the Legars do you not thinke that if he mought haue been at his owne choise he would not haue beene rather in the Armye of the Legars then where he now is Latt I cannot deny vnto you but it is very likely but what can you tell if afterwards he changed his minde Arch. Now certeinly I cannot tell but I beleeue it not neither doe I thinke it well that the head of the Church should be handled in this manner Latt Let vs see then is not a man that may auoyde mischiefe bound to doe it Arch. Who doubts that Latt Should not hee bee blame worthie that should giue another cause to doe ill Arch. He should be in the same fault for Qui causam damni dat damnum dedisse videtur Latt You say verie well then behold the Pope either is there with his will or against his will if with his will then is all well that you complaine of but if against his will then tell me wherfore would hee bee with the Armie of the Leagers Arch. Why that 's plaine to reuenge himselfe of the insolency and hurtes he had receaued Latt Let vs then see what would haue falne out Arch. What could haue ensued but much discord wars murders and damage through Christendome Latt Then to auoid these so apparant mischiefs do you not thinke it better that hee should bee in the power of the Emperor then elswhere albeit hee should bee there against his will according to that we talked of before touching the Sunne that kept his Father tied and if the Emperour would haue let him goe where himselfe liste should not the euilles haue beene iustlye imputed to the Emperor that would haue ensued seeing hee gaue the cause thereof Arch. I confesse this too but what will all both great small say but that the Emperour holdes the Pope and Cardinals prisoners Latt This will ignorant persons say whose iudgement it is impossible to satisfie whereas the wise and prudent knowing it to bee for the good of Christendome that the Pope should remaine in the power of the Emperour will hold it and account it verie wel done and wil highly praise the vertue and wisedome of his Maiestie yea euen all Christendome may thinke themselues perpetuallie bounden for it Arch. As for mee I could bee well content that he should bee wheresoeuer yee would haue him so as they would giue me the possession of my benefices but I cannot tell whether you consider how they stand excommunicate Latt And why so Arch. Because they haue apprehended and hold against his will the chiefe Pastor of the Church Latt Behold sir hee standes excommunicate that with a wicked meaning wil not obey the Church But hee that for the common weale of all Christendome deteineth the people and wil not let him lose onely to auoid the euils which would follow vppon his deliuery Beleeue mee hee doth not onely stand not excommunicate but also meriteth much at Gods handes for it Archd. Surely this is a thing verie likely and reasonable but I know not whether our Cannonists would graunt you this Latt That Cannonist that will not graunt this shall shew himselfe void of iudgement Arch. I beleeue so too but at one thing I was verie greatly displeased that the Pope should presently giue pardon to all the Soldiers of all whatsoeuer they had done Latt And why are you agreeued at that Arch. Because they remaine all ritch and pardoned and wee bewailing our losses and sorrowes Latt Do you thinke that pardon of valiew as much did hee to the Collonesi hee pardoned them first but after destroied them A gentle kind of pardon Archd. I cannot tell what I may beleeue but that their soules were absolued and their purses damned Latt Why then did you not stand against it Arch. Yes euen there about wee went to leaue our Skinne with our goods thinges stood then in these tearmes that you would pardon all past for that that was to come if you had seene the Pope as I saw him Latt Where Arch. In the Castle Latt And why went you thether Arch. Ther were certaine benefices falne in my Countrey by the death of an neighbour of mine and I went to demaund them Latt An extraordinarie boldnesse was this surely Were you not ashamed in such a time to importune him with sutes Arch. No surelie for a shamefast man the Deuill will soone chase out of the Pallace and manie more were there to begge them aswell as I and sure I had as leeue preuent as bee preuented Latt Well I tell you againe that most terrible is the Auarice of the Clergie Arch. A wonderous matter I promise you and wherefore do you suppose do wee of the Clergie come to Rome Latt I thought it had beene for deuotion Arch. Yes iwis nowe surelye I was neuer in my life lesse deuoute Latt Nor yet lesse a Christian Arch. Well Sir euen as it please you so let it be Latt On my word if I had beene Pope you should not haue benefices onely for early rising seeing that after so notable a persequution you had not left your couetousnesse Arch. Yea euen for this is God very good that he would not giue vs you but Clement the 7. who gaue it me presently with a very good will although I went in the habit of a Souldier as you see me Latt Nowe I promise you this was euen an immesurable clemencie but tell me how found you him Arch. I found both him and all the rest of the Cardinals and others about him so sad and sorrowfull that euen in beholding of them the teares burst out of mine eyes He that had seene him goe in his triumphe with so many Cardinals Bishops protonotaries a foote and himselfe caried in a seat borne by men bestowing vpon vs all his holy blessings that he seemed euen a thing diuine and now to see him solitarye sad afflicted comfortlesse committed to a Castle and that aboue all is in the power and handes of his ennemies and besides all this to see the Bishops and other persons Ecclesiasticall that came to visite him to be all in Souldiers apparell and that euen in Rome the head of the Church should not haue a man that durst go in the habit of an ecclesiasticall person I know not what hart can bee so indurate that hearing these things should not bee persed with compassion Latt Immeasurable God how profound are thy iudgements with how great clemencye dost thou suffer vs with howe great goodnes dost thou call vs with how great patience dost thou tarrie vs whilst that we with the continuation of our sinnes do prouoke against our selues euen the rigor of thy Iustice and consequentlie both in the one and in the other dost shewe vs thy mercie infinit goodnes for all o Lord we yeeld thee infinit thanks knowing that thou dost it not but for our great good for he that had seen the maiesty of that Roman court such and so great Cardinals Bishops such
wil not passe by without speaking whosoeuer he bee Tell me Gentleman are you a brother to the Archdeacon of Viso Arch. What Segnior Lattantio haue you so soone forgotten mee it appeares Fortune quickly chaungeth mens knowledge Latt What say you now I see you are the Archdeacon himselfe indeede Arch. Yea sir to do you seruice Latt Who could know you comming as now you do you were woont to weare your garmentes one longer then another trailing on the ground your cappe after the Ecclesiasticall maner your seruants and reuerend Mule but now I see you on foot alone a short cote with a thred bare Frisado cape a great sword and a Souldiers hat besides all this a long beard and your haire and head without any signe of Crowne who could haue knowen you Arch. Who sir Euen he that knowes the habit by the man and not the man by the habit Latt Well if the memorie haue erred it is no reason good-will should paie for that fault which in me hath verie seldom diminished But tell mee as God helpe you sir how comes this chaunge Arch. What haue you not heard what hath happened at Rome lately Latt Yes I haue heard some thing but what concernes the busines of Rome the chaunge of your garmentes Arch. Seeing you aske that question it appeares you know not al for then you should haue knowen that ther is not in Rome a man that dare passe the streets in habit of an Ecclesiastical person Latt What tell you mee Arch. I tell you that when I came from Rome the persequution against the Clergie was so great that there was not a man that durst walke the streetes in habit of a Clarke or a Frier Latt O merueilous God how incomprehensible are thy Iudgements But sir I pray you were you within Rome at that time when the Emperours armie entred Arch. Yea for my sinnes I was found or rather lost there for of all that euer I had I haue nothing left but that you see Latt Wherfore did you not commit your selfe to the Spanish souldiours and thereby haue saued your goods Arch. My sinnes daunted my wittes and my vnhappie lot was to fall among the Almans where I thought it no little gaine to escape with life out of their handes Latt Is all true wee heare from thence and that men report here Arch. I know not what you heare nor what you say of it but I can assure you it was the most terrible thing that euer man saw I know not how you take it here it seemes to mee you make no great accompt of it But on my soule I know not whether God will so dissemble it and if wee were in some other place where it were lawfull for me to speake I would vtter foule and terrible matters with this mouth Latt Against whom Arch. Against him that hath done more mischiefe against the Church of God then euer Turke or Pagan durst haue done Latt But soft sir Archdeacon it may be that you are deceaued and lay the fault wher it is not between vs any thing may passe tell me therefore franckly your minde and I will so endeuour to open vnto you your error that you shall not blame him that is not blame worthie Arch. I am content to open plainly vnto you my mind in this matter but not here in the Market place let vs goe into this Church of S. Frauncis and there we wil discourse at our leisure Latt Agreed let it be so Arch. Now that we are where we may talke and none heare vs I pray you sir whatsoeuer passeth betweene vs let no other man be priuie of it for Princes are Princes and no wisedome for men to put themselues in perill where they neede not Latt Hereof you may be well assured Arch. Let vs then see Signior Lattantio doth it seeme vnto you a matter tollerable that the Emperour hath done in Rome that which neuer Infidels had done and that for his perticuler passion and to reuenge himselfe of I wat not what hath in such sort sought to distroy the Sea Apostolique with the greatest Ignominie and with greater Contempt and greater crueltie than euer was heard or seene I know that the Gothes tooke Rome but yet they medled not with the Church of S. Peeter they medled not with the Reliques of the Sainctes they medled not with the sacred and holie thinges But whereas those halfe Christians had this respect now our Christians albeit I know not whether they bee worthie of that name they haue not forborne Churches they haue not forborne Monasteries they haue not forborne the sacred thinges they haue violated all they haue robbed all they haue profaned all that I wonder the earth hath not opened and swallowed them vp those also that sent them or consented vnto it What thinke yee now will the Turkes the Moores the Iewes and the Lutherans say seeing the head of the Church thus handled O God that suffrest such a thing Oh God that consentest to so great a wickednes Was this the defence that the Apostolike Sea hoped from hir defendor was this the honor that Spaine hoped for of hir so mightie king was this the glorie was this the good was this the Amplification and enlargement that all Christendome hoped was it for this that his great Graundfathers got the title of Catholicke For this cause did they ioyne so many Kingdomes and Seignories vnto the rule of one Lord for this was hee elected Emperour for this did the Bishop of Rome helpe him to thrust out the French out of Italie To the end that in one day he should destroy al that their predecessors with so great trauels and in such a multitude of years had founded So many and such goodly churches such Monasteries such Hospitals and Chappels where God was woont to bee serued and honoured to be now defaced and profaned So manie Altars yea euen in the Church of the Prince of the Apostles embrued with bloud so many Reliques robbed and with sacrilegious handes profaned For this cause did their predecessors adioine so great holinesse to this cittie For this did they honor the Church with such and so many reliques For this did they bestow on them so many ritch ornamentes of Gold and Siluer that in the end hee should come without remorse to rob deface and destroy al Oh Soueraigne God is it possible that so great a crueltie so great an outrage so abhominable boldnes so horrible an accident and so execrable a wickednesse can passe without some most rigorous most grieuous and most notorious punishment I know not what feeling you haue here of it or if you haue any I merueile how ye can let it passe or dissemble it Latt I heare attentiuely all that you haue said and in truth albeit I heare the like vttered of that matter by manie yet mee thinkes you make it more foule and blame it more then any other and in all that you haue spoken it seems to me you are very
conuert you and therfore permitted those Souldiers that sacked Rome with Don Hugo and also that the Collonesi should make that assault whereof your selfe now complaine for seeing that all were now become shamelesse and the behauiour and course of life they all held he sought to make them doe that for feare of loosing their liues which for feare of destroying their soules they would not do And God seeing that there was no other way left to deliuer his Children from perdition he hath done with you euen as your selfe said you would haue done with the Scholemaister of the Children which should infect them with his vices and would not amend Arch. It may bee as you say but what had the image committed what offences had the Reliques done or the dignities or the honest and good people which were also robbed and ill intreated Latt I pray you report me the matter euen as it passed seeing you were there present and I will tell you the cause as I thinke why God permitted euerie of those thinges that yee shall trulie recompt vnto me Arch. Great reason yee haue surely in all this that you haue said I shal with a verie good will do that you haue required and heare whatsoeuer you wil say with a much better You are therefore to know that the Emperours Armie hauing left their Artillerie at Sena which was but a small quantitie with the greatest speed that euer was heard of marched euen to Rome and arriued there the fifth of May. Latt But what was the reason the Pope sent not to require some communication Arch. Nay the good Duke of Burbone sent to desire of the Pope that he would send some person with whom he might treat vpon his entrance into Rome But the Pope relying vppon his new league that he had made and the Armie of the leaguers hauing promised to come to his succors hee would not enter into any manner of communication And when the Armie knew this the very next day in the morning they resolued to assault the Citie And such was our ill fortune that euen at the beginning and within the Towne one with an Harquebuze happened to kill the good Duke of Burbone whose death was the cause of much ill Latt Surely it euen breakes my hart to heare of so vnhappy a death Arch. Our sinnes was the cause for if he had liued there had not bin so much mischiefe done Latt Now would to God you had not had those faultes but who euer heard that the sinnes of a Citie should cause their destruction that came to assaile them Arch. In this matter it may bee well said for the Duke of Burbone came not to conquere vs but to defende vs from his owne armie hee came not to sacke vs but to keepe vs that wee should not be sacked It is wee that had most cause to lament his death for himselfe there is no man but rather doth enuy him then pitie him for he lost his life with the greatest honor that euer did man by his death atteined that which a number of great Captains were neuer able to atteine so that the verie memorie of him wil be alwaies most honorable onely one thing greeueth me that is the peril of his soule dying excommunicate Latt And why excommunicate Arch. Because hee entred with an armed hand into the territories of the Church and sought to assaile the holy citie of Rome Latt Do you know what one decree saith to wit that manie are excommunicate by the Pope that are not excommunicate by God neither doth the Pope entend that he should be excommunicat that remaineth within the terrritories of the Church with intention to defend them and in al that he can to prouide that they should not receaue any damage as this Prince did Arch. Yee say truth neuerthelesse his first motion was voluntarie Latt Of this your selfe before verie wel declared the cause for hee was bound to defend the kingdome of Naples beeing by the Emperor made his lieftenant generall for all Italie neither went he to possesse the landes of the Church but to prohibite the Pope that he should not possesse the landes territories of the Emperour and to bring him to some vnitie and concord with his Maiestie Arch. Well let that be so but to returne to our purpose The Emperors armie was so desirous to enter Rome some to robbe and spoile others for the extreame hatred they bare to that court of Rome and some both for the one and the other cause that the Spaniards and Italians on the one side by scale And the Almanes on the other side by Pickaxes breaking downe the wall entred by the Burge on which side stands as you know the Church of Saint Peeter and the holy Pallace Latt Yea and a great manie of verie good houses of Cardinals Of one thing I verie much maruell that they within hauing Artillerie and those without hauing none how it was possible for them so easily to enter without the slaughter of an hundred onely of themselues But of you how many were slaine Arch. Sir you know how vncerteine reportes are alwaies in such like matters Some say Sixe thousand men but in truth there died not vpon the entrie aboue four thousand for imediatly they retired themselues into the Cittie and I tell you truth I should haue deemed this a verie great miracle if afterwarde I had not seene the same souldiers haue done that they did wherby I cannot beleeue that God would do so great a miracle for them Latt You are much deceaued for God did not this miracle for them but to punish and correct you Arch. Therein I beleeue you say the verie truth Latt I woonder after their Generall was slaine that they were not dismaied as commonly men are and so did not leaue the fight Arch. So was it surely but the death of this Generall inflamed them more and encreased their desire to enter the citie with greater furie then before Latt Yee tell mee woonders Arch. Surely so it was and this good duke of Burbone was so beleeued of all that euerie man desired himselfe to die or to reuenge the death of him Latt And therefore it was he me thinks that was cause of all that crueltie Arch. It is most likely to be so Lat. Oh mighty God how meruelous art thou in al thy works in each perticular how wonderfully discouerest thou thy power thou determinest that this good Duke should bee killed to the end that with the more rigor thy iustice should bee executed but let vs see where was the Pope all this while Arch. Euen in his owne Pallace and so carlesse that it was a woonder hee was not taken but seeing in how bad tearmes matters stood hee retired himselfe to the Castle of Saint Angelo with 13. Cardinals and other Bishops and principall persons which staied with him And presently the Ennemies entred and spoiled and sacked all that was in the Pallace and the like did they in
ill enformed and in my iudgement it is not reason but passion for that you haue lost that causeth you to vtter the same which you haue spoken I wil not speake passionately as you haue done for so should we spend speech without any Frute But without affectionate speeches I hope trusting in your discretiō good iudgement that before you part from me you shall plainlie vnderstand how much you haue bin deceaued in all that you haue yet saied onely I request you to be attentiue and not to forbeare to replie when you see cause to the end you may not rest in any doubt Arch. Say what you wil but I wil hold you for a greater Orator then Tullius if you be able to defend this cause Latt Nay I am content you shal accompt me the veriest idiot that is in the whole world if I defend it not and prooue my opinion to you with most cleere and euidēt reasons And the first thing I will prooue shall bee how the Emperoure was in no fauit for that which happened at Rome And secondly how all that happened ther came to passe by the manifest iust iudgement of God to correct and chastice that Citie wherein to the great slaunder of Christian Religion raigned al those vices that the wickednes of man could inuent and with that correction to awake the christian people to the end that those euils being remedied we might open our eies and liue like Christians seeing wee glorie so much in that name Arch. A great enterprise you haue taken in hand but how you wil goe through with it I see not Latt Concerning the first I must protest vnto you that no one thing of that which hereafter shal be said is by mee spoken in preiudice of the dignitie or person of the Pope For it is great reason that his dignitie be reuerenced of all men and touching his owne person surely I can speake no ill if I would Besides that it is well knowen that all which hee hath done hath not passed by his owne meanes but by meanes of the lewdnesse of some persons that he keepes about him And to the end that we the better vnderstād one another seeing this difference is betweene the Pope and the Emperour I pray you first declare vnto me what office that of the Popes is and likewise what is the office of the Emperour and to what ende or purpose these Dignities were first established Arch. It seemeth vnto me that the office or dutie of the Emperour is to defende his Subiectes and to maintaine them in great Peace and Iustice fauouring the good and chastising the ill Latt You say well but what is then that of the Pope Arch. That is more hard to declare for if wee behold the time of S. Peter it is one and in these daies another Latt But when I demaunde of you to what ende these dignities were ordeined it is ment that you should declare vnto mee their intention that did ordaine them Arch. Surely it seemes vnto mee it was ordeined to th ende this high Bishop should take on him the Aucthoritie to expounde the holie scriptures and to the end hee should enstruct the people in Christian doctrine not onely with woords but also with example of life and to the ende he should with teares and praiers make supplication continuallie vnto God for his Christian people and to take on him the supreame charge and power to absolue such as had sinned were desirous to conuert themselues to pronounce damnation against such as in their wicked liues remaine obstinate And to the ende that with continuall carefull endeuour hee should procure the maintenance of the Christian people in great peace and concord and to the end wee should haue here on earth such a one as should truelie and liuely represent vnto vs the life and holie custome of Iesus Christ our Redemer because the hartes of men are much more allured with workes then with words This is as much as I can gather out of the holie Scriptures if you haue anie thing else say it Latt This shall suffice at this present and see that you forget it not for we shall haue need thereof hereafter in his due time Arch. No I will not Latt Then if I shew you plainlie that because the Emperour hath done that which your selfe haue auerred to be his dutie And because the Pope hath refused to do that which on his part ought to haue bin done This distruction of Rome hath followed In whom will you then lay the fault Arch. If you could do this which I cannot beleeue then is it plaine to be the Popes fault Latt Then I pray you tel me your selfe seeing you say that the Pope was instituted to the ende hee should imitate Iesus Christ what do you think that Iesus Christ would rather maintaine his people in peace or to stir them vp and tormoile them in warres Arch. This is cleere that the Aucthor of Peace doth not detest any thing more then warre Latt Then let vs see how shall he bee the Imitator of Christ Iesu that stirred vp warres and dissolued peace Arch. Such an one should bee farre off from Imitation of Christ but to what end aske you mee this Latt I demaund it for this purpose that seeing the Emperor defending his Subiects as he is bound the Pope tooke armes against him and dissolued the peace and raised a new warre in Christendome neither the Emperour was in fault for the euils that succeeded seeing he did that which was his office and dutie Neither can the Pope be excused of the fault seeing hee did that he ought not haue doone in breaking the peace and raising a new warre in Christendome Arch. What peace did the Pope dissolue or what warre did he raise vp in Christendome Latt He dissolued the peace that the Emperour had made with the French king and hath stirred vp the warre which wee still haue whereby through the iust iudgement of God the mischeefe came vpon him which he hath receiued Arch. Oh Sir you make your account well but where haue you learned that the pope stirred vp the warre with the Emperour and that hee dissolued the peace made with the Frenche King Latt Because immediatly so soone as the French King was deliuered out of Prison he sent him a writte wherein he did absolue him of the othe which he had made vnto the Emperour to the end he should not be bound to accomplish that which hee had promised whereby more freelye hee might make warre vpon him Arch. But how knowe you this you speake as though you had bin of the Popes secret Councell Latt It is knowne by manie meanes but not to loose time looke vpon the beginning of the league that the Pope made with the Frenche king and you shall plainelie see that the Pope was the aduancer of it and seeing that this is so certaine a truth that euen the Pope himselfe confesseth it dooth it seeme vnto you
Church of stones wee should leaue to honor the Church of God which is our soule I would not that to build an altar we should forbeare to succour a poore bodie or to repaire tables or dead images we should leaue the poore naked which be the liuely images of Iesus Christ neither would I that we should lay so great a foundation on those things which we are not in any dutye bound to doe neither yet that we should giue men to vnderstand that the Lord is serued and pleased with the possession of these things that euery wiseman contemneth and holdeth a praise in himselfe not to esteeme Tell me whye did Iesus Christ contemne all the ritches and wealth of this world Arch. Because we should likewise by his example valew it as nothing Latt Why then do we seeke to present vnto him these things as matters very pretious and gratefull seeing himselfe we know contemned them and would also that we should contemne them and not rather take care to present our mindes and soules pure and cleere from all vices and sinnes this being the most pretious and acceptable offering that we can present Arch. I muse who should teach you so many arguments being yet so young Latt Then behold sir it hath pleased God therefore to suffer these churches to be thus robbed that we might euidently know that he esteemeth as nothing all such things as may be robbed neither yet dooth he esteeme any thing corruptible to the end that heereafter we may rather present vnto him liuing then dead temples And that we should offer vp vnto him hartes and wils before gold and siluer and that we serue him with such things as he commaundeth rather then with such vanitie Arch. Yea tell mee a thing that I neuer heard of but seeing it is so tell mee howe and wherewith wee ought to serue him Latt This is an other matter a part whereof we may conferre an other tune more at our good leisure but nowe I praye you proceed on Arch. Euen as you will but what will you saye that the very temples where God was woont to be serued and honoured were become stables for Horsses what a thing was it to see the verye Church of Saint Peter both on the one side and the other all full of Horses euen to thinke of it it breakes my harte Latt Certainelye it was a thing that no good man could like of and yet many times we see that necessitie causeth things that by the lawe is prohibited and in time of warre these and farre woorse matters are commonly doone whereof they are in fault that are the cause of the warre Arch. This is a gentle excuse Latt And why not and doe you not also thinke that hee that draweth a greater and woorse filthinesse then that into a place more holy then that dooth hee not commit a greater abhomination Arch. This is cleere Latt Then tell mee if you haue read the holy Scripture haue yee not founde in it that God dwelleth not in Temples builded with the handes of men and that euery man is that temple wherein God dwelleth Arch. Yes sometimes Latt Then tell me which should be the greater ill and abhomination to make a stable of those Temples of stone where the Apostle saith God dwelleth not or to make it of our soules which are the true temples of God Arch. This is cleere that of our soules were the woorse but how can that be Latt Demaunde you howe whye what call you a Stable Arch. A place where Beasts rest Latt But what call you Beasts Arch. Brute Beasts without reason Latt And are not vices brute and voide of reason Arch. Yes without doubt and much woorse then brute beasts Latt Thus is it manifest that it is farre greater abhomination to bring vices that are much woorse then brute Beasts into the Soule which is the true Temple where God dwelleth then to bring horses into a Church of stone Arch. Surely I thinke that true Latt Heereby may you now knowe how blinde your vnderstanding was in Rome that meeting daily by the streetes men that manifestly had their soules the stables of vices of that you made no accoumpt and because you sawe in case of necessitie horsses in the Church of Saint Peter you thought it an horrible abhomination and broke your hart to thinke on it And yet your harte was neuer broken to see such multitude of Soules full of such filthie and abhominable sinnes and God by whome they were made and redeemed banished out of them surely your religion is a gentle religion Arch. You haue great reason but yet consider I praye you that which Saint Paule spake that God dwelleth not in Temples made with handes of men was to be vnderstanded of that time wherein he spake it for since and now in our Temples the Sacrament abideth Latt You say truth but haue not you confessed vnto me that vices are woorse then beasts Arch. Yea and so I say still Latt Why then he that bringeth into the Church a heard of vices that are worse then Beasts is hee not worse then he that bringeth into the church a troope of Horsses Arch. It seemes so to me but these beasts are inuisible Latt What will you say that God cannot see mens vices Arch. Yes God can see them but men cannot but these horsses we may all see Latt By this reason ye would make it a lesse abhomination to offend God then men and then yee would excuse the offence committed in appearing before God so burdened with wickednesse because men see it not you aggrauate greatly the putting of Horses into the Church in that time of necessitie because they are visible vnto men But marke sir I pray you God is not offended with the bad sauors wherewith men are offended The Soule wherein vices are rooted that is it wherewith God is offended and therefore hee requireth that this soule bee most cleere of vices and sinnes and many times he hath so commaunded vs. And therefore yee take all things the wrong way ye take great care to keepe neate and cleane the materiall Temples and the true Temple of God which is your soules you keepe it so full of vices and abhominable sinnes that they neither see God nor know what thing he is Arch. Now as God saue me you haue the greatest reason in the world but if you had seene the Souldiers how they carried along the streetes the poore Nunnes taken out of their monasteries and other Virgins taken out of their Fathers houses you would haue had the greatest compassion in the world Latt This is a matter so common among Souldiers and men of warre that albeit in mine opinion it be indeed much more greeuous then all the rest ioyned together we make scarslie any accoumpt of it as if it were not worse to defile a Virgin which is the liuing temple where Iesus Christ dwelleth then a church of stone or wood wherefore the fault heereof must not onely bee laid to
I trouble my head with these profound matters Latt And how profound which thinke you of greatest valew either the soule of some simple bodie or the body of a Saint Arch. This is out of question that a soule is much better then a body Latt Why then what reason haue you in seeking to honor the body of some saints as they say which perhaps notwithstanding is the boddy of some theefe to put in perrill so many soules Arch. You say the trueth and therefore may they very well thereof admonish the ignorant and simple sort Latt Very well and yet euen these that should admonish are many times themselues ignorant And yet besides all this why should you put any one soule in danger without necessitie Let vs see if you would in this Towne goe to our Ladies church of Prado and knew not the waye would you not thinke it a verye great inhumanity if any man would direct you through the Riuer with greate daunger to drowne you therein when you might more safelye and more quickelye haue gone ouer by the Bridge Arch. Yes surely Latt And wherefore then do you seeke after Reliques Arch. Because many times they stir me to deuotion Latt And deuotion to what end desire you Arch. To salue my soule Latt Seeing then you may saue your Soule without perill of damning it woulde you not rather choose the more safe waie Arch. Yes and our confessors also say it is a sinne for vs wittingly to put our selues in danger to sinne Latt They say therein the very truth Arch. But yet what way haue you of greater safetie Latt The same which Christ himselfe taught to loue God aboue all things and to put in him our whole trust Arch. You say the truth But because I cannot do that I go about to doe this other Latt This is a great heresie to say you cannot do it desire at least of God grace to doe it But if you will say you do request it and that God will not doe it you make God a lyar who saith Aske and you shall haue And farther what a blindnesse is this doe you thinke to goe to heauen without fulfilling of the commaundements of God albeit you haue an Arme of a Saint or the peece of the Crosse or the whole Crosse in your house you may be an enemie to the crosse and doe you thinke to saue your selfe by the Crosse Arch. Surely I was deceiued Latt Then behold the common sort haue so much more iust cause to complaine on them that lead them into these and such other like superstitions to put them in danger of their soules then you of him that should guide you through the riuer with danger to drowne you as the soule is more worthie then the bodie Arch. Well but yet the common sort are more easilye by things visible induced and directed to the inuisible Latt You say truely and therefore hath Iesus Christ left vs his holye sacrament of the Altar and hauing this I knowe not wherefore we haue need of any other Arch. And the true reliques indeed would you not haue them kept and garnished with Gold and Siluer Latt No surely Arch. Wherefore Latt Not to giue occasion of such another spoile as this of Rome nor yet to make men thinke that the Saints are pleased to possesse these things that those which are good men do glory to contemne Arch. You say well but doe you not see yet that the Saints may be offended with vs for taking away the Golde and siluer wherein their bones be inclosed and being so offended may doe vs some hurt Latt No rather I thinke they would be verie well pleased to see those thinges taken and imploied on the poore who many times perish for famin not hauing what to eate Arch. That vnderstand not I vnlesse you explaine your meaning better Latt I wil shew you plainly that Saint which whilest hee liued in this world and had need of these goods did neuerthelesse leaue them and empart them to the poore for the loue of Christ Iesu do you not beleeue that much more he would be pleased to haue the same done now after his death when he hath no cause at all to vse them Arch. Yes surely I think so for wee that be no Saintes yet when we die and cannot carrie our goods with vs wee are well pleased to giue them to the poore and to deuide them among Churches and Monasteries Lattan Why then tell mee wherefore should you thinke a Saint should bee greeued to haue that done with his goods now hee is dead which himselfe would haue done if he were aliue Arch. No surely I thinke a Saint would be verie wel pleased to see that done with his goods now he is dead which himselfe would haue done if he were aliue Latt Then you see plainly that the Saintes who while they liued were so wel pleased to distribute their owne goods among the poore would now much more bee pleased to helpe the poore with that siluer and gold which good people haue presented vnto them after they were dead Arch. So God saue me this reason is verie good and I beleeue you say herein also the verie truth and yet surely the common sort would be offended Lattan No on my faith I dare assure you there would bee no offence taken if it were prouided that such superstitious people as regarded more theire Bellye then the Glorie of Christ Iesus shoulde not goe aboute to prouoke them to offence Arch. Surely for this matter I hold my selfe fullie satisfied Lattan Thus you see how Iesus Christ hath suffred that in Rome so greate a Sacke and spoile should bee committed on Reliques to remedie the decâ—iptes that were committed by them Archde Well this I confesse so as you will also declare vnto mee touching the small reuerence vsed towardes the Images what the reason should bee that God would suffer that Latt That I will tell you neither will I denie that it was verie ill done but God hath permitted it not without verie great cause For you may see among the common people yea and euen among many of the principall persons also that they did so muche repose themselues vppon Images and thinges visible that they had no care at all of the inuisible In my Countrey a verie good Man a Deuine going a visitation of a Bishopricke in the behalfe of the Bishoppe founde in one Church an Image of our Ladie which they saide did manie Miracles and was set ouer against an Altar of the Sacrament in comparison whereof all Images in the Worlde are lesse then nothing And yet thereunto might you see them kneeling and knocking of their breastes before that Image of our Ladie The good man when hee saw so great an Ignominie as was thereby done to our Sauiour Iesus Christ conceiued so great a griefe as hee tooke away that Image and brake it into peeces The people so much were mooued with this act that they would haue killed him but GOD