or, Catholick communion once more defended, upon mens necessitating importunity / by Richard Baxter.	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.	1684 (1684)	Wing B1452; ESTC R16512	73,103	142

Let us rise upward till we come to the Apostles days None of all these churches named dare profess all their agreements and confession to be without fault that ever I heard of except the English who bind Ministers to assent and consent to all things commanded and prescribed in three Books and excommunicate those that say their Books or Ceremonies and Government hath any thing contrary to the Word of God but no Lay-man is bound to believe them Wickliffe and John H●s the Waldenses and the Bohemians Confessions are not faultless Of the Papist and the S●cinians we will make no question the forenamed churches of Greeks Russians Armenians Abassines Nestorians Jacobites c. are alas past question faulty the general councils upward from that of Trent Basil Constance c. to the six first yea the four first which some equal to the four Gospels are far from being faultless in the Judgment of these Objectors and of my self the Arrian and other heretical councils are past question even that of Nice the first and best I suppose he and I think did not well in setling church-power as they did and forbidding all kneeling on the Lords days in Adoration and other the like The Donatists and the Novatians called the Puritans of those times had faulty agreements were it but for Bps. and Arch-Bps ●e will think them so this Writer can name no one church on the face of the Earth Orthodox or heretical tho Aerius called Presbyters equal with Bps. that was not for Bishops over Presbyters from the year 100 after Christ t●ll the Reformation that ever I could read of Yea consider whether they were not in the Apostles days when Jerome who most depresseth this degree saith That there were such at Alexandria chosen by the Presbyters from the days of Mark and Mark died long before John the Apostle But Episcopacy is not all Not only Epiphanius but all Church History that speaketh of such matters agreeth that besides the croud of latter Ceremonies there were certain ceremonies called the customes of the Universal Church which all the known Churches agreed in even those that differ'd about Easter-day and other such that is 1. Cloathing the Baptized in white Garments 2. Giving them milk and hony to tast 3. Anointing them with Oyl 4. Not kneeling in adoration on any Lords day or any other day between Easter and Whitsunday There is no notice when these began so ancient were they nor of any one Church or Christian that refused them but they were commonly called the Traditions Apostolical or customes of the Universal Church Now I agree with this Author that these things were indeed a deviation from the Apostles practice and ought not to have been thus used But the question is whether every Christian was guilty of the fault that had communion with any of these churches and whether had he then lived he should have separated from all the Churches on earth By this you see that this opinion must needs make men seekers who say that the church was in the wilderness and lost all true Ministry and say they particular churches and Scripture after the first or at most the second century and so that for fourteen hundred years Christ had no visible Kingdom on earth And consequently that we have no wiser answer to the Papist where was your church before Luther than to say that it was Invisible that is that we cannot prove that there was any such thing on Earth and consequently that we cannot prove that Christ had any Kingdom on earth and was its King that is whether there was any Christ in actual church-administration And doth separating from the whole visible church-communion agree with the prophecies and precepts of union Was this church like a grain of Mustard seed in its growth Was all the wonderful works of redemption wrought for no visible society after one or two hundred years in which a few persecuted ones were visible Is not this the next step and a temptation to utter infidelity If Christ have now no visible church on earth but the people called Brownists or Separatists doth it answer the Scripture description of him and his church And is it not exposing christianity to the scorn of infidels so to say Would not almost all rather turn Papists than believe this And be rather of their church than of none 2. But let us next speak of the persons I may speak my thoughts without imposing on you I think that the Major vote is no rule to the Minor nor always is in the right If a hundred men that understand not Greek or Hebrew Translate a Text one way and a good Linguist another way I will more suspect their judgment than his And so in the like case But if I hear a few odd persons condemn the judgment of the generality that are far better acquainted with matters of the same nature as if School-boys that are but in their Accidence should oppose all the upper Forms in expounding Horace or Hesiod or Homer which think you should I most suspect I say again to you compare the writings of Bucer Peter Martyr Calvin Beza Melancthon Chami●r Blondel Dailee and a bundance such and also Greenhams Perkins Dr. J●●n R●ignolds Cartwrights Dods Hildershams Hieroms Amesius's Payne● R●l●e●ks and many such yea with such conformists as Jewels Bp. Downames John Downames Davenants Bp. Halls Arch-Bp Ushers Bp. Rob. Abbots Dr Field● Dr. Challoners Dr. Airys c. I say compare these with the Theological writings of Mr. Penry Mr. Can and all other called separat●sts or Brownists in their times and tell me whether these later did manifest more Holy Wisdom in Heavenly things more skill in all other points of Divinity than the former If their writings giving Mr. Ainsworth his due honour in Hebrew and Piety were as far below the other as the lower forms of School-boys are beneath the highest which should we most suspect to have had the greater or the lesser light specially when the lower condemn and cut off themselves from communion with all Christs known Churches on earth for thirteen hundread years When Mr. Smith and lately a very good man here thought none fit to Baptize him again but Baptized himself was not that singularity a just cause of suspicion Yet I make not the old Nonconformists your rule VIII I argued also from the common frailties of us all that it will be unlawful to communicate with any Church on earth even with those of the objectors mind if we are guilty of the sins in Doctrine worship and discipline of all Churches that we communicate with I will aggravate none nor render that odious which God accepteth My work is to confute those that do so But I say that 1. we have all many errors And men use to put their errors into their prayers and preaching 2. Do not men use to deliberate more and study what to write than what to preach And have men reason to be confident that our preaching

my duty to God besides faults long ago pardoned and common humane infirmities And it is not mens calling duty by the name of the most odious sins that depriveth Martyrs of their reward with God The false imputation of sin by men was not the least part of the sufferings of Christ and his Apostles and the Martyrs in all ages XVII And because others as well as I have need of such admonition I will tell my Brethren that our chief work is the same with J●bs to frustrate the Tempter and see that in all this we sin not nor charge God foolishly And he that only triumpheth in suffering in conscience of his innocency and doth not know that suffering hath its proper temptations and studyeth not wisely how to escape them will suffer more by himself than by all his enemies I will therefore tell you what are the temptations here which I fear and watch against 1. Lest the injuries of men should destroy my due charity to them Tho its true that the setled Study and labour of some for factious or carnal ends be to destroy Christian Love and serious Godliness and the Souls Bodies and estates of the most innocent who they think stand in their way and falsehood hatred and destruction are the Devils work and image and no man must extenuate such crimes John 8.41 42. Yet Diabolisme is not to be imputed to all that men suffer by much less to our Govornours whom we must honour Paul himself persecuted in ignorance and Christ said they know not what they do Much less must we blame others if truly the cause be only in our selves 2. Much more must we watch against desires of revenge or call for fire from Heaven or imitate any that injure us by requiring evil with evil but see that we forgive as we would be forgiven If they be impenitent and God forgive them not their suffering will be heavy enough 3. We must watch against blinding passions that it carry us not into contrary extremes that we may be far enough from sin and so lest we fall into sin on the other side Too few can keep to the line of truth most reel like drunkards from side to side 4. We are much in danger of biassed study never studying impartially what may be said against us and for our opposers but only all that may be said for us against them 5. Men that have a good cause are too apt to betray and spoil it by an ill manner of defending it by mixt errors ill arguments or passions to the hardening of the adversaries and afflictors 6. We must take heed that we fear not suffering wrong more than doing wrong He that doth the wro●g is a far greater sufferer or loser than he that is wronged Our study must be that we neither think wish speak or do any wrong to our adversaries and afflictors 7. We must watch lest the great wickedness of any adversaries should be so much in our eye as to tempt us to make light of our own sin because it is not so great as theirs 8. And we must watch lest the conscience of our good cause or innocency to man should make us foget our many sins against God for which he may permit men by injury to afflict us 9. We must watch lest we judge of the Cause by the Person and should take truth to be falshood and good to be evil because bad men or adversaries own it or lest we take falshood to be truth and evil to be good because good men hold it and lest in Love or Pity we justifie the s●n of any sufferers 10 But we must specially take heed lest fleshly interest and love of r●ches liberty or life should bias and blind our judgments to take any thing to be Lawful which we think is necessary to our quietness and safety and to use sinful means to avoid danger and sufferings These are my Studies and I think them necessary to all And the rather when it grieveth my heart to see so many carryed by suffering so far from unity charity and moderation that they even joyn with those whom they sharpliest accuse tho by other reasons to do their very work and to destroy that which they think they are promoting For instance 1. They blame the Papists and such conformists for saying that the Ministers of the Reformed Churches are no true Ministers And they say the same 2. They blame them for saying their Churches are no true Churches And they say the same 3. They blame them for recusancy and saying it is unlawful to communicate with them and they say the same 4. They blame them that silence Ministers and forbid and hinder them from worshipping God And they themselves disswade all the land from all publick Church-worship where none but with those that use the Liturgy can be had 5. They justly blame Love-killing reproachful Sermons And they write Love-killing reproachful Books 6. They justly blame false accusers of particular persons and they ●●lsely accuse almost all the Churches on Earth as no true Churches 7. They are justly for mutual forbearance and against cruelty and they unjustly aggravate the faults of almost all Church-worshippers on earth as so odious that it must be separated from and in a sort excommunicate them 8. They fear Popery is ready to take possession of the Land and Church and they exhort all Protestants to forsake all the publick churches which are the Garison of the Protestant cause that so the gates may be set open and the Adversaries may find the houses ready swept and garnished or the Garison emptied for their coming 9. They are against the ejecting of the Ministers 1662. and yet crying down a Comprehension they would not have them restored unless it were on terms that will take in them also and who knoweth whom 10. Yea the very top of Popery is to appropriate all power of church-government and worship to the Clergy and to make Magistrates therein but the Clergies Executioners saying they are only for civil government for the body but the Pope and Clergy only for Religious government of the church and for the souls And some called by dividing names among us say That Christ only and his Ministers have power in such matter● and that Princes sin if they command but a Translation a reverent gesture a church-ornament and such circumstances and that it 's a sin to obey them When I see that exasperation by afflicters hath cast some sufferers into such self-contradicting ways I will set on my heart and judgment a double watch in sufferings and abuse And now Reader I again say That tho I was dragg'd to this sort of work as against my will I thank God and my sober sort of Opponents for calling me to it that before I dye I might explain my Writings and not by writing only against one extreme leave them behind me as snares to tempt men to the other extreme And I here leave my testimony again

not by good words and fair speeches but by bad words and deeds to deceive the hearts of the simple in causing divisions and offences 3. I believe I have had with me in my time many scores that have had such melancholly terrors without any such cause and must the matter of their trouble therefore be proved faulty I have known those that for many years could have no peace of mind while they continued Orthodox and Religious and at last hearing Irreligious Sadduces turned ●ilthy and ranters and were never under trouble more that could be perceived but boasted of their peace Who knoweth not that Melancholly maketh many of the most sound and blameless persons like Spira a weary of their lives thorough desparation 4. I can tell these Objectors of eminent ancient godly men that long forbore publick Communion and at last used it and have had more comfort and edification than ever they had before and the more for breaking through all the sharp Censures of their former company in obedience to their Consciences herein And when they have seen a scandalous person with them at the Sacrament have gone with Humility Love and Tears and told him of his sin and danger and had such success as hath comforted them more than avoiding that Communion ever did yea I know those that being threatned by violent Pastors that use Dissenters with rigor have humbly and submissively so pleaded with them from Scripture and experience against that Spirit and Way as hath overcome them and melted them into a more tender and peaceable mind and course A Postscript on a Book of Mr. J. F's SINCE the Writing of all foregoing I have received another Book sent me by J.F. Whether he will be angry if I expound this J. Faldo I cannot tell I read it over to see if there were any thing in it that should change my Judgment But I will not promise to do so by any more such Nor will I so much as tell the Reader what my Judgment said of it in the reading much less write down the Answers which readily offered themselves to my understanding as I went on for it would but more provoke him I see and do the Reader little good unless by helping him to lament the churches case through the infirmities of such as I and he are And the more patiently to bear all our present sufferings by considering how unable we are to agree what to chuse for our selves if we had our wills and how far we should be from desired concord I will not write a Book to contend on the question Whether Mr. Faldo or I be the wiser or better man I am conscious of so much ignorance and badness that if it may edifie the Reader let him think of me as ill as Mr. Faldo and all such men would have him If he have a good cause I wish the Reader may be of his mind If not I find not my self obliged to talk on against such Writers any further for his rescue nor do I think I can say any thing herein which at his rate Mr. Faldo cannot answer I only say that he and such other have satisfied me That the Liturgy-VVorship in the common Lords Day office is comparatively purer than the VVorship of many is like to be who oppose it His Counsel is good to know what the VVorship is before I consent to it I have tried what is in the Liturgy I concurred with many better men 1661 in telling the VVorld how far we could approve or use it I find in it much good and in the ordinary Lords Day common service no fault that should alienate me from conjunction with the Church therein To talk of faults in Baptizing Burial Marrying c is to say nothing to this point I never saw any of these used since I joined with the Church in the Lords-Day VVorship But how to try Mr. F. his VVorship before-hand I know not He saith that if we will be at the cost of it we may have better worship And tho he seem displeased for being called a consenter to my catholick communion either he consented that the Parish-Church-Worship should rather be used than none or else which I suspect when I have read his Book I cannot understand so much as what he is for or against what he meaneth by a Meeting of four whether he take it for a Church I know not I take it not for a Church that hath no Minister or Sacrament And if he know of so many score or hundred thousand Nonconformable Ministers as may guide all the People in England as such Churches of four I do not And if Communion in the Liturgy be simply unlawful it is so to all the Land I think there are millions in the Kings Dominions that can have no other Church-Worship than with the Liturgy at what rate soever they would purchase it If his conceits of my self contradictions were as true as they are false I will tell him other reasons of what he counteth unaccountable than that I wrote one Book in 1659 and another in 1684. I am now 25 years elder than I was then and it s a shame to learn nothing in so many years I am more above all worldly hopes than he is I am past all capacity of them I have less cause of fear than he They will hardly confine me to a Prison narrower than my Bed and Couch My glass is almost run If I be not more apprehensive of my speedy account and it awe me not to own nothing but the truth without dawbing with one extream or other I am much to blame And I have seen some more of the experience of both extremes tho alas I saw too much before And after all comparing all together I leave posterity my thoughts 1. That I had rather the Church had a Liturgy to make all foreknow what Worship they meet for with free prayer also in its place than to have either alone 2. If they must be separated when the Minister is of tryed soundness and ability I had rather have his free prayer alone But for many others I had rather have the Liturgy alone And for instance Mr. Faldo hath oft told me that his Church at Barnet as I twice said before not only omitted but renounced or opposed all singing of Psalms for many years that many of them were of such ill opinions that he was put to much work to save them from being Quakers and at what cost they can now have Church-Meetings when he hath left them I know not For Mr. Faldo to hold up such a Church even to suffering and to write against Communion with the Liturgy where there are able godly Ministers is either erroneous partiality in him or I am blind in my unwilling ignorance To which I further add again that I cannot expect that men Preach sounder Doctrine than they studiously Write nor that they pray more soundly than they preach and if Mr. Faldo and all such Writers so pray and so preach and so live much more if also their Churches have such Maimed Worship as aforesaid and some of them unordained Ministers and many Churches men of many contrary doctrines I take the Common-prayer Book Worship and Communion to be much purer than theirs The Lord make our successors wiser better and more peaceable than we are FINIS § 1.

or disowned by most of the Land and conformists usually profess another sense Upon this very reason I write this short Debate to avoid the injuring of the Re●ders of my Writings about the English Diocesan frame XLII The Book I animadvert on is called Mr. Baxters Judgment and Reasons against c●mmunicating with the Parish Assemblies as by Law r●qu●red Ans I am for communicating with them in the essentials of Christianity and Communion as the Law requireth if I understand it because the Law of Christ requireth it But in whatever circumstances any law shall ●e against Christs Law I communicate not according to such a Law XLIII All that he citeth out of my writings p. 2 3 is against his cause which he thought was for it as I have proved What he citeth § ● the first is unproved the second I own and is nothing for him XLIV P. 5. And oft throughout he alledgeth that I make the Par●shes not compleat particular Churches Ans No wonder those may be true churches that are not compleat in integrity or degree will you separate from all churches that are not so compleat I know not of any strictly compleat on earth many true churches are incompleat as to integrals much more as to ornament order and strength And all particular churches are less compleat than the universal and that on earth alas how far from compleat Believe him not Reader that R.B. is against your joining with all churches which he proveth to be not compleat yea or to be very faulty and defective in point of ●oliness Love or Order of Ministers or people But they are true churches in essentiality tho parts of a Diocess as that is of a Nation not meer parts of the lowest single Church P. 6. § 2. What I say of suspending the power is not nulling it in the office and what I say of practice by canons and visitation Articles is not said of Law much less of all the Churches and Pastors consent to them and what I say of misgoverning in exercise is not said of a national profession that so it ought to b● P. 7. He citeth my words further against restraint of the Ministers power But 1. That nulleth not Christs Institution of it 2. More Power is given As 1. To deny the Sacrament as is said to all that are not ready to be confirmed 2. To deny absolution to all the sick who do not humbly and earnestly desire it c. And the Power of doing it by Ministerial Application of Gods Word is all that is properly ministerial though they take all cogent power from us Mans taking away our power is but hindring the exercise quantum in se but the Power is of Christ which they cannot take away P. 8. They cannot suspend our commanded act but only our doing it with liberty and advantage I can refuse the Sacrament to the unfit tho it be to my trouble P. 9. I say there are many additions to the old conformity that make the case harder to Clergy and Laity than of old But I there maintain that none of these additions do make Parochial Communion now pleaded for unl●wful XLV P. 10. He saith If we might not endeavour to restore the old Prelacy then not to give strength to it being restored And say others lest we be perjured having sworn and covenanted against it Ans This needeth impartial Consideration They say That our covenant engagement maketh that unlawful to us which was lawful to the old Nonconformists But 1. Did not Gods Law make it unlawful to them or to us before Then you think we covenanted to do somewhat th●t ●ods law bound us not to if so it was superstition and is not adding our self-made vows and duties as bad as adding Ceremonies 2. Yea they then thought Brownism a sin and if they mistook not we cannot by covenanting turn sin into duty 3. Ad hominem the Author professeth Independency And I suppose he knoweth that the chief of that way did some write to prove that the Covenant bound not at last and some likened it to an Almanack out of date and some said it was a League which was dissolved and so bound not and how great a party thought that it bound them not from pulling down both King and many Parliaments and conquering Scotland res ips● loqunta ●st And even King and Parliament Lord Spiritual Temporal and Commons have declared it their judgment in the Corporation Act and Declaration which bindeth all the Corporation Officers to declare without exception that there is no obligation on them or any other from the Oath called the solemn League and Covenant It 's true indeed that the Presbyterian Ministers and Soldiers and People thought that this Covenant bound them to restore the King and said Let us keep our covenant and trust God with the issue and G. Monks Army Officers in their address to him glory in it not doubting but the King would find such his best subjects but the Law that bindeth men to declare that there is no obligation on them or any other tells them they did err when they thought it bound them to restore the King Whether this be true or not I meddle not with but by this you see that there are few in the land of any party save Presbyterians that can charge us with Covenant breaking herein for going to the Parish Churches without contradicting themselves or guides but this is but ad Hominem 4. But what words be they in the Covenant that we violate did it mean If power restore the Liturgy and Bishops and will suffer no other Churches we will rather all give over all worship of God in churches than we will join with them This were a wicked Oath and could no more oblige us than to give over all family worship I hope few sober men ever so sware 5. I so little consent to the corporation declaration that I do believe that I was bound by that vow to do as I have done in going to the Parish Churches For 1. I am bound by it against Prophaneness and all that 's c●ntrary to sound Doctrine and Godliness But to forsake all publick Worship of God without necessity is prophaneness and c●ntrary to Godliness 2. I am bound in my place and calling to oppose Popery But to tell all the Protestants in England that they sin if they forsake not all the Parish Churches is to pre●are them for the reception of Popery seeing that will be the National Religion which possesseth those Parish Churches By deserting our Garisons we shall deliver them up 3. I am bound by it against Schism and I am not able to excuse it from being Schism if under all the obligations that now lye upon us I should by my constant avoiding the Parish Churches even unto sufferings declare that I take their Communion for absolutely unlawful and so slander so many Churches of Christ and seduce others with me into the same error and sin This would be