wil not passe by without speaking whosoeuer he bee Tell me Gentleman are you a brother to the Archdeacon of Viso Arch. What Segnior Lattantio haue you so soone forgotten mee it appeares Fortune quickly chaungeth mens knowledge Latt What say you now I see you are the Archdeacon himselfe indeede Arch. Yea sir to do you seruice Latt Who could know you comming as now you do you were woont to weare your garmentes one longer then another trailing on the ground your cappe after the Ecclesiasticall maner your seruants and reuerend Mule but now I see you on foot alone a short cote with a thred bare Frisado cape a great sword and a Souldiers hat besides all this a long beard and your haire and head without any signe of Crowne who could haue knowen you Arch. Who sir Euen he that knowes the habit by the man and not the man by the habit Latt Well if the memorie haue erred it is no reason good-will should paie for that fault which in me hath verie seldom diminished But tell mee as God helpe you sir how comes this chaunge Arch. What haue you not heard what hath happened at Rome lately Latt Yes I haue heard some thing but what concernes the busines of Rome the chaunge of your garmentes Arch. Seeing you aske that question it appeares you know not al for then you should haue knowen that ther is not in Rome a man that dare passe the streets in habit of an Ecclesiastical person Latt What tell you mee Arch. I tell you that when I came from Rome the persequution against the Clergie was so great that there was not a man that durst walke the streetes in habit of a Clarke or a Frier Latt O merueilous God how incomprehensible are thy Iudgements But sir I pray you were you within Rome at that time when the Emperours armie entred Arch. Yea for my sinnes I was found or rather lost there for of all that euer I had I haue nothing left but that you see Latt Wherfore did you not commit your selfe to the Spanish souldiours and thereby haue saued your goods Arch. My sinnes daunted my wittes and my vnhappie lot was to fall among the Almans where I thought it no little gaine to escape with life out of their handes Latt Is all true wee heare from thence and that men report here Arch. I know not what you heare nor what you say of it but I can assure you it was the most terrible thing that euer man saw I know not how you take it here it seemes to mee you make no great accompt of it But on my soule I know not whether God will so dissemble it and if wee were in some other place where it were lawfull for me to speake I would vtter foule and terrible matters with this mouth Latt Against whom Arch. Against him that hath done more mischiefe against the Church of God then euer Turke or Pagan durst haue done Latt But soft sir Archdeacon it may be that you are deceaued and lay the fault wher it is not between vs any thing may passe tell me therefore franckly your minde and I will so endeuour to open vnto you your error that you shall not blame him that is not blame worthie Arch. I am content to open plainly vnto you my mind in this matter but not here in the Market place let vs goe into this Church of S. Frauncis and there we wil discourse at our leisure Latt Agreed let it be so Arch. Now that we are where we may talke and none heare vs I pray you sir whatsoeuer passeth betweene vs let no other man be priuie of it for Princes are Princes and no wisedome for men to put themselues in perill where they neede not Latt Hereof you may be well assured Arch. Let vs then see Signior Lattantio doth it seeme vnto you a matter tollerable that the Emperour hath done in Rome that which neuer Infidels had done and that for his perticuler passion and to reuenge himselfe of I wat not what hath in such sort sought to distroy the Sea Apostolique with the greatest Ignominie and with greater Contempt and greater crueltie than euer was heard or seene I know that the Gothes tooke Rome but yet they medled not with the Church of S. Peeter they medled not with the Reliques of the Sainctes they medled not with the sacred and holie thinges But whereas those halfe Christians had this respect now our Christians albeit I know not whether they bee worthie of that name they haue not forborne Churches they haue not forborne Monasteries they haue not forborne the sacred thinges they haue violated all they haue robbed all they haue profaned all that I wonder the earth hath not opened and swallowed them vp those also that sent them or consented vnto it What thinke yee now will the Turkes the Moores the Iewes and the Lutherans say seeing the head of the Church thus handled O God that suffrest such a thing Oh God that consentest to so great a wickednes Was this the defence that the Apostolike Sea hoped from hir defendor was this the honor that Spaine hoped for of hir so mightie king was this the glorie was this the good was this the Amplification and enlargement that all Christendome hoped was it for this that his great Graundfathers got the title of Catholicke For this cause did they ioyne so many Kingdomes and Seignories vnto the rule of one Lord for this was hee elected Emperour for this did the Bishop of Rome helpe him to thrust out the French out of Italie To the end that in one day he should destroy al that their predecessors with so great trauels and in such a multitude of years had founded So many and such goodly churches such Monasteries such Hospitals and Chappels where God was woont to bee serued and honoured to be now defaced and profaned So manie Altars yea euen in the Church of the Prince of the Apostles embrued with bloud so many Reliques robbed and with sacrilegious handes profaned For this cause did their predecessors adioine so great holinesse to this cittie For this did they honor the Church with such and so many reliques For this did they bestow on them so many ritch ornamentes of Gold and Siluer that in the end hee should come without remorse to rob deface and destroy al Oh Soueraigne God is it possible that so great a crueltie so great an outrage so abhominable boldnes so horrible an accident and so execrable a wickednesse can passe without some most rigorous most grieuous and most notorious punishment I know not what feeling you haue here of it or if you haue any I merueile how ye can let it passe or dissemble it Latt I heare attentiuely all that you haue said and in truth albeit I heare the like vttered of that matter by manie yet mee thinkes you make it more foule and blame it more then any other and in all that you haue spoken it seems to me you are very
conuert you and therfore permitted those Souldiers that sacked Rome with Don Hugo and also that the Collonesi should make that assault whereof your selfe now complaine for seeing that all were now become shamelesse and the behauiour and course of life they all held he sought to make them doe that for feare of loosing their liues which for feare of destroying their soules they would not do And God seeing that there was no other way left to deliuer his Children from perdition he hath done with you euen as your selfe said you would haue done with the Scholemaister of the Children which should infect them with his vices and would not amend Arch. It may bee as you say but what had the image committed what offences had the Reliques done or the dignities or the honest and good people which were also robbed and ill intreated Latt I pray you report me the matter euen as it passed seeing you were there present and I will tell you the cause as I thinke why God permitted euerie of those thinges that yee shall trulie recompt vnto me Arch. Great reason yee haue surely in all this that you haue said I shal with a verie good will do that you haue required and heare whatsoeuer you wil say with a much better You are therefore to know that the Emperours Armie hauing left their Artillerie at Sena which was but a small quantitie with the greatest speed that euer was heard of marched euen to Rome and arriued there the fifth of May. Latt But what was the reason the Pope sent not to require some communication Arch. Nay the good Duke of Burbone sent to desire of the Pope that he would send some person with whom he might treat vpon his entrance into Rome But the Pope relying vppon his new league that he had made and the Armie of the leaguers hauing promised to come to his succors hee would not enter into any manner of communication And when the Armie knew this the very next day in the morning they resolued to assault the Citie And such was our ill fortune that euen at the beginning and within the Towne one with an Harquebuze happened to kill the good Duke of Burbone whose death was the cause of much ill Latt Surely it euen breakes my hart to heare of so vnhappy a death Arch. Our sinnes was the cause for if he had liued there had not bin so much mischiefe done Latt Now would to God you had not had those faultes but who euer heard that the sinnes of a Citie should cause their destruction that came to assaile them Arch. In this matter it may bee well said for the Duke of Burbone came not to conquere vs but to defende vs from his owne armie hee came not to sacke vs but to keepe vs that wee should not be sacked It is wee that had most cause to lament his death for himselfe there is no man but rather doth enuy him then pitie him for he lost his life with the greatest honor that euer did man by his death atteined that which a number of great Captains were neuer able to atteine so that the verie memorie of him wil be alwaies most honorable onely one thing greeueth me that is the peril of his soule dying excommunicate Latt And why excommunicate Arch. Because hee entred with an armed hand into the territories of the Church and sought to assaile the holy citie of Rome Latt Do you know what one decree saith to wit that manie are excommunicate by the Pope that are not excommunicate by God neither doth the Pope entend that he should be excommunicat that remaineth within the terrritories of the Church with intention to defend them and in al that he can to prouide that they should not receaue any damage as this Prince did Arch. Yee say truth neuerthelesse his first motion was voluntarie Latt Of this your selfe before verie wel declared the cause for hee was bound to defend the kingdome of Naples beeing by the Emperor made his lieftenant generall for all Italie neither went he to possesse the landes of the Church but to prohibite the Pope that he should not possesse the landes territories of the Emperour and to bring him to some vnitie and concord with his Maiestie Arch. Well let that be so but to returne to our purpose The Emperors armie was so desirous to enter Rome some to robbe and spoile others for the extreame hatred they bare to that court of Rome and some both for the one and the other cause that the Spaniards and Italians on the one side by scale And the Almanes on the other side by Pickaxes breaking downe the wall entred by the Burge on which side stands as you know the Church of Saint Peeter and the holy Pallace Latt Yea and a great manie of verie good houses of Cardinals Of one thing I verie much maruell that they within hauing Artillerie and those without hauing none how it was possible for them so easily to enter without the slaughter of an hundred onely of themselues But of you how many were slaine Arch. Sir you know how vncerteine reportes are alwaies in such like matters Some say Sixe thousand men but in truth there died not vpon the entrie aboue four thousand for imediatly they retired themselues into the Cittie and I tell you truth I should haue deemed this a verie great miracle if afterwarde I had not seene the same souldiers haue done that they did wherby I cannot beleeue that God would do so great a miracle for them Latt You are much deceaued for God did not this miracle for them but to punish and correct you Arch. Therein I beleeue you say the verie truth Latt I woonder after their Generall was slaine that they were not dismaied as commonly men are and so did not leaue the fight Arch. So was it surely but the death of this Generall inflamed them more and encreased their desire to enter the citie with greater furie then before Latt Yee tell mee woonders Arch. Surely so it was and this good duke of Burbone was so beleeued of all that euerie man desired himselfe to die or to reuenge the death of him Latt And therefore it was he me thinks that was cause of all that crueltie Arch. It is most likely to be so Lat. Oh mighty God how meruelous art thou in al thy works in each perticular how wonderfully discouerest thou thy power thou determinest that this good Duke should bee killed to the end that with the more rigor thy iustice should bee executed but let vs see where was the Pope all this while Arch. Euen in his owne Pallace and so carlesse that it was a woonder hee was not taken but seeing in how bad tearmes matters stood hee retired himselfe to the Castle of Saint Angelo with 13. Cardinals and other Bishops and principall persons which staied with him And presently the Ennemies entred and spoiled and sacked all that was in the Pallace and the like did they in
they had taken the Gold and Siluer what did they with the bones Arch. The Almanes threw them downe some in the Church yard some in the holy Field others drew them to the howses of the Prince of Orenge and other Captaines and the Spaniards as the people most religious drew them all to the house of Iohn de Vrbina Latt What so dispoiled Arch. See what you doubt I my selfe saw one basketfull in the house of the same Iohn de Vrbina Latt And do you take this for the most hainous Arch. This is cleere Latt But come hether is not one bodie liuing woorth an hundred dead Arch. Yes Latt Then much more grieuous was the death of those 4. thousand men which you speak of then the sacke of these Reliques Arch. And why so Latt Because the Reliques are dead bodies and the men were liuing and your selfe haue alreadie acknowledged that one such is woorth an hundred of the other Arch. You say true but these were the bodies of holie men and so were not the other Latt So much the woorse for the soules of these saints feele not the bad handling of their bodies they being now in blisse but these wicked ones dying in sinne goe to hell and so perish both Soule and bodie Archb. It is as you say but neuerthelesse it is an horrible thing that in our daies we should see such a bolde and outragious action Latt Surely so it is and yet is it not without cause that God hath suffered it for the deceipts were great that they vsed with these Reliques to beguile the simple people and to get their money from them for yee haue many Reliques that they will shew you in two or three seuerall places as if you goe to Dura in Almanie they will there shewe you the head of Saint Anne the mother of our Ladye and the very same they will shew you also at Lyons in Fraunce So that manifest it is that one or both are false vnlesse they would haue vs beleeue also that our Ladie had two mothers or Saint Anne two heads And one or bothe these being counterfait is it not a great wickednesse thus to deceiue the people and to worship a dead carkasse that perhaps was of some theefe hanged But tell me which thinke you to be the greatest inconuenience either that we should want the body of Saint Anne or that vnder pretence of that relique they should make you worship the carkasse of some common woman Arch. Surely I had rather there should neither be that relique nor any other then that they should make me worship a Sinner insteed of a Saint Latt Nay would you not rather that these bodies of Saint Anne at Dura and Lyons were put in a Sepulture and neuer shewed then that so many people should be abused by them Arch. Yes surely Latt And of this sort yee had an infinite number of Reliques in the world and little should be our losse if we had none of them at all and would to God the inconueniences were so remedied The foreskin of our Sauiour cut off in circumcision I haue seene in Rome and in Burgos and the very same they will shew you also at our Ladies Church in Antwerpe Likewise the head of Saint Iohn Baptist yee may see both in Rome and at Amians in Fraunce But the Apostles if we will count them albeit there were indeed but twelue and one of them not to be found and an other in the Indians yet shall we find aboue 24. of them in our part of the world The Nayles of the crosse Eusebius writes were three and one of them Saint Hellen the mother of the Emperour Constantine threw into the Adriatike sea to asswage a tempest an other she caused to be cast into an helmet for her Sonne and of the third she caused a bridle to be made for her horse and yet haue you in Rome one and an other in Millaine and an other in Coloine and an other in Paris and an other in Lyons and I wot not how many elsewhere Then for the crosse if all the peeces which they shew thereof through Christendome were gathered together yee should haue wood inough to lade a Charects And of the teeth that Christ changed when he was a Child euen in Fraunce alone ye haue at least fiue hundred Then of the milke of our Lady of the heyre of Marie Magdelen and the teeth of Saint Christopher there are reliques innumerable And then euen of the vncertentie of these things it is a great shame to see and heare what themselues giue out to the people My selfe last day in a very auncient Abbey was shewed a table of their Reliques and there amongst other things it named a peece of the Riuer of Cedron I demaunded whether it were of the water or of the Stones of the Riuer they tould mee I must not iest at their Reliques an other was of the earth wherevpon the Angel did appeare to the Shepheards but I durst not aske them what they ment thereby If I should tell you of a number of their rediculous and impious things which they will tell they haue As of the wing of Saint Gabriell of the penitence of Mary Magdalen the breath of the Mule and Oxe of the shadow of the staffe of Saint Iames of the doublet of the Trinitie a number of other things like to these It were inough to make vs burst with laughing Onely I will tell you how within these fewe dayes in a collegiall Church they shewed me a ribbe of the holye Sauiour whether they haue anye other sauiour then Iesus Christe or whether he left any ribbe heere behind them let them looke Arch. These things indeed as you say are rather to be laught at then lamented Latt You haue reason and therefore I come to the other things which be vncertaine yea and if they were certaine yet are they stumbling blocks to make a man commit Idolatrie for they cause vs to hold them in so great reuerence as euen in Aquisgrane albeit they haue no other relique but a paire of olde breeches which they say were S. Iosephs which they shew not but euery fiue yeeres once there goeth thether an infinit number of people to behold them as a thing diuine and of these matters we make so great accoumpt as if in one Church on the one side there stande in a shrine of Gold the slippers of saint Christopher and on the other side the holy Sacrament the people will rather choose to go say their praiers before the slippers of S. Christopher then before the sacrament and this being so great a wickednesse they doe not onely not reprooue it but most willingly admit and allow it in respect of the great profit they gather by it and the fine deuises they haue inuented for it Let vs see then which were the greater inconuenience either to haue no reliques at all in the world or to haue men thus abused by them Arch. I cannot tell neither would
Iames and S. George In liew of Neptune S. Elmas In liew of Bacchus S. Martine Insteed of Aeolus S. Barbola in liew of Venus Magedelena The charge of Esculapius we haue parted among many S. Cosme and S. Daman haue charge of common disceases S. Roque and S. Sebastian of the pestilence S. Lucie of the eyes S. Polonya of the teeth S. Aquida the Dugges and of the other side S. Antony and S. Aloy of Beasts S. Simon Iudas of false witnesses and S. Blas of those that neese I knowe not to what end these inuentions serue and this distribution of offices but to make vs appeare altogether Paynims to abandon the loue and trust which in Christ alone we ought to repose tormoiling our selues in seeking such helpe of others as he alone is able to giue vs and thereof it also commeth that some thinke because they recite a heape of Psalmes or a flocke of Rosarys others because they weare the habit of a Merced Others because they eate no flesh on wensdaies others because they are cloathed in Blew or yellow that thereby they want nothing of perfect Christians reteining neuerthelesse their enuie still their ranckor their auarice and their ambition and other vices as entirely as if they had neuer heard what it is to a Christian Arch. And whence proceeds this as you thinke Latt Naye enter me not into this Laborinth more perrilous I thinke then that of Creta let that alone for an other daye and tell me if in your opinion I haue accomplished as much as at the beginning I promised Arch. I say you haue performed it so fully that I hould all well emploied that I haue lost in Rome and all the troubles and trauailes I haue susteined in this iourney seeing I haue thereby gained such a day as this wherein me thinkes I haue shaken off from my selfe a pestiferous cloude of abhominable blindnesse and recouered the sight of the eyes of my vnderstanding which I had lost euer since I was borne Latt Seeing then you knowe this giue thankes vnto God and endeuour your selfe not to bee vngratefull for the same and considering you remaine satisfied of all doone there it were reason you did also recount vnto me that which passed at Rome vntill your departure Arch. That shall I doe with a verye good will you are to vnderstand that after the Armie entred into Rome they placed a Guarde on the Castell that none should passe out nor in and the Pope knowing the euident perrill he stood in and the small regarde those Souldiers had of him he determined to take some composition with the Emperours Captaines and therefore sent to parle with Iohn Bartlemew de Gateuera Regent of Naples and gaue him certaine conditions wherevpon he was contented to render himselfe to the end that on his parte he might offer them to the Captaines of the armie and although that in going too to procure this agreement he were shot throuh the Arme out of the Castell with an Harquebuze yet before the end of fiue dayes after the armie entred Rome the capitulation was concluded and signed on either parte Neuerthelesse in this meane time the Pope receiuing news how the armie of the legars came to aide him he would not haue that agreement executed Latt Now surely this me thinks was one of the most wicked things of all ye haue yet told me had not poore Rome already suffered enough for his sake but that he must endeuour vtterlye to destroye it If the Armie of the Legars should come it was to succour him it was cleere they must fight with our Army and thereby great slaughter must ensue on either side if then ours did vanquish the Pope and his partie should fall into greater perill but if these did conquere them must Rome be new sacked why then had it not beene better to haue taken any accord rather then hauing before seene so great mischiefe to be yet the cause of many more murders of people and of a new destruction Arch. Surely you haue great reason and much lesse inconueniences had it been to haue accepted any conclution then the damage that must haue ensued by he succour of the Leagers But so soone as the Emperours Armie knew of this they presentlye marched out of the Towne into the field with resolution to fight But the Legars durst not come of the Island where they had remained certaine dayes and the Castell still helde out hoping on that succour or at least that some discord might fall out in the Emperours Armie the Generall being dead But they ceased not all this while to make their Mines and trenches to winne the Castell yea albeit the Prince of Orange that then remained the cheefe commaunder were also hurt with a shot Then came Cardinall Collona with the Lords Vespasian and Ascaino Collonna and they did remedie some parte of the euils that were committed There came also the Viceroy of Naples and Don Hugo di Moncada and the Marquesse of Guasto and the Lord of Alorcan and many other commaunders and Knights with the Souldiers of the kingdome of Naples And although in the meane time there ceased not shooting from the Castell yet in the end the Pope vnderstanding that the Legars armye returned and that there was no hope to bee succoured from them hee accorded for to render vp the Castell into the Emperour his hands with these conditions that all the people within the Castell should goe freelye whether they woulde not taking anye thing that was within the Castell And for ransome of theyr persons and goods the Pope promised to giue 14. hundred thousand Duccats to pay the Souldiers Latt And howe so was it not inoughe that they had robbed before Arch. Yes sure it was enough but that mought not be reckoned any part of their paye And for securitie heereof the Pope gaue them in pledge that good Creature Iohn Marte Gibberto Bishop of Verona with three other Bishops and Iacob Salimato with other two Merchants of Florence And besides all this consented to leaue in the Emperours power till such time as they might knowe what his Maiestie would commaund the Castell Angelo and Ostia and Ciuita Vechia with the hauen and promised also to deliuer the Citties of Parma and Placentia and Modena And his Holinesse with the 13. Cardinals that were in the Castell went to the kingdom of Naples euen from thence to go see the Emperour Latt Surelye this was a good meane to doe some good in Christendome Arch. So was it but to tell you the trueth albeit they desired it should bee so reported because they thought it ill to hold the Pope and Colledge of Cardinals against their will they sayd it was their desire but in Conclusion they were gentill Prisoners Latt What say you then that himselfe desired not to goe to Naples Arch. Yes but all this was but to make a vertue of necessitie for seeing he sought to stay so many daies in hope of succour from
THE SACKE of Roome Exsequuted by the Emperour Charles armie euen at the Natiuitie of this Spanish Kinge Philip. NOTABLIE DESCRIBED IN A Spanish Dialogue with all the Horrible accidents of this Sacke and abhominable sinnes superstitions diseases of that Cittie which prouoked these iust iudgements of God Translated latelie into the English tounge neuer fitter to bee read nor deeplier considered then euen now at this present time LONDON Printed by Abell Ieffes for Roger Ward 1590. The Translator of this Spanish Dialogue to his Honest louing learned Friend A. V. HAuing in some publique imploimēts not long since so ouertoyled my selfe as I found my liberty of returne to my former delectable studies and recreations a very Paradize in respect of the Hel of Enuy and Mallice wherein I had beene long iniuriouslie with many stormes turmoiled among other histories and pleasant discourses that at idlest times I read for recreation this Spanish Dialogue receiued from you so pleased me as partlie for exercise of that toong but chieflie for the singular good liking I had of the matter and to passe ouer some melancolye conceipts wherinto the ingratitude of some persons at whose handes I had but to well deserued had throwne me I began to translate the same into English following as nigh as I could the verie Spanish letter sauing in such phrases as in our toong haue neyther grace nor sence The Treatise surelie is such as being read of our nation could not but worke singular good effects euen in our most obstinate moderne peruerse Papists seeing it so palpablie reuealeth the horrible errors and abuses of that their corrupted Romane religion or rather putrified superstition most vniustlie by them misnamed Catholike or Apostolicall and that by a couple of their owne Spanish partie notsomuch by scriptures sacred where vnto they generally beare so small reuerence as by euident demonstrations such inuincible reasons as were able to reduce very Heathens and Paynims to a better sence and the Method and stile such as if I could deliuer it in English with that grace it hath in the Spanish were no lesse delectable then profitable and not vnfit for other due respects to be printed and published euen in this our time that as euen at the natiuitie of this aspiring Philip King of Spaine their cheefe Champian Almightie God miraculouslie stirred vp a little armie of their owne religion iustlie to chastice the hatefull pride of that Babilonicall Sea when her treacherie was not growne to that heigth of hellish wickednesse it hath since aspired So the memorie thereof reuiued by the due consideration of euery perticuler accident cause and circumstance so wittily discussed and liuely represented in this discourse conferred with the horrible treasons and villanies in this age before our eyes committed by that Sea euer sithence hatching continually new rebellions of subiects murthers of annointed Kings and Princes Massacres of Christian people destruction and subuersion of kingdomes common-weales tending finallie to the vtter dispeopling desolation of all Christendome being mounted euen to the heigth of her impietie and ripe for ruine may nowe likewise animate stir vp againe some noble spirits of our time before or at the death of the same Phillip their chiefe Abbettour Instat Climactericus eius babilonica Clades and mainteiner to attempt and atchieue the like or a more glorious godly honourable enterprise causing all men of right sence no lesse to abhorre these diuelish practises and practisers then their damnable wickednesse indeed deserues the which my traduction now finished I recommend to your correction and disposition and so leaue you to your Theologicall or Metaphysicall muses and mercifull protection of the Almightie The Authors preface to the Reader SO great is the blindnesse wherein for the most part the world is now drowned that I maruell not at the false iudgements by the common people conceiued of this late accident of Rome for as they suppose Religion to consist onelie in these externall things so seeing them so badlie handled they thinke the faith to be vtterlie ouerthrowne and in truthe as I cannot but commend the holy zeale wherewith the common sorte are thereto mooued so can I not allowe of their silence whose dutie were to reduce them from that error Seeing then on the one part how preiudiciall it should be first to the glory of God then to the saluation of his people and also to the honour of this most Christian king and Emperour whome God hath giuen vnto vs if these matters should remaine thus cloaked I haue attempted rather led therevnto by simplicitie and hartie loue then by foolish arrogancie to accomplish with this small seruice these three principall things wherevnto men are bound I was not ignorant that the matter was much more high and difficile then the measure of my forces and yet I knowe aswell that where there is a good intention Iesu Christ dooth lighten the vnderstanding and supplie with his grace the defect of our forces and knowledge attained by humaine wit My thought also I did see represented before mee the false iudgements that superstitious Pharizes are like to conceaue of this matter wherefore let them knowe that I write not for them nor to them but to the true Christians faithfull louers of Christ Iesu Aswell did I also see the peruerse contrarieties of the common sorte the which are so setled on things visible as they do almost make a iest of the things inuisible Remembring therfore that I wrote not to Gentiles but vnto Christians whose perfection is to withdraw it selfe from things visible to loue the inuisible I remembred also that I wrote not vnto brute people but vnto Spaniards whose wits there is nothing so difficult but they are able to attaine and seeing my desires are no others then my words expresse I easilie perswade my selfe that I shall attaine of all that are discreete and not counterfeit Christians if anie default be found in this dialogue to interpreat the same in the best sence and impute the blame to my ignorance and not presume to beleeue that mallice hath any parte therein since in all I submit my selfe to the correction and iudgement of the holy Churche the which I acknowledge for the mother of the Disciples of the trueth The first part of the Sacke of Rome The Argument A yong knight of the Emperours Court named Lattantio met in the market place of Valedolid with an Archdeacon that came from Rome in a Souldiers habit entring into S. Frauncis Church had communication concerning matters chaunced at Rome In the first part Lattantio shewed the Archdeacon how the Emperour was in no fault for that matter And in the second how God permitted all that was done for the good of Christendome Lattantio GOod Lord is not this the Archdeacon of Viso the greatest friend I had in Rome a strange matter it seemes to be he though not by his apparell it may bee some brother of his I
ill enformed and in my iudgement it is not reason but passion for that you haue lost that causeth you to vtter the same which you haue spoken I wil not speake passionately as you haue done for so should we spend speech without any Frute But without affectionate speeches I hope trusting in your discretiō good iudgement that before you part from me you shall plainlie vnderstand how much you haue bin deceaued in all that you haue yet saied onely I request you to be attentiue and not to forbeare to replie when you see cause to the end you may not rest in any doubt Arch. Say what you wil but I wil hold you for a greater Orator then Tullius if you be able to defend this cause Latt Nay I am content you shal accompt me the veriest idiot that is in the whole world if I defend it not and prooue my opinion to you with most cleere and euidēt reasons And the first thing I will prooue shall bee how the Emperoure was in no fauit for that which happened at Rome And secondly how all that happened ther came to passe by the manifest iust iudgement of God to correct and chastice that Citie wherein to the great slaunder of Christian Religion raigned al those vices that the wickednes of man could inuent and with that correction to awake the christian people to the end that those euils being remedied we might open our eies and liue like Christians seeing wee glorie so much in that name Arch. A great enterprise you haue taken in hand but how you wil goe through with it I see not Latt Concerning the first I must protest vnto you that no one thing of that which hereafter shal be said is by mee spoken in preiudice of the dignitie or person of the Pope For it is great reason that his dignitie be reuerenced of all men and touching his owne person surely I can speake no ill if I would Besides that it is well knowen that all which hee hath done hath not passed by his owne meanes but by meanes of the lewdnesse of some persons that he keepes about him And to the end that we the better vnderstād one another seeing this difference is betweene the Pope and the Emperour I pray you first declare vnto me what office that of the Popes is and likewise what is the office of the Emperour and to what ende or purpose these Dignities were first established Arch. It seemeth vnto me that the office or dutie of the Emperour is to defende his Subiectes and to maintaine them in great Peace and Iustice fauouring the good and chastising the ill Latt You say well but what is then that of the Pope Arch. That is more hard to declare for if wee behold the time of S. Peter it is one and in these daies another Latt But when I demaunde of you to what ende these dignities were ordeined it is ment that you should declare vnto mee their intention that did ordaine them Arch. Surely it seemes vnto mee it was ordeined to th ende this high Bishop should take on him the Aucthoritie to expounde the holie scriptures and to the end hee should enstruct the people in Christian doctrine not onely with woords but also with example of life and to the ende he should with teares and praiers make supplication continuallie vnto God for his Christian people and to take on him the supreame charge and power to absolue such as had sinned were desirous to conuert themselues to pronounce damnation against such as in their wicked liues remaine obstinate And to the ende that with continuall carefull endeuour hee should procure the maintenance of the Christian people in great peace and concord and to the end wee should haue here on earth such a one as should truelie and liuely represent vnto vs the life and holie custome of Iesus Christ our Redemer because the hartes of men are much more allured with workes then with words This is as much as I can gather out of the holie Scriptures if you haue anie thing else say it Latt This shall suffice at this present and see that you forget it not for we shall haue need thereof hereafter in his due time Arch. No I will not Latt Then if I shew you plainlie that because the Emperour hath done that which your selfe haue auerred to be his dutie And because the Pope hath refused to do that which on his part ought to haue bin done This distruction of Rome hath followed In whom will you then lay the fault Arch. If you could do this which I cannot beleeue then is it plaine to be the Popes fault Latt Then I pray you tel me your selfe seeing you say that the Pope was instituted to the ende hee should imitate Iesus Christ what do you think that Iesus Christ would rather maintaine his people in peace or to stir them vp and tormoile them in warres Arch. This is cleere that the Aucthor of Peace doth not detest any thing more then warre Latt Then let vs see how shall he bee the Imitator of Christ Iesu that stirred vp warres and dissolued peace Arch. Such an one should bee farre off from Imitation of Christ but to what end aske you mee this Latt I demaund it for this purpose that seeing the Emperor defending his Subiects as he is bound the Pope tooke armes against him and dissolued the peace and raised a new warre in Christendome neither the Emperour was in fault for the euils that succeeded seeing he did that which was his office and dutie Neither can the Pope be excused of the fault seeing hee did that he ought not haue doone in breaking the peace and raising a new warre in Christendome Arch. What peace did the Pope dissolue or what warre did he raise vp in Christendome Latt He dissolued the peace that the Emperour had made with the French king and hath stirred vp the warre which wee still haue whereby through the iust iudgement of God the mischeefe came vpon him which he hath receiued Arch. Oh Sir you make your account well but where haue you learned that the pope stirred vp the warre with the Emperour and that hee dissolued the peace made with the Frenche King Latt Because immediatly so soone as the French King was deliuered out of Prison he sent him a writte wherein he did absolue him of the othe which he had made vnto the Emperour to the end he should not be bound to accomplish that which hee had promised whereby more freelye hee might make warre vpon him Arch. But how knowe you this you speake as though you had bin of the Popes secret Councell Latt It is knowne by manie meanes but not to loose time looke vpon the beginning of the league that the Pope made with the Frenche king and you shall plainelie see that the Pope was the aduancer of it and seeing that this is so certaine a truth that euen the Pope himselfe confesseth it dooth it seeme vnto you
would haue mainteined frendship with the Emperour what should his Maiestie haue needed to haue kept an armie in Italie seeing he had so lately giuen commaundement to discharge it but when he vnderstood of the league made against him he was then constrained to continue it if the Pope pretended nothing but the libertie restitution of the Duke of Millane and to free that state of the vexations of the Emperours Army and to assure the Church landes Why did hee not embrace the Emperours friendship by the which all might haue bin remedied seeing the same was also desired at his hands if the Pope had desired no more then you speake of what fault had the kingdome of Naples committed that they should deuide it among them what had the cities of Genua and Sena committed that the one by sea and the other by land should be besieged he would pretend to remedy the extorsions and spoils of the armie in Lumbardie and yet indeed not onely encreased them there but gaue occasion to make them far greatter through all Italie yea euen throughout all Christendome Read the league made between the Pope the K. of France the Venetians the Florentines and there shal you see euen that which the Pope sought what had the Emperour done vnto him why hee should take Armes against him Arch. Did I not tell you that the Pope did not take Armes against the Emperor but onely against his vnbrideled Armie Latt So that this war then was onely against the Armie Arch. No otherwise Lat. Why then if the war were vpon the Armie the Armie haue reuenged it self wherfore lay you the fault in the Emperor Arch. Because the Emperor did sustein them sent them new supplie wherwith they might be able to do that they haue done Latt Did not your selfe say that the Emperors office dutie was to defend his Subiects and to do iustice If the Pope then would misuse them and seeke to possesse his kingdoms and seignories and to hinder him from doing Iustice vppon the Duke of Millan as he was bound of force hee was constrained to maintein encrease his army to be able to defend and relieue them or els in leauing to do so he should haue left to be a good Emperor Arch. In this you haue reason but I pray you tell mee do you thinke it was wel done of the Emperor to send Don Hugo and the Colloneses to make that attempt on Rome Latt The Emperor neuer did it Arch. What did not the Emperour giue commaundement that Don Hugo and the Collonesi together should iointly enter Rome and apprehend the Pope Latt No he did it not but if hee had done it do you thinke it had bin ill done Arch. Oh my God And would you take vppon you to defend that too Latt Yea surely and tel me I pray you if your selfe had a Father that had so far lost his wits and senses that with his owne hands would goe about to kill and teare his owne children what would you do Arch. Hauing no other remedie I would either shut him vp or bind his hands till he returned to his wits againe Latt And should you not thinke that for your brothers sake also it were your dutie and charge so to do Arch. Yes surely it is plaine I ought to take care and charge also of them Latt Then tell mee the Pope is hee not a spiritual Father of all Christians Arch. Yea. La. Then if he with wars go about to destroy his owne Children do you not thinke it shal be a good merciful deed aswel towards him as also towardes his Children to endeuor to take away from him the power to do this harme you cannot denie me this Arc. Wel but al this while see you not how great damage dishonor done to Iesus Christ to handle in this maner his Vickar Latt Nay rather there is done vnto him great seruice by auoiding this ill that his Vickar through the bad councel that he kepes about him should not be the cause of the destructiō of such a multitude of people for whom Iesus Christ died aswel as for him and belieue me euen the Pope himselfe when laying aside his passions he shal com to a right knowledge of the truth will be excedingly wel pleased with it that hath taken away from him that meanes wherby he might otherwise haue done so great an harme if not I pray you tell me if your selfe which God forbid should be so far out of your wits as that with your own teeth you should bite and teare your owne flesh and members of your own body would you not be singular wel pleased with him hold your self much bound vnto him that should hold and stay you till you came to your wits againe Arch. This is cleere Lat. Then behold how all wee Christians are members of Iesus Christ and haue for our head the same Iesus Christ Arch. You say truth Latt Then if this his Vickar by the bad councell he hath about him be the occasion of the perdition and murder of his own proper members which are the Christians shall he not bee singularly well pleased with him that shall hinder and let him from doing so great an euill Arch. Without doubt you say the truth but euery man cannot attaine this vnderstanding nor can iudge a right farther then they can see and therefore Princes should be very wary what they do Latt Much more are the Princes bound vnto God then vnto men more regard should they haue of the iudgement of wise men then of fools It were a goodly matter that a Prince should leaue to do the dutie which he oweth for the seruice of God and welfare of his countrie for feare of that which the blinde multitude should iudge or speake Let a Prince do that he ought and let the multitude prate what they list for so they iudged of Dauid because he daunced before the Arke of the Testament So they iudged of Iesus Christ because he died vppon the Crosse when they said he saued others but could not saue himself euen so they iudged of the Apostles because they preached Christ Iesus euen so they iudge in these daies of those which endeuor to become true Christians indeed dispising the vanity of this world and follow the right path of the truth And who is there that can escape the false iudgements of the common people Rather wee should thinke that verie good which of the multitude is condemned for bad and contrariwise But wil you know the truth Mallice and craft they call industrie Auarice and Ambicion they cal Magnanimitie the slaunderous Backbiter a good Companion a vaine dissembling Liar they term a gallant Courtier the subtle deceauer they call a wise man and contrariwise a good and vertuous man is called simple If any man in christian humility make smal accompt of this Worldes vanitie they say he is become a foole Such a one as for Gods sake distributes his goods
of Rome to be destroied the which bee it good or bee it bad in conclusion it is the head of Christendome he ought to haue had an other manner of regarde therevnto Latt I haue already plainely shewed you that this was not doone neither by the commaundement nor by the will of the Emperour and further that your selues began to make the warre when there was a truce and notwithstanding the Emperour ratified the peace so soone as it was presented Arch. But why should he keepe in Italie such wicked people as like rauenous Woolues should come to destroie that holye Cittie Latt If you your selues would haue bin contented to haue liued in peace not haue made war vpon the Emperor when he did nothing against you there had beene indeed no cause why he should haue mainteined or sent any such people into Italie would you haue it lawfull for your selues to make warres vpon vs and not lawfull for vs to defend our selues This were in deed a gentle manner of liuing Arch. Well let it be lawfull for you in Gods name but yet not with Infidels and Heretikes Latt Surely you speake very badlie heerein for as concerning the Almanes you cannot be certaine that they are Lutherans neither is it likely or credible considering they were sent by King Ferdinando his brother that dooth persequute the Lutherans But you your selfe haue receiued into your Armie Lutherans that were fled out of Almany and with them haue you made warres vpon the Emperour And as concerning the Spaniards and Italians which you call Infidels if your meaning be to call wicked liuing Infidilitie Who are then more Infidels then your selues for where may a man finde more vices yea or so many or so publique or so free of punishment as in your court of Rome or who euer committed so great and abhominable cruelties as that Armie of the Pope in the territories of the Colonesi if those of the Emperors bee Infidels for liuing so ill why are not those of yours Infidels that are much worse If it be lawfull for you to make warres with people that you your selues repute Infidels why shall it not be lawful for vs to defend our selues with a people that we take not to be Infidels what a mockerie is this That which you doe against the Emperour you do it not against him but against his Armie but that the Armie dooth against you is not doone by the Armie but by the Emperour Arch. Well let vs say the Army did it without commaundement without consent and against the will of the Emperour And that his Maiestie was in no faulte let vs then see when it was doone whye hath hee not punished the offendours and ill dooers Latt Because he knoweth it to be a thing rather diuine then humane And because he is accustomed rather to do good for ill then ill for good And a gentill toye it were for him to chastice and punishe those that venter their liues for him and in his seruice Arch. Well then seeing ye will not chastice and punish them yet why would ye be any longer serued with such a people as had committed so horrible and abhominable outrage Latt For two respects first to auoid the mischiefe they would haue done being disbanded or cashed and also to resist the flames that your selues had kindled For a mockerie had it beene at that time when the French were marching into Italie for the Emperour to cash or dissolue his Armie Arch. I cannot well tell what to replie and surely in this you haue verie fullie perfourmed your promise and in this I must confesse I was much abused But now I would desire you to open vnto mee the causes why God hath permitted the euilles which haue bin done in Rome seeing you say it hath bene for the great good of Christendome Latt Seeing in the first you rest satisfyed I doubt not by Gods helpe but to leaue you much better contented in the second but seeing it now late wee will leaue that part for after dinner because I meane now to deteine you for my guest Arch. It shal bee sir as you commaund for hether we may afterwardes returne againe The second part Lattantio TO accomplish now that which I haue promised you hauing alreadie halfe done in performing the first part ye wil not denie me that all the vices al the deceipts that the mallice of Man was able to inuent was not conioined togither in that Cittie which with great reason ye name the holie Citie because it ought so to be Arch. Surely therin you haue great reason and God knoweth what I alwaies thought of that matter and what I felt at hart to see that Citie which in reason ought to be euen the patterne of vertues to all the world to be so full of vices chafferie deceipt and manifest villeinies Such sale made of Offices Benefices Buls Indulgences and Dispensations so shameleslie that in verie trueth it seemed a verie mockerie of the Christian Faith and that the Ministers of the Church tooke no other care but only to inuent means to scrape money The Pope pawned certaine Apostles that he had of Gold and afterwards made an imposition to be leuied by Buls pro redemptione Apostolorum It is straunge they were not ashamed to commit thinges so foule and preiudiciall to their owne dignitie Latt The very same say all they that come thence and the same did I my selfe know when I was there But come you hether If your Sonnes Arch. Ah sir speake courteouslie Latt Pardon mee I remembred not you were a Clarke albeit yee haue manie Clarkes that take no shame to haue Children but this speech I onely vse for an example Arch. Well then speake on Latt If your Sonnes should happen to haue a verie vicious and bad Scholemaister and that you did perceaue that by his vicious and bad manners hee did infect them what would you do Arch. I would manie times admonish him that he should amend but if he would not do it I would vse my aucthoritie ouer him and chastice him gently that for feare of ill he should amend if he would not for the loue of good Latt Then behold heere God is Father to vs all and hath deliuered vs vnto the Pope as vnto our Scholemaister to the end wee should learne of him and of those that are about him to liue like Christians But seeing the vices of that court of Rome were such and so great that they infected these Children of God that wee did not onely not learn of them the doctrine of Christ but rather a manner of life most contrarie God seeing that neither the Prophets the Euangelistes nor such a number of learned Doctors as haue written in times past reprouing vices and praising vertues could moue them that liued wickedly to amend and liue like Christians he sought out new means to draw them to do their duties And besides manie other verie good Maisters and Preachers sent vs in times past hee
Church of stones wee should leaue to honor the Church of God which is our soule I would not that to build an altar we should forbeare to succour a poore bodie or to repaire tables or dead images we should leaue the poore naked which be the liuely images of Iesus Christ neither would I that we should lay so great a foundation on those things which we are not in any dutye bound to doe neither yet that we should giue men to vnderstand that the Lord is serued and pleased with the possession of these things that euery wiseman contemneth and holdeth a praise in himselfe not to esteeme Tell me whye did Iesus Christ contemne all the ritches and wealth of this world Arch. Because we should likewise by his example valew it as nothing Latt Why then do we seeke to present vnto him these things as matters very pretious and gratefull seeing himselfe we know contemned them and would also that we should contemne them and not rather take care to present our mindes and soules pure and cleere from all vices and sinnes this being the most pretious and acceptable offering that we can present Arch. I muse who should teach you so many arguments being yet so young Latt Then behold sir it hath pleased God therefore to suffer these churches to be thus robbed that we might euidently know that he esteemeth as nothing all such things as may be robbed neither yet dooth he esteeme any thing corruptible to the end that heereafter we may rather present vnto him liuing then dead temples And that we should offer vp vnto him hartes and wils before gold and siluer and that we serue him with such things as he commaundeth rather then with such vanitie Arch. Yea tell mee a thing that I neuer heard of but seeing it is so tell mee howe and wherewith wee ought to serue him Latt This is an other matter a part whereof we may conferre an other tune more at our good leisure but nowe I praye you proceed on Arch. Euen as you will but what will you saye that the very temples where God was woont to be serued and honoured were become stables for Horsses what a thing was it to see the verye Church of Saint Peter both on the one side and the other all full of Horses euen to thinke of it it breakes my harte Latt Certainelye it was a thing that no good man could like of and yet many times we see that necessitie causeth things that by the lawe is prohibited and in time of warre these and farre woorse matters are commonly doone whereof they are in fault that are the cause of the warre Arch. This is a gentle excuse Latt And why not and doe you not also thinke that hee that draweth a greater and woorse filthinesse then that into a place more holy then that dooth hee not commit a greater abhomination Arch. This is cleere Latt Then tell mee if you haue read the holy Scripture haue yee not founde in it that God dwelleth not in Temples builded with the handes of men and that euery man is that temple wherein God dwelleth Arch. Yes sometimes Latt Then tell me which should be the greater ill and abhomination to make a stable of those Temples of stone where the Apostle saith God dwelleth not or to make it of our soules which are the true temples of God Arch. This is cleere that of our soules were the woorse but how can that be Latt Demaunde you howe whye what call you a Stable Arch. A place where Beasts rest Latt But what call you Beasts Arch. Brute Beasts without reason Latt And are not vices brute and voide of reason Arch. Yes without doubt and much woorse then brute beasts Latt Thus is it manifest that it is farre greater abhomination to bring vices that are much woorse then brute Beasts into the Soule which is the true Temple where God dwelleth then to bring horses into a Church of stone Arch. Surely I thinke that true Latt Heereby may you now knowe how blinde your vnderstanding was in Rome that meeting daily by the streetes men that manifestly had their soules the stables of vices of that you made no accoumpt and because you sawe in case of necessitie horsses in the Church of Saint Peter you thought it an horrible abhomination and broke your hart to thinke on it And yet your harte was neuer broken to see such multitude of Soules full of such filthie and abhominable sinnes and God by whome they were made and redeemed banished out of them surely your religion is a gentle religion Arch. You haue great reason but yet consider I praye you that which Saint Paule spake that God dwelleth not in Temples made with handes of men was to be vnderstanded of that time wherein he spake it for since and now in our Temples the Sacrament abideth Latt You say truth but haue not you confessed vnto me that vices are woorse then beasts Arch. Yea and so I say still Latt Why then he that bringeth into the Church a heard of vices that are worse then Beasts is hee not worse then he that bringeth into the church a troope of Horsses Arch. It seemes so to me but these beasts are inuisible Latt What will you say that God cannot see mens vices Arch. Yes God can see them but men cannot but these horsses we may all see Latt By this reason ye would make it a lesse abhomination to offend God then men and then yee would excuse the offence committed in appearing before God so burdened with wickednesse because men see it not you aggrauate greatly the putting of Horses into the Church in that time of necessitie because they are visible vnto men But marke sir I pray you God is not offended with the bad sauors wherewith men are offended The Soule wherein vices are rooted that is it wherewith God is offended and therefore hee requireth that this soule bee most cleere of vices and sinnes and many times he hath so commaunded vs. And therefore yee take all things the wrong way ye take great care to keepe neate and cleane the materiall Temples and the true Temple of God which is your soules you keepe it so full of vices and abhominable sinnes that they neither see God nor know what thing he is Arch. Now as God saue me you haue the greatest reason in the world but if you had seene the Souldiers how they carried along the streetes the poore Nunnes taken out of their monasteries and other Virgins taken out of their Fathers houses you would haue had the greatest compassion in the world Latt This is a matter so common among Souldiers and men of warre that albeit in mine opinion it be indeed much more greeuous then all the rest ioyned together we make scarslie any accoumpt of it as if it were not worse to defile a Virgin which is the liuing temple where Iesus Christ dwelleth then a church of stone or wood wherefore the fault heereof must not onely bee laid to
I trouble my head with these profound matters Latt And how profound which thinke you of greatest valew either the soule of some simple bodie or the body of a Saint Arch. This is out of question that a soule is much better then a body Latt Why then what reason haue you in seeking to honor the body of some saints as they say which perhaps notwithstanding is the boddy of some theefe to put in perrill so many soules Arch. You say the trueth and therefore may they very well thereof admonish the ignorant and simple sort Latt Very well and yet euen these that should admonish are many times themselues ignorant And yet besides all this why should you put any one soule in danger without necessitie Let vs see if you would in this Towne goe to our Ladies church of Prado and knew not the waye would you not thinke it a verye great inhumanity if any man would direct you through the Riuer with greate daunger to drowne you therein when you might more safelye and more quickelye haue gone ouer by the Bridge Arch. Yes surely Latt And wherefore then do you seeke after Reliques Arch. Because many times they stir me to deuotion Latt And deuotion to what end desire you Arch. To salue my soule Latt Seeing then you may saue your Soule without perill of damning it woulde you not rather choose the more safe waie Arch. Yes and our confessors also say it is a sinne for vs wittingly to put our selues in danger to sinne Latt They say therein the very truth Arch. But yet what way haue you of greater safetie Latt The same which Christ himselfe taught to loue God aboue all things and to put in him our whole trust Arch. You say the truth But because I cannot do that I go about to doe this other Latt This is a great heresie to say you cannot do it desire at least of God grace to doe it But if you will say you do request it and that God will not doe it you make God a lyar who saith Aske and you shall haue And farther what a blindnesse is this doe you thinke to goe to heauen without fulfilling of the commaundements of God albeit you haue an Arme of a Saint or the peece of the Crosse or the whole Crosse in your house you may be an enemie to the crosse and doe you thinke to saue your selfe by the Crosse Arch. Surely I was deceiued Latt Then behold the common sort haue so much more iust cause to complaine on them that lead them into these and such other like superstitions to put them in danger of their soules then you of him that should guide you through the riuer with danger to drowne you as the soule is more worthie then the bodie Arch. Well but yet the common sort are more easilye by things visible induced and directed to the inuisible Latt You say truely and therefore hath Iesus Christ left vs his holye sacrament of the Altar and hauing this I knowe not wherefore we haue need of any other Arch. And the true reliques indeed would you not haue them kept and garnished with Gold and Siluer Latt No surely Arch. Wherefore Latt Not to giue occasion of such another spoile as this of Rome nor yet to make men thinke that the Saints are pleased to possesse these things that those which are good men do glory to contemne Arch. You say well but doe you not see yet that the Saints may be offended with vs for taking away the Golde and siluer wherein their bones be inclosed and being so offended may doe vs some hurt Latt No rather I thinke they would be verie well pleased to see those thinges taken and imploied on the poore who many times perish for famin not hauing what to eate Arch. That vnderstand not I vnlesse you explaine your meaning better Latt I wil shew you plainly that Saint which whilest hee liued in this world and had need of these goods did neuerthelesse leaue them and empart them to the poore for the loue of Christ Iesu do you not beleeue that much more he would be pleased to haue the same done now after his death when he hath no cause at all to vse them Arch. Yes surely I think so for wee that be no Saintes yet when we die and cannot carrie our goods with vs wee are well pleased to giue them to the poore and to deuide them among Churches and Monasteries Lattan Why then tell mee wherefore should you thinke a Saint should bee greeued to haue that done with his goods now hee is dead which himselfe would haue done if he were aliue Arch. No surely I thinke a Saint would be verie wel pleased to see that done with his goods now he is dead which himselfe would haue done if he were aliue Latt Then you see plainly that the Saintes who while they liued were so wel pleased to distribute their owne goods among the poore would now much more bee pleased to helpe the poore with that siluer and gold which good people haue presented vnto them after they were dead Arch. So God saue me this reason is verie good and I beleeue you say herein also the verie truth and yet surely the common sort would be offended Lattan No on my faith I dare assure you there would bee no offence taken if it were prouided that such superstitious people as regarded more theire Bellye then the Glorie of Christ Iesus shoulde not goe aboute to prouoke them to offence Arch. Surely for this matter I hold my selfe fullie satisfied Lattan Thus you see how Iesus Christ hath suffred that in Rome so greate a Sacke and spoile should bee committed on Reliques to remedie the decâ—iptes that were committed by them Archde Well this I confesse so as you will also declare vnto mee touching the small reuerence vsed towardes the Images what the reason should bee that God would suffer that Latt That I will tell you neither will I denie that it was verie ill done but God hath permitted it not without verie great cause For you may see among the common people yea and euen among many of the principall persons also that they did so muche repose themselues vppon Images and thinges visible that they had no care at all of the inuisible In my Countrey a verie good Man a Deuine going a visitation of a Bishopricke in the behalfe of the Bishoppe founde in one Church an Image of our Ladie which they saide did manie Miracles and was set ouer against an Altar of the Sacrament in comparison whereof all Images in the Worlde are lesse then nothing And yet thereunto might you see them kneeling and knocking of their breastes before that Image of our Ladie The good man when hee saw so great an Ignominie as was thereby done to our Sauiour Iesus Christ conceiued so great a griefe as hee tooke away that Image and brake it into peeces The people so much were mooued with this act that they would haue killed him but GOD