and others of pettier sectes that at the woord would make but poor snakes of theÌ„ I heard a LutheraÌ„ preacher at Augusta tel his auditorie that to deal with a Caluinist inteÌ„ding our ProtestaÌ„ts or Puritanes the best way was to take Gods woord and grease him wel with that about the snowt telling him still that Christe at his last supper sayd Take and eat this is my bodie c. Not suffring him by anie of his Caluinistical shifts to slip from these wordes so may wee conclude quoth hee that either the Caluinist must make Christe a lyer or bee a lyer himself At Francford I heard an Anabaptist demaund of a Caluinist what Scripture hee had for the Christening of children the Caluinist would haue gon about to deduce it by consequence away with your consequenting quoth the Anabaptist for if consequences may bee admitted I wil heare the Papists speak before you you are the verie cooseners of the world you brag and boast of profession of Scripture and when you are put to it then forsooth you are farre enough to seek and not in this matter onlie of Christning of Children but of more matters besydes If I would put you to it and did not spare you for pittie because you are turnd without book alredie I could alleage vnto you sundrie examples of the resolutenes of Hussytes Lutherans Anabaptists and others in their seuerall religions which is such that none of our sermon-makers heer in England can anie whit go beyond them I haue heard somanie of their different pulpit cryes of the light of the Ghospel of the pure woord of God of inward illumination of spirit of sealing it with their blood and such lyke pretensioÌ„s general to all as dulie claymed by the one sorte as by the other that good experience hath taught mee to know such pretensions heer at home to bee as idle fopperies as I haue found theÌ„ in other countries abroade serving onlie to lead away fooles that see no further then the length of their noses If such as heer do keep the greatest coyl in their pulpit-crying of their light of the Ghospel and pure woord of God as thogh without all contradiction they were the onlie men lyving vnder the cope of heauen that had it would but dare to appeer among these other seuerall sortes of professors of other lightes of the Ghospel and other puritie of the woord and bee vrged if they will bee belieued before all the world besydes to set down to the manifest view of all men such proofs and reasons for their assurednes of having the truthe as all the rest shall not bee able in the verie lyke manner to produce for theirs Good Lord how would then our English pulpit boasters bee puzled and what pouertie would then their glorious Ghospel bee broght vnto trust mee there could nothing in this case bee better fitting for them theÌ„ to transport themselues back agayn into invisibillitie if they haue reserued the fâ—il for thereby might they saue themselues from becoming by beeing pointed at the obiects of the sporte of all the others And thusmuch with desyre of pardon dare I further anouche that I do not know anie forreyn countrie vpon earth wherein in anie sorte the name of Christianitie is professed where the religion of England in the iudgment of the Learned of anie of these whatsoeuer is fullie and wholie allowed for good not in one principall point or other gainsayed contradicted And whereas manie heer in England do stand verie much vpon the resolutenes of their Foxian Martirs as thogh their sufferance for their Caluinistical cause were a marvelous great argument of the goodnes thereof but which of the other new pretenders cannot produce their Martirs also Husytes and Lutherans are not without store of them and both thinking themselues to bee much wronged by M. Fox The Hussites in beeing robbed by him of their Patriarche Iohn Husse and the Lutherans by beeing robbed by him in lyke sorte of theire much esteemed martir fryer Barnes As for the Anabaptists their number farre exceedeth those of M. Fox and perhaps ten for one They that list to make the calculation may coÌ„pare those which they haue set down in their book of Martirs entituled The Sacrifice of the Lord with the number of those that are in M. Fox his Acts and monuments I wil now ceasse to bee further tedious vnto you but by this which I haue related concerning religion as also concerning your resolution in your intended seruice I leaue you to iudge which of both our courses is best founded Tawney-scarf I protest vnto you you haue so intoxicated my braine that you haue almoste broght mee to stand staggering between hauk and bussard Red-scarf If you wil stand sure from falling leane vnto the better and the stronger syde Tawney-scarf I wil think on the matter Red-scarf Forget not then to consider I pray you euen for your own honor and the honor of our nation that Englishmen stil continewing to serue the Hollanders notwithstanding all the vilanous wronges they haue doÌ„ne them do preiudice their own esteem among other nations who may imagin them to bee so basely blynded or bewitched by mistaken Holland Ghospel that they cannot see themselues made by the Hollanders in a manner as their slaues for slaues receaue blowes and serue them that beat them and euen so do our countrimen receaue blowes at the handes of the Hollanders and yet serue them The difference is that slaues are beaten by their Masters at home Englishmen by Hollanders abroad whyle their inconsiderate countrimen serue them at home where if they serued them right they might right some of the wronges which abroad they do them And I cannot enough wonder at the sencelessnes of such giddie pated prentises of London as durst so barbarously abuse an Ambassador of a King of Spayn themselues not knowing anie cause why yet when by letters from the East Indies it was by our own MarchaÌ„ts signifyed how moste barbarously and vilanously the Hollanders had abused them these considerate youthes were not a whit moued to anger against M. Caroon who carryeth the name of Ambassador for the Holland States but could shew themselues so soft mynded as to let him pas quietly in the streets of London in his Coatche and do him reuerence as if they had thanked him for it But beginning now to feare that I may haue bin to tedious vnto you and to this good compagnie I will with desyre to be pardoned for my freenesse of speech thank you all for your patience heer make an end of this busynes Tawney-scarf And I thank you also for yours Heervpon according to the promisse before made this Toung-combat ciuilie ceased and soon vpon it the Graucsend iorney also and euerie man disposed himself as his affaires further iorney lay FINIS L. B. S. T. L.
A TOVNG-COMBAT LATELY HAPPENING Between two English soldiers in the Tilt-boat of Grauesend The one go-ing to serue the King of Spayn The other to serue the States of Holland PRINTED With Approbation 1623. To the Right woorshipful SIR EDWARD PARHAM Knight Seriant Major of the Regiment of the Right honorable The LORD VAVX in the seruice of the King of Spayn in the Netherlandes IN my late passage down from London to Grauesend by Tiltboat there chanced among others two gentlemen at that present also to pas beeing both of millitarie profession but differently disposed in their determinations touching the sides they went to serue on for after some course of speech that passed among the compagnie the one discouered his intentioÌ„ to go ouer into the Netherlandes to serue the King of Spayn and the other manifested his purpose to go to serue the States of Holland but because each of them seemed fortifyed with reason for his determination and to think himself as wel able to defend it as hee seemed willing to follow it all the compagnie out of a curiositie weare verie desyrous to heare what by either could be sayd but yet with a prouiso that no inconvenience or falling out between them vpon it might ersue and therefore they desyred them that before they began seriously to argue the matter they should pas their woordes to each other vpon their honors that without iniurying one another in particular each might haue his free speech in defence of his own determined cours that their argunig beeing ended their should no exceptions be taken either by them or anie of the compagnie for oght that had bin spoken but that both they all the rest of the compagnie their discours beeing ended should in ciuil and courteous manner carrie themselues so take their leaues of each other when their wayes lay to bee seperated To this all agreed and these twdyn gaue each other their handes vpon the conditions there vpon began between them a Toung-combat wherein neither of both were slayn or maymed and because it may bee some recreation vnto you to vnderstand how the matter passed I thoght good now at my soonest leasure as wel as my memorie would permitt mee to penne it down to present it vnto your view to whome I hold my best endeuours obliged thus kissing your handes I take my leaue wishing vnto you the atchyving of all honor answerable vnto your noble valour and courage The deuoted honorer of your virtues D. N. To the Reader BECAVSE the ensuing discours is dialogue wyse that some note of distinction must of necessitie be vsed seeing I know not these gentlemennes names I haue thâ—ghâ— good to note them by their scarfs as by calling him that was to go to serue the King of Spayn by the name of Red-scarf according to the colour of the scarf hee wore to call the other by the name of Tawney-scarf because he wore a scarf of the colour of Orange-tawney The compagnie after the conditions of quietnes at parting were agreed vpoÌ„ became all silent to heare them begin The first then beeing Tawney-scarf began in this manner IT seemeth strange vnto mee that anie of our Countrimen should rather resolue to serue the King of Spayn then thee States of Holland considering how long their cause quarrel had bin by Englishmen supported and the number of our Countrimen that continew to serue on that syde Red-scarf It semeth as strange vnto mee that men of sence and vnderstanding should not rather regard the iustnes of the cause quarrel which they are to defâ—d especially when they are not constrayned but that their resolution lyeth in their owne choyse then to let themselues bee blyndfolded led forward by sinister suggestion to follow the vn vnderstanding vulgar multitude for companie or custome sake because they haue continued so long a tyme to serue on that syde without knowing or caring wherein right or wrong coÌ„sisteth Tawney-scarf You must not think that the first resolution taken for the assistance of the Hollanders was without good consideration of the iustnes of their cause and the same beeing once begun and continued what needed further doubt or scruple bee made thereof by the after-followers of it Red-scarf Because it is no article of faith to belieue that the first resolution taken in England for the assisting of the Hollanders was not without good consideration of the iustnes of their cause diuers haue since penetrated further in to it to see whether it so were or not but could not so fynd it therefore those you speak of that haue followed it without scruple haue bin people that were not scrupulus at all for there is no cause bee it neuer so bad but some will bee found without anie scruple willing to follow it Tawney scarf I know their are some that are redie enough to embrace the folowing of bad courses but what coÌ„cernes that this Red-scarf If the cause of the Hollanders by anie vndisprooueable reasons of yours shall appeer vnto mee to bee iust I shal not onlie bee sorrie for myn error in not apprehending it so to bee but resolue to go along with your self vnto their seruice Tawney-scarf I am glad to heare you speak so therefore I wil endeuour to giue you satisfactioÌ„ in hope of the having of your good compagnie Three causes I conceaue to haue bin the motyues why Queen Elizabeth did first vndergo her assisting the Hollanders The first was their beeing opressed and wronged by the King of Spayn and in danger to bee broght vnder the seueritie of the Spanish inquisition The second was in regard they were our so neer aioyning freindes neyghbours And the third and that not the least was for the maintenaÌ„ce of the Ghospel Red-scarf You haue heer alleadged sundrie reasons to haue caused Queen Elizabeth to take the Hollanders partes it is reason then that If so bee I cannot allow them for sufficient reasons I prooue them not so to bee which by your patience permission I think I shal be able to do The first point is about their beeing oppressed and wronged by the King of Spayn and in danger to bee broght vnder the seueritie of a Spanish inquisition That these people lyued in obedience of King Phillip the second of Spayn as did all the other inhabitants of the seuenteen Netherland Prouinces acknowledging him as their true lawfull Soueraigne Lord as they had acknowledged his anceters before him from whome hee successyuely inherited those countries no man can make anie doubt or questioÌ„ The question then is whether this King when he came to the possessioÌ„ of these countries did impose vpon the people anie pressures more then his former ancesters had donne but who is able to shew that he did The sayd King beeing then in as full and quiet possession of all those countries as euer anie of his ancesters had bin departing from thence towards Spayn in
and Spagniards both by sea and land and enuasions euen in Portugall and Spayn it self whereof people may remayn more sensible then of an vnefectuall Armada yet hath not anie English Ambassador or anie other of the English nation bin by Spagniards in Spayn barbarously abused but I am ashamed euen for the honor of our nation to repeat how Spanish Ambassadors and other Spagniardes haue bin vsed in England As for the sundrie benefits which the commerce and traficque between England and Spayn hath broght vnto our countrie and nation I doubt not but manie of our marchants seafaring men and others wil confesse and farre more profit and benefit wil no doubt ensue the moste honorable and great alliance now expected But let vs come to our good neyghbours and friendes the Hollanders and consider of the gratefull goodnes and benefits which wee reap by them that thereby wee may know how wel and wysely wee are aduysed to esteem them for our good Neyghbours and friendes and so friendly sticking vnto them That wee haue for aboue these fiftie yeares taken their partes is sufficiently known that the people of England haue often tymes generally smarted by the great pressures and parlamental payments imposed vpon them by Queen Elizabeth to vphold these friendes and neyghbours withall is lykewise wel enough known as also that great boundance of English blood hath bin shed in their quarrel an infinite number of Englishmennes lyues lost whose courage and valour was woorthie of more honor then in their base and dishonorable seruice could bee deserued and now when all comes to all they are so farre from honest ciuillitie that they will not acknowledge anie friendship donne them and therefore can they not entertayn anie thoghts of obligation or gratitude nay they dare playnly tel vs that wee are beholding vnto them which is asmuch to say as that they expect gratitude at our handes Tawney scarf In deed I must confesse I haue heard them affirme that our assisting them was to free our selues from warre in our own countrie by meanes of Spanish enuasioÌ„ which may carrie some reasoÌ„ Red-scarf But what reason was there why wee should haue anie feare of Spanish enuasion then onlie for our taking their partes against their true and lawfull Soueraigne the King of Spayn Tawney-scarf I must remayn your debter for the giuing you a reason heerof vntil I am able to do it Red-scarf But I must tel you further that they do not onlie deny all gratitude where it is due and vniustly claym it where they ow it but passing further beyond the limits of reason and humanitie they discouer themselues to bee such monsters as to beare a verie diuellish hatred both vnto our nation and to our moste gratious Soueraigne himself Against our natioÌ„ their actious declare it against our Soueraigne their vilanous tounges Of their moste vile and contemptible vsage of our nation in the East-Indies I shal not heer need to speak the letters written by our marchants and others from thence do declare it Their vsage of vs in Groon-land and the vndooing of our long continued trade in Muscouie I wil also omitt but wee fynd that they are the verie caterpillers and desroyers of our comon welth by all the wayes and meanes they can deuise for they haue not onlie by meanes of their corespondent countriemen conueyed and drawn by stelth our gold and siluer out of the Realme but they haue broght the whole Realme in a generall decay of traficque to the empouerishing and vndooing of thow sandes of the inhabitaÌ„ts as all that deal in clothing in all partes of the Realme wil confesse As for their vilanous speeches against our Soueraigne I could name vnto you that Englishman who passing not long since between Rotterdam and the Hage and hearing some of those varlets speake il of his Maiestie which hee beeing an EnglishmaÌ„ could not endure hee as it became him did in good manner reprehend them for it but straight-wayes a couple of them drew their knyues vpon him to haue stabbed him and so had they donne had they not bin hild kept back by others there present wee haue a proverb that it is better for some to steal a hors then some to look on What detriments endure wee by Spagniards where do they bynd vs hand and foot and cast vs ouer Indian rockes lyke dogges Where vndo they our trade how empouerish they our countrie where raile they vpon our Soueraigne Are wee in our right wittes I wonder when wee resolue to go to shed our blood for those that suck our blood when wee fight for those at home that kil vs abroad mee thinks purging with Heleborus were fitter now a dayes to bee taken in vse of our countrimeÌ„ then the smoak-drinck of driueling Tobacco Tawney-scarf For Godes loue le ts haue no more of this least you driue mee in a desperate mood to turne Spanish with you and so discredit my self with my friendes that expect mee in Holland Red-scarf Nay Sir you should by your so dooing giue a good ensample for those friends to follow Tawney-scarf I haue serued some yeares alredie in Holland and haue past my woord and promis to some friends of myn there to return back vnto them agayn to the seruice of the States Red-scarf I could then wish that both you and they would resolue to serue them as they oght to bee serued such tricks I meane as might revenge some of the vilanies and wronges they haue offred vs. Tawney-scarf I gesse at your meaning but it concurres not with my resolution you know theare is a precept that willeth to do good for evil Red-scarf That is wel donne where evil is thereby amended but your dooing good where you do it makes evil become woors But let mee now returne to speak somthing of Queen Elizabethes reason to take the Hollanders partes And first I must tel you that Queen Elizabeth did neuer take their partes vpon compassion of their cause in regard of anie wrong which shee knew the King of Spayn to do them for shee could not but know them to be as verie notorious rebelles as euer were anie in the world therefore was her assistence not giuen because shee loued them but because shee hated the King of Spayn and so made vse of them as the instruments of her hate Tawney-scarf Then must there bee cause why shee hated the King of Spayn and hating him shee had reason to favor and foster those that hated him as wel as her self Red-scarf I pray Sir for the instruction of my ignorance tel mee the cause why shee hated him Tawney-scarf The cause I cannot tel you but cause I must imagine there was Red-scarf You can know no iust cause nor anie man els but you say you must imagine there was a cause but this must is not forcecible vnlesse it were a cleere case that neuer anie man were causelesly hated But to tel you the true cause why in deed shee haâ—ed
him it was no other then for dooing her good Tawney scarf That mee thinkes is impossible Red scarf Impossible onlie to good and gratefull myndes The King of Spayn in her sister Queen Maries tyme did her no lesse good then the saving of her lyf and experience hath often shewed that there are some kynd of people that can neuer abyde those that they are verie deeply beholding vnto because they think the obligation of gratitude to bee a bondage whereas want of gratitude when it consisteth in the wil and not in the power is monstrous and not humayn Tawney scarf That the king of Spayn saued her lyf can hardly bee prooueed for albeit shee was imprisoned in her sisters tyme yet shee was neuer broght to anie publyke triall and so there was no saving of her lyf needfull shee not beeing by law found giltie Red-scarf If it had come to that it had gon hard with her but the King of Spayn preuented it and thereby not onlie saued her lyf but also her honor Tawney-scarf But how is this prooued Red-scarf That there were diuers conspiracies of treason in her sisters tyme is evident that shee was apprehended and put in prison vpon them is evident that shee was the onlie hope obiect of the conspiraâ—ors is evident and that some of them accused her is also evident for religion her troobles were not because shee made profession of the religion of her sister and daylie heard Masse Some cause there must bee of her apprehension which must also bee some great cause for no small cause can vrge the calling in question and apprehension of the sister of a Queen regnant and her next and apparent heyre But I wil leaue the belief of this to your own leasure pleasure when you shal haue better thoght vpon it or better enformed your self about the matter Tawney-scarf I accept of that libertie but in the meane tyme I must tel you that I must yet put you to your trumpes about the greatest and moste important cause of Queen Elizabethes our natioÌ„s fauouring assisting the Hollanders which was the cause of religion they professing with vs one same Ghospel Red-scarf I doubt whether they professe with vs one same Epistle but one same Ghospel I am sure they professe not Tawney-scarf I pray what differs their Ghospel froÌ„ ours Red-scarf Is there no difference between Protestants and Puritanes Tawney-scarf Not much Red-scarf Why haue wee then so much coÌ„tended about so litle a difference why haue so manie bookes bin written by those of the one and the other syde one against another why restraints of preaching why imprisonment of somanie of the bretheren why punishments with death and exile Tawney-scarf I graunt you some seditious and vurulie tounged fellowes haue smarted Red-scarf Had it bin wel donne to defend such Tawney-scarf No. Red-scarf More then such our countrimeÌ„ defeÌ„d in Holland for your Gomarists in Holland those I meane that are of the States peculiar religion are more seditious and vurulie tounged followes then are our English Gomarists I meane our Puritanes who are iust of the same inward illumination of spirit as are their deerest bretheren the Gomarists of Holland differing onlie in name but not in mynde or nature Heer at home you seeme not willing to defend such vurulie tounged fellowes yet you go from hence into Holland to fight for them But these fellowes are yet more vurulie tounged then our Puritanes for they go farther then to the making of Pettie Popes and Pettie Antichristes of our Bishops Seeing they wil make whosoeuer it bee beeing a mortal creature taking vpon him the name or title of Supreame head or gouernor of the Churche to bee no lesse then an Idol and those that giue vnto him such title to bee no lesse theÌ„ Idolaters Behold what one same Ghospel this is with the Ghospel of Queen Elizabeth seeing the Hollanders thereby do make herself an Idol and all her clergie and magistrates Idolaters and I pray consider whether pietie or conscience could moue her to defend that Ghospel and religioÌ„ abroad which shee persecuted at home as holding it to bee vngodly seditious marck but the absurditie heerof But how had Queen Elizabeth seen her self rewarded if these good Ghospellers had in her tyme so wyde opened their budget as to let her see their making making of herself an Idol her prelates who Puritanes did but make Pettie Popes pettie Antichristes to bee no better then Idolaters Tawney-scarf I pray let vs alter our discours and talck no more of these matters Red-scarf That in deed is the best remedie to auoyd reply vnto a matter wherevnto no reply can bee found But I pray giue mee leaue to end the matter I am about and then wee will fall to what other discours you wil. Fawney-scarf Me thinkes their hath enough alredie bin sayd to turne a mannes appetyt froÌ„ Holland cheese Red-scarf But I am verie desyrous to let you vnderstand the effects of your endeuours to the end you may the more esteeme the value of your deserts And perhaps I may say somthing that the companie heer present hath not as yet heard of therefore may out of curisositie receaue contentment therein Tawney-scarf Mee thinkes you cannot say woors of the Hollanders then you haue alredie donne therefore the best may follow seeing the woorst is gon before Red-scarf Bee it better or bee it woors you may please to accept of it as it is seeing it is the residue remayning behynd belonging to the former matter You must vnderstand that I am not ignorant that manie of our nation who deuote themselues to the seruice of the Hollanders think their endeuours directly employed for the maintenance of one same religion with that of England wherein I haue heer cleerly prooued them to bee deceaued But now will I go further and as cleerly prooue vnto you that you do aswell defend Lutheranisme Anabaptisme and Iudaisme as the Holland Religion that you supposed to haue bin all one with yours You must consider that the Holland rebelles at the beginning of their rebellion to the end they might fortefy themselues with all sortes and sectes made open profession that according to the Ghospel all men oght to haue their consciences free and that no man for his religion oght to bee called in question or troobled by meanes whereof the religions and beliefs in Holland are grown to bee infinit euerie maÌ„ making choyce to bee of what religion hee list and if hee list not chuse anie of the relâ—gioÌ„s that are alredie made to his had hee may make one of his own deuysing and draw as manie vnto it as hee can hee may leaue it of and make or chuse another in steed thereof or leaue all religious and bee of none if he please and boldly make his profession so to bee But the high Powerfull Lordes the States notwithstanding they allow all this freedome to the generalitie yet they allow free
exercise of religioÌ„ but to the fowre sortes afore-named to wit to the profession of their own Geus or Caluinian religioÌ„ To that of the LutheraÌ„s to that of the Anabaptists to that of the Synagogue of the Iewes none of all which religâ—oÌ„s beeing allowed in EnglaÌ„d but beeing by authoritie of the States allowed in Holland whosoever employeth himself in defeÌ„ce of that vsurped State Gournment doth consequeÌ„tly defend these fowre different religious aswel all fowre as anie one He defendeth that Caluinisme that maketh either Prelate or Prince that hath the title of Supreame headship or Gouernment of the Churche to bee an Idol Hee defendeth Lutheranisme that holdeth the real presence of Christe to bee in the Sacrament euen the verie same bodie that was borne of the blessed Virgin Marie Hee defendeth Anabaptisme that holdeth it vnlawfull to Baptise children and among other heresies teacheth that Christe took no flesh of the Virgin Marie And hee defendeth Iudaisme that denyeth our Sauiour Christe to bee the true Messias and Sauiour of the world for if by force of armes the state of these States were not defended these different sectes could haue in Holland no allowance of free exercise of religion Now besydes these allowed exercising sectes there is the late risen sect of the Pe fectists which as it seemeth needeth no leaue or allowance of exercise because it is come to such perfection that it is past exercise These bee such as haue bin great travailers in the woord and continual goers to sermons and fynding that S. Paule speaketh of some that are alwayes learning and neuer attayning vnto the knowledge of the truthe they wil not bee accompted such truants or non proficientes as stil to haue need of teaching and instruction they perceaue by their inward illumination of spirit that they are come to the rypenes of perfection they haue made trial thereof by their examining one another aswell about the exposition of textes as of their text-fastnes in citing chapter and verse without mistaking it as redelie yea and some tymes more redelie then the Preacher himself whereby they see themselues somuch to haue profited that they haue no need to run vp and down after sermon-makers but leaue them to the instructing teaching of the ignorant These now and then meet together among themselues and consolate one another in the Lord with singing of Psalmes discoursing out of the woord according to the perfection greatnes of their knowledge Where are our poor Puritanes in respect of these that all the dayes of their lyues run vnsatisfied with sermon-hearing behold how these Holland brethereÌ„ haue gotten the start of them and leaue them to remayn the perpetual prentises of their sermon-makers Tawney-scarf Mee thinkes you haue drawn out the reconiug of my seruice which is greater then my self vnderstood it to bee Red-scarf Greater but not better for I suppose you vnderstood it not to bee so il but beeing so good as you supposed it to wit to bee employed in defence of the Ghospel it could bee but bad because no good Ghospel can allow stealing Tawney scarf No more doth that for they hang thieues as wel in Holland as they do in England Red-scarf Thieues that steal try fles are there haÌ„ged by thieues that steal whole prouinces citties so as they are not hanged because they steal but because they steal not fioÌ„ the King of Spayn as thogh it were honester theft for a man to robbe his master then to robbe another man Tawney-scarf You haue exceedingly disgraced my seruice Red-scarf Not with intention to disgrace your self but to let you see how vniust and wroÌ„g a cours both you and others take to the end that knowing it you they may relinquish it and make choyce of a cours more agreable to your woorthinesses and valour Tawney-scarf But now Sir I must tel you concerning your choyce of seruice that if wee had one of our preachers heer hee would tel you that it were in desence of Idolatrie Red scarf If hee did so and could prooue it so I would aske God forgiuenes leaue it but that is hee not able to prooue Tawney-scarf Hee would tel you that you woorshiped bread in the Masse for the bodie of Christe Red-scarf If wee so did that were Idolatrie in deed Wee do not in anie sorte intend anie woorship vnto bread all the deuotion woorship and honor which there wee doe is meerly sincerly intended vnto the true bodie of Christ the which if it should not bee there then is there no woorship or honor at all by vs intended But our warrant for the beeing thereof there is so great that it is not deryued from the mouth of anie mortall man but euen from the verie mouth of him that is Christe and God who cannot possiblie deceaue vs neither can his power bee insufficient to make good his own woordes and if it were possible that it could bee but bread yet hee having sayd it was his bodie and I belieuing it so to bee his â—ustice goodnes is such that hee cannot condemne mee of misbelief himself having bin the cause why I so belieue for if hee neuer had sayd it I had neuer belieued it I can do Christe no greater honor then to giue credit vnto his woordes nor no greater dishonor then not to belieue them to bee veritable Tawney-scarf But Sir our Learned men say that Christes woordes at his last supper oght otherwise to bee interpreted not vnderstood as hee there spake them but that in saying the bread was his bodie hee inteÌ„ded to haue it vnderstood to bee the signe or figure of his bodie Red-scarf They that pretend to prooue all their doctrine by scripture do consequently oblige themselues to shew vs wherein scripture it is sayd that Christe ment it for the signe or figure of his bodie If they haue this knowlege by inward illumination how can they let vs know that it is of God Tawney-fcarf I do not remembr to haue heard anie text of Scripture alleaged for it And for inward illuminations I know not what to say Red-scarf That Christe ment it for the figure of his bodie is Caluinistical Anabaptistical scripture made without book but in sacred scripture not to bee fouÌ„d as for their inward illuminatioÌ„s what caÌ„ they bee other theÌ„ such dreames as all other sectaries are as full of as they caÌ„ say aswel as they that they had theÌ„ froÌ„ aboue perhapsly not altogether neither for it may bee that such fancies came in their heades when they were in their garrets And yet was the inward illumination of Loy the Slater of Antwerp in lyklyhood more higher for hee as hee sayd had his as he sat aboue on the top of a how 's couering it with slate and it was that there were no devilles no hel nor no resurrection of the dead and that Christe his Apostles meÌ„tioning such thinges ment otherwise theÌ„ they spake and in